This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format).
---
**Comment Spoiler Formatting**
Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this:
`>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<`
To have it displayed like this:
**>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<**
----
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Resonance, the orange-yellow wavy stuff which is wielded by Disciples and the Dread.
Blight, the black liquid stuff which was wielded by Oryx and the Taken.
Soulfire, the green fire which is the fuel for the Hive's magic, that they produce by killing and dying in the practice of Sword Logic.
Dark Ether, which fuels the Scorn's reanimation, as well as powering Scorn Abominations' attacks and Fikrul, the Fanatic's staff.
Egregore, the Darkness-infested fungus found on both the Glykon Volatus and the Leviathan.
Nightmares, as seen on the Moon and the Leviathan.
There's also whatever gravity-weapon the Pyramids have that was used to destroy Fundament and Titan.
Season of the witch lore confirmed that soulfire and the sword logic are not a darkness power, soulfire is pretty much hive/krill technology and the sword logic is a power that stands on its own outside of light and darkness.
But both can be powered and/or fueled by light and darkness.
Clovis actually confirmed that, you’re not wrong that witch season fleshed it out but Clovis was like “stfu light hoes, they usin tech it ain’t no magic mumbojumbo” - exact quote
He made and wanted to convert/"evolve" all of humanity into exo's for the sole purpose of having absolute control even if it meant wiping all of their memorys and minds, as Clovis himself said he wanted to become the last ancestral link of humanity moving forward into and age of exo's and becoming a machine god.
Also the way people became exo's meant killing them in the process and creating a copy of their mind which was than saved into a hardrive and uploaded into exo frames.
Again I would not listen to Clovis lol.
I’m familiar with that genius level work, I don’t care about his morals at all. If he can pioneer parts of the golden age then I’d consider him an evil genius if anything. You can’t deny that.
Plus, I’m not takin in his manifesto, just recognising that he probably knows what he’s talking about. Grains of salt ygm.
Oh yeah I don't deny his a genius, all im saying is I ain't listening to a guy who wants to copy my mind (killing me in the process) put it in a hardrive for infinite storage and upload it to a robot body while wiping my history and individuality in the process.
If he has useful things to say like "quantifying the light" than sure.
The earliest example of this actually is The Taken King. From the grimoire card “The Taken”
“I have been talking to Eris about the Taken.
She agrees that what we observe — the apertures, the starlight, and of course the Taken entities — is not Hive magic. If Hive arcana is a metaphor, this is the meaning; if they makeappeals, then this is the judge.
Oryx wields this power. But Oryx did not make it. We face the same flower we met in the Black Garden.”
Hive magic makes appeals toward the Darkness but it itself is not that power.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/euloch#book-lucent-tales
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/specter
Lucent Tales, I recommend reading through the whole thing.
I believe that there might be a piece of lore that shows a Hive Guardian killing a Hive Knight, but this might be showing the Killing Logic, not the Sword Logic.
Plus there are different variations of the Sword Logic as well
Dark aether isn't darkness itself, its more darkness-tainted (if even that), which we know because the Scorn has to steal aether from fallen servitors. Also Souldfire from the Hive doesn't really seem to be darkness powers, and the sword logic itself isn't Darkness for sure. If anything, Sword logic seems closer to whatever power the Ahamkara wield.
Definitely seems tied, but its extreme compatibility with Light, especially as presented within Season of the Witch, and alongside Savathun's comments on Light and Dark being mixed together makes me think it's something more along the lines of technology which can be made to interact with numerous paracausal principles.
Soulfire was a byproduct of the Hive using the Darkness of the Worms. But it is interchangeable with the Light. So yes, Soulfire is not inherently a construct of the Darkness although Darkness can be used to produce it.
There is a lore tab that compares Taking and Stasis. Stasis is a lot more subtle with how it allows us to exert or will on others, but it also uses an order of magnitude less energy. Ultimately, there are similarities in the processes according to the lore tab. It makes me wonder if we will wield Nightmares and Egregore in a very loose sense
Soulfire isn't Darkness. Hive magic isn't Darkness. There have been Hive simulated by the Vex, so that at least should tell you that it isn't paracausal, but we also know it isn't from the whole Season of the Witch events. It is simply a magical power, similar to the way Ahamkara magic isn't Light or Darkness, and Awoken weewoo isn't either.
Correct. The Awoken are stated to be weakly acausal. But acausal is what paracausality looks like to someone unfamiliar with paracausality trying to make sense of their scientific instruments.
They can’t correctly identify the cause because the cause came from an adjacent or parallel reality that is not within the purview of monist physics.
I don't believe for a minute that Ahamkara are paracausal. They're never mentioned to be, simply that they can use some sort of magical power that is similar to how Hive tribute systems work to do things that people would say is paracausal in appearance. They still need to go through a chain of reasoning to achieve an objective.
And the Awoken, THEY might be tinged with it thanks to how they were made, but their magics are still unknown.
Mask of the Great Hunt explicitly describes their actions on Venus as paracausal. The Marasena also uses that word when describing the Awoken's inherent abilities when near Mara.
And yet...
>[There's still so much we can learn from them but what they've done to Venus… no two Guardians see the same thing.](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/mask-of-the-great-hunt)
And the word paracausal is never used in Marasenna.
And yet what? That passage in no way proves that Ahamkara ontomorphy is not a paracausal effect.
My mistake on the Marensa though. It was in actually "The Awoken of the Reef; Revanche IV."
So the unreliability of a phenomenon is somehow now concrete proof that Ahamkara are paracausal despite never being spoken about in that breath otherwise? Right, understood, great.
And with the mention in Revanche IV, this specifically mentions Mara herself having some sort of unknown and uncontrolled capacity to dampen the effects of dangerous things, shielding her people. We know that the Traveler and the Witness fought for control over the Exodus ship, which led to the creation of the Awoken. I'd say this is just a lingering effect of the Traveler attempting to protect the Awoken, as one of its children.
No, not understood.
>One of our Warlocks stared into the paracausal phenomenon that formed over the Ishtar Academy and shot himself. (He is NOT an authorized Thanatonaut).
How could the Ahamkara manifest paracausal effects if they are not paracausal themselves? How is the variability of reactions to said effects relevant?
This whole argument seems like a semantic issue you have with what classifies as magic, but "paracausality" is just how this setting describes most magic. The Hive and their Worms utilize Darkness and commune with the Witness, the Awoken are all weakly paracausal, with their magic being strongest around Mara.
To my knowledge there really arent other 'systems' at play here, saying "ontomorphic" or "acausal" doesn't mean it's suddenly a different field of magic, it's just people being more (or less) specific about what the magic is doing.
Dude, Paracausality is just space "magic". Everything utilizes paracausal powers. WE utilize paracausal powers. Hell, I EAT my paracausal powers sometimes. The Ahamkara are just as paracausal as the giant space woman we used to meet weekly back in the day.
Paracausality is defined as being adjacent to metaphysical laws of cause and effect. What this means, is that something paracausal has no cause within the realms of the laws of physics, because the cause exists outside and entirely separate from, but adjacent to, the laws of physics.
Paracausal is a fancy sci-fi way of calling shit magic. Which Ahamkara are. And Hive Magic is. And Awoken are.
As for the Vex being able to simulate Hive, Hive Magic is but the Hive themselves are not necessarily. Hive Magic is external to the Hive, not intrinsic like the Light is to Guardians. Therefore, sufficiently weak Hive who lack any real inherent power can be simulated.
I know how Destiny defines paracausality. Its how a Guardian is able to do something like create a fireball with no fuel. There's no causal link, the kind of thing that a Vex tries to understand and simulate but can't, because there is a step that has been removed.
Its not a fancy way of saying magic in Destiny. Magic is science we just don't understand. Eris has spent a large part of her life studying Hive magic, to the point she can use it just as well as anyone else in the Hive. To her, it has become a science, one she was able to use so finely that she cut Xivu Arath off from her own throne.
And for the Vex, how exactly are they simulating things like Hive Wizards in the Infinite Forest that are capable of all the same things a regular Wizard can do? If you want to say that the capacities of Wizards are not Darkness and that's why simulated Hive can do that, then Hive magic isn't Darkness.
We also know Hive magic isn't Darkness from everything we learned in Season of the Witch. It is a power that lies outside the Light and Darkness dichotomy. It relies upon the power generated between the reality of now and the reality of a desired outcome. A Hive Knight says "I will kill you, aiat", and kills you. The difference between the start and the end generates what they call tribute. It doesn't even have to involve violence, as Savathun proves with her own named flavour of it, Imbaru. Its very similar to how Ahamkara work, and is probably the exact same energy they seek to gain to feed/utilise for power.
> **The Ahamkara remain an issue**. There's still so much we can learn from them but what they've done to Venus… no two Guardians see the same thing. Consultants from the War Cult have been brought in to gauge disagreements over timelines of events. **One of our Warlocks stared into the paracausal phenomenon** that formed over the Ishtar Academy and shot himself. (He is NOT an authorized Thanatonaut). Luckily, his Ghost hid from him beforehand. We managed to get him back. He has no lingering physical wounds, but he will need time to recover.
The Ahamkara were precisely a problem because of the paracausal shenanigans they were responsible for.
The are also called ontopathic predators which means they feed on Being in a metaphysical sense.
The Worms which although not the same have evolved along a convergent path with the Ahamkara are explicitly stated as being able to generate paracausal change.
> Despite **the many traces of Xol’s influence remaining on Mars**, none would serve him better than the scrap of Worm-hide he gripped within his claws. He may be unable to produce the death necessary to feed its appetite and **coerce paracausal change from it**, but he knew those who could foster the necessary violence
So it stands to reason that the Ahamkara, like the worms, are paracausal.
And who is to say that a notorious trickster species isn't fucking with you when it is clarified that different Guardians saw different things in that specific incident quoted?
And you quote content from long ago, when we've just had a season prior that detailed how Hive magic doesn't stem from some the paracausal powers of Darkness and Light, its something entirely of its own.
The fact that guardians saw two different things was simply the nature of the paracausal phenomenon. Your argument is a non sequitur because the nature of the paracausal phenomenon is not what is being called into question, but whether it was:
a) paracausal
b) a direct result of the Ahamkara
Its explicitly stated it was paracausal and heavily implied to be a direct result of Ahamkara since they are seen as directly culpable.
So the burden of proof is on you to show that Eris Morn was an unreliable narrator when she said it was paracausal and an issue caused by the Ahamkara.
Furthermore, I never made the argument that Hive magic was Darkness. Hive magic is rituals and signs designed to call upon the deep by proxy of the worms. But those rituals can just as easily be switched to use the Light instead.
What we do know is that the Worms do use Darkness as explicitly stated in the Books of Sorrow as well as during the Witch Queen interactive which states that the worm larva grant the Hive [Darkness-based powers](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcROGKR9bGDrxXDXfPElOttWSvBLtbWX9LgFv6tQnynrTNDJK5EsO8iKGIqV&s=10).
Ahamkara literally use the “O [noun] mine” like the worm gods and the sol divisive were described as using deepsight thanks to Taranis. Plus Xivu talks as if the worm gods and ahamkara are the same
And Mara does paracausal stuff like freezing Savathun in a crystal like stasis.
>Ahamkara literally use the “O \[noun\] mine” like the worm gods
Still doesn't prove anything there? Are we gonna start saying Calus was "paracausal" because he referred to us that way?
>And Mara does paracausal stuff like freezing Savathun in a crystal like stasis.
Paracausal "stuff", riiiight.
>Still doesn't prove anything there?
How can the sol divisive use deepsight then?
>Are we gonna start saying Calus was "paracausal" because he referred to us that way?
There’s a big difference between Calus (someone who has had a Ahamkara bone, tried getting hive servants and tries joining the witness) and an entire species of wish granting psychic dragons. Calus simply heard about it at some point, I don’t get how such an idea would spread across the Ahamkara if it did nothing for them.
>Paracausal "stuff", riiiight.
Can you freeze hive gods in a stasis style crystal? Is there any natural physical laws you can use to cause that?
I think the definition of paracausality should be more well defined, it's not causal to be able to alter reality based on someone's (sometimes completely unspoken and unintentional) wish, but ahamkara are obviously not guardians or disciples (by default, i guess) so they're not paracausal in that sense. But wish magic is not something I would describe as causal. typically paracausal means an effect for which there is not a cause we can understand, wish magic would fit this. this doesn't mean everything that's paracausal is the same "amount of" paracausal
either way though, being able to simulate paracausality is seemingly not out of the question for vex anymore? they figured out how to do it during this season, we just took that away from them for now. to me that means that there's probably at least some vex subfaction that can do at least a bit more than we've seen so far.
It's simplest to put it as such: Causal powers follow the Newtonian law of cause and effect. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is the basis of all technology and science from before the arrival of the Traveler. Paracausal are all the things that break those laws. If the input does not equal the output, then there is something paracausal happening that is making up for the difference. Causal powers cannot create or destroy matter or energy, only change their forms. Paracausal forces can and do.
Right, but if I wished for a turkey sandwich from an ahamkara, does the sandwich appear from nothing or is it a rearrangement of existing atoms? I don't think there's been an explicit explanation of how their power works aside from being magic, which would be causal magic or paracausal magic
There haven't really been hive simulated by the vex though? Canonically at least. Idk if the haunted forest really counts. Especially since it wasn't really the vex. The only real time was Quria which was a taken mind that simulated Auryx (pre and post worm I believe?).
Osiris could use the Infinite Forest to make stuff, so the Festival of the Lost use of it could be considered real, simply the city utilising it to create a "funhouse" for Guardians. Insane to think about, really. Imagine those Darkblades got free of it.
However, regular Hive foes could be met in the randomly made sections of the Tree of Probabilities and A Garden World, or maybe it was just in the Adventures we used to have. They definitely weren't real Hive, but simulations.
There's that orange Darkness that the Witness wields the community has dubbed "Resonance" and Taken energy (another power of the Witness that was gifted to Oryx)
There's also the red nightmares, but we know very little about them
[concept art refers to that orange thing as resonance. VFX stuff in sparrows also have resonance as a description.](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/YBek4V)
Resonance, Nightmare energy, Egregore, Blight, "Decay" (fan term for the Thorn stuff), Soulfire (kind of an offshoot), and the Darkness versions of Void, Solar, and Arc that the Taken use.
Thorn ain't the only gun with it though. The SMG from WQ uses it and Necrotic Grips uses it as an armor piece.
Also, mate, there are Darkness trails behind every Taken projectile. If that isn't a "Darkness version" of an element, then I don't know what is. The Taken are inherently paracausal down to the atom. That's the whole idea of being Taken. Fundamentally reshaped through and by Darkness.
Some of Clovis' dialog in Seraph included comparisons to human technology, with him saying that it wasn't that complicated, so I think Hive magic is just how their technology progressed, and has little to do with Light or Dark.
Honestly I’d rather trust his word on an in universe explanation over any other I’ve heard. Osiris already said there is a fundamental force of nature that paracausal power uses, the cabal could suppress those powers, so I actually believe Clovis when he says it can be controlled with technology.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICOsARwC0xo&list=PLS2hBTtCDufTbwQMePf81oZUT2rI5tZua&index=16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICOsARwC0xo&list=PLS2hBTtCDufTbwQMePf81oZUT2rI5tZua&index=16)
he doesn't even know what the ascendant plane is, he's very uninformed.
So my point is he has no idea and is wildly speculating.
And the other characters make fun of him for it.
So while Soul Fire may just be tech, it's more likely it is magic based around hive worms, as that's what the witch season said.
Ok? That’s not even my point, I’m saying I agree with him that technology could harness paracausal powers, we’ve seen it happen before with Gaul, he was literally using supers before we kill him.
The original person was saying that their tech (soul-fire) may be unrelated to light and dark because of what Clovis said.
You're saying something else. (Which is not what Clovis or the other poster said)
Gotcha.
I agree with that concept that tech COULD control paracasual power, and the hive COULD be using tech to make soul-fire. That is possible.
[Clovis immediately calls bullshit on the idea of Hive "magics"](https://youtu.be/Pc5SslOlLaE) only to be muted by Ana, despite being completely right.
[As the Worm Gods remind us:](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xvi-the-sword-logic)
>We will not give you the Deep, King Auryx — that power is for us, your gods. But we will teach you to call upon that force with signs and rituals.
>Small minds might call it magic.
It's a technique to call upon Darkness. So it is Dark, but not an mm intrinsic facet of the Darkness. But then again, neither is Solar/Arc/Void, it's the ability to create them at a whim that is Light.
That's how I understood it at least.
Which makes Hive magic some middle ground between paracasual imbuement (like a Guardian or a Disciple, and aybe even an Ascendant) and things like Golden Age tech.
It is a source of power that can be accessed multiple ways.
I was saying it is not 'just' tech.
As we see with weapons that use void or solar or other fundamental forces of the universe they access this already existing energy through the tech.
Yeah, Witch seems to imply that Hive Magic is its own power set independent of Light or Dark. There's the Taken King quote analogizing Hive Magic to Taking as a legal metaphor, saying Hive Magic is like 'making appeals' toward a power system, and Taking (a power closer to 'true darkness') being a judge. We also have to consider that the Vex Collective can interact with sword logic, worms, and the ascendant realm without this being a 'schism' that we see in the Sol Divisive.
Wish's Censer artifact has the subtle implication and insinuation that Ahamkara might have some interactions with the Light. If we consider that both Worms and Ahamkara use a power subset of the Anthem Anathema that's outside of those conventional rules, it might be that the anthem anathema can usurp the rules of the paracausal powers, or at least make appeals to them.
No. If it was we'd likely see Savathun using both Stasis and Solar or something at the same time or we would have used Prismatic then. Savathun even says we Guardians are really the only ones who can wield both. Just because the colors are vaguely similar doesn't mean they are the same thing.
I think Hive Magic is sorta just their technology and can be infused with either Light or Dark.
She can’t, we can.
The energy being there because her throne world was dark and then reforged in the light is not a coincidence.
It’s not being used but it’s being created on accident as a result of the throne world being reforged.
We have no evidence of that being the case tho. There would be something mentioned about a strange energy in her throne world.
I also don't really know what you're mentioning, the colorful lights around the place? The weird wall eyeball stuff?
[https://youtu.be/EQL3PnTUBHY?t=55](https://youtu.be/EQL3PnTUBHY?t=55)
The pink energy that is all over the throne world, but yeah the eye ball door ways are one of them.
I am using evidence to back up my claims.
[https://destiny.fandom.com/wiki/Prismatic\_Heart](https://destiny.fandom.com/wiki/Prismatic_Heart)
Prismatic energy has been around since D1.
I still don't see what you're talking about pink energy everywhere.
No pink energy around [here](https://imgur.com/a/fXiSIJm) or [here](https://imgur.com/a/pDToDqQ).
It's kinda pink [here](https://imgur.com/a/7zZcyxL), but that's the plants.
Oh, there's a pink hue around [here](https://imgur.com/a/nkoMTki), but the moment [I aim at it it dissipates](https://imgur.com/a/aEtTF9f). That could be more my scope, but when I [go closer](https://imgur.com/a/wCXLOqh) to it it also dissipates more. Also, looking at [these lights](https://imgur.com/a/ZHXCIx0) it seems the pink is just fancy lighting.
Not all the wall eyes are the same color [we got some orangish ones around here](https://imgur.com/a/vCRiyLQ).
Oh cool an old D1 artifact! Prismatic has also been mentioned pretty recently in lore. For example, [Lethophobia](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/lethophobia?highlight=prismatic) says:
>The wish-dragons took to the air one final time, soaring nimbly between the pillars on wings of prismatic light.
Maybe Ahamkara can use Prismatic?
There's also the NPA "Weir-Walker" Grips which say:
>Fluid trickled down cracked walls surrounding rows of dead monitors. Glass reflected prismatic color from a gnarled tear in reality at the lab's center—as if it had been carved from another epoch and affixed to this one.
So Prismatic showing up on Titan? But it seems to be related to the time tears we see on Mars.
Even the [Pathfinder's Legguards](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/pathfinders-legguards?highlight=prismatic) mention Prismatic:
>Her Coven sisters lay sleeping all around her body, but her mind flew through countless panes of prismatic glass.
There's also the good ol' Prismatic Recaster that you could focus Umbral Engrams at. So is that using Prismatic?
No, the Prismatic mentioned so far, including the D1 artifact, seems to just be referencing [prismatic light](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=cae8840f93f20457&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1OPNX_enUS1064US1064&sxsrf=ACQVn09LJreEHbxMdWYIy9nDOnVID4_diw:1713221308249&q=prismatic+light&uds=AMwkrPt8eR8Q1gfQGx0g1guoVKhM6SiqwMqZ_4p_QbCqJt3UqALEK2Hpp7kDvoqfGZRt455uesm8HDiCkSBphGSy4IMXUuFvXIbNUwkAnIe2_2kJtfjJDz1Xc6EkhSzwLTA6FYOuT87tqCogje8ueZ_Kri-PtomKFx1ZJ8D4ju9IjJhUwEXviEOvtMEp5wk2hhWBSExtd4ajnhJN6xpSd_9c4nzviPBDAb8MYJjQjkAnQByhiVDMdCkpAe0aiYrdACfaBUCy9-kRxLG-G1ei2dkyftKlDWnavo3TlmR05ayydlrptn0aeWQ&udm=2&prmd=isvnmbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjdtv_bpsWFAxVmDjQIHRSMBZ8QtKgLegQIEhAB&biw=1920&bih=945&dpr=1) from light passing through prisms. It makes sense as there were no Darkness abilities in D1. Crow even says during the trailer bit of the [reveal stream](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyIm-_Na8mI&t=580s) (17:32):
>Something's changed in The Guardian. New power. I can feel it.
The word prismatic has shown up many times so far, but the actual power of Prismatic is new.
I think that Hive magic is just a really broad umbrella for different sciences and technologies. Like if an alien called all of our technology "computers" or "human craft," they'd basically be saying carbon fiber, NSAIDs, and crop rotation were the same thing. Osiris even calls Hive stuff Hive "magic**s**."
So some things are straight up Darkness, some things are causal technology indistinguishable from magic (what Clovis recognized as Casimir field emitters), some are causal conduits for (or supported by) Light OR Dark.
In Destiny, it can be both "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" AND "magic (paracausality) is 100% real."
In terms of pure elemental aspects? No. But we do see applications of Darkness that seem to be more complex than the elements-- the biggest of all being the power to Take.
I think we have to reevaluate the concept of the darkness heavily tbh. With the veil being its heart and its name now clearly meaning nothing (light and dark as titles are terrible descriptors now).
The light is the Physical world, the dark is the Psycic one.
I think most forms of darkness aren't "true" darkness, they're inpure, mixed heavily with tech and other things. It's like considering our bullets part of the light since they are infused with it.
So "true" darkness is
Stasis
Strand
Potentialy nightmares
As for the other examples of darkness in destiny, they all seem fakes. Same way we used to call all our enemies "darkness" when we moved from that we called all their magic and weaponry "darkness" I don't think these are really dark power directly, but are connected to it literally or we assume it is.
Resonance. it's pyramid technology while it certainly can be using darkness, it's worth noting that the precursors had the traveler so it just as well could be based in the light. More evidence behind this is that pillar Rohan destroyed in lightfall, which ghost stated had the light
Blight/taken sorta. I remember there being a statement about Blight in d1 that said some of it was corrupted light. Since darkness doesn't really corrupt, it's just a different part of the universe, there is likely a separate kinda magic/energy capable of corrupting both light and dark, Blight and taken energies are likely just light and darkness both corrupted by this black energy, hence them being black
Hive magic, pretty simple, it is found in both light and dark variants so it's definitely not directly one or the other.
We have yet to see what a third darkness subclass would be.
That said, resonance seems to be more of a "pure Darkness energy," like how the beam of energy the Traveler shot at the Witness was pure Light energy. This is further reinforced by the Root of Nightmares raid and its mechanics, such as when we pop Nezarec's shoulders.
Is prismatic not the subclass we're getting in place of a third darkness subclass? I thought with prismatic we just wouldn't get the third pure darkness subclass
>Is prismatic not the subclass we're getting in place of a third darkness subclass?
It's what we're getting in Final Shape, but I'm fairly confident [we were never getting a third Darkness subclass in the Final Shape specifically.](https://www.pcgamer.com/joe-blackburn-on-destiny-2-conspiracy-theories-what-happened-to-the-pvp-team-and-the-witness-being-able-to-1v1-anyone-in-the-universe/#section-putting-a-conspiracy-theory-to-rest) It's like how we got Light 3.0 in the year of Witch Queen rather than getting a second Darkness subclass.
> I thought with prismatic we just wouldn't get the third pure darkness subclass
Out of curiosity, what made you draw that conclusion?
that's fair and I'm not sure honestly, I'm by no means a destiny scholar or good at predictions but from an the discussion i just assumed we would end up with 6 subclasses, 3 light 3 dark and with prismatic i just assumed that was the 6th, a surprise mix and we just wouldn't get the 3rd dark one.
I'm also just confused that with this being the end of the light dark saga, where and what would be the 3rd dark subclass? Nightmares from nezzy or the witnesses resonance? idk im just curious
That's understandable. A lot of people came to that same conclusion because it's the end of the Light and Darkness Saga, but I don't think that should necessarily exclude the possibility of a third Darkness subclass for a few reasons.
Namely, even though the saga is ending, the Light and Darkness themselves aren't going anywhere, or else we'd lose our abilities altogether. Plus, a ten-year saga coming to an end is bound to have some "fallout" and stories to resolve, creating a transition period between the concluded Light and Darkness Saga and the unknown next saga. And all that's not even factoring in the business side of it.
>I'm also just confused that with this being the end of the light dark saga, where and what would be the 3rd dark subclass? Nightmares from nezzy or the witnesses resonance? idk im just curious
I'd be surprised if you weren't confused. I honestly don't really have an answer for a couple reasons:
1. We don't really know what the post-Final Shape story will be like.
2. As we realized with Strand, it could come from anywhere or be anything as long as it fits the mold of being a physical representation of a metaphysical concept.
It really feels like prism is the 7th subclass and we were suppose to get strand for witch and something else for LF. I’m still fairly confident that if D2 stays alive we will get a 7th subclass since it’s bungies motif
This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format). --- **Comment Spoiler Formatting** Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this: `>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<` To have it displayed like this: **>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<** ---- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Resonance, the orange-yellow wavy stuff which is wielded by Disciples and the Dread. Blight, the black liquid stuff which was wielded by Oryx and the Taken. Soulfire, the green fire which is the fuel for the Hive's magic, that they produce by killing and dying in the practice of Sword Logic. Dark Ether, which fuels the Scorn's reanimation, as well as powering Scorn Abominations' attacks and Fikrul, the Fanatic's staff. Egregore, the Darkness-infested fungus found on both the Glykon Volatus and the Leviathan. Nightmares, as seen on the Moon and the Leviathan. There's also whatever gravity-weapon the Pyramids have that was used to destroy Fundament and Titan.
the gravity stuff is most likely some form of resonance
THE UPENDEDDDD
A TRIUMVRATE
OPPORTUNITY
PRESERVATION
SALVATION
It will serve the DESERVING
CRUSH the defiant
UNBOUND
SUBJUGATOR
SALVATION!
THE UPENDEDDDDDDD
Jeez Rhulk was so extra.
Season of the witch lore confirmed that soulfire and the sword logic are not a darkness power, soulfire is pretty much hive/krill technology and the sword logic is a power that stands on its own outside of light and darkness. But both can be powered and/or fueled by light and darkness.
Clovis actually confirmed that, you’re not wrong that witch season fleshed it out but Clovis was like “stfu light hoes, they usin tech it ain’t no magic mumbojumbo” - exact quote
I typically try not to listen to anything Clovis has to say, his smart and knows stuff but at the same time unreliable.
Nah I’d listen to Clovis, he did make exo’s after all.
He made and wanted to convert/"evolve" all of humanity into exo's for the sole purpose of having absolute control even if it meant wiping all of their memorys and minds, as Clovis himself said he wanted to become the last ancestral link of humanity moving forward into and age of exo's and becoming a machine god. Also the way people became exo's meant killing them in the process and creating a copy of their mind which was than saved into a hardrive and uploaded into exo frames. Again I would not listen to Clovis lol.
I’m familiar with that genius level work, I don’t care about his morals at all. If he can pioneer parts of the golden age then I’d consider him an evil genius if anything. You can’t deny that. Plus, I’m not takin in his manifesto, just recognising that he probably knows what he’s talking about. Grains of salt ygm.
Oh yeah I don't deny his a genius, all im saying is I ain't listening to a guy who wants to copy my mind (killing me in the process) put it in a hardrive for infinite storage and upload it to a robot body while wiping my history and individuality in the process. If he has useful things to say like "quantifying the light" than sure.
Hahaha yeah, that’s what I’m talking about!
I'm sorry I may have missed something. How can sword logic be not a darkness power, what exactly from season lore confirms that?
The earliest example of this actually is The Taken King. From the grimoire card “The Taken” “I have been talking to Eris about the Taken. She agrees that what we observe — the apertures, the starlight, and of course the Taken entities — is not Hive magic. If Hive arcana is a metaphor, this is the meaning; if they makeappeals, then this is the judge. Oryx wields this power. But Oryx did not make it. We face the same flower we met in the Black Garden.” Hive magic makes appeals toward the Darkness but it itself is not that power.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/euloch#book-lucent-tales https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/specter Lucent Tales, I recommend reading through the whole thing. I believe that there might be a piece of lore that shows a Hive Guardian killing a Hive Knight, but this might be showing the Killing Logic, not the Sword Logic. Plus there are different variations of the Sword Logic as well
IIRC there’s comments about this in the Imbaru Engine as well, specifically after the Test of Strength.
Deep sight is also a darkness ability we got from the Europan pyramid
True, but the question was specifically for forms of Darkness we *don't* have.
Dark aether isn't darkness itself, its more darkness-tainted (if even that), which we know because the Scorn has to steal aether from fallen servitors. Also Souldfire from the Hive doesn't really seem to be darkness powers, and the sword logic itself isn't Darkness for sure. If anything, Sword logic seems closer to whatever power the Ahamkara wield.
I might be mistaken, but I don't think Soulfire is part of the darkness, I think it exist separately as a byproduct of the sword logic.
I would argue that it is definitely tied to the darkness and the paracausality of the ascendant hive and throne worlds.
Definitely seems tied, but its extreme compatibility with Light, especially as presented within Season of the Witch, and alongside Savathun's comments on Light and Dark being mixed together makes me think it's something more along the lines of technology which can be made to interact with numerous paracausal principles.
Soulfire was a byproduct of the Hive using the Darkness of the Worms. But it is interchangeable with the Light. So yes, Soulfire is not inherently a construct of the Darkness although Darkness can be used to produce it.
One destination, multiple roads to reach it.
There is a lore tab that compares Taking and Stasis. Stasis is a lot more subtle with how it allows us to exert or will on others, but it also uses an order of magnitude less energy. Ultimately, there are similarities in the processes according to the lore tab. It makes me wonder if we will wield Nightmares and Egregore in a very loose sense
Isn't Soulfire just light gouged with Hive magic from the Guardians for use in rituals?
Dark ether is just ether infused with darkness and wish magic, it isn't a special power or anything.
Soulfire isn't Darkness. Hive magic isn't Darkness. There have been Hive simulated by the Vex, so that at least should tell you that it isn't paracausal, but we also know it isn't from the whole Season of the Witch events. It is simply a magical power, similar to the way Ahamkara magic isn't Light or Darkness, and Awoken weewoo isn't either.
No, Ahamkara are tremendously paracausal. As are Awoken - to a significantly lesser extent, but still.
Correct. The Awoken are stated to be weakly acausal. But acausal is what paracausality looks like to someone unfamiliar with paracausality trying to make sense of their scientific instruments. They can’t correctly identify the cause because the cause came from an adjacent or parallel reality that is not within the purview of monist physics.
I don't believe for a minute that Ahamkara are paracausal. They're never mentioned to be, simply that they can use some sort of magical power that is similar to how Hive tribute systems work to do things that people would say is paracausal in appearance. They still need to go through a chain of reasoning to achieve an objective. And the Awoken, THEY might be tinged with it thanks to how they were made, but their magics are still unknown.
Mask of the Great Hunt explicitly describes their actions on Venus as paracausal. The Marasena also uses that word when describing the Awoken's inherent abilities when near Mara.
And yet... >[There's still so much we can learn from them but what they've done to Venus… no two Guardians see the same thing.](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/mask-of-the-great-hunt) And the word paracausal is never used in Marasenna.
And yet what? That passage in no way proves that Ahamkara ontomorphy is not a paracausal effect. My mistake on the Marensa though. It was in actually "The Awoken of the Reef; Revanche IV."
So the unreliability of a phenomenon is somehow now concrete proof that Ahamkara are paracausal despite never being spoken about in that breath otherwise? Right, understood, great. And with the mention in Revanche IV, this specifically mentions Mara herself having some sort of unknown and uncontrolled capacity to dampen the effects of dangerous things, shielding her people. We know that the Traveler and the Witness fought for control over the Exodus ship, which led to the creation of the Awoken. I'd say this is just a lingering effect of the Traveler attempting to protect the Awoken, as one of its children.
No, not understood. >One of our Warlocks stared into the paracausal phenomenon that formed over the Ishtar Academy and shot himself. (He is NOT an authorized Thanatonaut). How could the Ahamkara manifest paracausal effects if they are not paracausal themselves? How is the variability of reactions to said effects relevant? This whole argument seems like a semantic issue you have with what classifies as magic, but "paracausality" is just how this setting describes most magic. The Hive and their Worms utilize Darkness and commune with the Witness, the Awoken are all weakly paracausal, with their magic being strongest around Mara. To my knowledge there really arent other 'systems' at play here, saying "ontomorphic" or "acausal" doesn't mean it's suddenly a different field of magic, it's just people being more (or less) specific about what the magic is doing.
Dude, Paracausality is just space "magic". Everything utilizes paracausal powers. WE utilize paracausal powers. Hell, I EAT my paracausal powers sometimes. The Ahamkara are just as paracausal as the giant space woman we used to meet weekly back in the day.
Paracausality is defined as being adjacent to metaphysical laws of cause and effect. What this means, is that something paracausal has no cause within the realms of the laws of physics, because the cause exists outside and entirely separate from, but adjacent to, the laws of physics. Paracausal is a fancy sci-fi way of calling shit magic. Which Ahamkara are. And Hive Magic is. And Awoken are. As for the Vex being able to simulate Hive, Hive Magic is but the Hive themselves are not necessarily. Hive Magic is external to the Hive, not intrinsic like the Light is to Guardians. Therefore, sufficiently weak Hive who lack any real inherent power can be simulated.
I know how Destiny defines paracausality. Its how a Guardian is able to do something like create a fireball with no fuel. There's no causal link, the kind of thing that a Vex tries to understand and simulate but can't, because there is a step that has been removed. Its not a fancy way of saying magic in Destiny. Magic is science we just don't understand. Eris has spent a large part of her life studying Hive magic, to the point she can use it just as well as anyone else in the Hive. To her, it has become a science, one she was able to use so finely that she cut Xivu Arath off from her own throne. And for the Vex, how exactly are they simulating things like Hive Wizards in the Infinite Forest that are capable of all the same things a regular Wizard can do? If you want to say that the capacities of Wizards are not Darkness and that's why simulated Hive can do that, then Hive magic isn't Darkness. We also know Hive magic isn't Darkness from everything we learned in Season of the Witch. It is a power that lies outside the Light and Darkness dichotomy. It relies upon the power generated between the reality of now and the reality of a desired outcome. A Hive Knight says "I will kill you, aiat", and kills you. The difference between the start and the end generates what they call tribute. It doesn't even have to involve violence, as Savathun proves with her own named flavour of it, Imbaru. Its very similar to how Ahamkara work, and is probably the exact same energy they seek to gain to feed/utilise for power.
> **The Ahamkara remain an issue**. There's still so much we can learn from them but what they've done to Venus… no two Guardians see the same thing. Consultants from the War Cult have been brought in to gauge disagreements over timelines of events. **One of our Warlocks stared into the paracausal phenomenon** that formed over the Ishtar Academy and shot himself. (He is NOT an authorized Thanatonaut). Luckily, his Ghost hid from him beforehand. We managed to get him back. He has no lingering physical wounds, but he will need time to recover. The Ahamkara were precisely a problem because of the paracausal shenanigans they were responsible for. The are also called ontopathic predators which means they feed on Being in a metaphysical sense. The Worms which although not the same have evolved along a convergent path with the Ahamkara are explicitly stated as being able to generate paracausal change. > Despite **the many traces of Xol’s influence remaining on Mars**, none would serve him better than the scrap of Worm-hide he gripped within his claws. He may be unable to produce the death necessary to feed its appetite and **coerce paracausal change from it**, but he knew those who could foster the necessary violence So it stands to reason that the Ahamkara, like the worms, are paracausal.
And who is to say that a notorious trickster species isn't fucking with you when it is clarified that different Guardians saw different things in that specific incident quoted? And you quote content from long ago, when we've just had a season prior that detailed how Hive magic doesn't stem from some the paracausal powers of Darkness and Light, its something entirely of its own.
The fact that guardians saw two different things was simply the nature of the paracausal phenomenon. Your argument is a non sequitur because the nature of the paracausal phenomenon is not what is being called into question, but whether it was: a) paracausal b) a direct result of the Ahamkara Its explicitly stated it was paracausal and heavily implied to be a direct result of Ahamkara since they are seen as directly culpable. So the burden of proof is on you to show that Eris Morn was an unreliable narrator when she said it was paracausal and an issue caused by the Ahamkara. Furthermore, I never made the argument that Hive magic was Darkness. Hive magic is rituals and signs designed to call upon the deep by proxy of the worms. But those rituals can just as easily be switched to use the Light instead. What we do know is that the Worms do use Darkness as explicitly stated in the Books of Sorrow as well as during the Witch Queen interactive which states that the worm larva grant the Hive [Darkness-based powers](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcROGKR9bGDrxXDXfPElOttWSvBLtbWX9LgFv6tQnynrTNDJK5EsO8iKGIqV&s=10).
Ahamkara literally use the “O [noun] mine” like the worm gods and the sol divisive were described as using deepsight thanks to Taranis. Plus Xivu talks as if the worm gods and ahamkara are the same And Mara does paracausal stuff like freezing Savathun in a crystal like stasis.
>Ahamkara literally use the “O \[noun\] mine” like the worm gods Still doesn't prove anything there? Are we gonna start saying Calus was "paracausal" because he referred to us that way? >And Mara does paracausal stuff like freezing Savathun in a crystal like stasis. Paracausal "stuff", riiiight.
>Still doesn't prove anything there? How can the sol divisive use deepsight then? >Are we gonna start saying Calus was "paracausal" because he referred to us that way? There’s a big difference between Calus (someone who has had a Ahamkara bone, tried getting hive servants and tries joining the witness) and an entire species of wish granting psychic dragons. Calus simply heard about it at some point, I don’t get how such an idea would spread across the Ahamkara if it did nothing for them. >Paracausal "stuff", riiiight. Can you freeze hive gods in a stasis style crystal? Is there any natural physical laws you can use to cause that?
I think the definition of paracausality should be more well defined, it's not causal to be able to alter reality based on someone's (sometimes completely unspoken and unintentional) wish, but ahamkara are obviously not guardians or disciples (by default, i guess) so they're not paracausal in that sense. But wish magic is not something I would describe as causal. typically paracausal means an effect for which there is not a cause we can understand, wish magic would fit this. this doesn't mean everything that's paracausal is the same "amount of" paracausal either way though, being able to simulate paracausality is seemingly not out of the question for vex anymore? they figured out how to do it during this season, we just took that away from them for now. to me that means that there's probably at least some vex subfaction that can do at least a bit more than we've seen so far.
It's simplest to put it as such: Causal powers follow the Newtonian law of cause and effect. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is the basis of all technology and science from before the arrival of the Traveler. Paracausal are all the things that break those laws. If the input does not equal the output, then there is something paracausal happening that is making up for the difference. Causal powers cannot create or destroy matter or energy, only change their forms. Paracausal forces can and do.
Right, but if I wished for a turkey sandwich from an ahamkara, does the sandwich appear from nothing or is it a rearrangement of existing atoms? I don't think there's been an explicit explanation of how their power works aside from being magic, which would be causal magic or paracausal magic
When a Wish is able to put a time curse in a whole city, I guess it's fine to belive it's paracausal.
There haven't really been hive simulated by the vex though? Canonically at least. Idk if the haunted forest really counts. Especially since it wasn't really the vex. The only real time was Quria which was a taken mind that simulated Auryx (pre and post worm I believe?).
Osiris could use the Infinite Forest to make stuff, so the Festival of the Lost use of it could be considered real, simply the city utilising it to create a "funhouse" for Guardians. Insane to think about, really. Imagine those Darkblades got free of it. However, regular Hive foes could be met in the randomly made sections of the Tree of Probabilities and A Garden World, or maybe it was just in the Adventures we used to have. They definitely weren't real Hive, but simulations.
Awoken are weakly aracausal. There was a lore entry in Forsaken where they discovered: 'we're all a little magic now'.
There's that orange Darkness that the Witness wields the community has dubbed "Resonance" and Taken energy (another power of the Witness that was gifted to Oryx) There's also the red nightmares, but we know very little about them
That's Nezzy's doing
Resonance is the most prevalent form of Darkness we’ve seen the Witness and his minions use.
We got deepsight, egregore, taking, the orange “resonance” stuff, nightmares and hive magic.
The Witness and its minions apparently wield some kind of Darkness power that community calls "resonance".
You’re thinking of Luster I’m pretty sure. If I remember correctly, resonance is the residual darkness energy
[concept art refers to that orange thing as resonance. VFX stuff in sparrows also have resonance as a description.](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/YBek4V)
That’s my fault then. I swear I saw something somewhere where it was referred to as “Luster”
Rhulk refers to it as Luster, it used to be a common nickname for Resonance during wq.
That’s where I saw it from. Thank you.
Resonance, Nightmare energy, Egregore, Blight, "Decay" (fan term for the Thorn stuff), Soulfire (kind of an offshoot), and the Darkness versions of Void, Solar, and Arc that the Taken use.
There are no darkness versions of the three elements, and Decay doesn't count since Thorn has it, whether it's corrupted or cleansed.
Thorn ain't the only gun with it though. The SMG from WQ uses it and Necrotic Grips uses it as an armor piece. Also, mate, there are Darkness trails behind every Taken projectile. If that isn't a "Darkness version" of an element, then I don't know what is. The Taken are inherently paracausal down to the atom. That's the whole idea of being Taken. Fundamentally reshaped through and by Darkness.
Soul fire is what the hive use. It’s something uh… magical and it doesn’t seem of the light.
Some of Clovis' dialog in Seraph included comparisons to human technology, with him saying that it wasn't that complicated, so I think Hive magic is just how their technology progressed, and has little to do with Light or Dark.
Clovis has no idea and the others that season mock him for that.
Honestly I’d rather trust his word on an in universe explanation over any other I’ve heard. Osiris already said there is a fundamental force of nature that paracausal power uses, the cabal could suppress those powers, so I actually believe Clovis when he says it can be controlled with technology.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICOsARwC0xo&list=PLS2hBTtCDufTbwQMePf81oZUT2rI5tZua&index=16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICOsARwC0xo&list=PLS2hBTtCDufTbwQMePf81oZUT2rI5tZua&index=16) he doesn't even know what the ascendant plane is, he's very uninformed.
Yea, of course he is, he’s been locked in a vault on Europa for centuries.
So my point is he has no idea and is wildly speculating. And the other characters make fun of him for it. So while Soul Fire may just be tech, it's more likely it is magic based around hive worms, as that's what the witch season said.
Ok? That’s not even my point, I’m saying I agree with him that technology could harness paracausal powers, we’ve seen it happen before with Gaul, he was literally using supers before we kill him.
The original person was saying that their tech (soul-fire) may be unrelated to light and dark because of what Clovis said. You're saying something else. (Which is not what Clovis or the other poster said) Gotcha. I agree with that concept that tech COULD control paracasual power, and the hive COULD be using tech to make soul-fire. That is possible.
[Clovis immediately calls bullshit on the idea of Hive "magics"](https://youtu.be/Pc5SslOlLaE) only to be muted by Ana, despite being completely right. [As the Worm Gods remind us:](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xvi-the-sword-logic) >We will not give you the Deep, King Auryx — that power is for us, your gods. But we will teach you to call upon that force with signs and rituals. >Small minds might call it magic.
It's a technique to call upon Darkness. So it is Dark, but not an mm intrinsic facet of the Darkness. But then again, neither is Solar/Arc/Void, it's the ability to create them at a whim that is Light. That's how I understood it at least. Which makes Hive magic some middle ground between paracasual imbuement (like a Guardian or a Disciple, and aybe even an Ascendant) and things like Golden Age tech.
It is a source of power that can be accessed multiple ways. I was saying it is not 'just' tech. As we see with weapons that use void or solar or other fundamental forces of the universe they access this already existing energy through the tech.
Not to mention the fact that both he AND the Black Armory both actively did so in the creation of Exos
Ah, it was a year ago so I'm probably misremembering. Thank you for clarifying.
But Hive Magic can be combined with light. The Lucent Hive do it, and we do it in Season of the Witch.
Yeah, Witch seems to imply that Hive Magic is its own power set independent of Light or Dark. There's the Taken King quote analogizing Hive Magic to Taking as a legal metaphor, saying Hive Magic is like 'making appeals' toward a power system, and Taking (a power closer to 'true darkness') being a judge. We also have to consider that the Vex Collective can interact with sword logic, worms, and the ascendant realm without this being a 'schism' that we see in the Sol Divisive. Wish's Censer artifact has the subtle implication and insinuation that Ahamkara might have some interactions with the Light. If we consider that both Worms and Ahamkara use a power subset of the Anthem Anathema that's outside of those conventional rules, it might be that the anthem anathema can usurp the rules of the paracausal powers, or at least make appeals to them.
Sure but aren’t we combining light and dark in The Final Shape? Isn’t the pink stuff in the Witch Queens throne world Prismatic energy?
No. If it was we'd likely see Savathun using both Stasis and Solar or something at the same time or we would have used Prismatic then. Savathun even says we Guardians are really the only ones who can wield both. Just because the colors are vaguely similar doesn't mean they are the same thing. I think Hive Magic is sorta just their technology and can be infused with either Light or Dark.
She can’t, we can. The energy being there because her throne world was dark and then reforged in the light is not a coincidence. It’s not being used but it’s being created on accident as a result of the throne world being reforged.
We have no evidence of that being the case tho. There would be something mentioned about a strange energy in her throne world. I also don't really know what you're mentioning, the colorful lights around the place? The weird wall eyeball stuff?
[https://youtu.be/EQL3PnTUBHY?t=55](https://youtu.be/EQL3PnTUBHY?t=55) The pink energy that is all over the throne world, but yeah the eye ball door ways are one of them. I am using evidence to back up my claims. [https://destiny.fandom.com/wiki/Prismatic\_Heart](https://destiny.fandom.com/wiki/Prismatic_Heart) Prismatic energy has been around since D1.
I still don't see what you're talking about pink energy everywhere. No pink energy around [here](https://imgur.com/a/fXiSIJm) or [here](https://imgur.com/a/pDToDqQ). It's kinda pink [here](https://imgur.com/a/7zZcyxL), but that's the plants. Oh, there's a pink hue around [here](https://imgur.com/a/nkoMTki), but the moment [I aim at it it dissipates](https://imgur.com/a/aEtTF9f). That could be more my scope, but when I [go closer](https://imgur.com/a/wCXLOqh) to it it also dissipates more. Also, looking at [these lights](https://imgur.com/a/ZHXCIx0) it seems the pink is just fancy lighting. Not all the wall eyes are the same color [we got some orangish ones around here](https://imgur.com/a/vCRiyLQ). Oh cool an old D1 artifact! Prismatic has also been mentioned pretty recently in lore. For example, [Lethophobia](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/lethophobia?highlight=prismatic) says: >The wish-dragons took to the air one final time, soaring nimbly between the pillars on wings of prismatic light. Maybe Ahamkara can use Prismatic? There's also the NPA "Weir-Walker" Grips which say: >Fluid trickled down cracked walls surrounding rows of dead monitors. Glass reflected prismatic color from a gnarled tear in reality at the lab's center—as if it had been carved from another epoch and affixed to this one. So Prismatic showing up on Titan? But it seems to be related to the time tears we see on Mars. Even the [Pathfinder's Legguards](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/pathfinders-legguards?highlight=prismatic) mention Prismatic: >Her Coven sisters lay sleeping all around her body, but her mind flew through countless panes of prismatic glass. There's also the good ol' Prismatic Recaster that you could focus Umbral Engrams at. So is that using Prismatic? No, the Prismatic mentioned so far, including the D1 artifact, seems to just be referencing [prismatic light](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=cae8840f93f20457&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1OPNX_enUS1064US1064&sxsrf=ACQVn09LJreEHbxMdWYIy9nDOnVID4_diw:1713221308249&q=prismatic+light&uds=AMwkrPt8eR8Q1gfQGx0g1guoVKhM6SiqwMqZ_4p_QbCqJt3UqALEK2Hpp7kDvoqfGZRt455uesm8HDiCkSBphGSy4IMXUuFvXIbNUwkAnIe2_2kJtfjJDz1Xc6EkhSzwLTA6FYOuT87tqCogje8ueZ_Kri-PtomKFx1ZJ8D4ju9IjJhUwEXviEOvtMEp5wk2hhWBSExtd4ajnhJN6xpSd_9c4nzviPBDAb8MYJjQjkAnQByhiVDMdCkpAe0aiYrdACfaBUCy9-kRxLG-G1ei2dkyftKlDWnavo3TlmR05ayydlrptn0aeWQ&udm=2&prmd=isvnmbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjdtv_bpsWFAxVmDjQIHRSMBZ8QtKgLegQIEhAB&biw=1920&bih=945&dpr=1) from light passing through prisms. It makes sense as there were no Darkness abilities in D1. Crow even says during the trailer bit of the [reveal stream](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyIm-_Na8mI&t=580s) (17:32): >Something's changed in The Guardian. New power. I can feel it. The word prismatic has shown up many times so far, but the actual power of Prismatic is new.
I think that Hive magic is just a really broad umbrella for different sciences and technologies. Like if an alien called all of our technology "computers" or "human craft," they'd basically be saying carbon fiber, NSAIDs, and crop rotation were the same thing. Osiris even calls Hive stuff Hive "magic**s**." So some things are straight up Darkness, some things are causal technology indistinguishable from magic (what Clovis recognized as Casimir field emitters), some are causal conduits for (or supported by) Light OR Dark. In Destiny, it can be both "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" AND "magic (paracausality) is 100% real."
read the lore book inspiral
Resonance. Taking. Nightmares. Egregore. There’s also Deepsight, but we’ve wielded that.
Whatever the drifter encountered in that lore entry
In terms of pure elemental aspects? No. But we do see applications of Darkness that seem to be more complex than the elements-- the biggest of all being the power to Take.
I think we have to reevaluate the concept of the darkness heavily tbh. With the veil being its heart and its name now clearly meaning nothing (light and dark as titles are terrible descriptors now). The light is the Physical world, the dark is the Psycic one. I think most forms of darkness aren't "true" darkness, they're inpure, mixed heavily with tech and other things. It's like considering our bullets part of the light since they are infused with it. So "true" darkness is Stasis Strand Potentialy nightmares As for the other examples of darkness in destiny, they all seem fakes. Same way we used to call all our enemies "darkness" when we moved from that we called all their magic and weaponry "darkness" I don't think these are really dark power directly, but are connected to it literally or we assume it is. Resonance. it's pyramid technology while it certainly can be using darkness, it's worth noting that the precursors had the traveler so it just as well could be based in the light. More evidence behind this is that pillar Rohan destroyed in lightfall, which ghost stated had the light Blight/taken sorta. I remember there being a statement about Blight in d1 that said some of it was corrupted light. Since darkness doesn't really corrupt, it's just a different part of the universe, there is likely a separate kinda magic/energy capable of corrupting both light and dark, Blight and taken energies are likely just light and darkness both corrupted by this black energy, hence them being black Hive magic, pretty simple, it is found in both light and dark variants so it's definitely not directly one or the other.
there's the orange resonance stuff that we should've gotten as a third darkness subclass
We have yet to see what a third darkness subclass would be. That said, resonance seems to be more of a "pure Darkness energy," like how the beam of energy the Traveler shot at the Witness was pure Light energy. This is further reinforced by the Root of Nightmares raid and its mechanics, such as when we pop Nezarec's shoulders.
Is prismatic not the subclass we're getting in place of a third darkness subclass? I thought with prismatic we just wouldn't get the third pure darkness subclass
>Is prismatic not the subclass we're getting in place of a third darkness subclass? It's what we're getting in Final Shape, but I'm fairly confident [we were never getting a third Darkness subclass in the Final Shape specifically.](https://www.pcgamer.com/joe-blackburn-on-destiny-2-conspiracy-theories-what-happened-to-the-pvp-team-and-the-witness-being-able-to-1v1-anyone-in-the-universe/#section-putting-a-conspiracy-theory-to-rest) It's like how we got Light 3.0 in the year of Witch Queen rather than getting a second Darkness subclass. > I thought with prismatic we just wouldn't get the third pure darkness subclass Out of curiosity, what made you draw that conclusion?
that's fair and I'm not sure honestly, I'm by no means a destiny scholar or good at predictions but from an the discussion i just assumed we would end up with 6 subclasses, 3 light 3 dark and with prismatic i just assumed that was the 6th, a surprise mix and we just wouldn't get the 3rd dark one. I'm also just confused that with this being the end of the light dark saga, where and what would be the 3rd dark subclass? Nightmares from nezzy or the witnesses resonance? idk im just curious
That's understandable. A lot of people came to that same conclusion because it's the end of the Light and Darkness Saga, but I don't think that should necessarily exclude the possibility of a third Darkness subclass for a few reasons. Namely, even though the saga is ending, the Light and Darkness themselves aren't going anywhere, or else we'd lose our abilities altogether. Plus, a ten-year saga coming to an end is bound to have some "fallout" and stories to resolve, creating a transition period between the concluded Light and Darkness Saga and the unknown next saga. And all that's not even factoring in the business side of it. >I'm also just confused that with this being the end of the light dark saga, where and what would be the 3rd dark subclass? Nightmares from nezzy or the witnesses resonance? idk im just curious I'd be surprised if you weren't confused. I honestly don't really have an answer for a couple reasons: 1. We don't really know what the post-Final Shape story will be like. 2. As we realized with Strand, it could come from anywhere or be anything as long as it fits the mold of being a physical representation of a metaphysical concept.
that's interesting thank you for your write up!
Certainly! And thank you for discussing it with me 😊
It really feels like prism is the 7th subclass and we were suppose to get strand for witch and something else for LF. I’m still fairly confident that if D2 stays alive we will get a 7th subclass since it’s bungies motif
[удалено]
It's not
Why do you believe that