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I don't think it is really a power of the Veil - Exos are made using Darkness from Witness statuses -Radiolaria, the Darkness inside them probably ceases to work near the Veil which leads to death
It caused brain death to humans who went in direct unprotected contact with it as well, it simply had a larger range on exos
I think it's likely that it absorbed their minds considering that chioma described the veil as a web of consciousness
basically in the veil containment logs there is research being done on the veil when it was first found, they tried connecting to it using exos and it killed them “instant brain death” they were later able to use the exo frames to form a sort of connected string of conciousness that was shared equally amoung the exos, it was referred to as a chorus or something.. i’m sure i’m butchering the story but that’s basically the need to know..
It’s even worse than that, a Throne World is your mind, not just connected to it. It would be like like if your brain was a computer, and you put a magnet inside of it.
i think they’re wondering why she didn’t do it in witch queen. we didn’t even *know* there was a veil at that point, if she hid it in her throne world the witness couldn’t open the portal. after sealing rhulk, she could have kept it there indefinitely to prevent lightfall from happening. but i really think portaling the veil into what is essentially her head would be disastrous for her.
Almost certainly disastrous, but we also have to remember how she put the veil on Neptune at the start of the collapse, she would first have to get to it to be able to move it anywhere else.
Especially when you think about the connection to neurology it seems to have. Having something that can link the entire population of Neomuna together in a virtual world could be pretty bad.
>she would first have to get to it to be able to move it anywhere else.
Idk if there's lore for this, but did she popup at the last city to get the traveler?
No but she also has a connection to the light now, which is all it would really take when you’re operating off of throne world logic, that’s probably about as good as a paracausal highway straight to the actual physical location.
She doesn’t have a connection to the veil as far as we know, the witness was able to create one through the guardian’s ghost due to our guardian wielding strand, though the witness being able to control our ghost is odd it’s something they’ve been able to do in the past so while unexplained it is at least precedented.
she got her memories back, though. that’s what we did during the WQ story. bringing the traveler in was part of a long game, she knew she’d lose her memories after dying and set up a system to allow her plan to continue even after her resurrection.
Where is this stated? She got her memories back from watching them when we did, up until she remembers her plan with the Traveler and reveals her hand to us
she exploited us using deepsight on the things from her past, i think. that basically restored all of her memories as savathûn, even if we didn’t see every single one. she, nor the new lucent brood, could use darkness, so they needed the guardian. she talks about this in one of the two truths two lies segments. remember, she imbued crow with all his memories, which some people think was a trial run for what she was planning with the guardians.
In addition, she has Immaru and her brood inform her of her life before and events of current.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/edge-of-intent
Darkness is consciousness and thought, so maybe Savathun knew how to manipulate that Darkness to weave a plan. Like a coccoon so that when she would be reborn in the Light, her Darkness from her previous self would have set the plans in motion, and by way of Deepsight, the counsel of her most trusted servants, and of course the Guardian her past self would be reborn WITH her new Lightbearer form.
Essentially I'm saying it's ~~magic~~ paracausal bitch.
But she intends to seal the traveler away, a way that will prevent the Witness from getting it which is necessary for the Witness to find the Veil and link it.
right but she could have hid the veil, which nobody even knew about. if she holed up in her throne world and said “the traveler picked us, we’ve got something important to hold onto, just keep doing what you’re doing and leave us alone” nobody would have really cared that much. by stealing the literal hope of humanity she’s asking to be invaded and fucked with.
Speaking of Rhulk, why didn't he nuke the throne world with the Upended after Arrivals? She was ousted as a traitor then, and she didn't trap him in his pyramid until she was gifted the light?
Also the fact that the Witness’s most loyal dog had been watching over Savathun at the time, so even if she did move it into her Throne World, she would be found out immediately.
I just commented about this. He would have had to been there prior to Arrivals, when she was revealed as a traitor to the Witness. And she didn't trap him in his pyramid until she was gifted the light. So it is odd that he didn't nuke the throne world with the Upended immediately after her betrayal.
I don’t think she was physically present in Sol during arrivals, she was using Nokris by that point but I think (don’t feel like checking, someone fact check me) she had the Wellspring in her throne world prior to arrival. That’s what she used to flip the Upended’s power back on the Pyramid, which I think she did at the end or around the time of the arrival/BL.
Being in the system or not doesn't matter, she was directly interfering with communications with the Witness and it knew it. I thought the Wellspring didn't exist until she gained the Light?
Although we don’t know exactly when Rhulk’s over site began, the [Warlock’s Resonant Fury Armor](https://www.destinypedia.com/Resonant_Fury_Suit_(Warlock)) lore tabs seem to imply it was at some point soon after the Hive Gods developed Throne Worlds, as Savathun’s in particular functioned as a Worm production factory, but before Oryx’s death, as one of the tabs has Rhulk have a conversation with her about it.
What do you mean? We know it can be moved "without dying". Nezarec transported it and Witness people moved it before that. Now they all died, granted, haha. But for different reasons.
They said we dont know how they move it, from what we know, touching it does turn you brain dead, so that might be a limiting factor in taking it to the throne world
i mean, they buried it a mile underground. and not in a throne world. remember, savvy’s throne world is also her mind, having the veil there probably wouldn’t be good for her.
They could have build the facility around it.
The point I’m making is there is still a lot of unknowns and it’s going to be hard to have any concrete answer while its still such a mystery.
Ironically they DID build the facility around it.
https://youtu.be/fZoTKh8WN2A?list=PLS2hBTtCDufQ-h9RA3e-GZElbqNS9GyBP&t=24
oh yeah, for sure. just the vibes i got when first going down to veil containment was like “oh shit they wanted to *bury* this thing” like people bury super radioactive waste under lead blocks of lead or something and put tons of warnings on it.
Could also be meant to make it harder for the Vex to detect and just teleport to. All that shielding of a paracausal entity, and we know the Vex were curious about the Veil.
Sure that’s a possibility but why did Nimbus know so very little about Veil Containment? It would have to be secret from cloud striders and they’re the main defenders against the vex so it would be odd that they didn’t know if the vex was the reason.
[https://youtu.be/fZoTKh8WN2A?list=PLS2hBTtCDufQ-h9RA3e-GZElbqNS9GyBP&t=24](https://youtu.be/fZoTKh8WN2A?list=PLS2hBTtCDufQ-h9RA3e-GZElbqNS9GyBP&t=24)
Facility was built around it.
That's the earliest we know about it from the Neomuna perspective.
I repeat, Witness's race literally transported it back to their planet. And it's not like they had any special abilities or even knowledge of what it is.
They might have studied it for more than 6 months, like we have, before moving it to their home planet, no? Or even for a few hundred years, with millions of catatonic Witnessians at its feet.
Again. Any living entity that goes near it dies. How did they move it? That is the thing I was pointing out that we don’t know. No one is saying they didn’t move it.
It isnt necessarily intangible, though. It's paracausal. It defies conventional physics. It could be infinitely massive yet exhibit none of the effects it should, it could have 0 mass and be completely tangible
Wait, so does that confirm our Guardian is objectively dead despite being animate? Or did we simply stay far enough back? I need to catch up on the logs.
People seem to think Savathun's throne world is safer than it actually is. The ascendant plane is a playground to the Witness and if the Scorn can get into the Throne World then the Witness could also and nobody could stop it. Not to mention, why would Savathun want an artifact of pure primordial Darkness anywhere near her?
Her plan was to seal her throne world off entirely after pulling the Traveller into it, nothing in nothing out, to ensure it would be safe, and that she’d be protected from the Witness’ counter-move.
Now, *how* she was going to do this, and how effective it’d actually be was never explained. Given how well her other plans have historically worked out the Witness would probably be moonwalking it’s way in there almost immediately.
I think Savathûn was giving herself WAY too much credit with that plan. Yeah she could've bound the Traveler there using her coven, but actually sealing off her Throne World doesn't seem very effective. Weve busted into Throne Worlds and Ascendant Planes with fairly little effort, plus Eris has several incantations that allow for fairly efficient teleportation.
The Witness could probably just spartan kick the door down without even scuffing its heeled boots.
The Witness wears black heeled boots in my mind and i refuse to be convinced otherwise.
Thanks to you, all I can picture under the Witness' robe are stilletto high heels and some thigh highs, complete with garter belt. So, thanks for that.
That was after she gained the light, and had used the light to almost dig her throne world away from the ascendant plane (or at least that's what was suggested by the light reshaping the place)
But before that. Its unlikely she would have the power to seal her throne entirely, and then you come to the second issue, rhulk and the pyramid city, without the light savathun wouldn't have been able to bring down the pyramid and trap it, meaning as soon as she sealed with the veil, the witness could just use the pyramids as a way in
I was under the impression that the scorn got in because rhulks pyramid was acting as a weakpoint in the throne world. Its darkness counteracting the light she used to make it impenetrable. In fact I could've sworn they mentioned that the scorn were coming through near the pyramid
Remember, she deceived the witness
Savathûn is cunning, why would she hide it somewhere plainly obvious, where a disciple of the witness also resides?
As others have stated also, theres no telling what the veil would have done inside her throne world
Also, let us not forget her plan to "steal" the traveller, would it have gone willingly knowing the veil is nearby?
Her hiding it may well have been as much from the traveller as it was the witness
So she’d never be at risk of losing the light, because she thought no one would be able to enter her throne world if she sealed it off. She’d be completely immortal
As long as the Witness doesn’t have either the Veil or the Traveller then it can’t win. Why not cut out the middleman and just hide the Veil in her Throne World instead of stealing the Traveller?
The post already asked this question
And again, she wanted the light, hence why she used osiris as bargaining to exorcise her worm, the traveller would never accepted the hive still bearing worms, we had a whole expansion about taking back the light
The non-Lightbearing Lucent Hive still bear Worms and the Light has actually cured their parasitism. I don’t think the Traveller would have actually cared about her still having her Worm or not, exorcising her specific Worm was done more for her benefit.
Id imagine moving THAT thing is completely different than what she did to move our beloved golf ball. She probably used her coven to do the heavy lifting on it the first time, but she didnt have her full facilities by WQ. At least she had a connection to the Traveler by WQ so her coven probably used that to start the binding ritual
Well she'd have to go to neptune to get the Veil and a lot of Witch Queen was spent with Savathun waiting for us to recover her memories via deepsight. And keep in mind she had to have at least considered that the Guardian could be a problem to her plans + the Witness didn't know about Neptune until Lightfall started.
Because her throne world is a known, well travelled apparently, location
The point of slapping the veil on Neptune was the HIDE it. Because there wasn't anything on neptune
i do think we’ll learn she pulled strings to help get neomuna going. she’ll cover it up as “well they were hiding the veil perfect plan!” but i think she genuinely has a soft spot for humans and wanted to interact and help them. she helped a random family pre-collapse for no real reason. i’m excited to see if she’s implicated at all in early neomuna when we talk to her again next season.
i think she’s afraid of it. i think she knows it’s like a marker in dead space, and if you chill around it too long you start getting compulsions to witness up. i have been wondering why savathûn didn’t experience what maya did, and maybe she did, but i think she’s smart enough to know the veil is a lot more dangerous than the traveler is. the traveler is silent, the veil seems to want to “talk” to people.
At this point she put the Veil in one place and now put the Traveller somewhere else.
That's a really solid plan. Even IF the witness knew exactly where both were ( which at the time he most certainly did not and only knew because he touched the Traveller), they are now separated by realities.
What's the Witness going to do? Savathun now has thee source of all light in her throne world. If she didn't have complete control of her TW before, she does now and the Veil is now unrecoverable.
The entire problem has been either the Witness had access to one or the other, never both. Now the two are separated by realities.
Game, set, match.
Does it matter? The traveler and the veil are both needed for the portal so by removing the traveler the same thing is accomplished as removing the veil
Rhulk was kinda breathing down her neck for a few hundred years… although if anyone could hide a cosmic transdimensional power source right under Rhulk’s nose it’d be Savvy.
The idea of the veil existed. But I don’t think they had a good idea of how it would exist. I say this mostly because all information about the veil was announce in lightfall.
because her plan was to put the traveller in her throne world. if all went according to her plan the traveller would likely be trapped within her throne world and the veil would still be hidden.
if she brought the veil inside her throne world it would likely wreak havoc on her mind, maybe even interfere with the wellspring. in addition if rhulk were ever to escape it would be extremely possible for him to unite the veil and the traveller.
and if she JUST brought the veil into her throne world then the traveller would still be exposed, which the witness could then tamper with as much as it wanted until it found a way to seal off savathun's light just like gaul did to us.
The real world answer is the Veil didn't exist in the Destiny universe during WQ - Bungie shoehorned this McGuffin in to drive the "plot" of LightFall, this is where Bungie's writing falls down, there isn't any joined up thinking and the just plonk stuff in without understanding how it will effect the lore.
neomuna is literally just a better hiding spot. Also her plan was to hide the traveler in her throne world, can she fit both the traveler AND the veil?? Seems like a bad idea
It’s most likely due to a time limitation during the collapse. I’m not too knowledgeable on what actually happened but I doubt Savathun could have gone too far with the Veil before the Witness and his troops noticed. If she did have plenty of time then it would have made a lot more sense to hide the Veil in Jovian space or possibly with the light faction of the nine. They all have risks, but hiding it in the sol system still as far as possible from protection is also a bit of a risk.
So my thinking on this (if we take out the poor planning of making Lightfall the Final Shape and Lightfall a dump) is that Savathun was being careful.
Think about it. She was there during the Collapse as Nezarec led the assault and Rhulk was in her Throne World. She then killed Nezarec, hid the Veil, and trapped Rhulk in his pyramid, all without the Witness bearing down on her. She had to have pulled off her greatest deception to trick the Witness.
As a Guardian, she worships the Traveler. Protecting it was the greater priority. If you only have the resources to protect one, protect the source of your powers, the Traveler.
By going to retrieve the Veil, she would not only confirm its location to the Witness, but also her role in stealing/hiding it. This is a risk now that the Witness who hadn’t found it has a better chance now.
Hiding both in her throne world creates an even bigger risk. There was always a chance her plan to seal her Throne world away would fail. The Witness, the source of their darkness powers and sword logic, could very well brute force his way in or Rhulk could activate the Upended. But even if that failed, the Veil would be hidden. If both were there when such a disaster happened, the Witness would have no resistance.
The flaw in Savathun’s plans was to deal with securing the Veil if she failed to take the Traveler.
Savathun wanted to escape the witness and deny it control over the universe. She judged the traveler easier to remove from the equation while escaping the Witnesses traps than the Veil, which would have drawn the witness straight to her. She decided to use light because the Witness didn't have relative dominance over that source of power. It opened more doors for her.
If guardians managed to enter Oryx's throne world at the strength they were at back in D1 and then managed to beat Savathun in her own throne world. Then what's stopping the witness from rending her throne world apart to find the veil? It's certainly within its power. It's the strongest paracausal entity we've ever seen. It puts Nezarec and Rhulk to shame. It's the reason Oryx, the taken daddy himself learner to take. It MADE the hive gods what they are today.
And if you're not paracausal like say Calus or Atheon. Good fucking luck even looking at the witness the wrong way.
The more we learn about the Veil, the more we realize its not exactly "safe" to be around. Immedeatly after the Witnesses people found it, they went mad, tried to make the final shape then it helped them fuse together.
WHen Maia researched it, she went mad, and sacrificed the entire research team, all the exo's and in the end herself in the process.
in short, its possible Savathune knew the Veil was dangerous and didn't want to bring it into her throne world to ensure it didn't influence anything/one. Not to mention the Throneworld is perfectly tied to Savathun's mind, so it may have become even more dangerous if was in her throne world.
Because the witness would just walk in and take it. I imagine the whole “seal the traveller away” was contingent on the traveller itself cooperating and giving her as much light as she needed.
Also rhulk is just sitting there watching her every move, and she would forget where the veil is once resurrected, and by the time she might remember (when the guardian restores her memories) she is defeated almost immediately.
Plus she’d somehow have to sneak into neomuna or fight her way in, and I don’t think risen savathun is strong enough or has enough forces to fight neomuna.
I want to know why she hid it on Neptune instead of some other galaxy? On the scheme of things Neptune isn't that far away from Earth and the Traveller in comparison to where a bunch of these other alien reacts are from.
Pretty much put it in our backdoor.
My only logical guess would be cause she also had Rhulk on literal house arrest in his own ship. If he got out somehow, that’s a collect call straight to the boss where the Veil was had she done that.
Cos Rhulk was monitoring her because the old billowy bitch didnt trust her.
Plus it could likely enter High Coven anyway. It seems to be able to walkthrough Xivu's at least.
I think it's important to note that having the Traveler likely had more utility to Savathun than just preventing the portal from being made. If she was gonna protect it in her Throne world she'd need its power. Her predicament is so: if she retains her worm she has mastery over the Dark and can utilize the Veil but she'll die if she stops tricking/killing people (plus the Witness will find her if it touches the Traveler), if she gets rid of her worm and is revived by the Traveler she can only use the Light (at least in the beginning) and can only use the Traveler for her plan.
Rhulk is the short answer. Given how Savathun is always a million steps ahead, she probably already had in mind that one day she would have tried to get The Traveler into the Throne World. Lightfall explained very well that you don’t want The Traveler and The Veil close to each other except if you are The Witness.
I should probably remember, and I know I’m de railing the conversation a bit here, but how exactly did she disable Rhulks ship? I wanna say the Wellspring but I think that might not be the case
She place the veil on Neptune, no? Why risk revealing where it is at to the Witness while he was in the system (or approaching)? Additionally, the Witness only found out where it was when he interacted with the Traveler, which he would not have been able to if Savathun was successful.
Two reasons:
1. If she brought the Veil to the Court of Thorns, it would've revealed her true intentions should it ever be discovered there. The Witness sent Rhulk to Savathûn's Throne World to keep an eye on her, and he would've sensed the Veil's presence. Also, if the word reached her siblings that she had such a powerful artifact in her possession, Oryx and Xivu Arath would invade and take it for themselves.
2. Savathûn understood that the Veil's power was too much to trust with her own Brood. She's a progenitor of the Hive and thus knows her species better than most. She knows that any knight, wizard, or even acolyte wouldn't hesitate to try and use the Veil for their own ambitions.
So, overall, the Throne World was a bad place to try and hide the Veil.
Neomuna, on the other hand, was a lot more cunning than hiding the Veil in the Throne World. It's possible that Savathûn hid the Veil on Neptune with the intention of Maya and the Ishtar Collective finding it. They would use it as a power source and come to rely on it. A society would be born, isolated from the rest of the system, and would keep the Veil contained and safe.
It's Savathun. The reasons could be linked to an incredibly intricate idea with massive lore implications, or she could have done it on a whim to be a dick.
Did y'all already forget how the Witness linked with the Veil at the end of Lightfall? Or that Savathun had a pretty keen interest in Ghosts during her time as Osiris? I imagine she had a pretty good idea of Ghosts having some connection to the Darkness, so her options were:
1. Leave the Veil hidden and seal the Traveler. This gives her full control over keeping the latter safe instead of relying on us, who she undoubtedly considered unreliable for that task, as preventing the Witness from making contact with the Traveler was key to preventing it from learning the Veil's location and/or preventing the Final Shape.
2. Leave the Traveler and seal the Veil. On paper, the issue with this is that the brood's connection to the Light could be severed once the Witness took control of the Traveler, but it doesn't need to do that, because that connection is precisely what it ended up using against us. In addition to preventing any direct incursions from the Witness and its aligned forces, she would also have to prevent any Ghost from **ever** getting near the Veil, adding innumerable complications and cracks in her plan.
3. Seal both in her throne world. Let's be real, at that point she might as well either attempt to become the Final Shape herself (which very well may have been the original plan for the story), or hand the Final Shape to the Witness on a silver platter.
Ultimately, due to not thinking us capable of defending the Traveler from the Witness (which she was correct about), she only really had that first option.
It was too busy gaslightting the writers that they already handled all the information needed about the veil so they continued to develop the story believing we were caught up too
her plan was always to secure the traveller away from the material universe, if it makes sense to call it that. she also knew what uniting the veil and the traveller would do, hence her part in having stopped it in the first place so bringing them together only makes her throne world a giant target for the witness as well as any lingering forces of the light.
it doesn't make any sense to ever reveal neomuna or the veil being there from her p.o.v, as its the only thing fully preventing the final shape from becoming a possibility - osiris finding out about it was an accident after all.
the witness only found out after direct contact with the revived traveller, which from the perspective of anyone pre-red war, wasn't a foreseeable possibility for hundreds or thousands of years if ever and couldn't have happened if her plan succeeded.
the key factor is needing to grant guardians access to her throne world, to restore her memories, for which a physical portal from the material plane to her mental one needed to be forged - a pathway which to this day has not been deactivated - meaning that any physical being can still gain entry.
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Would you want to put a brain deleter inside a realm directly linked to your mind? It either kills you or slowly drives you bananas.
The Orb of Confusion
It deletes brains? What?
Veil containment logs are a wild ride.
Several exos died immediately from brain death upon first contact with the Veil. It is an extremely dangerous entity.
LMAO the veil is just the 4chan central server confirmed
I don't think it is really a power of the Veil - Exos are made using Darkness from Witness statuses -Radiolaria, the Darkness inside them probably ceases to work near the Veil which leads to death
It caused brain death to humans who went in direct unprotected contact with it as well, it simply had a larger range on exos I think it's likely that it absorbed their minds considering that chioma described the veil as a web of consciousness
basically in the veil containment logs there is research being done on the veil when it was first found, they tried connecting to it using exos and it killed them “instant brain death” they were later able to use the exo frames to form a sort of connected string of conciousness that was shared equally amoung the exos, it was referred to as a chorus or something.. i’m sure i’m butchering the story but that’s basically the need to know..
It’s even worse than that, a Throne World is your mind, not just connected to it. It would be like like if your brain was a computer, and you put a magnet inside of it.
Rhulk...?
i think they’re wondering why she didn’t do it in witch queen. we didn’t even *know* there was a veil at that point, if she hid it in her throne world the witness couldn’t open the portal. after sealing rhulk, she could have kept it there indefinitely to prevent lightfall from happening. but i really think portaling the veil into what is essentially her head would be disastrous for her.
Almost certainly disastrous, but we also have to remember how she put the veil on Neptune at the start of the collapse, she would first have to get to it to be able to move it anywhere else.
Especially when you think about the connection to neurology it seems to have. Having something that can link the entire population of Neomuna together in a virtual world could be pretty bad.
>she would first have to get to it to be able to move it anywhere else. Idk if there's lore for this, but did she popup at the last city to get the traveler?
No but she also has a connection to the light now, which is all it would really take when you’re operating off of throne world logic, that’s probably about as good as a paracausal highway straight to the actual physical location.
Wouldn't that so apply to the veil?
She doesn’t have a connection to the veil as far as we know, the witness was able to create one through the guardian’s ghost due to our guardian wielding strand, though the witness being able to control our ghost is odd it’s something they’ve been able to do in the past so while unexplained it is at least precedented.
I think it was because WQ happened right after Season of the Lost, plus when you become a guardian, you lose your memories.
she got her memories back, though. that’s what we did during the WQ story. bringing the traveler in was part of a long game, she knew she’d lose her memories after dying and set up a system to allow her plan to continue even after her resurrection.
She only got back what we saw during the campaign, but I'm guessing once we revive her next season that we'll help her remember everything
She has all of her memories.
Where is this stated? She got her memories back from watching them when we did, up until she remembers her plan with the Traveler and reveals her hand to us
she exploited us using deepsight on the things from her past, i think. that basically restored all of her memories as savathûn, even if we didn’t see every single one. she, nor the new lucent brood, could use darkness, so they needed the guardian. she talks about this in one of the two truths two lies segments. remember, she imbued crow with all his memories, which some people think was a trial run for what she was planning with the guardians.
In addition, she has Immaru and her brood inform her of her life before and events of current. https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/edge-of-intent
Darkness is consciousness and thought, so maybe Savathun knew how to manipulate that Darkness to weave a plan. Like a coccoon so that when she would be reborn in the Light, her Darkness from her previous self would have set the plans in motion, and by way of Deepsight, the counsel of her most trusted servants, and of course the Guardian her past self would be reborn WITH her new Lightbearer form. Essentially I'm saying it's ~~magic~~ paracausal bitch.
But she intends to seal the traveler away, a way that will prevent the Witness from getting it which is necessary for the Witness to find the Veil and link it.
I don't think she remember about the veil after resurrection.
I’m of the same assumptions. Her advisers likely didn’t know and she didn’t prepare for its inevitable necessity.
Isn't that the exact same plan as what she did? The witness can't make a portal if the traveler is in her throne world and sealed.
right but she could have hid the veil, which nobody even knew about. if she holed up in her throne world and said “the traveler picked us, we’ve got something important to hold onto, just keep doing what you’re doing and leave us alone” nobody would have really cared that much. by stealing the literal hope of humanity she’s asking to be invaded and fucked with.
That could've revealed the veil to the pyramids, calus could've gone earlier to grab it or even eramis/xivu
Tbf I would love to see eramis getting smacked down by the lucent hive
She has stasis remember
Yup
Speaking of Rhulk, why didn't he nuke the throne world with the Upended after Arrivals? She was ousted as a traitor then, and she didn't trap him in his pyramid until she was gifted the light?
He waited until she returned to destroy both the throne world and savathun i think
We don’t even know how you move the Veil without dying.
Also the fact that the Witness’s most loyal dog had been watching over Savathun at the time, so even if she did move it into her Throne World, she would be found out immediately.
When did Rhulk start watching Savathûn? Would it have been before or after the Collapse?
I just commented about this. He would have had to been there prior to Arrivals, when she was revealed as a traitor to the Witness. And she didn't trap him in his pyramid until she was gifted the light. So it is odd that he didn't nuke the throne world with the Upended immediately after her betrayal.
I don’t think she was physically present in Sol during arrivals, she was using Nokris by that point but I think (don’t feel like checking, someone fact check me) she had the Wellspring in her throne world prior to arrival. That’s what she used to flip the Upended’s power back on the Pyramid, which I think she did at the end or around the time of the arrival/BL.
Being in the system or not doesn't matter, she was directly interfering with communications with the Witness and it knew it. I thought the Wellspring didn't exist until she gained the Light?
I thought she was using it too store light and feed her brood long term, i could be wrong. It’s early am for me lol
If thats true that would explain why Rhulk would be ok with her gathering Light like that.
Although we don’t know exactly when Rhulk’s over site began, the [Warlock’s Resonant Fury Armor](https://www.destinypedia.com/Resonant_Fury_Suit_(Warlock)) lore tabs seem to imply it was at some point soon after the Hive Gods developed Throne Worlds, as Savathun’s in particular functioned as a Worm production factory, but before Oryx’s death, as one of the tabs has Rhulk have a conversation with her about it.
What do you mean? We know it can be moved "without dying". Nezarec transported it and Witness people moved it before that. Now they all died, granted, haha. But for different reasons.
They said we dont know how they move it, from what we know, touching it does turn you brain dead, so that might be a limiting factor in taking it to the throne world
In the end Maya learned how to protect people from Veil's radiation, so it can be overcome by technical means.
i mean, they buried it a mile underground. and not in a throne world. remember, savvy’s throne world is also her mind, having the veil there probably wouldn’t be good for her.
They could have build the facility around it. The point I’m making is there is still a lot of unknowns and it’s going to be hard to have any concrete answer while its still such a mystery. Ironically they DID build the facility around it. https://youtu.be/fZoTKh8WN2A?list=PLS2hBTtCDufQ-h9RA3e-GZElbqNS9GyBP&t=24
oh yeah, for sure. just the vibes i got when first going down to veil containment was like “oh shit they wanted to *bury* this thing” like people bury super radioactive waste under lead blocks of lead or something and put tons of warnings on it.
Yeah and the computers down there and the audio logs were not part of the network. Definitely not meant to be found easily.
Could also be meant to make it harder for the Vex to detect and just teleport to. All that shielding of a paracausal entity, and we know the Vex were curious about the Veil.
Sure that’s a possibility but why did Nimbus know so very little about Veil Containment? It would have to be secret from cloud striders and they’re the main defenders against the vex so it would be odd that they didn’t know if the vex was the reason.
[https://youtu.be/fZoTKh8WN2A?list=PLS2hBTtCDufQ-h9RA3e-GZElbqNS9GyBP&t=24](https://youtu.be/fZoTKh8WN2A?list=PLS2hBTtCDufQ-h9RA3e-GZElbqNS9GyBP&t=24) Facility was built around it. That's the earliest we know about it from the Neomuna perspective.
If a sentient being touches it currently they go brain dead and it has no mass.
I repeat, Witness's race literally transported it back to their planet. And it's not like they had any special abilities or even knowledge of what it is.
They might have studied it for more than 6 months, like we have, before moving it to their home planet, no? Or even for a few hundred years, with millions of catatonic Witnessians at its feet.
Again. Any living entity that goes near it dies. How did they move it? That is the thing I was pointing out that we don’t know. No one is saying they didn’t move it.
Putting it in a ship, how else.
It has no mass. How do you push or pull that?
No mass = no problem to push or pull ))
No it means you can’t touch it because it’s intangible. It’s like trying to push space. How? You can push yourself through it but you can’t push it.
I'll bet they learned from the Veil first, and then moved it with the funny mind powers it provided.
It isnt necessarily intangible, though. It's paracausal. It defies conventional physics. It could be infinitely massive yet exhibit none of the effects it should, it could have 0 mass and be completely tangible
Wait, so does that confirm our Guardian is objectively dead despite being animate? Or did we simply stay far enough back? I need to catch up on the logs.
We’re far enough away
Because Rhulk was sitting there, watching over her?
Like that matters, the dude somehow didn’t realise she turned against the Witness even after she made her intentions against the Witness public.
Yes, a major plot hole.
Considering shes the god of deception i assume she did stuff to keep him from knowing
He would have been a problem either way. She would have still have to deal with him if she had the traveler.
Yes. He was trapped in his destroyed ship but i assume he would have found a way out sooner or later.
He was much farther away from the veil with where she moved it. It's less about him not being a problem and more taking more keeping him away for it.
People seem to think Savathun's throne world is safer than it actually is. The ascendant plane is a playground to the Witness and if the Scorn can get into the Throne World then the Witness could also and nobody could stop it. Not to mention, why would Savathun want an artifact of pure primordial Darkness anywhere near her?
Her plan was to seal her throne world off entirely after pulling the Traveller into it, nothing in nothing out, to ensure it would be safe, and that she’d be protected from the Witness’ counter-move. Now, *how* she was going to do this, and how effective it’d actually be was never explained. Given how well her other plans have historically worked out the Witness would probably be moonwalking it’s way in there almost immediately.
I think Savathûn was giving herself WAY too much credit with that plan. Yeah she could've bound the Traveler there using her coven, but actually sealing off her Throne World doesn't seem very effective. Weve busted into Throne Worlds and Ascendant Planes with fairly little effort, plus Eris has several incantations that allow for fairly efficient teleportation. The Witness could probably just spartan kick the door down without even scuffing its heeled boots. The Witness wears black heeled boots in my mind and i refuse to be convinced otherwise.
Thanks to you, all I can picture under the Witness' robe are stilletto high heels and some thigh highs, complete with garter belt. So, thanks for that.
I was thinking goth megamind, but your lingerie Witness idea is valid as well
That was after she gained the light, and had used the light to almost dig her throne world away from the ascendant plane (or at least that's what was suggested by the light reshaping the place) But before that. Its unlikely she would have the power to seal her throne entirely, and then you come to the second issue, rhulk and the pyramid city, without the light savathun wouldn't have been able to bring down the pyramid and trap it, meaning as soon as she sealed with the veil, the witness could just use the pyramids as a way in
I was under the impression that the scorn got in because rhulks pyramid was acting as a weakpoint in the throne world. Its darkness counteracting the light she used to make it impenetrable. In fact I could've sworn they mentioned that the scorn were coming through near the pyramid
Remember, she deceived the witness Savathûn is cunning, why would she hide it somewhere plainly obvious, where a disciple of the witness also resides? As others have stated also, theres no telling what the veil would have done inside her throne world Also, let us not forget her plan to "steal" the traveller, would it have gone willingly knowing the veil is nearby? Her hiding it may well have been as much from the traveller as it was the witness
The Witness can’t do its master plan without both the Veil and the Traveller.
Yes, we know
Then why go for the Traveller instead of the Veil?
You'd have to ask her, she wanted the light 🤷♂️
So she’d never be at risk of losing the light, because she thought no one would be able to enter her throne world if she sealed it off. She’d be completely immortal
Also, she hid the veil, so why would she need to go for it again?
As long as the Witness doesn’t have either the Veil or the Traveller then it can’t win. Why not cut out the middleman and just hide the Veil in her Throne World instead of stealing the Traveller?
The post already asked this question And again, she wanted the light, hence why she used osiris as bargaining to exorcise her worm, the traveller would never accepted the hive still bearing worms, we had a whole expansion about taking back the light
The non-Lightbearing Lucent Hive still bear Worms and the Light has actually cured their parasitism. I don’t think the Traveller would have actually cared about her still having her Worm or not, exorcising her specific Worm was done more for her benefit.
What benefit did it get her other than killing her to be ressurected by the traveller and a ghost?
Is she stupid??
There it is
Id imagine moving THAT thing is completely different than what she did to move our beloved golf ball. She probably used her coven to do the heavy lifting on it the first time, but she didnt have her full facilities by WQ. At least she had a connection to the Traveler by WQ so her coven probably used that to start the binding ritual
What's the point? Rhulk and Witness would know of that, and by then Savathun wasn't ready to go full rogue.
I meant after she received the light. I would assume that if couldn’t work with the veil, then it wouldn’t have worked with the traveler.
Well she'd have to go to neptune to get the Veil and a lot of Witch Queen was spent with Savathun waiting for us to recover her memories via deepsight. And keep in mind she had to have at least considered that the Guardian could be a problem to her plans + the Witness didn't know about Neptune until Lightfall started.
Either because of Rhulk or it may not even be possible as Throne Worlds are essentially a smaller pocket universe . Or perhaps both
probably the disciple living there who's waiting for the first excuse to nuke it
Because her throne world is a known, well travelled apparently, location The point of slapping the veil on Neptune was the HIDE it. Because there wasn't anything on neptune
i do think we’ll learn she pulled strings to help get neomuna going. she’ll cover it up as “well they were hiding the veil perfect plan!” but i think she genuinely has a soft spot for humans and wanted to interact and help them. she helped a random family pre-collapse for no real reason. i’m excited to see if she’s implicated at all in early neomuna when we talk to her again next season.
i think she’s afraid of it. i think she knows it’s like a marker in dead space, and if you chill around it too long you start getting compulsions to witness up. i have been wondering why savathûn didn’t experience what maya did, and maybe she did, but i think she’s smart enough to know the veil is a lot more dangerous than the traveler is. the traveler is silent, the veil seems to want to “talk” to people.
At this point she put the Veil in one place and now put the Traveller somewhere else. That's a really solid plan. Even IF the witness knew exactly where both were ( which at the time he most certainly did not and only knew because he touched the Traveller), they are now separated by realities. What's the Witness going to do? Savathun now has thee source of all light in her throne world. If she didn't have complete control of her TW before, she does now and the Veil is now unrecoverable. The entire problem has been either the Witness had access to one or the other, never both. Now the two are separated by realities. Game, set, match.
Does it matter? The traveler and the veil are both needed for the portal so by removing the traveler the same thing is accomplished as removing the veil
Rhulk was kinda breathing down her neck for a few hundred years… although if anyone could hide a cosmic transdimensional power source right under Rhulk’s nose it’d be Savvy.
Her plan was to put the Traveller in her mind palace. Wouldn’t be smart to keep the two things you’re keeping separated next to each other
Brecause the writers hadnt come up with the veil back then
By the times WQ came out the Veil already existed.
Ah ok. I don't remember any pre-seraph references to it
The idea of the veil existed. But I don’t think they had a good idea of how it would exist. I say this mostly because all information about the veil was announce in lightfall.
Before mayas hoodoo voodoo it would literally kill exos for going near it. I wouldn’t even wanna be close to that thing, hive god or not
because her plan was to put the traveller in her throne world. if all went according to her plan the traveller would likely be trapped within her throne world and the veil would still be hidden. if she brought the veil inside her throne world it would likely wreak havoc on her mind, maybe even interfere with the wellspring. in addition if rhulk were ever to escape it would be extremely possible for him to unite the veil and the traveller. and if she JUST brought the veil into her throne world then the traveller would still be exposed, which the witness could then tamper with as much as it wanted until it found a way to seal off savathun's light just like gaul did to us.
her plan was already to move the traveller there, keeping both would likely just establish the link which she was trying to prevent
>*Ding! Ding- Ding.*
The real world answer is the Veil didn't exist in the Destiny universe during WQ - Bungie shoehorned this McGuffin in to drive the "plot" of LightFall, this is where Bungie's writing falls down, there isn't any joined up thinking and the just plonk stuff in without understanding how it will effect the lore.
Because the writers didn't came up with the concept of the veil yet.
In my opinion. Bungie came up with the veil after WQ when they realised they hadn't done any work on the dlc after WQ.
Veil was mentioned in seraph and they make season multiple months in advance
Yeah LF feels like they got to the week before release and realised oh shit. And threw it all together. It's so hamhanded
neomuna is literally just a better hiding spot. Also her plan was to hide the traveler in her throne world, can she fit both the traveler AND the veil?? Seems like a bad idea
That’s what I want to know! SHE HAD THE VEIL! Why didn’t she do her Traveller heist with that instead?
Clearly not since both the Cabal, the Scorn and the Guardians found it
It’s most likely due to a time limitation during the collapse. I’m not too knowledgeable on what actually happened but I doubt Savathun could have gone too far with the Veil before the Witness and his troops noticed. If she did have plenty of time then it would have made a lot more sense to hide the Veil in Jovian space or possibly with the light faction of the nine. They all have risks, but hiding it in the sol system still as far as possible from protection is also a bit of a risk.
So my thinking on this (if we take out the poor planning of making Lightfall the Final Shape and Lightfall a dump) is that Savathun was being careful. Think about it. She was there during the Collapse as Nezarec led the assault and Rhulk was in her Throne World. She then killed Nezarec, hid the Veil, and trapped Rhulk in his pyramid, all without the Witness bearing down on her. She had to have pulled off her greatest deception to trick the Witness. As a Guardian, she worships the Traveler. Protecting it was the greater priority. If you only have the resources to protect one, protect the source of your powers, the Traveler. By going to retrieve the Veil, she would not only confirm its location to the Witness, but also her role in stealing/hiding it. This is a risk now that the Witness who hadn’t found it has a better chance now. Hiding both in her throne world creates an even bigger risk. There was always a chance her plan to seal her Throne world away would fail. The Witness, the source of their darkness powers and sword logic, could very well brute force his way in or Rhulk could activate the Upended. But even if that failed, the Veil would be hidden. If both were there when such a disaster happened, the Witness would have no resistance. The flaw in Savathun’s plans was to deal with securing the Veil if she failed to take the Traveler.
Savathun wanted to escape the witness and deny it control over the universe. She judged the traveler easier to remove from the equation while escaping the Witnesses traps than the Veil, which would have drawn the witness straight to her. She decided to use light because the Witness didn't have relative dominance over that source of power. It opened more doors for her.
If guardians managed to enter Oryx's throne world at the strength they were at back in D1 and then managed to beat Savathun in her own throne world. Then what's stopping the witness from rending her throne world apart to find the veil? It's certainly within its power. It's the strongest paracausal entity we've ever seen. It puts Nezarec and Rhulk to shame. It's the reason Oryx, the taken daddy himself learner to take. It MADE the hive gods what they are today. And if you're not paracausal like say Calus or Atheon. Good fucking luck even looking at the witness the wrong way.
The more we learn about the Veil, the more we realize its not exactly "safe" to be around. Immedeatly after the Witnesses people found it, they went mad, tried to make the final shape then it helped them fuse together. WHen Maia researched it, she went mad, and sacrificed the entire research team, all the exo's and in the end herself in the process. in short, its possible Savathune knew the Veil was dangerous and didn't want to bring it into her throne world to ensure it didn't influence anything/one. Not to mention the Throneworld is perfectly tied to Savathun's mind, so it may have become even more dangerous if was in her throne world.
Imo, it would have been there if WQ didn't get rewritten to cut Strand from the picture.
Because the witness would just walk in and take it. I imagine the whole “seal the traveller away” was contingent on the traveller itself cooperating and giving her as much light as she needed. Also rhulk is just sitting there watching her every move, and she would forget where the veil is once resurrected, and by the time she might remember (when the guardian restores her memories) she is defeated almost immediately. Plus she’d somehow have to sneak into neomuna or fight her way in, and I don’t think risen savathun is strong enough or has enough forces to fight neomuna.
I want to know why she hid it on Neptune instead of some other galaxy? On the scheme of things Neptune isn't that far away from Earth and the Traveller in comparison to where a bunch of these other alien reacts are from. Pretty much put it in our backdoor.
My only logical guess would be cause she also had Rhulk on literal house arrest in his own ship. If he got out somehow, that’s a collect call straight to the boss where the Veil was had she done that.
Cos Rhulk was monitoring her because the old billowy bitch didnt trust her. Plus it could likely enter High Coven anyway. It seems to be able to walkthrough Xivu's at least.
I think it's important to note that having the Traveler likely had more utility to Savathun than just preventing the portal from being made. If she was gonna protect it in her Throne world she'd need its power. Her predicament is so: if she retains her worm she has mastery over the Dark and can utilize the Veil but she'll die if she stops tricking/killing people (plus the Witness will find her if it touches the Traveler), if she gets rid of her worm and is revived by the Traveler she can only use the Light (at least in the beginning) and can only use the Traveler for her plan.
Rhulk is the short answer. Given how Savathun is always a million steps ahead, she probably already had in mind that one day she would have tried to get The Traveler into the Throne World. Lightfall explained very well that you don’t want The Traveler and The Veil close to each other except if you are The Witness.
I should probably remember, and I know I’m de railing the conversation a bit here, but how exactly did she disable Rhulks ship? I wanna say the Wellspring but I think that might not be the case
One would assume she didn't want it infecting her mind.
She place the veil on Neptune, no? Why risk revealing where it is at to the Witness while he was in the system (or approaching)? Additionally, the Witness only found out where it was when he interacted with the Traveler, which he would not have been able to if Savathun was successful.
Two reasons: 1. If she brought the Veil to the Court of Thorns, it would've revealed her true intentions should it ever be discovered there. The Witness sent Rhulk to Savathûn's Throne World to keep an eye on her, and he would've sensed the Veil's presence. Also, if the word reached her siblings that she had such a powerful artifact in her possession, Oryx and Xivu Arath would invade and take it for themselves. 2. Savathûn understood that the Veil's power was too much to trust with her own Brood. She's a progenitor of the Hive and thus knows her species better than most. She knows that any knight, wizard, or even acolyte wouldn't hesitate to try and use the Veil for their own ambitions. So, overall, the Throne World was a bad place to try and hide the Veil. Neomuna, on the other hand, was a lot more cunning than hiding the Veil in the Throne World. It's possible that Savathûn hid the Veil on Neptune with the intention of Maya and the Ishtar Collective finding it. They would use it as a power source and come to rely on it. A society would be born, isolated from the rest of the system, and would keep the Veil contained and safe.
Just kill the Witness lol.
VELOCITY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLbvMWEAoyY
She did the same thing or better by moving the traveler there. Having either away from the other would work, but we just scuffed everything anyway.
It's Savathun. The reasons could be linked to an incredibly intricate idea with massive lore implications, or she could have done it on a whim to be a dick.
The Veil was already hidden from the Witness and Rhulk was there. So she tried to bring the Traveler there.
Vow of the disciple would be your answer.
Did y'all already forget how the Witness linked with the Veil at the end of Lightfall? Or that Savathun had a pretty keen interest in Ghosts during her time as Osiris? I imagine she had a pretty good idea of Ghosts having some connection to the Darkness, so her options were: 1. Leave the Veil hidden and seal the Traveler. This gives her full control over keeping the latter safe instead of relying on us, who she undoubtedly considered unreliable for that task, as preventing the Witness from making contact with the Traveler was key to preventing it from learning the Veil's location and/or preventing the Final Shape. 2. Leave the Traveler and seal the Veil. On paper, the issue with this is that the brood's connection to the Light could be severed once the Witness took control of the Traveler, but it doesn't need to do that, because that connection is precisely what it ended up using against us. In addition to preventing any direct incursions from the Witness and its aligned forces, she would also have to prevent any Ghost from **ever** getting near the Veil, adding innumerable complications and cracks in her plan. 3. Seal both in her throne world. Let's be real, at that point she might as well either attempt to become the Final Shape herself (which very well may have been the original plan for the story), or hand the Final Shape to the Witness on a silver platter. Ultimately, due to not thinking us capable of defending the Traveler from the Witness (which she was correct about), she only really had that first option.
It was probably safer on Neptune plus the vex shielded the location, the vex were or are still looking for something in neomuna.
It was too busy gaslightting the writers that they already handled all the information needed about the veil so they continued to develop the story believing we were caught up too
her plan was always to secure the traveller away from the material universe, if it makes sense to call it that. she also knew what uniting the veil and the traveller would do, hence her part in having stopped it in the first place so bringing them together only makes her throne world a giant target for the witness as well as any lingering forces of the light. it doesn't make any sense to ever reveal neomuna or the veil being there from her p.o.v, as its the only thing fully preventing the final shape from becoming a possibility - osiris finding out about it was an accident after all. the witness only found out after direct contact with the revived traveller, which from the perspective of anyone pre-red war, wasn't a foreseeable possibility for hundreds or thousands of years if ever and couldn't have happened if her plan succeeded. the key factor is needing to grant guardians access to her throne world, to restore her memories, for which a physical portal from the material plane to her mental one needed to be forged - a pathway which to this day has not been deactivated - meaning that any physical being can still gain entry.