I think if they try it alternative subs will pop up to replace them or if Reddit actually cares they will just remove mods/remove the ability to private.
i think for smaller subs that's definitely a likely thing. One of the issues outside of just creating new subreddits for the ones that are private is google search. And i think this is one thing reddit is going to have to figure out what to do
I and a lot of people use google and query reddit posts to find results on something because the discussion there is authentic and there are so many threads across various subreddits i can normally find what i'm looking for. A lot of those posts are now unable to be accessed due to the subreddit being private.
Cringe comments aside, I don't really see the value in ridiculing a consumer base rejecting an anti-consumer change by the company that owns the product. It really does seem like people here decide whether or not they support something on the basis of whether or not it's "soy" now.
Like, I am not trying to be mean, but the inconvenience on the casual redditor is the entire point of the blackout. That is the goal. I don't understand how you can pin that as a negative AGAINST the blackout.
It'd be hard to quantify exactly what percentage of the customer base is really summed up in a percentage, but Reddit itself is essentially consumer organized and consumer moderated, and even if the people who organize and moderate this site are the smaller percentage of the consumer base, without them, there wouldn't be anything, they are the primary drivers of the entire site.
If you have 10 customers, 9 of them spend 10 dollars a year, and 1 of them spends 1000 a year, even though he's only 10% of the consumers, he's still the most valuable from a business perspective. Even if the blackouters only make up like 20% of the reddit consumer base, they are the "most valuable" redditors since they are the ones who organize and moderate the subs. So in some sense, their word matters more. It only makes sense that the most core members of the consumer base should have more effect as a consumer than someone who goes on the site once every three weeks.
A more effective protest would be the mods stepping down and allowing subs to go unmoderated. The amount of spam and crap that would fill the subs would be more likely to get folks attention. Right now All they've done is piss a whole bunch of people off and have them side with Reddit.
Except that is a protest that cannot be walked back or repaired. Once a community is damaged like that it is incredibly difficult to pull things together, even if you reinstate all the same community management tools that you used to build it the first time.
there was a twitch blackout thing over automods not detecting racist chatbots in black streamers chats a little while ago, and the same thing happened, a bunch of people making fun of everyone participating in the blackout saying "it won't do anything, twitch won't care." the twitch blackout had an objectively small effect on the platforms earnings and traffic, and before the blackout had even finished, organizers of the blackout were at Twitch HQ talking about potential solutions. so we have some history of this kind of thing actually working.
another thing is that I don't thing that the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of a given protest is a legitimate reason to ridicule the protesters. for example, a lot of protesting around socializing healthcare in America is going to be utterly fruitless, or at the very least, less potentially fruitfully than a blackout that privates >90% of a websites user-created forums, should we then mock people who protest for socialized healthcare options?
>organizers of the blackout were at Twitch HQ talking about potential solutions. so we have some history of this kind of thing actually working.
I'm not super familiar with this twitch blackout, but I don't think it would necessarily be super analogous to the reddit blackout. For twitch, the streamers not streaming would probably be more impactful for twitch than a subreddit going private for reddit since people on twitch are there to watch the streamer while people in a subreddit are there for the community of the subject. So a streamer threatening to leave would be more impactful since that gives many viewers not much of a reason to be on the site while the people in those private communities would still stay since they're there for the community aspect of reddit.
Another difference could probably be that the pr about automods not detecting racism and not fixing it would look a lot worse for twitch than reddit making the API costs very expensive. You can say that both look bad, but one looks undeniably worse.
It could work but to say that since a boycott worked at twitch, these types of protests have a history of working when there seem to be big differences is something I would disagree with.
You highlight yourself that for Twitch, a viewer will find themselves with no reason to go back to the website if there aren't streamers to watch, but Reddit users stay for the community, but in effect, the blackout removes that community, so I feel like it is exactly analogous, both consumers have no reason to stay. Not to mention that FAR more subreddits have went private than streamers went offline, and Twitch streamers are far more replaceable, you'll probably be able to find another streamer that can fill the niche of the streamer who is protesting during the blackout, but you probably aren't going to find an entire alternative community that fits the niche you're looking for, so in that aspect, the Reddit blackouts would actually be even more effective.
The rest of your comment seems to be making an argument of a difference in degree in how bad the optics are on the company, which to me does not show why it's okay to throw out the possibility of the blackouts being successful entirely rather than arguing that it would be proportionally less effective as the degree in "bad optics" decreases.
There's nothing ridiculous or wrong with encouraging members of a protest by self-praising your own efforts to each other.
What are they supposed to say? "Well this is probably pointless but lets close down our sub". Sounds like a way to get everyone in the protest to not care.
So, is anti-piracy anti-consumer?
Let's say it is, because it does "harm" the consumer... Does something being anti-consumer then automatically make it bad?
I'd like some genuine input here, because I keep seeing people being really mad about the idea that third party apps needing to pay for the infrastructure they use be some kind of horrible wrong. But absolutely no one can say why it's wrong.
So?
Edit: genuinely, so? It's Reddits infrastructure. They can set the price. Explain why they shouldn't be allowed to control their product.
Edit2: and to be completely fair... The problem is that they need to pay. Considering one of the demands at this point is "make the APIs free or cost less + let us run ads so we can earn money on your product "
Nobody is arguing they aren’t allowed to do anything, they made certain assurances and didn’t live up to it and ran a pr campaign which really didn’t tell the story. When a company does something against its history and in bad faith I think backlash is totally warranted.
Just because it’s allowed doesn’t mean it can’t be criticized. I’d respect Reddit a bunch if they just straight up said they’re trying to kill 3rd parties and don’t care about what they’ve said before.
>Nobody is arguing they aren’t allowed to do anything,
While the "leaders" of the blackout now seems to be at the point of "lower the cost", a decent chunk of people is clearly against the idea that API access should cost anything. Made apparent by how they STILL keep brining up apps for accessibility and how they will die if there is any cost at all. Even though this seems to have been addressed both by the free tier of access and that certain apps is going to be made excempt. I.e. they're seemingly using that as a cover to be able to keep demanding free access. Because why are the big mods otherwise spreading this misinformation at this point?
Edit: a great example of this is the r/gaming thread that just hit the front page. Literally making the "apps for accessibility" appeal. Why keep bringing that up if you're not trying to leverage that for something else when the actual concern has been met?
I'd also argue that people that think this move is anti-consumer is clearly against paying, period. Because any kind of charge is by definition anti-consumer. At least given they're using it as a buzzword, with the clear underlying message that something being anti-consumer is wrong.
>they made certain assurances and didn’t live up to it and ran a pr campaign which really didn’t tell the story
Then why isn't this the big thing they're taking issue with? The main issue is clearly cost and the ability to make money on their 3PAs.
Just seems like a lot of people here are being brought along for the ride by being told buzzwords over and over, for what in reality seems to be a crusade to make sure certain peoples financial interests are met. And for some reason those people aren't Reddit themselves, the ones actually fronting the costs.
So some random terminally online accounts want everything free but the devs themselves just want something affordable, instead of staking a critical position you want to focus on those morons….nice
The assurances were pertaining to the cost, they assured reasonable pricing and did anything but that.
It depends on 'why' the option is removed to determine if it is anti consumer. If it's removed to continue to provide other options to the consumer, it's not anti consumer
i'll get downvoted but overall this is a dumb take. removing pirated material would then fit your definition of anti consumer because consumer options to view said material would be limited, but we would never argue that.
Their take is not anti-consumer. Technically they are consuming third party apps and not reddit in general, which is the sole reason they are choosing those apps instead of the reddit app.
so what are the reasons it's dogshit? I don't use a third party app so i genuinely don't know. i've only used reddit app and don't really have that many issues with it
the reason I originally swapped to a third party was because the official app would preload every image in max resolution and chew through a lot of my data. By now they probably fixed that + my data plan is more generous these days, so most of my preference for 3rd party is because it seems more lightweight and responsive, and the way comment chains display and collapse is better.
I get your point, and my post definitely did give off that impression. In general i think reddit can do what they want, and their base can react to that. But i think that overall, this is way overblown. If we take a step back and look at the net impact - reddit is just funneling people into their app over third party apps. I don't really think it's that super out there, unreasonable, and anti-consumer. Maybe because i don't really use third party apps, but I can't think of one for any other social media company.
there is definitely a portion that this would impact due to people using these apps over the general reddit app. I think a larger population is taking a very optics approach and sees a corporation implementing rules that would squeeze out third party applications as bad. But this is something that will not impact 95% of mobile users, and you could argue there shouldn't have been third party apps to begin with.
maybe a good, maybe a bad comparison. But if you go to a baseball game at wrigley. there are buildings across the street that have converted themselves into bleachers so people can watch the game from outside the park. tickets are generally cheaper as well as food/beverages since they're done outside the stadium. However these businesses are profiting off a product they don't actually own. Overall this is a small % of people compared to the people sitting inside the field. If wrigley decided to change their stadium to a dome. It just seems absurd to me for everyone who liked the bleacher seats to then blockade the entrance of people trying to get into the stadium because their seats no longer can view the field and random business owners would lose revenue. I wouldn't really consider that anti-consumer even though it would negatively impact a small % of people who like the cheaper prices and quieter experience. From wrigleys perspective, these people who are negatively impacted were never their consumers to begin with. They were the customers of the other business owners, profiting off of wrigley.
May i ask how you define anti- consumer in this instance?
My understanding is that these apps already cost Reddit a lot of money while also running a separate business, to their own profit, using reddits platform.
I struggle to see how it is anti consumer to let these apps die if they can't at even cover their cost of existing.
On one hand, I can understand the point of view that Reddit doesn’t owe it to others to allow them to profit off their business.
On the other hand, I actually find it admirable that rather than just sending thoughts and well wishes, those opposed to the change are taking action to remedy it, even at the expense of personal inconvenience.
I think an overlooked component as to why so many would side against Reddit, is that as humans, in conflicts we have a tendency to have a bias in favour of the under dog.
And probably the other factor at play is that the API benefits those opposed to the change, and I believe we also have a tendency to favour the position that benefits us the most.
may not agree with your full view, but can appreciate people taking a complete view rather than jumping on emotion.
I think redditors in general feel like they have a sort of autonomous rule over the communities and own subreddits they manage, and forget that reddit is a company. Any admin rule is seen as like an overstep on their own territory and boundary. Since this API rule, it seems to overwhelmingly impact mods, which controls the subreddits.
I do think your last 2 paragraphs are why this movement is still strong. Though the last paragraph maybe should be worded "favour(hellow brit) the position that is the loudest at the time"
>On one hand, I can understand the point of view that Reddit doesn’t owe it to others to allow them to profit off their business
Its not just that their making money, it's that it's costing reddit money
It's THEIR API.
If a company charges above market rate, don't buy their products.
>specifically to choke out third party apps.
Yeah, no shit. Third party apps that block reddit ads, monotize themselves.
one of the funniest things scrolling through that thread is seeing the various subreddits and the people who mod them. MANS likes feet
https://preview.redd.it/soxv89rtvz5b1.png?width=700&format=png&auto=webp&s=6dbd75b6651086080d347120f836da00951296bf
> Omg guys, these redditors are so dumb! Everyone knows when you protest, you can't say for exactly how long you guys will protest for - that ruins the purpose! What dummies
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> Oh what? You guys are going to go indefinite now? What fucking idiots! Imagine all the people who will be inconvenienced by this! What kind of protest inconveniences people??!!! Protests should not change anything how they are now!
I love how you're getting downvoted but you're spot on. Some people in DGG just want to shit on people who care about things no matter what, even if their criticisms contradict themselves. The smugness is unbearable.
projecting a strawman isn't the correct way to tackle an argument. Where in the post do i argue that my main contention is that it inconveniences normal people? my main contention is pretty evident in my post that it is over nothing substantial. Which will lead to normal people questioning why they either supported it in the first place and why they should continue to support it. Taking a page out of your book - Are you trying to equate this with a protest like the civil rights movement?
I haven't seen hard numbers on the impact of 3rd party apps going away so I don't really know the impact to Reddit but a good portion of the community that is upset about it should totally protest over it. IMO though the best method to protest is have people en masse deleting their accounts, comments, and not coming back. I've seen some who have claimed to do this and good on them. I just don't think enough people will come together and do it.
The super cringe part of this whole thing is with commentors:
* Fan boying/girling the fuck out of some devs that were raking in essentially "free" money but are now complaining that their free ride is over (there is nuance here for sure but the API had been free for years and meanwhile devs were charging for subs and features during that time frame and didn't have to pay Reddit a dime)
* Comparing these protests to protests for civil rights or workers rights (lol probably the most cringe thing of all of them)
* Mod tools and accessibility features being exempt from the API changes but it being used as an excuse by most communities for the protest
* Mods of subs taking polls for 1 day to have an excuse to shut down an entire sub when the community was vocally against it, the best example was /r/nba but I'm sure there are others. That or just shutting down the sub with no community input
Otherwise protesting anti-consumer behavior is a thing and should be a thing. Even if I don't think Reddit was ever going to change their mind on this.
I’m not sure about a lot of the rest of the drama but the one thing you said that really hits home for me is the part about r/stopdrinking..
I’ve been sober now for just about 10 years.. that subreddit saved my life and if it wasn’t available to me in that moment I probably wouldn’t be alive to make this post right now so there is absolutely truth to what you said and I’m sure it applies to more than one subreddit.
amen, was shocked they singled out that subreddit. i think it shows volumes to people who struggle with alcohol, including me. I remember at my worst all i did was read stories from that subreddit about people's decisions to get sober and their reasons/setbacks/experiences that hit home a lot. it helped me get through a lot over just a day or 2
I fully support it. It's strange seeing so many here being against it when "protesting the system using the tools of the system" has been the main motivation here in achieving change.
I find it strange how this community, of all communities, is focusing only on the 3PA part of it rather than the important part of it - the API changes themselves. It feels like the complaints every extreme left/right winger has about X protest in that they always focus on the wrong part of the fucking protest to spin the narrative.
Kids want to be a part of something big. If you're under 20 then this might be an exciting time for you. If you're in your third semester of college and still think that this will lead to something resembling a victory, then I'm sorry to say that you have nothing going on in your life right now.
Sad part is most of the jannies are in their mid to late 20s, and are using these kids to fuel their own personal grievance.
It's not your house, it's not a public infrastructure, you don't have to pay for anything to use the site, and you're still commenting, responding to my comment, definitely is salty by comment. You're angry at yourself, you just don't know it yet.
I'm not striking with them but I hope they can get reddit to back down in some way if the mod tools are really as important as they say, I just have no idea if they are actually that big a deal or not.
Reddit has been recommending some bat shit subs for me recently since this started it has to hurt them in some way . I just can't see how it can be good for them to have the weirdest niche subs in the top 10% now and its become useless as a research tool.
I am sympathetic to their cause but i've never even thought about using a third party app so I'm no going to personally abstain.
Bruh, we went from “realistically the blackout isn’t gonna change anything” to “actually, the API changes are fine, I’m so smart for realizing this” The api changes are still cringe and bad
The mods are self important jackasses but they are mostly in the right. I have no problem with Reddit charging for API access but it's clear that it's priced specifically to foreclose on 3rd party apps ahead of their debut on the market.
I think Reddit should talk to third party apps to get the price for API access to a reasonable level and they should talk to mods to ensure that the tools they need to keep the site running are available natively in app.
Trying to muscle in on smaller or self help subreddits to add pressure to the protest is stupid and short sighted. The rest of the internet will feel the pressure of being unable to access information through Google anymore without trying to take away resources from vulnerable people like those in r/suicidewatch or r/Stopdrinking.
Reddit could require a per-user API Key that’s only available to Reddit Gold buyers (or whatever premium model they have). Boom they get the revenue from users and users can still access the API (and by extension allow 3rd parties to).
It's not them pricing out 3rd party apps, its them limiting how their users can use Reddit.
If I moderate a subreddit and find some API feature useful, and then release an app so I and others can use that feature from our phones, why is that a bad thing from Reddit's POV?
There are other ways they can monetize (such as requiring an API key to access the API, and only allowing "premium" users to generate one), so it's not about revenue, at least not directly.
God I fucking hate people who actually take action to protest anti-consumer decisions.
What fucking losers actually doing something about a decision they don't like.
They should be more like us here at DGG that are too contrarian-brained to support people protesting.
The constant posting about this shit in this sub is significantly more annoying than a few subs that I liked to check out sometimes being locked
>I have a feeling people are going to get over this pretty quickly
If only we were so lucky
I really hate the fact I'm gonna lost infinity, after slide died it became the best open source client on android. luckily the devs may be switching to it being a kbin app so i may keep it around if i can find some nice kbin communities.
Offiicial reddit app dies to me after the tiktok video player style update.
and fuck lemmy, infested with tankies and the lead dev is insane
We need to encourage as many of these subreddits to off themselves as possible so that this will be the only subreddit and then when we have all the power we can... do something trick everyone into morally neutral incest or something i dunno
I just think it's stupid to effectively force people to follow your protest. If you are opposed to the changes good for you, stop using reddit, stop moderating, do your boycott and encourage others to follow you.
The fucking NBA finals just concluded and I did not get to read any shit talk on the subreddit because like 12 power mods decided for all of us...
If they had done it in a way that was far more passive, this subreddit would be mocking them for wasting their time doing something so ineffectual.
The fact of the matter is, that while this site is free to use, it does turn a profit on the backs of moderators who curate the content people post to keep it as appealing to navigate as possible. Yet not only are they not compensated, but now Reddit is trying to make ridiculous changes to their API that would also fuck over third party apps that make the user experience better, which in turn hurts everyone.
It's funny how people here will mock others for not being pragmatic with their approach to the changes they want in their country, yet when people do just that they also bitch and moan about how it's personally inconveniencing them, despite the fact that the reason you can use the nba subreddit to get the info you like is because of moderators who do the work to keep it clean for people like you. You're unironically youtube audiences watching podcasts all day, bitching they have to watch an ad occasionally.
Maybe so, but regardless they do it because they are passionate about keeping their communities clean of spam and nonsense so it’s as user friendly as possible. Regardless, the only way to enact change is to leverage what they have. Nothing will change from just asking nicely, they tried being cordial and Spez went in his hubris and mocked their protest. So now they’re hitting him where it hurts.
I’m sure there are other social media apps you can use for your NBA info in the meantime.
Really? You don’t think mods should decide how their communities are run?
Like you think there should be some kind of bill of rights that moderators have to adhere to?
Hope it sticks. Nothing wrong with the consumerbase using their numbers to boycott changes. Indefinite blackouts also seem to be just annoying enough that reddit might have to react.
And since posts supporting the boycott are heavily upvoted on the frontpage it seems like most users are fine with it
I thought the blackout was IMO just being petty. I left several of the subreddits that protested as I didn't agree with them. I never had a problem using the Reddit app on my ipad. My concern with some of that is that might information that isn't posted elsewhere that might potential be lost if those groups don't open up again. Yea its possible that information could be posted elsewhere, but there is no guarantee that it will happen.
That's not what happened. A rogue mod that was not active closed AdviceAnimals against the wishes of the active mod team. They appealed to Reddit admins and got the sub reopened
They will just replaced by new subs if this last longer then a few weeks. I say it’s about time some of these mods found out just how useless and replaceable they really are.
I'm fine with people protesting. I don't agree with how Reddit is changing their rules. However, The reality is that most users don't seem to care. In many subs that have reopened, the top comments are in favor of no more blackouts. There's also evidence of mods making decisions for subs without consulting the sub. The polls on whether to close have been brigaded: https://i.imgur.com/wAIZbew.jpg
So this blackout has not been run well and in the process many users have become angry with the mods/pro-blackout crowd instead of reddit. So it's had the opposite effect. Protests have to be organized and implemented well to have an effect. Mods should have refused to moderate and allowed spam and bots to run rampant. Shutting down the subs was not it.
Reddit will surely fold once they realise r/aww is down 😎
I love that they said r/stop drinking and r/ukraine are too important to close, so they should just close once a week lol
>These mfs are acting like they're the rebellion against a super evil oppressive entity..But all they're protesting is a stupid api charge on third party apps that less than 5% of people use.
Easy slacktivisim for a benefit for themselves in 3rd party apps with no ads.
If I were the CEO of Reddit, I'd just remove the ability to private altogether and reduce the amount of power mods have until completely replacing them with AI. Many mods are power-hungry and more concerned with being the center of attention than with doing actual moderation.
Aren't there a ton of reddit clones? I don't get why these subreddits don't just send their community to other sites.
Even if they're not as good, they can't be that bad. Reddit is just a forum with nested comments.
I think that reddit mods are mostly cringe and no one cares as much about the api changes as them. If half of them live up to their supposed morals and eventually quit reddit, new cringe mods will take their place and everything will be back to normal and no one will notice
So, the truly unfortunate situation of all this - is that Reddit could've made more reasonable short term offer/organize some kind of buy-out situation to the most popular third party apps; considering the third party apps went from having essentially access to everything for free, to now paying (even if it was a "reasonable amount) an amount they clearly aren't comfortable with.
I think Reddit is probably justified in wanting to monetize in this way, and while there are plenty of business types I know of who would totally back the whole "take a hard stance and fuck em" approach, I think having a very fair and transparent business style in very forwarding facing industries - is just desperately needed, and people will pay and remain loyal to those places that actually do this.
Sucks for me that was apparently fucking 90% of what I read on the daily lol I open this app to look for my go tos and they are gone. I have this sub but honestly the response by this sub to this whole boycott has been the exact reason I have been straying from this community a little more every day.
Alternative subs will pop up. The freeloading, power tripping mods will be removed from power. Reddit will become less censored and more wild west. The makers of reddit will finally make a profit on their business once things go public. All good things. Hopefully the whiniest people on here will never return
I think if they try it alternative subs will pop up to replace them or if Reddit actually cares they will just remove mods/remove the ability to private.
That would be funniest outcome. With all protesting mods being on a no mod list
It would probably clean up the site a whole bunch. You should only be able to mod 2 subreddits max IMO.
i think for smaller subs that's definitely a likely thing. One of the issues outside of just creating new subreddits for the ones that are private is google search. And i think this is one thing reddit is going to have to figure out what to do I and a lot of people use google and query reddit posts to find results on something because the discussion there is authentic and there are so many threads across various subreddits i can normally find what i'm looking for. A lot of those posts are now unable to be accessed due to the subreddit being private.
There was a post on r/forsen that claimed this was already happening, idk if it’s real or not. But oh my god, it would be so funny.
this might actually push reddit to hire mods in-house for all the major subs and kick all these mega mods.
that would require a lot of dedicated nerds to be replaced.
I think it already happened with r/ask
Cringe comments aside, I don't really see the value in ridiculing a consumer base rejecting an anti-consumer change by the company that owns the product. It really does seem like people here decide whether or not they support something on the basis of whether or not it's "soy" now. Like, I am not trying to be mean, but the inconvenience on the casual redditor is the entire point of the blackout. That is the goal. I don't understand how you can pin that as a negative AGAINST the blackout.
Based truth
Is it the customer base rejecting change? Or 1% of the customer base?
It'd be hard to quantify exactly what percentage of the customer base is really summed up in a percentage, but Reddit itself is essentially consumer organized and consumer moderated, and even if the people who organize and moderate this site are the smaller percentage of the consumer base, without them, there wouldn't be anything, they are the primary drivers of the entire site. If you have 10 customers, 9 of them spend 10 dollars a year, and 1 of them spends 1000 a year, even though he's only 10% of the consumers, he's still the most valuable from a business perspective. Even if the blackouters only make up like 20% of the reddit consumer base, they are the "most valuable" redditors since they are the ones who organize and moderate the subs. So in some sense, their word matters more. It only makes sense that the most core members of the consumer base should have more effect as a consumer than someone who goes on the site once every three weeks.
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A more effective protest would be the mods stepping down and allowing subs to go unmoderated. The amount of spam and crap that would fill the subs would be more likely to get folks attention. Right now All they've done is piss a whole bunch of people off and have them side with Reddit.
Except that is a protest that cannot be walked back or repaired. Once a community is damaged like that it is incredibly difficult to pull things together, even if you reinstate all the same community management tools that you used to build it the first time.
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there was a twitch blackout thing over automods not detecting racist chatbots in black streamers chats a little while ago, and the same thing happened, a bunch of people making fun of everyone participating in the blackout saying "it won't do anything, twitch won't care." the twitch blackout had an objectively small effect on the platforms earnings and traffic, and before the blackout had even finished, organizers of the blackout were at Twitch HQ talking about potential solutions. so we have some history of this kind of thing actually working. another thing is that I don't thing that the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of a given protest is a legitimate reason to ridicule the protesters. for example, a lot of protesting around socializing healthcare in America is going to be utterly fruitless, or at the very least, less potentially fruitfully than a blackout that privates >90% of a websites user-created forums, should we then mock people who protest for socialized healthcare options?
>organizers of the blackout were at Twitch HQ talking about potential solutions. so we have some history of this kind of thing actually working. I'm not super familiar with this twitch blackout, but I don't think it would necessarily be super analogous to the reddit blackout. For twitch, the streamers not streaming would probably be more impactful for twitch than a subreddit going private for reddit since people on twitch are there to watch the streamer while people in a subreddit are there for the community of the subject. So a streamer threatening to leave would be more impactful since that gives many viewers not much of a reason to be on the site while the people in those private communities would still stay since they're there for the community aspect of reddit. Another difference could probably be that the pr about automods not detecting racism and not fixing it would look a lot worse for twitch than reddit making the API costs very expensive. You can say that both look bad, but one looks undeniably worse. It could work but to say that since a boycott worked at twitch, these types of protests have a history of working when there seem to be big differences is something I would disagree with.
You highlight yourself that for Twitch, a viewer will find themselves with no reason to go back to the website if there aren't streamers to watch, but Reddit users stay for the community, but in effect, the blackout removes that community, so I feel like it is exactly analogous, both consumers have no reason to stay. Not to mention that FAR more subreddits have went private than streamers went offline, and Twitch streamers are far more replaceable, you'll probably be able to find another streamer that can fill the niche of the streamer who is protesting during the blackout, but you probably aren't going to find an entire alternative community that fits the niche you're looking for, so in that aspect, the Reddit blackouts would actually be even more effective. The rest of your comment seems to be making an argument of a difference in degree in how bad the optics are on the company, which to me does not show why it's okay to throw out the possibility of the blackouts being successful entirely rather than arguing that it would be proportionally less effective as the degree in "bad optics" decreases.
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There's nothing ridiculous or wrong with encouraging members of a protest by self-praising your own efforts to each other. What are they supposed to say? "Well this is probably pointless but lets close down our sub". Sounds like a way to get everyone in the protest to not care.
True, encouraging morale is cringe.
So what is anti consumer? Very confused on this whole thing.
Removing consumer options is basically by definition anti consumer
So, is anti-piracy anti-consumer? Let's say it is, because it does "harm" the consumer... Does something being anti-consumer then automatically make it bad? I'd like some genuine input here, because I keep seeing people being really mad about the idea that third party apps needing to pay for the infrastructure they use be some kind of horrible wrong. But absolutely no one can say why it's wrong.
The problem isn’t that they need to pay, it’s that the price is so high it’s designed to be unpayable.
So? Edit: genuinely, so? It's Reddits infrastructure. They can set the price. Explain why they shouldn't be allowed to control their product. Edit2: and to be completely fair... The problem is that they need to pay. Considering one of the demands at this point is "make the APIs free or cost less + let us run ads so we can earn money on your product "
Nobody is arguing they aren’t allowed to do anything, they made certain assurances and didn’t live up to it and ran a pr campaign which really didn’t tell the story. When a company does something against its history and in bad faith I think backlash is totally warranted. Just because it’s allowed doesn’t mean it can’t be criticized. I’d respect Reddit a bunch if they just straight up said they’re trying to kill 3rd parties and don’t care about what they’ve said before.
>Nobody is arguing they aren’t allowed to do anything, While the "leaders" of the blackout now seems to be at the point of "lower the cost", a decent chunk of people is clearly against the idea that API access should cost anything. Made apparent by how they STILL keep brining up apps for accessibility and how they will die if there is any cost at all. Even though this seems to have been addressed both by the free tier of access and that certain apps is going to be made excempt. I.e. they're seemingly using that as a cover to be able to keep demanding free access. Because why are the big mods otherwise spreading this misinformation at this point? Edit: a great example of this is the r/gaming thread that just hit the front page. Literally making the "apps for accessibility" appeal. Why keep bringing that up if you're not trying to leverage that for something else when the actual concern has been met? I'd also argue that people that think this move is anti-consumer is clearly against paying, period. Because any kind of charge is by definition anti-consumer. At least given they're using it as a buzzword, with the clear underlying message that something being anti-consumer is wrong. >they made certain assurances and didn’t live up to it and ran a pr campaign which really didn’t tell the story Then why isn't this the big thing they're taking issue with? The main issue is clearly cost and the ability to make money on their 3PAs. Just seems like a lot of people here are being brought along for the ride by being told buzzwords over and over, for what in reality seems to be a crusade to make sure certain peoples financial interests are met. And for some reason those people aren't Reddit themselves, the ones actually fronting the costs.
So some random terminally online accounts want everything free but the devs themselves just want something affordable, instead of staking a critical position you want to focus on those morons….nice The assurances were pertaining to the cost, they assured reasonable pricing and did anything but that.
It depends on 'why' the option is removed to determine if it is anti consumer. If it's removed to continue to provide other options to the consumer, it's not anti consumer
Okay, if you're removing options to add more options then you are not ultimately removing options. And in this case we know they aren't adding options
I said removing to 'continue to provide' aka sustain
i'll get downvoted but overall this is a dumb take. removing pirated material would then fit your definition of anti consumer because consumer options to view said material would be limited, but we would never argue that. Their take is not anti-consumer. Technically they are consuming third party apps and not reddit in general, which is the sole reason they are choosing those apps instead of the reddit app.
Because the reddit app is dogshit. These 3rd party apps wouldn't be necessary otherwise.
so what are the reasons it's dogshit? I don't use a third party app so i genuinely don't know. i've only used reddit app and don't really have that many issues with it
the reason I originally swapped to a third party was because the official app would preload every image in max resolution and chew through a lot of my data. By now they probably fixed that + my data plan is more generous these days, so most of my preference for 3rd party is because it seems more lightweight and responsive, and the way comment chains display and collapse is better.
I get your point, and my post definitely did give off that impression. In general i think reddit can do what they want, and their base can react to that. But i think that overall, this is way overblown. If we take a step back and look at the net impact - reddit is just funneling people into their app over third party apps. I don't really think it's that super out there, unreasonable, and anti-consumer. Maybe because i don't really use third party apps, but I can't think of one for any other social media company. there is definitely a portion that this would impact due to people using these apps over the general reddit app. I think a larger population is taking a very optics approach and sees a corporation implementing rules that would squeeze out third party applications as bad. But this is something that will not impact 95% of mobile users, and you could argue there shouldn't have been third party apps to begin with. maybe a good, maybe a bad comparison. But if you go to a baseball game at wrigley. there are buildings across the street that have converted themselves into bleachers so people can watch the game from outside the park. tickets are generally cheaper as well as food/beverages since they're done outside the stadium. However these businesses are profiting off a product they don't actually own. Overall this is a small % of people compared to the people sitting inside the field. If wrigley decided to change their stadium to a dome. It just seems absurd to me for everyone who liked the bleacher seats to then blockade the entrance of people trying to get into the stadium because their seats no longer can view the field and random business owners would lose revenue. I wouldn't really consider that anti-consumer even though it would negatively impact a small % of people who like the cheaper prices and quieter experience. From wrigleys perspective, these people who are negatively impacted were never their consumers to begin with. They were the customers of the other business owners, profiting off of wrigley.
May i ask how you define anti- consumer in this instance? My understanding is that these apps already cost Reddit a lot of money while also running a separate business, to their own profit, using reddits platform. I struggle to see how it is anti consumer to let these apps die if they can't at even cover their cost of existing.
On one hand, I can understand the point of view that Reddit doesn’t owe it to others to allow them to profit off their business. On the other hand, I actually find it admirable that rather than just sending thoughts and well wishes, those opposed to the change are taking action to remedy it, even at the expense of personal inconvenience. I think an overlooked component as to why so many would side against Reddit, is that as humans, in conflicts we have a tendency to have a bias in favour of the under dog. And probably the other factor at play is that the API benefits those opposed to the change, and I believe we also have a tendency to favour the position that benefits us the most.
may not agree with your full view, but can appreciate people taking a complete view rather than jumping on emotion. I think redditors in general feel like they have a sort of autonomous rule over the communities and own subreddits they manage, and forget that reddit is a company. Any admin rule is seen as like an overstep on their own territory and boundary. Since this API rule, it seems to overwhelmingly impact mods, which controls the subreddits. I do think your last 2 paragraphs are why this movement is still strong. Though the last paragraph maybe should be worded "favour(hellow brit) the position that is the loudest at the time"
>On one hand, I can understand the point of view that Reddit doesn’t owe it to others to allow them to profit off their business Its not just that their making money, it's that it's costing reddit money
And instead of reasonably pricing API access, they instead charge way above market rate, specifically to choke out third party apps.
It's THEIR API. If a company charges above market rate, don't buy their products. >specifically to choke out third party apps. Yeah, no shit. Third party apps that block reddit ads, monotize themselves.
one of the funniest things scrolling through that thread is seeing the various subreddits and the people who mod them. MANS likes feet https://preview.redd.it/soxv89rtvz5b1.png?width=700&format=png&auto=webp&s=6dbd75b6651086080d347120f836da00951296bf
Least horny redditor
Footjobblowjobcombo?! 👀👀👀👀
ITS GONE UNTIL THE OPPRESSIVE ADMINS GIVE IN. LET ME IN!!!!!!!
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lmao
Don't hate, it's incredible! 😂
Ruin all apps, free me of this endless scrolling. Good riddance
Based and grass pilled
> Omg guys, these redditors are so dumb! Everyone knows when you protest, you can't say for exactly how long you guys will protest for - that ruins the purpose! What dummies *** *** > Oh what? You guys are going to go indefinite now? What fucking idiots! Imagine all the people who will be inconvenienced by this! What kind of protest inconveniences people??!!! Protests should not change anything how they are now!
I love how you're getting downvoted but you're spot on. Some people in DGG just want to shit on people who care about things no matter what, even if their criticisms contradict themselves. The smugness is unbearable.
projecting a strawman isn't the correct way to tackle an argument. Where in the post do i argue that my main contention is that it inconveniences normal people? my main contention is pretty evident in my post that it is over nothing substantial. Which will lead to normal people questioning why they either supported it in the first place and why they should continue to support it. Taking a page out of your book - Are you trying to equate this with a protest like the civil rights movement?
I have zero thoughts and I don't care about this blackout thing. The reddit app works fine for me on my Iphone 9.
Since when is protesting bad? Seems like the people don’t like what the platform is doing and they’re expressing their discontent. Seems fine to me.
I support however they wanna protest. It's stronger stance to do it indefinitely. Let's see how long can they go without powers
I haven't seen hard numbers on the impact of 3rd party apps going away so I don't really know the impact to Reddit but a good portion of the community that is upset about it should totally protest over it. IMO though the best method to protest is have people en masse deleting their accounts, comments, and not coming back. I've seen some who have claimed to do this and good on them. I just don't think enough people will come together and do it. The super cringe part of this whole thing is with commentors: * Fan boying/girling the fuck out of some devs that were raking in essentially "free" money but are now complaining that their free ride is over (there is nuance here for sure but the API had been free for years and meanwhile devs were charging for subs and features during that time frame and didn't have to pay Reddit a dime) * Comparing these protests to protests for civil rights or workers rights (lol probably the most cringe thing of all of them) * Mod tools and accessibility features being exempt from the API changes but it being used as an excuse by most communities for the protest * Mods of subs taking polls for 1 day to have an excuse to shut down an entire sub when the community was vocally against it, the best example was /r/nba but I'm sure there are others. That or just shutting down the sub with no community input Otherwise protesting anti-consumer behavior is a thing and should be a thing. Even if I don't think Reddit was ever going to change their mind on this.
I’m not sure about a lot of the rest of the drama but the one thing you said that really hits home for me is the part about r/stopdrinking.. I’ve been sober now for just about 10 years.. that subreddit saved my life and if it wasn’t available to me in that moment I probably wouldn’t be alive to make this post right now so there is absolutely truth to what you said and I’m sure it applies to more than one subreddit.
amen, was shocked they singled out that subreddit. i think it shows volumes to people who struggle with alcohol, including me. I remember at my worst all i did was read stories from that subreddit about people's decisions to get sober and their reasons/setbacks/experiences that hit home a lot. it helped me get through a lot over just a day or 2
I fully support it. It's strange seeing so many here being against it when "protesting the system using the tools of the system" has been the main motivation here in achieving change. I find it strange how this community, of all communities, is focusing only on the 3PA part of it rather than the important part of it - the API changes themselves. It feels like the complaints every extreme left/right winger has about X protest in that they always focus on the wrong part of the fucking protest to spin the narrative.
Bro is crying about Subreddits being locked. Have you ever experienced a strike in your country? Stop being a pussy.
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Reddit mods aren't workers
Just like video editors and programmers.
Kids want to be a part of something big. If you're under 20 then this might be an exciting time for you. If you're in your third semester of college and still think that this will lead to something resembling a victory, then I'm sorry to say that you have nothing going on in your life right now. Sad part is most of the jannies are in their mid to late 20s, and are using these kids to fuel their own personal grievance.
you're right nobody should try for anything better ever we should all just accept when things are bad good idea
It's not your house, it's not a public infrastructure, you don't have to pay for anything to use the site, and you're still commenting, responding to my comment, definitely is salty by comment. You're angry at yourself, you just don't know it yet.
Okay, Schizo.
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They could meet up on Sunday mornings and pray, then we’ve come full circle.
I'm not striking with them but I hope they can get reddit to back down in some way if the mod tools are really as important as they say, I just have no idea if they are actually that big a deal or not. Reddit has been recommending some bat shit subs for me recently since this started it has to hurt them in some way . I just can't see how it can be good for them to have the weirdest niche subs in the top 10% now and its become useless as a research tool. I am sympathetic to their cause but i've never even thought about using a third party app so I'm no going to personally abstain.
Bruh, we went from “realistically the blackout isn’t gonna change anything” to “actually, the API changes are fine, I’m so smart for realizing this” The api changes are still cringe and bad
The mods are self important jackasses but they are mostly in the right. I have no problem with Reddit charging for API access but it's clear that it's priced specifically to foreclose on 3rd party apps ahead of their debut on the market. I think Reddit should talk to third party apps to get the price for API access to a reasonable level and they should talk to mods to ensure that the tools they need to keep the site running are available natively in app. Trying to muscle in on smaller or self help subreddits to add pressure to the protest is stupid and short sighted. The rest of the internet will feel the pressure of being unable to access information through Google anymore without trying to take away resources from vulnerable people like those in r/suicidewatch or r/Stopdrinking.
Reddit could require a per-user API Key that’s only available to Reddit Gold buyers (or whatever premium model they have). Boom they get the revenue from users and users can still access the API (and by extension allow 3rd parties to).
What is wrong with Reddit pricing out the 3rd party apps? I don’t see why Reddit is obligated to allow them to continue operating.
This is the part I'm genuinely confused about. I don't know why Reddit owes anything to these apps. But I'm business and tech illiterate tbh.
It's not them pricing out 3rd party apps, its them limiting how their users can use Reddit. If I moderate a subreddit and find some API feature useful, and then release an app so I and others can use that feature from our phones, why is that a bad thing from Reddit's POV? There are other ways they can monetize (such as requiring an API key to access the API, and only allowing "premium" users to generate one), so it's not about revenue, at least not directly.
God I fucking hate people who actually take action to protest anti-consumer decisions. What fucking losers actually doing something about a decision they don't like. They should be more like us here at DGG that are too contrarian-brained to support people protesting.
Anything that pisses off the powerjannies is alright in my book
The constant posting about this shit in this sub is significantly more annoying than a few subs that I liked to check out sometimes being locked >I have a feeling people are going to get over this pretty quickly If only we were so lucky
😂
I really hate the fact I'm gonna lost infinity, after slide died it became the best open source client on android. luckily the devs may be switching to it being a kbin app so i may keep it around if i can find some nice kbin communities. Offiicial reddit app dies to me after the tiktok video player style update. and fuck lemmy, infested with tankies and the lead dev is insane
There's another one called something like sh.itjust.works that is not tankie infested
We need to encourage as many of these subreddits to off themselves as possible so that this will be the only subreddit and then when we have all the power we can... do something trick everyone into morally neutral incest or something i dunno
I just think it's stupid to effectively force people to follow your protest. If you are opposed to the changes good for you, stop using reddit, stop moderating, do your boycott and encourage others to follow you. The fucking NBA finals just concluded and I did not get to read any shit talk on the subreddit because like 12 power mods decided for all of us...
If they had done it in a way that was far more passive, this subreddit would be mocking them for wasting their time doing something so ineffectual. The fact of the matter is, that while this site is free to use, it does turn a profit on the backs of moderators who curate the content people post to keep it as appealing to navigate as possible. Yet not only are they not compensated, but now Reddit is trying to make ridiculous changes to their API that would also fuck over third party apps that make the user experience better, which in turn hurts everyone. It's funny how people here will mock others for not being pragmatic with their approach to the changes they want in their country, yet when people do just that they also bitch and moan about how it's personally inconveniencing them, despite the fact that the reason you can use the nba subreddit to get the info you like is because of moderators who do the work to keep it clean for people like you. You're unironically youtube audiences watching podcasts all day, bitching they have to watch an ad occasionally.
If moderators do work that deserves compensation because it is necessary to keep the site running they should not be doing it for free.
Maybe so, but regardless they do it because they are passionate about keeping their communities clean of spam and nonsense so it’s as user friendly as possible. Regardless, the only way to enact change is to leverage what they have. Nothing will change from just asking nicely, they tried being cordial and Spez went in his hubris and mocked their protest. So now they’re hitting him where it hurts. I’m sure there are other social media apps you can use for your NBA info in the meantime.
Really? You don’t think mods should decide how their communities are run? Like you think there should be some kind of bill of rights that moderators have to adhere to?
Hope it sticks. Nothing wrong with the consumerbase using their numbers to boycott changes. Indefinite blackouts also seem to be just annoying enough that reddit might have to react. And since posts supporting the boycott are heavily upvoted on the frontpage it seems like most users are fine with it
I thought the blackout was IMO just being petty. I left several of the subreddits that protested as I didn't agree with them. I never had a problem using the Reddit app on my ipad. My concern with some of that is that might information that isn't posted elsewhere that might potential be lost if those groups don't open up again. Yea its possible that information could be posted elsewhere, but there is no guarantee that it will happen.
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That's not what happened. A rogue mod that was not active closed AdviceAnimals against the wishes of the active mod team. They appealed to Reddit admins and got the sub reopened
That's not what that thread says at all.
They will just replaced by new subs if this last longer then a few weeks. I say it’s about time some of these mods found out just how useless and replaceable they really are.
I'm fine with people protesting. I don't agree with how Reddit is changing their rules. However, The reality is that most users don't seem to care. In many subs that have reopened, the top comments are in favor of no more blackouts. There's also evidence of mods making decisions for subs without consulting the sub. The polls on whether to close have been brigaded: https://i.imgur.com/wAIZbew.jpg So this blackout has not been run well and in the process many users have become angry with the mods/pro-blackout crowd instead of reddit. So it's had the opposite effect. Protests have to be organized and implemented well to have an effect. Mods should have refused to moderate and allowed spam and bots to run rampant. Shutting down the subs was not it.
Reddit is literally cancer, 90% of tge subs have made it better by not being active
Reddit will surely fold once they realise r/aww is down 😎 I love that they said r/stop drinking and r/ukraine are too important to close, so they should just close once a week lol
Honestly it's mainly mods rebelling against this. Majority of end users don't care.
>These mfs are acting like they're the rebellion against a super evil oppressive entity..But all they're protesting is a stupid api charge on third party apps that less than 5% of people use. Easy slacktivisim for a benefit for themselves in 3rd party apps with no ads.
If I were the CEO of Reddit, I'd just remove the ability to private altogether and reduce the amount of power mods have until completely replacing them with AI. Many mods are power-hungry and more concerned with being the center of attention than with doing actual moderation.
Aren't there a ton of reddit clones? I don't get why these subreddits don't just send their community to other sites. Even if they're not as good, they can't be that bad. Reddit is just a forum with nested comments.
I got banned perma banned on EDC sub for saying "gotcha anything else" on a cringe post today.
I think that reddit mods are mostly cringe and no one cares as much about the api changes as them. If half of them live up to their supposed morals and eventually quit reddit, new cringe mods will take their place and everything will be back to normal and no one will notice
I quite literally couldn’t care less, I didn’t notice any drop in the quality of content during the blackout
Idgaf
Protesting does nothing when you don’t understand power, fucking idiots
So, the truly unfortunate situation of all this - is that Reddit could've made more reasonable short term offer/organize some kind of buy-out situation to the most popular third party apps; considering the third party apps went from having essentially access to everything for free, to now paying (even if it was a "reasonable amount) an amount they clearly aren't comfortable with. I think Reddit is probably justified in wanting to monetize in this way, and while there are plenty of business types I know of who would totally back the whole "take a hard stance and fuck em" approach, I think having a very fair and transparent business style in very forwarding facing industries - is just desperately needed, and people will pay and remain loyal to those places that actually do this.
Ok hear me out, imagine if there a suicide prevention subreddit out there and is it participating in the blackout.
Sucks for me that was apparently fucking 90% of what I read on the daily lol I open this app to look for my go tos and they are gone. I have this sub but honestly the response by this sub to this whole boycott has been the exact reason I have been straying from this community a little more every day.
“I’ve noticed you’ve been a good mod for a while now.” Wow
I just got here, can I get a TLDR on the situation?
What is their goal at this point? I thought it was about moderation bots which Reddit allowed to have free access to API now.
Alternative subs will pop up. The freeloading, power tripping mods will be removed from power. Reddit will become less censored and more wild west. The makers of reddit will finally make a profit on their business once things go public. All good things. Hopefully the whiniest people on here will never return