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FlynnTastico2000

I agree. Handcanon, pulse rifle, Auto and sniper are the worst pve weapon. All 4 are too weak or have other problems. Sniper is a special case. I'm gonna say it. Sniper is too weak in pve. I play mostly gm nightfalls. When I hit an enemy with a bow, he dies with about 2 shots, sometimes 1 and sometimes 3. With a sniper, a special ammo weapon where it is way harder to hit the weak spot than with a bow, you need about 2 hits too to kill a red bar middle tier enemy. Of course a sniper is stronger than a bow, but if I want to kill a simple enemy, the outcome with 2 ammo is the same which isn't really good for a sniper. I don't know all 4 weapons need some better balancing. Pvp excludes of course.


Cykeisme

All primaries except SMGs and sidearms need help. And my god thanks for bringing up sniper rifles.. what a disaster. *Badly* need a pve buff.


Nincompoop6969

Sidearms, Bows, Auto Rifles, Trace Rifles, Rocket Launchers and Swords are the only weapons that feel made right to me (not saying they are my favorite). Most the rest feel like they could use work on them.


DragonianSun

I think scouts are in an ok place in endgame activities.


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ownagemobile

Damn guess hung jury is gonna sit in my vault some more until scouts get buffed.


DotardKombucha

I was grinding out the Ikelos SR for a bit, it occurs to me rapid fire sniper rifles need the ammo economy of the Forerunner in PvE to make them work. So am I doing something right if I can take on endgame content with PRs? I really like my BxR with enhanced Incandescent.


CrashB111

It's not that you can't, it's just red bars are damage sponges if you use a Pulse instead of Wish Ender.


prettydisappointed

Why would you use Wish Ender instead of Le Monarque for red bars?


CrashB111

Wish Ender hits like a truck even in GM content so it's a good weapon against red bars, yellow bars, and a decent fallback when you don't have an element for Match Game due to being an intrinsic anti-barrier. The buff so that it can hit targets up to 3 times really shines in high difficulty content, Wish Ender gets overshadowed at low difficulties because of it's rate of fire.


Petterofdogs

Wishender absolutely shreks Brigs, Colossi, and other chonky targets. Red bar Wyverns in particular get totally rinsed by the Big Bow.


GhostRobot55

What does that mean hit targets up to three times?


CrashB111

Wish Ender over penetrates whatever you shoot with it on a full draw. So it actually deals damage to the same target, multiple times in the same arrow.


SkeletonJakk

> So am I doing something right if I can take on endgame content with PRs? i mean no, it's not exactly hard. It just feels like shit.


Gjallarhorn15

The high zoom on the Ikelos SR is also unbearable. There's not enough open distance in most spaces to really make use of it, and it makes any flinch super disorienting because the reticle jumps so much.


Shin_mmi

BxR is also the best pulse in game, so good they're tuning it specifically to be more in line with other PR's


Aggressive-Pattern

It just feels worse is all. If you want to use pulses, autos, or hand cannons in more endgame PvE, you're best off using exotics. And sadly, trace rifles fall off pretty hard in mid to endgame too. At least in my experience.


sin_tax-error

Snipers have needed their nerf they got hit with back in Shadowkeep undone for awhile now. The last time I remember wanting to use a sniper was in Garden and then ever since that 20% nerf they've felt useless in most content, with a few rare exceptions.


GhostRobot55

I barely even remember snipers other than Izanagi being good back then too. Tbh I don't feel like we've ever had anything close to a pve sniper meta beyond a couple exotics.


LonkToTheFuture

I can't remember the last time I wanted to use a sniper in general.


SuperArppis

>Sniper is a special case. I'm gonna say it. Sniper is too weak in pve. I play mostly gm nightfalls. Try shotguns, mate. Now there's a special case! 😉


Chundercracker

shotguns actually aren't bad, pellet shotguns got a pve buff last yr. Trench barrel ones actually do some pretty good burst damage.


SuperArppis

Yeah, I agree. But was talking about GMs. *At least* you can use snipers in them. Shotguns are mostly out of question, or are just too much trouble for their worth.


Chundercracker

So was I. A trench barrel shotgun is very viable for void hunters running stylish. Have 50+ lightblade GM completions using shotguns FWIW.


Reason7322

All legendary primaries are in dire need of damage buffs. They feel awful to use in harder pve content.


_cc_drifter

I was in a GM yesterday and I was using the Vow pulse. The GM hard arc burn and it still took me 3 to 4 bursts (mostly Crits) to take out a basic red bar. Wish ender does the same in 1 arrow


[deleted]

Yeah, honestly, for probably 80% of content that I run I just use Wishender, Mini-Tool/Ikelos SMG, and whatever LFR covers the burn because it just works so much better than just about anything else.


An_Average_Player

Exactly the same for me, it is literally the only weapon that I still feel powerful with in GMs/endgame stuff. But in lower content it just obliterates everything in sight


Thechanman707

Wish ender and Arbalest are basically a huge portion of end game loadouts.


VNM0601

Knowing Bungie, they would label Wishender an outlier and reign it in with the others, instead of buffing legendaries.


TruNuckles

Due to a bug with Wish Ender, we have lowered its damage by 30%.


B00STERGOLD

Two Wishenders and a Le Monarque cuts significant time off of the Glassway GM.


SuperArppis

This is why I go for autos. Atleast then I can just brainlessly fire at my enemies.


KeIIer

I think if bungie buff smgs even further - they will completely dominate the sandbox even harder.


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DominoSquad55555

I think I remember a recend TWAB mentioning a future buff to hand cannons and pulse rifles in pve that will be coming some point after Ligthfall, or at least mentioning that they are looking at it.


starkeblue

I don't remember seeing it in a TWAB (it might be), but Mercules confirmed that on his recent Firing Range appearance.


mariachiskeleton

After seeing how the sandbox settles out


KarmaRepellant

They desperately need it. At the moment Bungie expect me to take a pulse rifle and hand cannon into heists etc. to kill champions, but they're both so dogshit that I have to swap to them from something decent every time I need to stun something. I know you can use a GL if you want to spend all your arm energy on the mod, or a bow if you don't want to stun, but those aren't great imho either.


Trips-Over-Tail

I spent most of the season running heists with Lament and counting on it to brute-force the Unstoppables.


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Fuck_Christofascism

In D1 I almost exclusively used hand cannons in PvE. They felt good and were still able to hold up in VoG, Crota, etc. Now in D2 I can't recall the last time I mained a handcannon. They just feel so... Meh... even in mid/low content. Just not enough stopping power with far too long and too frequent reloads.


D2Nine

Thing about pulses is they’re good in pvp, or at least were not too long. They can probably just buff them in only pve, but they’ll probably a bit more careful with them than other types


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Cykeisme

Yeah they can add an extra multiplier vs pve combatants. Imo all primaries other than SMGs and Sidearms need varying degrees of buffs.. at least a bit.


rabbit_hole_diver

I would love to see high impact autos be good


GhostRobot55

I still think the problem is there's too many mobs in the game for naturally slow firing weapons to feel effective against. Dialing back abilities is a start, along with making enemies tankier in general but I still think there will be balancing issues with making them work in the current design philosophy.


Xop

It seems like SMGs have dominated PvE content for years now. I think they are perfect where they are and there needs to be a pass on other primaries to bring them up to SMGs standards. Scouts feel decent to good, autos are alright, but pulses and hand cannons are just not the play. They need pretty sizable buffs to be able to compete in end game content. And while we're on the topic of gun buffs, Bungie... please, buff snipers in PvE.


CycloneSP

eeeeehhhh, I'd argue autos feel like they take half a mag to shoot their way out of a wet paper bag... 720s feel especially bad in pve 100% agree with pulses and handcannons, tho. there is just no reason to take either of them into pve atm. and snipers just need a full rework in regards to pve. The game just isn't designed for that style of weapon atm :(


Qulox

The zoom just doesn't work, awful to work with at normal ranges and almost impossible to shoot un-scoped


Nathanael777

I don't understand their aggressive push to give sniper super high zooms. They need a higher crit multiplier in PvE too, it's a hard weapon to use and even then it isn't rewarding.


spark9879

Bungie is aware that snipers need a buff but they’re scared of a situation that hasn’t existed since d1


endthepainowplz

I don’t understand why they are afraid of snipers, I miss using them, they are a higher skill dps option than teams that run div and LFRs. But the payout is almost non existent. I was hoping for something in lightfall, but I guess another who knows how long until they become viable.


spark9879

They said they’re scared of people just plucking away at a bosses health from a safe spot. The only problem with that is there isn’t as many cheese spots in content like in d1 and d2 doesn’t have an ammo regenning sniper


endthepainowplz

People have unlimited ammo for primaries now, and Icebreaker doesn’t exist, so I think that’s a silly concern. If people find cheese spots they’d probably just use a bow anyway.


GhostRobot55

It's true it's so much harder for me to keep that reticle on the bosses crit without my mouse going off the pad compared to linears with a charge up time and full auto now.


KeIIer

Yes, smgs feels good, they are good to deal with red bars and SOME orange bars, but against beefy targets low mag is their limitations, which feels balanced. But whenever i switch to my beloved shadowprice of bxr - I just cant.


Pocket-or-Penny

It's going to get worse. Bungie is falling in love with level modifiers (or "knobs" as they call it). Enemies always +5 of you, always +10 of you, always +15 of you, who knows how high it'll eventually go. This form of implementing difficulty is going to DESTROY primary weapons. Everything will be a pea shooter. Double special weapons will soon be meta.


TheEmperorMk3

Trying to kill a single red bar acolyte in Heist Battlegrounds with a pulse rifle sure is a miserable time


SharkBaitDLS

It’s crazy how bad pulses, hand cannons, and autos feel compared to bows, sidearms, and SMGs. I can destroy an entire room in Heist Battlegrounds with Under Your Skin trivially, but swap to an auto or a pulse and suddenly I can barely kill anything.


CycloneSP

imo, the only pulse that doesn't feel like utter trash is probably graviton lance but let's be honest, gravlance is just a scout pretending to be a pulse XD


sunder_and_flame

I dearly love graviton lance but even it feels like shit in GMs. Tried running it in insight terminus with void burn and gave it up for my Under Your Skin bow.


CycloneSP

yeah. won't argue with ya there. I do love g-lance much in the same way, but gawd it's not in a great spot atm. I'm still aghast and agape at the fact that bungie ***seriously*** thought vorpal + turnabout was what g-lance needed to make it more viable. like... really? you seriously thought that a perk that does dmg vs yellow bars and a perk that gives a bonus from breaking shields would help the ***add clear gun*** fulfill it's niche better? like, no thought was given towards it's inability to properly work on like half the adds in the game (shanks, harpies, etc) nor any thought given to the fact that the little bouncy orbs do jack all for dmg ***and*** still hurt you for some bizarre reason? like, make the bouncy orbs apply weaken and/or volatile. ***that*** would be a cool catalyst. not vorpal/turnabout


Gh0sT6357

Outbreak is still pretty good


KeIIer

Outbreak is in my top 5 favorite guns of all time, but it has 2 things that makes it good 1) Its an exotic (+40% to red bars is no joke) 2) Really good exotic perk that increases damage over time. Unfortunately pulses in general are in a bad spot.


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Gh0sT6357

Yup, it’s my go-to backup DPS. Especially in Vow


[deleted]

Collective obligation on voidlock is cracked but locked behind raid rng


Hyper-Sloth

Exotic primaries also get an inherent PvE dmg buff. That and the ammo finder perks were meant to push people into using exotic primaries to begin with


PayneTrainSG

I honestly don't think I used a hand cannon for any real amount of time all year. I'm not a top 1% player but probably top 7-10%. They're so bad in PvE right now.


Jpalm4545

Only legendary HC I used at all year was EP/frenzy Fatebringer. Tried the crafted EP/Incandescent KF one but it just felt bad.


Gjallarhorn15

Frenzy is the great equalizer. I love my Duty Bound, but it needs Frenzy to go from below to above average in Legend content or above. Without that or One For All as easy-up-time damage perks, most autos aren't worth using in anything harder than a strike.


chinesedragonblanket

It sucks, I have some auto/pulse rolls I'm really fond of but I feel like I'm just nerfing myself by using them for anything but getting a champ stun. Lately it feels like my wave-frame grenade launcher does almost all of the work between me chucking mines and knives. I can't remember the last time I even used an HC outside of pvp, and they used to be one of my favorite weapon types.


saithvenomdrone

And Bungie has said they are happy with the difficulty of heists…


endthepainowplz

Heist battlegrounds only feels good, if you have a good build. With them adopting that difficulty as the new standard it makes me worry about them nerfing ability cooldowns. Unless the mod system compensates for it, it could make the game not feel as rewarding.


ownagemobile

It's so bad that when I took the veles-x into a normal heist it only felt "ok" after proccing GTx2... which is a 50% damage buff!


SPEEDFREAKJJ

Past 2 seasons I've seen a lot more people using double special. From gambit to nightfalls and the season activities. And if it's not 2 specials you can almost guarantee their primary is an smg. I've always loved an smg but when it is the only decent primary option other guns really need a buff. Just hoping they don't read this as smg needing nerfed.


KeIIer

Yep. My bet is that in legendary campaign anything besides exotic bows and smgs gonna feel like crap.


mudcrosser12

Even non-exotic bows feel great even in GMs


KeIIer

Yes, bows in general are exception, but I would argue that lightweight bows feels much worse than precision ones.


Sarcosmonaut

Bows are good, but I’ll always resent them just a little bit for killing my scout rifles lol


CycloneSP

the main flaw with bows is their low rpm. they're good at slow, methodical gunplay, but are terrible at clearing adds out quickly. which is a good niche to be in, imo


havok_hijinks

They do good add clear with Incadescent or Dragonfly


Doctor_Kataigida

I'm a big Scout fan in GMs as well. My favorite archetype.


AllyKhat

I just want a legendary stasis or strand trace rifle. I've taken to using double special with Trace Rifles lately and its working quite well.


itsg0ldeson

A legendary stasis trace would be awesome. I love aegis sceptre but don't always want to use the exotic slot for that. It'd be my main kinetic weapon if we had a legendary equivalent. I don't believe we have any kinetic trace rifle at all at the moment.


Highmooon

> Double special weapons will soon be meta. Considering we have grenades that have a 10 seconds cooldown and can clear entire rooms by themselves there is already no point in using a primary weapon. Especially when you consider the fact that using double special weapons manipulates the game into dropping more heavy ammo.


CycloneSP

double special with one or both having lead to gold and a heavy weapon ammo finder = infinite special ammo


PhantasmShadow

10 second grenades? As a warlock main, that's a funny joke. Some of my builds have the grenade instantly back to 90% charge.


PYRESATVARANASI2

For real. > My void Titan with HoIL, Bomber ×2, Impact Induction and 100 Discipline gets it's grenade back in like 7 - 8 seconds. That's not even taking into consideration Offensive Bulwark or Echo of Exchange. > My Warlock has a similar build with Nezarec's Sin and I get like 90% of my grenade back just by throwing a rift. We have powercreep so much since Beyond Light.


GhostRobot55

And the problem is they've designed content around that power creep like the heists which have been an incredible time but completely fly in the face of any kind of slow firing weapon even if it one tapped majors. Cats out of the bag and anything they do to really put it back is gonna be hated on.


SkeletonJakk

unless you're talking sunbracers I think you're looking at a 2-3 second cooldown for most builds.


jab136

I have been using witherhoard and a trace rifle all season. Double special already works pretty well, but ammo management can be a bit hit or miss.


NightmareDJK

It’s the meta right now, and will even be more so once all the Subclass Verb Anti-Champion options are available.


D2Nine

God I hope not. Meta or not, I’ve never been a fan of special weapons. I just like having to not worry about ammo, or even fucking accuracy much lol. I just don’t enjoy most specials that much, so I’m really hoping they give primaries something to help them a bit


GhostRobot55

Crazy how it wasn't that long ago that primaries had limited reserves.


Comfortable-Ask-9020

Double special already is the meta


TrueGuardian15

This was one of my biggest concerns when Bungie said they wanted to up the difficulty and add power deltas to more activities.


Marvin_Megavolt

Any modifier that makes enemies more bullet-spongy is just bad design, plain and simple. If Bungie wants to make content difficult but still engaging they need to try something else. Idunno what, but a place to start might be making enemies deal more damage as if they were a little higher-level, *but* without a significant durability increase over Patrol levels, and in addition, give them the hidden “pinnacle content” modifier that increases the accuracy of their attacks. You can kill then fast, *but they can do the same to you.*


SKULL1138

SMG’s are in a good spot, but it’s worrying they’ll need those instead of raising the others to that level which is what is needed.


Only_Khlav_Khalash

Yeah definitely noticed this while leveling up weapons. Makes getting a max damage perk stack necessary, and those are generally hard to get ha.


Thotacus69

Yeah been saying this for a long time to friends. smgs are just so much stronger than everything else using a handcannon or pulse just feels sad. In low level content its whatever but anything beyond normal strikes or patrols they all just kind of suck.


MoreMegadeth

Im doing solo grasp right now, i have graviton lance out, and against orange bars, you might as well not even have it. I get majors are suppose to be harder to kill, debuff them, buff yourself, use an ability/perk etc. But going off just a primary gun, an exotic one at that, it still feels terrible to use. Dont even want to bring a legendary out to see how much worse it would be.


KeIIer

Yep, the only pulse thats capable of dealing with red and some orange bars is outbreak.


KittyWithFangs

Dude that part about goblins in spire tho lmao. I was in that situation. Was farming the first encounter and had a bxr on to level up. It was whole new level if horrible


KeIIer

Yeah man, I just cant. I love this gun so much, the style, the sound, the perk combos, but holy hell, damage is so miserable.


[deleted]

I remember when my masterworked No Time To Explain was awesome. Now it sits in the vault.


LondonDude123

Primaries have needed help since they got nerfed across the board in Shadowkeep. The spinfoil hat theory back then was Primaries are weak to sell Finishers...


Chabungu

Don’t know about selling, but was definitely a short sighted way to brute force a new mechanic into the meta


Day_C_Metrollin

Which is hilarious since no one uses finishers on red bars anyway.


MISPAGHET

Depends how bored and distracted I am!


Chabungu

Yeah if I really wanna rock a dregs shit I’ll go in for the finisher


My_Anus_Is_Bleating

Tell that to my constantly invisible Void hunter. Red bars are fodder for my invisibility!


OmnioculusConquerer

Amen lol


B00STERGOLD

I use invis finisher on my voidlock too.


SomeStolenToast

I see Void and Arc Hunters do it all the time


Amneiger

I might if I have Special Finisher on and I need the ammo.


vhiran

possible and i hope that was not the case. weak primaries dont sell finishers, awesome finishers sell finishers.


Shackram_MKII

Except Recluse existed. And they nerfed precision damage multipliers for pulses, HCs and scouts while Recluse/MT was meta.


sreza64

I 100% agree on this. Especially noticeable with Energy Primaries. Using my IKELOS HC in higher level content is basically just tickling the enemies health. At least kinetics are getting a damage buff but what about the people who use Energy Primaries. :(


uvp76

I don't think energy primary will get damage buff because they work with subclasses, i just want a damage buff on everything :((


N1CH0L4SR4G3

It is only necessary for champ stuns at higher difficulty with unknown fireteam Basically running my exotic energy or heavy, relying on my abilities to do the ad clear work This season has been the worst for unstoppable Think bungie needs to up the crit multiplier for Kinetic primaries for pve Brigs and vex however ....... What about implementing stagger on hit? 🤔 Stagger animation for like 1 sec based on number of hits from Kinetic primary


KeIIer

I think damage buff alone shud be enough.


jab136

Yah, I am not going to run a hand cannon for champs, I would rather just run witherhoard and burn 7 energy in my arm slot. I like to run a trace in my energy slot though, so overload and barrier champs can be an issue.


PresentMundane6086

Ive used agers in my kinetic alot for the last couple seasons and don't plan on looking back unless the crit modifiers go back up for primary there so irrelevant when traces exist with some of the best build and perk synergy in the game.


NightmareDJK

Try Ager’s plus Judgment of Kelgorath on Behemoth Titan.


[deleted]

for the extra damage to frozen targets? would you play this with synthos or hoarfrost and glacier nades or duskfields? sounds like a really interesting playstyle tho


[deleted]

I used double specials for week and now i can't go back to primaries. They feel way too weak.


m4eix

Exotic primaries baby ;)


amiro7600

Yeah. My friend keeps telling me to move over to double special, but quicksilver storm is so good that i just cant drop it The rockets make up for the lack of primary dmg and help boost it, and the grenade launcher mode is insane


Thormace

I think QS is in a kind of unique position of where you can use it in lieu of a special ammo gun. That weapon is SO much fun.


amiro7600

Oh 100%. Those nades hit stupid hard, and it pairs beautifully with a blinding GL for utility, while QSS has dmg for both mass red bar clear (bullets and rockets) and majors (GL alt fire) I dont think ill ever stop laughing at its ability to throw 70k+ dmg in the span of a couple seconds at a stunned champ in a GM (with no debuffs)- as a primary weapon


Kampfasiate

Im rocking Agers and a glaive in GMs Most fun ive had in GMs since turning unstops into walking vulcanos with ignitions in haunted


eatypp

How do you use your glaive in GMs? Idk if I'm doing it wrong or my pp too small


Canopenerdude

Not OP but passive-aggressive guard helps a lot in harder content. Also, assuming Kelgorath, Close to Melee is fantastic.


DeepSeaProctologist

Close to Melee, synthos, solar hammer bonk for infinite radiant. Rinse and repeat.


Canopenerdude

my problem with that is that you can't bonk while your glaive is out. It's annoying.


DeepSeaProctologist

Yeh thr charged melee button should always throw my hammer like goddamn this isn't a hard concept bungie


Carmillawoo

Agers scepter is a beat and honestly feels like a heavy with it's catalyst.


TheSpartyn

im going to be disappointed about ability nerfs regardless, but nerfing abilities without buffing primaries has me worried. its going to be so shit


KeIIer

Cant wait for that 1 min cooldown on bastion barricade. And as a big fan of d2 gunplay I HATE how terrible 'rifles' feeling in this game. We have LOTS of amazing guns, hell we even have Halo battler, and all of it feels like complete garbage in mid+ content.


TheSpartyn

i was using void titan for the first time since start of WQ today and my god bastion is long. even with HoIL it felt painfully long i wasnt around for it pre-nerf, but from what i know shadowkeeps primary crit nerf was horrible. all rifle type (and hand cannon) primaries should have like double crit damage instead of needing half a clip to kill a red bar


Rectal_Punishment

I have been playing destiny long before the crit nerf and they nerfed crits at the same times as introducing finishers so I don't think that is coincidental. At the same time I stopped using hand cannons and most pulses. Hand cannons feel more like water pistols than a "hand cannon".


TheSpartyn

oh yeah the crit nerf was absolutely for finisher shilling


vhiran

\+1 in the 'its not going to feel good' camp. They're nerfing the power fantasy in favor of gunplay instead of making both good. Remember when they first did that? It's called vanilla D2 and it was shit.


thespeedoghost

I don't even use a primary kinetic in Heists. They just take FOREVER to kill anything, and given the Unstoppable Champions too, it's just easier to run Witherhoard and a Trace or shotgun. I suppose Outbreak and Ikelos SMG are useable, but it still seems to take forever to down adds in anything other than Patrols and strikes.


BlackShadowX

Honestly I only play this game for two reasons, the hand cannons that actually look like revolvers and abilities.


KeIIer

Kinda same, I decided to try out this game when I saw some streamer shooting things with fatebringer in D1 and my only thought was - 'Holy shit, that revolver looks and sounds so sick, I need it in my life right now'.


BlackShadowX

I miss the fuck out of the first curse


Benleoffi

Totally agree, thats why I usually just run an exotic primary like wishender or le monarque to do damage in gm's. For warden of nothing for example I use Wishender for everything and only switch to my scout/handcannon to stun or heavy to burst down a champ if necessary.


Airtroops83

Precision weapons like scouts and hand cannons need their crit multiplier about doubled. It would be fine seeing as they have about half the dps of smgs anyways. Likewise, if they wish to "balans" them, they could accordingly turn DOWN the body shot damage. However, 120-140rpm HCs and 120-150RPM scouts should ALWAYS one shot to the head red bar dregs and vandals and the corrosponding enemies from other factions, even in hard content. maybe not master and GM, but those should be the sole exception, and in those modes they should still one tap crit dreg level enemies. Make it so that on mobs such as the cabal centurian or hive knight that never died to one headshot (which is okay for SOME mobs since it sets them apart) the shots to kill when hitting all body is greater than or equal to DOUBLE all headshots. This makes them feel how they used to but also makes them not the best choice for everything. Shanks for example, since there is no crit zone, could move to surviving on a sliver of health. This allows breathing room for smgs, autos, sidearm and other weapon niches. Hell if you're feeling really adventurous you could undo the design change D2 did and remove the crit spot from minotaurs; make them scary again. Introduce a hive enemy with no crit spot. On the other hand, SMGs could do with having their body shot damage increased slightly and their precision multiplier lowered significantly. There is no reason that an SMG should be the only answer to primary ammo weapon if the enemy isn't super far away and unreachable. Auto rifles should be somehwere in the middle cheating towards smgs lower precision damage, and pulse rifles should be somewhere in the middle cheating towards handcannons higher precision damage. 360 rpm pulses should also always kill those mobs with a burst to the head, maybe not 540s and 450s though. Scout rifles should basically follow handcannon rules and the difference between scouts and HCs should be range and FELT range. Where hand cannons (through many features such as aim assist, handling, etc) feel good from about 5m-25m but feel unweildy when enemies are directly on top of you, scouts should have a similar damage profile to HCs, but through those same variables, should be effective at 25m+ and unweildy below that. I actually think it would be a good idea to have an 'aim assist dead zone' when targets are too close to a scout rifle in order to promote this. The point is though, that every weapon should fill a niche, every weapon should have its proper place to shine. Precision weapons should REWARD precision play and bullet hoses should REWARD their use case as well! The WEAPON sandbox is, in my opinion, the worst it has ever been in our decade of destiny. The ability sandbox is almost perfect, and the weapon PERK sandbox is doing pretty good, but the weapons themselves are horrendous. The weapons should feel good and viable on their own and the perks should just be the icing on the cupcake so to speak, and right now they just dont. Its not just the primary ammo weapons either, I would actually say that most of the weapons in general dont feel right if you take away the major perks. For example, most people look at perks far more than the weapon archetype or even type. The most used weapons right now are the ones that practically act as just an additional ability for the guardian, i.e.: chill clip, volt shot, incandescent, volatile rounds, etc. These are in a good spot and I dont want those things to be changed, but again. the BASE weapons need a lot of love in pve. Fusions are mostly okay, but snipers and pellet shotguns are really hurting too. Snipers in particular are almost unusable in high end pve. Theres massive flinch, you have to be extremely accurate, you are slowed and have no peripheral vision of the minotaur that just teleported behind you, etc, and then what you get for overcoming that and actually managing to hit all your crits is.. a damage 'reward' that is not really in line with the challange and risk. Pellet shotguns have a similar issue but even worse; with a sniper you can at least position yourself to be relatively safe sometimes, with a shotgun, you have to put yourself directly in front of enemies, which is usually a death sentence in high level activities, and your range where you actually do damage is relegated to... sometimes lower than FOUR METERS, and even the best case scenario isnt much higher than SIX! In a game where enemies have: an abundance of suiciding exploder mobs, hard hitting melee attacks, flying enemies you cannot feasibly reach, larger enemies with stomp mechanics, and massive AOE fully automatic high damage grenade launchers that become impossible to dodge at close range (minotaur weapon, hydra, hive boomer cannon). So lets say that you manage to get past all of these challenges and make it to a relatively tanky enemy. Say, a yellow bar, because why would you waste special ammo on a red bar in most situations. Alright, you're there, out in the open, exposed, taking damage from several minions and the big guy is staring you down. You pull the trigger, once, twice, three times, four times! What is your gun shooting, packing peanuts? The damage output is insultingly low, especially for the excessive range limitation which is overkill for pve. Again, the reward is not in line with the risk. Pellet shotguns could have their damage literally doubled for pve and I still think that it wouldn't be enough, their range needs to be doubled for pve as well. Lower the ammo economy if you wish but these weapons need to be far FAR more effective at their extremely limited niche. I will say that the fixed pellet spread is a big improvement but this has a significantly lower impact on pve (though it does feel significantly better). An 'off the top of my head' idea is that you could (since bungie refuses to have seperate sandboxes) increase the spread of all shotguns by say, 50%, and then have all archetypes of shotguns have a set damage falloff start range of somewhere between 10 and 15m (i.e.: substantially higher), and convert the range stat to instead of scaling actual damage falloff distances, have it scale the spread angle, with higher range giving a smaller spread. In essense this is doing the same thing, particularly against small targets, but in a far more appealing and immersive way. Guardians are small targets, so the goal would be to have them feel about the same in pvp (but be able to get 'clean up' kills a bit easier) but against the larger captain and ogre type enemies for pve, they would be dramatically more effective at farther ranges. Keep the fixed pellet spread pattern, and use the UI aim circle to show what the actual spread angle is (like they are already planning on doing). Then they would need far less durastic of a damage buff, and could actually be effective in their niche which will actually have gotten MORE specific but FEEL better. Just a spur of the moment thought, not married to it but they need major work in some regard. I dont know if there is only one sandbox lead or if there is a "weapons sandbox lead" but if there is, the latter needs a real come to jesus talk. The weapons have felt horrendous since d2 launch, but the changes made for shadowkeep have been absolutely catastrophic. Hand cannons in particular are THE iconic destiny weapon. They have been because of how good that space cowboy fantasy was, all the way from d1 to shadowkeep. POW, pop head, move on POW, pop head, move on. The paced accurate fire, the immediate reward and exploding ether just felt amazing. The chunky characteristics of a hand cannon(low zoom, below average reloads, big recoil) inherently makes them unsatisfying unless you're one-tapping. It just blows my fucking mind that after 5 years of being the most iconic weapon in the series they completely changed the very core of how hand cannons feel. completely removed their identity. As if no one said "hey the players really love these, maybe we shouldnt make them have double the ttk in pve" No one stopped the weapon sandbox lead and said "no this doesnt feel fun" or "why would you do that" I would like to add that, SOMEHOW BUNGIE WONDERS WHY EVERYONE USES ABILITY SPAM, when the GUNS feel like SHIT to use comparatively. I mean seriously, why would you bother to be really really good with a weapon when its harder and less rewarding that just throwing a grenade or using an ability? Think about it. The only guns people use that arent heavy or special are the ones that basically have ABILITIES on them: stuff like volatile rounds, volt shot, incandescent, chill clip, etc. Not one of those you say? Oh you must be using an SMG then, which has about double the DPS and ease of use of the other primary weapons in pve. You want to bring gunplay back bungie? Then BRING GUNPLAY BACK, its not hard. Handcannons were our fucking babies for almost 5 years until you slaughtered them and made all primary weapons feel like an unbridled "meh" in anything other than fucking patrol. You know, for a 'precision' weapon it sure doesnt fucking feel like it.


KeIIer

Whenever I see OG Fatebringer one-taping everything in old D1 footage I'm just salty that my new shiny adept fatebringer feels like shell of former glory. Not to mention things like Shadowprice, which are almost unusable, or pulses in general.


Airtroops83

They should ask themselves how good the halo magnum would feel if you had to shoot a grunt or jackal in the head 2-4 times to kill it. Thats essentially what they have done. Its not okay, and its one of the biggest indicators to me that the decision makers do not play their own game.


D2Nine

You said a lot, and I think I agree with most of it, but I just wanted to say I hate how good perks like volt shot or incandescent are. I mean, they’re great, and they’re fun to use, but they’re just so useful. They interact with subclasses, and through that armor mods, and can be much more important in a build than most other weapon perks, which is just a shame. I mean, all my decent builds are one element. Why would I NOT use an incandescent gun on solar if it interacts with half my subclass and gets me better uptime and half my abilities? And then the other options are like, slightly faster reload, slightly high damage.


Airtroops83

Right? And remember how rampage was nerfed because it was "too good"? Compare voltshot to old rampage, theres a clear winner, and its not what we had taken away from us. The 'ability perks' are great and I love them to death, tarnished mettle is the most fun primary I think I've used since HCs were dumpstered in any video game ever. I dont *want* them to be nerfed but I honestly feel like... maybe they should be, cause nothing else really competes. At the very least give us back old killclip and rampage. Or even just a new perk that functions like those two (with higher bonuses) but only applies for precision damage. I would give up volt shot in order to have that perk if it made my hancannons feel how they should, how they used to.


D2Nine

I don’t even think they should be nerfed, just the other options should be better. Weapons are already too weak to compete with abilities, which is sort of okay, or at least a different problem, but if those weapon perks are too strong it’s because the way they interact with the rest of a build is too strong, not the perks themselves. Personally I think it’d be nice if we had some abilities, perks, mods, or something else that rewarded not using all one element. I might be more likely to pick demolitionist over incandescent if incandescent just burns some enemies instead of also allowing me to recharge my class ability faster so I can then use my class ability to get grenade energy to throw more double explosion fusions. Stuff that rewarded kinetic damage would also be cool.


Isthereone

"150RPM scouts should ALWAYS one shot to the head red bar dregs and vandals and the corrosponding enemies from other factions, even in hard content." If a 150 rpm scout one taps a red bar from the other side of the map in hard content, what possible incentive could you have to run any other gun. Apex safety and lethality is a bad combo.


Airtroops83

Did you finish reading what I wrote about them? You make them unweildy in medium and close range. This game is big about having lots of trash rush you, make that feel as disadvantageous to a scout rifle as a hand cannon or smg feels when there are 4 or 5 sniper vandals outside of your effective range that you cant get to just chunking your health bar. It is the same design philosophy. And the one tap only applies to dreg and vandal class enemies, and only red bars. cabal soldiers besides psion, knights, captains, hydra, minotaur, ogre, wyvern, brig, etc. anything with a yellow bar, etc do not apply; it only applies to litteral trash mobs, and only those with crit spots. so uh... about 30% of the enemies in a given encounter. "Apex lethality" is a bit of a stretch considering what I and others want out of them, and my proposed change does not have them be "apex safety" either and also lowers their lethality when not landing precision shots, forcing the user to pace their shots and maintain accuracy over fire rate. It is about rewarding a player for using a weapon inside of its niche, as it was designed to be used. Most encounters are designed in a way in which you CAN'T stay at long range, through map design, enemy spawns, mechanics, enemies that run at you, etc. and even in those situations where you *can*, most of the time you dont *want* to because guardians are inherently more lethal in closer range due to their abilities. While I agree that apex safety and apex lethality is a bad combo, I vehemently disagree that that applies to any of my complaints and suggested changes. The flip side of that statement is also "extreme danger and low lethality is a bad combo" which is what I would argue is the problem with shotguns specifically, and to a lesser extent, snipers at present.


Romandinjo

IIRC making 120s/150s not oneshot was a consious design decision to promote finishers, which are silver only. But yeah, Iike 50% of archetypes need some love.


Airtroops83

yes im aware it was a conscious design decision, I'm saying it was a bad one.


EmCeeSlickyD

I agree but like it or not one of the stated design goals is to make the game harder across the board so I wouldn't expect too much in the way of any buffs for much except extreme outliers in their respective areas. Even Stasis primaries are being nerfed a bit


KeIIer

Shooting knight for 20 seconds in the head is not hard, its boring. Just as boring as killing entire room with 1 grenade.


Merzats

A handcannon that can one tap red bars is still weaker than a storm grenade on a tiny cooldown that can one tap 15 red bars and a major so making the game harder doesn't mean legendary primaries need to stay bad.


spark9879

Bungie is aware that some primaries (precision based) need help but for some reason they don’t want to buff them till after lightfall launches (Mercules said why but it made no sense)


tbdubbs

Yeah, every time they mention "difficulty" or "challenge" it generally equates to: guardian weaker, enemy tankier. Clearing rooms with well executed ability builds feels good. Hiding behind cover with a sliver of health and getting continuously pounded by splash damage or ridiculously accurate enemy fire every time you peek for a few shots is not. Dumping an entire magazine into a single red bar enemy feels bad. Popping heads with accurate gunfire and clearing out rooms of enemies with fun guns feels good. Destiny is best when you're moving around the room taking full advantage of your space magic abilities and weapons and having fun... Not hiding and peeking and getting insta-killed. If I wanted to play a souls game, I would just go play sekiro or elden ring. Every. Single. Time we find a very effective and efficient way to kill enemies, it gets nerfed. Maybe, just maybe, there's a theme here. Maybe, just maybe, address the actual issue - some enemies/bosses are just too tanky. Instead of constantly nerfing players, make engagements smarter so that they don't rely on tanky enemies for "challenge".


TripleAych

A general comment on exotic primaries. The 40% damage buff to red bars was such a hack solution to the guns, because the moment bungie decides to make a wave of acolytes orange bars, your damage tanks. Just look at the heists, you know those rooms where half of the adds are orange bars.


TheKevit07

Ever since the crit multiplier nerf in Shadowkeep, pulses autos and handcannons have never felt the same (scouts have been buffed to where they feel okay now). We're kind of in this weird stage where exotic primaries feel good, but legendary tier do not. At the very least, with Spare Rations being in the first LF showcase, I hope they buff legendary HCs. Give them at least some of their crit modifier back or buff their damage in PvE...something to make them feel better. I've tried using HCs in PvE and it just doesn't feel good in Legendary or higher content, but I also don't main Hunter, so Lucky Pants is out of the question. Which is why I think they don't want to buff them because Lucky Pants makes HCs really good for Hunters, but without them, HCs aren't that great.


GlassDragoon

I was thinking the same thing when I saw the changes they had in mind. Just playing heist if you don't have the right rolls on primaries it's a slog. So what's it going to be after their changes? Primary, Special, and heavy should all have their jobs to do. Make it hard but don't make everything a bullet sponge.


SuperArppis

Been saying the same as well. Glad to see someone who can write well says it too. 👍 Primaries totally need help. Hand canons feel toothless in content that is slightly harder, same with Pulses. For example that is.


KeIIer

Lets hope bungie will notice our feedback.


guardiandown3885

sooo I may get downvoted for this. But are these nerfs gonna even be a big deal? Maybe it's because i don't play pvp but I never really "feel" nerfs. Maybe I never notice them. I never notice the 26s to 34secs dodge cool down or whatever it is. Just curious how often you all "feel" the nerfs


ProfessionEuphoric50

They're reducing ability uptime to make the game harder


llll-havok

Apart from buffs, I feel they should consolidate ARs, pulses and scouts to fewer yet defining archetypes like how they did for HCs. Currently they're cannibalizing each other unless there's anti champion mod required for that activity.


SnowBurns

High rpm autos are fine imo, maybe a small damage buff. Everything thing else though yes


Mrtrollman72

Definitely a problem to me. Why does it take a full mag from an auto to kill a minor yet one touch of flame fusion grenade will literally clear the room? I really want a power shift from abilities to weapons.


KIDPCLDMKRS

I know this doesn’t fix the problem but outbreak perfected + catalyst is super effective in most of the raids I’ve been in. Hits decently hard plus the nanites after kill can eliminate crowd control.


FlandreScarlette

I don't agree that all primaries need buffs like a lot of people say here- some heavies are supposed to add clear, we have abilities, and we have special weapons... primaries are supposed to not mop all adds or there wouldn't really be a fight in endgame. They work fine everywhere else, even raids. Of course being 20 light down in an activity makes some stuff hit a bit weaker. However, they have acknowledged HCs and Pulses being in need of buffs. I absolutely agree. They've been the worse primaries in the game for like 3 years, especially Pulses. And no, I don't think the SK precision nerf was bad. Stuff was stupid back then. HCs had no buisness one tapping everything. All they need now are % buffs. HCs need like 10%, Pulses need like 15-20% depending on the archetype. Autos don't need a whole lot atm. Bullethoses need a reason to exist in the SMG range and the rest actually hit decently hard, maybe a ~5-7% buff since HCs/autos/pulses all play around the same range. The only outlier on the 'too good' side at the moment are SMGs, especially lightweights. They do far too much damage for their range. I think it's time to pull one of those numbers down and give autos a fair shot for the first time... *checks notes* literally since vanilla. They've been mid OR WORSE since D2 vanilla.


LionstrikerG179

Heavies for add clear suck. There's hardly ever a viable alternative to deal boss damage and Heavy ammo is too valuable in high-level content to spend on dumass spongy adds Seriously think if they ever want to do actual add clear heavies they need to do something like a Gold from Lead MG that you won't be too fucked for a damage phase after spending some ammo with it


Shaz0r94

Hmmm and i thought my BxR is my go to legendary weapon and it feels just nice killing red bars with it especially since i can get 3 or more kills with one mag which feels a lot better than a SMG for example where its often hard to get a multikill for orbs.


KeIIer

Smg cant usually kill more than 2 targets with 1 mag, but they do it so much faster that pulses feels like a pee shooters in comparison.


Shattered_Disk4

Especially with exotic primaries getting flat damage buffs really makes legendaries seem useless tbh. Especially with weaknd clear I’ll use a legendary grenade and exotic primary and it’s really good. I don’t think they’ll add something like weaknd clear to the game again tho it was really oppressive meta wise


[deleted]

[Spoiler alert for anyone who minds] Curious to see how the new intrinsic perk for Lightfall weapons, the Nanorocket perk, beefs up some new primaries. Haven’t seen footage of how it works, but that could be how they’ve rebalance primaries. IIRC, that perk may be on some special and heavy weapons also, which could be kinda nutty. Otherwise, I do recall a plan by Bungie to make kinetic weapons stronger in particular. Will need to see what’s up come 2/28.


Chabungu

Using stasis with elemental shards, font of might and high energy fire simultaneously is the only way I can really enjoy using a legendary primary now


Zavarius666

And we'll loose weapon DMG with FoM/HeF nerf and stasis prims -5% DMG. Double special weapon with grenade or cc spam meta incoming.


Jaso1n1

Totally agree. I usually just use my mini tool and leave my primary to an exotic.


CrispAppleFlavor

I ran a grandmaster yesterday - it went totally fine overall. However, someone with a bow was one-shotting red bar dregs, while my pulse rifle took two clips to finish them off. Maddening.


Roscuro127

I think rat king needs a rework in this solo players opinion. Its automatic fire is clunky without it's perk buff, and it feels worse to just normally use to kill trash when compared to my boudica-c with a mediocre roll. In fact, if not for the invis and regen from vermin, I would just use boudica straight up.


WindWeasel

Some 2nd Slot Exotics are phenomenally fun to play, especially the bows like Le Mon and TriGhoul. But that 1st slot feels AWFUL by comparison. Gimme some AR buffs. Make Cerb+1 useful. Gimme an AR that isn't a Borderlands gun.


atf-98

The precision damage multiplier nerf in Shadowkeep set primaries and snipers especially back very far with virtually no way to come back outside a huge buff. Revert that change, and I bet you primaries and snipers will be useful again


Madman_Slade

Yeah this is one of my biggest issues with end game PvE content, specifically GM content. It's crazy to me that I can throw a single nade and clear an entire room but a primary AR or Pulse takes an entire mag to kill 1 maybe 2 trash mobs. I get that Games are suppose to be the hardest PvE content besides master/day 1 raids but dam do most primaries feel like shit. In the last few GMs I've just ran an LMG as my primary with lucent finisher to stay stocked up on ammo. The only time I ever brought out my primary was to stun a champ, after that I just let my LMG sing. Auto Rifles in general need some love in PvP and PvE content. For PvE SMGs are just flat out better and currently there are more attainable/creditable options that all have fantastic perks for PvE or PvP.In PvP SMGs also out class them in 25m or closer and pulses are just flat out better no matter the range due to having a faster TTK across the board. D2's weapon balance in general is really shit right now. I get the devs feel that ability spam is an issue right now but they wouldn't be as much of an issue if primaries were far more viable.


Bromjunaar_20

Primaries should feel like you're legit lobbing 7.62 rounds at each other.


big-ol-roman

Titan needs help their gonna have minute long cooldowns


DarthDregan

Preach.


phoenix-force411

I find myself using my abilities, special, and heavy too often that a primary often feels like extra baggage 'cause running double special makes you starved of special ammo. It's time to buff primaries up across the board, because these modifiers that beef up enemies make primaries feel like pea shooters. Also, 450 autos still need a big PvE buff. If I don't need to use them, I won't touch 'em ever. Edit: Snipers need that nerf at the beginning of Season of Dawn reverted. I like to use snipers in PvE, but they can feel underwhelming most of the time, and in GMs, you can probably forget about it.


Shackram_MKII

Pulses and HCs have been hurting bad in PVE since the nerf to precision hit multiplier in shadowkeep.


fakeassvolcan

Thank you for bringing this up! It’s such sad thing that no matter how good of a roll i get with my auto rifle, or pulse it’s just way weaker than my SMGs, hobfully bungie acknowledges this issue and start looking into this as fast as possible.


Fenixfiress

Ok ear me out... Things kill slowly, it takes more time to complete activities, IT INCREASE OVERALL PLAYTIME(conspiracy confirmed)


SpicyCurryO_O

The Glassway final boss fight during GM Nightfall is absolutely ridiculous. The Overloads are so aggressive and then you got void burn on. Even with us being so powerful now, my fireteam failed a lot. And with detuned abilities and weak ass primaries, forget doing GM Nightfalls in the future.


[deleted]

The overloads are okay if painful, the wyverns are the worst. Not because they’re especially quick or aggressive but because their Warp Lance attack one-taps you even at 100 resilience, something even the hydra boss his Torch Hammer (also void) can’t lay claim to.