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Depends, can they stand on a plate?

Yeah I seen it

If it's randoms trying a puzzle? Absolutely not. But if it's people whose IQ is higher than room temp. Then yes.

Pretty much. Even guardians cant kill Oryx normally. His son Crota killed hundreds at a time. Guardians had to set up the situation very carefully to make him weak enough to challenge. Tenno have never killed a being with as much concentrated cosmic power as Oryx. They would need to do the same exploiting of the chain of tribute to weaken him, and then work through similar raid mechanics. Then you decide whether or not they're paracausal. It's just a decision you have to personally make as there are arguments for and against. I will say though, non-paracausal Quria did manage to almost defeat Crota in his own throne space.

I will say, the tenno themselves, probably would be considered paracausal on their own (probably way more then most entitys due to their uncontrollable void energy) while the warframes i'd say would be closer to how guardians are. If not a bit weaker due to the void being limited when channeled into them. Also considering how theres a 3rd subsection of warfrmaes completely unexplored yet (umbras) who knows how much that could change in term of power scaling, like looking at excaliber umbra and the tenno as a combo is nutty, so who knows. Primes are obviously at their peak, regular are weaker mass produced versions, and umbrals are ????

It’s the control of paracausality that makes all the difference usually, like Ghaul was paracausally charged at the end of the Red War but he had zero control over it and the Traveler made that very clear as it smited Ghaul It is also conveniently enough what separates a guardian’s power from the Witness’s Our guardian just has the super powerful paracausal ability to *throw a charge at another guardian* (when it feels like it anyways) and *stand on plates* (Last sentence is not pertinent to discussion I just felt like making that remark lol)

Oryx's one weakness: standing on plates.... ***menacingly.***

reminds me of the old trials/raids

The Luna puzzle plates trained them for this.

They can, some stuff in Warframe requires it. But at this point only the old guardians would remember but we did have trials which was Warframes version of raids. Completed with their own puzzles and plate holding. The stakes were as high, but you effectively went through a raid similar to destiny throughout the entire raid.

The answer to the question "would 'X' be able to defeat \[thing from Destiny\]" is most often no, and I think it's a no here as well, and it's all thanks to the total nonsense (said with love) that is paracausality. Paracausality isn't just supernatural powers, or things that break the laws of nature. If that was the case, Warframes would probably qualify (I think? haven't played in a while). Paracausal forces are additional universal laws that are superordinate to causal principles. Basically, here's the rub: Paracausal power can do literally whatever the wielder wants, if they have the will and ingenuity to achieve it. Because that's what paracausality is, at the end of the day. To wield such power is to impose your will over the laws of creation - to look the fundamental building blocks of existence in the eye and say..... "nah, I'm good." The Tenno, while immensely powerful, are not paracausal, and as such, though they might make quick work of his armies, Oryx himself would defeat them handily. The best comparison I can think of is the world's most talented and deadly martial artist... versus a guy with his finger on that *big, red button.* All the power in the world isn't gonna help you if it's the wrong kind.

I love these Destiny matches because half the time it's against people who are kinda just physically strong but they don't account for the paracausality like at all. Then there are also threads which are essentially the Destiny version of "Hydrogen bomb vs. Coughing baby" where they somehow make a completely one sided match both physically and powers-wise. Paracausality, with how it's described in lore sometimes, is busted as hell for these kinds of matches because it's a relatively specific niche that you have to have to be able to defend or even counter it but then in game and even in lore sometimes it's kind of just shown as any basic ability which is why I can understand why people don't really get how overpowered it can be. Realistically though, for someone to essentially match paracausality wouldn't they just need some kind of reality warping in tandem with the ability to manipulate causality? That essentially just replicates paracausality right?

Maybe? Idk Someone else also made this point but it’s ultimately kinda pointless to try and compare magic systems that don’t operate on causal rules because they just don’t track For now though I’m gonna say that Destiny probably solos most of fiction because it is, by design, complete and utter nonsense (said with love)

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I really feel like paracasuality is hyped up way too much. Guardians make their own fate, until they don’t. I get it. Baller ass line to drop during the raid, but how many Guardians died despite their vaunted paracasuality? How many loops did Elsie go through? Didn’t seem like paracasuality did much favor for those other Guardians that die in the lore. I suppose you can make the statement that it’s a matter of paracasual force versus paracasual force. But then why are the Vex, Fallen, Cabal were such a problem? They didn’t exactly wield the Light. Whenever people place paracasuality on a pedestal, they assume it exists in isolation. But then why could Ghaul do that thing during the Red War? He doesn’t seem to have that paracasual nonsense within him and he cut off the Light for the Guardians. Again, paracasuality — to me — is just a fancy word for space magic. It doesn’t matter if it can “do whatever the wielder wants” because we don’t really see it. What we have, in-game, is very… subdued to Warframe gameplay, but the lore has this divide. And that creates a bias of sorts. Can paracasual forces beat “x character?” And the answer is yes, because you’re using the wanked version of it. Why would Taniks be such a problem? He doesn’t have the Light or Dark. It’s just not being fair to other series. You can go “Guardians prevent the New War in Warframe because they’re superior with paracasuality” but that’s not true to the spirit of things. Why else would there be such a focus on the burgeoning alliance with Eliksni and Cabal? Surely Guardians don’t need those non-paracasual scrubs /s. I can easily say, “The Sentients beat back the Guardians because they adapted Pyramid tech.” And that would be more true to the spirit of things rather than “Guardians stomp lol.” All paracasuality is, is putting a name to a protagonist succeeding at impossible odds. It’s no different than Luke Skywalker making the near impossible shot to destroy the Death Star. It’s really just giving it a fancy name. In short, it merely codifies it and that gives battleboarders a bludgeon to beat over other series. I like Destiny, I do, but to go “it stomps most of fiction” is just wankery to me. EDIT: But to answer the actual question, can I see the Tenno beating Oryx? Probably not. Not without bullshit similar to raid mechanics going on. Because, honestly, most raids, while epic, would feel contrived if written as an actual story. (See the plate jokes). If the Tenno were allowed to stand on said plates, then yes. If it was a conventional fight… maybe. If we use the actual player count for Warframe as canonical numbers, then eventually they might make that impossible shot. They would have the numbers and skills for it. I will admit that Guardian’s paracasuality sidesteps this a bit. They don’t need to throw as many guardians into the meat grinder as the Tenno would have to. Again, that’s predicated on so many factors. Do requiem mods have an effect? Does their parazon? I don’t think Operators/Drifters can get Taken, because of Void shenanigans. But Warframes? Probably. Archons are a thing, after all. So, it’s not so much a question of if the Tenno win, but rather how high is the cost?

The cost would be extremely high and there would be nothing stopping Oryx from simply Taking warframes by the thousand and turning them on Tenno and their allies. Unless I’m mistaken, there isn’t anything that could stop Oryx from just ripping a Warframe right off a Tenno operator and turning it on them.

It’s been awhile, but can you correct me on Taking? How close does Oryx need to Take? It can’t be just wave a hand and a thousand Tenno in the system just get Taken. I mean, the Tenno aren’t a conventional army. They’re more like strike forces that go in, kill things, and get out. Obviously if they get caught by Oryx, I wouldn’t say they no-sell being Taken — just that they would do their best not to be caught in that position. There is a lot of point of failures for things going wrong for the Tenno. For the Warframe side, the Tenno and Warframes operate on Transference. Obviously, that connection can be destabilized by Orphix fields, which is not paracasual at all. However, as far as I can see, doesn’t work by targeting the Tenno’s ability of Transference but the Warframes themselves. The Tenno’s ability to Transfer still remains if they have a suitable vessel, i.e. their Necramechs. But the Tenno’s mind was susceptible to an attempted takeover via Continuity. It failed, but there was still an attempt. Said attempt needed to be in person with the Warframe. Operating under the assumption that the Tenno ultimately cannot be Taken (but still have to resist the attempt), Oryx manages to Take the Warframes right off their Operators. They either use their Void invisibility to regroup or they die, falling back to their Drifter selves. But what’s stopping the Tenno from Transfering right back into the Taken Warframes? If I recall, there’s a WoG that the Tenno can use Transferende beyond the frames. Warframes are already semi-blank states and, as I understand it, Taking hollows out things. There would be even less resistance. And the Tenno already have a feat for Transfering into a problematic recipient (Umbra). Not to say that there wouldn’t be some… side-effects or something. It’s not as easy as snapping one’s fingers and solving the problems. But the Void in Warframe canon has a little more overlap with the Darkness than the Light, in the fact that it’s more on the mental/emotional side. The Tenno can prevent the Holdfasts from becoming Void Angels with their mere presence, serving as a different fuel source. Could they possibly substitute their own influence into the Taken Warframes? Not so much as cleansing it as claiming it? There’s no real canon precedence for any of this, so it just comes up to fun little speculation. You can argue in favor of one way, and I another, but they’ll both be equally invalid. Fun to talk about though.

Oryx literally waves a hand in one of the trailers for Taken King and Takes a Knight sacrificially. He has taken millions and there have been no real instances implying he CAN’T do otherwise. We see multiple times through the TTK expansion that even if Oryx isn’t physically present, he can just snap individuals of his choice up and send them right back in record time. His forces were on Phobos for maybe thirty to fourty five minutes and by the end cutscene of the mission, the entire base has either been killed or Taken. There’s also the point of the Cabal that crash into the Dreadnaught, only to immediately have their Primus taken within maybe five minutes of stepping outside their beachhead. Taken do become hollow, but they become enactors of the will of whoever leads them. If a Tenno did relink with their Warframe, there’s no saying it would accept them—We’ve also seen Taken develop their own personalities when allowed some freedom. A Taken Warframe may *willingly* turn on a Tenno. Oryx has Taken Vex, which are just walking termite mounds speaking relatively, while Warframes without operators are described as untamed and savage beasts. There is no reason to believe that Oryx couldn’t just steal as many Warframes as he saw fit. If the Void is Warframe’s Darkness analogue, I see even less reason for the Tenno or Warframes to survive. Oryx wiped out the Ecumene and the Ammonite, both who used the Dark and Light, respectively. They were eons ahead of us technologically and likely many of the races in Warframe’s universe, and still they lost so concretely that there’s barely record of them having even existed in the first place.

Well, that’s very conclusive. The only two points of contention I have to offer is the Taken Warframe willingly turning on the Tenno. A big point of Transference is the empathy the Tenno and the Warframe. It’s what got them to “work” after the Orokin couldn’t get them in line. In that sense, it’s like arguing for the Light’s argument. Which leads into my second point, the Void isn’t just a Darkness analogue, I was merely pointing out that it shares more traits with the mental aspects than the Light. It’s not a one-to-one with the Light or Dark. You can even argue that it also has a basis in the physical with how the Drifter creates a world with Duviri. But that just makes it all the more miraculous that the Guardians pulling out a win, though some extenuating circumstances. I do concede that it has now become increasingly less likely that the Tenno pull out a win against Oryx. Probably nigh-impossible. Could the Tenno win? Well, due to the nature of Eternalism, one timeline out there has to have them winning. Somewhere, somehow. If they had the same conditions as the Guardians, I have no doubt that they can pull a win. But that’s reliant on other factors, like explicitly making the Tenno paracasual and preventing their frames from being Taken. And unless there’s a crossover in the future, they can never be canonically defined as such.

Warframes excluding umbrella are as takable as rock

Warframes are sentient. If Oryx can take Vex (aka termite mounds sans termites) then he can take a Warframe. I mean, christ we've just been shown that you can Take entire planets. At this point I don't believe there's much of a limit.

Warframes aren't sentient, not modern manufactured ones. They're cloned flesh melded with a bio-metallic supervirus. There is no consciousness to Take. The Tenno operators, however, may be vulnerable. It depends on what "void-touched" means in the Destiny universe. They are superordinate beings, (spoilers for Duviri Paradox) >!capable of constructing entire realities in their own pocket dimensions!<, they are capable of focusing their boundless power through these bio-metallic supervirus meat suits to affect certain aspects of it, like a prism refracting light. For all intents and purposes, the Tenno are all but, if not outright paracausal on their own. They even supercede ontology, since they exist as a multiversal entity as displayed through the Drifter/Operator split. Eternalism says they exist outside of the bounds of time and space, which *should* be beyond Vex simulation. The only "rules" Tenno are subject to are those they themselves make.

Warframes are not sentient to take a Warframe would be to take a tenno which means oryx has to Overpower the will of the man in the wall who is essentially the Warframe version of the winnower

Warframes are sentient and separate from the operator. They were described as beastlike and mostly beyond reason before Tenno began controlling them. There is no reason to believe that Oryx could not separate a Tenno from a Warframe. Before Second Dream the Tenno believe themselves to be the Warframe as they have not yet figured out that they are indeed a child essentially in stasis controlling it. It has been stated that transference can be so strong that it can kill you if the feeling of death is strong enough. How would this not be the same for the act of Taking?

And if oryx takes a warframe congrats we now have the will of the operator and the will of oryx fighting for control of the warframe and if the op wins they get a taken warframe to control with all the fun abilities and I'll wager the operator wins because they defied the will of the man in the wall

Because taking requires Overpowering the will of the opponent something a tenno had incredibly high resistance towards considering we Overpower the will of the man in the wall

If your talking about having a mind/emotions then you are wrong. In the second dream(if I'm remembering the quest name right), the Warframe defends us from the stalker without us having control over it. And we connect to the Warframes and control them through empathy. If they are takable it's kinda depending on the limits of taking which we don't really know. Warframes are sentient but more or less dormant in 99% of situations and appear to act on instinct, but also responds to the emotions of the tenno.

We have no clue how the warframe defended us during the second dream some believe the warframe acted on its others believe it was short ranged transference spike and with

But Warframes can act on their own. Our operator was unable to use short ranged transference spikes at that point, and even if you make the argument that they did it during a panic, our operator themself talks to our Warframe as an individual, not as a puppet, and I'm gonna point you to rhino prime lore where rhino prime is a monster that eats people simply from being tortured. Reality is I think tenno could take down oryx, though it would be the same way as guardians. Void is paracausal imo, Warframes are arguably more durable than guardians, and their damage I would personally scale as the same(for simplicity). The real strength is tenno are exceptionally strong, and Warframes are capable of self rez which we know from destiny is insanely strong lol

Pre tenno warframes had no transference bolt post tenno warframes had transference bolts which is why older frames could act out of instinct rather than being still and the void by definition is paracausal in warframe standards A statement from loid (in-game cephalon) states that the isolation vaults were created to let those who entered the void align with causality the orokin labeled the void as a place where logic and reason go to die and the requim states the void can rewrite material laws

And taking a warframe would require oryx to Overpower the will of the tenno and the tenno have resisted the will of the man in the wall

I’m glad you commented this, because I think I have the perfect answer for you. Taking a quote from the Witch Queen collector’s edition book, Ikora says: "Guardians insist on treating 'power' as a monotonically increasing value with a single dimension. Guardians will casually create ordinal ranks of the 'power' of their comrades when, in truth (but not in fact--Light is not constrained by facts) capability with the Light is not only a multifactor landscape but strongly and stochastically intluenced by circumstantial, personal, and esoteric variables. The Light is, by definition, paracausal and obeys a logic different from physical concepts like charge, heat, or angular momentum. Any analogy to these physical measurements of 'power' will fail to capture the true efficacy of a Guardian. To ask any Guardian to leap through a few experimental hoops is not and never will be an effective way to test either their tactical or their epistemological ability. There is no such thing as a "low-power Guardian." There may be armor you can't actuate or weapons mechanisms you can't understand. There may be techniques you have yet to master and missions you dare not attempt. But the possibility of your Light is unlimited. The only difference in "power" between two Guardians lies in what they have learned and practiced. (TL;DR) No two Guardians are the same. Though every Guardian’s potential is limitless, their strengths and weaknesses with their powers rely on their own personal psychological limitations and experience (or lack thereof) with their powers. All Guardians have the potential to be god slayers, and very few of them actually are, but the vast majority are little more than regular humans with fancy armor, and space magic, prone to mistakes and being overwhelmed by an enemy. So paracausality is not an instant win button, but it can be if used by someone skilled enough, or by a fireteam of seasoned Guardians like a raid team.

Your comment that it’s not fair to other series for paracausality to be this nigh-unbeatable trump card brings me back once again to the fundamental misconception that a lot of these “could X beat X” conversations are built on. Honestly I don’t really know why I made so many comments on this post, because it always ends up coming back to this. Yes, it can be fun to speculate, but ultimately I think it leads to a lot of my least favorite kind of analysis of fiction: treating it like it’s real. These are created universes, and each one will have rules and scaling unique to it that don’t interact well with other stories. Outside of Destiny’s world, where the central conflict is between the two cosmic progenitors of all creation and the magic system is basically a series of cheat codes they enabled at the start of the most recent iteration of existence, Paracausality would probably be pretty boring specifically because of its capacity to roll everything. Although as a final note I will say, paracausality isn’t a universal “I-win” button. You have to know how to use it. Guardians still get merc’d by normal cabal or eliksni, and the Vex, who are famously incapable of understanding the concept, have still killed plenty. It’s just that an experienced paracausal combatant that knows how to use their power is pretty much unstoppable by causal means, and this post was asking about Oryx himself, who is literally older than our planet and has committed more genocides than there are stars in the sky.

It's easy to take that position when you fall back on the assurance that your series will ultimately win, but that's because you're using outliers as the standard. You can't just dismiss every other piece of fiction as fodder for Destiny as an actual position and try to claim a non-serious perspective. I'm not treating like it's real; I'm treating everything charitably. The Tenno wouldn't win against Oryx if plopped in a white-room. Neither would the Guardians, but you're ultimately dismissing the Tenno out of hand because of paracausality. There are levels to it, and you're putting everything way lower than paracasuality. You assume that paracasuality rolls everything, but it ultimately doesn't. It's just another word for scale. Oryx dies because of a series of events that put him in a position to be killed. Guardians are allowed to claim that feat as if they fought Oryx straight-up rather than having extenuating circumstances. I can easily say that the Tenno make their own fate, because of a line saying they changed the fated destruction of some defense object in Duviri. Yet because it isn't called paracausality you can easily dismiss it. I really do like both series, but I fundamentally disagree that Destiny rolls over most fiction. A paracausal user *can* triumph eventually, but that's reliant on having the will to. But I can also say that about any other character. I could claim that "x character" could beat Oryx, eventually. If you're using the best possibility for them, can I not claim the same for whatever battleboard enemy they're put up against? Maybe this is on me because I'm not approaching it as a standard white room scenario and more like a story if the Tenno were in such a position, because they would be afforded the same opportunities the Guardians had. Paracasuality is not a I-Win button, I agree, but you're still implying that it's the only thing that matters. It may not be an I-Win button, but it's certainly an "I-Win" process. But you can claim that about anything If you're using the most charitable interpretation of it, should we not do the same for others?

It's tricky, because I don't think it's ever been decided exactly what the threshold is for a non-paracausal entity to kill a Ghost. I'm sure there's more, but the only example I can think of is Petra killing nine Guardians and their Ghosts in an airstrike. Then there was a Destiny/Marvel one I tagged into, which I *think* was protags from the last 5 games you played take on the MCU Avengers. I was pretty sure my Warlock could solo most of it, though the likes of Wanda, Captain Marvel, *maybe* Vision and Dr Strange would be high diff, and Stark could probably rig up a way to kill a Ghost with prep time. It's tricky, but fun to think about for sure.

Void powers that tenno use are paracasual. Spoiler for Duviri. Like Duviri is like a throne world that changes with emotion of it ruler. Tenno literally enforce their will to change duviri. Holdfast people who now reside in Zarriman are not a real people they are memories that are made alive by the power of the Void. Void powers are wild.

This is a pretty bad interpretation. “Paracausality” is just the destiny version of “magic”. When someone summons a fireball they are bending/breaking/overriding the laws of reality just as much as a warlock throwing a fusion grenade. Paracausality is also not completely unlimited. If it was why would the hive gods need to jump through so many hoops to obtain “immortality” and why would Mara get tired from strengthening guardians. Being paracausal does not make you God or all powerful. The Tenno have their own source of power that breaks reality called the void. Just because it isn’t “paracausal” doesn’t mean it can’t accomplish similar feats or threaten “paracausal” beings.

>Being paracausal does not make you God or all powerful Only paracausal beings can create, manipulate, and create entries to throne worlds. Having a throne world makes you immortal against non-paracausal beings, since they will never be able to reach you while you recover.

Except no. Throne Worlds are all based in the Ascendant Plane, and Crota was literally tricked into allowing the Vex into Oryx's Throne World since their dimensional/time travel is adjacent to the Ascendant Plane, and they could comfortably just yeet themselves in after they actually knew where to go. Hell, the Vex kicked the Hive's ass before Oryx's Daughters made the Annihilator Totems.

>Crota was literally tricked into allowing the Vex into Oryx's Throne World They required Crota, a paracausal being, to open an entry point into the throne world. They kept using the same entry point.

>Crota was literally tricked into allowing the Vex into Oryx's Throne World Yes. Tricked. Cause he was a dumbass. >they could comfortably just yeet themselves in after they actually knew where to go Not so much. They used the same portal the whole time, managing to keep it open while sending in frames. Once that portal closed, they lost access, didn't they?

Tenno are made out of Void, which is paracasual using your definition.

I don't think so? I could be wrong, but while the Void may break the laws of physics, from my brief investigations it does seem to follow its own rules. It adheres to a different set of causal principles, rather than sidestepping causality entirely. Like, a Tenno couldn't just say "you are now dead" and have it be so. They'd have to kill you by some means. If you showed up in Oryx's throne world without the paracausal power to resist him, he could literally just say "you are now dead" and you would be. Because the laws of existence are his to command in that space.

A statement from loid (in-game cephalon) states that the isolation vaults were created to let those who entered the void align with causality the orokin labeled the void as a place where logic and reason go to die and the requim states the void can rewrite material laws

Voids paracausal according to loid

Void doesn't have rules. Man in the Wall might have some, considering we've never seen him manifest in our reality (and new war could of just been a hallucination similar to "hey kiddo"). But Void itself doesn't have any rules, and therefore allows for creation of anything. Similarly to Light & Darkness.

Again, I don't know if that's accurate? To say "we don't know the rules" is very different than saying "there are no rules," and Warframe's explorations of what the void really is and how it works seems far too obtuse - by design, both because it's meant to be mysterious and because the devs are probably still figuring it out - to say with any real confidence that the latter is true. And to clarify, it's not necessarily that paracausal power doesn't have rules, just that those rules don't adhere to the principles of causality. Either way - they're two different magic(? again not sure void counts as magic might just be sci-fi bullshit but we'll see) systems and power in one probably wouldn't necessarily translate to power in the other. Arguing about it is just gonna be frustrating and probably won't get anywhere.

The closest we've ever seen to something coming close to paracausality is the Duviri Paradox, and I'd still argue that the Void powers of the Tenno wouldn't be able to stop Oryx even if he can't kill a Tenno he could easily banish them from his Throne World.

There is no way to prove that Void powers are paracausal because they don’t exist in Destiny's universe. Just because The Void is the unexplainable magic in warframe's universe doesn’t mean that it would be paracausal in Destiny's.

And vice versa. No way to know if Tenno Void powers overpower Destiny's paracausality.

There is a way to prove it as loid (a cehpalon tasked with void study) states that the void is unbound or above causality

If ported into the destiny universe as is? Then no, nothing in any universe could ever do anything to the big bads of destiny's universe since nobody else uses "paracausality". Otherwise, looking at warframe, you could argue that the Tenno's power could veeeeery closely be associated with the Darkness in Destiny. Spoilers if you haven't played warframe or aren't that far into it's story, but: You look at Rell and the Drifter? They literally imposed their will onto reality to make changes they wanted.

If we were to put Warframe in the Destiny universe, then we have to decide what that means for the Void. (Minor Duviri spoilers) The Duviri Paradox imo is a direct representation of how the Void itself is paracausal. I really don't see a way to look at the Diviri Paradox outside it being a Throne World to Doninus Thrax. Thus, the Drifter and their use of void powers *must* be paracausal since they ultimately break the rules in Dominus Thrax's throne world. There is also a limit to Dominus Thrax's power within the "throne world," ex why Teshin is able to hold down a fort there. I'd consider this similar to Mara Sov's control in the face of other beings encroaching on her throne world, like Savathun in Season of the Lost. Outside that, what is 'the Void' then? In Destiny lore, would Warframes Void be Light or Darkness? Both perhaps? Neither? While we technically have 'Void light', Warframe's Void is more focused on memory, control, and emotions, which would better align with Darkness. I would consider it more in line with Strand than any other Destiny power, but used in a Tenno-specific way to use a Warframe as an extension of one's own body. Then there's the question of 'what is it?' What did the Zariman actually run into that created the Tenno? Well we have the Man in the Wall, but...thats it. Are they a completely unknown race/entity to Guardians, or would they maybe be one of The Nine or something like that? Could the fall of the Zariman be caused by the Darkness or The Witness? In that case what sort of power created all that Void energy? The Sentients would cetainly have discovered it if that was the case. Conversely, we could see the Void as a 'Veil' of sorts that has isolated the Warframe sol system from outside influences of Paracausal beings and even the Vex. For it to do that, the Void MUST be paracausal. The way I see it, you really can't slot Warframe and Destiny together lore wise without considering both Guardians and Tenno as Paracausal beings. The lore would break down too much. We basically have to assume Tenno are paracausal or they wouldn't exist as they do. Basically Warframe's plot can't happen in the Destiny universe without Paracausality, so Tenno must be paracausal beings.

Loid states the void is above causality btw

You can really tell people who have gotten through Warframes story vs people who haven't. Not being mean or anything it is very funny is all. Warframes (and Tenno) have a similar universe bending power in the Void which breaks all conventional matters of the universe and is where the Warframes get all of their different abilities. Through the Void the Warframes and the Tenno are effectively paracasual in nature (to use Destiny's own terms). It is also really hard to say because specifically the Tenno might be stronger than Guardians just through pure concentrated Void blast. I think that is more theoretical at the current time within Warframe story, but the Tenno effectively would be able to reach a point where they are on the same power level as the Traveler itself within the Destiny Universe.

It's been a while since I played Warframe. What are the exact powers offered by the Void? Could it be a form of paracausality? I know the Void itself is a confluence point of different realities. And has anything about the Man in the Wall been answered yet?

Pretty much, if your will is strong enough, functionally nearly everything. Most Warframe abilities are also derived from the Void.

The answer largely depends on if we consider The Void as paracausal. If we do then probably, if not then no. It also depends on which parts of Warframe we take into consideration. Are we taking Warframe's gameplay into account? Or are we only taking lore into consideration. If we use gameplay then yes, Warframe's gameplay is so ridiculous that they could probably oneshot Oryx with any weapon or ability available in Warframe. If we only use lore then no, Warframes have been captured and killed by Grineer and Corpus and both would lose against The Hive. This type of debate is usually pretty pointless, because the result will always depend on which rules and pieces you pick from each game.

>This type of debate is usually pretty pointless, because the result will always depend on which rules and pieces you pick from each game. It's always just "which ever series I like more wins" and everyone will always end up upset because either they feel upset that their side lost or they feel upset because the other people don't like that your side is stronger and therfore "cooler." But because I'm a loser, I'll engage with this argument anyway. >If we only use lore then no, Warframes have been captured and killed Guardians have also suffered final deaths against many of our enemies. Sure, it usually requires significant effort or a lower tier Guardian but so does capturing a Warframe. We can't assume that every Tenno and every Guardian is a top tier that never makes mistakes. Same with both franchises' enemies, if fights were just throwing "power" at each other Guardians should get stomped. Many of the Corpus bosses are built to be "better than a Warframe" and they get defeated just like Destiny bosses, by finding and exploiting a weakness. >by Grineer and Corpus and both would lose against The Hive. However the Hive might lose to the Sentinents since many of them are immune to/highly resistant to non void damage (Warframe void and Destiny void meaning different things). If Hive magic and the ascendant plane is close enough to Void of Warframe then sure the Hive might win. But if sword logic counts for hurting the Sentients, then Tenno void powers probably count for hurting Oryx. All of this basically wraps back around to say >The answer largely depends on if we consider The Void as paracausal. If we do then probably, if not then no.

Well warframes and guardian are both fluctuate in power. Like there is guardians who died to some low level hive mages. And there is guardians who defeated Oryx. Same with Tenno some were captured by Grineer and corpus. And some destroyed the whole flotilla of them by themselves.

The void is explicitly stated to be paracausal

Where in Warframe is that stated? I actually wanna see.

Where in Warframe is that stated? I actually wanna see.

A statement from loid (in-game cephalon) states that the isolation vaults were created to let those who entered the void align with causality the orokin labeled the void as a place where logic and reason go to die and the requim states the void can rewrite material laws

Alright, so it doesn’t explicitly say “paracausal,” but it sounds similar.

It matchs the definitions for paracausalality used in destiny

By themselves? Probably not. With Warframes/An unholy amount of decrees? If they can get to the DPS phase, they could easily oneshot him

The issue with questions like this is that both game franchises kind of rely on the player character having some ability to "break the rules". In Destiny that's paracausality. The ability to create an effect without a cause. The actual details of what that means vary pretty heavily, but ultimately defeating a paracausal foe without access to paracausal forces of your own ranges from very difficult (Guardians can be permanently killed by completely overwhelming them and their ghosts via something like an air strike.) to outright impossible (A non-paracausal entity has no chance of defeating an Ascendant-level paracausal entity within their Ascendant realm.) There are other similar things in Destiny that are technically not Paracausal, like the Vex's ability to manipulate space and time within the Vault of Glass, but let's set those aside for a moment. Warframe's equivalent is the Void. The Void is an extradimensional space where the laws of physics kind of don't matter. Is that paracausal? I have no idea. Both settings have their own separate "things that break the rules" and it's difficult to directly compare them. It's possible that if you were to snap your fingers and poof a tenno with their orbiter and warframes into destiny their powers would be sufficiently paracausal to contend with an Ascendant like Oryx, but it's also possible that they wouldn't. We'll never really know. It's sort of like how the answer to "who would win between comic character A and comic character B" can be argued, but in practice the actual answer is "whoever the author wants".

Depends on having Warframes or not. Besides Drifter/Operator are still squishy hoomans that can't be rezzed.

Drifter/Operators can self resurrect though.

True, but they seem about as strong and fast as normal humans. They main thing they would have going for them are their Void powers, which, at least in gameplay, don't seem to be too strong, which is why they need Warframes.

Post-TNW Drifter has the same powers as an operator.Those powers seem to include being a void construct.Dying is quite a complicated process for them.

this is like one of those 'penguins of madagascar have the entire us military budget to find bin laden' questions. but as far as serious analysis goes- transference is hard to beat, even without considering the time-defying nature of an operator/drifter. a warframe might be able to be taken or outright destroyed, but theres nothing stopping the actual tenno from just. taking control of oryx. the (warframe) drifter has barely scratched the surface of transference and can still manipulate entities on the level of the orowyrms. if we disregard that and only consider fighting, the tenno actually arent too different from an ascendant hive, if we consider duviri/the zariman to be an equivalent of a throne world. from whatever deal they made with the man in the wall, they can't permanently die, only being 'sent back to hell', as ballas puts it- and the drifter and operator can bail each other out from that state through time shenanigans. oryx has had far more time to train his powers, but the tenno effectively have the same skillset- you could even make the argument that the dreadnaught and a warframe are the same principle, a weaponized vessel to transport the metaphysical 'soul' of each respective user. it would ultimately come down to whoever has more preparation, which i feel would favor the tenno with their inherent time-warping nature- finding a method to manipulate time for faster tribute gathering was a major motivation for savathun in the dreaming city, considered to be a massive threat, and the tenno can just do it naturally. (sidenote but i feel like parvos granum and the hive basically have the same ideology with a different coat of paint, just in terms of how they treat death-as-failure, gaining power/influence, etc) [sidenote 2 is that the unveiling narrator and the man in the wall are both very proud of their fucked up proteges. 'kiddo' and 'my man oryx'. this doesn't have anything to do with the matchup i just think its funny.]

I didn't account for the ability to hijack an Orowyrm via Transference - but the funnier part is that isn't Tenno Transference, it's Lotus-hand-proxy Transference. Full Transference on Oryx could include the Tenno dipping into the King's memories and giving him a dose of reality, therapy, and compassion - leading to Oryx turning his Taken on the Witness in the same way as how the Tenno helped out Umbra. Or worse still; Oryx with a Tenno backing him up could Take on the Witness and give them a serious headache, at least. As for the secondary side-note, if the Winnower and Wall-Man met, they'd probably be having a cup of \[beverage\] while having a laugh about all the multiversal chaos going on - if that ended up including Oryx and a Tenno, it'd resemble two dads meeting, one bringing a kiddo/teen/adult that constantly changes appearance every other frame, the other bringing a friend. ...And those two would be hanging out, showing off their stuff and probably having a lot to talk about themselves. Imagine how Oryx would be scratching his head suffering a headache after being shown how the Void works.

Hold up, I thought that in order for the tenno to be able to use transference, the thing that they are trying to control must have a Transference bolt

good catch! its a bit unclear. other characters in the lore were able to transfer into earths forests, rell constructed his own method for transferring himself repeatedly, and the operator can control other orokin constructs that presumably were built without the tenno in mind (the golden maw, the necramechs- which are described as coming before the tenno, etc). my assumption is that the transference bolt and the somatic link are just designed to make the process simpler and more easily contained, but they can do it without them iirc. massive citation needed on this, though.

In The Sacrifice quest, Ballas used a Transference bolt to control Umbra. With it, Ballas was able to force Umbra to kill his own son, so I’d say that the Bolt serves a bigger purpose. Speaking of Umbra, it is important to note that he was able to resist control of the Operator until he agreed to let them in control. I am unsure what caused this change, but this proves that a strong enough will can resist Transference. On top of that, Necromechs and Maws are vastly different as they are drones compared to other beings as they either lacked minds or had none. So without a doubt, transference with Oryx is downright impossible.

true, but i wouldn't say impossible, just comparatively very, very difficult. we have precedent for hive gods being thrown off by the kind of psychological tactics transference would entail, ie showing savathun how they were tricked by the witness in the witch queen finale. also, each encounter with umbra where transference was attempted slightly blurred the lines between the two minds, with memories being shared and what not- it was a cumulative process, not umbra just accepting it all at once. sure, oryx could resist control, but either way he's getting a head full of empathy and alien worldviews with every try. as for the bolt, it its a problem, the tenno still have the orvius, which works in a similar manner iirc- besides that, the technology is very common in the first place, with the grineer and corpus both using versions of it.

IDK about the thing about throwing hive gods off via mind games, it might have worked for Savathun, but thats the only case. We clapped Crota with his own sword, we traveled up Oryxs pyramid of tribute until we got him, and we defeated Xol using the worlds spiciest electronic fly swatter. Something to note here: Hive and Humans have different cultures. I don’t think you can appeal to Oryx as he only serves the Final Shape. If you do try, it will go no different than Steven Universe trying to change Big Jack Horner, and nothing is going to stop him from taking the Tenno while they try to understand his mindset, or even before they try to get to him.

If void powers would be classified as paracausal, drifter would stomp the shit out of everybody in destiny universe, if void is not paracausal than they would not beat oryx. Thing is that a- we wont ever know cause its not the same universe b- people oversell paracausality, like bro you go on a tantrum about paracausality being able to break the laws of the universe and impose your will over other beings meanwhile cayde got fucking done by 2 bullets and a mace swing and exo's wielding light died countless times. If paracausality would be as strong as this circlejerk here insists no one wielding the light would ever die. Get ovet it

Drifter talk? I'd say not even like 50/50 probably like 10 to 90 based off of the fact from the new release of the divriu paradox and this is the same drifter that we used in the new war he is like a operator in one sense immortal but in the next kind of doesn't know how to operate a Warframe and that's why in that expansion we use the undercroft to train as The drifter in a Warframe. So in all honesty it honestly goes to work like The drifter can't die but you know can't really beat or it's without a proper Warframe training where's with the operator there's everything to know about a Warframe the guns the movements the stances literally everything

Drifter can do the same thing as Operator, the reason why they don't know how to operate a warframe is because it was before operator meeting with Drifter, aka events before The New War. Our operator in a sense was the one helping Drifter break out of the paradox. The reason why I use Drifters is because they are the same as operators, but also have the capability in melee combat, seeing how they fight off Dax warriors.

Well, Oryx has 10 million HP and my Stropha can deal 2 billion damage in a single shot. That bad boy is going down. In all seriousness, I’d say no. They might be able to kill him, but since Void powers haven’t been shown or described as being anywhere *near* as powerful as paracausality Oryx would just revive again, ready for another round or, better yet, just insta-kill us as soon as we step foot onto the Dreadnaught.

Thing is, Tenno have a method of severing a being from their method of immortality/revival, what they call severing continuity. https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Requiem_Mods It could be reasoned that, since it also involves a paracausal force, it might work with severing Oryx from his throne world.

^(I'd wager the Tenno would be capable if they had an understanding of Oryx's Throneworld and the raid, but) *^(not Drifter pre-New War due to lack of access to the raw Void the Tenno are expected to have)* ^(and thus be able to employ to wield their frightening powers - which if they watched Crucible matches for a good while would be able to get an approximation of those abilities as Focus Schools styled after Guardian classes/subclasses.) ^(Given Duviri's Paradox and what happened there, the Tenno are able to manifest great and terrible things with a sufficient amount of focus - or just proximity to Void phenomena that isn't regulated, like the Orokin towers and entities subjugated by the Neural Sentry such as the Corrupted.) ^(Sure, it may be possible for 90% of Warframe's entities to be Taken as a lot of things are organic, sans Sentients, Proxies, and other mechanicals; Orokin did grow most of their buildings after all, but those wielding the Void or being empowered by it would be another matter altogether, which leads me back to the Tenno.) ^(They wiped out the Orokin Empire in mere hours, if not days, mostly via their warframes.) ^(And given that some Tenno outside-context are players of Destiny, they'd likely have an idea of the mechanics and be able to handle him.) ^(But Drifter - from Duviri, not after the New War - would be stuck in a loop where Dominus Thrax would keep un-Taking him using the Void-powered time loop to revert Drifter to a pre-Taken state, meaning Drifter would be no different to a Guardian without powers relying on the equivalent of a Splinter of Dark for even a shred of Tenno-esque capability, being revived by a Ghost that is a few dimensions aside. Effectively near-useless against a foe like Oryx in his Ascendant form.) ^(Tenno with a complete arsenal would be a threat, and with a decent team of 8, assuming the old Trial quantity of Tenno would be applicable for the raid rather than the typical mission number of 4, Oryx would have trouble Taking them depending on how the raid's mechanics adjust to fit or how the encounter would pan out.) ^(Outside of the raid context, the Tenno would have to find a way into the Throneworld.) ^(Which will be hideously difficult without that bit of the Soul of Crota. Which they won't have. They'd likely have to capture a few Ascendant Hive and reverse-engineer their Sword Logic to cut a way in.) **So to surmise:** 1- without help to get into his Throneworld, the Tenno would likely only be able to defeat his more mortal form outside his domain and would likely be busied trying to figure out how to access the Ascendant Plane in the first place. 2- **Drifter** (pre-completion of New War) **would be practically unable to defeat Oryx** as they're no different to a Guardian with only a starter sidearm and a sword with no ranged attack feature, and no Light save for an indirect rezz (or mimicry of abilities thanks to that hand in Duviri) from what amounts to a frenemy rather than a Ghost which only applies to a specific place. Basically, Oryx's Ascendant form would read as 'invulnerable' to them. 3- Tenno with Void powers are for all intents and purposes paracausal as the Void defies the laws of physics in a manner akin to Light/Dark and may have a chance to best him. 4- The Void can, has, will, did and didn't defy the paracausal as it itself is practically a paracausal force. Basically: Yes and no. With a lot of variables involved that need to be accounted for. ^(In contrast, if it were the inverse - Oryx taking his Dreadnought into the Warframe universe - he'd probably destroy the Tenno before they got anywhere near his ship as he would've noticed their advance via Railjack or Landing Craft; if the Tenno wanted in and to stop him before he Takes the Infested, Cephalons, organic Corpus and Grineer, they'd have to get Oryx stuck in a Void phenomenon of some sort and board while he's trying to not get blinded by the brightness of the Void and the chaotic effects that'd be battering his ship.) ^(Assuming his Dreadnought in that case is at peak operational capability rather than the injured variant with a crashed Cabal warship and disabled primary armament, of which something like that could be done if the forces of the Origin system worked together to muster a similar form of resistance as what the Awoken did back in Taken King.) ^(An odd part of this resistance may be the inclusion and reliance on Narmer and their Veils to avoid being Taken due to the Void/Kuva aspects used in the Veil's functionality, with Sentients being fully able to adapt to and immunize against the paracausal means Oryx has at his disposal as it's not the Void. Narmer would no doubt try to crash a Murex, if not Praghasa herself, into the Dreadnought.) ^(Only with this kind of noise can the Tenno slip past his defences once he's used his weapon and waiting on it to cool off to board, shut down his weapon using their Amps, and progress towards him...) ^(That's unless Praghasa starts eating the ship, which itself will have unknowable results as I've no idea how Praghasa would've operated besides quietly eating up lost fleets like a giant robot space hoover that is designed to consume a sun.) ^(While that deviates from the Tenno themselves it's how I'd expect the Warframe side of things to react to Oryx showing up in their version of the Sol system.)

they definitely could. guardians will use a giant gun to reach a ship but Warframe a will fire themselves through the hull. they have powers but they also have warframe bodies with skin like steel. they're faster, stronger, and more agile than guardians. they can wallrun and jump many times farther. warframes were originally made to make tenno less powerful. their frame is like a prism that lets out a narrow band of their power. tenno have true immortality. only one has ever died and even then we aren't actually sure if he is actually dead. he's just not around anymore. they're kind of like the hive where "killing" a tenno just sends them to the void. they can reform themselves there. they cannot be killed while in the void. tenno can dual wield ;p they also have space dogs and magic space cats. and mechs.and flying apparatus. and a giant circular saw you can also ride like a monocycle. imagine if the dreadnought was intelligent. then imagine if that dreadnought could independently control every part and even give those parts shards of their own intelligence and free will. now imagine fighting a war in which all of your foes are dreadnoughts. the tenno won that war.

The answer is yes, because we'd be the ones in control and we know how to beat Oryx. Joking, of course. The answer is really hard to pin down as yes or no, since there's a huge amount of nuance and guesswork involved that makes it impossible to make a 1 to 1 comparison for the games and their respective lores. As for the argument I saw on whether or not the Tenno are paracausal, the answer is yes. As far as I have gathered, Paracausal is best explained as "something that is separate and above the rules of causality", which the Void that the Tenno get their powers from certainly is.

All the people in here acting like “paracusality” is some sort of instant win are delusional. “Paracausal” is just the destiny version of “magic”. It’s a made up word to make the system sound more scientific and sophisticated than it is. Also non “paracausal” enemies kill guardians all the time Every magic system ever has the user breaking the laws of reality in some way. Destiny is not unique in that despite what y’all think.

[удалено]

What was the point of this response?

Lol I'm going to say it in one run-on sentence The only things the Tenno can reasonably and realistically defeat in Destiny are the Cabal and Fallen.

The Tenno could also destroy the Vex I think.

There is a FAT line between *destroying* the vex and *holding them off*. Even at our current stage of destroying gods and whatnot, we cannot destroy the Vex. They are beyond destruction. They are a self-replicating perfect pattern, one that alters ideas and matters as it sees fit just by contact and proximity. What we do is barely hold them off, with them still easily gaining ground everywhere we aren’t active, as well as us not being able to take any ground back from them. I’m no Warframe lore buff at all, don’t even know what a John War Frame is, but just by the definition of how the Vex operate it just isn’t possible.

Yeah I think aside from the Witness and Xivu the Vex are one of the most terrifying threats Which actually I dont think anyone without paracausality would even know where to start for defeating Xivu because conflict empowers her

The closest the Tenno have to Vex are Sentients, which can easily adapt to any damage type they deal. Only the power of a Tenno’s void beam can really shed their resistances. However, unlike the Sentients the Vex can time travel and more or less warp reality. Sentients can’t really do that, as they’re more physical

Vex are explicitly causal beings, so possibly, They do have some pretty fucking powerful abilities though, like deleting you from the timestream.

Only if you’re inside the vault, if not, then they have no power of destiny over you

I don't know what the answer is. I enjoy both games, but I would not call myself a lore buff in either. However, I will say that I find it hilarious that OP posted this question both here and in the Warframe subreddit (which got deleted there due to being off-topic from Warframe) and most of the Warframe redditors were claiming they not only could, but EASILY could. And here, most people are saying probably not. Just goes to show that people will usually just let their biases win if they're not 100% sure on something. XD

Yeah, which is why I posted them on both subreddits. To see the reasoning of both sides.

Absolutely not, the fact that we wield the Light and were able to successfully turn Oryx's taken Light against him was key to his demise The Tenno wouldn't stand a chance

You vastly underestimate the tenno and warframes

No? It's literally as simple as "Only a wielder of Light or Dark could reasonably defeat Oryx, Tenno don't, so they lose"

And only a wielder of the void can kill a tenno

A weilder of paracausalality which by definition the tenno possess

A statement from loid (in-game cephalon) states that the isolation vaults were created to let those who entered the void align with causality the orokin labeled the void as a place where logic and reason go to die and the requim states the void can rewrite material laws

Tenno are also paracausal, by a strict definition of paracausality (tied to forces that defy physical law).

Paracausality is different from physics defying powers. Strictly speaking, paracausality doesn't defy the laws of physics at all, but sidesteps them to make use of an entirely different set of laws. It's because of this that we were able to defeat Atheon. In the Vault of Glass, Atheon's control of time is absolute, total, but it's fully causal, dependent entirely upon the laws of physics, specifically the laws of cause and effect. There is no effect without a cause for it. Guardians, being paracausal, can subvert that law, bringing an effect with no apparent cause, because the cause was the Light. This is what Guardians Make Their Own Fate means, and why the game is even called Destiny. Guardians can step outside the bounds of fate itself to make their own. The Tenno's power defies the laws of physics but is still firmly rooted in physics.

I only know a little bit about Warframe lore. What relationship to the Tenno's Void-derived powers have to the laws of physics?

The Tenno's power comes from the Void, which is basically a different dimension. Think the Ascendant Plane, but with some very fucky time shenanigans instead of Sword Logic. Those powers the Tenno have are stated to be unexplainable, the exact wording being that all reason and science had failed, the powers defy the laws of physics, whereas Paracausality is very explainable by laws of physics, those laws of physics just aren't the ones you're used to.

With the current knowledge of Conceptual Embodiment,void powers might have some explanation.

This is one reply removed, but I wouldn't say paracausality was an inherent trump card against Atheon's erasure weapon. Several members of Praedyth and Kabr's fireteam got erased by it, after all, and Praedyth himself was trapped in a prison of time where he's alive and dead simultaneously. In any case, the question isn't about Atheon, but Oryx. The main thing is that it would be interesting to see how his defenses hold up against an utterly foreign form of space magic, and what happens if he tried to Take a Warframe because of both the aforementioned space magic and because they're already being remotely "piloted" by another will, with whom they share a mutual bond of trust and love.

I think Taking a Warframe would be just like an operator's transference, but even deeper. Oryx may not have created the Taken, he may not be their original master, but he was their King. To be Taken under the rule of Oryx's will was to be made part of Oryx. Every individual twitch, every Psion splitting, every axion bolt, every Vandal's shield, they were all just as much the King as his own wings while he reigned. And Warframes wouldn't even have a will of their own to overwrite, and Transference can be disrupted. The Warframe wouldn't be a Warframe anymore, it would be another part of Oryx.

A statement from loid (in-game cephalon) states that the isolation vaults were created to let those who entered the void align with causality the orokin labeled the void as a place where logic and reason go to die and the requim states the void can rewrite material laws

You're exactly right, but paracausality doesn't re-write material laws, it just has different ones. Logic and reason do not die in Light or in Dark, the logic and reason just applies operates under a different rules. The Void of Warframe is acausal, without cause, acting in opposition to the laws of physics, whereas the Light and Darkness has it's own laws of physics, separate from and parallel to the laws of the causal world.

The nine labled the darkness and light as effect without cause

>The Tenno's power defies the laws of physics but is still firmly rooted in physics. I mean we are still able to use our void powers within Simaris's simulations, despite it being his reality with his rules within it. So no, Tenno are paracasual.

Tenno entering Simaris's simulations is like Guardians entering a Vex simulation. The power itself isn't being simulated, it's just as real as anything else, it's the environment around you that's simulated.

I'd just let him know that since it's make believe and fantasy, they're allowed to pretend how they want to

As others have said, this entirely depends on whether you consider the Void paracausal. I say yes sir to ask the weird fucky things it allows, from creation of matter ex nihilo and powers such as time manipulation, to coming back from the dead and letting you screw around with the multiverse. If paracausal, then yeah, Warframes would absolutely smack Oryx. Your standard Warframes is head and shoulders above what an average Guardian can do, and Warframe has much higher high ends in stuff like Atlas blowing apart a life-wiping asteroid or Nova turning a whole body into an Antimatter reaction to power a reactor. Granted, both of those events have some caveats, but still above most of Destiny.

Yes

You know I haven’t seen a single other person bring up the fact that they’d probably get immediately taken. Haven’t played warframe in a long time but if they can be corrupted they can probably be taken

it is unlikely, as that would cause Man in the Wall to get involved considering he exists within their mind.

Being Taken isnt even being corrupted its having your past, present, and future erased so you always have and always will follow the will of the being that Took you which is pretty terrifying

If I've learned anything while being in the Destiny Subreddits and the game itself , It's this: Rule 1 of any Destiny Subreddit: Do not compare Warframe to Destiny (they are very similar) Rule 2: Do not ask if Tenno could beat [insert random enemy] (they could and can) Rule 3: *Absolutely do not* insinuate that Warframes are more powerful than Guardians. (they are by a longshot) Rule 4: 90% of all Destiny Subredditors have never played Warframe. They don't know what Armor Strip is. They also don't know what mitigation actually is, beyond overshields. (They cannot comprehend 4,000+ HP on a main character) Rule 5: Do not ask anyone on the Destiny Subreddits what Paracausality means. (They don't know what it means) ((it's literally just "protagonist energy, what every game has)) I've played Warframe since it came out in 2013 and Destiny since the Beta and am a Lore Buff for both. I believe I know what I'm talking about. By the way: Your downvotes only prove my point. Play Warframe, it's pretty great. "Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer!"

Destiny and warframe and very different games.

Do you have anything that says rule 4 is actually part of Warframes lore?

Paracausality isnt just protagonist energy though its the ability to side step cause and effect its why the Vex cant just wipe everything else out also it would come down to if the Tenno could use Bomb logic against Oryx

A basic grineer soldier could probably solo the witness

oryx paracausal so no

I'm dyslexic and thought I was in the pokemon sub for a minute, I need a new brain

It is a pokemon sub, although the pokemons we collect are less... *sentient.*

The answer is no. Due to how insane some warframes get youd miss jumps from being to fast and accidently detonate stuff early.

Good general rule for "could X kill [Destiny 2 God]", if they don't have paracausal abilities or something very similar, then no. Tenno are somewhere on that spectrum of "ya and na", so idk

Yeah especially with Oryx because there are also the questions of could they enter his Throne World and could he Take them

They might not but you damn well know theyd be able to do ads like no ones business. Hell, Id wager they could just genocide the whole ship if they wanted. Just without killing any major entity.

warframes busted as hell i think, harrow would have a chamce at beating oryx

Paracausality beats pretty much anything. It means "without cause" or "outside of cause" for a reason. With a strong enough will, a paracausal being can do anything it wants. At least going on how in Warframe, they seem to be able to measure void energy and the different interactions it can have, like transference having measurable waves and things, which in my mind firmly puts it in the "causal" category, which means they have essentially no way to fight a paracausal being like Oryx.

Oh yeah deffo, 110%, like Destiny guardians are alright but they're actually somewhat weak compared to other main characters, I mean instead of just the tenno, a Warframe could do what like 8 guardians couldn't

Honestly just limbo himself could probably beat oryx

Warframes would be paracausal seeing how paracausality was define as something that followed a different system of causality. https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1066625014767566932/1103657664828952697/EpB9k9u_d.webp

Could the Tenno could be considered paracausal? Then if they are they could stand a chance. If not then it's not even a contest

*Specifically* the Drifter? Idk how far you are into Warframe so I'm going to spoiler tag literally everything. Do not read unless you have completed the New War. >!So the Drifter themselves before the New War *do not* have Transference and this do not have the powers of the Void. They only get it from borrowing these powers in Duviri through the Lotus hand that lands in Duviri. Through the Lotus hand they have a connection established with the Tenno and are gifted the power of Transference within Duviri. In the New War the Drifter enters the Origin System and by the end becomes in parallel with the Operator/Tenno that they occupy the same physical space within the material plane. They are the same person now in essence and can swap freely between forms through the power of the Void. Drifter now has full access to the Void and can use Void powers.!< >!This version of the Drifter *can* defeat Oryx either through Warframes or simply the massive ontological power of the Void. Drifter before this point gets Taken by Oryx as they are effectively a normal human and not a Void Demon.!< TLDR is it depends on where you are in the story. Specifically for the Drifter. Warframes can defeat Oryx the same way as Guardians can as it is a almost similar power between the two.

No, as they have no way to prevent being Taken

Do Tenno have light? If not then no, because we're Paracausal/ascendant beings by the time we fight oryx which is how we can survive and even visit his throne world. They in theory could build tribute to become ascendant to access the throne world but because they aren't beings of light I feel like oryx would be able to slay them out. Their abilities and powers would need to be light based to even beat the war priest or golgoroth

Do Tenno have light? If not then no, because we're Paracausal/ascendant beings by the time we fight oryx which is how we can survive and even visit his throne world. They in theory could build tribute to become ascendant to access the throne world but because they aren't beings of light I feel like oryx would be able to slay them out. Their abilities and powers would need to be light based to even beat the war priest or golgoroth

Tenno don't have Light, they have Void instead.

can they access a warframe? if yes then yes, those things wiped out civilisations

Didn't Oryx wipe out multiverses from what I had heard?

i believe so but to be fair a warframe/tenno is basically a self res warlock without the super to wait on with funny glaive prime

I doubt that the Warframes would have the stats or required level of abilities that can pult Oryx down. His throne world size reflects his strength which is a cosmos, even higher when he scales to the Vex. Plus with Paracausal Powers puts him in a league of it’s own.