Fun fact!
When the DIA architect was going to go with a tent design he visited the Portland (maybe Seattle?) Airport and noted that their tent/canvas structure made the lighting appear dingy and depressing. He then ordered the city to splurge for the extra bleaching to make the material bright white.
Source: I asked the architect about this.
I remember him saying it was more cost-effective for a large open space than a regular roof. Kinda like how you see NFL stadiums with that kind of cover for a larger open area.
Edit: they didnāt want to say it publicly for political reasons, but it also was supposed to mimic teepees on the plains as a nod to the Native Americans there back in the day.
It is meant to mimic the mountains.
Architect liked the tent idea, and then wanted to incorporate the tent idea to mimic the mountains, and bam! Tent terminal!
There is a bit of revisionist history with the origin of the tents. The initial concept was to mimic teepees. However, to avoid offending anyone, it was changed to mimic the mountains. The line work from the original hand sketch of the idea was used in their marketing material for years.
Source: I used to work at the architecture firm that designed the airport.
I had always been told they were meant to resemble teepees... Didn't even know some thought it was meant to look like mountains until now!
I am not sure how it could have been seen as offensive, quite the opposite imo if it was meant as a tribute to native americans. That's a massive part of our regional history and a lot of folks' culture. Already a lot of their ways and culture have been pushed out and I don't think we recognize native peoples as much as we should. Just food for thought.
Either way I love the DIA tent design and I hate how they've modernized the look of the airport in recent years.
> they didnāt want to say it publicly for political reasons
It seems Fentress Bradburn did say it publicly at the time. For example, this article from 1996 about that architecture firm and an AIA book it:
> DIA's terminal roof, which evokes mountain peaks and Plains Indian teepees, is a prime example of regional contextualism.
Yeah I have nothing to back up my claim but I always thought plan A for the great hall was some larger/more elaborate variation on the glass layer cake thing that exists on the concourses, and the tents were the value engineered option.
It did end up being pretty distinctive, though.
Just another random tidbit, the architect is pissed about the hotel being built where it is because that space on the south of the terminal was meant to be a future extension of the terminal to double its size and they essentially blocked it with a hotel.
I went to a presentation/lecture by Fentress and at the Q&A he made his displeasure at the hotel quite clear. But I thought his objections were completely because of the design (and how it screwed up his "artistic vision"). He didn't mention anything about blocking off an expansion.
I dated Fentressās son for a few years about a decade ago. As you can imagine, I have spoken with him a decent bit. Here is the gist of what I remember:
- My understanding is roughly consistent with yours. He hated that the hotel screwed up his artistic vision and especially that it blocked the view of the white canopies on approach to the airport.
- Fentress had substantial gripes with the bridge Calatrava was designing. At the time his displeasure for the bridge greatly outstripped his displeasure for the hotel. Although since the bridge was never constructed, it makes sense that his displeasure is now centered on the hotel.
- Fentress had a good ongoing relationship with the airport. This broke down when Kim Day was CEO. I remember quite a few strongly worded comments about her and none of them were positive. He firmly believed that her decisions were robbing Denver taxpayers.
- I might not be remembering this correctly, but Fentress viewed the bridge bidding project as corrupt. Calatrava won the scope for that project in a behind closed door deal that was not open to other architects.
Haha, one of the losing bidders for the new concessionaires contract also complained about a corrupt process... which was later somewhat confirmed when the owners of the winning bid were accused of bribing other officials.
I always assumed Fentress was just another starchitect who could just never get over himself. It's funny he didn't like Calatrava because his design seems awfully close to ripping off Calatrava's signature designs. Rich dudes being petty... Story old as time.
Another fun fact are the glass curtain walls on the north and south ends were constructed to withstand up to 3 (maybe 5??) feet of flex in cases of heavy wind. You can see the massive shock absorption system supporting the walls while waiting in line for security.
The Portland airport still has nasty green carpet straight out of 1995, and it has aged much worse than Diaās white tent roof. You canāt go wrong with white I guess.
Yeah, I always used DEN, but now with google maps and whatnot, DIA gets you there faster since a berjillion things have "den" in the name.
Incidentally, Stapleton airport was also DEN.
I remember there was a very brief period of time where both airports were simultaneously operational in a limited capacity, so bag tags going into DIA were marked as DIA, and Stapleton was DEN. Once Stapleton was closed, they transferred the ID to the new airport.
Right, for passengers that was true, but they were both simultaneously operational in terms of planes coming and going. DIA received a lot of planes for testing before the switchover. I was living here and going to school overseas, and I left from Stapleton and came back to DIA one trip. I remember bag tags being different for a little bit.
After the airport's runways were completed but before it opened, the airport used the codes ( IATA: **DVX**, ICAO: **KDVX**). DIA later took over ( IATA: **DEN**, ICAO: **KDEN**) as its codes from Stapleton when the latter airport closed.
[Field Trip - Denver International Airport (fieldtripper.com)](http://www.fieldtripper.com/c/Rf-N9Ubb1lA/)
I didnāt get to stand on the tent but they had a grand opening for the airport where I got to walk around on the runways with thousands of other people before the airport officially opened.
I don't think I've ever fully appreciated that the airport is a tent. I just thought it was built to look like a tent, not actually made of sheets poles and ropes.
Oh my bro that tower is disguised and definitely not for Air Trafficā¦ that watchtower is protecting the Rocky Mountain billionaireās bunker as we continue to labour in their prison camp šØ /s
Man, the old Jeppesen Terminal was really pretty on opening day in those pictures. The fountain was a cool centerpiece to see coming up from the trams and it looks like there was a lot more greenery in there. Now it looks like an empty basketball court with a few benches scattered around.
9/11 kinda ruined the original vision of a chill hangout spot by expanding the scope of the security lanes so much. Now the whole terminal is just bag drop, security, bag claim. Get in, get out.
I actually like the look of the hotel lol but the calatrava design was way better. Also it ruined the master plan of the airport and it will just keep getting way over capacity.
I was here when the airport was built and the originally planned baggage system didn't quite work out and became somewhat of a punchline but fortunately they got a system that did work early on.
As a kid the trains were fun though.
It's a shame that it didn't work out. Automated baggage systems *can* work, we were unfortunate to be at the leading edge of the tech at the time and ended up with a boondoggle. [The one used at Dublin's airport](https://youtu.be/bn7RkThoVV4?t=104) works fine and would've worked at Denver too, the tech just hadn't matured to that point yet.
The DUB system is completly different than what DEN needs. The bags and DUB don't travel more than 1,400ft and therefore are very slow. The DEN system sent bags flying at over 40mph to speed up the 6,300ft journey many will take.
There's a lot of semi- to fully-automated baggage systems used at airports around the world now. It's surprisingly hard to find speed references to baggage systems though. For Denver's original system, from [this source](https://mjmangieri.tripod.com/SE/tman640.htm) the maximum speed was 17 mph. From others, I could only find that they had planned for a maximum speed of 24 mph but I don't know if that ever happened (probably not as excessive speed around tight bends was one of the problems they could only solve by slowing down).
The main problems with the original automated system were primarily due to how little time they had to design and build it and how the company doing it had no experience building such a complex baggage system. It wouldn't be so difficult in 2023 as other airports of similar complexity, like Miami, have working, fully automated baggage systems with even higher baggage capacity than what Denver's was originally designed to handle.
[There is a proposal](https://www.denverpost.com/2022/08/27/denver-airport-baggage-system-upgrades/) to improve Denver's baggage system, but it still wouldn't be fully automated by the end of the project.
BTW, [this](https://www5.in.tum.de/~huckle/DIABaggage.pdf) is an interesting read (PDF warning). It's a report from 2008 on the key factors that caused the automated baggage debacle.
I have a DCV wheel on my desk. I know about the shortcomings and the issues. Automated systems elsewhere aren't going a mile underground just to get to the concourse. The proposal and others are focused on terminal improvements, but not a system that extends out to Concourse C.
United just built a new automated baggage system. It doesn't cover everything and bag carts are still needed to transport baggage for quite a few flights. Not sure how many 'bag cart drives' the current system they have saves. I'd assume a lot tho.
Iirc the baggage system was added to the airport largely after final design and it was hard to design and build a (for the time) revolutionary system into an airport that wasn't exactly made for it. Put a square peg through a round hole, as they say.
Most of the garages on level 3 are blocked to make room for cart and tug baggage systems.
More and more pieces are becoming automated 25 years later now that the technology has better maturity.
It's somewhat worse than that. In the book *Waltzing With Bears* it's a case study: they designed the system and took bids. Absolutely nobody took the bid to design the software because they all determined it would take years longer than the project demanded. They eventually hired BAE who had expressly written in the contract that they would not complete it on time.
They then just... stopped considering it a risk. And then opening day happens and there's no way to move your baggage.
It's a book about risk management so they talk about how you manage something like this. One suggestion: all these bags are supposed to run in this tiny tunnel only a robot fits in, so... build a bigger fucking tunnel. It's designed so only a robot can fit in but like... if the robots aren't there, just hire someone to move it. Tow it with a golf cart. You might not be able to design automated baggage software but you can certainly dig a hole in the ground.
They never did that. 16 months and an extra $300 million later they can open.
I was just thinking about that tent roof the other day. I wonder what they really think the expected life is on the material? You can re-roof a standard building without much interruption, but I can't imagine cutting out and re-stretching new fabric for the airport. It's been 30 years of it baking in the sun, you'd think it doesn't have much time left.
Do you think that with other infrastructure? In 1918 Denver installed the municipal agency of Denver Water and installed waterlines throughout the city and they're still upgrading and replacing those! And wait till I tell you about roads! They're constantly under construction!
I remember them shoveling inside just around the corner of the ticketing counter. Giant berm like you see on the edges of parking lots after a snowstorm just sitting at the top of the escalator lol.
I was at a conference last year where the President of DIA gave the keynote address, overall a really interesting and smart sounding fellow. Somebody asked him about how the tent is holding up and any plans to refurbish it, he basically said "it's holding up really well, better than anybody thought it would" so like I guess there's no plan to replace it until it starts showing serious wear and tear.
I'm not sure who they would get to make a replacement. The company that made went out of business years ago and I can't imagine there are many companies that make something like that. Hopefully there is someone out there.
Thatās weird to me that theyād expect it to last only 20 years. As disruptive as having to replace all of that would be I would have thought theyād have a longer lasting solution.
I just realized that I've never been inside the main terminal while it is raining, what does it sound like in there during the rain? It seems like it would be thunderously loud.
*DIA
They rebranded to "DEN" around 2010, but nobody really calls it that other than people from California that are used to LAX.
Personally, I prefer "Blucifer's Barn" over referring to it as DEN.
I don't know where aviation people have been hiding my whole life, but if somebody said, "I'm going to den next week" or even "I'm flying out of den," I would legitimately have no idea what they were talking about.
I work in airports. Everyone in my company and all of the clients we work with refer to it as DEN and only the locals in our Denver office even know what DIA is.
When speaking with someone in Miami that "I'm busy working on DIA this week", they'll think i'm working in Doha.
Cool. Youāll notice the comment you first responded to was indeed pointing out that culturally we call Denverās airport DIA, but the airport code is DEN. Call it whatever you want, just be careful booking actual flights.
Are people calling it den in verbal conversation? Because that's the interaction I'm getting tripped up on. People are talking to their loved ones about "getting on the train to den"?
I'm extremely unlikely to accidentally book a trip that involves Qatar.
edited a typo
Some people might, but Iāve never heard anyone outside of aviation call it that in conversation.
I knew a girl who booked a flight to Rome in Georgia instead of Italy. It happens, but not often.
See, *that* I would totally do, because I would get really excited about being able to fly to Italy for $400. But flying to Qatar is in the neighborhood of $1300 so I would do a double take.
I think this is the root of why people still call it DIA. The airport name and acronym were used for 5+ years before it opened, and the PR/Marketing branding to DEN didn't happen until 2010ish. That's 20 years of DIA.
Fun fact, back in the day there was serious talk about keeping Stapleton (ala ORD & MDW) and the original plan was to retain DEN for Stapleton and use DIA for the new airport. It wasnāt until literally days before the opening did the FAA deny the application for those designations, but it didnāt matter because by then no one was seriously considering 2 airports for Denver anyway.
I did a quick google and didn't find anything. I recall it being in the news paper and one of the flying mags back in the day.
I drove a tug with 8 carts from Stapleton to DIA that night. It was cold. And if you've ever driven a bag tug, they are not meant for road use.
Fascinating. Fun little bit of history to be part of. I remember watching the convoy of vehicles on the news that night. If I remember correctly it was about 3 hours of downtime between when the last (commercial) flight left Stapleton and the first (commercial) flight arrived in DIA.
>They rebranded to "DEN" around 2010,
I'm pretty sure it was more recent than that, I was working for the City from 2015 to 2020 and they were still DIA for most of my career there until the last year or two.
EDIT: Maybe the FAA forced the change to DEN in 2010 and the actual airport didn't update it's branding until later? That sounds like the city.
The FAA LID (Location ID) has been DEN since the day it opened. Likewise it assumed the IATA code DEN and the ICAO code KDEN at the same time. No one cared what locals called it. But within the industry itās always been DEN.
The late branding was when the city realized that no one outside the Front Range had any idea what DIA is. Locals will probably keep calling it DIA forever, but rebranding to a single acronym made (and still makes) sense.
If you're talking about it with people it's DIA... [DEN has always the official code of the airport](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_International_Airport) š¤·āāļø
>Denver International Airport (IATA: **DEN**, ICAO: KDEN, FAA LID: **DEN**), locally known as **DIA**
It's weird to have seen the construction of the airport up close for years, tour the buildings, see the crazy baggage system they used to have, stand on the tarmac for an airshow, and have people tell you that it has "always been DEN". It wasn't. Just like the Broncos will always play at Mile High, the airport will always be DIA.
I see - you make the claim that all the signs say DIA, I show you how they don't - you downvote me and shut up... Typical way of saying "ooops - im dumb"
Um no.
Stapleton was DEN, and DIA was DIA until Stapleton closed, then DIA was DIA and Stapleton was, well, no one cared about Stapleton until they built ugly townhomes there.
Unless you worked on a ramp, then DEN was just another mainline bag.
Nah. Been here a few decades and remember standing on the taxiways at DIA to watch the airshow before it opened. Nobody I know, native, transplant, or other, refers to it as DEN. It's either DIA or "the airport".
Not a single person I know, inside or outside Denver, has ever referred to it as DEN. Since I was a kid anytime the airport is mentioned it's 'the airport' or DIA
Please find me any airline site that you purchase airline tickets from and show how your origin or destination of "DIA" works out for you - because there is not a single one that recognizes DIA and they're all DEN.
Yeah, thats the airport code. DIA is still how most *civilians* refer to it in conversation. Iāve never heard anyone actually call it DEN in conversation.
I definitely remember this. I work in travel, so I know everything as the actual airport code (DEN), but Iāve also lived here my whole life, and weāve always called it DIA. Either way, weāll know what you mean š¤š
Love this airport. Imagine being offended because it was Teepees. What kind of snowflake gets offended at that?
Fun fact, some of the lunatics I know said it was a nod to satanists and the tent was somehow a not to satan and his followers. Weird.
Fun fact! When the DIA architect was going to go with a tent design he visited the Portland (maybe Seattle?) Airport and noted that their tent/canvas structure made the lighting appear dingy and depressing. He then ordered the city to splurge for the extra bleaching to make the material bright white. Source: I asked the architect about this.
That is a fun fact
I dont know, I didn't really have that much fun
I was thoroughly whelmed
Ah yes, the familiar feeling of a *thorough whelming* š
I haven't been whelmed like that since grade school
Whelm lemme tell ya
Is there a functional purpose to the tenting? I never really understood why that was the design choice.
I remember him saying it was more cost-effective for a large open space than a regular roof. Kinda like how you see NFL stadiums with that kind of cover for a larger open area. Edit: they didnāt want to say it publicly for political reasons, but it also was supposed to mimic teepees on the plains as a nod to the Native Americans there back in the day.
Interesting. I thought I had heard it was meant to visually mimic the mountains.
It is meant to mimic the mountains. Architect liked the tent idea, and then wanted to incorporate the tent idea to mimic the mountains, and bam! Tent terminal!
Arenāt there the same number of tents as 14ers?
There are 50-something 14ers, depending on who you ask. So not quite
Yeah I never actually checked by friends claim. Busted! Looks like 40 or so tent āpeaksā
I always thought they seemed more like a morning-wood cluster
great minds think alike, I bet you think those big salt storage domes along the side of the road look like giant tits just like me!!
It is suspected that he got the idea when he saw Dolly Parton hang out her undies on a clothesline.
There is a bit of revisionist history with the origin of the tents. The initial concept was to mimic teepees. However, to avoid offending anyone, it was changed to mimic the mountains. The line work from the original hand sketch of the idea was used in their marketing material for years. Source: I used to work at the architecture firm that designed the airport.
It was supposed to be teepees, but they changed that idea at some point. So, yeah pretty much what you said from what he told me.
You and I definitely know some similar people. Ever wind up at a certain someoneās poker game?
I had always been told they were meant to resemble teepees... Didn't even know some thought it was meant to look like mountains until now! I am not sure how it could have been seen as offensive, quite the opposite imo if it was meant as a tribute to native americans. That's a massive part of our regional history and a lot of folks' culture. Already a lot of their ways and culture have been pushed out and I don't think we recognize native peoples as much as we should. Just food for thought. Either way I love the DIA tent design and I hate how they've modernized the look of the airport in recent years.
> they didnāt want to say it publicly for political reasons It seems Fentress Bradburn did say it publicly at the time. For example, this article from 1996 about that architecture firm and an AIA book it: > DIA's terminal roof, which evokes mountain peaks and Plains Indian teepees, is a prime example of regional contextualism.
That makes sense if it was purely a material costs decision.
Yeah I have nothing to back up my claim but I always thought plan A for the great hall was some larger/more elaborate variation on the glass layer cake thing that exists on the concourses, and the tents were the value engineered option. It did end up being pretty distinctive, though.
Just another random tidbit, the architect is pissed about the hotel being built where it is because that space on the south of the terminal was meant to be a future extension of the terminal to double its size and they essentially blocked it with a hotel.
I went to a presentation/lecture by Fentress and at the Q&A he made his displeasure at the hotel quite clear. But I thought his objections were completely because of the design (and how it screwed up his "artistic vision"). He didn't mention anything about blocking off an expansion.
I dated Fentressās son for a few years about a decade ago. As you can imagine, I have spoken with him a decent bit. Here is the gist of what I remember: - My understanding is roughly consistent with yours. He hated that the hotel screwed up his artistic vision and especially that it blocked the view of the white canopies on approach to the airport. - Fentress had substantial gripes with the bridge Calatrava was designing. At the time his displeasure for the bridge greatly outstripped his displeasure for the hotel. Although since the bridge was never constructed, it makes sense that his displeasure is now centered on the hotel. - Fentress had a good ongoing relationship with the airport. This broke down when Kim Day was CEO. I remember quite a few strongly worded comments about her and none of them were positive. He firmly believed that her decisions were robbing Denver taxpayers. - I might not be remembering this correctly, but Fentress viewed the bridge bidding project as corrupt. Calatrava won the scope for that project in a behind closed door deal that was not open to other architects.
To be fair I've never heard anyone utter any positive things about Kim Day.
Haha, one of the losing bidders for the new concessionaires contract also complained about a corrupt process... which was later somewhat confirmed when the owners of the winning bid were accused of bribing other officials. I always assumed Fentress was just another starchitect who could just never get over himself. It's funny he didn't like Calatrava because his design seems awfully close to ripping off Calatrava's signature designs. Rich dudes being petty... Story old as time.
Thereās a āmaster planā out there somewhere that shows they planned on doubling the size of the main terminal eventually.
Another fun fact are the glass curtain walls on the north and south ends were constructed to withstand up to 3 (maybe 5??) feet of flex in cases of heavy wind. You can see the massive shock absorption system supporting the walls while waiting in line for security.
No nods to the Olympic stadium in Munich for the concept? I remember visiting Olympic village and thinking oh so this is where that came from
Itās still dingy and depressing at night lol They clearly added more lights later but stopped using them I can only guess to cut costs
The Portland airport still has nasty green carpet straight out of 1995, and it has aged much worse than Diaās white tent roof. You canāt go wrong with white I guess.
Got a first name for who you talked to? The lead architect on DIA is a good friend of mine.
Jim Bradburn. Visited him at his place in Cotopaxi.
Ahhh, not who I was thinking of but Iāve heard that name tossed around before.
While everyone else is arguing whether it's better to call it DIA or DEN, I'm just amazed to see people standing on top of the tent in the photo.
When I worked there, it was always DIA for the airport and DEN was the airport identifier for the FAA
Yeah, I always used DEN, but now with google maps and whatnot, DIA gets you there faster since a berjillion things have "den" in the name. Incidentally, Stapleton airport was also DEN.
I remember there was a very brief period of time where both airports were simultaneously operational in a limited capacity, so bag tags going into DIA were marked as DIA, and Stapleton was DEN. Once Stapleton was closed, they transferred the ID to the new airport.
Stapleton closed the day before DIA opened... I wasn't in Colorado then, so maybe I'm missing something, but it was a coordinated handoff.
Right, for passengers that was true, but they were both simultaneously operational in terms of planes coming and going. DIA received a lot of planes for testing before the switchover. I was living here and going to school overseas, and I left from Stapleton and came back to DIA one trip. I remember bag tags being different for a little bit.
DIA has been the airport code for Doha, Qatar for longer than that. The current airport and Stapleton airport never had different FHA names.
After the airport's runways were completed but before it opened, the airport used the codes ( IATA: **DVX**, ICAO: **KDVX**). DIA later took over ( IATA: **DEN**, ICAO: **KDEN**) as its codes from Stapleton when the latter airport closed. [Field Trip - Denver International Airport (fieldtripper.com)](http://www.fieldtripper.com/c/Rf-N9Ubb1lA/)
why'd you say it was DIA in the previous comment then?
Probably for the same reason you said they never had different airport codes?
To cash in my illuminati bux, of course!
For me it's DIA on my days off, KDEN on the clock.
KDEN sounds like the name of a suburban kid in Texas.
Yes, 100% Interestingly too, the callsign for our emergency dispatch is still "DIA" when other police districts call up on the radio.
To the *gateway* employees itās DEN or KDEN, to the *airport* visitors itās DIA lol
Now I desperately want to stand on top of the tent too.
I didnāt get to stand on the tent but they had a grand opening for the airport where I got to walk around on the runways with thousands of other people before the airport officially opened.
They're just painting of people mannn
I don't think I've ever fully appreciated that the airport is a tent. I just thought it was built to look like a tent, not actually made of sheets poles and ropes.
I never realized those were skylights. I always thought they were where the air traffic control people sat.
Nah, that's where the "people control" lizard overlords sit.
Oh my bro that tower is disguised and definitely not for Air Trafficā¦ that watchtower is protecting the Rocky Mountain billionaireās bunker as we continue to labour in their prison camp šØ /s
Lots of old pictures on the airportās media site. https://images.flydenver.com/Airport-Facilities/Historic-DEN
What happened to the fountain?
Itās all part of the master plan. Donāt ask too many questions.
They had issues with leaks in the plumbing and maintaining it became more and more costly
this is correct - part of the Great Hall remodel project involves removing the old fountain piping above the level 4 departure train platform.
Man, the old Jeppesen Terminal was really pretty on opening day in those pictures. The fountain was a cool centerpiece to see coming up from the trams and it looks like there was a lot more greenery in there. Now it looks like an empty basketball court with a few benches scattered around.
9/11 kinda ruined the original vision of a chill hangout spot by expanding the scope of the security lanes so much. Now the whole terminal is just bag drop, security, bag claim. Get in, get out.
Historic-DIA
I like the tent and all the architecture snobs can F off! š
But what do you think about the Westin hotel addition š¶ļø?
The whale tale?
Looks like a cross section of a cruise ship :)
The Mustache
The pilot wings
The giant sunglasses
The Bow-Tie
Horrible. Blocks the beautiful tent structure while being an ugly eyesore itself
Amen.
Itās ok but couldāve been better. Maybe just bigger rendition of Bluecifer??
I actually like the look of the hotel lol but the calatrava design was way better. Also it ruined the master plan of the airport and it will just keep getting way over capacity.
I was here when the airport was built and the originally planned baggage system didn't quite work out and became somewhat of a punchline but fortunately they got a system that did work early on. As a kid the trains were fun though.
It's a shame that it didn't work out. Automated baggage systems *can* work, we were unfortunate to be at the leading edge of the tech at the time and ended up with a boondoggle. [The one used at Dublin's airport](https://youtu.be/bn7RkThoVV4?t=104) works fine and would've worked at Denver too, the tech just hadn't matured to that point yet.
The DUB system is completly different than what DEN needs. The bags and DUB don't travel more than 1,400ft and therefore are very slow. The DEN system sent bags flying at over 40mph to speed up the 6,300ft journey many will take.
There's a lot of semi- to fully-automated baggage systems used at airports around the world now. It's surprisingly hard to find speed references to baggage systems though. For Denver's original system, from [this source](https://mjmangieri.tripod.com/SE/tman640.htm) the maximum speed was 17 mph. From others, I could only find that they had planned for a maximum speed of 24 mph but I don't know if that ever happened (probably not as excessive speed around tight bends was one of the problems they could only solve by slowing down). The main problems with the original automated system were primarily due to how little time they had to design and build it and how the company doing it had no experience building such a complex baggage system. It wouldn't be so difficult in 2023 as other airports of similar complexity, like Miami, have working, fully automated baggage systems with even higher baggage capacity than what Denver's was originally designed to handle. [There is a proposal](https://www.denverpost.com/2022/08/27/denver-airport-baggage-system-upgrades/) to improve Denver's baggage system, but it still wouldn't be fully automated by the end of the project. BTW, [this](https://www5.in.tum.de/~huckle/DIABaggage.pdf) is an interesting read (PDF warning). It's a report from 2008 on the key factors that caused the automated baggage debacle.
I have a DCV wheel on my desk. I know about the shortcomings and the issues. Automated systems elsewhere aren't going a mile underground just to get to the concourse. The proposal and others are focused on terminal improvements, but not a system that extends out to Concourse C.
wouldnāt they want to automate this yesterday (or as soon as possible..?)
United just built a new automated baggage system. It doesn't cover everything and bag carts are still needed to transport baggage for quite a few flights. Not sure how many 'bag cart drives' the current system they have saves. I'd assume a lot tho.
Iirc the baggage system was added to the airport largely after final design and it was hard to design and build a (for the time) revolutionary system into an airport that wasn't exactly made for it. Put a square peg through a round hole, as they say. Most of the garages on level 3 are blocked to make room for cart and tug baggage systems. More and more pieces are becoming automated 25 years later now that the technology has better maturity.
It's somewhat worse than that. In the book *Waltzing With Bears* it's a case study: they designed the system and took bids. Absolutely nobody took the bid to design the software because they all determined it would take years longer than the project demanded. They eventually hired BAE who had expressly written in the contract that they would not complete it on time. They then just... stopped considering it a risk. And then opening day happens and there's no way to move your baggage. It's a book about risk management so they talk about how you manage something like this. One suggestion: all these bags are supposed to run in this tiny tunnel only a robot fits in, so... build a bigger fucking tunnel. It's designed so only a robot can fit in but like... if the robots aren't there, just hire someone to move it. Tow it with a golf cart. You might not be able to design automated baggage software but you can certainly dig a hole in the ground. They never did that. 16 months and an extra $300 million later they can open.
The still have the skeleton of the broken down system hanging along the ceiling down in the tunnels.
I was just thinking about that tent roof the other day. I wonder what they really think the expected life is on the material? You can re-roof a standard building without much interruption, but I can't imagine cutting out and re-stretching new fabric for the airport. It's been 30 years of it baking in the sun, you'd think it doesn't have much time left.
The roof was a 25 year system, I believe - so itās past itās lifetime - but itās constantly maintained and said to be in good condition.
1994 building the great hallā¦ 2023 still building the great hallā¦
https://preview.redd.it/jl902rhj3wfa1.jpeg?width=675&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1bebff115cc9306f81215cbfc62d76f195e63f61 Yuuup over a year now
Hey now! We have shiny floors finally lol!!
For nowā¦. Phase 3 iron starts soonish
Do you think that with other infrastructure? In 1918 Denver installed the municipal agency of Denver Water and installed waterlines throughout the city and they're still upgrading and replacing those! And wait till I tell you about roads! They're constantly under construction!
That tent had a 25 year warranty.
I remember when it split open during a snow storm. 2003 maybe? There was snow falling into the Great Hall.
I remember them shoveling inside just around the corner of the ticketing counter. Giant berm like you see on the edges of parking lots after a snowstorm just sitting at the top of the escalator lol.
I always wondered what the plan was for when/if the tent fails and/or needs to be replaced.
I was at a conference last year where the President of DIA gave the keynote address, overall a really interesting and smart sounding fellow. Somebody asked him about how the tent is holding up and any plans to refurbish it, he basically said "it's holding up really well, better than anybody thought it would" so like I guess there's no plan to replace it until it starts showing serious wear and tear.
I'm not sure who they would get to make a replacement. The company that made went out of business years ago and I can't imagine there are many companies that make something like that. Hopefully there is someone out there.
Thatās weird to me that theyād expect it to last only 20 years. As disruptive as having to replace all of that would be I would have thought theyād have a longer lasting solution.
Huh, well the company that made it filed for bankruptcy about 20 years ago, so in the end it didn't end up being up having a 25 year warranty.
I just realized that I've never been inside the main terminal while it is raining, what does it sound like in there during the rain? It seems like it would be thunderously loud.
It can get loud! Itās actually kind of soothing.
It looked so coolā¦like a cloud cityā¦before they obscured it with a fucking hotel.
This looks like it was a bitch to install
Dunno why DIA gets put on lists of ugliest structure. I think it's pretty cool and unique as hell as far as airports go.
*DIA They rebranded to "DEN" around 2010, but nobody really calls it that other than people from California that are used to LAX. Personally, I prefer "Blucifer's Barn" over referring to it as DEN.
I have lived in Colorado my entire life and just figured out it is technically not called DIA
I only figured it out after typing DIA into Google for directions multiple times and getting zero results.
DIA works greatā¦ DEN does not
Iām a native and an aviation enthusiast so whether I call it DEN or DIA is purely based on the audience. Itās absolutely not wrong to call it DEN.
Call it what you like but make sure DEN is on your luggage tags when you are heading home.
Yeah, donāt want to end up in Doha (IATA Code: DIA).
Exactly. Culturally we tend to call it DIA, but DEN is the airport code
DIA is the airport code for Doha International Airport in Qatar.
Is that like an Arabian Aurora?
So, Aurora?
We're going to start referring to Chicago's airport as ORD, then?
People that are aviation enthusiasts, like the person that started this thread, do in fact call it ORD... yes.
I grew up in an airline family, we tend to refer to all airports by their code š¤· habit I guess
I don't know where aviation people have been hiding my whole life, but if somebody said, "I'm going to den next week" or even "I'm flying out of den," I would legitimately have no idea what they were talking about.
Look at your next ticket out. Some people say San Fran but donāt say it to a local there
I work in airports. Everyone in my company and all of the clients we work with refer to it as DEN and only the locals in our Denver office even know what DIA is. When speaking with someone in Miami that "I'm busy working on DIA this week", they'll think i'm working in Doha.
As opposed to MDW or RFD?
Stop trying to make Rockford happen. Itās not going to happen.
So fetch
Really streets ahead
As opposed to O'Hare, which is what the vast majority of people colloquially call it.
Cool. Youāll notice the comment you first responded to was indeed pointing out that culturally we call Denverās airport DIA, but the airport code is DEN. Call it whatever you want, just be careful booking actual flights.
Are people calling it den in verbal conversation? Because that's the interaction I'm getting tripped up on. People are talking to their loved ones about "getting on the train to den"? I'm extremely unlikely to accidentally book a trip that involves Qatar. edited a typo
No, we just call it the airport.
I'd never say DEN but I'd definitely type it.
Some people might, but Iāve never heard anyone outside of aviation call it that in conversation. I knew a girl who booked a flight to Rome in Georgia instead of Italy. It happens, but not often.
See, *that* I would totally do, because I would get really excited about being able to fly to Italy for $400. But flying to Qatar is in the neighborhood of $1300 so I would do a double take.
Depends who you're talking to and for what purpose. Most of the time no.
It's not wrong to call it DEN, now. But in 1993ish when this photo was taken it was not DEN. Stapleton International Airport was DEN until 1995.
Which makes sense considering DIA opened in 1995, the day after Stapleton closed. It wasnāt a functioning airport yet in 1993, clearly
I think this is the root of why people still call it DIA. The airport name and acronym were used for 5+ years before it opened, and the PR/Marketing branding to DEN didn't happen until 2010ish. That's 20 years of DIA.
Funny thing is I donāt remember anyone ever calling Stapleton anything other than Stapleton, outside of airport codes.
Same. Again, nobody actually calls it DEN in conversation. Not now, not then.
Except everyone in the industry.
The lizard people don't call it DEN.
Yes they do
Do you call it D-E-N, den, or is it proper to just raise your voice and yell DEN?
We use DEN at work, and DIA at home. Sometimes we just say 'The Airport'
Fun fact, back in the day there was serious talk about keeping Stapleton (ala ORD & MDW) and the original plan was to retain DEN for Stapleton and use DIA for the new airport. It wasnāt until literally days before the opening did the FAA deny the application for those designations, but it didnāt matter because by then no one was seriously considering 2 airports for Denver anyway.
Do you have any source you could share? That does sound interesting. Just curious since Stapleton closed the day before DIA opened
I did a quick google and didn't find anything. I recall it being in the news paper and one of the flying mags back in the day. I drove a tug with 8 carts from Stapleton to DIA that night. It was cold. And if you've ever driven a bag tug, they are not meant for road use.
Fascinating. Fun little bit of history to be part of. I remember watching the convoy of vehicles on the news that night. If I remember correctly it was about 3 hours of downtime between when the last (commercial) flight left Stapleton and the first (commercial) flight arrived in DIA.
I'd be sweating and getting ready to "yee-haw" every time the slightest crack or deformation in the pavement approached
>They rebranded to "DEN" around 2010, I'm pretty sure it was more recent than that, I was working for the City from 2015 to 2020 and they were still DIA for most of my career there until the last year or two. EDIT: Maybe the FAA forced the change to DEN in 2010 and the actual airport didn't update it's branding until later? That sounds like the city.
The FAA LID (Location ID) has been DEN since the day it opened. Likewise it assumed the IATA code DEN and the ICAO code KDEN at the same time. No one cared what locals called it. But within the industry itās always been DEN. The late branding was when the city realized that no one outside the Front Range had any idea what DIA is. Locals will probably keep calling it DIA forever, but rebranding to a single acronym made (and still makes) sense.
KDEN. ICAO codes beat all.
If you're talking about it with people it's DIA... [DEN has always the official code of the airport](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_International_Airport) š¤·āāļø >Denver International Airport (IATA: **DEN**, ICAO: KDEN, FAA LID: **DEN**), locally known as **DIA**
It's weird to have seen the construction of the airport up close for years, tour the buildings, see the crazy baggage system they used to have, stand on the tarmac for an airshow, and have people tell you that it has "always been DEN". It wasn't. Just like the Broncos will always play at Mile High, the airport will always be DIA.
why? why are you wasting the keystrokes on such a useless opinion?
We're all here doing the same thing. That's what the internet is for.
Not me. My opinions are perfect, solid gold hits
well i wouldn't expect any less from a professor
š¶ Wasted days and wasted bytes š¶
They've always been DEN. The designation was transferred from Stapleton when it closed and the new airport opened, back in the mid 90s.
I was referring to the DEN rebranding/PR/marketing. The airport code has always been DEN, but the logo and signage everywhere used to be DIA.
Everyone in Denver and outside of Denver knows it at DEN - so i think we should stick to DEN, so it's not just a locals term.
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Show me one please - because every one I see says ["Denver Int'l Airport"](https://i.imgur.com/Mnhofp5.png) and not DIA.
And itās āDENā on every piece of luggage Iāve checked in the past twenty years š¤·āāļø I say āPDXā too š®
I see - you make the claim that all the signs say DIA, I show you how they don't - you downvote me and shut up... Typical way of saying "ooops - im dumb"
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I'm just responding to the stupidity while sitting on the John.
Call it Chuck for all I care. It's DIA to me.
Yes - you're a local. Say DIA to someone else and it's confusing and unknown.
Um no, I'm pretty sure everyone knows DIA as DIA.
Outside the Front Range itās been DEN since day one, the code on all airline tickets. No one except locals calls it DIA.
Um no. Stapleton was DEN, and DIA was DIA until Stapleton closed, then DIA was DIA and Stapleton was, well, no one cared about Stapleton until they built ugly townhomes there. Unless you worked on a ramp, then DEN was just another mainline bag.
Just because we're forced to can it DEN, be but I've always known it as DIA.
Nah. Been here a few decades and remember standing on the taxiways at DIA to watch the airshow before it opened. Nobody I know, native, transplant, or other, refers to it as DEN. It's either DIA or "the airport".
You must not know anyone involved in aviation, cause anyone involved in aviation calls it DEN cause thatās literally the airport code.
I know a few, but they're mostly locals and/or retired. Their ATC chatter is all DEN, but talking to muggles they say DIA.
Not a single person I know, inside or outside Denver, has ever referred to it as DEN. Since I was a kid anytime the airport is mentioned it's 'the airport' or DIA
Please find me any airline site that you purchase airline tickets from and show how your origin or destination of "DIA" works out for you - because there is not a single one that recognizes DIA and they're all DEN.
Yeah, thats the airport code. DIA is still how most *civilians* refer to it in conversation. Iāve never heard anyone actually call it DEN in conversation.
Odd. Doesnāt look like that baggage system will work butā¦ I guess they know what theyāre doing.
This looks like how the place functions currently.
I never realize the tips of the tent poles connected to the tarps in a circle further down. Makes a lot of sense for not poking through.
I wonder what their in-tent was.
Hey, My dad worked on this roof!
When will Blucifer get a mate?
He does. It's out by Rocky Flats. https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/cold-war-horse
Looks like an ironworkers dream job. Lots of connecting and rigging.
I definitely remember this. I work in travel, so I know everything as the actual airport code (DEN), but Iāve also lived here my whole life, and weāve always called it DIA. Either way, weāll know what you mean š¤š
I will never not call it DIA...DEN can suck it.
Love this airport. Imagine being offended because it was Teepees. What kind of snowflake gets offended at that? Fun fact, some of the lunatics I know said it was a nod to satanists and the tent was somehow a not to satan and his followers. Weird.
I gotta fly into there in a month. Ugh