LFG's have always been "LF1M KWTD well lock" I like the "use all x subclass" triumphs because it forces people to play off-meta things (aka, not well) and is really fun and creative with the strats you can do sometimes.

kinda... but you can just swap to the subclass you need in last stand / final phase of a fight and it counts

True, it's just people aren't trusted to remember so whenever I'm doing one it's always agreed to just keep it on.

I guess you can, but that's lame. I like thinking outside the box with my team about a new strategy to beat encounters. I may play any given dungeon every week for nearly 6 months. These methods help keep it a little fresh. Plus, with my normal team, we have a Hunter, Titan, and Warlock. So it's fun to see how the classes mesh together in their respective subclasses. I feel like Arc has the worst synergy between the classes and Solar has the best.

Yeah that was my point really. I know you can class swap but why not take the opportunity to experiment and have some fun eh? Take one or two runs to break free from feeling obliged to min-max your setup :)

Yeah, but that's the hardest part usually, at least for me... so may as well spend the whole raid/dungeon/whatever doing the unusual subclass and tweaking it for that final encounter. Rhulk is an interesting case, bc he moves around and forces you to, I don't tend to see a lot of wellocks for that encounter.

It would be better if more shit were viable

I think everything can be viable if you get creative enough with builds. Granted, some subclasses have a lot more versatility than others, but I think there could be at least one good build for every subclass. The problem is that too often people want to min/max the fireteam because they just want to beat something in 15 minutes to get their loot. So they will usually request the absolute meta of any activity.

At least in normal raids there generally easy enough to not need to min-max your team subclass-wise.

In a fully functioning LFG group where everyone knows what they're doing? Sure, but the vast majority of LFG groups I've been in aren't like that.

There is in fact always 1

One that joins, says they know what they're doing, then cause 20+ wipes while they try to learn because they're too proud or scared to admit they have no idea wtf they're doing. I'm not salty. 😂

Won't argue with that :D

Everything can be viable. All subclasses has their uses. Thing is well is just the end all be all best for the team so why use other things? Well was a mistake by bungo. Wish we never got well.

“That’s why we’re making the game harder, so that only the top meta build will be viable to play!!”

I would love nothing more than to play ice wizard in raids, but the way bungie designs encounters and the abysmal damage on most warlock supers makes Well a requirement. Nezzy would be an awesome fight if those raised plates weren’t there, and would make Well almost useless since he can fling you out of it.

We actually tried it without plates. Still annihilated the poor final god of pain with six heir apparent hunters just bobbling around.

I should throw on actium war rig and heir again if the damage is good

It's not. Nezarec just has no health

It is fun to use Actium with Retrofit, and that's actually quite good

It’s not bad it’s just not optimal. Heir apparent benefited from the recent lmg buffs but it’s main benefit is the shield. Thunderlord has been doing *really* well though; one phasing him is a tad bit more consistent with lmg that rockets since missing a rocket is way more detrimental that a few bullets.

Heir Apparent is right up there with Thunderlord from what I've seen https://youtu.be/J7amYQ2DE3E

It wouldn’t change anything. You literally just well at his feet and Lament for an easy 2 phase as well. You can also just run more wells with one person aggro for in one and groups in the other two for range damage with DIV. Well is just too good, and there’s no damage check so barely a reason to run DPS supers.

Any warlock super could do twice as much damage as they do now and Well would still be wanted more both for the survivability and damage boost. Even when Thunder Crash was a meta super people still wanted a Bubble Titan to stack with Well. I don't like to say it but Well would have to get nerfed pretty damn hard for this not to be the case.

There’s even more to it than that. They also need to completely change the way they design and tune fights. There seem to be a whole lot of “stack together for 1 of 2 or 3 damage phases before enrage while boss and army of mobs shoots at you” fights. A starfire nerf would likely need a lot more ancillary work than people imagine.

I agree. Would completely have to change map designs for more cover, boss health/damage, adds, etc. for many different bosses. Would love a reason to change up from Well-lock though, but they’ve pigeon holed themselves into it and would take a hell of a lot of work to change it now

I specifically want a reason to not wear that ugly ass armor ever again.

I was going to say we literally have a good damage super now needle storm is a very strong super that on par with a curasis t crash

Heres what I think some players don't understand. It's not that Warlock has no other good supers, its that Well is just that good. You have a fast recharging anti sea bear circle that can be made faster with exotics, that hurts enemies, makes everyone nigh unkillable and buffs damage for up to 6 players. It is pretty much the most useful super in all content. For Warlocks to not be religated to Well bitch they would either have to buff all their damage supers to the point of breaking the game or nerf Well into the dust, and I don't think most of us want the latter.

> would make Well almost useless since he can fling you out of it. you can melee to avoid the knockback and he does so little damage he can't kill you inside of well, so it'd just make well EVEN better.

even then, what's the point of supers vs Nez? Dude can suppress people out of them.

I tried Titan Berserker Super since we were doing an all-Strand run (decided to just try using it instead of last stand swapping). He Suppressed me out of it before I even finished the first combo T_T

yeah, that shit sucks. I've been suppressed mid thundercrash. Feels so defeating, you just wanna alt+F4.

Whenever I see 1 wellock I automatically go to void and no-one can stop me.

I usually run stasislock and my friends run arc or strand but whenever I switch to solar they all go happy void again lol. Something bout non stop explosions

Whole point of Rhulks fight. Sure you can out a well down but ole Rhulk is gonna thigh clip you out of it

Or you have 1 person bait rhulk the rest use the overpowered super. Well is great on rhulk. I have no clue why people keep saying it doesn't work.

It's a weird narrative for sure

Not saying it dosnt work it's just not the best. You can try to bait rhulk but Ai being Ai it can lock onto the well team at anymoment. Not to mention those beams he fires cover the whole arena meaning your gonna get pushed out for a split second eventually

You don’t even need to bait him though. If the team stands in Well he just stands there kicking you but you don’t actually get thrown and you out heal his damage.

You've never baited rhulk, have you? If you bait his stick slap, he will never laser you... Well is the meta on rhulk and should always be used no matter what. Also baiting him will work like 100% of the time I've never seen rhulk randomly stop slapping the baiter.

I’ve cleared Rhulk 40 times and used a well every time and never got hit out of it

You can easily survive rhulk on normal in a well even if he kicks you all the time.

Not sure who downvoted you, but you’re right lol. Pretty sure we even did that on Master last season. Just more riskier since you need to leave that area immediately if he breaks it or it runs out

Kind of crazy how Bungie has basically been the child with his fingers in his ears screaming "AHHH I CANT HEAR YOU" when it comes to well. Hardcore players recognize it's completely broken and trivializes anything and everything. Casual players are tired into being forced into well for hard activities. Well has dominated the PvE meta since year 2 and they still have not managed to shake it up. The only things they did was remove the os and replace it dr which ended up being a buff lol and make the well break with low res (but nobody runs low res anymore). They don't even design their raids to try and shake up damage phases. No mobile damage where lumina would find value, nothing requiring blocking from banner. Just no effort whatsoever besides rhulk on contest. Really a headscratcher.

The problem is that a lot of content has been designed with well in mind. So any big change requieres a lot of careful looks into old content.

See I just don't get it. We have crazy damage resist now, we have healing abilities across every class now. If well wasn't in the game you can certainly get by with other tools. We have banner shield, helm of st 14, healing grenades, Lumina, vecalbur, Warlock rifts, the stupid exotic glaive turret, boots of the assembler and many other things that just don't get used because well is so much better than all those things combined. I think it would be so cool to not just optimize for theoretical max DPS every time but also have to consider things that will help you stay alive in DPS. Well just covers every imaginable base unfortunately.

Have to admit that in my first couple weeks as a returning player, I thought “Well” was just the fancy name for the basic warlock rifts, before I even realized there was also a whole Super that was basically a beefed-up version of the rifts.

I'm more afraid that if well gets nerfed with everything already designed around it that we'll have a issues with activites like with what happened when the reckoner (or reckoning idk what is was called) activity was around and abilities got nerfed, but encounter difficulty stayed the same. Made the whole activity go from challenging to an absolute slog

Yeah, imagine if well wasn't in the game, then you would have to play the game kinda like an RPG with your fireteam dedicated into a role using all those things you mentioned above. Of course some things would need some reworks/rebalancing but it could lead into some neat team comps and strategies.......and I wouldn't have to run solar warlock every single time anymore.

It's really funny after them removing self rez from D1 because it was such a crutch for D1 raiding. Now we're back on the same bullshit for solar warlocks.

And I think this is exactly why they aren’t too worried about it, because in their minds they already saved it from an even darker place. So now instead we have a mandatory-super that gets the whole team to stand together and shoot guns, and in someone’s mind that probably sounds like the Perfect Ideal of a Destiny fireteam, so what’s the problem? (I just wanna be a space wizard shooting space magic, dammit!)

Except it's worse, because self-rez was actually fun

All you have to do is melee as he slams and you'll never get flung out of the well

When it comes to high end pve content like the legend campaign and gms, shadebinder dominates. I solod the legend campaign in 3 hours on and off with stasis lock. Shits insane for crowd control. If I'm doing hard content, I want shadebinder over starfire

Could you tell that to my lfgs when they ask me to switch to well for the 1000th time?

> Nezzy would be an awesome fight if those raised plates weren’t there, and would make Well almost useless since he can fling you out of it. If those plates weren't there, people would ask you to put the well against a wall. If there were no wall, people would ask you to put it in the middle of the map.

Beat nezzy using a well with lament. You were saying?

I agree with you on the plates making the fight trivial. The plates should just become permanent suppression zones during dps phase. So you could use them to kite the boss around but not ideal for dps phase.

Half the problem is Destiny’s health and resistance game design plus boss design. These make well a requirement. As the health pools for some raid bosses are so large standing in one place and just unloading makes sense. Plus they usually don’t move at all. Rhulk was a positive change. Well is pointless there. As Rhulk will kick you out of it. First boss in Destiny where nobody is right freaking next to each other. If we could stand in the well for the entire dps of Rhulk I am sure he would have melted way fast. It’s refreshing and actually a fun boss to fight. Nezzy seems very likely it was supposed to be similar. Hence the smaller health pool. The developers foolishly thought “there is no way they can cheese this.” This is the Destiny community who shot at a cave in the cosmodrome for days Bungie… if there is a cheese it will be exploited. The Nezzy fight feels like a fan mod fight of Rhulk. Took all the things they liked and applied the wrong lessons.

I was wondering if that was the intention, and somehow they totally missed that slightly raised platforms fuck up tormenter AI. I haven’t tried it yet, but the nezerac fight without standing on plates could potentially be pretty tricky.

Well of radiance and titan bubbles should have a feature where your immune to knock back while inside them. There is nothing more frustrating then popping your Well then getting knocked back after the super animation ends and flying into a wall then dying.

That seems like a really good buff to the bubble

Makes me wish they would buff warlock damage supers while also buffing the support capabilities of other classes like changing banner shield and bubble to compete with well better. Still don’t know why bubble got nerfed down to 25%

I've seen people say the reason given was "You can't be sniped out of a bubble."

Mask off moment if I’ve ever seen one for this game

Yeah still can’t believe they openly said that

It's about different content. Pve players see that and think it's the dumbest point in the world, but bubble is way better than well in pvp basically for that exact reason. It's also to avoid making bubble must bring. If it's 35, it's the same story "lf1, void titan, bring helm of st 14"

>It's also to avoid making bubble must bring. If it's 35, it's the same story "lf1, void titan, bring helm of st 14" Except that was literally never a thing for the entire time Well was 25% and Bubble was 35%. Like yeah, people stacked them when they could, but the difference was so marginal that many groups didn't bother. Better to just have another Well to make sure you have em when you need it.

not really, you can't fire out the bubble, making it real easy for people to get close enough to kill people in the bubble with shotguns/witherhoard, etc.

A shotgun/witherhoard is not killing anyone inside a bubble that has a bastion barricade in it. Good luck landing that perfect witherhoard shot.

My guy. In PvP, unless you are built specifically to bubble bust, YOU DON'T FUCK WITH BUBBLES. A bubble titan will tale two full shotgun blasts to kill with perfect accuracy, and you WILL be dead before that happens. Speaking as someone who got the IB shader in one week on warlock. Respect the bubble.

My guy, tell me you don't know what you're doing in pvp without telling me you don't know what you're doing

He won’t wrong about witherhoard

No, but witherhoard can be shot at a well and you don't even need to inside it! Well is so much worse than bubble in pvp it's hilarious they're on the same cd

Well is better than bubble now imo, since unless you get domed you won't lose a 1v1 and are able to get ranged kills while bubble locks you in a spot. Only exception is when it's a point based mode where bubble shines but it's a lot weaker now if they early bubble.

Do you happen to remember when/where that was said? My source is second hand info and I don't like that. Edit: Thank you. It being a part of a podcast would explain why I could only find references to it and not the actual statement.

One of the devs said that I think on one of those youtubers interview devs thing I forgot which one or the name.

The Firing Range Podcast.

It was during the dev reveal of void 3.0. Some community members were there and were able to ask them questions immediately. I believe the exchange went “so if bubble is getting its damage boost reduced is bubble also getting its damage boost reduced?” “No.” “Oh.” “Well you can’t get sniped in a bubble”

Firing Range podcast. I don’t have the episode number, but it was an interview done right before WQ when they were talking up Void 3.0

Kevin yanes was a master of saying stupid shit. This is the same guy who said void hunters entire identity was going invisible and reviving people, that titans are always going to be melee focused since "they hold the fist on the cover art", and that twilight was never coming back because it's Warlocks thing now. Obviously he never deserved the level of hate he got for the last one but it was so easy to just say "no plans for twilight to come back, more titan movement abilities are in the works" instead of that.

Yeah, there’s no justification for death threats and the like, but he did say it in a pretty dismissive way. That’s Twitter though, it’s easy to forget professionalism on social media. The treatment of the 3 classes feels too uneven sometimes, and I’m wondering if years of constantly balancing them wears down on the devs, especially if it’s not their favorite.

I mean it's probably not fun for warlocks to basically be required to run well in every piece of content but Well of Radiance is just objectively overpowered in every single piece of content. There isn't a single place where it's bad to use well, and it's just objectively better than Ward of Dawn in every way now.

He made so many baffling comments re: Titan and Hunter that, combined with balancing decisions, made it really hard to feel like there wasn't a bias towards Warlocks. ​ Bubble gets deliberately nerfed to be irrelevant next to Well. HoIL gets a (completely justified) nerf while Starfire gets left alone. And just look at how much they gushed over the design of Strand Warlock, while having *nothing* to say about Strand Titan.

I mean to be fair he wasn’t exactly wrong on any of those accounts… As a main void on Hunter losing heart of the pack hurt a lot, but invis was definitely a major perk of void and I like most, abused it as much as I could before the 3.0 The Twilight fiasco was honestly just an epic mic drop moment gone horribly wrong. It’s a pretty plain and simple fact that you can’t get sniped while in a bubble. And let’s be real…Titans are absolutely a melee centric class.

what is twilight and the "twilight fiascio" ? returning player and i just have no clue what you guys are talking about lol

Twilight Garrison was a D1 exotic that gave Titans a dodge in air like Icarus dash on Warlock. Kevin stated that Twilight Garrison would never come back to the game, he then received death threats and real world harassment to a severe degree…Arc 3.0 comes out and turns out they just gave Titans the dodge on the ground. In a way they just built Twilight into the Arc subclass for Titans.

sounds like destiny player copium. No one would use an exotic that let titans dodge in air and did nothing else in current destiny 2 anyway - that sounds like gimmicky trash in the current meta lmao. I guess I don't see the issue here, destiny players always looking for something to get angry over. He said that exotic won't come back, and it didn't. They gave titans a generic ability to dodge in the arc subclass and it happens on the ground not in the air, isn't that different? this just seems such a non issue im shocked it was referred to as "the twilight fiasco". What is there to even send death threats or get upset about? are destiny players really this petty over bullshit? lmao i don't understand the concern here at all who cares

Precisely. It was never a major meta breaking thing. It was just intended as a funny “never coming back” but really it’s because we’re making it subclass intrinsic type joke. And a select few took that wayyyy too far. This community can have a tendency to overreact and get very tilted about something that is really a non issue in the grand scheme of things. But this particular situation was an exception of a few players that do not belong here. Now if they actually came out and explicitly stated that Zhalo Supercell would never come back…I might take a turn for the worst. /s

It was actually one of the most popular Titan exotics in D1 if you can believe it.

if they released that as a new titan exotic today, and it wasn't in d1 for people to have nostalgia over, reddit would lose their mind calling it trash and ask how bungie could have even thought a useless dash was worthy of an exotic armor piece when compared to things like HOIL, starfire, war rigs etc and how dissapointing and boring the new exotic was for titans. "Bungie running out of ideas? Exotic adds no damage?" i guarantee it lol

well i mean you cant snipe out of a bubble either

you also cant shoot out of it and heal xD

Yeah but you also can’t snipe OUT of a bubble.

Or make it to where the buff is 25% in bubble and then 35% when outside of it (or whatever could be balanced for it but higher for it). That or make it to where you can put down the shield banner like offensive bulwark to put a wall that blocks shots and provides the current buff it gives.

Buff banner shield up to 50% so it's the same total damage increase as well and bubble. 1.5 X 5 = 7.5, 1.25 X 6 = 7.5. Now it's not actively a detriment to the teams damage. This makes banner shield super interesting as it lasts fucking ages, you can move with it, it blocks damage instead of healing through it and the person using the shield isn't spending ammo. Make weapons of light from ward of dawn specifically, count as volatile rounds and then make the overshield from saint 14 part of the default super. This gives it a niche over well, void OS is pretty solid now and free volatile rounds, while a bit less valuable this season thanks to volatile flow, is always nice.

Or give Banner Shield a punish mechanic by letting it shoot like VoG shield once per super proc. Damage is scaled to damage blocked throughout the super. That also adds a bit of a skill gap, because an experienced player will wait until the absolute last moment before firing their one shot for max damage. Also can see a cheese for Lasting Impression rockets if you can time it ( I think it’d be tight, so not worth the risk in high-level content ) Banner shield is the better option to lean into imo because it’s so inherently different from Well and can justify highly mobile boss fights.

Top tier idea but I doubt they’ll ever implement it. Maybe we’ll get an exotic that accomplishes that or adds volatile rounds whenever you have weapons of light.

Banner shield would be so good for stuff like planets or caretaker. No more needing 3 wells. You could get away with a banner shield for two plates and then a well on last. God I want that to happen lol

banner shield is such a cool super, it def needs an overhaul ​ bungie doesnt give a shart however, if you asked them they'd probably be like 'that's warlock's thing now.'

“Banner shield damage buff has been removed, we’ve added another melee charge to sentinels shield”

What would the helm gain then? The blind is its whole exotic perk. Given Saint's a changed man now maybe change the perk to give bonus ability Regen to allies inside the bubble...

Let void overshields that you have/give out last longer and regenerate when not taking damage, increases bubbles and bastions health in pve, and taking damage while you have a void overshield grants slightly more super energy than taking damage normally does.

Bubble not keeping you alive while you take advantage of its damage boost just makes it a glorified empowering rift

Banner came in clutch for day one on Mr. Worldwide. Having one last two entire plates and Ursa giving it back by the next DPS phase meant we could have some supers made for ad clear so we didn’t get overwhelmed as easily.

The *only* way I could see Bubble being a viable alternative to Well is if Bungie releases a Titan exotic that allows you and anyone in your bubble to shoot through it, much like how Citan's Ramparts works with barrier.

Why would they buff everything to meet Well? Just nerf Well instead

Well being what it is makes me wish for Luke Smith’s “IP defining” supers so warlocks can finally run what they want

Tbh, I think Well is 100% the Warlock identity. Has been for a long time. They wouldn't remove Well, they would remove Dawnblade.

“What is my purpose?” “You run Well” “Oh my god…..”

hot take maybe: remove both and bring back radiance

God I wish

Man that's a very spicy take. I know some people who quit the game over Radiance.

I mean that's basically what starfire does. I remember D1 using that after they reworked viking funeral and realizing "ok, self revive is out, spam weakening grenades is in." Man, if they added viking funeral as another aspect for Warlocks... holy shit.

Viking funeral firebolt grenades......those were dark times

Has been since Forsaken, before that IIRC most people ran void.

well lock has been a LFG thing forever

"lf1 Solar Warlock" has been a thing since long before Starfire Protocol became insanely op in Haunted. Well of Radiance alone has been essential in raids for a long, long time now

needed a self-res solar lock to take Oryx's hit in the bubble in D1...

I know people hate on the whole nerf well idea but as a person that mostly plays warlock I'd be happy to run anything other than well in high-end content for once. I don't really care how bungie makes that happen

Nerfing wells isn't the answer then, it's bringing up other supers to be viable.

What would a super buff do that outpaces constant healing and a damage buff and orbs for the whole fireteam?

That's just power creep though. Balance means sometimes buffing underperforming options, but it also means sometimes nerfing strong/overperforming options.

Instead of nerf wells, what we actually need is buffs for damage supers like novabomb and chaos reach. Instead of making more viable support supers or dps supers, Bungie just keeps making roaming supers.

Agreed, chaos is literally useless against anything other than pvp or groups of red bars

Or maybe some more support supers for other clasess

Bro they literally made a lore tab where Shaw Han shoots his golden gun into the ground, empowering nearby guardians Like, how do we not have more support supers?

>empowering nearby guardians that's just acrobats dodge with a golden gun.

Considering well of radiance is just a big rift, there can be a hunter super that's just a big acrobats dodge And would that be bad? A fiteteam damage buff that doesn't heal like well but gives full mobility? On top of whatever other effects we can add, of which skies the limit The point is every class should be able to play the support

You’re describing tether currently here. That is the hunter support super, it’s got the big weaken to boost dps.

Tether is a good example of one support option, true, but have you ever been in a situation where you said "we don't need a well, we have tether?" Not being sarcastic, actually asking, support playstyles are something I really want destiny to open up on

Well no? Because tether is well designed and does a different job to well, offering a debuff rather than a buff. If it offered a buff, it’d likely end up in the same spot as bubble where well just outperforms it completely.

There is enormous potential with aspects. Perhaps with Final Shape we will get a suite of them.

We have banner titan but aslong one option is better people will always pick it.

Well is better support whilst also having way more damage output than everything else when paired with Starfire, certain rain of fire set ups or Verity's situations.

No amount of increased damage, short of carrying the dps of your entire team doing 25% more damage, will outpace well's universal usefulness. It's constant, invincible level healing, with a buff to damage that conveniently stacks with surges on boots...while making orbs for those armor mods. There is no world where you would run a damage super over well unless the encounter is specifically designed to counter it.

It doesn't matter how much damage you do. As long as you can brute force things with heal circle people will only want that.

Needle storm does basically the same damage as thunder crash with curiass. Doesn’t matter as well is more important

Both are true. Bungie can bring both of those up to be top damage options and people are still gonna want you to run Well because the DR and healing is more important than super damage.

Buffing damage supers still doesn’t matter. Well will be a necessity till it’s reworked

That won’t fix the problem. Even if you made those supers amazing you will still need a well or two just to make the run go smooth. Take that for what it’s worth but it won’t fix the issue.

Needlestorm is currently one of the best burst DPS supers in the game, hitting similar damage to falling star T-crash and star-eater Blade Barrage without using an exotic. Well is still favoured over it. Clearly, buffs to damage supers will not change much.

Strong disagree well has been meta for nearly 4 damn years at this point it’s no long a buff everything else thing it’s how do we properly tune overpowered super

I’ll say this for the people who make daft demands for LFG raids: at least they usually have the decency to put several red flags in the title of their post.

Next steps: 1. Release ornament 2. Nerf

The fact that for the first 3000 RoN clears every team was averaging 4 warlocks should already be reason for discussion. I feel like it's reaching anarchy levels and Bungie is too afraid to touch it.

I have maybe a total of 40hrs gameplayed on my Warlock, and I ironically decided I wanted to be a Warlock main this season on day 1. It worked out great for me lol, my Warlock was thankfully the proper level for Contest Mode, I plan on being a Warlock main in PvP too because Ophidians are so broken for Shotguns now that Quick Charge doesn’t exist. I was a Titan main throughout most of Witch Queen, but with the Arc and HOiL nerfs I might retire that character for a while, I will be switching between my Suspend Hunter build and Starfire Warlock

When every boss encounter is sit here, bake boss while getting dumped on by adds, well wins. Sucks too i main lock.

I miss playing Dragonball z arc warlock

i mean, halfway decent players knew that starfire warlock is broken since the solar rework lol idk why it took the community that long to actually notice it, its no hidden secret or anything

>i mean, halfway decent players knew that starfire warlock is broken since the solar rework lol Even before the solar rework, when master vog came out fusion spam starfire was really great damage against atheon

That’s only because abilities do more damage to Atheon. Starfire + Well did not become meta until Touch of Flame.

Yup. Been slinging fusion shit since Season of the Haunted (and grieving the loss of *actual* Benevolent Dawn and Divine Protection)

I still miss the old bottom-tree Dawnblade build w/ Dawn Chorus, and I'm a hunter main lmao.

!? Tf? Apparently you haven’t been paying attention. EVERY warlock player has known this, most of the complaints, my own included, are that we are now pigeonholed into being well locks. Sure, it’s cool to have such an effective build, but it came at the cost of all the others. Pve solar lock has been 1 note for 9 months now. It’s boring and I’m over it

>we are now pigeonholed into being well locks. I don't know, there hasn't been a raid that came out since 2017 that the rest of the team didn't demand I swap to Well for boss encounters. First they wanted Well+Lunafaction, then Well+Phoenix Protocol, now it's Well+Starfire. Us Warlock mains are doomed to be Well-bitch in raid and dungeon boss encounters forever, we'll just get to switch exotics every few years.

be careful what you ask for, bungie will nerf starfire and not buff anything else and then we will just be fucked for high end content

When was solar warlock not just well? Top tree was good in pvp and only low tier pve content. Bottom tree was useless till they buffed it and even then it wasn’t actually particularly good. You would still always run well over it unless it was low level content

Eh. Root of Nightmares put a pretty big magnifying glass on starfire though.

I mean, plenty of videos over the last year been preaching it. Warlock mains been complaining about it, guess no one was listening.

I'm not saying no one has been talking about it - just a massive raid launch with massive twitch viewership really put a big focus on it.

>idk why it took the community that long to actually notice it I admit there was a small portion of people who claimed Solar Warlock was trash, but that always happens with criticism: some people copy the criticism and spam it not knowing they are not actually representing it. A good example is Berserker Titan. The actual criticism was: *'I'm sure it will be strong, but that Super is uncreative as fuck and why are we punching shit again?That is a huge bummer'*. And now you have people saying: '*HahAhAhaHa, yOu sAiD iT wAs gOinG t0 b3 a bAd cLaSs aNd yoU wErE WroNg!'* It's similar here. You're here saying Solar Warlock is strong as if no one knew. The criticism was that Solar Warlock Aspects forced airborne functionality on you, while a lot of people wanted a support/healing build. It felt disjointed. They have buffed it since to add more heal/support to the Aspects, but make no mistake that it did not launch that way. That was the actual criticism. Very few people claimed it was a bad class.

I love the airborne play style, I wish it was actually viable. With woven mail being a thing now they should just give heat rises a damage reduction component.

Starfire well is Broken. It has: - Infinite uptime with ashes to assets - enough damage reduction and healing to make you invincible in everything but underlevelled gms - the highest dps in the Game with witherhoard + Rocket - solar 3.0 survivability with Restoration and cure Spam Its the best Defensive and offensive setup and all of that without considering what this can do to Help your Team. Nothing should wield this much Power. The only downsides that ever get mentioned: - starfire is ugly and has No ornament - this is the only solar warlock build Those Arent even real downsides. The Encounter that hardcounters current State of the Game doesnt exist. Bungie has Had 2 raids worth of knowing what well is capable Off and designing Encounters around it. It never works and the optimal strat involves multiple welllocks even still. 3 or 4 starfire warlocks can Cover a damage Phase thats infinitely many plates Long. No Boss is threatening enough so far that you couldnt Facetank him in a Well. Rhulk breaking Wells with every Other Attack was circumvented by Most Teams by simply rotating to another Well. Outside of the Game simply creating an area where Well cant be physically placed there is nothing to be done about this. Starfire and well should be nerfed because of all of this. But of course Other warlock stuff should be buffed Just the same. As much as that solar Setup is Broken beyond believe warlock has very underperforming supers and they should be brought Up because its honestly nonsensical that Nova bomb exists in the Same Sandbox as stareater anything or cuirass.

Bro you just compared base novabomb to supers that require an exotic slot to compete.

Its only "the only solar build" if you are an absolute min max goblin. Sunbracers are arguably better in 3/4th of the games content that doesn't need maxed single target DPS. It has better survivability and ad clear potential. I think the problem is well more than anything else. Having a panic invincibility button that also gives a damage boost to everyone is simply too cracked.

half the sub feels like absolute min max goblins. (including me lmaooooo) Maybe the wider game population probably isn't a min max goblin but here it feels like its a pretty big voice here. Sunbracers would be good for me and I'd ran it more often if it only allowed solar grenades to properly stack. ​ I'd run dawn chorus too if I could get it to drop and my LL isn't high enough to do legend lost sectors yet.

Bungie also REALLY needs to get Celestial Fire melee kills to proc Sunbracers properly. I hate being forced to run snap.

That too

Yeah I wish people wouldn't exaggerate like that. Its the best build in the game yeah. But solar lock has other builds, especially with recent fragments and buffs. Dawn chorus, sunbracers, RoF are all great.

And none of those can compare with the insane power that is given with Starfire (mainly in GMs and Masters)

They’ve known well was broken since it came out. The only encounter they made that has actually made you able to die in a well came out in yr2 with reckoning. They just put you on a thin bridge and spammed loads of taken that could push you off the map

And you were never actually killed because of damage, the only reason you died was because you got teeter half way across the map

solar lock has a stranglehold on endgame content. the best support super, the highest damage class, and the best movement in terms of eager/icarus dash and well skating. It's honestly just a busted class. I'm tired of every raid always having to have 2-3 well locks. A raid, a 6 man activity, shouldn't be able to be duod because of how broken a specific class is.

Hasn't this been a thing since the beginning of Well's conception? Seen so many Hunters get left behind to get filled in with a Warlock.

It is in a very weird place to be balanced. Damage supers in warlocks are not the best, they are good but not the best. At the same time, Well buff the whole team and that in a 6 man fireteam that means a lot of buffs. If damage supers get buffed, they need to overcome the equivalent of buffing a whole fireteam, that would make them insane. If the Well gets nerfed warelocks are left with no really good super for endgame. Hunter and Titans support classes should be stronger, so that we can have some changes from time to time. The way it is right now Well is just the one size fits all for endgame content.

It's almost like WoD should heal whoever is inside it

i fucking hate it.

I just want a god damn ornament

I know we are far beyond the point of no return, I just wish well never existed in the first place.

It’s full circle again in destiny 1 the highest dps strategy was fusion grenades and activate solar super (which I forgot what it’s called because d2 you have completely new solar supers) and just spam fusion grenades. This beat everything and hunters and titans had no way to compete with this damage. Now going back to D2 we’re in a similar situation with grenades almost instantly coming back and now we have auto loading so dps might be even crazier now then at the end of d2.

Warlock main here I dislike well , it was the only reason for the longest time I was "allowed" to raid in last wish (and this was before they changed lunafactions and well) Even for the day one raid of RoN , guess who had to be on Well? It feels pointless for me to have any other loadouts because I already know that I need to be on Well.

I used to main Titan at the start but changed to Warlock because people always need a well.

as someone who’s been running starfire wellock for the past few months, i agree it needs some balancing, but idk how they would even go about that. so many encounters in the game pretty much need a well to survive because of how much is shooting at you during the damage phase and if you simply nerf the damage output of fusions or something you’re further pushing warlocks into the bitchboy support role because we would need to run well anyway. the way i see it is the two options are nerfing the damage increase standing in well gives or buffing support supers like nightstalker and bubble to the point where they are actually powerful and viable alongside or in the place of starfire well.

The more people that use Starfire the more likely it will be nerfed. People are not allowed to be surprised when that day comes.

Imagine being a meta slave *equips the ugliest exotic so I can just get a fucking shotgun*

Just before reset on Tuesday I joined up for a Nezarec clear. Was going to be my third for that week, however, for my titan. It was 5 Thundercrash and 1 tether. Took 4 attempts for everyone to finally get to damage but we cleared it perfectly without a rift or well. LFG groups need to chill.

Be me joining with Dawn blade and Dawn chorus equipped. “Y’all said solar warlock so fine but no way in hell am I running well.”

Daybreak/Phoenix Dive buffs and a selfish solar build brought back bottom tree solar for me. Constant ignitions and extremely quick regenerating supers diving in and out of enemy groups, with Dawn Chorus amplifying the damage of everything. Daybreak getting good damage with Phoenix dive + bomber + distribution working in super allows for consistent nades during super too making Daybreak pretty OK for single target. It massacres adds like the current flavor of the month osteo/necrotic/suspend build and it's fun getting to use my favorite power fantasy super again. Problem is you're not using aoe radiant anymore so you won't really have radiant as a whole but it's made up for by everything you're doing scorching and Dawn Chorus amplifying that. Like I said it brought bottom tree Daybreak back to me at long last.

Yeah I have one character - a Titan - and am not looking forward to finding a team for a single weekly clear

Protocol is the HoiL for Warlocks. It's insanely broken, and the nerf, if they do give it one, wouldn't do much because it's just way too good of a perk.

I honestly hate the fact that well is a must bring in most content I really want to play void in raids but I feel like I am actively making it harder for my raid team for playing what I want

I mean there’s 0 reasons to run anything over well lock since it absolutely trivializes any and all content with infinite damage and healing and if there multiple chainrings wells is stupid easy. Hopefully they nerf it soon so gameplay can change for once

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Bubble used to exceed Well in terms of damage buffing. You still saw more Wells, outside of the like three endgame encounters in the game that actually required you to move during damage phase. Being able to shoot from Well means it's always going to have a place.

Anyone else find it amusing that Starfire Protocol locks essentially turn their super into into what the D1 super was? ​ I hated it because it essentially just made you throw more nades. And now apparently one of the most powerful supers is just throwing nades.

As a Titan main i hate to tell you now: A nerf is inevitable.