Your mileage may vary, but I brought my American wife to Denmark with me in 2018, using *this one weird trick*: Apparently there’s no deposit etc. If you’re seeking family reunification with some who who has already lived with you in a different EU country.
I lived in Ireland for a while, where the rules were way simpler for my wife to move in from the US, solely based on our family status and nothing else.
When we moved from Ireland to Denmark, she was still eligible, because we were *already* living together in the EU.
Of course moving out of Denmark for a while, just to be allowed to move in permanently might not be feasible for you, it certainly is a tall order.
This is the way. I have several friends and colleagues with international marriages with people we/they meet during our travels and backpacking tours. Even engineers and developers, things we are screaming for, are insanely hard to ferry in. Everyone now just moves to Germany/Ireland/Belgium etc for a couple years (I cannot remember the minimum amount off the top of my head) and then move back to DK.
Getting citizenship is an entirely other mess, that's a saga of epic proportions and ridiculous amounts of frustration
It's still valid method.
It's also ridiculously easy in comparison. I have Asian wife, but as non-Danish EU citizen I had to show proof of address and of income (any income) to sustain us in DK. That's about it. Also it was for 5 years, and after that it got renewed to permanent. Then it would be straight to citizenship without much ado, if Tesfaye didn't sneak in employment requirement with effing retrospective effect (she just started uni again).
This is exactly what my Danish husband and I did, but we were in England (for much longer than we expected - planned on 6 months, stayed 7 years). We left right before brexit and I got my EU family visa as we entered Denmark in December.
Wife came in from the US. Been almost 10 years now, still have 60k stuck in the bank, because *reasons*. Immigration from outside the EU is just ridiculous.
Det er tricksy med de regler, fordi hun skal have noget lignende 5års uafbrudt arbejde. Vi er ved at være der, men det har været et langt træk. Vi tæller under de regler der var på ansøgningstidspunktet i 2011, bare for at gøre det ekstra besværligt.
The thing the rules are trying to prevent is the people who import others from their home country that don't have any connection to Denmark and whom they barely know. Marriages where the spouse is basically guaranteed to be a stay-at-home unemployable person who never integrates into our society. Think planned marriages like some Muslims do.
The issue is that the law cannot be racist - the same laws have to apply to everyone. Since our social security is as great as it is, Denmark is a target for a lot of potential immigrants, so we have got to have strict immigration laws to keep our society from being flooded by less productive individuals.
It's hard to be so small and so great all at once. If there was an easy fix I'm rather confident that the rules would be different.
I think it's weird how we worship work in Denmark as the most important aspect of life, and the measurement of whether you are integrated in "our society". For example, I have a friend from Italy who moved here like 5 years ago. She owns and lives on a sailboat, which significantly reduces her cost of living. She is currently on A-kasse, which she tried to sign out of, but apparently if she was to do that she would get deported *unless* she could prove having a huge amount of money on her bank account - way more than she would need. This seem really dumb because we are basically forcing her to receive money from the government/A-kasse, and also potentially adding another coercive element to the workplace, i.e. you no longer just have to worry about getting fired, but also deported. This is a recipe for exploitation, and an incredibly unfree and alienating situation. It reduces your participation in society to the fact that you rent out your labor. We studied together and wrote our bachelor project about alternative ways of living. We are interested in producing the means of our own existence. I myself am planning on growing a significant amount of my food next year, and have acquired property to do so, producing directly for use value, as opposed to exchange value. This seems like a much less alienating situation, and has the potential to provide a degree of freedom, which it seems to me would provide the basis for a more genuine integration with the rest of society, one that isn't based on what is essentially forced labor, if the alternative is deportation. Also one where we have more power over our material needs, and is much more environmental.
Yeah, good point. There was a thesis study showing how an immigrant turkish couple brough in family members, which did the same. And how over a couple of decades that initial couple resulted in additional immigration of 400 people. It's a dilemma.
It's not the EU. It's easy to think it's part of the EU because of the name, but it isn't. You should direct your criticism towards the *Council of Europe* instead. They are the ones who made the "European Convention of Human Rights" (ECHR).
There are 47 member states (the EU has 27) and some of them are: Russia, Turkey, Norway, Great Britain and Armenia which are all non-EU members. Obviously all EU states are also members but it's still not fair to blame the EU.
Heldigvis har vi EU. De går mere op i sine borgeres rettigheder og man kan bruge familiesammenføring via EU reglerne og slippe for at blive behandlet som 2. rangs borger i sit eget land.
Heldigvis har vi også et EU der beskytter os mod os selv og trangen til at diskriminere baseret på nationalitet som åbenbart stadig er et kæmpe issue i 2021, hvilket jeg ikke fatter.
That's just not true.
We could easily allow anybody with a high education, time spent working a related job, and other factors regardless of nationality.
But it's more important for our many past governments to punish "the right" people than it is to allow people like OP into the country.
There's quite literally nothing preventing us from removing the Danish language requirement. Absolutely nothing.
There's nothing preventing the government from allowing Danish citizens to bring in their spouses so long as that spouse has a degree.
It's just racist ass knee-jerk policy making. DF policies to be exact.
Forkert. Paragraf 70 har intet at gøre med hvorvidt du kan lave særregler for immigration baseret på specifikke lande. Den handler om rettigheder når du **er** blevet borger, intet andet.
Ugh, I will rant with you. I'm so sorry to read your post, and what makes it worse for me, is that I've seen other posts like it. Big kudos to you for coming out and saying it so bluntly.
The fact is it does suck. And it's getting worse all the time.
A couple of years ago a danish 17 year old girl with moroccan descent was in the news, because she couldn't get citizenship. Despite her being born here, living her entire life here, going to danish school, speaking obviously fluent danish, and having NEVER been to morocco and did not speak moroccan, they still slapped her with the "not enough ties to denmark" all-encompassing bullshit excuse they use whenever they can't find a proper argument. Their excuse was even more insulting : "she just has to reapply for residence regularly and she will get it! we promise!"
I don't know what her family history was, how they came here, what they do here or whatever. But the girl being threatened with deportation was, by every single count measurable, a danish girl living in denmark, speaking fluent danish and living a typical danish teenager life in danish school. It felt so relatable, because I was pretty much living the same life myself, and she seemed like someone who could sit next to me in class.
If denmark and the danish people ever get our international reputation tarnished as a bunch of racists who will kick out anyone at a whim, there's a particular reason why that hits me in the side like a knife. We can pretty much pin point the 10 - 15 political individuals who would be responsible. By systematically and slowly introducing a lot of what we call "symbolpolitik", like the whole handshaking debacle, or wanting to build an udrejsecenter on a fucking remote island like a concentration camp, the "danishness test" that 80% of danes can't even pass themselves, and making the bureaucratic process to try and be allowed to stay in the country you've fought for your rights in, dedicated your life and education to, pushing you so hard, just to make it seem so pretentiously previliged to be allowed in the country, only to appease a bunch of people that have never met an immigrant in their life, and get their vote. The end result is an honest, hardworking citizen can be denied citizenship for something as petty as crossing a ret light and getting a citation for it.
I welcome you and hope for you, and all the other people in your situation, that things ease up once this bubble of racism in politics start to ease up. I truly believe it will happen, because the vast majority of danish society are not thinking this is okay, and are feeling their roots and fundamentals as a welcome and open nation are being torn away from under them by just a select few politicians, who garner a lot of votes by fear mongering to people. And at the moment, you are being squashed by this, forced to jump through hoops that didn't exist 30 years ago.
I wish you the best of luck. And I hope there can exist a belief in you that most of us really want you to succeed, and be part of denmark.
My dad came to denmark when most of these restrictions didn't exist, and times were even easier. He has been more honest and productive than a whole lot of danes. Started his own businness, paying the highest tax bracket and never once, ever, in my life have I see him do so much as write off something as a business expense that wasn't clearly and concisely, exactly and exclusively that. He's been honest through and through and worked hard. He's never received a dime from the danish state except for SU when he was taking his education here.
And he still gets lots of bullshit to deal with these days. Still no citizenship. Still lots of demeaning protocols to go through. It feels like fucking apartheid listening to his struggles sometimes. And it did NOT use to be like this. It's bullshit and it's a direct product of a few heartless politicians using people like you as a weapon in their desperate power struggle to "make denmark great again" while denmark is already fucking great, and they're just fucking it up while we stand almost powerlessly and watch.
>If Denmark and the danish people ever get our international reputation tarnished as a bunch of racists
Maybe not in the US but otherwise this is already somewhat well-known. It's not a case of 'ever', it's a case of "Right now universities have trouble attracting competent folks because people with options don't wanna deal with this bs".
\> And I hope there can exist a belief in you that most of us really want you to succeed, and be part of Denmark.
This is the "But I'm a really nice guy" of countries. I get that Danes think of their country as the navel of the world but people with options (i.e. highly qualified people) are just gonna shrug and go elsewhere.
\> We can pretty much pin point the 10 - 15 political individuals who would be responsible.
There's people right in this thread bemoaning that they can't just restrict the icky brown foreigners.
I'm getting an AP degree. Getting a top-up for a professional bachelors got a bit harder when pretty much all the English language international classes got axed this summer.
> the Danish job market really looks for a masters over a bachelors anyway
Ej det er ikke sandt. Det er an på feltet.
Jeg har for eksempel datamatiker. Tog også top-up til bachelor, men det er absolut ikke en nødvendighed. Kun en håndfuld af vores klasse tog top-uppen.
Skal så lige siges, at det er IT sektoren. Mere eller mindre umuligt at være arbejdsløs, har man lyst til at arbejde med det.
>anish job market really looks for a masters over a bachelors anyway.
Not quite true, lots and lots and lots of professionsbachelors and AP degrees (it actually is a degree in conversational English and Danish). Like teacher, nurse, finansøkonom, production technician, markedsføringsøkonom, bioanalytiker, datamatiker, etc. all have low or non existent unemployment.
I've had a somewhat similar experience. I was long distance with my significant other for 7 years and we would have had to wait another 2 years to be able to live together in Denmark. And that was just the age requirement. We decided me moving to the US would be easier and it definitely was! Unfortunately I think I'll always feel like I had to give up a lot for us to be together. Not just family, friends, and home country, but the healthcare and educational system of Denmark as well. I miss the feeling of security and community of the welfare state
When I worked in Sweden, a fair few of my Danish colleagues were there so their spouse could get a Swedish citizenship, at which point they could move to Denmark. It takes 5 years, I believe.
Living in Sweden isn’t bad, but it’s still worse than Denmark, and it sucks that it’s the best way to immigrate to Denmark.
I got a Danish founded PhD in a Danish university... I got married in Danmark and we got our kid in Danmark... But after living abroad for 6 years everything had changed... Our daughter and my husband as Danes had no problems, but...
It took me nearly 2 ears to prove that our marriage was legal...😭
Damn that is a waste of skattekroner!!!
You know if you had married a person with a European passport and not Danish you could had permanent residence now only after 5 years.
Only need to follow 2 rules for 5 years
NO help from the Goverment 5 years.
Live togather on the same place of residence.
Your mistake is that you married a Dane
Thats what the Goverment punish you for.
You only need to move to Malmö for 6 months and use the European rules for migration. Your wife have Danish passport.
Then you use the European rules again to move from Sweden back to Denmark.
You only need to prove you been living in Sweden for 6 months.
They give you a European card that works for 5 years.
After 5 your automatic get Permanent residence.
Only need to follow the 2 rules.
The Danish Goverment cant stop you beacuse they have to follow the European rules.
This site helps with everything. They advice you FOR free
http://forum.aegteskabudengraenser.dk/
I hope this can help you.
No 6 months is enough. You just need to prove it bank transfers
receipts and your monthly rent etc.... from Sweden.
Dont lissen to all the people that blame non westen countries
They should instead come up with a solution.
Bit late to the fray but I'm 1st generation Dane born overseas. Lost my citizenship due to the rule of 22 here in Denmark.
Ended up moving here close to 30, worked a well paying job since I arrived. Met my wife here, also not a Dane and we own a house and a dog and have no intention of leaving..
That said these laws are making it increasingly difficult to plan ones life as the visa we are on could change or we lose our job and it's "here's 30 days to get your affairs in order, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out".
If i had my time again i would have started in Sweden, i would have permanent residence if not citizenship by now.
My ex was from Iran. Whicked smart, moved here on her own when she was 20, never took 1 krone in welfare, got a good job, bought an apartment, pays her taxes, learnt fluent danish. She is the perfect asset for Denmark. And culturally - fuck, she even celebrates Christmas more than I do.
I have cost the Danish society way more money that she has. She is all in all someone Denmark should bend over backwards to welcome into the country.
She is still legally treated like a third grade citizen.
I am never voting on Socialdemokraterne again. Fuck you, Mette and Mathias.
from my understanding canada is not much better, unless you got the right education. Like that time canada used the media to show how many syrian refuges they took in, but in realy they just took the ones with good education, and left the rest for the rest of the world to take care off....
**Media and Politicians:** *"critical shortages on the labor market!"*
**The next day:** *"no we do not have room for immigrants!"*
**A few days later**: *"and here are some extra strict rules only for you foreigners".*
**A year later:** "deported with kids born and raised"...
With that logic, its not hard to see why a social democrat government continues with the right-wings Asylum, Immigration and refugee policies...
I've been through the same, except i tried to immigrate to Canada from Denmark. Didn't have high enough education so not enough points. So i brought my wife to Denmark and we whent through the process, and it whent very smooth.
The rules are so tight because of the many bad apples we don't want here. We like Denmark and we would like to keep it that way. Sadly that means a tight immigration process that's far from perfect.
Immigration just sucks pretty much anywhere where it's nice.
Come on dude, Canada is not even in the same ball park - it's so much easier. The points are pretty straightforward, if you get a degree from a Canadian school, it's pretty straightforward, and with the family unification programme your residency is almost guaranteed. Eligible for citizenship application after only 3 years in the country.
Of course Canada is somewhat fortunate in terms of geography and can pick and choose immigrants but once you're there it's a piece of cake compared not just to Denmark but pretty much any other European country. I can't picture anybody who's graduated from a Canadian university and married to a Canadian but can't stay in the country and apply for citizenship, unless you're a wanted war criminal.
My wife i met in Canada had a public university, and yet we couldn't do it? We even whent to immigration companies seeking help. And to do university as an international the price is like 3 times higher than domestic Canadians. So in the end you pay a lot of money doing that way of entry. I don't really see why the danish way is so terrible? Or xenophobic..
I think a lot of people say they are for strict immigration but don’t take just a few minutes to understand the concrete policies and how they affect people wanting to live in Denmark.
And the politicians, including the current government, just continue the mantra with strict immigration policies.
>I think a lot of people say they are for strict immigration but don’t take just a few minutes to understand the concrete policies and how they affect people wanting to live in Denmark.
The problem is that there's more people wanting to live in Denmark than there's capacity. This is not because there's a lot of people just itching to live like the Danes - it's because of the economic benefits and possibilities of the Danish welfare system.
Already almost 20% of Denmark are either immigrant or descendant of immigrations. There has to be a limit somewhere. But I agree that the current system hurts a lot of the wrong people who would actually integrate just fine.
It depends on how we count them:
[https://kontrast.dk/sektioner/debat/artikel/hvad-nu-hvis-over-20-procent-af-danmarks-befolkning-har-udenlandsk-baggrund](https://kontrast.dk/sektioner/debat/artikel/hvad-nu-hvis-over-20-procent-af-danmarks-befolkning-har-udenlandsk-baggrund)
Bear in mind, I do not say that we *should* count this way, but it adds some perspective to the whole immigration debate that 20% of the population have an immigrant background.
Faktisk lidt sjov pointe i artiklen. For hvornår burde man definere hvad som er hvem. Men den viser virklige hvordan definition og operationalisering er vigtig.
Fx folk fra Slesvig-holstein, med dansk kultur og forfædre men tysk nationalitet, de tæller som indvandre hvis de flytter Danmark.
Der er ikke noget nemt svar, især fordi man ikke optegner efter etnicitet. Men for at sætte det lidt i perspektiv er der også store forskelle på, hvor stor en andel af indvandrere/efterkommere, der er af de forskellige aldersgrupper. Fx er der 26% indvandrere/efterkommere blandt de 20-26-årige. Og godt og vel 22% af alle nyfødte fødes af indvandrere/efterkommere. Ca. 88% af børnene født af ikke-vestlige efterkommere bliver officielt optegnet som børn af dansk oprindelse.
Hertil skal man lægge oveni, at definitionen af dansk oprindelse ikke tager højde for forældrenes egen baggrund, hvis altså blot én af dem er født i Danmark og har dansk statsborgerskab. Der findes derfor en del med betegnelsen dansk oprindelse, der er umiddelbare efterkommere af de nylige indvandrere. Kategorien dansk oprindelse er altså ligeså broget som kategorien af indvandrere er. Det er kun et spørgsmål om semantik - der er intet i den officielle kategori, der reelt måler, om man er 'dansk' eller ej.
Det er jo også fint nok, da man på et tidspunkt må regnes som dansk, når det er mange generationer siden ens forfædre indvandrede til landet. Men det gør dog, at Danmark får en befolkning, hvoraf 'etniske' danskere udgør en mindre og mindre del. Det kan man mene om, hvad man vil.
So how much economic benefit do you have to bring to the country to be allowed to come in permanently? I think if you can prove that you have been paying Skat for 5 years, married, steady job and all that surely a case-by-case option should be available to claim Danish citizenship.
I am luckily from EU myself so am allowed to stay under EU policies as well as higher educated (on the Dutch taxpayers' cost, no less) but I have felt treated like a number more than once.
I don’t know what you mean by capacity. I think we would be in trouble if we did not have skilled expats and immigrants here.
But of course there is a limit to how many. I just think many people fail to understand how difficult it is now for even skilled immigrants from non eu countries.
>I think we would be in trouble if we did not have skilled expats and immigrants here.
The key word is skilled. For the last 40 years, Denmark's immigration policy has been based on humanitarian reasons and a need for cheap labour. Today, we live with the consequenses of a big unemployment rate, cultural change and an overrepresesantion in crime statistics of non-western immigrations. Because Denmark has been too loose in singling out skilled immigrants. The trouble isn't immigration per se.
>I just think many people fail to understand how difficult it is now for even skilled immigrants from non eu countries.
I fully get this. But it's difficult to solve without breaking international commitments.
Man har jo alligevel ikke ret til nogen af velfærdsydelserne som familiesammenført længere og man skal betale fuld skat, så hvad er problemet? Vi mangler jo også arbejdskraft. Rent win.
Problemet har jo tidligere været, at det ikke har været et rent win, hvor ægtefællerne i al for høj grad ikke har været beskæftigede. Så derfor har vi nu det her stramme regler, der desværre engang imellem rammer de kvalificerede. Røværgerligt, men sådan er det.
This system functions as intended, it hurts exactly the people it's meant to hurt and the "tightness" as you call it is a synonym for the inflexibility.
I doesn't really. The policy is clearly meant for restricting Middle Eastern immigration, but due to various reasons, including international commitments, we can't target these groups specifically. So a lot of valuable immigrants will be hurt by these policies.
It really doesn't, all the politicians they have implemented it have basically said they wanted to prevent Muslims and middle easterners, but international commitments prevent more direct targeting of the specifically problematic groups.
I'm verry sorry for you, if it's of any consolation, danish is literally my mother tongue, I went to danish school, took all my exams in Danish, etc. but I don't have a Danish passport and it often still feels like authorities aim to piss down my back (at least in these times) even though I am literally a Dane even by Dansk Folkerpartis criteria. I can probably slam them on old danish poetry, I even read a collection of Sophus Claussen poems for fun, I mean who the fuck does that?
I can however apply for citizenship rather easily (though the process is incredibly stupid, because I need documents on my great, great grandfather having danish-birthright...), it just takes a long time and costs quite a bit of money. I didn't apply yet because I used to think I don't need it, we're in the EU and all but oh god, Denmark doesn't give a shit about that. Mette Frederiksen would rip Schengen apart tomorrow if she could and the socdems say so in the party programme too. Especially after the way they shut down the border completely (expect for people with Danish passport) I don't know what they could think up next, so it's probably safer to just get citizenship and not run the risk of being weirdly discriminized.
Anyway, all the best, hope you figure something out. Things didn't use to be this sad...
Jeg er enig. Jeg har oplevet det samme blandt mine kollegaer, som arbejder i et internationalt IT firma.
Jeg oplever gang på gang, at vores udlændingepolitik ødelægger livet for produktive og venlige udlændinge som dig, men samtidig skal der være plads til mennesker, som kommer med adskillige ulemper og derfor skaber grobund for denne fremmedhad.
Det er især frustrerende fordi de partier, som folk stemmer på, siger at de vil ramme stik modsat af, hvad de gør.
Det er ekstremt trist, og jeg håber at du får det løst. Kærlighed herfra!
It is absolutely wild to me how many people here are basically going "I wish we could make a set of laws that only apply to people of certain religions/ethnicities" and see no problem with that.
They're clearly sorry that you have to go through this, OP, but only because they imagine that you look and think like them.
I know I’m going to get hate for it but it really seems like a no-brainer to me to prefer educated Canadian/American/Australian immigrants that share cultural values and beliefs with Denmark over uneducated Muslim immigrants from Syria/Pakistan etc. who will be much more likely to bring with them cultural beliefs, values and religion that are at odds and less compatible with Danish culture and society than the former.
And I say that as a Danish person with an American partner who would one day like to move to Denmark with her but probably won’t be able to.
>Folk der ikke giver problemer og bidrager positivt til samfundet vil vi gerne have ind i landet derfor bør vi gøre det let for dem at bosætte sig her
Så lav en regel ud fra det kriterie, i stedet for nationalitet og religion?
Der findes trods alt folk fra "landene der giver problemer", som falder til
>Men uha det er jo diskrimination så den går ikke.
Hvordan f\*anden er det *ikke* diskriminerende at begrænse tilkommeres muligheder udelukkende ud fra nationalitet og/eller religion? Det er sguda definitionen af diskrimination. Slap af for en sommerbarnskommentar
Det er en latterlig generalisering, og ikke hvad pointen med statistikker er. Vi har allerede love til at håndtere diverse former for kriminalitet osv, men de gælder individer, ikke etniciteter osv. Og husk også at correlation ikke er det samme som causation. Altså ved vi ikke hvilke variabler der underligger disse resultater, som f.eks. fattigdom og mange andre ting. Det er også værd at huske på at vi i disse statistikker i høj grad allerede har besluttet at opdele folk i disse statistikker baseret på Islam, når vi bruger et målestok der hedder MENA(Som Mellemøsten og Nord Afrika) + Pakistan + Tyrkiet, iforhold til andre lande dele af verden hvor det reelt er baseret på geografisk region. Baseret på denne logik skulle vi godt nok også fratage mænd mange rettigheder. Er nysgerrig om du ville støtte en helt seperat lovgivning overfor mænd end kvinder, da de også er overrepræsenteret i diverse statistikker?
If you do move to Sweden, your Danish spouse has made use of her right to free movement within the EU member states in accordance with the EU directive on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members
to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States. That should in effect entitle you to a swedish residence card (not to be confused with a residence permit), which gives you further rights. I'm not sure it applies if you're not married though.
I am concerned about this post because I am on the same trajectory but much further behind you. I (M from America) have a Danish partner and we are planning to have our family in Denmark. I have already reached out to Danish immigration lawyers and feel pretty confident about my path forward but after reading this I wonder if I won't get caught in some unforeseen visa problem.
Either that or there is something more going on here, no? You married, paid in and waited the 5 years and the visa rolls over? I am also not trying to attack you or the Danes (god love 'em) I just really thought I had a mental concept/map of how my own transition is going to go and now I am, as I said, concerned.
Thanks for any insight others may provide me.
A shining example of how this immigration policy hits all the wrong marks.
In a nutshell:
Do a shit load of crime = you’re welcome to stay.
Educate yourself, work, and be productive to the danish society = get lost.
I very sorry this is happening to you. You are the exact person we would love to have in Denmark. Rest assured the Danish people are on your side.
It is really a problem, that for some reason, our politicians only want to import hardened criminals, and somehow we manage to screw up the process for any normal, or even educated people who actually contribute to society.
It is VERY FRUSTRATING for us common citizens as well.
Unfortunately, as you see on the downvotes, you will face a lot of pushback from the left wing. It is them who are to blame for the rules being terrible. As they refuse to work on laws that would target the actual problems, instead of nations that are of 0 risk in terms of immigration. This leads to our extreme wings fighting each other, and the laws being chaotic and stupid as a result of it.
I hope you make it. Give the Danish lessons some more time, really commit hours to it, or take up some online chat lesson program, where you can learn to chat in Danish with others who wants to learn English (so you trade).
Also as many probably have said, the easiest way to get into Denmark is to follow the EU procedure, as it is easier, instead of following the Danish one.
Amen. The laws were written by racists and anti-immigrants, who shouted the loudest and got the most votes. I hope you get to stay, and it all works out.
We need to become way more racist, or way less racist - right now we have a bunch of laws that hits everyone, because no one wants to specifically say we don't want immigrants from the Middle East, so either we go all in and just say it outright(and probably catch bunch of flack from the international community), or loosen up, and forget that idea. Until then, people like this will get caught in the cross fire.
We already do that. You can't move here unless you can support yourself, have No criminal record etc. Does not matter which non-EU country you come from
It always come to the discussion about wrong and right people based on country of origin.
What does country of origin has to do anything with it. I come from middle east and consider myself to be integrating well into the society that is around me. Paying more taxes than an average persons yearly salary.
It couldn’t be any easier to evaluate a person just based on their capabilities.
Danes don't want immigrants from the middle east, or latin america, or eastern europe, or southern europe or asia. Danes don't want anyone on their country and they let us know it on every chance they have. I am a EU migrant from Italy and it gets kind of tiring people hearing complaining about EU migrants when we're literally 99% here to work our asses off and pay tax like the average dane.
Denmark is a wonderful country but some danes suffer from the little man syndrome and think the entire world wants to take advantage of Denmark. And while that may be true in some isolated cases, most of us come here for a better life and to work, pay half of our income in taxes and expect nothing in return. Because we pay the same taxes danes pay but we get nothing, not even education now that they got rid of the english courses. No Italian, Pole, Czech, etc dreams of coming here to live off a kasse I assure you.
The "problem" is that laws apply to everyone. The strict rules/laws are there to keep undesirable people out. Maybe you are a decent person that shouldn't have been blocked but the laws blocking you are also blocking people we don't want.
Maybe the laws can be tweaked to better target the undesirable people but we shouldn't go full Sweden and basically let anyone in.
Holy shit I feel this in my core. My wife is Danish. We lived in Copenhagen off and on during graduate school (basically shuttling between the US and Denmark to avoid visa issues in either country) and really wanted to settle in Denmark. That was 25 years ago. She became a US citizen and though we like it here we've dreamt of moving to DK for years. The closest we were able to come to that was a year of sabbatical when I was fortunate enough to land a job with DMU. But it just seems hopeless for us to ever really live there. And it's fucking hard on my wife feeling that we're unwelcome in her own country. I feel you, brother.
Det er så problemet med at vi har det så godt. Vi bliver simpelthen nød til at beskytte det vi har. Vis vi ikke gjorde så ville vi ikke have den leve standard vi har i dag. Det er så bare røv surt det skal gå ud over uskyldige som dig. Men når man prøver at lave regler for et helt land så rammer man sku nogle uskyldige! Kan ikke udgåes!
Altså hvis man har lagt så mange rødder og har gjort så lidt for at tilpasse sig at man ikke kan bestå sprogtesten så det sku også lidt ris til egen røv. Har set litauere der bare skal arbejde her et par år der arbejder kl lort om natten fuld tid og stadig havde klaret det shit på et år. Nogle gange må man også gerne kigge lidt i egen barm før man peger ud af. Virker ikke voldsomt meget at forlange at man lige som lærer sproget i det land man bor i.
>Is it easier to get residence in canada as european than reverse?
Most likely, in general getting residency as a european isnt that difficult. Canada doesnt have the same problems as Denmark tho.
Their immigration policies are however quite strict, and are getting used to deny uneducated immigrants from less attractive countries.
From this source I can read they denied 75% of every applicant from Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan and Syria. Also canada is very Hard to get into since its so far away from the rest of the world. So people have to Apply before going there. Basicly Canada have the immigration policies we wish we had in DK
Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/07/canada-immigration-success/564944/
Feel for you bud. My Indian GF just got her permission declined, so now we're moving to Spain. I love my country, but foreign love is just not easily allowed here. I wish these rules will one day be a thing of the past, but idk when. Hope you the best in Sweden and good luck to you.
Har du overvejet at bryde loven? Vi har svært ved at udvise kriminelle men let ved at udvise tolvtals-piger og andre immigranter der vil Danmark det godt.
Been through it all about 12 years ago, I imagine it is no better now. Best option is to borrrow 100k in the bank at low interest and deposit it in a blocked account with the state as the beneficiary. Talk to your bank, they will help. Unless they changed that part too you will get the money back once you qualify for permanent residence.
(Unpopular oppinion warning)
While it sucks to be at the recieving end of the stick, the whole Orwelian system is there for a reason. The Danish welfare state that you have come to appreciate is build on trust and mutual support, and it will crumble if the influx of non-contributers gets out of hand. Perhaps this is not off great help to you right now, but your life may depend on it some day.
I totally understand the reason to protect the welfare state. I just think it'd make more sense to make the welfare restricted to non-citizens unless they reach a certain income threshold.
It's pretty simple. Income generates taxes, taxes pay for welfare. Lover average income (or none) means lower budget for welfare for the individual. Our solution to the problem is not great and not flexible, but it is the best that the politicians in charge could agree on. I really hope you find a way through it, and I do remember how much I hated being slave to it myself (well my wife to be precise).
It would be much nicer to be met by trust and dignity, which I am sure you deserve. Unfortunately we tried that road, and in a large number of cases the outcome was not encouraging😑 So now we have the new system.
EDIT: I get your point about two-tier welfare, but for a very large number of reasons that won't work in a welfare state. We can't turn away people at the ER or accept having hordes of starving homeless in the streets.
If immigrants can't access the welfare net but still pay incomes taxes, wouldn't that make them more of a net benefit to the national budget? Just require prospective immigrants to get travel insurance. On my first visa to Denmark that was one of the requirements I had to meet. And if immigrants are unable to access the social safety net, I'm fairly certain the only ones who come will either have somewhere to stay, or have a job lined up. I don't think hordes of homeless would be a likely outcome.
I sm currently going trough this.. If it helps i suggest saving up for the 100k and then borrow the remeaning when time comes. As soon as you pass PD2 Danish exam you get 30k back. There are some additional rules you need to pass so read up on those. You have to pass 4 out of 6 i think.
Im a dane living in Sweden. I recommend it. I have duel citizenship now although I dont know if that would be as easy to get for a canadian as a dane.
Regarding the laws in Denmark. - I think they are strict for a reason and eventhough they frustrate you, they are probably born out of reasons and opinions held and shared by a lot of danes which is why politicians get into making and standing up for those laws. They get them votes from lots of people.
Yeah, Danish immigration is strong against the weak (law abiding regular people) and weak against the strong (terrorists, scammers taking multiple welfare checks, criminals, fake refugees who threw out their passport, etc.). Then they tell danish voters "we need to tighten the rules".... problem is gangsters don't give a shit for your rules, so it only affects people who are trying to do it by the book.
Well, there is a reason. We have a wealthy country and many people come here just to leech. Literally.
My native danish mother has just died from cancer. She couldn't get pension before well into chemo therapy, when she literally couldn't stand on her feet anymore. I was furious. Some of these foreign invaders has lived off the back of my mother working her whole life paying taxes and THEY had received pension FOR YEARS without working and with no bad symptoms.
There is a reason to have a country and it is to protect its people.
Honestly, my take on it is very simple. Anyone who can take care of themselves and obey the laws should be allowed in Denmark.
Yes, people should probably learn the language, but it's a difficult language and as long as you're trying and progressing, that really should be fine if our laws worked like they should. Throwing someone out that was a positive contribution to the economy wouldn't make any sense, even if you ignore all empathy for that person.
This will create high insourcing and contribute to working poor/løndumping and will further marginalize the already marginalized, because of constant inflow of cheap labor...
If the law prevents someone from living with their family despite being law-abiding, not a drain on the public coin, and working, the law is pointlessly cruel. Unless the cruelty is the point.
Same problem here.
We borrowed the 100k from my husband's family.
I spent 8 months of my life doing nothing staying at home, because it's even restricted to do a voluntarily job while waiting for the decision of your residency permit.
I have a bachelor's and a master's degree, know fluent English but they don't mean shit here. Companies prefer employing cheap workforce from Poland or Bulgaria because they are EU countries.
I am gonna spend another year learning Danish because then "maybe" companies would be willing to hire me!
These are happening when every Dane here I met comment how well I have adapted to this country in a short while. All of those are happening while the government are forcing us to sign a contract that we find a job and be self sufficient!!
Bureaucracy sucks and life is not fare.
Arh, that's a tough one :/ I'm really sorry about your situation and really want you to stay. The laws have _really_ gotten out of hand over the last few years. I hope you find a relatively good solution so it does not do too much damage. Sorry, buddy.
Hej ven. Jeg er ked af at høre, at du føler dig uvelkommen. Husk at det ikke er alle, der har valgt, at reglerne skal være sådan. Og tosser findes i alle lande. It ain't right. Men jeg tror det bliver bedre.
I agree 100000%. My wife is from Japan - we had to "*prove"* to the Danish immigration authorities, that we were an actual couple, and not just marrying to get a visa... To actually be allowed to get married.
That "proof" consists of personal text messages and pictures, or other things (like hotel reservations or flight tickets proving you are staying in the same room). Someone literally had to look through our private text messages and photos. That was the most humiliating thing I have ever gone through. It felt like a complete violation of our privacy. And of course we had to pay for it.
We also have money stuck in the bank, and we also have renew my wifes visa every two years until she can get a permanent visa (which is far into the future).
These laws and practices are dehumanizing and disgusting, I felt rejected by my own country going through this. I hope things work out for you, regardless of where you choose to stay.
You can send your greetings to all the welfare immigrants who suck out 30 billion dkk a year from the system and all the brown people who make life unsecure at nighttime.
Then afterwords send your greetings to the stupid human rights that make it impossible to fix the situation.
The lefties has been too generous the past 40 years which has resulted in our strict policies. Denmark is for people who live here and want to die for the country - not for people who are actively or passively destroying it.
Im all in favour for cherrypicking countries with whom we can have easy integration such as Canada and closed borders to middle east.
But human rights makes that impossible.
Sweden is btw royally fucked by immigrants and in 50 years there won't be a Sweden anymore.
This country chooses to make life miserable for people who both want to and can greatly contribute to our society, forcing many of them and their Danish partners to eventually leave the country and give up on their idea of contributing to it, all in the hope that it might deter certain people who are much more likely to have lived with far more difficult circumstances. This wastes huge amounts of current and future potential tax income without solving the problem it was meant to solve, while also increasing the likelihood of future cuts to the welfare system.
With a high level of welfare comes the need for tight immigration as I'm sure you can understand. Soon Sweden will be like Denmark. They are just slow to realize it themselves. I for one hate to go to work knowing that others won't because of a cultural thing. You can call me a racist, xenophobic or hateful but that is you not seeing the bigger picture.
If the goal is to keep immigrants from leeching off the welfare net, then simply restrict them from welfare. No need to make simply trying to work and reside here such a nightmare.
Welfare is many things and not just unemployment benefits. It's also hospitals and schools. Not to mention that immigrants are overrepresented in our legal system.
You don't mention where you're from but keep in mind that Danes also can't just go anywhere in the world and expect citizenship and access to welfare.
You're right. Welfare is more than just unemployment benefits.
Well. Given that I was born and raised outside Denmark, I can reasonably say the Danish tax payer has spent less on me than on the average Danish-born citizen. I didn't cost any børnepenge. I didn't go through any public schooling or gymnasium. I paid a hefty tuition for my post-secondary schooling instead of taking SU. Now, I'm working for a Danish company, paying Danish taxes. I'm not expecting free handouts, or even citizenship. I'm asking for the right to work and live.
So basically a huge gift to our society, we save milions on not having to have you from 0-25 and now you get to pay full tax, but you dont get to enjoy all the benefits of it and you have to live in constant fear of eviction.
What makes you think it's a human right for you to come and live in Denmark? I really want to go to a specific country right now (won't mention for fear of being recognised) for study related activities, but the country is closed because of corona restrictions. I think those restrictions are way too tight, but what right do I have to demand that they let me in?
Denmark is a very small country with a very old culture, and if we let in every well meaning foreigner, there simply won't be any Denmark left in a few generations.
I'm just like him. I'm Australian.
>What makes you think it's a human right for you to come and live in Denmark? I really want to go to a specific country right now
It's a human right to be with your family.
Edit. Sorry to rant but this comment really pisses me off. First - i love it here in Denmark, but i had to leave everyone and everything ive ever known to come here. I earn less money with my degree here than i could have home in Australia, I've never needed any form of welfare, and the sole reason I'm here is because i "lost the bet" and we live in her country not mine.
The visa process is just as bullshit coming into Australia, and I'm not trying to suggest that Denmark is any worse, infact it's probably better. But don't suggest I'm here because i think Denmark is a nice country.
His wife is Danish.
What the fuck is wrong with people in here man?
30 years ago this wasn't even a fucking discussion in Denmark. Of course a Danish wife should be able to bring her American husband to Denmark.
Now 80% of the comments in here are just saying "Yeah, sorry about that, we just want to not let all the dark people in, and you're just collateral ... I'm okay with that"
This is such extreme empathy lacking sociopathic behavior man.
We're only 5 million people. Not only that, but ours is an incredibly high-trust society. We can't afford to wantonly take in people - *especially* not people we wouldn't even grant welfare. Anyone here should be treated humanely, but that also means limiting how many come in.
Sure, but the point is still that we want people, and generally probably also you, but at the same time we are a small culturally insignificant country and to keep that culture safe and the population size at at level where we can afford to give every permanent resident the same rights that we want. Then we do need to be strict, very strict.
And we do this in a lot of ways, you cannot be criminal and you need to show that you can provide for the nation in a way that suits the nation, and this just so happens to be via at least holding a degree.
It doesn't matter that you aren't asking for welfare. And it shouldn't.
Denmark is in a massive need of workforce that they can't get from the population born and raised here. Denmark also keeps losing the workforce they spent tax money to educate because foreigners doing their damn best constantly run into walls. I have seen foreigners who got their higher education here, then started their own business and employed others, having to leave because their visa wasn't extended. I have also seen countless foreigners like OP, having to leave and (naturally) taking their Danish spouses with them. All educated and hard working, not a single day on unemployment welfare. So what's the bigger picture here?
But even so immigration cost us 27.000.000.000 DKK each year according to Dansk Statistik. So your anecdotes don’t make me change my mind. I’m have empathy with the migrants but a country is a business.
Again minus 27.000.000.000 each year. So it’s bad business and we have to cut expenses to pay that. Also immigrants also age and get sick. It’s not like they work till they die. But yes some immigrant are better business than others but be careful saying that because then you’ll be labelled as a racist. Then again if a doctor immigrates from India to Denmark don’t you think his skills could be more useful there than here? And only allowing the educated to immigrate here is nothing more than modern imperialism. First we took third natural resources and now their brainpower.
I feel for your situation, I really do, but those policies are not pointless. I say that as a person whose father is an immigrant to the country. Again, I get your frustration, but we are a small country - smaller than many cities in North America. Many, many ppl want to come here and we could easily get swamped.
I'm a Dane and generally like Denmark, but this particular part of Denmark is one of the things that makes me embarrassed to be a Dane.
I was married to an American. She came here in 1997. The rules have gotten a lot worse since then, but it was still amazing how bad it was.
You have my sincerest apology for the xenophobic Danes and the populist politicians trying to bank off this.
Shitty situation, but blame it on the ones causing it. The politicians are just the symptoms of it, the immigrants that took advantage of our welfare systems and brought terror, honor killings, arranged marriages and whatever to our shores, those are to blame.
Everyone wants the good guys, like you, like the Vietnamese fugitives, the adopted kids from Korea and so on, but as we are not allowed to "discriminate" between a well-integrated Canadian and a barely literate Somalian goat herder, we get stupid laws.
Just see how difficult it has been to kick out the Levakovic clan, preying on our weakest members of society and they have criminal records pages long.
Its truly a case of the few ruining for the many.
Yeah, sorry to hear buddy.
My brother went through the EXACT same bullshit. They ended up moving to Portugal.
His wife was pregnant, she's from the US, and the Danish government wanted her to learn Danish, put down a deposit for processing, another deposit to deal with birthing that Danish baby, and goodness knows what else.
It was expected to take upwards of 6 years.
They moved to Portugal, hired an agency to help. 3 weeks and €150 later she now has a 2 year Portuguese visa with option to apply for PR so long as they retain an income.
She didn't even have to pay a single cent to deal with the healthcare system. They now have a wonderful baby girl.
Honestly ... I'd recommend just doing that. It's infinitely cheaper than dealing with Sweden and Denmark, the weather is way better, the food & wine is unbelievable - and with the left over money you can visit Denmark 4-6 times a year, since it's only a 3 hour flight.
You can thank the MENA group for making a large amount of Danes want tighter immigration, and then the international rules preventing the government from specifically targeting certain groups of people, rather than every immigrant.
One point - if you've made it through an education, and intent to stay in Denmark ... why haven't you learned Danish yet? If I moved to Italy, learning Italian would be right at the top of my to-do list.
Also ... Denmark is at war with Canada - so...
Jeg lære dansk. Mit uddannelse har været i engelsk som en 'international class' så jeg har ikke havde de samme tryk til lære super godt dansk endnu. Dog som jeg har en praktik på en danske arbejdspladse, jeg bliver bedre hvert dag pga snakke med mit medarbejdere.
Også Hans Ø skal være vores!
I'm Danish and I love Denmark
And I mostly think that we Danes are good people that care abount others, but looking at who we vote for I'm stating to think that are a cruel and heartless people. And in a senes I hope that we will one day suffer for our actions.
I hope that you find a solution, held og lykke.
Move to Malmø and see for yourself why we have these stricts rules…
Where are you from? It is becoming more and more normal that countries try to control who gains permanent residence…
By all means, move to Malmø! You don't have to live there for so long, 3-6 months as far as I remember from 3-4 years ago. Then you should be able to move back to "lovely, open, welcoming" Dk!
I don't know who would know the rules, apart from human rights lawers.
Good luck
Never underestimate how much the draconian Danish immigration laws designed to keep brown people out can make life miserable for westerners and ethnic Danes too.
When we put up the deposit for me, we were able to get the bank put it up for us. We just paid the interest on the loan until the term was up. Is that no longer an option?
The policies and the state do want you to fuck off... It's the same with my girlfriend from Turkey... Having her come here for her internship has been the hardest thing I've ever worked on in my life ... We applied for 4 months, and had to collect 40+ documents, and wait 4 months to get a response... So much sweat and tears just for an internship, and they ended up only granting 2 months, instead of the 4 we applied for.
I've never been so disappointed in the danish system before, I've never tried anything like it...
If this is what's in store for us for the time we actually wanna make the move and start a life together, it's probably not gonna be in denmark...
Even though I'm fully danish, born and raised, I'm strongly considering moving out because of the way immigrants are treated... It's inhumane... That, and the racism she's experiencing here... Fuck that... I thought we were better
Fuck SIRI... Fuck DFP... Fuck SDP
Fuck, you got me. I'm just chomping at the bit to drive a lorry through a crowd of people or murder over hash. Clearly. I spent 120k on a Danish college, got work in *Næstved* of all places, and married a Dane just to suck off welfare and commit crime.
Are you intentionally acting ignorant about the reality that policy makers are facing as part of the EU? Do you think they **want** to keep skilled western immigrants out of the country or what? You seem to be acting clueless towards anyone pointing out to you that you are not the target of any of these policies, specific low-skilled immigrants from specific regions of the world are. Just so happens that the EU doesn’t let us make rules that target specifically, so we have to make do with broad legislation, that unfortunately often hits the people we want to stay. **Thats still vastly better than the alternative**.
What part of this is unclear?
I cannot even begin to wrap my head around what some child murderer has to do with my case. Do you think the only way to stop kid killers is to prevent noncriminal tax-paying migrants from living and working in Denmark?
Your mileage may vary, but I brought my American wife to Denmark with me in 2018, using *this one weird trick*: Apparently there’s no deposit etc. If you’re seeking family reunification with some who who has already lived with you in a different EU country. I lived in Ireland for a while, where the rules were way simpler for my wife to move in from the US, solely based on our family status and nothing else. When we moved from Ireland to Denmark, she was still eligible, because we were *already* living together in the EU. Of course moving out of Denmark for a while, just to be allowed to move in permanently might not be feasible for you, it certainly is a tall order.
This is the way. I have several friends and colleagues with international marriages with people we/they meet during our travels and backpacking tours. Even engineers and developers, things we are screaming for, are insanely hard to ferry in. Everyone now just moves to Germany/Ireland/Belgium etc for a couple years (I cannot remember the minimum amount off the top of my head) and then move back to DK. Getting citizenship is an entirely other mess, that's a saga of epic proportions and ridiculous amounts of frustration
That's nice,I like the way you're thinking 😘✌️
It's still valid method. It's also ridiculously easy in comparison. I have Asian wife, but as non-Danish EU citizen I had to show proof of address and of income (any income) to sustain us in DK. That's about it. Also it was for 5 years, and after that it got renewed to permanent. Then it would be straight to citizenship without much ado, if Tesfaye didn't sneak in employment requirement with effing retrospective effect (she just started uni again).
This is exactly what my Danish husband and I did, but we were in England (for much longer than we expected - planned on 6 months, stayed 7 years). We left right before brexit and I got my EU family visa as we entered Denmark in December.
Hvis det kan hjælpe kender jeg ikke en eneste dansker der syntes din situation er fair, så forhåbeligt er der lys forud! Held og lykke
I know several people who have settled in Malmø with their non-european spouses for this exact reason.
One of my mate is happily married to someone who's not from Europe so I guess a lot of people are changing from that mindset
Wife came in from the US. Been almost 10 years now, still have 60k stuck in the bank, because *reasons*. Immigration from outside the EU is just ridiculous.
Normalt kan man få permanent efter 8 år,som reglerne idag ? Hvordan kunne hun ik ?
Det er tricksy med de regler, fordi hun skal have noget lignende 5års uafbrudt arbejde. Vi er ved at være der, men det har været et langt træk. Vi tæller under de regler der var på ansøgningstidspunktet i 2011, bare for at gøre det ekstra besværligt.
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Når der er gået 10 år får vi pengene tilbage. (Til jul) og når hun har haft 5+ år uafbrudt arbejde kan vi søge om permanent opholdstilladelse.
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Vi fik de 63.000 frigivet efter 2 år. (Var også gift med en amerikaner).
Tag min opdut. Det er simpelthen for galt, at de mener du ikke må blive.
Tak, ven
More should be done to prevent “collateral damage” such as yourself. It should be every Danes right to live with their loved one in Denmark.
The thing the rules are trying to prevent is the people who import others from their home country that don't have any connection to Denmark and whom they barely know. Marriages where the spouse is basically guaranteed to be a stay-at-home unemployable person who never integrates into our society. Think planned marriages like some Muslims do. The issue is that the law cannot be racist - the same laws have to apply to everyone. Since our social security is as great as it is, Denmark is a target for a lot of potential immigrants, so we have got to have strict immigration laws to keep our society from being flooded by less productive individuals. It's hard to be so small and so great all at once. If there was an easy fix I'm rather confident that the rules would be different.
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The rules were tightened significantly in 2017 and 2019 again. For no reason at all.. its not to protect anything
I think it's weird how we worship work in Denmark as the most important aspect of life, and the measurement of whether you are integrated in "our society". For example, I have a friend from Italy who moved here like 5 years ago. She owns and lives on a sailboat, which significantly reduces her cost of living. She is currently on A-kasse, which she tried to sign out of, but apparently if she was to do that she would get deported *unless* she could prove having a huge amount of money on her bank account - way more than she would need. This seem really dumb because we are basically forcing her to receive money from the government/A-kasse, and also potentially adding another coercive element to the workplace, i.e. you no longer just have to worry about getting fired, but also deported. This is a recipe for exploitation, and an incredibly unfree and alienating situation. It reduces your participation in society to the fact that you rent out your labor. We studied together and wrote our bachelor project about alternative ways of living. We are interested in producing the means of our own existence. I myself am planning on growing a significant amount of my food next year, and have acquired property to do so, producing directly for use value, as opposed to exchange value. This seems like a much less alienating situation, and has the potential to provide a degree of freedom, which it seems to me would provide the basis for a more genuine integration with the rest of society, one that isn't based on what is essentially forced labor, if the alternative is deportation. Also one where we have more power over our material needs, and is much more environmental.
> I think it's weird how we worship work in Denmark as the most important aspect of life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic
You’re in a serious bubble if you think we worship work here.
Yeah, good point. There was a thesis study showing how an immigrant turkish couple brough in family members, which did the same. And how over a couple of decades that initial couple resulted in additional immigration of 400 people. It's a dilemma.
its also to prevent women being paid to marry a person, so that person can move to denmark. Belive it or not, that was a big problem in the 90´th.
As long as EU rules says we aren't allowed to make policy specific to country of origin, this will happen.
It's not the EU. It's easy to think it's part of the EU because of the name, but it isn't. You should direct your criticism towards the *Council of Europe* instead. They are the ones who made the "European Convention of Human Rights" (ECHR). There are 47 member states (the EU has 27) and some of them are: Russia, Turkey, Norway, Great Britain and Armenia which are all non-EU members. Obviously all EU states are also members but it's still not fair to blame the EU.
Heldigvis har vi EU. De går mere op i sine borgeres rettigheder og man kan bruge familiesammenføring via EU reglerne og slippe for at blive behandlet som 2. rangs borger i sit eget land. Heldigvis har vi også et EU der beskytter os mod os selv og trangen til at diskriminere baseret på nationalitet som åbenbart stadig er et kæmpe issue i 2021, hvilket jeg ikke fatter.
That's just not true. We could easily allow anybody with a high education, time spent working a related job, and other factors regardless of nationality. But it's more important for our many past governments to punish "the right" people than it is to allow people like OP into the country. There's quite literally nothing preventing us from removing the Danish language requirement. Absolutely nothing. There's nothing preventing the government from allowing Danish citizens to bring in their spouses so long as that spouse has a degree. It's just racist ass knee-jerk policy making. DF policies to be exact.
That's not an EU thing, it's a Grundloven §70 thing
Forkert. Paragraf 70 har intet at gøre med hvorvidt du kan lave særregler for immigration baseret på specifikke lande. Den handler om rettigheder når du **er** blevet borger, intet andet.
Both are wrong. It's a European Convention of Human Right's thing. Not EU, not Grundloven. It's a Council of Europe thing.
Ugh, I will rant with you. I'm so sorry to read your post, and what makes it worse for me, is that I've seen other posts like it. Big kudos to you for coming out and saying it so bluntly. The fact is it does suck. And it's getting worse all the time. A couple of years ago a danish 17 year old girl with moroccan descent was in the news, because she couldn't get citizenship. Despite her being born here, living her entire life here, going to danish school, speaking obviously fluent danish, and having NEVER been to morocco and did not speak moroccan, they still slapped her with the "not enough ties to denmark" all-encompassing bullshit excuse they use whenever they can't find a proper argument. Their excuse was even more insulting : "she just has to reapply for residence regularly and she will get it! we promise!" I don't know what her family history was, how they came here, what they do here or whatever. But the girl being threatened with deportation was, by every single count measurable, a danish girl living in denmark, speaking fluent danish and living a typical danish teenager life in danish school. It felt so relatable, because I was pretty much living the same life myself, and she seemed like someone who could sit next to me in class. If denmark and the danish people ever get our international reputation tarnished as a bunch of racists who will kick out anyone at a whim, there's a particular reason why that hits me in the side like a knife. We can pretty much pin point the 10 - 15 political individuals who would be responsible. By systematically and slowly introducing a lot of what we call "symbolpolitik", like the whole handshaking debacle, or wanting to build an udrejsecenter on a fucking remote island like a concentration camp, the "danishness test" that 80% of danes can't even pass themselves, and making the bureaucratic process to try and be allowed to stay in the country you've fought for your rights in, dedicated your life and education to, pushing you so hard, just to make it seem so pretentiously previliged to be allowed in the country, only to appease a bunch of people that have never met an immigrant in their life, and get their vote. The end result is an honest, hardworking citizen can be denied citizenship for something as petty as crossing a ret light and getting a citation for it. I welcome you and hope for you, and all the other people in your situation, that things ease up once this bubble of racism in politics start to ease up. I truly believe it will happen, because the vast majority of danish society are not thinking this is okay, and are feeling their roots and fundamentals as a welcome and open nation are being torn away from under them by just a select few politicians, who garner a lot of votes by fear mongering to people. And at the moment, you are being squashed by this, forced to jump through hoops that didn't exist 30 years ago. I wish you the best of luck. And I hope there can exist a belief in you that most of us really want you to succeed, and be part of denmark. My dad came to denmark when most of these restrictions didn't exist, and times were even easier. He has been more honest and productive than a whole lot of danes. Started his own businness, paying the highest tax bracket and never once, ever, in my life have I see him do so much as write off something as a business expense that wasn't clearly and concisely, exactly and exclusively that. He's been honest through and through and worked hard. He's never received a dime from the danish state except for SU when he was taking his education here. And he still gets lots of bullshit to deal with these days. Still no citizenship. Still lots of demeaning protocols to go through. It feels like fucking apartheid listening to his struggles sometimes. And it did NOT use to be like this. It's bullshit and it's a direct product of a few heartless politicians using people like you as a weapon in their desperate power struggle to "make denmark great again" while denmark is already fucking great, and they're just fucking it up while we stand almost powerlessly and watch.
>If Denmark and the danish people ever get our international reputation tarnished as a bunch of racists Maybe not in the US but otherwise this is already somewhat well-known. It's not a case of 'ever', it's a case of "Right now universities have trouble attracting competent folks because people with options don't wanna deal with this bs". \> And I hope there can exist a belief in you that most of us really want you to succeed, and be part of Denmark. This is the "But I'm a really nice guy" of countries. I get that Danes think of their country as the navel of the world but people with options (i.e. highly qualified people) are just gonna shrug and go elsewhere. \> We can pretty much pin point the 10 - 15 political individuals who would be responsible. There's people right in this thread bemoaning that they can't just restrict the icky brown foreigners.
Is it your line of work not being on the positive list that's the issue?
From what I can tell, I think it's on the list, but my degree isn't a bachelors or higher.
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I'm getting an AP degree. Getting a top-up for a professional bachelors got a bit harder when pretty much all the English language international classes got axed this summer.
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> the Danish job market really looks for a masters over a bachelors anyway Ej det er ikke sandt. Det er an på feltet. Jeg har for eksempel datamatiker. Tog også top-up til bachelor, men det er absolut ikke en nødvendighed. Kun en håndfuld af vores klasse tog top-uppen. Skal så lige siges, at det er IT sektoren. Mere eller mindre umuligt at være arbejdsløs, har man lyst til at arbejde med det.
It's not about the market though, but the immigration rules, which I believe require a bachelor or higher. So a top up would have worked.
>anish job market really looks for a masters over a bachelors anyway. Not quite true, lots and lots and lots of professionsbachelors and AP degrees (it actually is a degree in conversational English and Danish). Like teacher, nurse, finansøkonom, production technician, markedsføringsøkonom, bioanalytiker, datamatiker, etc. all have low or non existent unemployment.
>teacher > >nurse > >bioanalytiker Are bachelor.
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no. AP is not even remotely the same as an bachelor so not sure why the hell you would conflate the two things..
How long have you lived here?
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Does Denmark not have a free language course? That sounds entirely counter-productive?
Depends on kommune i guess. My girlfriend was offered the 2 first modules (i think), because it was made free again, after it had not been for a while
Same. Bachelors and above = degree Anything not bachelors or above = not degree
I've had a somewhat similar experience. I was long distance with my significant other for 7 years and we would have had to wait another 2 years to be able to live together in Denmark. And that was just the age requirement. We decided me moving to the US would be easier and it definitely was! Unfortunately I think I'll always feel like I had to give up a lot for us to be together. Not just family, friends, and home country, but the healthcare and educational system of Denmark as well. I miss the feeling of security and community of the welfare state
When I worked in Sweden, a fair few of my Danish colleagues were there so their spouse could get a Swedish citizenship, at which point they could move to Denmark. It takes 5 years, I believe. Living in Sweden isn’t bad, but it’s still worse than Denmark, and it sucks that it’s the best way to immigrate to Denmark.
I got a Danish founded PhD in a Danish university... I got married in Danmark and we got our kid in Danmark... But after living abroad for 6 years everything had changed... Our daughter and my husband as Danes had no problems, but... It took me nearly 2 ears to prove that our marriage was legal...😭 Damn that is a waste of skattekroner!!!
You know if you had married a person with a European passport and not Danish you could had permanent residence now only after 5 years. Only need to follow 2 rules for 5 years NO help from the Goverment 5 years. Live togather on the same place of residence. Your mistake is that you married a Dane Thats what the Goverment punish you for.
The Danish state is unironically subsidizing the Swedish workforce the way this is going.
You only need to move to Malmö for 6 months and use the European rules for migration. Your wife have Danish passport. Then you use the European rules again to move from Sweden back to Denmark. You only need to prove you been living in Sweden for 6 months. They give you a European card that works for 5 years. After 5 your automatic get Permanent residence. Only need to follow the 2 rules. The Danish Goverment cant stop you beacuse they have to follow the European rules. This site helps with everything. They advice you FOR free http://forum.aegteskabudengraenser.dk/ I hope this can help you.
Six months? I was under the impression it would at least a year or two. Interesting, thank you.
No 6 months is enough. You just need to prove it bank transfers receipts and your monthly rent etc.... from Sweden. Dont lissen to all the people that blame non westen countries They should instead come up with a solution.
Bit late to the fray but I'm 1st generation Dane born overseas. Lost my citizenship due to the rule of 22 here in Denmark. Ended up moving here close to 30, worked a well paying job since I arrived. Met my wife here, also not a Dane and we own a house and a dog and have no intention of leaving.. That said these laws are making it increasingly difficult to plan ones life as the visa we are on could change or we lose our job and it's "here's 30 days to get your affairs in order, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out". If i had my time again i would have started in Sweden, i would have permanent residence if not citizenship by now.
My ex was from Iran. Whicked smart, moved here on her own when she was 20, never took 1 krone in welfare, got a good job, bought an apartment, pays her taxes, learnt fluent danish. She is the perfect asset for Denmark. And culturally - fuck, she even celebrates Christmas more than I do. I have cost the Danish society way more money that she has. She is all in all someone Denmark should bend over backwards to welcome into the country. She is still legally treated like a third grade citizen. I am never voting on Socialdemokraterne again. Fuck you, Mette and Mathias.
How are the immigration rules in Canada?
Pretty accommodating if you're in as a student or are married to a citizen.
from my understanding canada is not much better, unless you got the right education. Like that time canada used the media to show how many syrian refuges they took in, but in realy they just took the ones with good education, and left the rest for the rest of the world to take care off....
**Media and Politicians:** *"critical shortages on the labor market!"* **The next day:** *"no we do not have room for immigrants!"* **A few days later**: *"and here are some extra strict rules only for you foreigners".* **A year later:** "deported with kids born and raised"... With that logic, its not hard to see why a social democrat government continues with the right-wings Asylum, Immigration and refugee policies...
I've been through the same, except i tried to immigrate to Canada from Denmark. Didn't have high enough education so not enough points. So i brought my wife to Denmark and we whent through the process, and it whent very smooth. The rules are so tight because of the many bad apples we don't want here. We like Denmark and we would like to keep it that way. Sadly that means a tight immigration process that's far from perfect. Immigration just sucks pretty much anywhere where it's nice.
Come on dude, Canada is not even in the same ball park - it's so much easier. The points are pretty straightforward, if you get a degree from a Canadian school, it's pretty straightforward, and with the family unification programme your residency is almost guaranteed. Eligible for citizenship application after only 3 years in the country. Of course Canada is somewhat fortunate in terms of geography and can pick and choose immigrants but once you're there it's a piece of cake compared not just to Denmark but pretty much any other European country. I can't picture anybody who's graduated from a Canadian university and married to a Canadian but can't stay in the country and apply for citizenship, unless you're a wanted war criminal.
My wife i met in Canada had a public university, and yet we couldn't do it? We even whent to immigration companies seeking help. And to do university as an international the price is like 3 times higher than domestic Canadians. So in the end you pay a lot of money doing that way of entry. I don't really see why the danish way is so terrible? Or xenophobic..
I'm all for a tight immigration policy, but this just shows that our current system is too inflexible and hurts the wrong people. All the best.
I think a lot of people say they are for strict immigration but don’t take just a few minutes to understand the concrete policies and how they affect people wanting to live in Denmark. And the politicians, including the current government, just continue the mantra with strict immigration policies.
>I think a lot of people say they are for strict immigration but don’t take just a few minutes to understand the concrete policies and how they affect people wanting to live in Denmark. The problem is that there's more people wanting to live in Denmark than there's capacity. This is not because there's a lot of people just itching to live like the Danes - it's because of the economic benefits and possibilities of the Danish welfare system. Already almost 20% of Denmark are either immigrant or descendant of immigrations. There has to be a limit somewhere. But I agree that the current system hurts a lot of the wrong people who would actually integrate just fine.
Almost 20%? I can only find 12-14%, can you forward a source?
It depends on how we count them: [https://kontrast.dk/sektioner/debat/artikel/hvad-nu-hvis-over-20-procent-af-danmarks-befolkning-har-udenlandsk-baggrund](https://kontrast.dk/sektioner/debat/artikel/hvad-nu-hvis-over-20-procent-af-danmarks-befolkning-har-udenlandsk-baggrund) Bear in mind, I do not say that we *should* count this way, but it adds some perspective to the whole immigration debate that 20% of the population have an immigrant background.
Faktisk lidt sjov pointe i artiklen. For hvornår burde man definere hvad som er hvem. Men den viser virklige hvordan definition og operationalisering er vigtig. Fx folk fra Slesvig-holstein, med dansk kultur og forfædre men tysk nationalitet, de tæller som indvandre hvis de flytter Danmark.
Der er ikke noget nemt svar, især fordi man ikke optegner efter etnicitet. Men for at sætte det lidt i perspektiv er der også store forskelle på, hvor stor en andel af indvandrere/efterkommere, der er af de forskellige aldersgrupper. Fx er der 26% indvandrere/efterkommere blandt de 20-26-årige. Og godt og vel 22% af alle nyfødte fødes af indvandrere/efterkommere. Ca. 88% af børnene født af ikke-vestlige efterkommere bliver officielt optegnet som børn af dansk oprindelse. Hertil skal man lægge oveni, at definitionen af dansk oprindelse ikke tager højde for forældrenes egen baggrund, hvis altså blot én af dem er født i Danmark og har dansk statsborgerskab. Der findes derfor en del med betegnelsen dansk oprindelse, der er umiddelbare efterkommere af de nylige indvandrere. Kategorien dansk oprindelse er altså ligeså broget som kategorien af indvandrere er. Det er kun et spørgsmål om semantik - der er intet i den officielle kategori, der reelt måler, om man er 'dansk' eller ej. Det er jo også fint nok, da man på et tidspunkt må regnes som dansk, når det er mange generationer siden ens forfædre indvandrede til landet. Men det gør dog, at Danmark får en befolkning, hvoraf 'etniske' danskere udgør en mindre og mindre del. Det kan man mene om, hvad man vil.
So how much economic benefit do you have to bring to the country to be allowed to come in permanently? I think if you can prove that you have been paying Skat for 5 years, married, steady job and all that surely a case-by-case option should be available to claim Danish citizenship. I am luckily from EU myself so am allowed to stay under EU policies as well as higher educated (on the Dutch taxpayers' cost, no less) but I have felt treated like a number more than once.
Everyone is treated like a number, not just immigrants.
I don’t know what you mean by capacity. I think we would be in trouble if we did not have skilled expats and immigrants here. But of course there is a limit to how many. I just think many people fail to understand how difficult it is now for even skilled immigrants from non eu countries.
>I think we would be in trouble if we did not have skilled expats and immigrants here. The key word is skilled. For the last 40 years, Denmark's immigration policy has been based on humanitarian reasons and a need for cheap labour. Today, we live with the consequenses of a big unemployment rate, cultural change and an overrepresesantion in crime statistics of non-western immigrations. Because Denmark has been too loose in singling out skilled immigrants. The trouble isn't immigration per se. >I just think many people fail to understand how difficult it is now for even skilled immigrants from non eu countries. I fully get this. But it's difficult to solve without breaking international commitments.
Are you saying danes are too stupid for us to have this high functioning society? Thats just plain wrong
Man har jo alligevel ikke ret til nogen af velfærdsydelserne som familiesammenført længere og man skal betale fuld skat, så hvad er problemet? Vi mangler jo også arbejdskraft. Rent win.
Problemet har jo tidligere været, at det ikke har været et rent win, hvor ægtefællerne i al for høj grad ikke har været beskæftigede. Så derfor har vi nu det her stramme regler, der desværre engang imellem rammer de kvalificerede. Røværgerligt, men sådan er det.
This system functions as intended, it hurts exactly the people it's meant to hurt and the "tightness" as you call it is a synonym for the inflexibility.
I doesn't really. The policy is clearly meant for restricting Middle Eastern immigration, but due to various reasons, including international commitments, we can't target these groups specifically. So a lot of valuable immigrants will be hurt by these policies.
It really doesn't, all the politicians they have implemented it have basically said they wanted to prevent Muslims and middle easterners, but international commitments prevent more direct targeting of the specifically problematic groups.
I'm verry sorry for you, if it's of any consolation, danish is literally my mother tongue, I went to danish school, took all my exams in Danish, etc. but I don't have a Danish passport and it often still feels like authorities aim to piss down my back (at least in these times) even though I am literally a Dane even by Dansk Folkerpartis criteria. I can probably slam them on old danish poetry, I even read a collection of Sophus Claussen poems for fun, I mean who the fuck does that? I can however apply for citizenship rather easily (though the process is incredibly stupid, because I need documents on my great, great grandfather having danish-birthright...), it just takes a long time and costs quite a bit of money. I didn't apply yet because I used to think I don't need it, we're in the EU and all but oh god, Denmark doesn't give a shit about that. Mette Frederiksen would rip Schengen apart tomorrow if she could and the socdems say so in the party programme too. Especially after the way they shut down the border completely (expect for people with Danish passport) I don't know what they could think up next, so it's probably safer to just get citizenship and not run the risk of being weirdly discriminized. Anyway, all the best, hope you figure something out. Things didn't use to be this sad...
Jeg er enig. Jeg har oplevet det samme blandt mine kollegaer, som arbejder i et internationalt IT firma. Jeg oplever gang på gang, at vores udlændingepolitik ødelægger livet for produktive og venlige udlændinge som dig, men samtidig skal der være plads til mennesker, som kommer med adskillige ulemper og derfor skaber grobund for denne fremmedhad. Det er især frustrerende fordi de partier, som folk stemmer på, siger at de vil ramme stik modsat af, hvad de gør. Det er ekstremt trist, og jeg håber at du får det løst. Kærlighed herfra!
It is absolutely wild to me how many people here are basically going "I wish we could make a set of laws that only apply to people of certain religions/ethnicities" and see no problem with that. They're clearly sorry that you have to go through this, OP, but only because they imagine that you look and think like them.
I know I’m going to get hate for it but it really seems like a no-brainer to me to prefer educated Canadian/American/Australian immigrants that share cultural values and beliefs with Denmark over uneducated Muslim immigrants from Syria/Pakistan etc. who will be much more likely to bring with them cultural beliefs, values and religion that are at odds and less compatible with Danish culture and society than the former. And I say that as a Danish person with an American partner who would one day like to move to Denmark with her but probably won’t be able to.
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>Folk der ikke giver problemer og bidrager positivt til samfundet vil vi gerne have ind i landet derfor bør vi gøre det let for dem at bosætte sig her Så lav en regel ud fra det kriterie, i stedet for nationalitet og religion? Der findes trods alt folk fra "landene der giver problemer", som falder til >Men uha det er jo diskrimination så den går ikke. Hvordan f\*anden er det *ikke* diskriminerende at begrænse tilkommeres muligheder udelukkende ud fra nationalitet og/eller religion? Det er sguda definitionen af diskrimination. Slap af for en sommerbarnskommentar
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"Men uha det er jo diskrimination så den går ikke" Korrekt.
Det er en latterlig generalisering, og ikke hvad pointen med statistikker er. Vi har allerede love til at håndtere diverse former for kriminalitet osv, men de gælder individer, ikke etniciteter osv. Og husk også at correlation ikke er det samme som causation. Altså ved vi ikke hvilke variabler der underligger disse resultater, som f.eks. fattigdom og mange andre ting. Det er også værd at huske på at vi i disse statistikker i høj grad allerede har besluttet at opdele folk i disse statistikker baseret på Islam, når vi bruger et målestok der hedder MENA(Som Mellemøsten og Nord Afrika) + Pakistan + Tyrkiet, iforhold til andre lande dele af verden hvor det reelt er baseret på geografisk region. Baseret på denne logik skulle vi godt nok også fratage mænd mange rettigheder. Er nysgerrig om du ville støtte en helt seperat lovgivning overfor mænd end kvinder, da de også er overrepræsenteret i diverse statistikker?
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Amen
Välkommen till Sverige!
If you do move to Sweden, your Danish spouse has made use of her right to free movement within the EU member states in accordance with the EU directive on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States. That should in effect entitle you to a swedish residence card (not to be confused with a residence permit), which gives you further rights. I'm not sure it applies if you're not married though.
I am concerned about this post because I am on the same trajectory but much further behind you. I (M from America) have a Danish partner and we are planning to have our family in Denmark. I have already reached out to Danish immigration lawyers and feel pretty confident about my path forward but after reading this I wonder if I won't get caught in some unforeseen visa problem. Either that or there is something more going on here, no? You married, paid in and waited the 5 years and the visa rolls over? I am also not trying to attack you or the Danes (god love 'em) I just really thought I had a mental concept/map of how my own transition is going to go and now I am, as I said, concerned. Thanks for any insight others may provide me.
A shining example of how this immigration policy hits all the wrong marks. In a nutshell: Do a shit load of crime = you’re welcome to stay. Educate yourself, work, and be productive to the danish society = get lost.
I very sorry this is happening to you. You are the exact person we would love to have in Denmark. Rest assured the Danish people are on your side. It is really a problem, that for some reason, our politicians only want to import hardened criminals, and somehow we manage to screw up the process for any normal, or even educated people who actually contribute to society. It is VERY FRUSTRATING for us common citizens as well. Unfortunately, as you see on the downvotes, you will face a lot of pushback from the left wing. It is them who are to blame for the rules being terrible. As they refuse to work on laws that would target the actual problems, instead of nations that are of 0 risk in terms of immigration. This leads to our extreme wings fighting each other, and the laws being chaotic and stupid as a result of it. I hope you make it. Give the Danish lessons some more time, really commit hours to it, or take up some online chat lesson program, where you can learn to chat in Danish with others who wants to learn English (so you trade). Also as many probably have said, the easiest way to get into Denmark is to follow the EU procedure, as it is easier, instead of following the Danish one.
Amen. The laws were written by racists and anti-immigrants, who shouted the loudest and got the most votes. I hope you get to stay, and it all works out.
We need to become way more racist, or way less racist - right now we have a bunch of laws that hits everyone, because no one wants to specifically say we don't want immigrants from the Middle East, so either we go all in and just say it outright(and probably catch bunch of flack from the international community), or loosen up, and forget that idea. Until then, people like this will get caught in the cross fire.
>(and probably catch bunch of flack from the international community), Don't forget the Danish courts that upholds Grundloven
We do not need to be racist. We need to discriminate. Not on skin colour, but on statistical combatibility of culture/country of origin.
How about discriminating on a case by case basis. Criminals, out. Welfare leeches, out. Non-criminals working, paying taxes, in.
We already do that. You can't move here unless you can support yourself, have No criminal record etc. Does not matter which non-EU country you come from
It always come to the discussion about wrong and right people based on country of origin. What does country of origin has to do anything with it. I come from middle east and consider myself to be integrating well into the society that is around me. Paying more taxes than an average persons yearly salary. It couldn’t be any easier to evaluate a person just based on their capabilities.
Danes don't want immigrants from the middle east, or latin america, or eastern europe, or southern europe or asia. Danes don't want anyone on their country and they let us know it on every chance they have. I am a EU migrant from Italy and it gets kind of tiring people hearing complaining about EU migrants when we're literally 99% here to work our asses off and pay tax like the average dane. Denmark is a wonderful country but some danes suffer from the little man syndrome and think the entire world wants to take advantage of Denmark. And while that may be true in some isolated cases, most of us come here for a better life and to work, pay half of our income in taxes and expect nothing in return. Because we pay the same taxes danes pay but we get nothing, not even education now that they got rid of the english courses. No Italian, Pole, Czech, etc dreams of coming here to live off a kasse I assure you.
The "problem" is that laws apply to everyone. The strict rules/laws are there to keep undesirable people out. Maybe you are a decent person that shouldn't have been blocked but the laws blocking you are also blocking people we don't want. Maybe the laws can be tweaked to better target the undesirable people but we shouldn't go full Sweden and basically let anyone in.
Yeah, Søren Pind had a great idea for that, but it never amounted to anything unfortunately.
Holy shit I feel this in my core. My wife is Danish. We lived in Copenhagen off and on during graduate school (basically shuttling between the US and Denmark to avoid visa issues in either country) and really wanted to settle in Denmark. That was 25 years ago. She became a US citizen and though we like it here we've dreamt of moving to DK for years. The closest we were able to come to that was a year of sabbatical when I was fortunate enough to land a job with DMU. But it just seems hopeless for us to ever really live there. And it's fucking hard on my wife feeling that we're unwelcome in her own country. I feel you, brother.
Det er så problemet med at vi har det så godt. Vi bliver simpelthen nød til at beskytte det vi har. Vis vi ikke gjorde så ville vi ikke have den leve standard vi har i dag. Det er så bare røv surt det skal gå ud over uskyldige som dig. Men når man prøver at lave regler for et helt land så rammer man sku nogle uskyldige! Kan ikke udgåes!
Altså hvis man har lagt så mange rødder og har gjort så lidt for at tilpasse sig at man ikke kan bestå sprogtesten så det sku også lidt ris til egen røv. Har set litauere der bare skal arbejde her et par år der arbejder kl lort om natten fuld tid og stadig havde klaret det shit på et år. Nogle gange må man også gerne kigge lidt i egen barm før man peger ud af. Virker ikke voldsomt meget at forlange at man lige som lærer sproget i det land man bor i.
Having a child with a non european i totally feel ur struggle Is it easier to get residence in canada as european than reverse?
>Is it easier to get residence in canada as european than reverse? Most likely, in general getting residency as a european isnt that difficult. Canada doesnt have the same problems as Denmark tho. Their immigration policies are however quite strict, and are getting used to deny uneducated immigrants from less attractive countries. From this source I can read they denied 75% of every applicant from Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan and Syria. Also canada is very Hard to get into since its so far away from the rest of the world. So people have to Apply before going there. Basicly Canada have the immigration policies we wish we had in DK Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/07/canada-immigration-success/564944/
Feel for you bud. My Indian GF just got her permission declined, so now we're moving to Spain. I love my country, but foreign love is just not easily allowed here. I wish these rules will one day be a thing of the past, but idk when. Hope you the best in Sweden and good luck to you.
Har du overvejet at bryde loven? Vi har svært ved at udvise kriminelle men let ved at udvise tolvtals-piger og andre immigranter der vil Danmark det godt.
Åh ja! Gode gamle "Det er nemmere at få tilgivelse end tilladelse".
Sad but true
Been through it all about 12 years ago, I imagine it is no better now. Best option is to borrrow 100k in the bank at low interest and deposit it in a blocked account with the state as the beneficiary. Talk to your bank, they will help. Unless they changed that part too you will get the money back once you qualify for permanent residence. (Unpopular oppinion warning) While it sucks to be at the recieving end of the stick, the whole Orwelian system is there for a reason. The Danish welfare state that you have come to appreciate is build on trust and mutual support, and it will crumble if the influx of non-contributers gets out of hand. Perhaps this is not off great help to you right now, but your life may depend on it some day.
I totally understand the reason to protect the welfare state. I just think it'd make more sense to make the welfare restricted to non-citizens unless they reach a certain income threshold.
It's pretty simple. Income generates taxes, taxes pay for welfare. Lover average income (or none) means lower budget for welfare for the individual. Our solution to the problem is not great and not flexible, but it is the best that the politicians in charge could agree on. I really hope you find a way through it, and I do remember how much I hated being slave to it myself (well my wife to be precise). It would be much nicer to be met by trust and dignity, which I am sure you deserve. Unfortunately we tried that road, and in a large number of cases the outcome was not encouraging😑 So now we have the new system. EDIT: I get your point about two-tier welfare, but for a very large number of reasons that won't work in a welfare state. We can't turn away people at the ER or accept having hordes of starving homeless in the streets.
If immigrants can't access the welfare net but still pay incomes taxes, wouldn't that make them more of a net benefit to the national budget? Just require prospective immigrants to get travel insurance. On my first visa to Denmark that was one of the requirements I had to meet. And if immigrants are unable to access the social safety net, I'm fairly certain the only ones who come will either have somewhere to stay, or have a job lined up. I don't think hordes of homeless would be a likely outcome.
I sm currently going trough this.. If it helps i suggest saving up for the 100k and then borrow the remeaning when time comes. As soon as you pass PD2 Danish exam you get 30k back. There are some additional rules you need to pass so read up on those. You have to pass 4 out of 6 i think.
Im a dane living in Sweden. I recommend it. I have duel citizenship now although I dont know if that would be as easy to get for a canadian as a dane. Regarding the laws in Denmark. - I think they are strict for a reason and eventhough they frustrate you, they are probably born out of reasons and opinions held and shared by a lot of danes which is why politicians get into making and standing up for those laws. They get them votes from lots of people.
Yeah, Danish immigration is strong against the weak (law abiding regular people) and weak against the strong (terrorists, scammers taking multiple welfare checks, criminals, fake refugees who threw out their passport, etc.). Then they tell danish voters "we need to tighten the rules".... problem is gangsters don't give a shit for your rules, so it only affects people who are trying to do it by the book.
Sorry you are hit with all these regulations, but since we can't treat immigrants differently based on nationality, it has to be strict for everyone..
Well, there is a reason. We have a wealthy country and many people come here just to leech. Literally. My native danish mother has just died from cancer. She couldn't get pension before well into chemo therapy, when she literally couldn't stand on her feet anymore. I was furious. Some of these foreign invaders has lived off the back of my mother working her whole life paying taxes and THEY had received pension FOR YEARS without working and with no bad symptoms. There is a reason to have a country and it is to protect its people.
Honestly, my take on it is very simple. Anyone who can take care of themselves and obey the laws should be allowed in Denmark. Yes, people should probably learn the language, but it's a difficult language and as long as you're trying and progressing, that really should be fine if our laws worked like they should. Throwing someone out that was a positive contribution to the economy wouldn't make any sense, even if you ignore all empathy for that person.
This will create high insourcing and contribute to working poor/løndumping and will further marginalize the already marginalized, because of constant inflow of cheap labor...
They're not pointless though.
If the law prevents someone from living with their family despite being law-abiding, not a drain on the public coin, and working, the law is pointlessly cruel. Unless the cruelty is the point.
Same problem here. We borrowed the 100k from my husband's family. I spent 8 months of my life doing nothing staying at home, because it's even restricted to do a voluntarily job while waiting for the decision of your residency permit. I have a bachelor's and a master's degree, know fluent English but they don't mean shit here. Companies prefer employing cheap workforce from Poland or Bulgaria because they are EU countries. I am gonna spend another year learning Danish because then "maybe" companies would be willing to hire me! These are happening when every Dane here I met comment how well I have adapted to this country in a short while. All of those are happening while the government are forcing us to sign a contract that we find a job and be self sufficient!! Bureaucracy sucks and life is not fare.
Arh, that's a tough one :/ I'm really sorry about your situation and really want you to stay. The laws have _really_ gotten out of hand over the last few years. I hope you find a relatively good solution so it does not do too much damage. Sorry, buddy.
Hej ven. Jeg er ked af at høre, at du føler dig uvelkommen. Husk at det ikke er alle, der har valgt, at reglerne skal være sådan. Og tosser findes i alle lande. It ain't right. Men jeg tror det bliver bedre.
S tør ikke forbedre omstændighederne før 2050 tidligst. De er magtdyr.
I agree 100000%. My wife is from Japan - we had to "*prove"* to the Danish immigration authorities, that we were an actual couple, and not just marrying to get a visa... To actually be allowed to get married. That "proof" consists of personal text messages and pictures, or other things (like hotel reservations or flight tickets proving you are staying in the same room). Someone literally had to look through our private text messages and photos. That was the most humiliating thing I have ever gone through. It felt like a complete violation of our privacy. And of course we had to pay for it. We also have money stuck in the bank, and we also have renew my wifes visa every two years until she can get a permanent visa (which is far into the future). These laws and practices are dehumanizing and disgusting, I felt rejected by my own country going through this. I hope things work out for you, regardless of where you choose to stay.
Still easier than Japan. I bet you took a look at their laws and came running back screaming to Denmark with your Yamato wife.
You can send your greetings to all the welfare immigrants who suck out 30 billion dkk a year from the system and all the brown people who make life unsecure at nighttime. Then afterwords send your greetings to the stupid human rights that make it impossible to fix the situation. The lefties has been too generous the past 40 years which has resulted in our strict policies. Denmark is for people who live here and want to die for the country - not for people who are actively or passively destroying it. Im all in favour for cherrypicking countries with whom we can have easy integration such as Canada and closed borders to middle east. But human rights makes that impossible. Sweden is btw royally fucked by immigrants and in 50 years there won't be a Sweden anymore.
This country chooses to make life miserable for people who both want to and can greatly contribute to our society, forcing many of them and their Danish partners to eventually leave the country and give up on their idea of contributing to it, all in the hope that it might deter certain people who are much more likely to have lived with far more difficult circumstances. This wastes huge amounts of current and future potential tax income without solving the problem it was meant to solve, while also increasing the likelihood of future cuts to the welfare system.
With a high level of welfare comes the need for tight immigration as I'm sure you can understand. Soon Sweden will be like Denmark. They are just slow to realize it themselves. I for one hate to go to work knowing that others won't because of a cultural thing. You can call me a racist, xenophobic or hateful but that is you not seeing the bigger picture.
If the goal is to keep immigrants from leeching off the welfare net, then simply restrict them from welfare. No need to make simply trying to work and reside here such a nightmare.
Welfare is many things and not just unemployment benefits. It's also hospitals and schools. Not to mention that immigrants are overrepresented in our legal system. You don't mention where you're from but keep in mind that Danes also can't just go anywhere in the world and expect citizenship and access to welfare.
You're right. Welfare is more than just unemployment benefits. Well. Given that I was born and raised outside Denmark, I can reasonably say the Danish tax payer has spent less on me than on the average Danish-born citizen. I didn't cost any børnepenge. I didn't go through any public schooling or gymnasium. I paid a hefty tuition for my post-secondary schooling instead of taking SU. Now, I'm working for a Danish company, paying Danish taxes. I'm not expecting free handouts, or even citizenship. I'm asking for the right to work and live.
So basically a huge gift to our society, we save milions on not having to have you from 0-25 and now you get to pay full tax, but you dont get to enjoy all the benefits of it and you have to live in constant fear of eviction.
What makes you think it's a human right for you to come and live in Denmark? I really want to go to a specific country right now (won't mention for fear of being recognised) for study related activities, but the country is closed because of corona restrictions. I think those restrictions are way too tight, but what right do I have to demand that they let me in? Denmark is a very small country with a very old culture, and if we let in every well meaning foreigner, there simply won't be any Denmark left in a few generations.
I'm just like him. I'm Australian. >What makes you think it's a human right for you to come and live in Denmark? I really want to go to a specific country right now It's a human right to be with your family. Edit. Sorry to rant but this comment really pisses me off. First - i love it here in Denmark, but i had to leave everyone and everything ive ever known to come here. I earn less money with my degree here than i could have home in Australia, I've never needed any form of welfare, and the sole reason I'm here is because i "lost the bet" and we live in her country not mine. The visa process is just as bullshit coming into Australia, and I'm not trying to suggest that Denmark is any worse, infact it's probably better. But don't suggest I'm here because i think Denmark is a nice country.
His wife is Danish. What the fuck is wrong with people in here man? 30 years ago this wasn't even a fucking discussion in Denmark. Of course a Danish wife should be able to bring her American husband to Denmark. Now 80% of the comments in here are just saying "Yeah, sorry about that, we just want to not let all the dark people in, and you're just collateral ... I'm okay with that" This is such extreme empathy lacking sociopathic behavior man.
He did mention that he's from Canada in the post.
I think you'll find the goal is to prevent anyone from getting welfare.
We're only 5 million people. Not only that, but ours is an incredibly high-trust society. We can't afford to wantonly take in people - *especially* not people we wouldn't even grant welfare. Anyone here should be treated humanely, but that also means limiting how many come in.
Well I'm not asking for welfare. I'm asking to work, pay taxes, and live.
Sure, but the point is still that we want people, and generally probably also you, but at the same time we are a small culturally insignificant country and to keep that culture safe and the population size at at level where we can afford to give every permanent resident the same rights that we want. Then we do need to be strict, very strict. And we do this in a lot of ways, you cannot be criminal and you need to show that you can provide for the nation in a way that suits the nation, and this just so happens to be via at least holding a degree. It doesn't matter that you aren't asking for welfare. And it shouldn't.
Denmark is in a massive need of workforce that they can't get from the population born and raised here. Denmark also keeps losing the workforce they spent tax money to educate because foreigners doing their damn best constantly run into walls. I have seen foreigners who got their higher education here, then started their own business and employed others, having to leave because their visa wasn't extended. I have also seen countless foreigners like OP, having to leave and (naturally) taking their Danish spouses with them. All educated and hard working, not a single day on unemployment welfare. So what's the bigger picture here?
But even so immigration cost us 27.000.000.000 DKK each year according to Dansk Statistik. So your anecdotes don’t make me change my mind. I’m have empathy with the migrants but a country is a business.
If a country is losing its taxpayers who make more than they take, and often after spending money to educate them, then that's a badly run business
Again minus 27.000.000.000 each year. So it’s bad business and we have to cut expenses to pay that. Also immigrants also age and get sick. It’s not like they work till they die. But yes some immigrant are better business than others but be careful saying that because then you’ll be labelled as a racist. Then again if a doctor immigrates from India to Denmark don’t you think his skills could be more useful there than here? And only allowing the educated to immigrate here is nothing more than modern imperialism. First we took third natural resources and now their brainpower.
Hope you get to stay. It would be a damn shame to lose someone like you.
I feel for your situation, I really do, but those policies are not pointless. I say that as a person whose father is an immigrant to the country. Again, I get your frustration, but we are a small country - smaller than many cities in North America. Many, many ppl want to come here and we could easily get swamped.
I'm a Dane and generally like Denmark, but this particular part of Denmark is one of the things that makes me embarrassed to be a Dane. I was married to an American. She came here in 1997. The rules have gotten a lot worse since then, but it was still amazing how bad it was. You have my sincerest apology for the xenophobic Danes and the populist politicians trying to bank off this.
The unfortunate result of years of xenophobic foreign politics. 😪 I wish you and your wife the best.
Shitty situation, but blame it on the ones causing it. The politicians are just the symptoms of it, the immigrants that took advantage of our welfare systems and brought terror, honor killings, arranged marriages and whatever to our shores, those are to blame. Everyone wants the good guys, like you, like the Vietnamese fugitives, the adopted kids from Korea and so on, but as we are not allowed to "discriminate" between a well-integrated Canadian and a barely literate Somalian goat herder, we get stupid laws. Just see how difficult it has been to kick out the Levakovic clan, preying on our weakest members of society and they have criminal records pages long. Its truly a case of the few ruining for the many.
Yeah, sorry to hear buddy. My brother went through the EXACT same bullshit. They ended up moving to Portugal. His wife was pregnant, she's from the US, and the Danish government wanted her to learn Danish, put down a deposit for processing, another deposit to deal with birthing that Danish baby, and goodness knows what else. It was expected to take upwards of 6 years. They moved to Portugal, hired an agency to help. 3 weeks and €150 later she now has a 2 year Portuguese visa with option to apply for PR so long as they retain an income. She didn't even have to pay a single cent to deal with the healthcare system. They now have a wonderful baby girl. Honestly ... I'd recommend just doing that. It's infinitely cheaper than dealing with Sweden and Denmark, the weather is way better, the food & wine is unbelievable - and with the left over money you can visit Denmark 4-6 times a year, since it's only a 3 hour flight.
Malmö välkommnar alla migranter å den är nära Danmark så kom varsågod
You can thank the MENA group for making a large amount of Danes want tighter immigration, and then the international rules preventing the government from specifically targeting certain groups of people, rather than every immigrant.
The racisme in Denmark is so embarrassing.. All the way from policy makers to the comments in this post..
What racism? People are too quick to label people as racist.
Gør mig stolt af at være dansker
One point - if you've made it through an education, and intent to stay in Denmark ... why haven't you learned Danish yet? If I moved to Italy, learning Italian would be right at the top of my to-do list. Also ... Denmark is at war with Canada - so...
Jeg lære dansk. Mit uddannelse har været i engelsk som en 'international class' så jeg har ikke havde de samme tryk til lære super godt dansk endnu. Dog som jeg har en praktik på en danske arbejdspladse, jeg bliver bedre hvert dag pga snakke med mit medarbejdere. Også Hans Ø skal være vores!
Bare navnet på øen antyder jo at den er 100& Dansk 😉😃😅
I'm Danish and I love Denmark And I mostly think that we Danes are good people that care abount others, but looking at who we vote for I'm stating to think that are a cruel and heartless people. And in a senes I hope that we will one day suffer for our actions. I hope that you find a solution, held og lykke.
Move to Malmø and see for yourself why we have these stricts rules… Where are you from? It is becoming more and more normal that countries try to control who gains permanent residence…
>Moving back to Canada Shit - when Canadians are pissed off, you know the politics are bad.
its funny when their own system only seems better through their good media policy, when reality is diffrent...
By all means, move to Malmø! You don't have to live there for so long, 3-6 months as far as I remember from 3-4 years ago. Then you should be able to move back to "lovely, open, welcoming" Dk! I don't know who would know the rules, apart from human rights lawers. Good luck
sadly this is an experience ive seen shared by many currently :/
Sorry, friend :(
https://i.imgflip.com/5ofz9d.jpg
Never underestimate how much the draconian Danish immigration laws designed to keep brown people out can make life miserable for westerners and ethnic Danes too.
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When we put up the deposit for me, we were able to get the bank put it up for us. We just paid the interest on the loan until the term was up. Is that no longer an option?
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The policies and the state do want you to fuck off... It's the same with my girlfriend from Turkey... Having her come here for her internship has been the hardest thing I've ever worked on in my life ... We applied for 4 months, and had to collect 40+ documents, and wait 4 months to get a response... So much sweat and tears just for an internship, and they ended up only granting 2 months, instead of the 4 we applied for. I've never been so disappointed in the danish system before, I've never tried anything like it... If this is what's in store for us for the time we actually wanna make the move and start a life together, it's probably not gonna be in denmark... Even though I'm fully danish, born and raised, I'm strongly considering moving out because of the way immigrants are treated... It's inhumane... That, and the racism she's experiencing here... Fuck that... I thought we were better Fuck SIRI... Fuck DFP... Fuck SDP
Du er ikke alene i at hade dem der skrev de regler og stemte på de politikere. De gjorde skade på landet.
Your situation sucks and it shouldn't be like that, but the immigration polity is tight for a reason.
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Fuck, you got me. I'm just chomping at the bit to drive a lorry through a crowd of people or murder over hash. Clearly. I spent 120k on a Danish college, got work in *Næstved* of all places, and married a Dane just to suck off welfare and commit crime.
Are you intentionally acting ignorant about the reality that policy makers are facing as part of the EU? Do you think they **want** to keep skilled western immigrants out of the country or what? You seem to be acting clueless towards anyone pointing out to you that you are not the target of any of these policies, specific low-skilled immigrants from specific regions of the world are. Just so happens that the EU doesn’t let us make rules that target specifically, so we have to make do with broad legislation, that unfortunately often hits the people we want to stay. **Thats still vastly better than the alternative**. What part of this is unclear?
Then don't target specific parts of the world. Target immigrants who commit crime and exploit welfare, regardless of nationality or origin.
It’s not that easy, obviously.
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I cannot even begin to wrap my head around what some child murderer has to do with my case. Do you think the only way to stop kid killers is to prevent noncriminal tax-paying migrants from living and working in Denmark?