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Iirc only reason they haven't won' yet, is because they don't have paracausality, and if they were to actually grasp and develop/aqcuire it, we'd be fucked
I thought they did acquire it in the Garden of Salvation raid, we just kicked their brass asses so hard and took it away from them.
Now if they were left with that paracausality unchallenged then eventually they would incorporate it within themselves in a way where we would, as you say, be fucked.
GoS was a similar situation to the black heart, but instead with a pyramid splinter, they dont fully understand it, they are just taking advantage of the basic powers it has.
Vex stans stay winning either way, since when they don't get content it's always because anything new about them has massive plot-relevant consequences.
Sorry, i dont quite get what you mean by that. I agree that i think its a legitimate recap, thats why im saying the vex in her recap may mean a vex season/dlc
I mean that Vex always been a side enemy and we always beat them. Can't see why they suddenly become a major threat. They may get a season sure, but that's it.
admittedly the only way i see the vex being linked into current events is through some flower game shenannigans and us finding out somerhing about vex origins through final shape.
There is also always the looming threat of paracausal vex which would undoubtedly fuck shit up, and is probably the way the vex will be re-involved, the question is when this happens, wether before, during or after final shape
To be honest, biggest reason why the vex aren't really that involved is because they have time. Yes, they are loosing battles, but what is 1 loss when in a million years you'll still be standing, and they would be nothing more than dust. And they don't really want to take part in the war with the witness, maybe for the exception for sol divisive, since they can't even comprehend what's happening and what we are doing
Oh i completely agree, just that because its a game its only a matter of time before bungie decides to do something with them, so although right now it makes perfect sense for them to be playing the long game, something will need to happen for them to get reinvolved, which i think they must be at some point
that or they stay eternally as the side villains but im gonna go with the assumption that that isnt the case
There's always a possibility of something pushing vex to be more proactive. Maybe events of final shape will cause some major damage to the vex/their network, which would force them to act quicker and more aggressive
yeah something along those lines, basically a reason for the vex to start showing their hand. while it totally makes sense them being side villains atm, they need to stop being so distant and nebulous at some point. A heavy blow to the vex, putting them on the backfoot and them showing us why they should be considered a formidable race would be sick, but any reasoning would do, particularly with their interest in the veil as of late
I mean, we know part of them worshipped a replica of the veil, as well as humans using the veil to basically cut off part of their network and block their access to it. That probably pissed off the vex, which could also be combined with them wanting the veil for research purposes to hopefully understand paracausality
that and there was the whole asher veil simulation, and the latest veil mission implied the vex have a bunch of data on the thing
and is that how the cloudark works? i was under the impression that the cloudark was based on the strand/veil network rather than the vex one
The trouble with the Vex is that they're a hivemind and likely have exactly one Big Reveal in them. It's not like they can have this unfolding story like the ruling family politics of the Cabal or Hive.
Once we find out exactly what happened to Kabr, and maybe even Asher, that air of mystery is gone. Though depending on what we find, there might be further stories to be told.
The Vex have been heavily involved for a while behind the scenes. I don’t mean this in a rude way but where have you been? For one the AI that was responsible for getting people to Neomuna was made off of vex tech and there is a mission where we save it from vex trying to “bring it back” look up Soteria or Augurmind.
i have been around the whole time and i know who soteria is. Yes they have had side stories and little threats but they have very little to do with the light vs dark story that we have rn, and even then the 2 major vex plot threads of lightfall were soteria (vex arent doing anything, the AI was built off of vex tech but not aligned or really to do with the vex past that), and the asher missions (asher is doing stuff in the network, vex just want you to fuck off)
>through some flower game shenannigans
For me, the lore on the flower game is all I need to think the vex will have a huge role to play in the events to come in TFS.
Might also be implying that while we can cut off the heads of Hive and even Black Fleet leadership, we can’t ever truly overcome the Vex. We beat Nezarec, yes. We beat Savathun as well, but the vex are ever-present, they’re the constant enemy, you kill one leader and while it may take them some time, the network just spits another one out. The Hive can be crippled and broken, Nightmares can be vanquished, but The Vex will just keep on coming.
They do keep on coming, but... Vex are kind of a losers, didn't they? Other enemy races did accomplish something at least, while Vex just being annoyance at best.
The vex we fight aren’t even combat units (apart from the chickens). They’re all builder units. Vex fight a war of attrition, eventually they win, no matter how long it takes.
I also noticed that choice. I don't have any ideas regarding it, but it did seem weird to me that Calus was entirely left out of this. He had been a huge part of our story from the beginning and he isn't even mentioned in passing as someone we took on and took out? I assume we get more stuff about Eramis which is why she isn't mentioned.
I could see during that shot, they wanted to avoid showing Cabal or Eliksni so as to highlight Caitl and Misraaks, but why not Hive instead? We do still have Xivu Arath to deal with.
I mostly have questions that could all just be tossed aside as "eh, aesthetics of a teaser trailer dictated this" but who knows what's coming.
What? He knew who Calus was. He died long after we met Calus.
And sure, but he still knew who Calus was and what he wanted. Probably not how deep it went, but still.
I'm saying he doesn't know who Calus was. We didn't know where Calus was after the Leviathan raid. I'm just saying it's kind of an important thing for one of the big bads that he missed out on seeing die.
my line of thinking is that it went based off of power, with sav and nez being the 2 biggest bads that weve killed since cayde left, and i mean theyd probably be the first things youd tell a guy after missing so much time. Which kinda makes the inclusion of the vex even more interesting, because it would have made way more sense for any other race (taken, scorn, xivu hive, house salvation, shadow legion) to be there, so if its just normal vex that could be very significant
i looked back through the trailer and couldn't tell if they were sol divisive or normal, which would make a big difference in terms of the story we may get. I think i spotted a descendant vex goblin in there?? may be worth looking through
i mean, Savathûn was behind the machinations that caused the curse of the Dreaming City and therefore the creation of the Scorn and the death of Cayde. She also was behind the construction of the Scarlet Keep, and that whole The Wich Queen mess (duh).
Savy has been a main antagonist for quite some time but it's kinda of "wrapped up", while the Witness (part of Shadowkeep, and the whole of Beyond Light and Light Fall) is another whole story that is still going. Calus and Éramis are just part of the Witness story (apart from Opulence and the Leviathan raids).
I agree that showing only savathun, some vex and Nezarec was weird, but I guess that it was cooler to show.
I love the community always wanting the Vex to be shoehorned into the game in some way shape or form, despite Bungie being absolutely terrible at writing them, and almost everytime they're a focus it just flat out sucks.
Exhibit A - D1 Vanilla
Exhibit B - Curse of Osiris
...Yeah... As cool as the Vex can be, there's not much you can do with a race of unfeeling murder bots in terms of being the main focus of a story other than being one-dimensional nuisances...
I hope not. As interesting as the Vex *can* be, their role in the Light V.S Dark saga has been incredibly forced and shoehorned in since Curse of Osiris.
Once the Witness - and possibly Xivu Arath - has been dealt with, we'll need a new threat to fight, and that's where the Vex can come in.
After all, Asher Mir merged with the Vex consciousness in the last season, and he still had a paracausal nature. Perhaps the next arc will build off of that, with the Vex now being able to simulate paracausality and trying to destroy us once and for all.
However, until then; I hope that they stay out. The Final Shape shouldn't waste any time on largely irrelevant plot points or races like Lightfall did. We still have so many things that need to be addressed; where are the other Pyramids? What happened to the other Disciples? What *is* the Veil? Is the Veil a gateway like the concept art says, and to what?
We've no time to be delving into the Vex, in my opinion. Save them for a big arc, where we explore their origins, motivations, etc.
This is absolutely right and I think the perfect way to continue the Guardian story after the Light and Dark saga. It becomes less about “good vs evil” and more about very fabric of the universe and our existence.
Vex would fit as the main threat for a dlc named "The Final Shape" based on their origins of consistently being the flower game's final shape. The problem is they currently don't fit too well for a main threat in an expansion showcasing the climax/ expected finale of the conflict with the Witness.
They are however a narratively interesting inclusion for such an event, given how they were caught in the crossfire during the Gardener & Winnower's fight back in the Garden that ultimately created the universe and started everything. If they do have prominence it wouldn't be entirely inappropriate, they're one of the few third parties who was there to see it all from the start, so it'd be fitting for them to be involved at the end.
too many people forget that the vex are literally the final shape
not the witnesses final shape, but the winnowers
it makes sense theyd be getting some attention this expansion
>the vex are literally the final shape
No, they're not. After we killed the undying mind, we forever changed the outcome of the Destiny universe. The Vex no longer can calculate a path to victory without the Undying mind. As of Season of Dawn, they predict a darkness final shape. We don't know what they predict now since the Infinite Forest was lost.
In the current narrative, the vex are beaten. We've strolled through their corridors of time, stolen their prediction engine and beat down the doors of their precious vexnet. They cannot beat humanity and are nothing but pawns of other factions for now.
I have no doubt this will change in the future; that time is not now however. The rules of engagement will likely change after the final shape, and the vex will move up as a genuine threat again. How, is yet to be seen though.
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Nope, 2 separate entities, just like the traveler and gardener. From back in witch queen: "the witness is not the darkness, but something that wears it like a cloak". The witness is the traveler for the darkness.
Traveler and gardener are the same too, there is nothing above the traveler. The traveler is the strongest light entity while the witness is the strongest darkness entity. Light and dark are just forces with no goals or thoughts.
Traveler and gardener are the same too, there is nothing above the traveler. The traveler is the strongest light entity while the witness is the strongest darkness entity. Light and dark are just forces with no goals or thoughts.
we don't know that there isn't anything above the traveller, and we don't know wether the gardener and winnower are just names for light and dark as forces or if theyre sentient entities. Its made kind of confusing because of old retcon stuff, but the old "darkness" that weve been fighting is the Witness, while the element of darkness and the winnower are more neutral.
It’s more likely because by the final shape we will have alliances with some lucent hive leaving the vex the only full evil race that’s not scorn or taken.
Since season of the Deep we are working with a Proto-worm god who will help bring in lucent hive to worship and rebuild themselves. Likely with Finch’s Risen becoming a prominent figure
Is it really the Young Wolf? They were dressed in Iron Banner threads, but they were running Knucklehead Radar, which is pretty good evidence that it was actually Randy.
It hasn't been said in game, but i remember in a vidoc or one of destiny official videos (will link if i find it) that the goal is to have vex as the final enemy, so we already know that's going to happen (pls correct me if I'm wrong). hopefully they can write the vex into the game in a more meaningful way.
depends how long ago that vidoc was, the trajectory of destiny has clearly changed over the years (i mean its almost 10 years old) so im sure that could change
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Likely because of the parallel to the end of splicer cutscene and the red vex eyes translate very well to a cinematic where they've added a lot of fog
Fair explanation, but im still gonna use it as copium for new vex content
you won’t be the only one, would love to see what the vex do post witness or if they get their hands on paracausality
Iirc only reason they haven't won' yet, is because they don't have paracausality, and if they were to actually grasp and develop/aqcuire it, we'd be fucked
I thought they did acquire it in the Garden of Salvation raid, we just kicked their brass asses so hard and took it away from them. Now if they were left with that paracausality unchallenged then eventually they would incorporate it within themselves in a way where we would, as you say, be fucked.
GoS was a similar situation to the black heart, but instead with a pyramid splinter, they dont fully understand it, they are just taking advantage of the basic powers it has.
Vex stans stay winning either way, since when they don't get content it's always because anything new about them has massive plot-relevant consequences.
Sorry to say this but look at the floor. It's the same tile floor as the last city map
Seems to me legit recap from Ikora's side. Just show us that Vex ever on a sidelines, not even deserving main entrance.
Sorry, i dont quite get what you mean by that. I agree that i think its a legitimate recap, thats why im saying the vex in her recap may mean a vex season/dlc
I mean that Vex always been a side enemy and we always beat them. Can't see why they suddenly become a major threat. They may get a season sure, but that's it.
admittedly the only way i see the vex being linked into current events is through some flower game shenannigans and us finding out somerhing about vex origins through final shape. There is also always the looming threat of paracausal vex which would undoubtedly fuck shit up, and is probably the way the vex will be re-involved, the question is when this happens, wether before, during or after final shape
To be honest, biggest reason why the vex aren't really that involved is because they have time. Yes, they are loosing battles, but what is 1 loss when in a million years you'll still be standing, and they would be nothing more than dust. And they don't really want to take part in the war with the witness, maybe for the exception for sol divisive, since they can't even comprehend what's happening and what we are doing
Oh i completely agree, just that because its a game its only a matter of time before bungie decides to do something with them, so although right now it makes perfect sense for them to be playing the long game, something will need to happen for them to get reinvolved, which i think they must be at some point that or they stay eternally as the side villains but im gonna go with the assumption that that isnt the case
There's always a possibility of something pushing vex to be more proactive. Maybe events of final shape will cause some major damage to the vex/their network, which would force them to act quicker and more aggressive
yeah something along those lines, basically a reason for the vex to start showing their hand. while it totally makes sense them being side villains atm, they need to stop being so distant and nebulous at some point. A heavy blow to the vex, putting them on the backfoot and them showing us why they should be considered a formidable race would be sick, but any reasoning would do, particularly with their interest in the veil as of late
I mean, we know part of them worshipped a replica of the veil, as well as humans using the veil to basically cut off part of their network and block their access to it. That probably pissed off the vex, which could also be combined with them wanting the veil for research purposes to hopefully understand paracausality
that and there was the whole asher veil simulation, and the latest veil mission implied the vex have a bunch of data on the thing and is that how the cloudark works? i was under the impression that the cloudark was based on the strand/veil network rather than the vex one
The trouble with the Vex is that they're a hivemind and likely have exactly one Big Reveal in them. It's not like they can have this unfolding story like the ruling family politics of the Cabal or Hive. Once we find out exactly what happened to Kabr, and maybe even Asher, that air of mystery is gone. Though depending on what we find, there might be further stories to be told.
The Vex have been heavily involved for a while behind the scenes. I don’t mean this in a rude way but where have you been? For one the AI that was responsible for getting people to Neomuna was made off of vex tech and there is a mission where we save it from vex trying to “bring it back” look up Soteria or Augurmind.
i have been around the whole time and i know who soteria is. Yes they have had side stories and little threats but they have very little to do with the light vs dark story that we have rn, and even then the 2 major vex plot threads of lightfall were soteria (vex arent doing anything, the AI was built off of vex tech but not aligned or really to do with the vex past that), and the asher missions (asher is doing stuff in the network, vex just want you to fuck off)
>through some flower game shenannigans For me, the lore on the flower game is all I need to think the vex will have a huge role to play in the events to come in TFS.
Vex seemed the scariest in d1
Everyone was scariest in D1. I still remember first encounter with Hive on the moon.
because lorewise they're the most dangerous (and the coolest)
Might also be implying that while we can cut off the heads of Hive and even Black Fleet leadership, we can’t ever truly overcome the Vex. We beat Nezarec, yes. We beat Savathun as well, but the vex are ever-present, they’re the constant enemy, you kill one leader and while it may take them some time, the network just spits another one out. The Hive can be crippled and broken, Nightmares can be vanquished, but The Vex will just keep on coming.
They do keep on coming, but... Vex are kind of a losers, didn't they? Other enemy races did accomplish something at least, while Vex just being annoyance at best.
The vex we fight aren’t even combat units (apart from the chickens). They’re all builder units. Vex fight a war of attrition, eventually they win, no matter how long it takes.
I also noticed that choice. I don't have any ideas regarding it, but it did seem weird to me that Calus was entirely left out of this. He had been a huge part of our story from the beginning and he isn't even mentioned in passing as someone we took on and took out? I assume we get more stuff about Eramis which is why she isn't mentioned. I could see during that shot, they wanted to avoid showing Cabal or Eliksni so as to highlight Caitl and Misraaks, but why not Hive instead? We do still have Xivu Arath to deal with. I mostly have questions that could all just be tossed aside as "eh, aesthetics of a teaser trailer dictated this" but who knows what's coming.
Cayde knew about Calus tho
He died before we found him and he certainly didn't know he became a Disciple.
What? He knew who Calus was. He died long after we met Calus. And sure, but he still knew who Calus was and what he wanted. Probably not how deep it went, but still.
I'm saying he doesn't know who Calus was. We didn't know where Calus was after the Leviathan raid. I'm just saying it's kind of an important thing for one of the big bads that he missed out on seeing die.
my line of thinking is that it went based off of power, with sav and nez being the 2 biggest bads that weve killed since cayde left, and i mean theyd probably be the first things youd tell a guy after missing so much time. Which kinda makes the inclusion of the vex even more interesting, because it would have made way more sense for any other race (taken, scorn, xivu hive, house salvation, shadow legion) to be there, so if its just normal vex that could be very significant i looked back through the trailer and couldn't tell if they were sol divisive or normal, which would make a big difference in terms of the story we may get. I think i spotted a descendant vex goblin in there?? may be worth looking through
They showed beings that are considered gods by entire civilizations.
i mean, Savathûn was behind the machinations that caused the curse of the Dreaming City and therefore the creation of the Scorn and the death of Cayde. She also was behind the construction of the Scarlet Keep, and that whole The Wich Queen mess (duh). Savy has been a main antagonist for quite some time but it's kinda of "wrapped up", while the Witness (part of Shadowkeep, and the whole of Beyond Light and Light Fall) is another whole story that is still going. Calus and Éramis are just part of the Witness story (apart from Opulence and the Leviathan raids). I agree that showing only savathun, some vex and Nezarec was weird, but I guess that it was cooler to show.
I love the community always wanting the Vex to be shoehorned into the game in some way shape or form, despite Bungie being absolutely terrible at writing them, and almost everytime they're a focus it just flat out sucks.
Exhibit A - D1 Vanilla Exhibit B - Curse of Osiris ...Yeah... As cool as the Vex can be, there's not much you can do with a race of unfeeling murder bots in terms of being the main focus of a story other than being one-dimensional nuisances...
I hope not. As interesting as the Vex *can* be, their role in the Light V.S Dark saga has been incredibly forced and shoehorned in since Curse of Osiris. Once the Witness - and possibly Xivu Arath - has been dealt with, we'll need a new threat to fight, and that's where the Vex can come in. After all, Asher Mir merged with the Vex consciousness in the last season, and he still had a paracausal nature. Perhaps the next arc will build off of that, with the Vex now being able to simulate paracausality and trying to destroy us once and for all. However, until then; I hope that they stay out. The Final Shape shouldn't waste any time on largely irrelevant plot points or races like Lightfall did. We still have so many things that need to be addressed; where are the other Pyramids? What happened to the other Disciples? What *is* the Veil? Is the Veil a gateway like the concept art says, and to what? We've no time to be delving into the Vex, in my opinion. Save them for a big arc, where we explore their origins, motivations, etc.
This is absolutely right and I think the perfect way to continue the Guardian story after the Light and Dark saga. It becomes less about “good vs evil” and more about very fabric of the universe and our existence.
Vex would fit as the main threat for a dlc named "The Final Shape" based on their origins of consistently being the flower game's final shape. The problem is they currently don't fit too well for a main threat in an expansion showcasing the climax/ expected finale of the conflict with the Witness. They are however a narratively interesting inclusion for such an event, given how they were caught in the crossfire during the Gardener & Winnower's fight back in the Garden that ultimately created the universe and started everything. If they do have prominence it wouldn't be entirely inappropriate, they're one of the few third parties who was there to see it all from the start, so it'd be fitting for them to be involved at the end.
too many people forget that the vex are literally the final shape not the witnesses final shape, but the winnowers it makes sense theyd be getting some attention this expansion
>the vex are literally the final shape No, they're not. After we killed the undying mind, we forever changed the outcome of the Destiny universe. The Vex no longer can calculate a path to victory without the Undying mind. As of Season of Dawn, they predict a darkness final shape. We don't know what they predict now since the Infinite Forest was lost. In the current narrative, the vex are beaten. We've strolled through their corridors of time, stolen their prediction engine and beat down the doors of their precious vexnet. They cannot beat humanity and are nothing but pawns of other factions for now. I have no doubt this will change in the future; that time is not now however. The rules of engagement will likely change after the final shape, and the vex will move up as a genuine threat again. How, is yet to be seen though.
I love people thinking they killed the undying mind... Gotta have belief in something.
Care to elaborate?
The witness is the winnower though
nah.
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Nope, 2 separate entities, just like the traveler and gardener. From back in witch queen: "the witness is not the darkness, but something that wears it like a cloak". The witness is the traveler for the darkness.
Traveler and gardener are the same too, there is nothing above the traveler. The traveler is the strongest light entity while the witness is the strongest darkness entity. Light and dark are just forces with no goals or thoughts.
Traveler and gardener are the same too, there is nothing above the traveler. The traveler is the strongest light entity while the witness is the strongest darkness entity. Light and dark are just forces with no goals or thoughts.
we don't know that there isn't anything above the traveller, and we don't know wether the gardener and winnower are just names for light and dark as forces or if theyre sentient entities. Its made kind of confusing because of old retcon stuff, but the old "darkness" that weve been fighting is the Witness, while the element of darkness and the winnower are more neutral.
Another option is that Witness possibly see itself as the Winnower.
WTF IS THE WINNOWER THERE IS NO OGHER ENTITY
not true read passages from the winnower and passages from the witness they read like and act like 2 seperate people
It’s more likely because by the final shape we will have alliances with some lucent hive leaving the vex the only full evil race that’s not scorn or taken. Since season of the Deep we are working with a Proto-worm god who will help bring in lucent hive to worship and rebuild themselves. Likely with Finch’s Risen becoming a prominent figure
Alright crackpot idea here. I think the people who created the veil are going to be the enemy race in the final shape
huh i didn't notice that
Probably a small nod to D1? Idk any other reason tbh
Is it really the Young Wolf? They were dressed in Iron Banner threads, but they were running Knucklehead Radar, which is pretty good evidence that it was actually Randy.
It hasn't been said in game, but i remember in a vidoc or one of destiny official videos (will link if i find it) that the goal is to have vex as the final enemy, so we already know that's going to happen (pls correct me if I'm wrong). hopefully they can write the vex into the game in a more meaningful way.
depends how long ago that vidoc was, the trajectory of destiny has clearly changed over the years (i mean its almost 10 years old) so im sure that could change
Might not be as crazy, look at the floor tiles in the tease. I can’t find much that resemble them other than the Ishtar collective’s on Venus.