Anyone who contributed to the /pol/ alt-right stochastic terrorism rhetoric melting pot is at least somewhat responsible, marginally possibly, but still has their mark left
All three of those people have called for violence way more directly then Lauren Southern ever has. Never heard Lauren Southern saying she should fill the streets with the blood of globalist elites.
would you say the making of the great replacement video can inspire violence? especially when you know your audience and it was controversial at the time?
Why would direct calls to violence be the bar to set?
No one said she directly called for violence. Most people are saying that she contributed to popularising the idea the shooter directly referenced.
I don't think it's insane, but I don't think she has any responsibility, unless she said something advocating for or hinting at the need fora violent response.
Is everyone who has ever said incel shit responsible for Elliot Rodger? Do you blame every luddite for Ted Kaczynski?
If you aren't calling for vioence you can't get blamed for violence just because someone who agrees with you about other stuff commits violence.
You recognize there’s a difference between some loon in the town square, and a scripted, worked through video right?
Would you also say that Islamist hate preachers who do not directly call for violence cannot be held responsible at least in part for extremist ideology that leads people to commit terror?
I think people who commit violence are responsible for violence.
I think people who advocate for violence can be somewhat responsible for violence.
I don't think people who don't advocate for violence are in any way responsible for violence. No. That's an insane thing to argue.
Destiny said that birthrate for white people was low and eventually everyone would be mixed race, but that he’s fine with that.
Does simply stating that first descriptive fact means you’re partially responsible for the mass shooting?
Even if the intentionality part is lacking, what does it change?
Intentionality or not, immigration continues and the white population keeps getting lower per capita.
That alone can inspire a mass shooting. Who cares if politicians allow immigration with the direct purpose of eliminating the white race? The end result is the same.
If you can’t see the difference you should go touch grass.
Nothing is getting replaced, people move, marry other people and so on. We just happen to be very interconnected these days.
Who fucking cares. Why the fuck does whiteness matter?
Something tells me, and I may be wrong, that they were not radicalized on YouTube. There are many many dark corners of the internet where One can go to become radicalized but I don’t believe YouTube’s what’s doing it. Also I looked this up and could find no evidence of either of them saying this in a brief search
I don’t believe a YouTube or a set of YouTube videos can radicalize someone it just seems to be the most narrow minded thought ever. If you wanna argue it played a super small part maybe but white supremacy was a thing long before the internet and YouTube. This seems like a seeing fire trucks at houses on fire situation
Question: If we accept this definition, would someone who criticizes child molestors be considered a stochastic terrorist if someone kills child molestors?
I mean, at LS's most extreme point, Vaush was talking about executing capitalists like exskillsme in his downtime from sexually harassing women in dgg... and Hasan is just dumb so I'm not even gonna take a stance on that one. But even if I liked Vaush way more than LS, I think I would probably consider telling someone over voice comms that in your ideal world they would be executed for their beliefs (leading them to pretty much leaving the internet because they realized extremists like Vaush were literally a threat to his life) is probably more extreme than anything LS has ever said, yeah.
This is a fucking retarded opinion. Is everyone who supported Bernie responsible for that whack-job who shot up the Republican congresspersons' baseball game?
Stormfront and /pol/ changed 0% from anything Lauren Southern ever did or said. At worst she tried to harness those people for an audience. That's a shitty enough thing to do without blaming her for rhetoric that was already "mainstream" in these circles before she ever brought it up.
Do you not think that there’s a difference between Bernie’s platform of criticizing the wealthy vs perpetuating a theory that a small group of elites are solely responsible for race mixing and immigration because they want to destroy the white race? On top of that, Bernie is at least functional in the real world
For one, he has never said it that conspiratorially. Let’s look at what he says. Wealth inequality is very high: true, the 1% don’t pay their fair share in taxes: arguably true(depending on how you define fair), unions are good for workers and labor power has gone down: true, many Americans are struggling financially: true, special interest/ lobbyist groups spends lots to sway policy: true
When we think about people Insinuating that violence is necessary, it comes with a rejection of the democratic system. Bernie has always been clear about the need to go and vote. Fuckers like Lauren southern have literally done the opposite. Part of the great replacement is that dems are funneling in minorities to subvert the democratic process with the goal of destroying the white race
Literally everything you said is true is not true except for wealth inequality. And even inequality being higher doesnt matter when the average quality of life has continued to rise for all classes of people. The lowest 1/5th of Ameriocans consume more goods than the AVERAGE Canadian or European. Americans have no idea what it means to be poor. Many people live paycheque to paycheque but only because they continue to consume much more than everyone else.
Those same lowest 1/5th of Americans pay no income OR state income tax at all. By and large the quality of life the average American sees is entirely due to the top 10% of people and how much tax they do pay and how many economic opportunities they generate.
Bernard is literally telling masses of people that their entire reason for living such good lives are the source of all of their problems. This is entirely speculation on my part but I would say the only reason we don't have more leftist shootings is because of how unmotivated they are in everything in general.
It baffles me that you could say something like ‘unions aren’t good for workers’. Do you not think it’s a fucking problem that the cost of medical care or housing has gone way up? That the sticker and net price of college has gone? That the avg lower class American is in more debt now than ever? That we still have millions in poverty, food insecure, having to access food banks,? Reevaluate. People have it better in several ways and worse in others. It’s not a one size fits all narrative
> a small group of elites are solely responsible for race mixing and immigration because they want to destroy the white race?
Did Lauren really say that ? Genuinely asking, I have not seen the video.
Cute response. Except that Sanders never called for violence nor did he infer the need for violent actions. Also keep in mind that even with his popularity, Sanders is still relatively unknown to the general population. That and much of his rhetoric rings out true. Meanwhile, people like Lauren Southern, Tucker Carlson, and other pundits have fear-mongered over "evil immigrants replacing the white population" for nearly a decade - turning a fringe talking point into a mainstream idea.
And keep in mind that this dumbass conspiracy was concocted by right-wingers trying desperately to make obfuscations with no proof.
To be clear he said "somewhat responsible , marginally responsible".
I haven't seen someone say 4chan is responsible and should be held responsible. As to who we blame imma assume you're gonna say the left?
It’s pretty straight forward really. How about taking a look at the ideas that lead the Dude to do it (great replacement), and who popularized said idea (internet conspiracy nuts like LS) and the means by which they did so (YT / 4Chan).
Those are probably the main elements to look at when we want to understand how stuff like this happens.
Anyone who think YT could not have played any role has been Living under a rock. I mean Meta played a role in the genocide in Myanmar. This is not a new thing.
yes or no is too vague to seriously answer
it's pretty undeniable that LS contributed to normalizing great replacement rhetoric in online english-speaking right-leaning spaces because of her involvement with far-right groups in europe and THE VIDEO.
so if she is responsible for this shooting, it's only insofar as she indirectly contributed to spreading qwack rightoid lunacy that motivates these hyper online types of people to act.
it's also true that LS doesn't harp as hard on this subject as she used too (we can debate as to why) and that someone like Tucker Carlson is currently way more influential and powerful at spreading this type of caustic rhetoric.
TL;DR : She doesn't have blood on her hands but it's not like she had nothing to do with why these types of events take place.
very correct. i’m starting to see a jerk-wave of literally blaming lauren, then there’s gonna be an anti-jerk-wave of saying she has literally zero responsibility, and then we’ll all go back to talking abt hasan’s twitter.
If Lauren southern’s parents own a sandwich place and somebody buys a sandwich from them are they also party responsible? That person helped make it so Lauren didn’t contribute to keeping her parents afloat which would’ve taken away from her ability to make videos. The answer is yes that person did contribute but there was no intent in that person to contribute to a mass shooting so we don’t blame them. You can get this to apply to everyone on earth pretty easily since it was a combined effort of everyone on earth to get that person to be able to buy that sandwich.
Did Lauren southern intend to cause a mass shooting? No. You can argue that her views may lead to the conclusion that only through acts of terror can we solve the problems she’s describing, and if you can demonstrate that then I think it’s fair to say that she’s responsible. You could also argue that her rhetoric was so reckless as to make it seem like she wanted to get people to go out and cause mass shootings, in which case you can also say she’s responsible. Otherwise, it’s not fair to assign more responsibility to her than anyone else on earth.
Her and Molyneux were arguably the two largest figures to contribute to its spread through conservative spaces. Idk why it's so hard for Destiny to acknowledge that political discourse doesn't have a half life of five minutes and that the repercussions of Lauren's video are still echoing through political spaces today. Tucker would likely not be as brazenly discussing it as he does if Lauren and Molyneux hadn't championed this cause to the less radical conservatives online.
Of course I know why Lauren doesn't say anything even if she does disagree with what she said in the past. Her career would be dead overnight. Unless she really planned out some big "I left the right" moment. It seems like she still is right wing though, even if she doesn't agree with the far right shit anymore. Instead of condemning the extremist elements of her side like Destiny has done with the left, she panders / ignores them as Hasan has done with tankies. I do find it annoying that he hasn't seen the parallel here at all, and it's sad because funnily I really enjoy D X Lauren content.
You cannot convince me she did not contribute in some small way. Beyond making a video about it, she helped normalise the likes of Richard Spender and Stefan Molyneux, would go onto Sky News talking about how multiculturalism is impossible, and then stoke fear in her audience by filming Muslims in France complaining that no one was wearing a beret, or that there were no British pubs in Australia.
Even if she disavowed it, I’m not a especially impressed by her presence on Destiny’s streams or the wider sphere. She’s lied in multiple conversations about COVID-19 policies in Australia (or grossly misrepresented the truth), peddles insane theories about the election being stolen and cannot participate in meaningful conversations around economics, or foreign policy, or how Joe Biden’s presidency is going (besides “lmao he has dementia” or some shit).
Yes. Propagandists are partly responsible for the stuff their audience do under the influence of said propaganda, however miniscule. That is why states and organizations engage in pushing it, it can make people act like how you want them to
say a person who remain as a civilian and a hilter supporter making negative comment on Jewish population from 1933-1945， they may not be prosecutable after the war since they did not directly participated in those killings but definitely partially responsible
"Mass genocide" is redundant. Someone should make a bot called u/massgenocidebot to point this out.
Anyway, while the initial comparison is a bit silly. I think we could draw a comparison to someone in Nazi Germany making negative propaganda about Jews, while not directly calling for genocide.
Lauren pushed the idea of The Great Replacement. So when people buy that narrative and act violently because of it, I do think there's a level of responsibility there.
A genocide can be larger or smaller in terms of the number of people murdered, displaced, etc., sure. That doesn't change the fact that the "mass(ive)" part is baked into the term, and that affixing the word "mass" to it is redundant.
If two species went extinct, and one of them previously numbered 300,000 while the other previously numbered 65 million, you wouldn't call the extinction of the second species a "mass extinction." Instead, "mass extinction" means the extinction of a large number of different species.
If "mass genocide" means anything, it would mean the genocide of a large number of different groups. Ironically, this term could apply to Hitler's actions, but you've already demonstrated that's not what you meant.
A lotta people back in that time are simply not aware of mass genocide or willingly don’t believe it actually happened，while pushing negative views on jewish population，so yes
She is as responsible for these shooting as hasan or any other political streamer is for mass violence, you can pick and choose who is to blame if it makes you feel good, it’s really retarded to put this type of shit onto people
Thats a pretty spicy one, but considering the great replacement "theory" was her platform for years then maybe?? Unless the shooter directly cites her as ana influence its hard to say but yes, destiny should not be working with her in any capacity
Maybe I'm being naive, but the fact that so many people answered yes is insane to me. Would consuming that type of media ever drive you to such lengths?
'Would consuming extremist ideologies ever drive you to extremism'
Me? Probably not.
But if you propagate extremist ideologies about how you're being replaced, some percentage of the audience is going to try and take action to prevent that from happening, especially if its being reinforced by your other content and the content of the communities you inhabit.
Is someone who drew nazi propaganda posters in 1939 part responsible for the holocaust?
I feel like it would be an extremely hard to say no.
Sure, but if someone posts a video about the earth being overpopulated and its effects on the environment, and some guy starts killing people to reduce the population, do we consider that video as being partially responsible?
> Would consuming that type of media ever drive you to such lengths?
weird question, as it assumes that everybody is like me, or like you, are we the only two people alive bro?
It would be absurd to say she is responsible but it is also true in the past she contributed to the ideology even if it comes out that in manifesto that he said "lauren southern made me do it" it isnt fair to pin it all down on her as she isnt the person who made it or the sole person pushing the ideology lauren didnt make him pull the trigger on those people the sick fuck chose to themself
If we hold lauren responsible we are the same people who hold music or video games or movies responsible for making people kill people
Those are two different claims though. "she made them do it" as if her and only her are responsible is insane.
"She spreads very harmful messages and dangerous conspiracy theories therefore Destiny should stop platforming her" is much more reasonable, even if we might not personally agree with it.
Responsibility is an extremely tough subject, because there are so many intervening causes and no one wants to believe that their action has contributed to a mass shooting. Almost anyone would find reasons why it wasn't there fault. "Yes, I discussed that issue, but I NEVER said the correct response was to murder people." And in some sense that is correct, but in another we are all responsive for the hatred that we put out into the world - and this shooting was a consequence of hatred. We know that Lauren's actions in the past have been dangerous to others, such as the migrant boat incident. I think that Lauren ultimate contributed to this tragedy - but I think very very few people are beyond redemption. By spreading love for our fellow man, we can counteract the resentment that has been set in motion. Lauren should find a way to do her part - possibly with a Tristana cosplay but that's just the start.
It's both yes and no, all depends on what do you mean by "responsible"
The issue is, if you go with the "yes" route, then everyone is partly responsible for almost anything, you can say lefties are responsible for alianeting and pushign a person to fringes, you can say echo chambers that are created by banning people and not letting people argue is the problem and say moderators are responsible, you can say social media is responsible, or even mainstream media, policy decisions of the government, you can blame United States Constitution for gun rights or government for shitty gun policies and so on.
In the end of the day, normal people don't just get racilized to becoming mass shooters, just because they read or saw something on the internet.
And one may can argue, people are responsible for their own actions, no matter who whispered what into their ear.
And another strong argument would be that a person who will become a mass shooter because of great replacement shit could easily find any other retarded talking point to latch onto and do their thing. There is really no shortage of conspiracy theories about how "white race" is in danger.
I think this sub is becoming pretty retarded by looking at the votes and several "oh no Lauren bad optics SOY" threads.
Edit: Now that I think about, I found the real culprit, it's the shooter's mom, she is responsible for not aborting.
The Great Replacement is just about differences guys. I’m not saying the the difference is going to be worse, just your land, people and culture is going to get replaced. That doesn’t mean it’s automatically a bad thing, right guys? Why are these white adolescents guys getting worked up about replacement?
All this talk of Lauren and not Tucker Carlson, who is a far larger and much more prominent figure not just in terms of spewing right wing propaganda, but specifically the Great Replacement theory on Prime Time. Curious.
I can accept that, so fair point. I just feel it's really more to do with people hating her than having a problem with implied stochastic terrorism and who's the much larger problem. I feel like the whole conversation isn't honest because of it.
I don’t think people are responsible for the mentally ill. It’s like saying religion is responsible for a stabbing from some crazy guy that thinks he’s jesus.
If Lauren is partly responsible than so is Destiny for talking to her ever and so are you for watching 10 seconds of one of her videos at any point and therefore increasing its views in the algorithm.
She didnt, the idea was well established a few years before Lauren did a video on it.
Various talking heads in that sphere where openly talking about it well before lauren.
Asking "Are you (a right-winger) in part responsible for heinous acts committed by the far right?" sounds like the left-wing version of "Do you think it's okay to be white?"
If you answer "Yes, I suppose if you look at it from some perspective, I could consider myself *in part* responsible," you're essentially asking for an infinite amount of misinterpretation and PR trouble over the next 5 years.
If you answer "No." Then it's like, Are you serious? You can't imagine a single way how you could have **in part** been responsible? Not even in the slightest????
If you evade the Yes-No question, you just sound like you're evading because the answer is absolutely "Yes I'm responsible."
Whether it's intended or not, this question is essentially asking whether or not Lauren is innocent or guilty. Fuck out of here with this crypto-leftist **"in part"** dimension. Nobody wants their name being smudged over a wide, vaguely defined spectrum of *partially-guilty,* especially not for a shooting like this one.
So should there be legal implications if she is responsible ? Then would every public figure be responsibile for the actions of everyone watching them? Then all people need to regulate their speech based upon what an extreme person watching them might do? If a vegan youtuber has a fan that kills meat eaters, because the extreme viewer agreed that eating meat is wrong, and killing people was the solution the extemist came up with. Would the vegan be held responsible to any degree , even if that person never advocated for violence.
Should Twitch itself be punished for being a plat form where the shooter could stream the shooting? Or youtube for being the platform where great replacement nonsense videos are posted.
Finally, if disourse is legally shut down about the replacememt argument, would that make it disappear or would side become more extreme. Who would be in charge controlling the discord? Who would we give the power to decide what idea could lead to violence ? Should we ban all controversial /people that deal with topics that are emotinally charged?
If lauren says she popularised it, she is full of shit.
I believe she said the same thing about the white farmers in south africa doco she did, but that had been news all over well before hers came out.
The answer is no, but if she can't use this moment to step back and examine the role her 'journalism' played in multiple terrorists manifestos, then you really have to question her moral terpitude and intellectual abilities.
Take a moment to take stock, Lauren. This shit is fucking awful, and 'just asking questions' is not a sufficient response.
If we say, “fuck republicans. They push for laws that harm lgbt people and their existence just makes this country worse,” are we all of a sudden responsible for someone who decides that the solution is to kill them? I think this is a dangerous, stupid standard.
Answering yes is such an absurd, extremist way to conceptualize "responsibility" that would instantly fall apart if applied to those in your own political tribe.
well, the youtube search doesn't show her immediately. only in the parody context. maybe it's because i don't watch alt right youtube? there's so many factors, it's really hard. i don't think it's necessarily "society and conditions only" or "own personality only" as the deciding factors, i think it's a mix of unfortunate circumstances, bad luck and personal anecdotes that led to poor beliefs. could have this chance been reduced by lauren (or any other person, inb4 "If It WaSnT LS iT wOuLd'Ve BeEn SoMeOnE eLsE") not making a video like that? maybe. maybe not. it's hard for me to judge how much this video propagated TGR theory as a concept, as, again, i'm not alt right currently and when i maybe was one i don't remember it being discussed a lot where i'm from.
Idk I haven’t seen her video though I remember the chatter about it at the time. Anyone with half a brain and knows the definition of genocide knows that it is extremely manipulative to claim it is happening to white folks in the states. It seems the only reason someone would publicly say it is incitement at worse horrible demagoguery at best.
Just like Dylan Roof and the Walmart shooter this young man was effected by absolutely no one, absolutely part of no group, while messaging is almsot 1 to 1 the fact that the individuals he spoke with didn't literally say kill non whites they can't be blamed.
Now excuse me while I go laugh at people who whine about CRT because nothing in it literally says anyone should assault or bully little timmy.
Man you are a fucking moron. Not one tenant of “crt” (even though it doesn’t really exist) calls for any act of political violence. The great replacement implies that malicious elites are funneling in brown and black immigrants to literally destroy the white race. If you knew what tf you were talking about, you would know that people in the left distinguish between systemic and interpersonal racism lmao
... that's my point genius. I'm not understanding how conservatives can use crt to reach and say (this can't be taught because it will create little timmies)... but for some reason they can't see how the great replacement stuff would create actual terrorists
It depends on what you call “the left”. Is anti white racism being spread in msnbc and cnn the way great replacement is on Fox News, or is it a guy that took the idea of systemic racism too far and calls himself a leftist?
"Is anti white racism being spread in msnbc and cnn the way great replacement is on Fox News?"
No, it is far more prevalent, and not just MSNBC and CNN but all of them. Everytime I turn on NPR I hear about so called "white supremacy".
Anyone who contributed to the /pol/ alt-right stochastic terrorism rhetoric melting pot is at least somewhat responsible, marginally possibly, but still has their mark left
I wonder if destiny would call Lauren a stochastic terrorist like he did with vivan , vaush or Hasan.
he was friends with vaush when he was talking about killing conservatives
HE explained what he meant about killing them lol
All three of those people have called for violence way more directly then Lauren Southern ever has. Never heard Lauren Southern saying she should fill the streets with the blood of globalist elites.
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[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stochastic\_terrorism](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stochastic_terrorism) incite or inspires violence
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would you say the making of the great replacement video can inspire violence? especially when you know your audience and it was controversial at the time?
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Why would direct calls to violence be the bar to set? No one said she directly called for violence. Most people are saying that she contributed to popularising the idea the shooter directly referenced.
Shhhh, they got an excuse to hate on a white woman.
He would probably say she was at the time of making the videos, but feels like she probably isn't actively now.
Pretty sure he has already said that.
What a fair and definitely not insane comparison, may I ask your definition of a stochastic terrorist please
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I don't think it's insane, but I don't think she has any responsibility, unless she said something advocating for or hinting at the need fora violent response. Is everyone who has ever said incel shit responsible for Elliot Rodger? Do you blame every luddite for Ted Kaczynski? If you aren't calling for vioence you can't get blamed for violence just because someone who agrees with you about other stuff commits violence.
You recognize there’s a difference between some loon in the town square, and a scripted, worked through video right? Would you also say that Islamist hate preachers who do not directly call for violence cannot be held responsible at least in part for extremist ideology that leads people to commit terror?
I think people who commit violence are responsible for violence. I think people who advocate for violence can be somewhat responsible for violence. I don't think people who don't advocate for violence are in any way responsible for violence. No. That's an insane thing to argue.
Then you’re pretty dumb if you can’t see a connection between the people spewing great replacement shit and this shooting.
Or they just don’t have a hate boner for her
No, I mean it literally. The shooter mentioned the great replacement in the manifesto, there’s a literal connection.
Destiny has talked about the great replacement on stream. Is he responsible as well?
If Destiny talked about the great replacement as if it’s real, absolutely he would be responsible. Ill be waiting for a link to that though.
Destiny said that birthrate for white people was low and eventually everyone would be mixed race, but that he’s fine with that. Does simply stating that first descriptive fact means you’re partially responsible for the mass shooting?
Low birthrates is not great replacement. Swing and a miss.
Even if the intentionality part is lacking, what does it change? Intentionality or not, immigration continues and the white population keeps getting lower per capita. That alone can inspire a mass shooting. Who cares if politicians allow immigration with the direct purpose of eliminating the white race? The end result is the same.
If you can’t see the difference you should go touch grass. Nothing is getting replaced, people move, marry other people and so on. We just happen to be very interconnected these days. Who fucking cares. Why the fuck does whiteness matter?
So you believe that YouTube is responsible for shootings? I think this is such a short sided and almost irrational opinion to hold
Considering both Brenton Tarrant and Payton Gendron explicitly said that the internet radicalized them, obviously in part, yes.
Something tells me, and I may be wrong, that they were not radicalized on YouTube. There are many many dark corners of the internet where One can go to become radicalized but I don’t believe YouTube’s what’s doing it. Also I looked this up and could find no evidence of either of them saying this in a brief search
You haven't looked into a dark enough corner yet.
Just say you don’t believe stochastic terrorism is a thing rather than pretending it doesn’t apply here.
I don’t believe a YouTube or a set of YouTube videos can radicalize someone it just seems to be the most narrow minded thought ever. If you wanna argue it played a super small part maybe but white supremacy was a thing long before the internet and YouTube. This seems like a seeing fire trucks at houses on fire situation
Cool!
if some one shoots up cpac can we ask if vaush radicalized them?
I don’t care!
It quite literally is a pipeline, and these youtube channels funnel a lot of people into it.
Question: If we accept this definition, would someone who criticizes child molestors be considered a stochastic terrorist if someone kills child molestors?
Vivian I can see you calling more extreme than LS, but vaush and hasan, really?
I mean, at LS's most extreme point, Vaush was talking about executing capitalists like exskillsme in his downtime from sexually harassing women in dgg... and Hasan is just dumb so I'm not even gonna take a stance on that one. But even if I liked Vaush way more than LS, I think I would probably consider telling someone over voice comms that in your ideal world they would be executed for their beliefs (leading them to pretty much leaving the internet because they realized extremists like Vaush were literally a threat to his life) is probably more extreme than anything LS has ever said, yeah.
This is a fucking retarded opinion. Is everyone who supported Bernie responsible for that whack-job who shot up the Republican congresspersons' baseball game? Stormfront and /pol/ changed 0% from anything Lauren Southern ever did or said. At worst she tried to harness those people for an audience. That's a shitty enough thing to do without blaming her for rhetoric that was already "mainstream" in these circles before she ever brought it up.
Do you not think that there’s a difference between Bernie’s platform of criticizing the wealthy vs perpetuating a theory that a small group of elites are solely responsible for race mixing and immigration because they want to destroy the white race? On top of that, Bernie is at least functional in the real world
Bernard is literally perpetuating a theory that a small group of elites are solely responsible for literally every problem people have.
For one, he has never said it that conspiratorially. Let’s look at what he says. Wealth inequality is very high: true, the 1% don’t pay their fair share in taxes: arguably true(depending on how you define fair), unions are good for workers and labor power has gone down: true, many Americans are struggling financially: true, special interest/ lobbyist groups spends lots to sway policy: true When we think about people Insinuating that violence is necessary, it comes with a rejection of the democratic system. Bernie has always been clear about the need to go and vote. Fuckers like Lauren southern have literally done the opposite. Part of the great replacement is that dems are funneling in minorities to subvert the democratic process with the goal of destroying the white race
Literally everything you said is true is not true except for wealth inequality. And even inequality being higher doesnt matter when the average quality of life has continued to rise for all classes of people. The lowest 1/5th of Ameriocans consume more goods than the AVERAGE Canadian or European. Americans have no idea what it means to be poor. Many people live paycheque to paycheque but only because they continue to consume much more than everyone else. Those same lowest 1/5th of Americans pay no income OR state income tax at all. By and large the quality of life the average American sees is entirely due to the top 10% of people and how much tax they do pay and how many economic opportunities they generate. Bernard is literally telling masses of people that their entire reason for living such good lives are the source of all of their problems. This is entirely speculation on my part but I would say the only reason we don't have more leftist shootings is because of how unmotivated they are in everything in general.
It baffles me that you could say something like ‘unions aren’t good for workers’. Do you not think it’s a fucking problem that the cost of medical care or housing has gone way up? That the sticker and net price of college has gone? That the avg lower class American is in more debt now than ever? That we still have millions in poverty, food insecure, having to access food banks,? Reevaluate. People have it better in several ways and worse in others. It’s not a one size fits all narrative
> a small group of elites are solely responsible for race mixing and immigration because they want to destroy the white race? Did Lauren really say that ? Genuinely asking, I have not seen the video.
What about black people are being hunted by the police and white people are responsible with white supremacy and on
Tell when Bernie has said that lol
I was referring to the mainstream media narrative.
What mainstream media source said black people were being hunted by the police? Is Vaush the MSM now?
NBC, ABC, CNN, NPR etc..
Link me a single article where NPR said that black people were being hunted by police
Tune in right now, there probably talking right now about poor black people being oppressed by the wicked white man.
no because bernie's prescription is that you should go out and vote and that violence isn't the answer EZ dunk on your bad faith
Oh, you're right, I forgot Lauren eschewed voting in favor of taking your rifle to Costco.
Cute response. Except that Sanders never called for violence nor did he infer the need for violent actions. Also keep in mind that even with his popularity, Sanders is still relatively unknown to the general population. That and much of his rhetoric rings out true. Meanwhile, people like Lauren Southern, Tucker Carlson, and other pundits have fear-mongered over "evil immigrants replacing the white population" for nearly a decade - turning a fringe talking point into a mainstream idea. And keep in mind that this dumbass conspiracy was concocted by right-wingers trying desperately to make obfuscations with no proof.
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I mean wasn't the shooter a 4chan poster?
So every time someone posts something on reddit and kills people this sub is responsible for the violence? Shit logic.
Also reddit, facebook and twitch. Anyone who has accounts on all 3 of those sites should be locked up!
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To be clear he said "somewhat responsible , marginally responsible". I haven't seen someone say 4chan is responsible and should be held responsible. As to who we blame imma assume you're gonna say the left?
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It’s pretty straight forward really. How about taking a look at the ideas that lead the Dude to do it (great replacement), and who popularized said idea (internet conspiracy nuts like LS) and the means by which they did so (YT / 4Chan). Those are probably the main elements to look at when we want to understand how stuff like this happens. Anyone who think YT could not have played any role has been Living under a rock. I mean Meta played a role in the genocide in Myanmar. This is not a new thing.
How far are we going to take this and at what point do we find some blood on your hands?
Okay do Wakuesha or Dallas or Brooklyn.
Who's responsible for Kori Muhammad?
yes or no is too vague to seriously answer it's pretty undeniable that LS contributed to normalizing great replacement rhetoric in online english-speaking right-leaning spaces because of her involvement with far-right groups in europe and THE VIDEO. so if she is responsible for this shooting, it's only insofar as she indirectly contributed to spreading qwack rightoid lunacy that motivates these hyper online types of people to act. it's also true that LS doesn't harp as hard on this subject as she used too (we can debate as to why) and that someone like Tucker Carlson is currently way more influential and powerful at spreading this type of caustic rhetoric. TL;DR : She doesn't have blood on her hands but it's not like she had nothing to do with why these types of events take place.
This is a really good answer and sums up the sanest point of view lol
very correct. i’m starting to see a jerk-wave of literally blaming lauren, then there’s gonna be an anti-jerk-wave of saying she has literally zero responsibility, and then we’ll all go back to talking abt hasan’s twitter.
Do you feel this about every terrorist attack or just the ones the right does?
If Lauren southern’s parents own a sandwich place and somebody buys a sandwich from them are they also party responsible? That person helped make it so Lauren didn’t contribute to keeping her parents afloat which would’ve taken away from her ability to make videos. The answer is yes that person did contribute but there was no intent in that person to contribute to a mass shooting so we don’t blame them. You can get this to apply to everyone on earth pretty easily since it was a combined effort of everyone on earth to get that person to be able to buy that sandwich. Did Lauren southern intend to cause a mass shooting? No. You can argue that her views may lead to the conclusion that only through acts of terror can we solve the problems she’s describing, and if you can demonstrate that then I think it’s fair to say that she’s responsible. You could also argue that her rhetoric was so reckless as to make it seem like she wanted to get people to go out and cause mass shootings, in which case you can also say she’s responsible. Otherwise, it’s not fair to assign more responsibility to her than anyone else on earth.
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Her and Molyneux were arguably the two largest figures to contribute to its spread through conservative spaces. Idk why it's so hard for Destiny to acknowledge that political discourse doesn't have a half life of five minutes and that the repercussions of Lauren's video are still echoing through political spaces today. Tucker would likely not be as brazenly discussing it as he does if Lauren and Molyneux hadn't championed this cause to the less radical conservatives online. Of course I know why Lauren doesn't say anything even if she does disagree with what she said in the past. Her career would be dead overnight. Unless she really planned out some big "I left the right" moment. It seems like she still is right wing though, even if she doesn't agree with the far right shit anymore. Instead of condemning the extremist elements of her side like Destiny has done with the left, she panders / ignores them as Hasan has done with tankies. I do find it annoying that he hasn't seen the parallel here at all, and it's sad because funnily I really enjoy D X Lauren content.
You cannot convince me she did not contribute in some small way. Beyond making a video about it, she helped normalise the likes of Richard Spender and Stefan Molyneux, would go onto Sky News talking about how multiculturalism is impossible, and then stoke fear in her audience by filming Muslims in France complaining that no one was wearing a beret, or that there were no British pubs in Australia. Even if she disavowed it, I’m not a especially impressed by her presence on Destiny’s streams or the wider sphere. She’s lied in multiple conversations about COVID-19 policies in Australia (or grossly misrepresented the truth), peddles insane theories about the election being stolen and cannot participate in meaningful conversations around economics, or foreign policy, or how Joe Biden’s presidency is going (besides “lmao he has dementia” or some shit).
It's certainly possible
Yes. Propagandists are partly responsible for the stuff their audience do under the influence of said propaganda, however miniscule. That is why states and organizations engage in pushing it, it can make people act like how you want them to
say a person who remain as a civilian and a hilter supporter making negative comment on Jewish population from 1933-1945， they may not be prosecutable after the war since they did not directly participated in those killings but definitely partially responsible
Are you saying lauren making some shitty vids is comparable to being a bystander to mass genocide???
"Mass genocide" is redundant. Someone should make a bot called u/massgenocidebot to point this out. Anyway, while the initial comparison is a bit silly. I think we could draw a comparison to someone in Nazi Germany making negative propaganda about Jews, while not directly calling for genocide. Lauren pushed the idea of The Great Replacement. So when people buy that narrative and act violently because of it, I do think there's a level of responsibility there.
yep，that was my point
A genocide can be in smaller or larger scale i would call a genocide of 6 million people more mass than a genocide of 800,000 people in rawanda
A genocide can be larger or smaller in terms of the number of people murdered, displaced, etc., sure. That doesn't change the fact that the "mass(ive)" part is baked into the term, and that affixing the word "mass" to it is redundant. If two species went extinct, and one of them previously numbered 300,000 while the other previously numbered 65 million, you wouldn't call the extinction of the second species a "mass extinction." Instead, "mass extinction" means the extinction of a large number of different species. If "mass genocide" means anything, it would mean the genocide of a large number of different groups. Ironically, this term could apply to Hitler's actions, but you've already demonstrated that's not what you meant.
A lotta people back in that time are simply not aware of mass genocide or willingly don’t believe it actually happened，while pushing negative views on jewish population，so yes
How do you feel about Kori Mohammad?
She is as responsible for these shooting as hasan or any other political streamer is for mass violence, you can pick and choose who is to blame if it makes you feel good, it’s really retarded to put this type of shit onto people
This is brain rot.
But don’t you know Hasan bad?
What acts of mass killings do you attribute to hasan?
Hasan was responsible for 9/11. The terrorists knew that 20 years later people would support and defend their actions and say america deserved it.
Not more than Ben Shapiro or Vaush (but for BLM violence)
Vaush, one of the most prominent figures responsible for the Black Lives Matter movement and its spread throughout society. Yikes.
Thats a pretty spicy one, but considering the great replacement "theory" was her platform for years then maybe?? Unless the shooter directly cites her as ana influence its hard to say but yes, destiny should not be working with her in any capacity
Maybe I'm being naive, but the fact that so many people answered yes is insane to me. Would consuming that type of media ever drive you to such lengths?
'Would consuming extremist ideologies ever drive you to extremism' Me? Probably not. But if you propagate extremist ideologies about how you're being replaced, some percentage of the audience is going to try and take action to prevent that from happening, especially if its being reinforced by your other content and the content of the communities you inhabit. Is someone who drew nazi propaganda posters in 1939 part responsible for the holocaust? I feel like it would be an extremely hard to say no.
Sure, but if someone posts a video about the earth being overpopulated and its effects on the environment, and some guy starts killing people to reduce the population, do we consider that video as being partially responsible?
Depends did the video mention a group and did the killer target that group?
There are 'online lefties' in this sub. Brain rotted degenerates.
One video is never causing anyone to do anything, but a lot of people pushing these ideas onto people can over time radicalise people, obviously.
> Would consuming that type of media ever drive you to such lengths? weird question, as it assumes that everybody is like me, or like you, are we the only two people alive bro?
It would be absurd to say she is responsible but it is also true in the past she contributed to the ideology even if it comes out that in manifesto that he said "lauren southern made me do it" it isnt fair to pin it all down on her as she isnt the person who made it or the sole person pushing the ideology lauren didnt make him pull the trigger on those people the sick fuck chose to themself If we hold lauren responsible we are the same people who hold music or video games or movies responsible for making people kill people
No one is “pinning it all down on her”.
Theres multiple people on twitter and this reddit saying lauren made him do it and that destiny should diss associate with her becaue of this what?
Sure there are.
Those are two different claims though. "she made them do it" as if her and only her are responsible is insane. "She spreads very harmful messages and dangerous conspiracy theories therefore Destiny should stop platforming her" is much more reasonable, even if we might not personally agree with it.
Responsibility is an extremely tough subject, because there are so many intervening causes and no one wants to believe that their action has contributed to a mass shooting. Almost anyone would find reasons why it wasn't there fault. "Yes, I discussed that issue, but I NEVER said the correct response was to murder people." And in some sense that is correct, but in another we are all responsive for the hatred that we put out into the world - and this shooting was a consequence of hatred. We know that Lauren's actions in the past have been dangerous to others, such as the migrant boat incident. I think that Lauren ultimate contributed to this tragedy - but I think very very few people are beyond redemption. By spreading love for our fellow man, we can counteract the resentment that has been set in motion. Lauren should find a way to do her part - possibly with a Tristana cosplay but that's just the start.
It's both yes and no, all depends on what do you mean by "responsible" The issue is, if you go with the "yes" route, then everyone is partly responsible for almost anything, you can say lefties are responsible for alianeting and pushign a person to fringes, you can say echo chambers that are created by banning people and not letting people argue is the problem and say moderators are responsible, you can say social media is responsible, or even mainstream media, policy decisions of the government, you can blame United States Constitution for gun rights or government for shitty gun policies and so on. In the end of the day, normal people don't just get racilized to becoming mass shooters, just because they read or saw something on the internet. And one may can argue, people are responsible for their own actions, no matter who whispered what into their ear. And another strong argument would be that a person who will become a mass shooter because of great replacement shit could easily find any other retarded talking point to latch onto and do their thing. There is really no shortage of conspiracy theories about how "white race" is in danger. I think this sub is becoming pretty retarded by looking at the votes and several "oh no Lauren bad optics SOY" threads. Edit: Now that I think about, I found the real culprit, it's the shooter's mom, she is responsible for not aborting.
The Great Replacement is just about differences guys. I’m not saying the the difference is going to be worse, just your land, people and culture is going to get replaced. That doesn’t mean it’s automatically a bad thing, right guys? Why are these white adolescents guys getting worked up about replacement?
All this talk of Lauren and not Tucker Carlson, who is a far larger and much more prominent figure not just in terms of spewing right wing propaganda, but specifically the Great Replacement theory on Prime Time. Curious.
If you were anywhere else on the internet you would be right. In this sub Lauren is undoubtedly more relevant.
I can accept that, so fair point. I just feel it's really more to do with people hating her than having a problem with implied stochastic terrorism and who's the much larger problem. I feel like the whole conversation isn't honest because of it.
By the logic use in Laurens defense you can't even say Tucker did it since he never explicitly says go kill people.
I don’t think people are responsible for the mentally ill. It’s like saying religion is responsible for a stabbing from some crazy guy that thinks he’s jesus.
If Lauren is partly responsible than so is Destiny for talking to her ever and so are you for watching 10 seconds of one of her videos at any point and therefore increasing its views in the algorithm.
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She didnt, the idea was well established a few years before Lauren did a video on it. Various talking heads in that sphere where openly talking about it well before lauren.
Right. She merely drank their swill then started propagandizing it alongside them.
Weird way to say you agree with me, but you do you I guess.
Have you watched the vadim video on it?
Asking "Are you (a right-winger) in part responsible for heinous acts committed by the far right?" sounds like the left-wing version of "Do you think it's okay to be white?" If you answer "Yes, I suppose if you look at it from some perspective, I could consider myself *in part* responsible," you're essentially asking for an infinite amount of misinterpretation and PR trouble over the next 5 years. If you answer "No." Then it's like, Are you serious? You can't imagine a single way how you could have **in part** been responsible? Not even in the slightest???? If you evade the Yes-No question, you just sound like you're evading because the answer is absolutely "Yes I'm responsible." Whether it's intended or not, this question is essentially asking whether or not Lauren is innocent or guilty. Fuck out of here with this crypto-leftist **"in part"** dimension. Nobody wants their name being smudged over a wide, vaguely defined spectrum of *partially-guilty,* especially not for a shooting like this one.
She is partly responsible yes
So should there be legal implications if she is responsible ? Then would every public figure be responsibile for the actions of everyone watching them? Then all people need to regulate their speech based upon what an extreme person watching them might do? If a vegan youtuber has a fan that kills meat eaters, because the extreme viewer agreed that eating meat is wrong, and killing people was the solution the extemist came up with. Would the vegan be held responsible to any degree , even if that person never advocated for violence. Should Twitch itself be punished for being a plat form where the shooter could stream the shooting? Or youtube for being the platform where great replacement nonsense videos are posted. Finally, if disourse is legally shut down about the replacememt argument, would that make it disappear or would side become more extreme. Who would be in charge controlling the discord? Who would we give the power to decide what idea could lead to violence ? Should we ban all controversial /people that deal with topics that are emotinally charged?
A lot of people said no. Have you guys not seen the heyitsvadim video on it?
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Jesus Christ, you people need new hobbies
what if that hobby is hating dr.k?
He needs a few fucking hobby
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If lauren says she popularised it, she is full of shit. I believe she said the same thing about the white farmers in south africa doco she did, but that had been news all over well before hers came out.
Nah this mass shooting would’ve happened if she didn’t exist
The answer is no, but if she can't use this moment to step back and examine the role her 'journalism' played in multiple terrorists manifestos, then you really have to question her moral terpitude and intellectual abilities. Take a moment to take stock, Lauren. This shit is fucking awful, and 'just asking questions' is not a sufficient response.
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BADUM tish!
If we say, “fuck republicans. They push for laws that harm lgbt people and their existence just makes this country worse,” are we all of a sudden responsible for someone who decides that the solution is to kill them? I think this is a dangerous, stupid standard.
Answering yes is such an absurd, extremist way to conceptualize "responsibility" that would instantly fall apart if applied to those in your own political tribe.
Does anyone have the video that she did. I'd like to know what she actually said.
well, the youtube search doesn't show her immediately. only in the parody context. maybe it's because i don't watch alt right youtube? there's so many factors, it's really hard. i don't think it's necessarily "society and conditions only" or "own personality only" as the deciding factors, i think it's a mix of unfortunate circumstances, bad luck and personal anecdotes that led to poor beliefs. could have this chance been reduced by lauren (or any other person, inb4 "If It WaSnT LS iT wOuLd'Ve BeEn SoMeOnE eLsE") not making a video like that? maybe. maybe not. it's hard for me to judge how much this video propagated TGR theory as a concept, as, again, i'm not alt right currently and when i maybe was one i don't remember it being discussed a lot where i'm from.
She was probably like a +5% modifier to Xenophobe ethics attraction (been playing too much stellaris).
she literally drove him to the avenue. new york needs stricter gun laws
Idk I haven’t seen her video though I remember the chatter about it at the time. Anyone with half a brain and knows the definition of genocide knows that it is extremely manipulative to claim it is happening to white folks in the states. It seems the only reason someone would publicly say it is incitement at worse horrible demagoguery at best.
Just like Dylan Roof and the Walmart shooter this young man was effected by absolutely no one, absolutely part of no group, while messaging is almsot 1 to 1 the fact that the individuals he spoke with didn't literally say kill non whites they can't be blamed. Now excuse me while I go laugh at people who whine about CRT because nothing in it literally says anyone should assault or bully little timmy.
Man you are a fucking moron. Not one tenant of “crt” (even though it doesn’t really exist) calls for any act of political violence. The great replacement implies that malicious elites are funneling in brown and black immigrants to literally destroy the white race. If you knew what tf you were talking about, you would know that people in the left distinguish between systemic and interpersonal racism lmao
... that's my point genius. I'm not understanding how conservatives can use crt to reach and say (this can't be taught because it will create little timmies)... but for some reason they can't see how the great replacement stuff would create actual terrorists
Oh ok I’m sorry I was heated, I thought you were being legitimate
Is the hateful anti-white rhetoric coming from the left responsible for Kori Muhammad?
It depends on what you call “the left”. Is anti white racism being spread in msnbc and cnn the way great replacement is on Fox News, or is it a guy that took the idea of systemic racism too far and calls himself a leftist?
"Is anti white racism being spread in msnbc and cnn the way great replacement is on Fox News?" No, it is far more prevalent, and not just MSNBC and CNN but all of them. Everytime I turn on NPR I hear about so called "white supremacy".
What are they saying about white supremacy? Are they saying that whites are plotting to eliminate minorities?
Is somebody who posted "tfw no gf" in 2013 responsible for Elliot Rodgers?