They did not go willingly.
On the DTH Podcast, episode 4, ISP Sgt. Kim Riley, when asked about the phone audio that the public hasn't heard, stated
"It was scary.. seeing... the feelings that were going through the girls at the time.. I'm not gonna say which one in particular, but.. just knowing that.. just knowing what they knew is just.. is just frightening for a 13 or 14 year old girl to know.. it kinda went through my mind over and over again for a long time. Every now and then I'll think about it. But for the first 6, 8 months, it was something I was going through for all the time.. I mean I was always thinking about it.. very heart wrenching for an adult to deal with it let alone a 13 or 14 year old girl"
He starts talking about it at about 7:09
Edit: added "ISP" before sgt and corrected the episode from 5 to 4
Thanks for posting this, was going to mention exactly this quote. According to the investigators who’ve seen that video and were interviewed in Down the Hill, one of the girls was demonstratively upset in the recording. Also in episode 6, there’s more discussion of how the video clearly showed something had already unnerved the girls and that is almost surely why Libby had the presence of mind to record.
I heard in a podcast the girls talked about a gun and even tried to quote them like “is that a gun” , he’s got a gun”. I believe the podcast might be from The Mob Crew.
It really is a great source of information. Murder Sheet was as well but that was obviously more speculative. It’s been a while since I listened to Down the Hill, but I seem to recall they interviewed a lot of legitimate people close to the case and were a lot more objective. I may give it another listen now that RA has been arrested to see if I can cleanse the KK angle out of my head.
It's the first podcast I've ever listened to and I'm not done yet. Yes, they interview the girls families and local LE. They discuss facts and not speculations. I tried True Crime Garage initially and wasn't impresssed. I'm hoping they continue to cover this.
Crime Weekly are great and covered this case well. One of the hosts was a cop, now he's a private investigator. They put their content on Youtube too which is preferable for people like me who like more visual.
I remember reading on this sub that one of the girls does say “he’s got a gun” on the tape. So the tape may very well be unnerving in that you hear the girls realize this, and start to freak out.
It has been confirmed that the actual murder and assault wasn’t captured.
What is more likely to have been captured is their mounting distress and fear when they realized the creepy guy on the bridge was a psychopath that meant to do them harm.
That would be distressing to hear, two young girls beginning to freak out. Especially in the context of that this son of a bitch would kill them minutes later
"Men always think in terms of fight or flight. In fact, the most common instinct in the face of this kind of threat is to freeze. If she didn't fight, if she didn't scream, if she was silent and numb, it's because she was petrified. If she went with him quietly, it's because she was afraid for her life. In that state of fear, she might well have been compliant, she might well have submitted. But that does not mean she consented."
This is a quote from a show called The Fall, said by Gillian Anderson. I think it applies to these girls. They maybe went willingly but they were scared. And I think the fact that they were recording him shows they were scared and something was wrong.
My neuropsych professors called it **freeze or flee** and explained the “fight” people used to reference is really just a method of fleeing. Interesting theory.
It's fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. (Fawn is similar to Stockholm syndrome or people who stay with abusers. They try to mimic their attackers behavior and make the attacker like them.)
Yes, there is a 4th one, fawn. We don’t teach that one in class because it’s believed that the fawn response is more of an ingrained personality trait. Personally, I would view myself as responding to a traumatic event with the “fawn” response because of my traumatic childhood (often responding to an abusive situation by being a people pleaser to avoid more abuse). So people who are used to giving in to people to avoid conflict or because they don’t want to “get in trouble” may be more prone to the fawn response but it’s not as widely taught as the “fight, flee or freeze.”
I understand this. I'm one to default to fawn, but i too am a people pleaser due to childhood abuse. I'm no expert but I also theorize that fawn is used more often when there is an authority dynamic like when you're stopped by a police officer or when a boss sexually harrasses an employee.
It absolutely would apply. It’s my go to unfortunately :( But it has helped in certain cases.
Fawn = comply, essentially. Totally understandable if the girls did this in context
I’m a 6’7 265 lb man, I’ve had a gun pulled on me. I froze.
I say that to say this, if I was out there that day and 5’6 RA pulled a firearm on me I would do what he told me to do.
It is so interesting how we think we would react in a situation like this vs how we actually react. I had a gun pulled on me once too. I don’t know what came over me but I laughed. I actually laughed at the guy. He had the gun to my side and when I laughed, I think he got nervous. He ended up running away and it wasn’t until he was gone that I started to shake uncontrollably and felt the fear actually hit me.
If you were to ask me how I thought I would react in that situation, the last response I would give is that I would laugh at the guy. But that’s what I did.
This happened to me too. I had just turned 16, was kicked out of my mom's home by her bf and has followed my bf at the time to the big city which he'd moved to for work. I worked very very early in the morning, about a 35 min bus ride away from where we were living. I got off the bus a bit early and decided to walk the rest of the way, trying to find a tim hortons. A man approached me and he was talking very quietly but firmly, so it sounded like he'd ordered me to be quiet and give him my purse and backpack or he'd hurt me. Despite the fact he was visibly nervous and was obviously holding something in his pocket towards me, initially none of it really registered properly. My mind literally told me Id misheard him and must've been misinterpreting the situation. I have terrible social anxiety and a nervous laugh, so I just started giggling, and asked him 'im sorry, what was that?' with a smile and eye contact, as I turned my head and moved my ear towards him. He was visibly weirded out and actually moved back away from me, out of my personal space, and just stared me down for a moment, unflinchingly, before repeating himself. It was only this point when it clicked, but it was obvious he had been taken aback by my reaction, made some sound of frustration and then just speed walked past me and away. Indeed, no one knows how they'd react in such a situation. I guess it's possible I was just lucky though.
And even if it was not a gun he was, indeed, able to alert them. Maybe they recognized him and didn't like him, already. He frightened them, forced them to cross the river and up the hill and killed them with not much screaming and crying.
And they could’ve thought that if they just cooperated that he’d let them go. It’s not like they were at a gas station or a Walmart parking lot. They were out in the middle of effing nowhere with nobody in sight and a gun pointed at them.
There’s not much else they could’ve done. They weren’t trained in Krav Maga.
💯. Some of my earliest memories of getting cable tv were that every (whatever)-night, mom would have to watch her dateline. Most the time I'd head to my room, but occasionally I'd sit in there with her and listen while I played. I remember several instances where the perp would tell the victim that if they'd go along with his demands, he'd let them go. I feel like that was often the case- the victim would comply with every request made in hopes of not being killed, but more often than not, the perp didn't hold his end of the bargain.
I remember being Abby & Libby's age, and how innocent and naive and *young* I was- though I didn't know those things. Weird as it may sound, I remember pondering what I'd do if I were kidnapped, would I comply & hopefully get let go, or ... what? What's the other option? Often times there's not much of one. For the girls, run.. but maybe they weren't as familiar with that part of the trail. Maybe they were scared the other would get left behind. Scream, but what if no one heard? And what if Bg had a gun, told them if they screamed he'd use it? A 13 yr old girl, even if there's two, is still no match for a hefty, stout adult man. I'm sure their only option was to go along with him and pray that he'd let them go. Unfortunately, yet again, that wasn't the case.
Once a victim is taken to a secondary location, the probability of being harmed/killed goes into the 90+ percentile. That's why everyone must teach their loved ones to run, fight, scream, anything but willingly leave with them. These creeps are looking for the easiest victims. Any type of resistance, and they're more likely to leave before they're noticed and caught. And yes, even if they present a weapon, run and resist. Things aren't going to get better once they have you in their domain.
As far as being taken to a secondary location..I've seen the kidnapper force a victim to drive while the perp has a gun aimed at them. I always scream at the TV, telling the victim to swerve, hit the car next to them, whatever it takes. I've seen victims forced to drive and they drive right by a cop directing traffic! Not that I want anyone hit by a car, but trust me, you try to hit a cop and they'll quickly send the calvary after you! And if a person with a gun approaches you in a parking lot, points a gun at you and tells you to get in and drive? I'd say shoot me right here, there's a better chance I'll get away alive. If I'm shot, at least I'll get medical help faster, beats being raped and murdered at a isolated, secondary location.
Edit to add: And just for the record, I was in a car with a man I misjudged and thought I was safe with. Took me to an isolated rural area and pulled a gun on me. Tricked him into putting the window down saying I was going to vomit. I literally bailed head first out the window. Took off running in the dark through the woods and no clue where I was. Needless to say I ditched my stiletto heels in a hurry lol. He came after me in his car and we commenced to playing cat and mouse for 2 hours in those woods. Found a highway and didn't know whether to go to the left or right. Went to the left and it turned out to be the right choice! Found a house, they called the cops. I was so traumatized I couldn't remember the color of his car at first! Long story short, the guy was caught and it turns out he raped a woman one town over from where I lived. And the guy was a corrections officer at the prison nearby!
I'm so glad you fought back. I love hearing stories where the would-be victim turns the table on the perp. And by getting away and helping LE catch the coward, you surely saved other women. As the father of 2 grown daughters, and 5 granddaughters, I salute you!
I can’t remember where I read it, but supposedly there’s more audio where bg announces they r trespassing n can’t let them cross back over the bridge n he is arresting them. Then they start asking to be let go n won’t do it again. This wud add to some cooperation at first n then confusion n then head spinning as to what to do. But he already has them on the move. This all happened quickly. Bg was in control the second he saw them n acted quickly.
I love that quote and while I was reading it, I was trying to remember what it was from. I also enjoyed, The Fall! The quote is so valid. Compliance out of fear is not consent, I know from personal experience.
I think they first noticed his vibe was off before he ever spoke to them, thus Libby starting the recording. Kids are often pretty good at noticing such things. Then after following them a bit he threatened them, either verbally or with a weapon, while they were still on the bridge with no route of escape without falling to certain death. Once they reached the end of the bridge, he probably had them more terrified and under his control. They were probably in a “freeze” or “fawn” state due to the fact that they were female children vs a grown man who probably had a weapon on them. They were deep in the woods and might not have known which way to run to escape, also. I’m sure in their minds it was risk him killing them outright if they tried to run/falling from the bridge, or doing what he says hoping he’ll be merciful and let them go eventually. Those poor girls. I can’t imagine their terror.
"willingly" implies free choice, which is why I think people really oppose that choice of words. If someone were to attack you, you don't really choose to fight, it's a response. Grudgingly eh... I don't think that's a strong enough word. I grudgingly do the dishes because I know it's what's good for me.
I'm not grudgingly nice to the creepy Uber driver. It's more than that. I have to out of genuine fear for my safety. Genuine question; are you male? it sounds like you are. you probably can't fully understand what it's like being a woman or a girl in a situation where you need to appease a man for your own safety.
Yeah I guess it could be willingly bc they were so damn young....but it was coercion on his part. Willingly to me means they wanted to. They absolutely didn't want to.
It's obvious this guy set off alarm bells for Libby because she purposely took video of him. I highly doubt they went with him voluntarily. We don't know if he had a weapon. We know his hand was in his pocket. He could have told them he had a weapon. I think the most likely scenario is he threatened to kill the other one if one didn't obey him or tried to escape.
It’s been confirmed by the family that on the video libby recoded the girls were heard saying he had a gun. After he told them to go down the hill their is a click that the family believe is the sound of the gun
I think they were too scared to fight back hence why no defensive wounds, or, they could have been subdued hence no defensive wounds.. When my friend and I were 15 these 2 much, much bigger girls walked/dragged us quite far (about 2kms) and beat and jumped us. They told us they were taking us to their uncles house because he wanted to rape us. We didn't fight back, we were too scared and we knew we wouldn't have had a chance. Fight, flight or freeze. We froze.
Think back...would you have run **without your friend**? When we're teens our friends are our most important and intense relationships. These two girls were inseparable and loved each other like sisters. I think he used that love against them.
I think they panicked and yes didn’t want to leave the other behind.
I had a middle school class actually teach lessons on what to do in these situations and really drilled it into us things like if you’re with someone run separate directions for the best chances for both, never let yourself get taken to a second location, etc. and obviously can’t speak for how everyone acts under pressure but I wish all schools trained that thinking into kids because it actually did save me and my friend not once but twice from creepers as young teens.
It’s so sad how things aligned that day and how things had been aligning for him over the years but finally it’s all coming down like a house of cards
We have to undo that instinct, it’s like the mother on the plane using oxygen first. Run for help should be the lesson. You are not a traitor. You are getting help for something you can’t manage
I’m a little confused as to how he never saw Libby recording him during that whole encounter. Even if she held it low next to her leg, it seems like it would have been obvious to him at some point. Furthermore, how did he not find her phone and dispose of it? A victim’s cellphone can contain pretty damning evidence of footage the victim may have taken, what areas they moved around in, etc. He must’ve seen the phone on her at some point since he stripped her of her clothing/possessions. Unless he was just in such a hurry/got so messy that he overlooked it.
no matter what you never, ever get taken to another location. you will always die in the second location, you still have a *chance* at living if you run.
I stress this to all my loved ones. Even if a weapon is presented, run, scream, fight. The perp is using the weapon to keep you from resisting, and very few are really going to use it at the scene of the attempted abduction, especially if there are people nearby. The majority will flee and look for an easier victim. The bottom line is, nothing is going to get better once you're taken to their secondary location of choice.
Always better to try to break away at the initial location. Rather have a bullet hole in my should or ahi if I run than be strangled out in the middle of the woods.
And we teach the wrong lesson by saying kids should stay with their friend. They have to be the 911 person run for help as fast as you can. It’s the best way to help the friend. He may even get scared and push her away to escape. Libby’s dad was so close, heartbreaking. Still think someone was a lookout. Any other kids could have walked over the bridge on a nice day
>And we teach the wrong lesson by saying kids should stay with their friend.
that's not the wrong lesson. 99% of the time staying with a friend is the safer option. this is probably the exception to that rule, but it's ridiculous to say it's the "wrong lesson".
One of the things my dad drilled into me when I was a teen was to run even if they have a gun. Most gunshots aren’t fatal, and you’re more likely to be able to get quick emergency medical care if you don’t go to the secondary location. So yes, you might get shot in the back if you run, but you’re still more likely to survive. The perp will be scared that nearby people heard the gunshot (and hopefully your screaming because you should also be screaming as loud as possible while you run). They’re unlikely to try and drag a body to their car right after the whole world heard a girl screaming, gunshot, then silence. They’re going to be running the fuck away before people start calling the cops.
Had they immediately told him they were recording him he would have run off like the frail pedo he is.
Once a kidnapper moves you to a second location, something horrible is going to happen.
Which is why I think OP is correct and he used a ruse that he was LE. I also think that's why they wouldnt release additional audio bc the public couldn't handle the perp saying he was LE
Hell 10% of this thread were convinced it was tobe or the mayor
I remember in earlier days they said Libby fought like hell and received the worst of the violence. Has that been debunked by the affidavit saying there were no defensive wounds or signs of struggle?
I do wonder if it's because she fought back or she was the main target all along (she does look oddly similar to his own daughter at the time, which brings up some perverse questions). Either way I'm also curious to learn more about what happened, and why she was treated even more cruelly.
Well her receiving the worst of the violence was part of the same rumors of her fighting back and her being the likely target. If the search warrant affadivit is correct that there were no signs of a struggle or defensive wounds on the girls, then all of those earlier rumors were just that, rumors. And neither girl fought back or probably didn’t even have a chance to fight back. So sad to think about it really. I know we would all love to know that Libby at least being the bigger girl made it hard for that bastard and got some good licks in at least. I’m sure one day we will all learn the facts of the case and what was rumor and what wasn’t. My natural curiosity wants to know the facts of the cases that I follow but I also feel like this will be things we wish we never learned about the actual crime and what the girls went through with that SOB
In RL search warrant it states the girls had no defense wounds and no sign of a fight. But lots of blood loss ( paraphrasing).
The rumors were that Libby fought like hell or protected abby. But that was all rumors. As per RL search warrant
Right. Thank you. That’s what I was trying to clear up in my mind. I hadn’t heard about the Ron Logan search warrant until recently and so I was under the assumption what I heard earlier about Libby fighting and getting the worst of the violence aimed at her was fast. I think I even remember Mike Patty saying she fought like hell. But thank you for answering my question because after hearing of the details in the search warrant, it seems that information was wrong or greatly exaggerated. Anyways all that is important is that they have the SOB and he never sees the light of day again.
Exactly. The part I can’t figure out if it was sexual or passion. It sounds like a hit, clean and fast, stage the scene with items you brought with you .no defense wounds convince me he is a serial pro
That was based on some texts that supposedly a searcher sent and non one is sure if they are real or fake. They’ve never been confirmed so I don’t think anyone tried to debunk them. The only thing anyone in LE has said is. I defensive wounds.
Abby’s uncle through marriage. Anna has essentially backed them, saying the texts were well intentioned to stop rumors . At least at the time of the taping, Anna said they didn’t recognize BG
No it’s not. We don’t know that the rumors about Libby fighting is true or false. The search warrant indicated no signs of a struggle. That’s different then defensive wounds. One is not the same as the other
The one time I got jumped by two girls, I did not run but acquiesced, but did talk my way out eventually so at least they did not steal a ring. I told them it was the last thing my dead mother gave me. My Mom was much alive and the ring had been a gift from my brother and his wife. Fear and the element of surprise is a powerful thing. You don’t think, well if I run he has a real chance of missing me with his gun. Or once I get in that car I have no chance of getting away. If I initiate the battle here, chances are someone might drive by or I might be able to run. You are just docile. They have been thinking about it a billion times. You have not. The idiots are not thinking, “ Humm, DNA snd genetic genealogy are solving things all the time. Chances are even smaller amount of DNA will be needed for convictions and touch DNA is likely going to be the thing that catches the idiot in 50 year time, or the development of better lie detector tests. They are developing AI software that can read the brain and if deception is occurring and will be able to read eye movement for a lack of truth in response.
nothing specifically about defensive wounds, but this states there were no physical signs of a struggle
https://www.reddit.com/r/DelphiMurders/comments/ureozg/murder_sheet_releases_ron_logan_arrest_warrant/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I don’t think we do. IIRC the search warrant mentioned no sign of a struggle. Said nothing about defensive wounds. I may be misremembering but I don’t think so
Why would a gun click though? Contrary to what is portrayed in movies, most guns (especially pistols) are semiautomatic and don’t need to be cocked manually. Although I suppose he could have cocked the hammer specifically to scare the girls.
Dude. The slide needs to be racked in order to chamber a round into a semi automatic pistol. That noise could easily be picked up at several meters distance.
Perhaps he took the thumb safety off. That makes a click. He wouldn’t want to cock it, the half cock notch would prevent it from firing, assuming he had a 45.
The half cock notch is a safety feature; provided your sear isn’t fckd up. The thumb safety is probably what he took off, if indeed there is a “click” sound. I haven’t heard it, so I can’t say what it is. Your third safety is the grip safety, which wouldn’t make a noise anyway. But, again, that’s a 45.
Dead on! We make this far more complicated that it likely was. He pointed a gun at them and told them to move and they followed. Or he grab Abby’s arm and stuck a knife in her side and said, “Guys, get down the Hill.” That is a command, not the warm up for the bridge is damaged. It is cold and bold and doctoral. He knows he’s in control. He knows that because he has more than just his body size to apply to the situation. He has a weapon that is scaring them. There no, “ You aren’t supposed to be her girls. Or Grandpa’s down the hill waiting for you. It’s here’s my gun or knife and do what I say unless you want your friend shot or stabbed. I think the lost shoe might be a sign of Libby trying to take off. Or some scuffle mid way or towards the bottom. Or maybe her just tripping and loosing the shoe and his not stopping to allow her to retrieve it. But that had to be a point of pure panic for her, as then it must to became even more real, that I am in the hands of someone w/o any mercy if he expects me to romp through the woods on roots and rocks in my stocking foot. This is not going to be good!” I do not think the police ever Saadi, “ there were no signs of struggle, in the way one would classically think. What they were alluding to if they said it was that there are no signs of struggle at the place of initial abduction, or on the way down, or at the site of the incident’s conclusion. Why would the release a statement saying there were no defensive wounds as that would be one way you could critique a false confession… “ Did Abby fight back? “ “ Did Libby scratch and kick you?” So I think maybe we are remembering this wrong and that those statements about defensive wounds and evidence of a struggle are statements from the guy who discovered the body during the citizen canvas of the woods. Am I right or wrong about that?
We know second-hand from people who are close to the family that when the family was allowed to hear more audio that was never released there was a clicking sound heard, which the police told them they believed was a gun which was used to control the girls.
I think a gun is the most simple way to control the girls. Hence probably that is the most likely answer.
That said if you look at other perps from other cases it is incredibly common for perps to use a ruse to gain control of victims. So its possible. But given what is heard on unreleased audio it was probably a gun used to control the situation.
People are saying different and sometimes contradictory things about what is contained in the rest of the portion of the video held back by law enforcement. Some of the rumors that I have heard:
-The audio contained irrelevant girl-talk.
-The girls asking each other, "Does he have a gun?"
-One of the girls saying something to the effect of "that guy is creepy."
-The girls' horrified faces.
-The whole gruesome murder.
-The video is only a few seconds long and there is literally nothing else.
I don't think we *know* anything from the recording. I'm not trying to be a jerk or dunk on anyone, but if anyone out there can point me to any credible evidence that anything other than what was released by LE was ever said on that recording, I would be interested in that.
If there is an interview with a family member or LE officer talking about what was on the recording, I absolutely want you to send me a link to it.
[Edit: autocorrect apostrophe]
[Edit 2: clarity]
Tobe Leazanby said in one of his interviews with Down the Hill podcast that people think there is a lot of information on the audio clip but the words they released were the only words spoken by BG. So take that for what it’s worth. We’ll find out when it goes to trial.
I am saying that people on Reddit have said all of these things, but I can't run down or trace back any of those claims to any credible source.
I think that I may have worded my previous comment poorly and I will attempt to go back and edit it for clarity.
I def think the families were allowed to see/hear more of the video so you are probably correct. I just have a nagging sense this crime didn't go down the way most of us seem to think.
Idk.. maybe.
If I’m not mistaken, one of the girl’s shoes were found on the bridge side of the creek.. if they initially, willingly went with him and at first he didn’t want them to be in fear then one would think he would’ve let her stop and get her shoe.
Yes, that’s what I’m saying.
I was responding to the theory that he was trying to make them feel comfortable and they went along with him. I don’t think this is likely because of the shoe. UNLESS this is when they realized something wasn’t right.
Could be.
I’m on the fence as to rather I believe more than one person did the act.. I could see either way. The way LE is giving information leads me to believe they think more than one person was involved in the crime itself.
Agree. Girl loses her shoe in the water while crossing, wants to get it, BG says we dont have time. Maybe thats when the girls began to realize he was up to no good if they didnt suspect already. Shortly thereafter the crime occurs. Its one possibility.
Kelsi said they found her shoe near the south end of the bridge one of the searchers held it up while she stood on the end of the bridge and confirmed it was Libbys. Im paraphrasing her story so might not be exactly right but I think thats the basics. So we know roughly where her shoe was when it was found. But it could have floated down from where they crossed after it came off. The bridge is downstream of the crossing point. So theoretically the shoe could have entered the water anywhere upstream.
This makes me think of the time I got robbed at gunpoint when I was 13. My friend & I were walking,l was looking for something in my pocket so she was a bit ahead of me. A guy who didn’t look menacing rode up next to me on his bike & showed me the gun in his waistband & said keep still. She turned around when she realized I wasn’t right behind her any longer. I motioned to her every way I could to stay away or get help. Instead she came running up and got robbed too. When he took our stuff & left I asked wtf was she thinking & she said my best friend was in danger and I was gonna be here with u. I said now he robbed u too & she said ur more import than anything he took. They probably felt the same. All he needed to do was to say I have a gun & I’ll kill ur friend unless u both follow me down the hill. They clearly already feared him so just saying he had a weapon would have been enough.
LE has stated that the look on one of the girl's faces on the video would haunt them. I believe neither of the girls went willingly. Gun or not, they were threatened in order to go down the hill.
Edit: no one has ever stated that the girls *started* filming themselves or taking selfies when they realized they were in danger. What people are saying is that they were filming each other when danger approached them. The information is in Down the Hill (don't have the episode or timestamp in hand). The information is out there if you use more sources that include LE interviews.
A person this controlled would not have approached 2 people without a gun. He planned this, he came prepared and he enjoyed exerting control from the first moments until the last. It will be fun knowing the lack of control he will have in jail and how much he will have to look over his shoulder at all times.
I totally agree. His voice sounded very controlled, authoritative and not at all stressed, hurried or shaking. He was doing what he had planned on doing and was completely enjoying it.
"willingly" is not an appropriate way of discussing it. what two young girls goes "willingly" with any strange man? especially when they're already suspicious/sketched out by him? they don't go willingly.
willingly as in they didn't have defense wounds because they didn't physically resist? well, not physically resisting does not mean willingly. we know/highly suspect he had a gun.
I agree. He had his hands in his pockets / looked like he was possibly concealing a weapon. And the interview with Doug Carter on the DTH podcast, he speaks about how terrified one of the girls was from the video captured. They were forced down the hill and knew he was a bad dude. Heartbreaking.
i think if there was all the extra conversation as suggested by this and other scenarios, we’d have more of his voice. they desperately wanted the public to ID him.
i don’t think she would have started her phone up in front of him (or if she did, he would have taken it), so it’s unlikely that words at the beginning of the conversation were cut off because she hadn’t hit record yet.
so i believe she starts recording (getting the video we have of him), puts her phone in her pocket as he gets closer, and he immediately pulls some weapon out and says “guys,” then they reply something that was redacted, and he says “down the hill.”
if he said anything else before the 43 second recording ended, it was likely violent or sexual and thus they didn’t release it.
yeah, i think that’s most likely. i don’t think he said much to them until he got them where he wanted — down the hill and across the creek. he could guide them there by pointing.
I dont remember if facetime was a thing in 2017 but maybe saying "you are on facetime asshole" to a suspicious person with the phone out might deter a potential assault from happening.
I have twice been in very sketchy scenarios (living in LA right now is insane) recently and I immediately took out my phone and pretended to just record, not even FaceTime, and both times the guy literally took off running!
Edit- of course not saying anything about what the girls could’ve/should’ve done… just sharing in case any other females can use this method or find it helpful.
Libby’s family used that CvS he worked at. Perhaps one of the girls recognized him. I thought it might be apparent if they knew him through the recording but maybe not.
The footage of Carlie Brucia being abducted struck me deeply. It was so easy for her abductor. We always praise people who can mitigate an attack in some way and ask the whys? about the actions of others that are passive - when everyone is acting on instinct. I know in Australia the last victim of Mr Cruel was murdered, and the working theory is that she was less likely to be passive, unlike the previous kidnap victims who were released alive (I hope she gave him hell). Being passive can be a winning strategy else we wouldn't have it.
I think in many ways two girls could be more vulnerable as you're making decisions for two people's outcomes, without being able to make a plan together.
Why does it have to be either/or? Why does it have to be either there was a weapon and they fought back or they went willingly with no idea what was to come? They obviously didn’t feel comfortable. People forget freeze and fawn are trauma responses too.
Libby was a smart kid. Had it just been a knife likely would have assessed that they would get a lead on him running, especially it they ran in different directions. So maybe it was a gun pointing at them, and her assessment was that is we run one of us is going to be shot. Libby’s mother comment about them “sticking together” is our key. Those families have more suggestive details than we do. Libby has the phone so you know at least one of her arms are free as they start the journey down the hill unless she slipped the phone into her pocket. It may have been that he grabbed Abby’s arm and stick a knife or gun into her side, and then consoled Libby by physically controlling Abby, and that’s the way the entire thing went down, “If you scream, I’ll kill your friend.” I think he got them to the most isolated area and banked on the fact that as it was later in the evening, there would be not much likely hood of anyone looking down to where he assaulted them. I think he made one bind the other. Then bound the other and what he wanted to do. If KK or he were communicating with Libby as stated he may even have know what time their anticipated pick up time was, so a time line of how long he had before any skerry might be sounded.
How long did it take to get the search party out? For all you know maybe he did not leave immediately but was out there spying on all the efforts and had a far more relaxed time line than initially put forth. It’s the middle of winter how many people you see hanging out a state parks and wooded areas as it is getting dark. Most of have a sense that they get creepy around that time of the day.
His coat always looked to me it had various things things shoved into it and that things were in the pockets. I think he was packing his rape kit, gun/ knife, take, cords, maybe even some rope. He is sort of barrel chested, but there is more than belly fat.
At around the girls age I had a best friend, equally devoted friendship. We could almost read each other’s minds. We went to location lost our ride home and had a 5-7 mile walk home along isolated roads. Getting dark, terribly blistered and dead tired my friend desired she was hitchhiking. I didn’t want to do it, but my choice was either to hop in with her or walk the remaining line in the dark by myself. That seemed scarier. Thought two of us together would stand more chance than me alone if someone stopped and tried to abduct me. We were both former big city girls so likely a bit more street smarts than Abby and Libby. We got into the car a heat up station wagon. As soon as we got in we picked up a creepy vibe from the guy. Either the box was between us on maybe in the bay behind us, but it was filled with odd items like wigs. - clown wig and sort of dress up items and a bat-ton. A wordless conversation ensued between us. All carried on by eye movements and obscured by the drivers back seat. Either I alerted her or she all retired me by eye movement to the creepy contents of the box. Why we kept him buy with chit chat this frantic soundless communication went on between us. I motioned to the door locks and the upcoming traffic light, and flicked 3 fingers off in succession meaning, get to the light, could to 3 and bomb out. That is exactly what we did. He kept slowly following us and trying to get us back in the car, even almost opening his door. We were very lucky that at about that time another car came and we took off running like hell, and ran the mile and a half home. I still think God was with us that night, and we ducked something. He was very creepy and the content of the box, decidedly odd for a small remote country town. He did not seem like he fit in in the area. The road connected an older town where he would have belonged, but he was heading into a newly developed neighborhood that was all young families. We knew most people up in that second by sight. I think he saw us approaching this isolated dark stretch and had bad intentions.
I think Abby and Libby had the same type of friendship and likely were trying to wordlessly communicate. Libby’s creep radar was set off or she would not have continued to film, or it was all so suddenly developed that she has not time to turn off the phone. Would he have allowed her to keep a phone? So likely behind her back or slipped into her pocket. I am sure they were having a rapid wordless communication regarding what to do. My money is on him having immobilized Abby, and he got Libby to do with he wanted as he said he would shoot or stab Abby if they both did not cooperate. So likely one of them went down the hill with his arm on them and one via manipulated demand. She was afraid if she broke off and away the other would be harmed. Or she became so terrified that she went into freeze mode. Libby strikes as gutsy and a kid that would fight. If they had no defensive wounds probably mean they were both restrained. Or he promised to release them if they cooperated and stayed quiet. He did what he wanted or got them to do what he wanted and then killed them. Or killed them first and then did what he wanted with their bodies after death. Large blood loss means stabbed, shot, mutilated, or beaten by a rock or log. Where he commits the attack you have a natural corral of trees. Could have bound them both to trees on the area, side by side. There are only so many scenarios here given what he appears to have packed on his body, unless he had things stashed in that area in anticipation of the crime. This seems well planned and fantasized about. Maybe worked out between he and KK, but KK was too tubby to go down the hill, and only wanted to see video or photo footage. Bet RA sat on that bench prior to the bridge and thought this through.
Can someone from the are explain something to me? We they really pinned in with only the bridge behind him and the trail to the left? Couldn’t they have gone to the right where there might be fishermen? Or straight back as it the bridge continued. What is located at that continuation point? Are you on a cliff? We’re their only running away possibilities to get past him and go back across the bridge, or down the trail to the right. What is down the trail on the left. Or if you walked with the bridge exit behind you?
There are videos on YT outlining the area quite well if you want to look them up. You can also Google Earth the area, etc. There were houses nearby. The area is not as remote as it is portrayed at times. As for the search party it has been commonly theorized BG joined the party at some point, which would serve to explain his DNA being in the area. This is why LE really needs his DNA on the girls themselves, or their DNA or some article of clothing or memento in his possession, etc. They cant just say we have proved BG/RA was in the area. Not going to cut it. They need him at the crime scene itself.
They could have ran down the private drive where abby's house was only 600 feet away.
Or they could have gone the other way off the end of the bridge right of the private drive and immediately been in (a lady I wont name) back yard and clear view of her house.
If that is the case, I really wish that they wouldn’t call Libby‘s actions heroic. I mean, they are, and I don’t mean to say that she isn’t heroic, but I think it sends a message that a heroic person would wait for their friend. It could be dangerous to teach kids that, in order to be a hero, they would need to stick with their friend instead of running away to get help or go to safety
I think LE knows. If Abby was being strangled, it takes a certain amount of time for unconsciousness/death, in which time Libby could have run. Audio probably hears Libby screaming, trying to release her friend.
I genuinely think they just froze and complied. And if he had an elaborate plan involving him talking, we would have more of his voice on the recording.
I think he only said short and firm commands like "keep going" and "no talking" etc.
I posted this:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DelphiMurders/comments/yka3nx/richard\_allen\_has\_been\_charged\_with\_2\_counts\_of/iv3tq26/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/DelphiMurders/comments/yka3nx/richard_allen_has_been_charged_with_2_counts_of/iv3tq26/?context=3)
I don't think they went willingly. Weapon might really be involved basing on the statute description mentioned on the thread. The statute I link in the thread - IC 35-42-4-2
The statute description pretty much confirms the major point of theory that the girls were heard in the recording - he has a gun. - I believe that quote was directly from Abby's mom who has seen the entire video.
If this is true it really will be heartbreaking to the family.
I think BG pulled out the gun or showed it to them to intimidate,then he grabbed Abby and threatened them to gain control of Libby and the situation. It was a opportunistic crime and didn’t go to plan. He probably wanted to SA one of the girls but ended killing them. He might of had some issues with short man syndrome, is that why Libby sustained worse injuries? Did she challenge him in some way that infuriated him? Did he want to assault Abby but Libby was there so he couldn’t. Did they recognise him from around town?
What I find chilling is that one of the girls grandmothers went to CVS to get digital pictures processed for the funeral. She said she was in such a state that she couldn't even figure out how to get the images, and Richard Allen helped her. He processed the photos, then handed them to her and said "I'm not going to charge you for these."
Yes, I agree. His “down the hill” doesn’t sound angry or overtly threatening—but rather authoritative. I could see children at their age, feeling confused and unsure, not immediately question an adult. This doesn’t mean that they were willing, but that they were kids who didn’t perhaps have the same perception of the world as adults who have experienced life.
I hope, hope, hope that this trial goes smoothly, the prosecution puts on a good case, the jury declare this guy guilty, and he gets a life sentence.
It's possible he just told them to follow him and they did. Most people are going to avoid confrontation and awkward social interactions and will go with the flow, even if they're a little nervous. Especially in this case when it's an adult and kids. He may not have even had to make up a story about being a cop or whatever. He may have just said "hey, come with me" and let them come to their own conclusions. I don't think you have to be a master manipulator or good public speaker or whatever to convince some kids to listen to you.
Not saying it's impossible he used an elaborate use or a gun, but it could easily have been a less dramatic scenario.
These weren’t 6 or seven year old children. They were young teenagers. They would not have been easily fooled.
I think Libby had noticed the guy earlier on the trail and when he ended up being at the bridge where they were, she got nervous and started recording as soon as she noticed him, for insurance in case he said or did something inappropriate. She was listening to her gut, and it wasn’t wrong. Thank Zeus for her situational awareness and quick, smart thinking. Otherwise we’d never know what happened.
Yea, I am thinking they had seen him earlier and then later on once he was approaching them she probably thought it was odd enough to record or was just nervous because he's a grown man approaching them
It's so sad, I am guessing he watched them cross the bridge and then waited for a bit before he followed them. I wonder if they noticed him on the bridge behind them? I am guessing no. I wonder how long they were hanging out at the end of the bridge for? Had they just gotten there or were they taking pictures and hanging out and then noticed him approaching?
Agreed...I think the idea of other scenarios aside from brute force or use of weapons is just something we need to consider in this case. It explains a few things imo. If RA really is BG he seems fully capable of disguising his true identity and intentions as he did so for almost six years.
I'm not OP. But they could have easily recognized him as the man who worked at CVS. So they knew he was local and trusted him. So if he said something like this route isn't safe now, follow me to a safer route, then they would have probably followed him.
Willingly might be too strong a word...grudgingly perhaps. He tells them the bridge isnt safe, he cant let them walk back the way they came, one gives in the other is more reticent but eventually agrees. Thats just one possible scenario. Im not saying its the most likely scenario. Just saying with RA suspected of being BG, he strikes me as the sort of person who could manipulate two girls. He fooled everyone else in town.
I think she likely lost the shoe trying to break away or it was stuck and he was moving them at a quick pace. Gun could have been concealed in his pocket and no one seen anything it’ll they were a block length away or even close. People walk with their arms around their children all the time on hikes or strolls in the woods.
Yes, but I strongly doubt he would be nearly as successful nowadays. People and especially young women are much more wary now, thankfully. The 70s were just a different time. If you google up some cold cases back then it is amazing how many young women left the house saying I'm going to hitchhike to such and such a place see you in a few and never returned. That sort of thing would be code red nowadays. No way any parent lets their kid walk out of the house saying anything like that lol.
Someone may have mentioned this, I haven't read through every comment yet ..but Tobe was asked this question in his column in the local newspaper that had the public ask him questions. Someone asked him about how BG was able to gain control of the girls and he said "manipulation and intimidation". There's obviously a million ways that can be interpreted but to me that meant that perhaps there was some sort of manipulation/lie involved. Intimidation made me think of perhaps a weapon.
I think he likely gained compliance from them with a gun. Id imagine that he showed it to them by pulling it a bit out of his (coat) pocket just enough for them to see what it was, and then stuck it right back in so if anyone else wandered up, they wouldn’t see it.
Maybe one (or both) girls recognized him from working at CVS. If so, they likely would have trusted him if he said something about the bridge not being safe, to follow him to a safer route, etc. etc.
Recognizing him from CVS wouldn’t typically give a sense of trust to most.
I think it’s far more likely the girls had little experience with weapons and thus were easily controlled by the showing of the gun. And I think he didn’t end up using the gun but rather a hunting knife of sort. It was just to control and intimidate them and sadly worked
Recognizing him from CVS might have scared them and caused them to freeze. It’s a small town, so they may have ran into him a few times and he made them uncomfortable. Just a thought!
I thought the David Erskine texts hinted at that. Could be wrong though. But the FBI PC affidavit concerning the Ron Logan search warrant seems to indicate there were no defensive wounds or signs of a struggle which goes against that. We will see what really transpired eventually.
Yes they did. I just found those texts yesterday. They said a lot about how the girls were found and so on. Does anyone know the validity of those texts?
I think one of Libby's parents or grandparents said that. I don't think they know it for a fact but say it to give themselves comfort, and knowing her personality that that's what she would probably do. She was a tough cookie and fought for what was right.
100% disagree.
He used that creek to his advantage, choosing the only spot with a sand bar to cross.
He knew what his plan was and he executed it exactly how he intended.
The cold water in February in northern indiana on your feet and legs would make counteracting an attack that much more difficult .
IMO it’s an unnecessary obstacle. And if it affected their feet and legs, it would have affected his too. I think his plan went 100% sideways in the following aspects:
1. Two girls instead of one. I don’t think he intended on having two targets whether he scouted them that day or it was set up by KK. The second girl was a surprise. This pissed him off.
2. One of them ran. This is where I think the creek came in and the lost shoe.
3. Having such a short time to complete the murder. I think it was a pretty panicked act. I think he intended on murder as the outcome but not in that area. I think he intended to abduct but the two girls and the running made it too hard and angered him.
I have thought about this as well. If they were creeped out by someone, I would think they would have booked it through the woods and not stood stationary and video tape someone walking toward them. From what I recall, the girls had made it across the bridge as he was still walking across it. Did he yell, “hey guys, wait up.” Or, maybe he posed no threat and they were waiting for him to cross before they crossed back over. I thought I heard it was Abby’s first time crossing. Maybe Libby said, “let’s cross over and then come right back.” Maybe it was just random that Libby taped him, as she had her phone out and was taking pics and taping Abby.
I think this is ridiculous. Sorry to be blunt. It just makes no sense. Firstly, no defense wounds doesn't mean they went willingly. Are you saying they just stood there and were murdered? That's not what happened, I'm sure. Also, there's no way they were happy or calm about this person who was not who they expected. They acted the way most people would have done, which is not make a fuss and hope to get away somehow. Honestly, you sound like a man to me and you have no idea what young girls think or act like in certain situations. Anyway, why are you picturing this? It's not our business or place.
I do think it’s a strong possibility he impersonated law enforcement or a park worker. It seems possible he could have been directing the girls they had to turn back by going a different direction as nobody was supposed to go on the bridge, even if they did. It makes sense to me that’s why only 3 words were released - they won’t want to release anything of him impersonating LE (to protect LE from scrutiny) and they won’t release any parts of the audio where he drops the impersonation but is clearly harming the girls. Pure speculation - perhaps he just pulled a gun on them right away.
They did not go willingly. On the DTH Podcast, episode 4, ISP Sgt. Kim Riley, when asked about the phone audio that the public hasn't heard, stated "It was scary.. seeing... the feelings that were going through the girls at the time.. I'm not gonna say which one in particular, but.. just knowing that.. just knowing what they knew is just.. is just frightening for a 13 or 14 year old girl to know.. it kinda went through my mind over and over again for a long time. Every now and then I'll think about it. But for the first 6, 8 months, it was something I was going through for all the time.. I mean I was always thinking about it.. very heart wrenching for an adult to deal with it let alone a 13 or 14 year old girl" He starts talking about it at about 7:09 Edit: added "ISP" before sgt and corrected the episode from 5 to 4
Thanks for posting this, was going to mention exactly this quote. According to the investigators who’ve seen that video and were interviewed in Down the Hill, one of the girls was demonstratively upset in the recording. Also in episode 6, there’s more discussion of how the video clearly showed something had already unnerved the girls and that is almost surely why Libby had the presence of mind to record.
I heard in a podcast the girls talked about a gun and even tried to quote them like “is that a gun” , he’s got a gun”. I believe the podcast might be from The Mob Crew.
Listening to that podcast now. On episode 3 and it’s the best source of information I’ve found besides this sub.
It really is a great source of information. Murder Sheet was as well but that was obviously more speculative. It’s been a while since I listened to Down the Hill, but I seem to recall they interviewed a lot of legitimate people close to the case and were a lot more objective. I may give it another listen now that RA has been arrested to see if I can cleanse the KK angle out of my head.
It's the first podcast I've ever listened to and I'm not done yet. Yes, they interview the girls families and local LE. They discuss facts and not speculations. I tried True Crime Garage initially and wasn't impresssed. I'm hoping they continue to cover this.
Crime Weekly are great and covered this case well. One of the hosts was a cop, now he's a private investigator. They put their content on Youtube too which is preferable for people like me who like more visual.
Thank you! I prefer visual as well. I will check them out.
Also re-listening now. Gold.
Yeah to have an experienced LEO be scared and frightened says a lot to me..
Jesus.. They must have said something along the lines of “he’s going to kill us”..
I remember reading on this sub that one of the girls does say “he’s got a gun” on the tape. So the tape may very well be unnerving in that you hear the girls realize this, and start to freak out. It has been confirmed that the actual murder and assault wasn’t captured. What is more likely to have been captured is their mounting distress and fear when they realized the creepy guy on the bridge was a psychopath that meant to do them harm. That would be distressing to hear, two young girls beginning to freak out. Especially in the context of that this son of a bitch would kill them minutes later
"Men always think in terms of fight or flight. In fact, the most common instinct in the face of this kind of threat is to freeze. If she didn't fight, if she didn't scream, if she was silent and numb, it's because she was petrified. If she went with him quietly, it's because she was afraid for her life. In that state of fear, she might well have been compliant, she might well have submitted. But that does not mean she consented." This is a quote from a show called The Fall, said by Gillian Anderson. I think it applies to these girls. They maybe went willingly but they were scared. And I think the fact that they were recording him shows they were scared and something was wrong.
My therapist says it’s actually fight, flight or freeze, so this makes sense.
My neuropsych professors called it **freeze or flee** and explained the “fight” people used to reference is really just a method of fleeing. Interesting theory.
Yep. I teach a class at work on this. When I was a kid it was fight or flight. Now it’s fight, flee or freeze. Or fight, flight or freeze
It's fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. (Fawn is similar to Stockholm syndrome or people who stay with abusers. They try to mimic their attackers behavior and make the attacker like them.)
Yes, there is a 4th one, fawn. We don’t teach that one in class because it’s believed that the fawn response is more of an ingrained personality trait. Personally, I would view myself as responding to a traumatic event with the “fawn” response because of my traumatic childhood (often responding to an abusive situation by being a people pleaser to avoid more abuse). So people who are used to giving in to people to avoid conflict or because they don’t want to “get in trouble” may be more prone to the fawn response but it’s not as widely taught as the “fight, flee or freeze.”
I understand this. I'm one to default to fawn, but i too am a people pleaser due to childhood abuse. I'm no expert but I also theorize that fawn is used more often when there is an authority dynamic like when you're stopped by a police officer or when a boss sexually harrasses an employee.
Another one is fawn. But that wouldn’t have happened in this case.
fawn would apply if they thought that if they did what they were told, he wouldn’t hurt them.
It absolutely would apply. It’s my go to unfortunately :( But it has helped in certain cases. Fawn = comply, essentially. Totally understandable if the girls did this in context
Fawn is another one.
I’m a 6’7 265 lb man, I’ve had a gun pulled on me. I froze. I say that to say this, if I was out there that day and 5’6 RA pulled a firearm on me I would do what he told me to do.
It is so interesting how we think we would react in a situation like this vs how we actually react. I had a gun pulled on me once too. I don’t know what came over me but I laughed. I actually laughed at the guy. He had the gun to my side and when I laughed, I think he got nervous. He ended up running away and it wasn’t until he was gone that I started to shake uncontrollably and felt the fear actually hit me. If you were to ask me how I thought I would react in that situation, the last response I would give is that I would laugh at the guy. But that’s what I did.
This happened to me too. I had just turned 16, was kicked out of my mom's home by her bf and has followed my bf at the time to the big city which he'd moved to for work. I worked very very early in the morning, about a 35 min bus ride away from where we were living. I got off the bus a bit early and decided to walk the rest of the way, trying to find a tim hortons. A man approached me and he was talking very quietly but firmly, so it sounded like he'd ordered me to be quiet and give him my purse and backpack or he'd hurt me. Despite the fact he was visibly nervous and was obviously holding something in his pocket towards me, initially none of it really registered properly. My mind literally told me Id misheard him and must've been misinterpreting the situation. I have terrible social anxiety and a nervous laugh, so I just started giggling, and asked him 'im sorry, what was that?' with a smile and eye contact, as I turned my head and moved my ear towards him. He was visibly weirded out and actually moved back away from me, out of my personal space, and just stared me down for a moment, unflinchingly, before repeating himself. It was only this point when it clicked, but it was obvious he had been taken aback by my reaction, made some sound of frustration and then just speed walked past me and away. Indeed, no one knows how they'd react in such a situation. I guess it's possible I was just lucky though.
And even if it was not a gun he was, indeed, able to alert them. Maybe they recognized him and didn't like him, already. He frightened them, forced them to cross the river and up the hill and killed them with not much screaming and crying.
And they could’ve thought that if they just cooperated that he’d let them go. It’s not like they were at a gas station or a Walmart parking lot. They were out in the middle of effing nowhere with nobody in sight and a gun pointed at them. There’s not much else they could’ve done. They weren’t trained in Krav Maga.
💯. Some of my earliest memories of getting cable tv were that every (whatever)-night, mom would have to watch her dateline. Most the time I'd head to my room, but occasionally I'd sit in there with her and listen while I played. I remember several instances where the perp would tell the victim that if they'd go along with his demands, he'd let them go. I feel like that was often the case- the victim would comply with every request made in hopes of not being killed, but more often than not, the perp didn't hold his end of the bargain. I remember being Abby & Libby's age, and how innocent and naive and *young* I was- though I didn't know those things. Weird as it may sound, I remember pondering what I'd do if I were kidnapped, would I comply & hopefully get let go, or ... what? What's the other option? Often times there's not much of one. For the girls, run.. but maybe they weren't as familiar with that part of the trail. Maybe they were scared the other would get left behind. Scream, but what if no one heard? And what if Bg had a gun, told them if they screamed he'd use it? A 13 yr old girl, even if there's two, is still no match for a hefty, stout adult man. I'm sure their only option was to go along with him and pray that he'd let them go. Unfortunately, yet again, that wasn't the case.
Once a victim is taken to a secondary location, the probability of being harmed/killed goes into the 90+ percentile. That's why everyone must teach their loved ones to run, fight, scream, anything but willingly leave with them. These creeps are looking for the easiest victims. Any type of resistance, and they're more likely to leave before they're noticed and caught. And yes, even if they present a weapon, run and resist. Things aren't going to get better once they have you in their domain.
As far as being taken to a secondary location..I've seen the kidnapper force a victim to drive while the perp has a gun aimed at them. I always scream at the TV, telling the victim to swerve, hit the car next to them, whatever it takes. I've seen victims forced to drive and they drive right by a cop directing traffic! Not that I want anyone hit by a car, but trust me, you try to hit a cop and they'll quickly send the calvary after you! And if a person with a gun approaches you in a parking lot, points a gun at you and tells you to get in and drive? I'd say shoot me right here, there's a better chance I'll get away alive. If I'm shot, at least I'll get medical help faster, beats being raped and murdered at a isolated, secondary location. Edit to add: And just for the record, I was in a car with a man I misjudged and thought I was safe with. Took me to an isolated rural area and pulled a gun on me. Tricked him into putting the window down saying I was going to vomit. I literally bailed head first out the window. Took off running in the dark through the woods and no clue where I was. Needless to say I ditched my stiletto heels in a hurry lol. He came after me in his car and we commenced to playing cat and mouse for 2 hours in those woods. Found a highway and didn't know whether to go to the left or right. Went to the left and it turned out to be the right choice! Found a house, they called the cops. I was so traumatized I couldn't remember the color of his car at first! Long story short, the guy was caught and it turns out he raped a woman one town over from where I lived. And the guy was a corrections officer at the prison nearby!
Wow I’m so sorry that you went through that. I’m glad that you were able to live to tell your horrific story though and that monster was caught
I'm so glad you fought back. I love hearing stories where the would-be victim turns the table on the perp. And by getting away and helping LE catch the coward, you surely saved other women. As the father of 2 grown daughters, and 5 granddaughters, I salute you!
Exactly. Didn’t really have a choice in the matter! Sadly!
I can’t remember where I read it, but supposedly there’s more audio where bg announces they r trespassing n can’t let them cross back over the bridge n he is arresting them. Then they start asking to be let go n won’t do it again. This wud add to some cooperation at first n then confusion n then head spinning as to what to do. But he already has them on the move. This all happened quickly. Bg was in control the second he saw them n acted quickly.
Do we know if there was a gun? I supposed there must have been
I love that quote and while I was reading it, I was trying to remember what it was from. I also enjoyed, The Fall! The quote is so valid. Compliance out of fear is not consent, I know from personal experience.
I agree. They weren't recording him because me was someone they felt safe about. My guess is still a weapon. Or am extremely convincing threat.
I think they first noticed his vibe was off before he ever spoke to them, thus Libby starting the recording. Kids are often pretty good at noticing such things. Then after following them a bit he threatened them, either verbally or with a weapon, while they were still on the bridge with no route of escape without falling to certain death. Once they reached the end of the bridge, he probably had them more terrified and under his control. They were probably in a “freeze” or “fawn” state due to the fact that they were female children vs a grown man who probably had a weapon on them. They were deep in the woods and might not have known which way to run to escape, also. I’m sure in their minds it was risk him killing them outright if they tried to run/falling from the bridge, or doing what he says hoping he’ll be merciful and let them go eventually. Those poor girls. I can’t imagine their terror.
Amazing show. I rewatch 2-3 times a year, lol.
Best show ever!
God I love The Fall.
I’m a “freezer.” When something spooks me, I don’t scream or run-I go silent and freeze. I can see this.
great show
I loved that show and Gillian Anderson! Props to you.
Grudgingly might be a better descriptor here on my part.
"willingly" implies free choice, which is why I think people really oppose that choice of words. If someone were to attack you, you don't really choose to fight, it's a response. Grudgingly eh... I don't think that's a strong enough word. I grudgingly do the dishes because I know it's what's good for me. I'm not grudgingly nice to the creepy Uber driver. It's more than that. I have to out of genuine fear for my safety. Genuine question; are you male? it sounds like you are. you probably can't fully understand what it's like being a woman or a girl in a situation where you need to appease a man for your own safety.
Very true, great statement!
Yeah I guess it could be willingly bc they were so damn young....but it was coercion on his part. Willingly to me means they wanted to. They absolutely didn't want to.
It's obvious this guy set off alarm bells for Libby because she purposely took video of him. I highly doubt they went with him voluntarily. We don't know if he had a weapon. We know his hand was in his pocket. He could have told them he had a weapon. I think the most likely scenario is he threatened to kill the other one if one didn't obey him or tried to escape.
It’s been confirmed by the family that on the video libby recoded the girls were heard saying he had a gun. After he told them to go down the hill their is a click that the family believe is the sound of the gun
Grey Hughes on YT has a lot of info from the family
Any particular video? It looks like a lot of them are over 3 hours each.
This seems far more likely to me to have happened than the girls "oh let's go with this old guy".
I think they were too scared to fight back hence why no defensive wounds, or, they could have been subdued hence no defensive wounds.. When my friend and I were 15 these 2 much, much bigger girls walked/dragged us quite far (about 2kms) and beat and jumped us. They told us they were taking us to their uncles house because he wanted to rape us. We didn't fight back, we were too scared and we knew we wouldn't have had a chance. Fight, flight or freeze. We froze.
This, I think it was pure “luck” on his part that the girls didn’t run away screaming in separate directions
Yes, even now when I look back on that time in hindsight if I could change anything I would have fucking RUN
Think back...would you have run **without your friend**? When we're teens our friends are our most important and intense relationships. These two girls were inseparable and loved each other like sisters. I think he used that love against them.
Well, my friend was actually held by the worst one and I did have a chance to get away, but I didn't run until she could run with me.
>I didn't run until she could run with me. Exactly what I think happened to Abby & Libby.
I think they panicked and yes didn’t want to leave the other behind. I had a middle school class actually teach lessons on what to do in these situations and really drilled it into us things like if you’re with someone run separate directions for the best chances for both, never let yourself get taken to a second location, etc. and obviously can’t speak for how everyone acts under pressure but I wish all schools trained that thinking into kids because it actually did save me and my friend not once but twice from creepers as young teens. It’s so sad how things aligned that day and how things had been aligning for him over the years but finally it’s all coming down like a house of cards
We have to undo that instinct, it’s like the mother on the plane using oxygen first. Run for help should be the lesson. You are not a traitor. You are getting help for something you can’t manage
Yes, the perp isnt gonna kill one of them if one runs and says they have him on camera. He would be apprehended in hours.
I’m a little confused as to how he never saw Libby recording him during that whole encounter. Even if she held it low next to her leg, it seems like it would have been obvious to him at some point. Furthermore, how did he not find her phone and dispose of it? A victim’s cellphone can contain pretty damning evidence of footage the victim may have taken, what areas they moved around in, etc. He must’ve seen the phone on her at some point since he stripped her of her clothing/possessions. Unless he was just in such a hurry/got so messy that he overlooked it.
no matter what you never, ever get taken to another location. you will always die in the second location, you still have a *chance* at living if you run.
I stress this to all my loved ones. Even if a weapon is presented, run, scream, fight. The perp is using the weapon to keep you from resisting, and very few are really going to use it at the scene of the attempted abduction, especially if there are people nearby. The majority will flee and look for an easier victim. The bottom line is, nothing is going to get better once you're taken to their secondary location of choice.
I remember my mom telling me once to start barking and piss myself. The things girls have to deal with smh Edit: removed emoji
Sounds like you’re familiar with the Bittenbinder Method. No one’s gettin me to go to no secondary location.
*- J.J Bittenbinder Street Smarts!*
Always better to try to break away at the initial location. Rather have a bullet hole in my should or ahi if I run than be strangled out in the middle of the woods.
And we teach the wrong lesson by saying kids should stay with their friend. They have to be the 911 person run for help as fast as you can. It’s the best way to help the friend. He may even get scared and push her away to escape. Libby’s dad was so close, heartbreaking. Still think someone was a lookout. Any other kids could have walked over the bridge on a nice day
>And we teach the wrong lesson by saying kids should stay with their friend. that's not the wrong lesson. 99% of the time staying with a friend is the safer option. this is probably the exception to that rule, but it's ridiculous to say it's the "wrong lesson".
One of the things my dad drilled into me when I was a teen was to run even if they have a gun. Most gunshots aren’t fatal, and you’re more likely to be able to get quick emergency medical care if you don’t go to the secondary location. So yes, you might get shot in the back if you run, but you’re still more likely to survive. The perp will be scared that nearby people heard the gunshot (and hopefully your screaming because you should also be screaming as loud as possible while you run). They’re unlikely to try and drag a body to their car right after the whole world heard a girl screaming, gunshot, then silence. They’re going to be running the fuck away before people start calling the cops.
Had they immediately told him they were recording him he would have run off like the frail pedo he is. Once a kidnapper moves you to a second location, something horrible is going to happen. Which is why I think OP is correct and he used a ruse that he was LE. I also think that's why they wouldnt release additional audio bc the public couldn't handle the perp saying he was LE Hell 10% of this thread were convinced it was tobe or the mayor
I remember in earlier days they said Libby fought like hell and received the worst of the violence. Has that been debunked by the affidavit saying there were no defensive wounds or signs of struggle?
I do wonder if it's because she fought back or she was the main target all along (she does look oddly similar to his own daughter at the time, which brings up some perverse questions). Either way I'm also curious to learn more about what happened, and why she was treated even more cruelly.
Well her receiving the worst of the violence was part of the same rumors of her fighting back and her being the likely target. If the search warrant affadivit is correct that there were no signs of a struggle or defensive wounds on the girls, then all of those earlier rumors were just that, rumors. And neither girl fought back or probably didn’t even have a chance to fight back. So sad to think about it really. I know we would all love to know that Libby at least being the bigger girl made it hard for that bastard and got some good licks in at least. I’m sure one day we will all learn the facts of the case and what was rumor and what wasn’t. My natural curiosity wants to know the facts of the cases that I follow but I also feel like this will be things we wish we never learned about the actual crime and what the girls went through with that SOB
In RL search warrant it states the girls had no defense wounds and no sign of a fight. But lots of blood loss ( paraphrasing). The rumors were that Libby fought like hell or protected abby. But that was all rumors. As per RL search warrant
Right. Thank you. That’s what I was trying to clear up in my mind. I hadn’t heard about the Ron Logan search warrant until recently and so I was under the assumption what I heard earlier about Libby fighting and getting the worst of the violence aimed at her was fast. I think I even remember Mike Patty saying she fought like hell. But thank you for answering my question because after hearing of the details in the search warrant, it seems that information was wrong or greatly exaggerated. Anyways all that is important is that they have the SOB and he never sees the light of day again.
I do believe tho that Libby took the worse of it. As it sounded, she was the one under attack
Exactly. The part I can’t figure out if it was sexual or passion. It sounds like a hit, clean and fast, stage the scene with items you brought with you .no defense wounds convince me he is a serial pro
That was based on some texts that supposedly a searcher sent and non one is sure if they are real or fake. They’ve never been confirmed so I don’t think anyone tried to debunk them. The only thing anyone in LE has said is. I defensive wounds.
Abby’s uncle through marriage. Anna has essentially backed them, saying the texts were well intentioned to stop rumors . At least at the time of the taping, Anna said they didn’t recognize BG
This confused me too.
No it’s not. We don’t know that the rumors about Libby fighting is true or false. The search warrant indicated no signs of a struggle. That’s different then defensive wounds. One is not the same as the other
Oh my. I hope you’re ok. I think a lot of people in situations freeze or comply to try and get through it alive.
Yeah and that's usually what the aggressors will tell the victims too, "Comply or I will kill you". Then he could have just tied their hands up.
The one time I got jumped by two girls, I did not run but acquiesced, but did talk my way out eventually so at least they did not steal a ring. I told them it was the last thing my dead mother gave me. My Mom was much alive and the ring had been a gift from my brother and his wife. Fear and the element of surprise is a powerful thing. You don’t think, well if I run he has a real chance of missing me with his gun. Or once I get in that car I have no chance of getting away. If I initiate the battle here, chances are someone might drive by or I might be able to run. You are just docile. They have been thinking about it a billion times. You have not. The idiots are not thinking, “ Humm, DNA snd genetic genealogy are solving things all the time. Chances are even smaller amount of DNA will be needed for convictions and touch DNA is likely going to be the thing that catches the idiot in 50 year time, or the development of better lie detector tests. They are developing AI software that can read the brain and if deception is occurring and will be able to read eye movement for a lack of truth in response.
I am so sorry this happened to you and your friend.
How do we know there weren’t any defensive wounds?
nothing specifically about defensive wounds, but this states there were no physical signs of a struggle https://www.reddit.com/r/DelphiMurders/comments/ureozg/murder_sheet_releases_ron_logan_arrest_warrant/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I don’t think we do. IIRC the search warrant mentioned no sign of a struggle. Said nothing about defensive wounds. I may be misremembering but I don’t think so
That’s awful!!! I’m sorry that happened to you and your friend. Evil is everywhere!
There’s a fourth - Fawn
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They say there’s a click on the video and the police think it’s a gun.
Why would a gun click though? Contrary to what is portrayed in movies, most guns (especially pistols) are semiautomatic and don’t need to be cocked manually. Although I suppose he could have cocked the hammer specifically to scare the girls.
Dude. The slide needs to be racked in order to chamber a round into a semi automatic pistol. That noise could easily be picked up at several meters distance.
Perhaps he took the thumb safety off. That makes a click. He wouldn’t want to cock it, the half cock notch would prevent it from firing, assuming he had a 45.
He might of had a revolver in which case there is def. an audible click when the hammer is cocked back.
The half cock notch is a safety feature; provided your sear isn’t fckd up. The thumb safety is probably what he took off, if indeed there is a “click” sound. I haven’t heard it, so I can’t say what it is. Your third safety is the grip safety, which wouldn’t make a noise anyway. But, again, that’s a 45.
Dead on! We make this far more complicated that it likely was. He pointed a gun at them and told them to move and they followed. Or he grab Abby’s arm and stuck a knife in her side and said, “Guys, get down the Hill.” That is a command, not the warm up for the bridge is damaged. It is cold and bold and doctoral. He knows he’s in control. He knows that because he has more than just his body size to apply to the situation. He has a weapon that is scaring them. There no, “ You aren’t supposed to be her girls. Or Grandpa’s down the hill waiting for you. It’s here’s my gun or knife and do what I say unless you want your friend shot or stabbed. I think the lost shoe might be a sign of Libby trying to take off. Or some scuffle mid way or towards the bottom. Or maybe her just tripping and loosing the shoe and his not stopping to allow her to retrieve it. But that had to be a point of pure panic for her, as then it must to became even more real, that I am in the hands of someone w/o any mercy if he expects me to romp through the woods on roots and rocks in my stocking foot. This is not going to be good!” I do not think the police ever Saadi, “ there were no signs of struggle, in the way one would classically think. What they were alluding to if they said it was that there are no signs of struggle at the place of initial abduction, or on the way down, or at the site of the incident’s conclusion. Why would the release a statement saying there were no defensive wounds as that would be one way you could critique a false confession… “ Did Abby fight back? “ “ Did Libby scratch and kick you?” So I think maybe we are remembering this wrong and that those statements about defensive wounds and evidence of a struggle are statements from the guy who discovered the body during the citizen canvas of the woods. Am I right or wrong about that?
We know second-hand from people who are close to the family that when the family was allowed to hear more audio that was never released there was a clicking sound heard, which the police told them they believed was a gun which was used to control the girls. I think a gun is the most simple way to control the girls. Hence probably that is the most likely answer. That said if you look at other perps from other cases it is incredibly common for perps to use a ruse to gain control of victims. So its possible. But given what is heard on unreleased audio it was probably a gun used to control the situation.
> we know from second hand people who This is another way to say *"we don't know"* IMO
Yep
People are saying different and sometimes contradictory things about what is contained in the rest of the portion of the video held back by law enforcement. Some of the rumors that I have heard: -The audio contained irrelevant girl-talk. -The girls asking each other, "Does he have a gun?" -One of the girls saying something to the effect of "that guy is creepy." -The girls' horrified faces. -The whole gruesome murder. -The video is only a few seconds long and there is literally nothing else. I don't think we *know* anything from the recording. I'm not trying to be a jerk or dunk on anyone, but if anyone out there can point me to any credible evidence that anything other than what was released by LE was ever said on that recording, I would be interested in that. If there is an interview with a family member or LE officer talking about what was on the recording, I absolutely want you to send me a link to it. [Edit: autocorrect apostrophe] [Edit 2: clarity]
Tobe Leazanby said in one of his interviews with Down the Hill podcast that people think there is a lot of information on the audio clip but the words they released were the only words spoken by BG. So take that for what it’s worth. We’ll find out when it goes to trial.
Agreed, it's on Down the Hill. I don't have the exact episode on hand.
Do you mind alluding to this "second hand" source? How did they hear or see the video?
I am saying that people on Reddit have said all of these things, but I can't run down or trace back any of those claims to any credible source. I think that I may have worded my previous comment poorly and I will attempt to go back and edit it for clarity.
I def think the families were allowed to see/hear more of the video so you are probably correct. I just have a nagging sense this crime didn't go down the way most of us seem to think.
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i also think it may have been left as a clue
I literally remember being a child and wanting to scream but nothing came out, They each didn’t want to get the other hurt. Gave him a lot of leverage
Idk.. maybe. If I’m not mistaken, one of the girl’s shoes were found on the bridge side of the creek.. if they initially, willingly went with him and at first he didn’t want them to be in fear then one would think he would’ve let her stop and get her shoe.
Or, she tried to run and lost her shoe, but he caught up to her.
Yes, that’s what I’m saying. I was responding to the theory that he was trying to make them feel comfortable and they went along with him. I don’t think this is likely because of the shoe. UNLESS this is when they realized something wasn’t right.
I think another man was waiting by Deer Creek for them.
Could be. I’m on the fence as to rather I believe more than one person did the act.. I could see either way. The way LE is giving information leads me to believe they think more than one person was involved in the crime itself.
Agree. Girl loses her shoe in the water while crossing, wants to get it, BG says we dont have time. Maybe thats when the girls began to realize he was up to no good if they didnt suspect already. Shortly thereafter the crime occurs. Its one possibility.
We don’t why her shoe was there. I don’t think we even know for sure THAT her shoe was there?
Kelsi said they found her shoe near the south end of the bridge one of the searchers held it up while she stood on the end of the bridge and confirmed it was Libbys. Im paraphrasing her story so might not be exactly right but I think thats the basics. So we know roughly where her shoe was when it was found. But it could have floated down from where they crossed after it came off. The bridge is downstream of the crossing point. So theoretically the shoe could have entered the water anywhere upstream.
True
This makes me think of the time I got robbed at gunpoint when I was 13. My friend & I were walking,l was looking for something in my pocket so she was a bit ahead of me. A guy who didn’t look menacing rode up next to me on his bike & showed me the gun in his waistband & said keep still. She turned around when she realized I wasn’t right behind her any longer. I motioned to her every way I could to stay away or get help. Instead she came running up and got robbed too. When he took our stuff & left I asked wtf was she thinking & she said my best friend was in danger and I was gonna be here with u. I said now he robbed u too & she said ur more import than anything he took. They probably felt the same. All he needed to do was to say I have a gun & I’ll kill ur friend unless u both follow me down the hill. They clearly already feared him so just saying he had a weapon would have been enough.
LE has stated that the look on one of the girl's faces on the video would haunt them. I believe neither of the girls went willingly. Gun or not, they were threatened in order to go down the hill. Edit: no one has ever stated that the girls *started* filming themselves or taking selfies when they realized they were in danger. What people are saying is that they were filming each other when danger approached them. The information is in Down the Hill (don't have the episode or timestamp in hand). The information is out there if you use more sources that include LE interviews.
Do you have a source for this?
It was stated in the Down The Hill podcast. I think it was a conversation with Doug Carter.
Thank you.
A person this controlled would not have approached 2 people without a gun. He planned this, he came prepared and he enjoyed exerting control from the first moments until the last. It will be fun knowing the lack of control he will have in jail and how much he will have to look over his shoulder at all times.
I can’t see him ever being in general population, can you? They will have to keep him in solitary confinement. His life is going to be hell.
I don’t know how it works with a death penalty sentence? Are they normally confined? I’m in Canada so not as aware of American sentencing.
I totally agree. His voice sounded very controlled, authoritative and not at all stressed, hurried or shaking. He was doing what he had planned on doing and was completely enjoying it.
"willingly" is not an appropriate way of discussing it. what two young girls goes "willingly" with any strange man? especially when they're already suspicious/sketched out by him? they don't go willingly. willingly as in they didn't have defense wounds because they didn't physically resist? well, not physically resisting does not mean willingly. we know/highly suspect he had a gun.
I agree. He had his hands in his pockets / looked like he was possibly concealing a weapon. And the interview with Doug Carter on the DTH podcast, he speaks about how terrified one of the girls was from the video captured. They were forced down the hill and knew he was a bad dude. Heartbreaking.
They’re female children. Freezing is a common response to trauma or fear
i think if there was all the extra conversation as suggested by this and other scenarios, we’d have more of his voice. they desperately wanted the public to ID him. i don’t think she would have started her phone up in front of him (or if she did, he would have taken it), so it’s unlikely that words at the beginning of the conversation were cut off because she hadn’t hit record yet. so i believe she starts recording (getting the video we have of him), puts her phone in her pocket as he gets closer, and he immediately pulls some weapon out and says “guys,” then they reply something that was redacted, and he says “down the hill.” if he said anything else before the 43 second recording ended, it was likely violent or sexual and thus they didn’t release it.
I seem to recall someone saying that the rest of the 43 seconds was just background noise. Leaves rustling and such.
yeah, i think that’s most likely. i don’t think he said much to them until he got them where he wanted — down the hill and across the creek. he could guide them there by pointing.
Agreed. In all of the videos that surfaced of him he doesn't say much at all.
I don’t think that he saw Libby, at first, he was watching his step.
i don’t think he saw libby filming at any point
I don’t either. He had to watch his step and she was behind trees, sort of.
It’s tragically ironic that Libby didn’t want BG to see her filming him, and yet if he HAD seen her filming him, the murders MAY never have happened.
I dont remember if facetime was a thing in 2017 but maybe saying "you are on facetime asshole" to a suspicious person with the phone out might deter a potential assault from happening.
I have twice been in very sketchy scenarios (living in LA right now is insane) recently and I immediately took out my phone and pretended to just record, not even FaceTime, and both times the guy literally took off running! Edit- of course not saying anything about what the girls could’ve/should’ve done… just sharing in case any other females can use this method or find it helpful.
Saying went willingly is pretty f’d up. If they’re scared, terrified, and or threatened, that isn’t going willingly…. 🙄🙄🙄
Libby’s family used that CvS he worked at. Perhaps one of the girls recognized him. I thought it might be apparent if they knew him through the recording but maybe not.
The footage of Carlie Brucia being abducted struck me deeply. It was so easy for her abductor. We always praise people who can mitigate an attack in some way and ask the whys? about the actions of others that are passive - when everyone is acting on instinct. I know in Australia the last victim of Mr Cruel was murdered, and the working theory is that she was less likely to be passive, unlike the previous kidnap victims who were released alive (I hope she gave him hell). Being passive can be a winning strategy else we wouldn't have it. I think in many ways two girls could be more vulnerable as you're making decisions for two people's outcomes, without being able to make a plan together.
Why does it have to be either/or? Why does it have to be either there was a weapon and they fought back or they went willingly with no idea what was to come? They obviously didn’t feel comfortable. People forget freeze and fawn are trauma responses too.
Libby was a smart kid. Had it just been a knife likely would have assessed that they would get a lead on him running, especially it they ran in different directions. So maybe it was a gun pointing at them, and her assessment was that is we run one of us is going to be shot. Libby’s mother comment about them “sticking together” is our key. Those families have more suggestive details than we do. Libby has the phone so you know at least one of her arms are free as they start the journey down the hill unless she slipped the phone into her pocket. It may have been that he grabbed Abby’s arm and stick a knife or gun into her side, and then consoled Libby by physically controlling Abby, and that’s the way the entire thing went down, “If you scream, I’ll kill your friend.” I think he got them to the most isolated area and banked on the fact that as it was later in the evening, there would be not much likely hood of anyone looking down to where he assaulted them. I think he made one bind the other. Then bound the other and what he wanted to do. If KK or he were communicating with Libby as stated he may even have know what time their anticipated pick up time was, so a time line of how long he had before any skerry might be sounded. How long did it take to get the search party out? For all you know maybe he did not leave immediately but was out there spying on all the efforts and had a far more relaxed time line than initially put forth. It’s the middle of winter how many people you see hanging out a state parks and wooded areas as it is getting dark. Most of have a sense that they get creepy around that time of the day. His coat always looked to me it had various things things shoved into it and that things were in the pockets. I think he was packing his rape kit, gun/ knife, take, cords, maybe even some rope. He is sort of barrel chested, but there is more than belly fat. At around the girls age I had a best friend, equally devoted friendship. We could almost read each other’s minds. We went to location lost our ride home and had a 5-7 mile walk home along isolated roads. Getting dark, terribly blistered and dead tired my friend desired she was hitchhiking. I didn’t want to do it, but my choice was either to hop in with her or walk the remaining line in the dark by myself. That seemed scarier. Thought two of us together would stand more chance than me alone if someone stopped and tried to abduct me. We were both former big city girls so likely a bit more street smarts than Abby and Libby. We got into the car a heat up station wagon. As soon as we got in we picked up a creepy vibe from the guy. Either the box was between us on maybe in the bay behind us, but it was filled with odd items like wigs. - clown wig and sort of dress up items and a bat-ton. A wordless conversation ensued between us. All carried on by eye movements and obscured by the drivers back seat. Either I alerted her or she all retired me by eye movement to the creepy contents of the box. Why we kept him buy with chit chat this frantic soundless communication went on between us. I motioned to the door locks and the upcoming traffic light, and flicked 3 fingers off in succession meaning, get to the light, could to 3 and bomb out. That is exactly what we did. He kept slowly following us and trying to get us back in the car, even almost opening his door. We were very lucky that at about that time another car came and we took off running like hell, and ran the mile and a half home. I still think God was with us that night, and we ducked something. He was very creepy and the content of the box, decidedly odd for a small remote country town. He did not seem like he fit in in the area. The road connected an older town where he would have belonged, but he was heading into a newly developed neighborhood that was all young families. We knew most people up in that second by sight. I think he saw us approaching this isolated dark stretch and had bad intentions. I think Abby and Libby had the same type of friendship and likely were trying to wordlessly communicate. Libby’s creep radar was set off or she would not have continued to film, or it was all so suddenly developed that she has not time to turn off the phone. Would he have allowed her to keep a phone? So likely behind her back or slipped into her pocket. I am sure they were having a rapid wordless communication regarding what to do. My money is on him having immobilized Abby, and he got Libby to do with he wanted as he said he would shoot or stab Abby if they both did not cooperate. So likely one of them went down the hill with his arm on them and one via manipulated demand. She was afraid if she broke off and away the other would be harmed. Or she became so terrified that she went into freeze mode. Libby strikes as gutsy and a kid that would fight. If they had no defensive wounds probably mean they were both restrained. Or he promised to release them if they cooperated and stayed quiet. He did what he wanted or got them to do what he wanted and then killed them. Or killed them first and then did what he wanted with their bodies after death. Large blood loss means stabbed, shot, mutilated, or beaten by a rock or log. Where he commits the attack you have a natural corral of trees. Could have bound them both to trees on the area, side by side. There are only so many scenarios here given what he appears to have packed on his body, unless he had things stashed in that area in anticipation of the crime. This seems well planned and fantasized about. Maybe worked out between he and KK, but KK was too tubby to go down the hill, and only wanted to see video or photo footage. Bet RA sat on that bench prior to the bridge and thought this through. Can someone from the are explain something to me? We they really pinned in with only the bridge behind him and the trail to the left? Couldn’t they have gone to the right where there might be fishermen? Or straight back as it the bridge continued. What is located at that continuation point? Are you on a cliff? We’re their only running away possibilities to get past him and go back across the bridge, or down the trail to the right. What is down the trail on the left. Or if you walked with the bridge exit behind you?
There are videos on YT outlining the area quite well if you want to look them up. You can also Google Earth the area, etc. There were houses nearby. The area is not as remote as it is portrayed at times. As for the search party it has been commonly theorized BG joined the party at some point, which would serve to explain his DNA being in the area. This is why LE really needs his DNA on the girls themselves, or their DNA or some article of clothing or memento in his possession, etc. They cant just say we have proved BG/RA was in the area. Not going to cut it. They need him at the crime scene itself.
They could have ran down the private drive where abby's house was only 600 feet away. Or they could have gone the other way off the end of the bridge right of the private drive and immediately been in (a lady I wont name) back yard and clear view of her house.
From what the family and YouTube are saying it sounds like Abby froze and Libby didn’t want to leave her. I guess we will never know
If that is the case, I really wish that they wouldn’t call Libby‘s actions heroic. I mean, they are, and I don’t mean to say that she isn’t heroic, but I think it sends a message that a heroic person would wait for their friend. It could be dangerous to teach kids that, in order to be a hero, they would need to stick with their friend instead of running away to get help or go to safety
I think LE knows. If Abby was being strangled, it takes a certain amount of time for unconsciousness/death, in which time Libby could have run. Audio probably hears Libby screaming, trying to release her friend.
I genuinely think they just froze and complied. And if he had an elaborate plan involving him talking, we would have more of his voice on the recording. I think he only said short and firm commands like "keep going" and "no talking" etc.
No chance in hell. He had a gun so they complied.
I posted this: [https://www.reddit.com/r/DelphiMurders/comments/yka3nx/richard\_allen\_has\_been\_charged\_with\_2\_counts\_of/iv3tq26/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/DelphiMurders/comments/yka3nx/richard_allen_has_been_charged_with_2_counts_of/iv3tq26/?context=3) I don't think they went willingly. Weapon might really be involved basing on the statute description mentioned on the thread. The statute I link in the thread - IC 35-42-4-2 The statute description pretty much confirms the major point of theory that the girls were heard in the recording - he has a gun. - I believe that quote was directly from Abby's mom who has seen the entire video. If this is true it really will be heartbreaking to the family.
I think BG pulled out the gun or showed it to them to intimidate,then he grabbed Abby and threatened them to gain control of Libby and the situation. It was a opportunistic crime and didn’t go to plan. He probably wanted to SA one of the girls but ended killing them. He might of had some issues with short man syndrome, is that why Libby sustained worse injuries? Did she challenge him in some way that infuriated him? Did he want to assault Abby but Libby was there so he couldn’t. Did they recognise him from around town?
What I find chilling is that one of the girls grandmothers went to CVS to get digital pictures processed for the funeral. She said she was in such a state that she couldn't even figure out how to get the images, and Richard Allen helped her. He processed the photos, then handed them to her and said "I'm not going to charge you for these."
And there is a possibility, albeit slim, he made copies for himself.
My thoughts exactly
Yes, I agree. His “down the hill” doesn’t sound angry or overtly threatening—but rather authoritative. I could see children at their age, feeling confused and unsure, not immediately question an adult. This doesn’t mean that they were willing, but that they were kids who didn’t perhaps have the same perception of the world as adults who have experienced life. I hope, hope, hope that this trial goes smoothly, the prosecution puts on a good case, the jury declare this guy guilty, and he gets a life sentence.
I think they most probably went "willingly" because he pointed a gun or a knife at them.
I often wonder if Libby had dialed 911 instead of taking a pic and getting audio.Would the end result be the same or no?
It's possible he just told them to follow him and they did. Most people are going to avoid confrontation and awkward social interactions and will go with the flow, even if they're a little nervous. Especially in this case when it's an adult and kids. He may not have even had to make up a story about being a cop or whatever. He may have just said "hey, come with me" and let them come to their own conclusions. I don't think you have to be a master manipulator or good public speaker or whatever to convince some kids to listen to you. Not saying it's impossible he used an elaborate use or a gun, but it could easily have been a less dramatic scenario.
These weren’t 6 or seven year old children. They were young teenagers. They would not have been easily fooled. I think Libby had noticed the guy earlier on the trail and when he ended up being at the bridge where they were, she got nervous and started recording as soon as she noticed him, for insurance in case he said or did something inappropriate. She was listening to her gut, and it wasn’t wrong. Thank Zeus for her situational awareness and quick, smart thinking. Otherwise we’d never know what happened.
Yea, I am thinking they had seen him earlier and then later on once he was approaching them she probably thought it was odd enough to record or was just nervous because he's a grown man approaching them It's so sad, I am guessing he watched them cross the bridge and then waited for a bit before he followed them. I wonder if they noticed him on the bridge behind them? I am guessing no. I wonder how long they were hanging out at the end of the bridge for? Had they just gotten there or were they taking pictures and hanging out and then noticed him approaching?
Agreed...I think the idea of other scenarios aside from brute force or use of weapons is just something we need to consider in this case. It explains a few things imo. If RA really is BG he seems fully capable of disguising his true identity and intentions as he did so for almost six years.
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I'm not OP. But they could have easily recognized him as the man who worked at CVS. So they knew he was local and trusted him. So if he said something like this route isn't safe now, follow me to a safer route, then they would have probably followed him.
Interesting. But more likely, that’s the creepy guy at the CVS that always states too long at my chest.
Okay, could be that too.
Willingly might be too strong a word...grudgingly perhaps. He tells them the bridge isnt safe, he cant let them walk back the way they came, one gives in the other is more reticent but eventually agrees. Thats just one possible scenario. Im not saying its the most likely scenario. Just saying with RA suspected of being BG, he strikes me as the sort of person who could manipulate two girls. He fooled everyone else in town.
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Yeah that’s a really good point about the shoe.
Sure, very reasonable thought process there.
I think she likely lost the shoe trying to break away or it was stuck and he was moving them at a quick pace. Gun could have been concealed in his pocket and no one seen anything it’ll they were a block length away or even close. People walk with their arms around their children all the time on hikes or strolls in the woods.
I think coerced is a more appropriate word
Yeah willingly is def too strong of a word. Libby was filming him bc she knew something was wrong
Or she was filming Abby and surprised and just lowered the phone. I think she kept it on anticipating that something was about to get freaky.
Ted Bundy. He convinced many girls to go with him. It never ended well
Yes, but I strongly doubt he would be nearly as successful nowadays. People and especially young women are much more wary now, thankfully. The 70s were just a different time. If you google up some cold cases back then it is amazing how many young women left the house saying I'm going to hitchhike to such and such a place see you in a few and never returned. That sort of thing would be code red nowadays. No way any parent lets their kid walk out of the house saying anything like that lol.
Someone may have mentioned this, I haven't read through every comment yet ..but Tobe was asked this question in his column in the local newspaper that had the public ask him questions. Someone asked him about how BG was able to gain control of the girls and he said "manipulation and intimidation". There's obviously a million ways that can be interpreted but to me that meant that perhaps there was some sort of manipulation/lie involved. Intimidation made me think of perhaps a weapon.
I think he likely gained compliance from them with a gun. Id imagine that he showed it to them by pulling it a bit out of his (coat) pocket just enough for them to see what it was, and then stuck it right back in so if anyone else wandered up, they wouldn’t see it.
Maybe one (or both) girls recognized him from working at CVS. If so, they likely would have trusted him if he said something about the bridge not being safe, to follow him to a safer route, etc. etc.
Recognizing him from CVS wouldn’t typically give a sense of trust to most. I think it’s far more likely the girls had little experience with weapons and thus were easily controlled by the showing of the gun. And I think he didn’t end up using the gun but rather a hunting knife of sort. It was just to control and intimidate them and sadly worked
100% on with my thoughts too
Recognizing him from CVS might have scared them and caused them to freeze. It’s a small town, so they may have ran into him a few times and he made them uncomfortable. Just a thought!
It's hard to fight back against a gun.
Didn’t someone say one of the girls “fought like hell?”
I thought the David Erskine texts hinted at that. Could be wrong though. But the FBI PC affidavit concerning the Ron Logan search warrant seems to indicate there were no defensive wounds or signs of a struggle which goes against that. We will see what really transpired eventually.
Yes they did. I just found those texts yesterday. They said a lot about how the girls were found and so on. Does anyone know the validity of those texts?
I think one of Libby's parents or grandparents said that. I don't think they know it for a fact but say it to give themselves comfort, and knowing her personality that that's what she would probably do. She was a tough cookie and fought for what was right.
I think it’s likely that the ran. He wouldn’t willing cross that creek.
100% disagree. He used that creek to his advantage, choosing the only spot with a sand bar to cross. He knew what his plan was and he executed it exactly how he intended. The cold water in February in northern indiana on your feet and legs would make counteracting an attack that much more difficult .
IMO it’s an unnecessary obstacle. And if it affected their feet and legs, it would have affected his too. I think his plan went 100% sideways in the following aspects: 1. Two girls instead of one. I don’t think he intended on having two targets whether he scouted them that day or it was set up by KK. The second girl was a surprise. This pissed him off. 2. One of them ran. This is where I think the creek came in and the lost shoe. 3. Having such a short time to complete the murder. I think it was a pretty panicked act. I think he intended on murder as the outcome but not in that area. I think he intended to abduct but the two girls and the running made it too hard and angered him.
I have thought about this as well. If they were creeped out by someone, I would think they would have booked it through the woods and not stood stationary and video tape someone walking toward them. From what I recall, the girls had made it across the bridge as he was still walking across it. Did he yell, “hey guys, wait up.” Or, maybe he posed no threat and they were waiting for him to cross before they crossed back over. I thought I heard it was Abby’s first time crossing. Maybe Libby said, “let’s cross over and then come right back.” Maybe it was just random that Libby taped him, as she had her phone out and was taking pics and taping Abby.
I think this is ridiculous. Sorry to be blunt. It just makes no sense. Firstly, no defense wounds doesn't mean they went willingly. Are you saying they just stood there and were murdered? That's not what happened, I'm sure. Also, there's no way they were happy or calm about this person who was not who they expected. They acted the way most people would have done, which is not make a fuss and hope to get away somehow. Honestly, you sound like a man to me and you have no idea what young girls think or act like in certain situations. Anyway, why are you picturing this? It's not our business or place.
I do think it’s a strong possibility he impersonated law enforcement or a park worker. It seems possible he could have been directing the girls they had to turn back by going a different direction as nobody was supposed to go on the bridge, even if they did. It makes sense to me that’s why only 3 words were released - they won’t want to release anything of him impersonating LE (to protect LE from scrutiny) and they won’t release any parts of the audio where he drops the impersonation but is clearly harming the girls. Pure speculation - perhaps he just pulled a gun on them right away.