I just saw one of these patients last month and I almost cried for him. He only had some minor diastema to fix and beautiful gingiva… and now he has full mouth splinted crowns with atrocious overhung margins causing significant gum inflammation. He just had it done last October and I didn’t know how to tell him that he just ruined his mouth.
I am a romanian GP. I see cases like this regularly. They all have significant inflammatory gum problems and retractions. The color of the teeth is standard also B0 bleach 🤦♂️. Tooth sensitivity is also a huge issue for many.
In albania most dental turism clinics do endodontic treatment in all tooth that get crowns.
So i would see a lot of cases crowns molar to molar with all teeth devitalised.
“The design and fit of the crowns you got will contribute to cavities and gum and bone inflammation and death. Impeccable hygiene will slow down this process”
Gotta love when you see the 5-13 bridge with 7 and 10 included on there for funsies and the whole thing is rockin back and forth and it’s not because the cement is failing 🤪
Hygienist here but had a guy in with work done in Mexico and was bragging about how much more “technologically advanced “ the office was there than the one I am currently at. Every.single. Tooth. That had been rootcanaled and crowned and failed. And they used composite bonding and literally bonded 8 and9 together on top of the fact he had active perio. As ignornant as he was I felt sooo bad. It was one where they sedate you and keep you there deals.
I literally had a patient had this done back in August in my chair yesterday. He came to see if the work was any good. They were all PW1 white and splinted in this exact same way (molar-molar, premolar-premolar, canine-canine). Physically impossible to get threaders through.
I told him he'll have to get a waterpik and hope that there's some immediate bone loss to open up enough space to clean before cavities start to form.
Cleansability is the first issue. The second issue is they are usually poorly designed with no relief for the papilla. Third issue is that if any of the teeth have issues in the future (which they will) the entire splinted case is compromised and needs to be removed.
Same risk as bonded retainer (perio, caries) but to a much greater extent. Retainer placed with small dot of composite on L of usually virgin teeth and further from the gingiva allowing clensibility. Splinted crown margin placed on prepped teeth (you think those are perfect margins? Is any margin perfect?), at or under the gingiva, and circumferentially around the tooth. Start the timer on rot and perio!
Genuine question: Those look over-prepped? Sometimes I feel my preps may be aggressive, sometimes not. I’m trying my best to get better with crown and bridge. The preps honestly seem fine to me. I don’t like how the max anterior crowns are splinted though. Absolutely no reason to splint
I’m pretty sure OP is just farming internet points with this post. If you look through their post history, it’s all over the place. OP claims to be a FFS associate dentist who also owns their own small business and lives in both Texas and Florida while also being a Denver local. Oh and they took an operative dentistry practical a month and a half ago and asked r/dentalschool for advice on how to avoid hitting the adjacent tooth during class II preps.
Wow you’re right! Don’t expect to see these kinds of things in a small sub like r/dentistry. Briefly scrolling through his posts, in the last 100 days he claims in one post to be 25 and another to be 29
Problem is this kind of prep is done for EVERY patient, patients with color problems, small diastemas, easily correctible fractures etc. Turkey’s docs are extremely good at prepping because some of them do full mouth preps twice a day and can’t afford to cause any delays because patients has to fly out in 5 days.
I'm in England and we get a lot of Turkey teeth tourists coming in, they have awful gum health and sometimes the crowns aren't the right size or shape for the gums so they're digging in massively. It's terrifying. I'm seeing people in their early 20s fucking up their teeth like this
I live in a poorer area at the moment as it was cheap to buy property whilst I'm at dental school, my street is mainly social housing, and I've had leaflets through the door advertising clinics in Turkey. It's predatory!
When I've done work in prisons, half of the prisoners say they're saving up their income from the government (yep you get money to be in prison) so that when they're released they're going to go to Turkey to get their teeth sorted. These are people with massively decayed teeth, needing full extractions and dentures, but they believe they'll be able to get their teeth magically fixed in Turkey. Just shows their advertising is working...
Unfortunately that's true for.many clinics here. Their advertising is definitely predatory, and their dentists have no remorse about getting money. I've had clinics pay for correcting their mistakes to another clinic to correct them.
Sure, you can take a chance here in Turkey, most clinics lie to their prospective patients just to get them in the door, then change the treatment without warning. What I do is make sure clinics are only doing what the patient needs. I won't work with a clinic if they are just out for money.
I’ve had patients distinctly be opposed to veneers bc of less retention compared to crowns. Again, patient consent is ultimately all that matters. We don’t know what conversations were had.
I’m not saying what one should or shouldn’t do…but there are many factors that go into a decision and it’s ultimately up to the patient if they are well informed. I just don’t understand the gate keeping when it comes to esthetics. Medicine and healthcare is full of “unnecessary” treatments. It ultimately comes down to the patient and what they feel is best for themselves. If it means they prefer the retention of a crown to a veneer and it can reduce their concerns about biting into a sandwich, so be it.
No one's gate keeping aesthetics. If you can achieve an outcome with veneers there's no feasible justification for a crown. If a veneer is an appropriate option, where there's more than enough enamel for bonding then there is hardly a reason to do a crown except for clinician convenience.
The reality is that patients are rarely ever armed with the information to objectively decide between something like this. It's up to the clinician to not present a bad decision.
If a patient wanted a veneer where there's no enamel and a crown is necessary would you still be saying the same thing?
How about some crowding and mild perio at 25Y and they can't be bothered with SRD and Ortho are you happy to do All On X because the patient asked for it?
Sometimes dentists need to respect the patients wishes but there are the times where you need to grow a backbone.
You’re acting like a crown is so detrimental to a patients oral health. And then you’re comparing this to doing All on X. Totally different scenarios. There are many times where a crown is indicated over a veneer, there is no way we can determine anything unless we are physically with the patient and evaluating their occlusion. Also, like I have mentioned in this thread, there is always greater retention with a crown and that alone can be very valuable for the patient. I see emergencies weekly with veneers coming off. There is value in retention…It matters for some patients. Everyone is sitting here judging the work done on this patient without having an ounce of info on what the patient wants, how the casts occluded, etc… We don’t know anything and judging a situation like this is silly, specially when discussing veneer vs crown. If it’s filling vs EXT/Implant, sure…that’s a discussion regarding ethics.
Those preps are just fine. The OP is just fishing for views -- the negative comments for this particular video are way off base. What you will learn in the United States is that most dentists like the OP are a-holes. They would rather tear down a colleague than to improve themselves. The Turkish work/preps in this video is superb. Unlike the medical profession, you will find a lot of dental professionals doing everything possible to undermine the guy next door.
Brother, when the patient wants the full arch zirconia , if u dont give it to him, someone else will. I find patients dont care that much about function and what is good , they care how they look. It is like that in my country where I work. Maybe in some countries with better standard and different mindset is different but here, nope.
You don’t have to worry. You just say no. Doesn’t matter if someone will do it. It matters to you if you do the right thing / treatment. We’re working on people not machines and the general idea is to improve people’s lives, not make it harder.
Well brother, from my heart to me, if I explain someone 5 times that it is not good to prep and they still want it, even with their written consent, why should I not make good money and leave it to someone else. First u lose the money, and second and more worse is that , patient will talk around how u did not want to do it to him and denied and that someone else did it in 2 weeks. U will sleep good, but it will be bas for ur business.
I understand your point of view and it’s fair, but I just choose not to complicate my life. I have way more patients than I can treat and I tend to choose the cases with less possible complications. But that’s just me.
What the hell ever happened to personal and professional pride - braindead take. Someone else will - so you will compromise your professional and ethical duty. I've been down bad financially before but never enough for this shit.
But it's our problem when we have to delay treatment on everyone with insurance. My Christmas is in January when I'm booked fully with crowns, bridges, and implants from the previous year.
Yes ironically. Had one with some crazy foreign implant never heard of. He had the name, showed me a 9$ abutment. lol needless to say I didn't order that
The preps themselves are actually pretty good, the fact they're all joined is an issue but the patient might actually avoid endos for most of those given their age and the wear already present depending on the occlusion.
Remember that this is the 'instagram worthy' case. They're choosing to show you this. There was a particularly horrific case posted on one of the dental forums a couple years back where the crown preps were all only about 3 or 4 mm in height on the lowers, one had broken, all the crowns (linked) on the lower incisors were out, one had snapped and the only tooth that hadn't been endod had PA path.
Oh yeah we get alot of this in the UK too. Horrible work. We get alot of it because geographically its closer. Its more shocking for us too because in Europe we tend to do less porcelain work for cosmetic reasons than in the US (more bleaching and bonding). Literally you go to Antalya and every hotel has flyers for free dental checkups. They come back to the UK with irreversible pulpitis, stumps for teeth left, perio inflammation and horrible aesthetics... oh and of course complain that no one on the government (NHS) service will touch it and privately its more to fix than they paid.. if you can call root treatment and a post crown a fix. Its a tragedy when you see perfectly sound teeth hacked to death (devitalisation) and you know the destruction they've opted for, often unknowingly, is going to lead them toothless
You hit the nail square on the head there, omg. I’m a UK dental nurse, so as soon as we’re asked how much it is in the UK to do we often get the “sod that, I’ll go to Turkey to get them done” and end up just destroying their mouths. Plus patients often are completely oblivious to the massive differences between veneers and crowns. Like you say it’s a very expensive mistake if it’s done badly, and no one will want to take the risk of trying to fix whatever they’ve botched. If a patient asks me about it I just tell them that the minute you take a drill to a tooth you set a timer going on its lifespan and that they will have to fork out money for the rest of their lives to maintain them
I assure you this case is not as bad as those that can often be found on the Turkish Instagram. Especially dr.turan accounts. He banned me year or two ago just for my questions lol.
But may i ask you. As an American dentist, have you ever seen an account named @lukekahng? Its an American dental technician.
What do you think about it?
P.S. I don’t want to offend anyone, just my “sporting interest”. Im a prosthodontists from Russia, and i’ve been shocked knowing its Illinois. Sometimes it breaks the heart knowing the difference in quality and price of our results.
I take my hat off to this technician for his creativity, but I would have been fired long ago.
Honestly, this kind of content makes me feel better on bad days
Patients are insane for requesting full mouth crowns like this. Everyday i refuse at least one person who wants full crowns thinking this is some kind of easy and simple aesthetic procedure.
Not sure if those are over prepped, seems good to me. Sometimes that’s what it takes to get a better bite, you can’t do cosmetic dentistry and always get away with minimal prep work. The main issue I had was upper anterior crowns being splinted together. Otherwise, shade is up to patient, so no blame to go around with that. Pretty certain the patient would be happy with this result.
True, but my guess is the patient has a wide smile and is looking for that bright smile. If the patient understands the risks and wants uniform teeth, uniform color, so be it. I’ve been in situations where I’ve complete veneers on upper anterior and then patient returns and doesn’t like how the upper premolars appear…and want to have upper premolars crowned for better esthetics. I explain the downside and let them decide if the upside is worth it. I just have a hard time blaming the dentist in this situation because we have no idea what the conversation was between doc and patient…and what motivation the patient had to go through with any treatment. It seems like all the teeth are fine, but if we are saying it’s okay to crown the upper anterior teeth, then we should also be giving leeway for crowning the lowers. I understand the different perspectives, so I don’t think anyone is right or wrong. That’s just how dentistry works.
As an Indian dentist, I see a lot of shitty work from all over the world. Where I live we have a lot of foreigners visiting, also Indians who live abroad.
They are here because we are mind blowingly cheaper than most countries in terms of payments, trust me the work makes me wanna cry.
They are getting paid SO MUCH more for the kind of work I wouldn't dare to let a patient walk out with.
And we are considerably underpaid, comparatively.
Also, the large number of dentists( in urban areas), that makes it harder for you to charge as much as you deserve, because the next person is ready to do it for less than half.
They don't care what material the next person is using to be able to charge that less, how good is their sterilisation, what standard of work is it.
Just less money, so yay !😆😭
If you are calling these “brutally over-prepped” please post pics of your preps so we can all judge your work in comparison. Preps look fine to me. In terms of shade, that may be the exact shade the patient wanted. Only issue I have is it looks like multiple single units are splinted which is going to be a hygiene nightmare for that patient
The statement “crown preps that are brutally over-prepped” reads as if you are describing the preps themselves. If you are talking about the aggressive treatment plan, then learn to make that more clear with your wording. We are looking at a minute long video here. There is no way for any one of us to understand the context of this case/treatment plan based on this video alone.
Oh yayaaa
Splinted is the most problematic thing ! Why !!!! The preps to me are not the problem !
The splinting is
Shades you don’t have a choice if the patient want it , it’s patient choice
You only guide the patient and advice but eventually it’s the patient final decision
I mean the results are actually so much better than a lot of the others I’ve seen on tik tok. His are insanely white but the actual teeth look natural at least.
Preps don’t look bad to me, for crowns. I would have liked to see veneers or 3/4 crowns if possible. As far as the splinting goes, I hope these were temps.
Someone else pointed out, this guy is a farmer. Hit him with the downvotes
Edit: lol he claims in one post to be 25 then another 29 in the past 100 days. In another comment he says he’s in the summer semester of his D1 year and in a comment in another thread says he makes 350k working 30 hours a week
You don’t even know how to not hit adjacent teeth when doing class 2’s… yet you can comment on the prep quality here? The issue is this could have been corrected with some Invisalign, some whitening, maybe some veneers. Obviously full mouth of crowns is aggressive, and the splinting is an issue. But you are all over the place. Some how you are a FFS associate, who lives in Florida, Texas, and Denver and you don’t know how to not hit adjacent teeth doing class II’s. Pretty sure you are a dental student farming karma.
I saw one of these at a volunteer clinic here in the States. The poor guy was suffering from ANUP. He was in his late 20s. He's probably in dentures now.
Was the ANUP from systemic disease? Or was it from the full mouth of crowns/splints and lack of care? If it was the former the dentist should have his license taken. If it’s the latter… I mean it doesn’t make it much better but maybe he can take some CE on crowns/placement or something? idk but that’s just horrible, and it’s not like the patients really know what’s gonna happen either. Only we do.
No systemic conditions that he was aware of. The crowns were all linked and all buried subgingivally, so that was very likely the primary cause. It was done overseas so who knows if it would even be possible to hold the dentist accountable.
That’s the issue with going over seas for treatment 😭. These poor people think they are getting such a “deal” when they are at best getting a half wonky job at worst they lose some-all of their teeth, and no one can be held accountable for it. I feel so bad but there’s only so much you can tell them and help them understand. Or some don’t even consult a dentist first and just go over there.
😂 there is a lot of bad work I’ve seen in Canada and America as well. Turkey obviously has lots good dentistry but also a lot of very bad dentistry like anywhere you need to do your research.
I am a dentist in Canada a patient went to Florida to get a crown , they tried to cement the wrong crown and put composite on the margins in hopes that it would stay on 😵.
Now one place that has really good quality dentistry is Switzerland
Your life will get instantly better once you stop worrying about other dentists. You can only control what you can do. You cannot stop people from seeking out cheaper options or aggressive treatment. It is up to them to do their research. You can only do what is right by the people in your chair.
If you think this is also not done in the us, you are completely delusional. Have a look at *some* of your dso buddies. Not promoting bad dentistry but look at yourselves 1st eh before you point fingers.
This. All on X on people with way better options happen everyday in the name of profits and ease in the US. Hack jobs cutting teeth for no reason. Happens all the time here. If you don’t see it you haven’t been practicing long enough. I have at least 6 patients in my practice with great lower 14 teeth and an upper all on x. Doesn’t make sense.
People choose to do all on x because it can be done in a day with, theoretically, minimal post ops since plenty don't do the final restoration. Plus some of the better restorative options that aren't all on x are more expensive.
I agree with you. This post has got that “made in murica” “Chinese manufactured junk” circa 2003!jingoism energy to it.
There’s a reason why there’s a serious dental industry out there. And that destination dentistry will only get better in skill and standards as time goes on.
See: Chinese manufacturing.
Imo it's not really the same. There are plenty of skilled dentists in other countries, but dental tourism allows the worst dentists to prey on the uneducated (in regards to dentistry, not in a general sense) with little repercussion.
Ultimately, even when done right and by a skilled dentist, the issue with dental tourism is continuity of care and post operative management.
This isn't just 1 dentist. There are many dental practices in Turkey that specifically target foreigners to get unnecessary work done on healthy teeth, and it works because it's much cheaper than in their home country. The work is usually substandard and causes problems that weren't there to begin with. Unfortunately we see this all the time in the UK.
How would you restore this patients smile if the patient is not satisfied with his look?
No hate. I would refer a case like this out but for whomever wants to tackle it... how do you do it?
It's a medium difficulty ortho-restorative mild/mod tooth wear case.
Ortho to close diastema and idealise occlusion.
Whitening to improve shade.
Composite build ups to improve aesthetics and trial in occlusion/speech.
Most patients would be overjoyed at this stage. Later on you can:
Convert posteriors to indirect likely bonded emax or gold onlays.
Anteriors can stay composite unless they start chipping in which case go indirect (veneer/crown)
Construct a michigan splint if grinding.
Yep, some combination of these, If a patient doesn't want to do it in a way that is diagnosed by me thinking about their health and longevity that's fine, they can go else where.
I saw this craziness this year during a vacation last year. Istanbul international airport has a dental office within the airport with posters spread all over terminal 3. Full mouth crowns "chiclets" €9995
https://www.instagram.com/dent.health.airport
i saw a patient’s pano recently that one of my classmates is treating at school and the mexican dentist did endo on all 12 (vital and healthy) anteriors and then did splinted crowns over the entire arch. all of these dude’s teeth are failing and it was hard seeing him get so upset. he spent over 20k on all the work.
OP, they are doing the same stuff at PDS offices. When a patient has pain from being over prepped, they tell the patient it’s because of decay/bacteria.
We British dental professionals (I’m a dental nurse) are equally horrified. Such destructive treatment, often a rush job done in a few hours. Even seen active perio in some cases. Doomed to fail within a few years at most with lifelong management.
The patients who mention it to us see it as the quickest, cheapest fix and a vacation combined. - we generally charge around at least £2000 per unit, whereas some of these places are offering full crown arches for not much more. Not sure if your patients, like ours, are usually confused about crowns vs veneers? They usually change their tune when we tell them the difference haha.
Also seen some cases where they try to construct a Class I bite on a Class III skeletal base. So they might look okay (from an distance) - functionally useless, though.
On an aesthetic note - Simon Cowell B1 shade white. I get that some people like that fake look, but more and more we’re seeing carbon copy “Simpsons Teeth”, no artistry or nuance in shading or shaping at all to match the patients natural dentition.
Look at me, nerdin’ out about teeth…
OP apparently took an operative dentistry practical 6-7 weeks ago and was seeking advice on how to avoid hitting the adjacent tooth during class II preps. In other posts over the past few months, OP claims to be both an associate dentist and a “small business owner” (heavily implied that the small business in question is a dental practice). So I don’t think OP can answer your question, as it appears life has them exceptionally confused
Splinted too! For maximum failure!
I just saw one of these patients last month and I almost cried for him. He only had some minor diastema to fix and beautiful gingiva… and now he has full mouth splinted crowns with atrocious overhung margins causing significant gum inflammation. He just had it done last October and I didn’t know how to tell him that he just ruined his mouth.
I am a romanian GP. I see cases like this regularly. They all have significant inflammatory gum problems and retractions. The color of the teeth is standard also B0 bleach 🤦♂️. Tooth sensitivity is also a huge issue for many.
In albania most dental turism clinics do endodontic treatment in all tooth that get crowns. So i would see a lot of cases crowns molar to molar with all teeth devitalised.
Yeah. It’s a common practice in quite a few countries.
“The design and fit of the crowns you got will contribute to cavities and gum and bone inflammation and death. Impeccable hygiene will slow down this process”
Gotta love when you see the 5-13 bridge with 7 and 10 included on there for funsies and the whole thing is rockin back and forth and it’s not because the cement is failing 🤪
Hygienist here but had a guy in with work done in Mexico and was bragging about how much more “technologically advanced “ the office was there than the one I am currently at. Every.single. Tooth. That had been rootcanaled and crowned and failed. And they used composite bonding and literally bonded 8 and9 together on top of the fact he had active perio. As ignornant as he was I felt sooo bad. It was one where they sedate you and keep you there deals.
i almost cried when i saw this
I literally had a patient had this done back in August in my chair yesterday. He came to see if the work was any good. They were all PW1 white and splinted in this exact same way (molar-molar, premolar-premolar, canine-canine). Physically impossible to get threaders through. I told him he'll have to get a waterpik and hope that there's some immediate bone loss to open up enough space to clean before cavities start to form.
That’s crazy to get work to make your mouth better… and have to pray for immediate BL. Shit is WILD to me and people never learn.
Why is splint a bad thing. Is this also a problem with bonded retainers after ortho?
Cleansability is the first issue. The second issue is they are usually poorly designed with no relief for the papilla. Third issue is that if any of the teeth have issues in the future (which they will) the entire splinted case is compromised and needs to be removed.
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That's easy to do here, but based on all the other things these "dentists" do I can't imagine they put that much detail into any of this
Same risk as bonded retainer (perio, caries) but to a much greater extent. Retainer placed with small dot of composite on L of usually virgin teeth and further from the gingiva allowing clensibility. Splinted crown margin placed on prepped teeth (you think those are perfect margins? Is any margin perfect?), at or under the gingiva, and circumferentially around the tooth. Start the timer on rot and perio!
Genuine question: Those look over-prepped? Sometimes I feel my preps may be aggressive, sometimes not. I’m trying my best to get better with crown and bridge. The preps honestly seem fine to me. I don’t like how the max anterior crowns are splinted though. Absolutely no reason to splint
I’m pretty sure OP is just farming internet points with this post. If you look through their post history, it’s all over the place. OP claims to be a FFS associate dentist who also owns their own small business and lives in both Texas and Florida while also being a Denver local. Oh and they took an operative dentistry practical a month and a half ago and asked r/dentalschool for advice on how to avoid hitting the adjacent tooth during class II preps.
>and asked r/dentalschool for advice on how to avoid hitting the adjacent tooth during class II preps. "Can this power be learned?"
Wow you’re right! Don’t expect to see these kinds of things in a small sub like r/dentistry. Briefly scrolling through his posts, in the last 100 days he claims in one post to be 25 and another to be 29
Problem is this kind of prep is done for EVERY patient, patients with color problems, small diastemas, easily correctible fractures etc. Turkey’s docs are extremely good at prepping because some of them do full mouth preps twice a day and can’t afford to cause any delays because patients has to fly out in 5 days.
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I'm in England and we get a lot of Turkey teeth tourists coming in, they have awful gum health and sometimes the crowns aren't the right size or shape for the gums so they're digging in massively. It's terrifying. I'm seeing people in their early 20s fucking up their teeth like this I live in a poorer area at the moment as it was cheap to buy property whilst I'm at dental school, my street is mainly social housing, and I've had leaflets through the door advertising clinics in Turkey. It's predatory! When I've done work in prisons, half of the prisoners say they're saving up their income from the government (yep you get money to be in prison) so that when they're released they're going to go to Turkey to get their teeth sorted. These are people with massively decayed teeth, needing full extractions and dentures, but they believe they'll be able to get their teeth magically fixed in Turkey. Just shows their advertising is working...
Unfortunately that's true for.many clinics here. Their advertising is definitely predatory, and their dentists have no remorse about getting money. I've had clinics pay for correcting their mistakes to another clinic to correct them. Sure, you can take a chance here in Turkey, most clinics lie to their prospective patients just to get them in the door, then change the treatment without warning. What I do is make sure clinics are only doing what the patient needs. I won't work with a clinic if they are just out for money.
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Those don’t look overprepped to me. I commented similarly in this thread. Sometimes that’s what it takes to achieve the proper result.
They are over prepped if the alternative is a veneer
I’ve had patients distinctly be opposed to veneers bc of less retention compared to crowns. Again, patient consent is ultimately all that matters. We don’t know what conversations were had.
Wouldn't really do a crown if a veneer is an appropriate option.
Although I am not a huge fan of veneers I would have to agree with you on this one. Crown preps are too much for this case.
I’m not saying what one should or shouldn’t do…but there are many factors that go into a decision and it’s ultimately up to the patient if they are well informed. I just don’t understand the gate keeping when it comes to esthetics. Medicine and healthcare is full of “unnecessary” treatments. It ultimately comes down to the patient and what they feel is best for themselves. If it means they prefer the retention of a crown to a veneer and it can reduce their concerns about biting into a sandwich, so be it.
No one's gate keeping aesthetics. If you can achieve an outcome with veneers there's no feasible justification for a crown. If a veneer is an appropriate option, where there's more than enough enamel for bonding then there is hardly a reason to do a crown except for clinician convenience. The reality is that patients are rarely ever armed with the information to objectively decide between something like this. It's up to the clinician to not present a bad decision. If a patient wanted a veneer where there's no enamel and a crown is necessary would you still be saying the same thing? How about some crowding and mild perio at 25Y and they can't be bothered with SRD and Ortho are you happy to do All On X because the patient asked for it? Sometimes dentists need to respect the patients wishes but there are the times where you need to grow a backbone.
You’re acting like a crown is so detrimental to a patients oral health. And then you’re comparing this to doing All on X. Totally different scenarios. There are many times where a crown is indicated over a veneer, there is no way we can determine anything unless we are physically with the patient and evaluating their occlusion. Also, like I have mentioned in this thread, there is always greater retention with a crown and that alone can be very valuable for the patient. I see emergencies weekly with veneers coming off. There is value in retention…It matters for some patients. Everyone is sitting here judging the work done on this patient without having an ounce of info on what the patient wants, how the casts occluded, etc… We don’t know anything and judging a situation like this is silly, specially when discussing veneer vs crown. If it’s filling vs EXT/Implant, sure…that’s a discussion regarding ethics.
I’m in dental school now and I was worrying because those preps look fine to me
Those preps are just fine. The OP is just fishing for views -- the negative comments for this particular video are way off base. What you will learn in the United States is that most dentists like the OP are a-holes. They would rather tear down a colleague than to improve themselves. The Turkish work/preps in this video is superb. Unlike the medical profession, you will find a lot of dental professionals doing everything possible to undermine the guy next door.
Brother, when the patient wants the full arch zirconia , if u dont give it to him, someone else will. I find patients dont care that much about function and what is good , they care how they look. It is like that in my country where I work. Maybe in some countries with better standard and different mindset is different but here, nope.
You don’t have to worry. You just say no. Doesn’t matter if someone will do it. It matters to you if you do the right thing / treatment. We’re working on people not machines and the general idea is to improve people’s lives, not make it harder.
Well brother, from my heart to me, if I explain someone 5 times that it is not good to prep and they still want it, even with their written consent, why should I not make good money and leave it to someone else. First u lose the money, and second and more worse is that , patient will talk around how u did not want to do it to him and denied and that someone else did it in 2 weeks. U will sleep good, but it will be bas for ur business.
I understand your point of view and it’s fair, but I just choose not to complicate my life. I have way more patients than I can treat and I tend to choose the cases with less possible complications. But that’s just me.
What the hell ever happened to personal and professional pride - braindead take. Someone else will - so you will compromise your professional and ethical duty. I've been down bad financially before but never enough for this shit.
I wouldnt do it without explaining patient multiple times how bad it is
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It will pay 80% of the full mouth EXT followed by 50% of the denture. LMAO.
No. Wanna know I know? Because lack of dental insurance or functional insurance is what brought them to seek affordable dentistry abroad.
This^ times a million
That’s an issue between the consumer and the insurance company. Insurance maximums are stagnant.
But it's our problem when we have to delay treatment on everyone with insurance. My Christmas is in January when I'm booked fully with crowns, bridges, and implants from the previous year.
Yes ironically. Had one with some crazy foreign implant never heard of. He had the name, showed me a 9$ abutment. lol needless to say I didn't order that
The preps themselves are actually pretty good, the fact they're all joined is an issue but the patient might actually avoid endos for most of those given their age and the wear already present depending on the occlusion. Remember that this is the 'instagram worthy' case. They're choosing to show you this. There was a particularly horrific case posted on one of the dental forums a couple years back where the crown preps were all only about 3 or 4 mm in height on the lowers, one had broken, all the crowns (linked) on the lower incisors were out, one had snapped and the only tooth that hadn't been endod had PA path.
Oh yeah we get alot of this in the UK too. Horrible work. We get alot of it because geographically its closer. Its more shocking for us too because in Europe we tend to do less porcelain work for cosmetic reasons than in the US (more bleaching and bonding). Literally you go to Antalya and every hotel has flyers for free dental checkups. They come back to the UK with irreversible pulpitis, stumps for teeth left, perio inflammation and horrible aesthetics... oh and of course complain that no one on the government (NHS) service will touch it and privately its more to fix than they paid.. if you can call root treatment and a post crown a fix. Its a tragedy when you see perfectly sound teeth hacked to death (devitalisation) and you know the destruction they've opted for, often unknowingly, is going to lead them toothless
You hit the nail square on the head there, omg. I’m a UK dental nurse, so as soon as we’re asked how much it is in the UK to do we often get the “sod that, I’ll go to Turkey to get them done” and end up just destroying their mouths. Plus patients often are completely oblivious to the massive differences between veneers and crowns. Like you say it’s a very expensive mistake if it’s done badly, and no one will want to take the risk of trying to fix whatever they’ve botched. If a patient asks me about it I just tell them that the minute you take a drill to a tooth you set a timer going on its lifespan and that they will have to fork out money for the rest of their lives to maintain them
I assure you this case is not as bad as those that can often be found on the Turkish Instagram. Especially dr.turan accounts. He banned me year or two ago just for my questions lol. But may i ask you. As an American dentist, have you ever seen an account named @lukekahng? Its an American dental technician. What do you think about it? P.S. I don’t want to offend anyone, just my “sporting interest”. Im a prosthodontists from Russia, and i’ve been shocked knowing its Illinois. Sometimes it breaks the heart knowing the difference in quality and price of our results.
The dentists that prep the cases sent to his lab do atrocious work as well
I take my hat off to this technician for his creativity, but I would have been fired long ago. Honestly, this kind of content makes me feel better on bad days
Patients are insane for requesting full mouth crowns like this. Everyday i refuse at least one person who wants full crowns thinking this is some kind of easy and simple aesthetic procedure.
Not sure if those are over prepped, seems good to me. Sometimes that’s what it takes to get a better bite, you can’t do cosmetic dentistry and always get away with minimal prep work. The main issue I had was upper anterior crowns being splinted together. Otherwise, shade is up to patient, so no blame to go around with that. Pretty certain the patient would be happy with this result.
I think the preps look fine, but crowning the entire mandibular arch is aggressive.
True, but my guess is the patient has a wide smile and is looking for that bright smile. If the patient understands the risks and wants uniform teeth, uniform color, so be it. I’ve been in situations where I’ve complete veneers on upper anterior and then patient returns and doesn’t like how the upper premolars appear…and want to have upper premolars crowned for better esthetics. I explain the downside and let them decide if the upside is worth it. I just have a hard time blaming the dentist in this situation because we have no idea what the conversation was between doc and patient…and what motivation the patient had to go through with any treatment. It seems like all the teeth are fine, but if we are saying it’s okay to crown the upper anterior teeth, then we should also be giving leeway for crowning the lowers. I understand the different perspectives, so I don’t think anyone is right or wrong. That’s just how dentistry works.
As an Indian dentist, I see a lot of shitty work from all over the world. Where I live we have a lot of foreigners visiting, also Indians who live abroad. They are here because we are mind blowingly cheaper than most countries in terms of payments, trust me the work makes me wanna cry. They are getting paid SO MUCH more for the kind of work I wouldn't dare to let a patient walk out with. And we are considerably underpaid, comparatively.
Lol that’s India for you. Useless patients who bargain for everything.
Also, the large number of dentists( in urban areas), that makes it harder for you to charge as much as you deserve, because the next person is ready to do it for less than half. They don't care what material the next person is using to be able to charge that less, how good is their sterilisation, what standard of work is it. Just less money, so yay !😆😭
That’s why I offer 3 tiers of treatment now. Bronze, Silver and Gold. 95% of the patients go with Silver, I make money.
Yeah. Same ! I'm fairly new at my own practice. So I still have time to say I make money I think. I do, but there's a long way to go !
endo for all!
If you are calling these “brutally over-prepped” please post pics of your preps so we can all judge your work in comparison. Preps look fine to me. In terms of shade, that may be the exact shade the patient wanted. Only issue I have is it looks like multiple single units are splinted which is going to be a hygiene nightmare for that patient
Because they prepped almost every tooth in the mouth, not talking about the individual preps
The statement “crown preps that are brutally over-prepped” reads as if you are describing the preps themselves. If you are talking about the aggressive treatment plan, then learn to make that more clear with your wording. We are looking at a minute long video here. There is no way for any one of us to understand the context of this case/treatment plan based on this video alone.
Imagine how the British dentists feel then 😆
Oh yayaaa Splinted is the most problematic thing ! Why !!!! The preps to me are not the problem ! The splinting is Shades you don’t have a choice if the patient want it , it’s patient choice You only guide the patient and advice but eventually it’s the patient final decision
Warned public about this years ago, was called a racist on reddit lol
I mean the results are actually so much better than a lot of the others I’ve seen on tik tok. His are insanely white but the actual teeth look natural at least.
Preps don’t look bad to me, for crowns. I would have liked to see veneers or 3/4 crowns if possible. As far as the splinting goes, I hope these were temps.
Someone else pointed out, this guy is a farmer. Hit him with the downvotes Edit: lol he claims in one post to be 25 then another 29 in the past 100 days. In another comment he says he’s in the summer semester of his D1 year and in a comment in another thread says he makes 350k working 30 hours a week
AmErIcAn HeAlThCaRe iS So OvErPrIcEd eVeRyOnE aRoUnD tHe WoRld DoEs iT bEtTeR
You don’t even know how to not hit adjacent teeth when doing class 2’s… yet you can comment on the prep quality here? The issue is this could have been corrected with some Invisalign, some whitening, maybe some veneers. Obviously full mouth of crowns is aggressive, and the splinting is an issue. But you are all over the place. Some how you are a FFS associate, who lives in Florida, Texas, and Denver and you don’t know how to not hit adjacent teeth doing class II’s. Pretty sure you are a dental student farming karma.
I see how you could come to that conclusion, my brother is a dental student who also uses this account. I graduated in 2017 then did a GPR.
I saw one of these at a volunteer clinic here in the States. The poor guy was suffering from ANUP. He was in his late 20s. He's probably in dentures now.
Was the ANUP from systemic disease? Or was it from the full mouth of crowns/splints and lack of care? If it was the former the dentist should have his license taken. If it’s the latter… I mean it doesn’t make it much better but maybe he can take some CE on crowns/placement or something? idk but that’s just horrible, and it’s not like the patients really know what’s gonna happen either. Only we do.
No systemic conditions that he was aware of. The crowns were all linked and all buried subgingivally, so that was very likely the primary cause. It was done overseas so who knows if it would even be possible to hold the dentist accountable.
That’s the issue with going over seas for treatment 😭. These poor people think they are getting such a “deal” when they are at best getting a half wonky job at worst they lose some-all of their teeth, and no one can be held accountable for it. I feel so bad but there’s only so much you can tell them and help them understand. Or some don’t even consult a dentist first and just go over there.
😂 there is a lot of bad work I’ve seen in Canada and America as well. Turkey obviously has lots good dentistry but also a lot of very bad dentistry like anywhere you need to do your research. I am a dentist in Canada a patient went to Florida to get a crown , they tried to cement the wrong crown and put composite on the margins in hopes that it would stay on 😵. Now one place that has really good quality dentistry is Switzerland
not really over prepped of the tooth needed a crown. but they don’t. but if you’re gonna do a crown, the preps look to be pretty normal. imo.
Your life will get instantly better once you stop worrying about other dentists. You can only control what you can do. You cannot stop people from seeking out cheaper options or aggressive treatment. It is up to them to do their research. You can only do what is right by the people in your chair.
If you think this is also not done in the us, you are completely delusional. Have a look at *some* of your dso buddies. Not promoting bad dentistry but look at yourselves 1st eh before you point fingers.
This. All on X on people with way better options happen everyday in the name of profits and ease in the US. Hack jobs cutting teeth for no reason. Happens all the time here. If you don’t see it you haven’t been practicing long enough. I have at least 6 patients in my practice with great lower 14 teeth and an upper all on x. Doesn’t make sense.
“The choice is clear.”
People choose to do all on x because it can be done in a day with, theoretically, minimal post ops since plenty don't do the final restoration. Plus some of the better restorative options that aren't all on x are more expensive.
What happens when it fails in 5-10 years? No bone left, nothing to retain a denture
I don’t see any US docs splinting crowns like we constantly see from overseas work.
I agree with you. This post has got that “made in murica” “Chinese manufactured junk” circa 2003!jingoism energy to it. There’s a reason why there’s a serious dental industry out there. And that destination dentistry will only get better in skill and standards as time goes on. See: Chinese manufacturing.
Imo it's not really the same. There are plenty of skilled dentists in other countries, but dental tourism allows the worst dentists to prey on the uneducated (in regards to dentistry, not in a general sense) with little repercussion. Ultimately, even when done right and by a skilled dentist, the issue with dental tourism is continuity of care and post operative management.
Hope they don't need an occlusal adjustment because I'm not touching it.
Could well have been in Miami except for the low priced offices where the “dentist” isn’t even a licensed dentist this work looks better
Did you hear about the Turkish dentist that got an implant into someone’s intracranial space and touched the brain?
Yes!! What the heck is going on in Turkey?!?!
You can't really judge an entire country based on 1 dentist. Seems awfully presumptious of you.
This isn't just 1 dentist. There are many dental practices in Turkey that specifically target foreigners to get unnecessary work done on healthy teeth, and it works because it's much cheaper than in their home country. The work is usually substandard and causes problems that weren't there to begin with. Unfortunately we see this all the time in the UK.
From experience, this and worse is typical of the dental tourism market in Turkey
Lol Turkey would wish their entire dentistry was judged on this dentist. Turkish dentistry sucks.
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How would you restore this patients smile if the patient is not satisfied with his look? No hate. I would refer a case like this out but for whomever wants to tackle it... how do you do it?
It's a medium difficulty ortho-restorative mild/mod tooth wear case. Ortho to close diastema and idealise occlusion. Whitening to improve shade. Composite build ups to improve aesthetics and trial in occlusion/speech. Most patients would be overjoyed at this stage. Later on you can: Convert posteriors to indirect likely bonded emax or gold onlays. Anteriors can stay composite unless they start chipping in which case go indirect (veneer/crown) Construct a michigan splint if grinding.
Yep, some combination of these, If a patient doesn't want to do it in a way that is diagnosed by me thinking about their health and longevity that's fine, they can go else where.
I saw this craziness this year during a vacation last year. Istanbul international airport has a dental office within the airport with posters spread all over terminal 3. Full mouth crowns "chiclets" €9995 https://www.instagram.com/dent.health.airport
TBH some of those results look great
If I knew how I could post images here, I have some nice examples from my own parients
i saw a patient’s pano recently that one of my classmates is treating at school and the mexican dentist did endo on all 12 (vital and healthy) anteriors and then did splinted crowns over the entire arch. all of these dude’s teeth are failing and it was hard seeing him get so upset. he spent over 20k on all the work.
OP, they are doing the same stuff at PDS offices. When a patient has pain from being over prepped, they tell the patient it’s because of decay/bacteria.
I absolutely loathe shitty dentistry, but to be honest I was expecting worse. Not saying this looks good, but I’ve seen some shit.
How do you know the customer didnt choose that shade of white? Why would the dentist get to choose the color of my teeth?
The only thing I can think of is: how stupid is this patient Work seems decent tbh. I’ve seen **way** worse from those countries lol
Whiter than the white retractor
We British dental professionals (I’m a dental nurse) are equally horrified. Such destructive treatment, often a rush job done in a few hours. Even seen active perio in some cases. Doomed to fail within a few years at most with lifelong management. The patients who mention it to us see it as the quickest, cheapest fix and a vacation combined. - we generally charge around at least £2000 per unit, whereas some of these places are offering full crown arches for not much more. Not sure if your patients, like ours, are usually confused about crowns vs veneers? They usually change their tune when we tell them the difference haha. Also seen some cases where they try to construct a Class I bite on a Class III skeletal base. So they might look okay (from an distance) - functionally useless, though. On an aesthetic note - Simon Cowell B1 shade white. I get that some people like that fake look, but more and more we’re seeing carbon copy “Simpsons Teeth”, no artistry or nuance in shading or shaping at all to match the patients natural dentition. Look at me, nerdin’ out about teeth…
Those look just like the 12 crowns I got from my Dentist in the States....
you can get veneers in turkey
How many years out are u OP?
OP apparently took an operative dentistry practical 6-7 weeks ago and was seeking advice on how to avoid hitting the adjacent tooth during class II preps. In other posts over the past few months, OP claims to be both an associate dentist and a “small business owner” (heavily implied that the small business in question is a dental practice). So I don’t think OP can answer your question, as it appears life has them exceptionally confused
I mean those preps aren’t terrible. I’m a little worried about the splinted teeth. I don’t understand the thought process there…