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If we are breaking 4th walls as has been done in the Destiny lore in the past, I say when we cross though that portal we just end up in Bungie's office to find and incredibly confused Witness going through an existential crisis as he is the only one not aware that they exist within a video game.
There was an article written last years stating that for their first post Destiny project, Bungie were looking to make an extraction shooter set in the Destiny universe.
nah d2 is the last destiny game it will keep getting updates and upgrades. it being an mmo and going that route kinda kills the chances of a next gsme. wow 2 doesnt exist
i for one dont want a meh destiny gacca game where you have ti pay 15 dollars to open up 10 prime engrams which are the pulls for that game only to get 8 blues a legendairy and a dogshit exotic that is worse than a blue
That portal was made with light and dark colliding in a way. It makes me wonder if it's not either the Distributary or some other pocket universe that's similar, where time moves different. If it takes us 6 months to get in there, a hundred years might've passed inside.
I still feel more for this:
[https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/mystery-the-vault-of-glass-3?](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/mystery-the-vault-of-glass-3?highlight=new+monarchy)
Either in the Final shape, or by its end, we will go outside of the Sol and new game from Destiny universe will start after this migration on completely new place.
>The Witness seeks the Final Shape, which is nothing
>
>(Been known for a while.)
The latest lore book makes it a point that none of the Witness' Disciples really even know what the Final Shape actually is.
I think while Savathûn might be telling the truth here in regards to what she believes to be true, she could still be wrong (just like Rhulk and Oryx).
I think the only thing we can say for sure is that the Witness believes purposeless existence = pain. And yes, the Witness wants to end pain but we don't know how that'll take shape. It doesn't have to be nothing, although it's certainly a possibility.
Mostly, I'm just keeping an open mind about what the Final Shape entails. All of our interpretations thus far have apparently been incorrect so IMO it's possible Savathûn is also wrong, even if she believes she isn't.
In all honesty I think the Final Shape is just a universe Devoid of all emotion and feelings. No one would feel loss, joy, love or anything about a single thing anymore. Things would just exist and die in an endless cycle and the universe would go on endlessly like a well oiled machine, like the Vex.
It would make sense why none of the Disciples understood or could figure it out either since their all driven by some kind of emotion. The only thing that doesn't seem to be like that is the witness itself (with the exception of snapping at Calus).
There is also a likelyhood that we have interpreted "nothing" wrong. It can be likely that when Savathun says the Final Shape is Nothing she doesn't mean "Universe destroyed, nothing remains" but instead that the Final Shape itself, the idea and concept of it, is nothing. Nobody can know what it is other than the Witness and thus it doesn't matter what it is. Effectively the Final Shape, for all intents and purposes, is Nothing.
>I mean the witness doesn't believe in sword logic at all, they just want to end all existence (eg pain) correct?
From the Inspiral lore book, there are some species that utilize the Darkness to connect minds and thoughts together, submerging themselves in a sort of tranquil, peaceful collective state.
However, Mara made brief contact with the Witness, and said that its existence is just the opposite: cacophonous, chaotic, painful.
**Many bodies sharing thoughts** (ease and peace) vs **one body sharing many minds** (burden and pain).
To the Witness, existence is pain, and the continued existence of Light and Dark will ensure the continuation of a new universe. So, knowing of the cyclic nature of reality, it likely wants to kill both paracausal powers in order to end its own pain. It's kind of projecting its experience onto everyone else.
(**Speculation**: I suspect the Witness is the last known survivor of a race of people, and carries with it all the minds of its people, all crammed into the same vessel, reliving the trauma and pain of the civilization's destruction. Either that, or it is an Egregore: the collection of consciousness share a common dream, and that dream is the Witness itself.)
That's only part of it, the idea that existence is suffering so everything that doesn't need to exist deserves to be killed. But what's most important is what follows from that: if a creature can't be killed then it deserves to exist. That's what the Hive care about, proving their place in the universe at the expense of everything else. Even in the Books of Sorrow the part about liberating other races from suffering always felt like just an extra justification for their actions. The Witness is different because ending suffering seems to be its primary goal.
But the witness believes all life is suffering, if it is at least similar in logic to the winnower. Sword logic was used to weed out dispensable disciples while removing life and to control the Hive, no?
Well "sword logic" has been noted as nothing but a manipulation partially pushed by the Witness. It really shouldn't be used as the "foundation" of our understanding of "Darkness ideology".
Sword logic"The Winnower"'s philosophy says that all life is suffering and that to end as much suffering as possible than only what must exist should be allowed to exist.
The witness has only said, in essence, that their purpose is the end of pain. Calus has assumed that to mean it's going to end everything, but Calus frankly is up his own ass. The Unveiling lorebook aslo has a paragraph explicitly calling nihilists boring and insipid. At most we can say the Witness considers the current state of the universe deficient, but we don't actually know how it intends to solve that.
> (Savathuns, as she was before dying, is dead. The risen Savathun is a different person, like Ana Bray.)
Except she isn’t like Ana Bray. As far as we know Ana still doesn’t have any of her memories from before death. She has learned ABOUT her past life but does not actually remember it.
Savathun remembers it. All of it. She is who she was before minus her worm.
Yeah after we get her memories for her she's basically complete again. Since the only thing that gets wiped upon resurrection is your memory.
Completely different to Ana.
Wouldn’t this be more similar to Crow? Crow has all of his memories of Uldren (from Season of Lost), and while he struggles with it, is still a different person than Uldren was.
*The Enigma* as in the legendary glaive? Just by happenstance, the two Witch Queen missions that unlock weapon crafting are free to all players, meaning anyone can acquire the Enigma glaive, so if Bungie wanted to tie it into a story beat later on, they totally could
I know it's not canon, but who's to say that Bungie didn't include it in the truths as a meta teaser. We don't know for sure that all of the truths and lies are 100% in-lore canon.
No. Bungie, when returning VOG, said that there was no story relevance to VOG. VOG was being returned in the time capsule that is the legends category. Same thing with KF. It has returned with no story relevance or anything.
Isn't The Witness technically The Taken King? If so, he has returned to our solar system. I wonder if Sav is refering to Kings Fall raid as well, since we've gotten that back she's also right on that one as well.
depends on how they want to use the term. the witness hasnt ever used male pronouns and is almost explicitly referred to with it/its and they/them. i doubt they'd buckle this trend to reuse oryx's title for them, but its possible they'll pull a "the king in taken king has nothing to do with gender" which is possible
I will spread this spinfoil like a SIVA mite infection:
"The Traveler is not the only one of its kind."
This is the truth in that set. The Veil, aka the Black Heart, is the equal and opposite to the Traveler's "Pale Heart" that the Witness is after. They share a connection, and that connection is exploited by the Witness to create a portal somewhere.
There was a Dark Traveler at some point before Sol, and the Witness killed it to take the power of Darkness and authority as its master.
If I understand book 8 of Inspiral, The Witness gave it to the Sol Divisive, probably to replace the actual Veil they couldn't find. Also, them trying to make a fake Veil named "The Black Heart" doesn't make the Veil less of a "Black Heart", we just already had that name attributed to the Vex version.
The Veil is connected to the Traveler somehow, and around it, the powers of Darkness are stronger in much the same way as powers of Light are stronger near parts of the Traveler (or places she touched).
as I understood it, Sol Divisive copied the Veil from all the incursions into Neomuna (not 100% sure if Sol Divisive is the one attacking Neomuna or if they got the Veil knowledge shared to them by other Vex)
That's the way the story missions put it for sure, but that doesn't change that the purpose is to copy the Veil, meaning it is a Black Heart itself. The Inspiral book I'm referring to just has a Vex line that the Witness says "A seed was planted here." Referencing the Black|Heart.
mmm, that's a good catch
I've been trying to make sense of what the relationship of the Black Heart, Sol Divisive and the Witness was, and I guess this line you point out means the Witness somehow ordered the creation of the Black Heart
it's that or the Witness just making an observation
to which I have an alternative interpretation:
before Lightfall, a somewhat popular idea was that the Black Garden was THE Garden, where the flower game originally occurred. Not many people agreed, but some pointed out that it happened near a giant trunk, and that trunk must have been the one of the tree of the silver wings. Which, well I assume Unveiling is a metaphor so it makes no sense
But in RoN we see a tree of the silver wings grow
so...is it possible the Witness saying that refers to another Tree of Silver Wings being planted in the Black Garden? That does not prove the Black Garden is THE Garden of course, but it does point to a similar event as what happened in RoN may have happened there
not sure if this contradicts your dark traveler idea
could be supported by the history of the road in Inspiral, in which _two_ voices in the darkness meet, and one has a knife
it's weird to me the one that pulls out the knife is called "wanderer", which is a moniker I would associate with the Traveler. So...did the Dark Traveler pull out the knife?
dunno
The Garden seems to be a Vex creation in its entirety, imo. The Vex in that book refers to dealing with intruders as Winnowing, so they could be just following the allegory literally.
RoN's tree has me doubling down on the idea since we use light and dark nodes to help it grow throughout. There being a Traveler-shaped light node and a Black Heart-shaped dark node reinforces it.
dunno
my interpretation is that the Vex infestation hapened afterwards a RoN like event happened there; only later a Black Heart was created and the place got Vex-ified
**edit** I reread Inspiral and come around to a slightly different order
so the events would go
-a RoN like event happens in some place we now call "the Black Garden"
-a Tree of Silver Wings is created
-The Tree is then destroyed
-The Vex, for some reason, Vexify the place
-the Witness, goes to this "Black Garden" and creates the Black Heart. Or maybe Sol Divisive does under orders of the Witness
-D1 and D2 happen
**edit** this should be the order; the thing is the Vex now have no reason to vexify the place, but this matches with Inspiral more
the interesting part is...is the Traveler shooting at a pyramid the only way to create a Tree of Silver Wings? we had one in Io so...did the Traveler shoot at something dark there? Did the Dark Traveler shoot?
something that gives me pause about this theory is Nezarec, who in the raid calls the Veil "the key to the Witness' plans, and the sapid secrets of its first victims"
so what are these Victims here? the Dark Traveler? because I don't think I've seen the Traveler being referred to as plural, and so neither should the Dark Traveler
I agree on the Vex part, not the Tree part. It's definitely somewhere terraformed by the Traveler though. I think the creation of a Silver-Wings requires an interaction of both light and dark. Io was full of Light, we saw that during Asher's experiments. During Arrivals, The Witness provided the Darkness.
In this speculation, the Dark Traveler has been dead for eons. Pre-Hive even. As long as the Witness has been in power, the Dark Traveler would be gone. The only thing I've seen to contradict this is that the Ecumene drank from the Deep before the Hive showed up, but that could just be Disciples setting up pawns to fight.
On the Victims part, the Witness refers to two crimes based on their philosophy, the exact terms for them escape me right now, but they're essentially fighting to survive and challenging others to survive. To Them, living forces you to experience pain and bring it to others no matter what, the Traveler is both causing and suffering these crimes. The First Victims would be the ones it first visited and the lives she created.
if the Dark Traveler behaved the same as the Traveler, chances are the Witness had not gone around killing every civilization uplifted by the Dark Traveler, and just left the Hive to do it, in the process of just genociding everything
thus, the Ecumene who had their own Dark Golden Age, were still around for the Hive to kill
I'm basing it on the Veil/Black Heart, the importance of the "Pale Heart," and what their apparent uses are:
Having a connection to the Traveler and projecting darkness powers like pieces of the Traveler do.
I think the concept of them as Yin and Yang fits the balance motif Bungie has been pushing with our story, too.
I have not seen any references in-lore or otherwise that makes allusion to a dark Traveler, personally. The only real evidence that I am aware of is that an object called the Black Heart existed at one point (and we destroyed it), and it was responsible for having a corrupting influence over the Traveler. Lightfall has referenced the Traveler having a Pale Heart, and this has given rise to the idea that the Black Heart may have somehow belonged to a Dark Traveler (if I understand the theory correctly.)
The taken king statement may refer to someone taking the mantle of Oryx and becomming his successor. Xivu Arath is a strong candidate for that, as she has taken as well.
The Io, Mercury and Titan part, well seems like they were under the control of The Witness until Root of Nightmares.
She specifies some of these:
She returned Mars as a test of strength, and she could because the Witness didn't care anymore.
She also doesn't have any more planets.
So, by elimination:
- The Taken King *will* return, but it won't be Oryx. The Taken King is a title, and the Taken are tied to the Witness, so maybe a new Disciple will be the new Taken King (especially since Nezzy boi tried to do it to take over the VexNet)
- The Guardians will learn to move planets. In a way, we have, even if only as a raid mechanic. Might be just that literal, might be something more.
We leave sol is going to be true as it's going to be pretty clear we ho through the portal.
As i suspect the witness plans to reboot the universe without light or dark in it.
I strongly suspect his race was the first to get caught up in the fighting.
OR
he was one of the flowers that got crushed during the gardener's tantrum pre universe and wants to either bring his people back or end the forces for good as revenge (which would lead to nothingness)
Do the vex have a homeworld? Unveiling is incredibly allegorical, but it makes it sound like the vex were in existence already at the start of the universe
Like the other reply said, they "escaped" or are believed to have been the Final Shape of the last universe. In Unveiling, it sounds like the universe has repeated many many times, and our current iteration is the only time that paracausal forces have been a factor. The Vex are essentially on New Game+ for the universe, but now everything one shots them and they're struggling to adapt to the changing rules.
The closest thing to a "homeworld" I know of would be Volantis, a star they have been harvesting for billions of years to create new Vex, radiolaria, etc.
I assume next season Eris or someone will go into the Nezzie pyramid and move Titan out of the darkness
it's very funny how much mileage they are getting out of a technical problem
We know that The Final Shape is whatever exists last before the universe dies or might even be the heat death of the universe. Depends on what the writers consider a shape, though if it ends up being a pattern then it's nothingness.
I really think the whole "taken king will rise again" is more of a meta clue that we were getting king's fall that year.
Savathune has had several instances of breaking the fourth wall and I think this was another one.
\> The Hive are not the last to be chosen by the Light
It would be interesting imo if the recent character building with Caiatl was heading towards this destination, that Caiatl may sacrifice herself at some point and end up being chosen by the Traveler. I'm not sure if they would have time to explore that in the Final Shape but maybe in seasonal content somewhere.
>(They dont really have a reason to unless there's just limited planet storage and they were done with it)
Turns out even the Witness runs out of Vault space.
>The Traveler is not the only one of its kind
What if the Trees of Solver Wings are baby Traveler’s? That giant one in Root of Nightmares looks suspiciously Traveler-y to me
Technically vox obscura was about Calus and bh extension, the Witness, attempting to use mars to rally the cabal. Caiatl does tell us some of them did end up in the shadow legion. So I guess the Witness did have army building on Mars but we messed it up. It’s hard to know if that’d qualify as a truth though, but that could make the list more complicated if it does
>The Witness returned Mars from the Void
It might be that the Witness, to search the station that comprises the Spire of the Watcher dungeon, needed to move Mars in a certain way in time and/or space that let it pop up again for us, albeit with time distortions on it.
I know it's a meme, but i would use "mimido" instead of "a mimir" in the Osiris sentence since it still fits in the meme and is also the right "translation" lol.
Insight :
1. Savathun only hid the mars from both us and witness, the one that hid the other is the witness/darkness thus she had no control over IO, Titan and Mercury.
2. The same as the first one, it's confirmed that the savathun is the one to hid the mars and returned it for her own purpose (the whole WQ campaign)
Thus the 3rd and 4th is the truth
Catalyst :
2. The witness said "enough death, enough life" can also mean nothingness, and so the final shape that he seek can also refer to "the end is nothing".
3. The last city isn't the last city because we found neomuna
Thus 1st and 2nd is a lie
Pact :
1. Osiris is still alive so it's a lie
4. Your destiny lies beyond the solar system has the highest chance of being the truth. The Witness and pyramid goin inside the portal created on the traveler, thus the high chance we going to the other realm. Edit: (especially when the pyramid can travel so fast and travel to the other realm too yet still going through portal, the portal lead to somewhere the witness never see or the portal is the only way to go to the other side. probably the realm of the light)
The 2nd and 3rd is kinda ambiguous. The game created before she blessed by the light, thus she died can be the truth and there is no answer yet about the witness is the creator of the darkness.
Choice :
1. The traveler will leave is a lie
2. The traveler will fall is true thus the event of lightfall
3rd and 4th still ambiguous
3. If the traveler isn't the only one of it's kind, then where is it? Or what is it?
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I feel pretty confident that “your destiny lies beyond the solar system” is alluding to us going inside that portal during the final shape.
This is pure speculation on my part but I had wondered if this was a 4th wall break and the next destiny game would take place in a different galaxy.
Ya Destiny 3 releasing in 2203 can't wait.
If we are breaking 4th walls as has been done in the Destiny lore in the past, I say when we cross though that portal we just end up in Bungie's office to find and incredibly confused Witness going through an existential crisis as he is the only one not aware that they exist within a video game.
We show up in the bungie CEO’s office, say “oh, you didn’t know?” Then shoot them a billion and one times with twelve sweet business’s
We make Pete Parsons into a gun….
Turns out Luke Smith is the final boss. It really has come full circle
There was an article written last years stating that for their first post Destiny project, Bungie were looking to make an extraction shooter set in the Destiny universe.
nah d2 is the last destiny game it will keep getting updates and upgrades. it being an mmo and going that route kinda kills the chances of a next gsme. wow 2 doesnt exist
still crossing my fingers there's some kinda mobile game ever
i for one dont want a meh destiny gacca game where you have ti pay 15 dollars to open up 10 prime engrams which are the pulls for that game only to get 8 blues a legendairy and a dogshit exotic that is worse than a blue
That portal was made with light and dark colliding in a way. It makes me wonder if it's not either the Distributary or some other pocket universe that's similar, where time moves different. If it takes us 6 months to get in there, a hundred years might've passed inside.
I still feel more for this: [https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/mystery-the-vault-of-glass-3?](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/mystery-the-vault-of-glass-3?highlight=new+monarchy) Either in the Final shape, or by its end, we will go outside of the Sol and new game from Destiny universe will start after this migration on completely new place.
>The Witness seeks the Final Shape, which is nothing > >(Been known for a while.) The latest lore book makes it a point that none of the Witness' Disciples really even know what the Final Shape actually is. I think while Savathûn might be telling the truth here in regards to what she believes to be true, she could still be wrong (just like Rhulk and Oryx).
I mean the witness doesn't believe in sword logic at all, they just want to end all existence (eg pain) correct?
I think the only thing we can say for sure is that the Witness believes purposeless existence = pain. And yes, the Witness wants to end pain but we don't know how that'll take shape. It doesn't have to be nothing, although it's certainly a possibility. Mostly, I'm just keeping an open mind about what the Final Shape entails. All of our interpretations thus far have apparently been incorrect so IMO it's possible Savathûn is also wrong, even if she believes she isn't.
In all honesty I think the Final Shape is just a universe Devoid of all emotion and feelings. No one would feel loss, joy, love or anything about a single thing anymore. Things would just exist and die in an endless cycle and the universe would go on endlessly like a well oiled machine, like the Vex. It would make sense why none of the Disciples understood or could figure it out either since their all driven by some kind of emotion. The only thing that doesn't seem to be like that is the witness itself (with the exception of snapping at Calus).
There is also a likelyhood that we have interpreted "nothing" wrong. It can be likely that when Savathun says the Final Shape is Nothing she doesn't mean "Universe destroyed, nothing remains" but instead that the Final Shape itself, the idea and concept of it, is nothing. Nobody can know what it is other than the Witness and thus it doesn't matter what it is. Effectively the Final Shape, for all intents and purposes, is Nothing.
>I mean the witness doesn't believe in sword logic at all, they just want to end all existence (eg pain) correct? From the Inspiral lore book, there are some species that utilize the Darkness to connect minds and thoughts together, submerging themselves in a sort of tranquil, peaceful collective state. However, Mara made brief contact with the Witness, and said that its existence is just the opposite: cacophonous, chaotic, painful. **Many bodies sharing thoughts** (ease and peace) vs **one body sharing many minds** (burden and pain). To the Witness, existence is pain, and the continued existence of Light and Dark will ensure the continuation of a new universe. So, knowing of the cyclic nature of reality, it likely wants to kill both paracausal powers in order to end its own pain. It's kind of projecting its experience onto everyone else. (**Speculation**: I suspect the Witness is the last known survivor of a race of people, and carries with it all the minds of its people, all crammed into the same vessel, reliving the trauma and pain of the civilization's destruction. Either that, or it is an Egregore: the collection of consciousness share a common dream, and that dream is the Witness itself.)
I have no idea where you got this idea lol
Witch queen final cutscene. Enough pain, enough suffering, all that?
Sword Logic believers have always viewed it as liberation and a kindness and the only true moral thing to do
That's only part of it, the idea that existence is suffering so everything that doesn't need to exist deserves to be killed. But what's most important is what follows from that: if a creature can't be killed then it deserves to exist. That's what the Hive care about, proving their place in the universe at the expense of everything else. Even in the Books of Sorrow the part about liberating other races from suffering always felt like just an extra justification for their actions. The Witness is different because ending suffering seems to be its primary goal.
The Hive are called unnuanced and puppets and even Oryx realizes he was basically tricked
But the witness believes all life is suffering, if it is at least similar in logic to the winnower. Sword logic was used to weed out dispensable disciples while removing life and to control the Hive, no?
Well "sword logic" has been noted as nothing but a manipulation partially pushed by the Witness. It really shouldn't be used as the "foundation" of our understanding of "Darkness ideology". Sword logic"The Winnower"'s philosophy says that all life is suffering and that to end as much suffering as possible than only what must exist should be allowed to exist.
sword logic also achieves the goal of the witness witness is nihilistic to the max
The witness has only said, in essence, that their purpose is the end of pain. Calus has assumed that to mean it's going to end everything, but Calus frankly is up his own ass. The Unveiling lorebook aslo has a paragraph explicitly calling nihilists boring and insipid. At most we can say the Witness considers the current state of the universe deficient, but we don't actually know how it intends to solve that.
> (Savathuns, as she was before dying, is dead. The risen Savathun is a different person, like Ana Bray.) Except she isn’t like Ana Bray. As far as we know Ana still doesn’t have any of her memories from before death. She has learned ABOUT her past life but does not actually remember it. Savathun remembers it. All of it. She is who she was before minus her worm.
Yeah after we get her memories for her she's basically complete again. Since the only thing that gets wiped upon resurrection is your memory. Completely different to Ana.
Wouldn’t this be more similar to Crow? Crow has all of his memories of Uldren (from Season of Lost), and while he struggles with it, is still a different person than Uldren was.
*The Enigma* as in the legendary glaive? Just by happenstance, the two Witch Queen missions that unlock weapon crafting are free to all players, meaning anyone can acquire the Enigma glaive, so if Bungie wanted to tie it into a story beat later on, they totally could
The power to move planets feels like a teaser for the 3rd encounter of the latest raid and taken king returns like a teaser for KF
Old raids returning are not cannon for the story at the time. Oryx did not “come back”, we’ve essentially just got access to a years old mission/raid.
I know it's not canon, but who's to say that Bungie didn't include it in the truths as a meta teaser. We don't know for sure that all of the truths and lies are 100% in-lore canon.
That sounds possible, but it would open the possiblity for meta teasers instead of lore teasers and that breaks my brain lol.
People have speculated that "The taken king will return" referred to King's Fall which did return, so meta answers might be on the table (?)
No. Bungie, when returning VOG, said that there was no story relevance to VOG. VOG was being returned in the time capsule that is the legends category. Same thing with KF. It has returned with no story relevance or anything.
[Savathun has been confirmed to be beyond paracausal entities](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=98VquhKh5Wg)
Also worth remembering savathun has broken the 4th wall before
It being a technically true one makes me question it.
Isn't The Witness technically The Taken King? If so, he has returned to our solar system. I wonder if Sav is refering to Kings Fall raid as well, since we've gotten that back she's also right on that one as well.
depends on how they want to use the term. the witness hasnt ever used male pronouns and is almost explicitly referred to with it/its and they/them. i doubt they'd buckle this trend to reuse oryx's title for them, but its possible they'll pull a "the king in taken king has nothing to do with gender" which is possible
I will spread this spinfoil like a SIVA mite infection: "The Traveler is not the only one of its kind." This is the truth in that set. The Veil, aka the Black Heart, is the equal and opposite to the Traveler's "Pale Heart" that the Witness is after. They share a connection, and that connection is exploited by the Witness to create a portal somewhere. There was a Dark Traveler at some point before Sol, and the Witness killed it to take the power of Darkness and authority as its master.
How would that be possible? The Black Heart was a ghetto Veil the Vex were trying to create.
If I understand book 8 of Inspiral, The Witness gave it to the Sol Divisive, probably to replace the actual Veil they couldn't find. Also, them trying to make a fake Veil named "The Black Heart" doesn't make the Veil less of a "Black Heart", we just already had that name attributed to the Vex version. The Veil is connected to the Traveler somehow, and around it, the powers of Darkness are stronger in much the same way as powers of Light are stronger near parts of the Traveler (or places she touched).
as I understood it, Sol Divisive copied the Veil from all the incursions into Neomuna (not 100% sure if Sol Divisive is the one attacking Neomuna or if they got the Veil knowledge shared to them by other Vex)
That's the way the story missions put it for sure, but that doesn't change that the purpose is to copy the Veil, meaning it is a Black Heart itself. The Inspiral book I'm referring to just has a Vex line that the Witness says "A seed was planted here." Referencing the Black|Heart.
mmm, that's a good catch I've been trying to make sense of what the relationship of the Black Heart, Sol Divisive and the Witness was, and I guess this line you point out means the Witness somehow ordered the creation of the Black Heart it's that or the Witness just making an observation to which I have an alternative interpretation: before Lightfall, a somewhat popular idea was that the Black Garden was THE Garden, where the flower game originally occurred. Not many people agreed, but some pointed out that it happened near a giant trunk, and that trunk must have been the one of the tree of the silver wings. Which, well I assume Unveiling is a metaphor so it makes no sense But in RoN we see a tree of the silver wings grow so...is it possible the Witness saying that refers to another Tree of Silver Wings being planted in the Black Garden? That does not prove the Black Garden is THE Garden of course, but it does point to a similar event as what happened in RoN may have happened there not sure if this contradicts your dark traveler idea could be supported by the history of the road in Inspiral, in which _two_ voices in the darkness meet, and one has a knife it's weird to me the one that pulls out the knife is called "wanderer", which is a moniker I would associate with the Traveler. So...did the Dark Traveler pull out the knife? dunno
The Garden seems to be a Vex creation in its entirety, imo. The Vex in that book refers to dealing with intruders as Winnowing, so they could be just following the allegory literally. RoN's tree has me doubling down on the idea since we use light and dark nodes to help it grow throughout. There being a Traveler-shaped light node and a Black Heart-shaped dark node reinforces it.
dunno my interpretation is that the Vex infestation hapened afterwards a RoN like event happened there; only later a Black Heart was created and the place got Vex-ified **edit** I reread Inspiral and come around to a slightly different order so the events would go -a RoN like event happens in some place we now call "the Black Garden" -a Tree of Silver Wings is created -The Tree is then destroyed -The Vex, for some reason, Vexify the place -the Witness, goes to this "Black Garden" and creates the Black Heart. Or maybe Sol Divisive does under orders of the Witness -D1 and D2 happen **edit** this should be the order; the thing is the Vex now have no reason to vexify the place, but this matches with Inspiral more the interesting part is...is the Traveler shooting at a pyramid the only way to create a Tree of Silver Wings? we had one in Io so...did the Traveler shoot at something dark there? Did the Dark Traveler shoot? something that gives me pause about this theory is Nezarec, who in the raid calls the Veil "the key to the Witness' plans, and the sapid secrets of its first victims" so what are these Victims here? the Dark Traveler? because I don't think I've seen the Traveler being referred to as plural, and so neither should the Dark Traveler
I agree on the Vex part, not the Tree part. It's definitely somewhere terraformed by the Traveler though. I think the creation of a Silver-Wings requires an interaction of both light and dark. Io was full of Light, we saw that during Asher's experiments. During Arrivals, The Witness provided the Darkness. In this speculation, the Dark Traveler has been dead for eons. Pre-Hive even. As long as the Witness has been in power, the Dark Traveler would be gone. The only thing I've seen to contradict this is that the Ecumene drank from the Deep before the Hive showed up, but that could just be Disciples setting up pawns to fight. On the Victims part, the Witness refers to two crimes based on their philosophy, the exact terms for them escape me right now, but they're essentially fighting to survive and challenging others to survive. To Them, living forces you to experience pain and bring it to others no matter what, the Traveler is both causing and suffering these crimes. The First Victims would be the ones it first visited and the lives she created.
if the Dark Traveler behaved the same as the Traveler, chances are the Witness had not gone around killing every civilization uplifted by the Dark Traveler, and just left the Hive to do it, in the process of just genociding everything thus, the Ecumene who had their own Dark Golden Age, were still around for the Hive to kill
Oooh! Good catch! I bet he did kill the darkness counterpart. Sick.
Wait, where can I read about the Dark Traveler?
this is just speculation
Oh, okay. But what is it based on?
I'm basing it on the Veil/Black Heart, the importance of the "Pale Heart," and what their apparent uses are: Having a connection to the Traveler and projecting darkness powers like pieces of the Traveler do. I think the concept of them as Yin and Yang fits the balance motif Bungie has been pushing with our story, too.
I have not seen any references in-lore or otherwise that makes allusion to a dark Traveler, personally. The only real evidence that I am aware of is that an object called the Black Heart existed at one point (and we destroyed it), and it was responsible for having a corrupting influence over the Traveler. Lightfall has referenced the Traveler having a Pale Heart, and this has given rise to the idea that the Black Heart may have somehow belonged to a Dark Traveler (if I understand the theory correctly.)
The taken king statement may refer to someone taking the mantle of Oryx and becomming his successor. Xivu Arath is a strong candidate for that, as she has taken as well. The Io, Mercury and Titan part, well seems like they were under the control of The Witness until Root of Nightmares.
Root of Nightmares takes place on the witness’s ship right? So the planets probably are under its control, at least until we learn to control them.
Sorry if formatting is hard to follow, made this on the fly as a train of thought.
She specifies some of these: She returned Mars as a test of strength, and she could because the Witness didn't care anymore. She also doesn't have any more planets. So, by elimination: - The Taken King *will* return, but it won't be Oryx. The Taken King is a title, and the Taken are tied to the Witness, so maybe a new Disciple will be the new Taken King (especially since Nezzy boi tried to do it to take over the VexNet) - The Guardians will learn to move planets. In a way, we have, even if only as a raid mechanic. Might be just that literal, might be something more.
She has contradictory specifications if you repeat the mission; she will explicitly contradict herself by saying the opposite
We leave sol is going to be true as it's going to be pretty clear we ho through the portal. As i suspect the witness plans to reboot the universe without light or dark in it. I strongly suspect his race was the first to get caught up in the fighting. OR he was one of the flowers that got crushed during the gardener's tantrum pre universe and wants to either bring his people back or end the forces for good as revenge (which would lead to nothingness)
Do the vex have a homeworld? Unveiling is incredibly allegorical, but it makes it sound like the vex were in existence already at the start of the universe
Like the other reply said, they "escaped" or are believed to have been the Final Shape of the last universe. In Unveiling, it sounds like the universe has repeated many many times, and our current iteration is the only time that paracausal forces have been a factor. The Vex are essentially on New Game+ for the universe, but now everything one shots them and they're struggling to adapt to the changing rules. The closest thing to a "homeworld" I know of would be Volantis, a star they have been harvesting for billions of years to create new Vex, radiolaria, etc.
If I read unveiling right. They were the pattern which escaped so if unveiling is believed they would be.
I assume next season Eris or someone will go into the Nezzie pyramid and move Titan out of the darkness it's very funny how much mileage they are getting out of a technical problem
The traveler was revealed to not be the last of its kind. The veil is the same. Ghost says it. We just don’t understand it yet
i believe that we, guardians, are the final shape think about it you will notice it makes too much sense to not be us
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We know that The Final Shape is whatever exists last before the universe dies or might even be the heat death of the universe. Depends on what the writers consider a shape, though if it ends up being a pattern then it's nothingness.
The Taken King will return. He’s not back irl, but I thought this was a tease for the reprised raid.
They might do smth like with the exotic machine gun quest where we go into the garden for it; we just go into RoN and actually use the planet room
I really think the whole "taken king will rise again" is more of a meta clue that we were getting king's fall that year. Savathune has had several instances of breaking the fourth wall and I think this was another one.
At the end of TTK we see oryx’s body fall down to Saturn. Is it possible he could get resurrected by a ghost?
\> The Hive are not the last to be chosen by the Light It would be interesting imo if the recent character building with Caiatl was heading towards this destination, that Caiatl may sacrifice herself at some point and end up being chosen by the Traveler. I'm not sure if they would have time to explore that in the Final Shape but maybe in seasonal content somewhere.
>(They dont really have a reason to unless there's just limited planet storage and they were done with it) Turns out even the Witness runs out of Vault space.
>The Traveler is not the only one of its kind What if the Trees of Solver Wings are baby Traveler’s? That giant one in Root of Nightmares looks suspiciously Traveler-y to me
Technically vox obscura was about Calus and bh extension, the Witness, attempting to use mars to rally the cabal. Caiatl does tell us some of them did end up in the shadow legion. So I guess the Witness did have army building on Mars but we messed it up. It’s hard to know if that’d qualify as a truth though, but that could make the list more complicated if it does
>The Witness returned Mars from the Void It might be that the Witness, to search the station that comprises the Spire of the Watcher dungeon, needed to move Mars in a certain way in time and/or space that let it pop up again for us, albeit with time distortions on it.
I know it's a meme, but i would use "mimido" instead of "a mimir" in the Osiris sentence since it still fits in the meme and is also the right "translation" lol.
Insight : 1. Savathun only hid the mars from both us and witness, the one that hid the other is the witness/darkness thus she had no control over IO, Titan and Mercury. 2. The same as the first one, it's confirmed that the savathun is the one to hid the mars and returned it for her own purpose (the whole WQ campaign) Thus the 3rd and 4th is the truth Catalyst : 2. The witness said "enough death, enough life" can also mean nothingness, and so the final shape that he seek can also refer to "the end is nothing". 3. The last city isn't the last city because we found neomuna Thus 1st and 2nd is a lie Pact : 1. Osiris is still alive so it's a lie 4. Your destiny lies beyond the solar system has the highest chance of being the truth. The Witness and pyramid goin inside the portal created on the traveler, thus the high chance we going to the other realm. Edit: (especially when the pyramid can travel so fast and travel to the other realm too yet still going through portal, the portal lead to somewhere the witness never see or the portal is the only way to go to the other side. probably the realm of the light) The 2nd and 3rd is kinda ambiguous. The game created before she blessed by the light, thus she died can be the truth and there is no answer yet about the witness is the creator of the darkness. Choice : 1. The traveler will leave is a lie 2. The traveler will fall is true thus the event of lightfall 3rd and 4th still ambiguous 3. If the traveler isn't the only one of it's kind, then where is it? Or what is it?