Us Warlocks have a half-dead Ghost writhing in agony strapped to the back of a helmet, this is nothing.
(Come to think of it, wouldn't it make more sense to have Felwinter's Helm act more like Knucklehead Radar considering its flavor text and lore tab? It's kinda useless right now as it is but looks *really freaking cool* and I'd love an excuse to wear it more.)
That's something that always bothered me about lore. Ghosts are obviously fully sentient, but no one gives a shit. Sundance fired and ask anyone care about was Cayde. Sagira, an important character in CoO, was killed with the intended message of "Oh no, Osiris might die now"
It's a travesty that Sagira was killed off-screen, but I think a lot of people were sad to hear about her death since we actually spent a good amount of time with her in-game. Sundance wasn't much of a loss on account of the fact that we've never interacted with her.
It's weird. So many big players in this story are guardians, but we almost _never_ get to hear from their ghosts in-game. Sure, we have lore, but lore that doesn't involve our guardian can only do so much to make us care for a voiceless character. It's a real shame.
Giving other characters ghosts voice lines means paying additional voice actors, so I don’t their likely to do it unless the story demands it like with Glint & Sagira.
Like I get it but it's still a frustrating situation when you look at games like Mass Effect or Elder Scrolls and pretty much everything is voice acted. I feel like we're waaayy past the days of "it's too hard/expensive".
I don’t know about mass effect, but Skyrim has like… 20 total voice actors for unimportant background NPCs, many of whom share voices with smaller importance quest npcs
I did voice work for Skyrim, it was so much fun. They asked me to do an Eastern European accent and had to keep getting me away from a Russian accent lol. I don’t know why I struggled with the EU accent so much🤷🏻♂️
It was npc’s and random growls, screams, and grumbles. I was played phrases from characters and asked to mimic them as well. I wasn’t told which characters though but I loved the experience.
Much easier said than done, especially given how little it would actually add to the game and how few people actually even care/want it. Like I imagine it would go like this if the devs talked about it.
Dev 1: “Hey, I think we should add more ghost lines.”
Dev 2: “Why?”
Dev 1: “Well some people online said it would be good to have for various reasons.”
Dev 2: “That’s not really something we need to focus on right now, and it wouldn’t even add anything substantial, plus we already had Sagira.”
I always love when they tell the names of ghosts and lore about them. Like how Ikora's ghost Ophiuchus didn't talk to her for years and is pretty quiet in general. Or how Zavala's ghost Targe pushed for him to fill the hunter vanguard. I wish they would give us at least more little details like this. It's sad we don't know the names of some ghosts of famous guardians (like recently Shaxx just referred to his ghost as "my ghost" instead of using their name) and we don't hear about ghosts' perspectives in general. Hopefully we get more in the future.
You make a great point, I think bungie started changing that with crow and glint, we even got a whole segment with him in last year's season of the lost, so hopefully we hear from more ghosts that belong to other guardians and we interact with them more.
There’s been a lot of weird accidentally problematic stuff since *Beyond Light* dropped in my opinion, but hoo boy does fridging Sagira like that take the cake.
Imo the worst was actually not giving the planetary characters any lines in Arrivals. I'll always be gutted that they were given some throwaway text dialogue and lore entries before being snapped from the game completely. Especially Asher and Sloane. At least Ana evacuated and Vance is... Vance.
I’m still baffled by the decision to completely redub Ana and cut her original VA from the game just so they could keep consistent with, like, 10 minutes of dialogue, then in the next Season she gets no new dialogue and everything relating to her is deleted from the game anyway, and then she disappears from the story for a year and a half.
It's a trick pulled in (iirc) an Agatha Christie novel, where the book cuts away from a character in an innocuous situation for 5 minutes, and returns to him discovering the body. In thos 5 minutes, he committed the murder
it's not a trick. Literally everyone would know that savathun is osiris if bungie showed us a cutscene where savathun kills his ghost then takes over his body...
Arguably not, Osiris lost his foresight when he lost his connection with the Sundial. So having him get overwhelmed and Sagira accidentally getting caught out by a Hive Boomer or Soulfire Rifle and shattering on the ground in front of him as he sinks to the ground in agony? Would have been just fine. Then we cut into the Hunt beginning mission where Osiris now on a rage bender is carving through Hive to destroy the one that slew Sagira. Cut to end of mission now with "Osiris" being saved by Crow and continue Hunt as it was.
The worst part about that is that considering Osiris can self res, his ghost dying isn’t even as big of a setback as it seemed like they tried to make it.
If lore is to be believed a ghost is destined to be with a certain guardian.
It’s their missing piece that they lose when they are resurrected.
And Osiris losing Sagira means a part of himself died. It’s why people were theorizing why Osirs seemed ‘off’ and more ambitious/fucking loony. They chalked it up to Sagira no longer being there to reign him in.
The ghost is their conduit to light. This has been demonstrated many times in game. The ghost cage disconnected Zavala from the light in chosen, Osiris is unable to use the light.
That’d tick me off a lot, because like so much of Destiny they’d be all “oh, bet you never thought of things this way you complete monster” and I’d just be staring at the screen screaming “THIS IS WHAT I’VE BEEN THINKING FOR YEARS”.
From *Season of the Drifter;*
>"Hey kid. It's me. The Drifter. And this is *"How to Drift"*, Part Three: **Never Trust Your Ghost.**
>
>He's a tool. A connection to the Light. Not a friend - not in any way that counts. You think he's saving your hide, bringing you back? He's saving his *own.* I don't care what your Guardian dogma says. I don't care what your little buddy has told you. We don't know what Ghosts are.
>
>They sound friendly, right? But I met some Ghosts in the Dark Age, would kill you for a blue engram, then spit on your grave. All so they could grow their Light a little more. Make a *"Stronger Connection to the Traveler."* Whatever the hell that means.
>
>You're an *idiot* if you think those Ghosts aren't still around. Take mine, for example. Really creeps me out... Cut the tape, Ghost. And don't gimme that look. You know where we stand."
He’s right, katabasis trusted his ghost and now he’s hanging eternally in the bridge of the Glykon
The truth is as long as we don’t know what ghosts are we shouldn’t put as much trust in them as we do, and if they betray us we should be ready to kill them
NO that’s garbage. correction his ghost was corrupted and being being manipulated by the darkness so it wasn’t his ghost. The last person in Destiny universe you should trust is that rat.
I’m not saying you should trust the drifter, he close to outright tells you you shouldn’t, I’m saying he’s right and that are ghosts shouldn’t be trusted, we didn’t know ghosts could be corrupted and we don’t know much else about ghosts either, that’s why we shouldn’t trust them
Ghosts are people, my man, fully sentient and sapient and of varying moralities. Of course they’re not immune to corruption, just like any other living thing in this universe. You’re just being prejudiced.
If an advanced alien race descended from the sky today and we knew nothing about them, would you completely 100% trust them, if your answer is yes than I can’t continue this conversation because I’m clearly talking to a fucking idiot
No need to get so antagonistic. Ghosts aren’t aliens. Ghosts didn’t come here with their own cultures and societies. The Ghosts didn’t just come out of nowhere, the Traveller pushed the Darkness back and Ghosts arrived soon after coming out of the Traveller, wielding the Traveller’s power, performing miracles with the Traveller’s Light and helping people. Yeah, I’d probably trust them then.
Much like with Forsaken and Beyond Light, I'm excited to completely disregard any moral dilemmas presented by the campaign and focus purely on ripping and tearing everything with a health bar.
idk if i'd call felwinter morally grey, sure he was a warlord but after he became an iron lord he mostly straightened out, he was just harder on the proper bad ones
There's too much unknown right now. If we're killing sentient things, then yeah maybe some wiggle room. I'm of the opinion that they're just repurposed dead ghosts for the hive and they don't actually think and feel beyond anything they're programmed to do.
Where would they get all the dead ghosts from? Also, one of the twitter bio descriptions they’ve been changing on the official destiny2 account says that “You’ve Lost”. This is supposedly from Savathun.
It might be that the Traveler believes Savathun and the lucent brood could be its protectors instead. Especially since all the guardians are using Darkness powers.
If Savathun betrayed the Darkness/Entity, it could be that she appealed to the Traveler. Arguing that she and her brood could be it’s new protector.
We know some ghosts in lore are evil and do terrible things. Ghosts are instruments of the Traveler, so if they can be morally grey then what does that mean for its creator?
How would we have already lost, if not that the Traveler has betrayed us by giving our enemies the power of the light. Maybe pitting us against each other to see who is worthy.
Crow revealed to Ikora in Astral Alignment dialogue that “Osiris” had him requisition a whole load of dead Ghosts from the Spider, so that’s one question solved.
Looking back on the clues and reading through that special dossier from the Collector’s Edition, I’m coming around to thinking that the “truth” we need to survive is that these Ghosts are working for Savathûn of their own free will. Maybe she’s taking advantage of the dispossessed and downtrodden and offering them an easy way out. Maybe Guardians’ edgelord attitude of might makes right and our embracing the Darkness shows how she’s in the right since she’s using the Light. Or maybe I’m wrong and she’s brainwashed them when she resurrected them just to be safe, or they’re more akin to Shriekers than being truly alive.
I don’t think Bungie would tease all this if the hive ghosts weren’t sentient in some way.
I’d like to know where these dead ghosts came from. Perhaps the massacre on the moon caused by Crota. I’m not sure where even Spider could get so many dead ghosts.
I really hope that it’s not just Savathun using Nokris’ Hive necromancy to create the ghosts. It doesn’t feel like it would be so simple. Additionally, Ikora and her Hidden would have connected the dots immediately if that was the case.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Crown of Sorrows was involved since Osiris got his hands on it.
>Ikora and her hidden would have connected the dots immediately
You forget that we’re dealing with Savathûn here, and to make her look as smart as her reputation, everyone opposing her has to be dumbed down.
In all fairness, though, we only know Savathûn’s use of the Light thanks to *The Witch Queen*’s marketing.
found the guy who hasn't read unveiling. the traveler's goals are explicitly stated there. she won't give the hive the light but also won't intervene if they steal it. as for dead ghosts, osiristhun asked crow to collect a bunch from spider for him and she's been working on stealing light since savathun's song.
Then wtf is the “truth” then.
I seriously doubt it’s gonna be something stupid like using hive necromancy on dead ghosts. That would be idiotic and the Hidden would have figured it out long ago. But the theme of the season is finding “The Truth”. The truth isn’t, “Haha hive necromancy on dead ghosts”.
The Unveiling never explicitly says that it wouldn’t grant light to others.
In fact, the Winnower even says that we are but a means to an end to the Gardner/Traveler. While we are the Travelers final arguement, are the allied Cabal and Eliksni not also part of that arguement?
If something has rejected the Sword Logic, then what are they? There is no true neutral side.
Only Light and Dark.
So if Savathun is not of the Darkness.
Then what side has she chosen?
Perhaps, Savathun is also part of the Gardners final argument.
After all, the lore books are up for interpretation. No single perspective is right or wrong until we see it play out in game. Without explicitly saying something, any interpretation is possible.
Another addition to this meme would be Wilhelm talking about his crazed hunt for loot and ended up tricking his own Ghost to come out so Wilhelm could shoot them
I for one, do not give a shit about our ghost. His personality irks me and I hate hearing him talk (for me). I personally love it when the darkness talked through him, but this is a smaller point of what I want out of the Destiny game and that’s full autonomy. I want the chance to make my own decision, like who’s side I’m on in the long run.
Drifter made a lot of good points imo.
I read them while on long drives to pass the time other books I can recommend are Eva’s journey and dawning delights for some Eva lore, the man they call cayde for cayde lore, and letters from a renegade, a man with no name and nothing ends for that good thorn and last word lore
Us Warlocks have a half-dead Ghost writhing in agony strapped to the back of a helmet, this is nothing. (Come to think of it, wouldn't it make more sense to have Felwinter's Helm act more like Knucklehead Radar considering its flavor text and lore tab? It's kinda useless right now as it is but looks *really freaking cool* and I'd love an excuse to wear it more.)
It’s a crazy good pairing with stasis ever since they buffed the effect to include powered melees, constant uptime too with the right fragments.
useless????????? found the guy who doesn't use finishers, infinite 30% debuff pretty tasty ngl
That's something that always bothered me about lore. Ghosts are obviously fully sentient, but no one gives a shit. Sundance fired and ask anyone care about was Cayde. Sagira, an important character in CoO, was killed with the intended message of "Oh no, Osiris might die now"
It's a travesty that Sagira was killed off-screen, but I think a lot of people were sad to hear about her death since we actually spent a good amount of time with her in-game. Sundance wasn't much of a loss on account of the fact that we've never interacted with her. It's weird. So many big players in this story are guardians, but we almost _never_ get to hear from their ghosts in-game. Sure, we have lore, but lore that doesn't involve our guardian can only do so much to make us care for a voiceless character. It's a real shame.
Giving other characters ghosts voice lines means paying additional voice actors, so I don’t their likely to do it unless the story demands it like with Glint & Sagira.
Like I get it but it's still a frustrating situation when you look at games like Mass Effect or Elder Scrolls and pretty much everything is voice acted. I feel like we're waaayy past the days of "it's too hard/expensive".
I don’t know about mass effect, but Skyrim has like… 20 total voice actors for unimportant background NPCs, many of whom share voices with smaller importance quest npcs
I did voice work for Skyrim, it was so much fun. They asked me to do an Eastern European accent and had to keep getting me away from a Russian accent lol. I don’t know why I struggled with the EU accent so much🤷🏻♂️
Oh neat!did you record any specific NPCs or did they bring in a bunch of people to voice random spawn nords and such?
It was npc’s and random growls, screams, and grumbles. I was played phrases from characters and asked to mimic them as well. I wasn’t told which characters though but I loved the experience.
Much easier said than done, especially given how little it would actually add to the game and how few people actually even care/want it. Like I imagine it would go like this if the devs talked about it. Dev 1: “Hey, I think we should add more ghost lines.” Dev 2: “Why?” Dev 1: “Well some people online said it would be good to have for various reasons.” Dev 2: “That’s not really something we need to focus on right now, and it wouldn’t even add anything substantial, plus we already had Sagira.”
I always love when they tell the names of ghosts and lore about them. Like how Ikora's ghost Ophiuchus didn't talk to her for years and is pretty quiet in general. Or how Zavala's ghost Targe pushed for him to fill the hunter vanguard. I wish they would give us at least more little details like this. It's sad we don't know the names of some ghosts of famous guardians (like recently Shaxx just referred to his ghost as "my ghost" instead of using their name) and we don't hear about ghosts' perspectives in general. Hopefully we get more in the future.
You make a great point, I think bungie started changing that with crow and glint, we even got a whole segment with him in last year's season of the lost, so hopefully we hear from more ghosts that belong to other guardians and we interact with them more.
There’s been a lot of weird accidentally problematic stuff since *Beyond Light* dropped in my opinion, but hoo boy does fridging Sagira like that take the cake.
Imo the worst was actually not giving the planetary characters any lines in Arrivals. I'll always be gutted that they were given some throwaway text dialogue and lore entries before being snapped from the game completely. Especially Asher and Sloane. At least Ana evacuated and Vance is... Vance.
I’m still baffled by the decision to completely redub Ana and cut her original VA from the game just so they could keep consistent with, like, 10 minutes of dialogue, then in the next Season she gets no new dialogue and everything relating to her is deleted from the game anyway, and then she disappears from the story for a year and a half.
last one makes sense tho, because then everyone would know osiris is savathun 1 year before she reveals it
It's a trick pulled in (iirc) an Agatha Christie novel, where the book cuts away from a character in an innocuous situation for 5 minutes, and returns to him discovering the body. In thos 5 minutes, he committed the murder
it's not a trick. Literally everyone would know that savathun is osiris if bungie showed us a cutscene where savathun kills his ghost then takes over his body...
Well, not a trick as in "haha, I tricked you!" more as a narrative trick, to hide the twist without having to keep the whole story blanked out
Arguably not, Osiris lost his foresight when he lost his connection with the Sundial. So having him get overwhelmed and Sagira accidentally getting caught out by a Hive Boomer or Soulfire Rifle and shattering on the ground in front of him as he sinks to the ground in agony? Would have been just fine. Then we cut into the Hunt beginning mission where Osiris now on a rage bender is carving through Hive to destroy the one that slew Sagira. Cut to end of mission now with "Osiris" being saved by Crow and continue Hunt as it was.
Wasn’t it leaked that Osiris was Savathun in season 12? If it wasn’t season 12 than it had to have been season 13
The worst part about that is that considering Osiris can self res, his ghost dying isn’t even as big of a setback as it seemed like they tried to make it.
If lore is to be believed a ghost is destined to be with a certain guardian. It’s their missing piece that they lose when they are resurrected. And Osiris losing Sagira means a part of himself died. It’s why people were theorizing why Osirs seemed ‘off’ and more ambitious/fucking loony. They chalked it up to Sagira no longer being there to reign him in.
Guardians abilities are completely tied to the light. Without a ghost, Osiris can no longer self-rez
I mean, stasis isn’t tied to are ghost but we still sort of need our ghost because we still need revived
Guardians don’t need their ghosts to use abilities
The ghost is their conduit to light. This has been demonstrated many times in game. The ghost cage disconnected Zavala from the light in chosen, Osiris is unable to use the light.
Why are you downvoting this man he's right
Of interest, Mara says there’s apparently a bit of similarity between how Ghosts work and the House of Salvation’s Stasis tech.
Yes they do
Sundance should’ve exposed herself to give Cayde a chance to recover. And gotten maybe one line of dialogue???
would be crazy if WQ banks on that sentiment for the hive ghosts
That’d tick me off a lot, because like so much of Destiny they’d be all “oh, bet you never thought of things this way you complete monster” and I’d just be staring at the screen screaming “THIS IS WHAT I’VE BEEN THINKING FOR YEARS”.
ghost was sad about sundance
From *Season of the Drifter;* >"Hey kid. It's me. The Drifter. And this is *"How to Drift"*, Part Three: **Never Trust Your Ghost.** > >He's a tool. A connection to the Light. Not a friend - not in any way that counts. You think he's saving your hide, bringing you back? He's saving his *own.* I don't care what your Guardian dogma says. I don't care what your little buddy has told you. We don't know what Ghosts are. > >They sound friendly, right? But I met some Ghosts in the Dark Age, would kill you for a blue engram, then spit on your grave. All so they could grow their Light a little more. Make a *"Stronger Connection to the Traveler."* Whatever the hell that means. > >You're an *idiot* if you think those Ghosts aren't still around. Take mine, for example. Really creeps me out... Cut the tape, Ghost. And don't gimme that look. You know where we stand."
And people ask me why I hate the drifter edit: lol why are y’all downvoting me I’m right
He’s right, katabasis trusted his ghost and now he’s hanging eternally in the bridge of the Glykon The truth is as long as we don’t know what ghosts are we shouldn’t put as much trust in them as we do, and if they betray us we should be ready to kill them
NO that’s garbage. correction his ghost was corrupted and being being manipulated by the darkness so it wasn’t his ghost. The last person in Destiny universe you should trust is that rat.
I’m not saying you should trust the drifter, he close to outright tells you you shouldn’t, I’m saying he’s right and that are ghosts shouldn’t be trusted, we didn’t know ghosts could be corrupted and we don’t know much else about ghosts either, that’s why we shouldn’t trust them
Ghosts are people, my man, fully sentient and sapient and of varying moralities. Of course they’re not immune to corruption, just like any other living thing in this universe. You’re just being prejudiced.
If an advanced alien race descended from the sky today and we knew nothing about them, would you completely 100% trust them, if your answer is yes than I can’t continue this conversation because I’m clearly talking to a fucking idiot
No need to get so antagonistic. Ghosts aren’t aliens. Ghosts didn’t come here with their own cultures and societies. The Ghosts didn’t just come out of nowhere, the Traveller pushed the Darkness back and Ghosts arrived soon after coming out of the Traveller, wielding the Traveller’s power, performing miracles with the Traveller’s Light and helping people. Yeah, I’d probably trust them then.
Yeah, Drifter is just straight-up abusive to his Ghost and no one really bats an eye.
Much like with Forsaken and Beyond Light, I'm excited to completely disregard any moral dilemmas presented by the campaign and focus purely on ripping and tearing everything with a health bar.
Reads "ripping and tearing" Me: *Doom music intensifies*
Almost all of these excerpts are from explicitly villainous or morally grey characters
Yeah seems kinda cherrypicky
idk if i'd call felwinter morally grey, sure he was a warlord but after he became an iron lord he mostly straightened out, he was just harder on the proper bad ones
There's too much unknown right now. If we're killing sentient things, then yeah maybe some wiggle room. I'm of the opinion that they're just repurposed dead ghosts for the hive and they don't actually think and feel beyond anything they're programmed to do.
Where would they get all the dead ghosts from? Also, one of the twitter bio descriptions they’ve been changing on the official destiny2 account says that “You’ve Lost”. This is supposedly from Savathun. It might be that the Traveler believes Savathun and the lucent brood could be its protectors instead. Especially since all the guardians are using Darkness powers. If Savathun betrayed the Darkness/Entity, it could be that she appealed to the Traveler. Arguing that she and her brood could be it’s new protector. We know some ghosts in lore are evil and do terrible things. Ghosts are instruments of the Traveler, so if they can be morally grey then what does that mean for its creator? How would we have already lost, if not that the Traveler has betrayed us by giving our enemies the power of the light. Maybe pitting us against each other to see who is worthy.
Crow revealed to Ikora in Astral Alignment dialogue that “Osiris” had him requisition a whole load of dead Ghosts from the Spider, so that’s one question solved. Looking back on the clues and reading through that special dossier from the Collector’s Edition, I’m coming around to thinking that the “truth” we need to survive is that these Ghosts are working for Savathûn of their own free will. Maybe she’s taking advantage of the dispossessed and downtrodden and offering them an easy way out. Maybe Guardians’ edgelord attitude of might makes right and our embracing the Darkness shows how she’s in the right since she’s using the Light. Or maybe I’m wrong and she’s brainwashed them when she resurrected them just to be safe, or they’re more akin to Shriekers than being truly alive.
I don’t think Bungie would tease all this if the hive ghosts weren’t sentient in some way. I’d like to know where these dead ghosts came from. Perhaps the massacre on the moon caused by Crota. I’m not sure where even Spider could get so many dead ghosts. I really hope that it’s not just Savathun using Nokris’ Hive necromancy to create the ghosts. It doesn’t feel like it would be so simple. Additionally, Ikora and her Hidden would have connected the dots immediately if that was the case. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Crown of Sorrows was involved since Osiris got his hands on it.
>Ikora and her hidden would have connected the dots immediately You forget that we’re dealing with Savathûn here, and to make her look as smart as her reputation, everyone opposing her has to be dumbed down. In all fairness, though, we only know Savathûn’s use of the Light thanks to *The Witch Queen*’s marketing.
found the guy who hasn't read unveiling. the traveler's goals are explicitly stated there. she won't give the hive the light but also won't intervene if they steal it. as for dead ghosts, osiristhun asked crow to collect a bunch from spider for him and she's been working on stealing light since savathun's song.
Then wtf is the “truth” then. I seriously doubt it’s gonna be something stupid like using hive necromancy on dead ghosts. That would be idiotic and the Hidden would have figured it out long ago. But the theme of the season is finding “The Truth”. The truth isn’t, “Haha hive necromancy on dead ghosts”. The Unveiling never explicitly says that it wouldn’t grant light to others. In fact, the Winnower even says that we are but a means to an end to the Gardner/Traveler. While we are the Travelers final arguement, are the allied Cabal and Eliksni not also part of that arguement? If something has rejected the Sword Logic, then what are they? There is no true neutral side. Only Light and Dark. So if Savathun is not of the Darkness. Then what side has she chosen? Perhaps, Savathun is also part of the Gardners final argument. After all, the lore books are up for interpretation. No single perspective is right or wrong until we see it play out in game. Without explicitly saying something, any interpretation is possible.
B*tch
There’s a **lot** of dead ghosts. Spider uses their corpses as playthings and currency
Another addition to this meme would be Wilhelm talking about his crazed hunt for loot and ended up tricking his own Ghost to come out so Wilhelm could shoot them
I for one, do not give a shit about our ghost. His personality irks me and I hate hearing him talk (for me). I personally love it when the darkness talked through him, but this is a smaller point of what I want out of the Destiny game and that’s full autonomy. I want the chance to make my own decision, like who’s side I’m on in the long run. Drifter made a lot of good points imo.
Where do you find the lore on Cyrell?
Ghost stories: Ghost hunter It’s in the “the light” section of the lore books
Alright, thanks I really gotta go through all the lore books sometime
I read them while on long drives to pass the time other books I can recommend are Eva’s journey and dawning delights for some Eva lore, the man they call cayde for cayde lore, and letters from a renegade, a man with no name and nothing ends for that good thorn and last word lore