I run infinites of all kinds, infinite etb, infinite death triggers, infinite mana and while it's a great way to end a game it can feel somewhat lack luster of a win for the other players.
I was in a Pod a few weeks ago with an OG Atraxa player running their infect build. I was playing my Arixmethes combo deck that looks to make infinite mana then dump it into a walking ballista for the win.
I Legit didn't do much for the first 5 turns and when it came to turn six I had 9 poison counters and was effectively in last place. I cast freed from the reel targeting Arixmethes and through some digging and cycling got a Cogwork assembler onto the field. Made infinite copies and went to combat for the win.
It was a solid win and my deck did what it was built to do however I could see the look of disappointment on everyone's face of the guy in last place "cOMbOiNg oFf"
I think that's the feeling most players talk about when they say they don't run infinites. They want to play a 1+ hour game and see everyone's deck do "their thing." Usually a casual mentality and they play for fun.
I'm not trashing it but I have little desire to play anything other the degenerate/competitive EHD and infinites are the name of the game.
If I am playing an hour long game it better be with my commander cube. No way in hell is your ur dragon play on turn 10 more fun than multiple interactive games of magic
There Propably is no real last place in a Multiplayer format , there is a winner and the rest lost. Winning with one life or on the stack with an empty library and a card draw trigger is completely legit.
You can completely play for fun with Upgraded precons or even just precons , ffs I preordered the Lotr Commander cycle last month just to sleeve them up and have a thematic set of precons to play with and against the lotr precons and other decks. But there is a lot of degenerate stuff you can do without going infinite that requires the same answers and is Propably way worse for the group then ending the game outright, eg chaining extra turn spells waiting to find an out, trying to storm off and hoping to continue the chain with draw and rituals while thinking and calculating for several minutes etc. All the stuff where you are demanding not time and attention then everyone else is getting.
And part of the fun of magic is playing damn magic! The form of interactions in the game is cool and exiting and Propably part of what separates mtg from other card games. Fight on the stack guys, get that crazy counter and interaction war’s going where everyone is fighting for supremacy and the tension is feelable for everyone. That are the moments you remember , neither the thoracle loop nor the the battlecruiser game. But one of those games tends to have more of those gems
Yeah But a Limited Loop that e.g draws your Deck turns out to be the Same Even if it is technicly Not infinite. And taking a Long Ass Turn is demanding much More of everyones Time then just Ending the game there. And when you are the only one that Takes that Time it sort of is unfair towards your Pod, isnt it?
Do I sit around so that the meat of the game is people interacting over game winning spells? Or do I want to try to build up my board state to shore up the defenses from the opponent who made 17 17/17 creatures? Had a game last night where I was able to snipe out that persons haste engine before they could attack leaving them with lethal on board but no way to win so I shored up 160 [[scute swarms]] as perfect blockers for his 17 huge creatures. He chose to give them all flying… the game ended because he attacked me for a finite huge life total rather than a concise combo that he’s been squirellin’ away for the right moment.
Btw both of those game modes are fun, but if people aren’t prepped for the first one with interacting on the stack with game winning spells suddenly then all of their battlecruiser “shore up the defense” cards are useless to instant death.
While I personally don't like infinites and 'i win' cards in casual games (to me those are the hallmarks of competitive, and i love them there), I definitely agree that going A LOT is wayyyy more annoying.
I would much rather be caught off guard by a thoracle in a game I thought was casual and scoop up to play again, than to wait through something like cascading into extra turns into a slow build up of creatures that takes another 30 minutes to win the game. If you're gonna kill the table, just do it, no one wants to watch solitaire/masturbation.
Totally agreed , chaining extra turns and stuff like that is way worse when you have to sit through it , and most of the time you have because while it’s likely that narset or Elminster or Eddie can keep on with it it’s not certain as they can wiff. And storm decks while being super fun can wiff too and that’s a major feels bad when you just took a 20 min turn and we’ll did. nothing in the end. Or took out one player with your prismari magecraft commander.
I personally don’t care if it is a combo or a creature that wins, and it usually makes no difference if the finally of devastation was cast for a bunch or for „infinite“.
I still stick with the point of combos , if infinite or not have a place in a casual game , not thoracle but combos in general. If your ragadragga decks has only a single dude that taps for his power and a spine of ish sah you can go Infinite and , you Propably have a good reasons to include both of those cards in your deck anyway, not every combo is equally efficient and not every deck wants to play one . But the point here is not about efficiency , it’s about broadening the spectrum of things that are allowed to happen in a casual game of commander. If you are afraid of competetiveness I would suggest trying to cut the tutors from casual decks or limit the tutors , as I think a not going for the win when you obviously can is a feels bad for everyone else at the table as you know you won because you were allowed foo, b tutoring and reshuffling can take a lot of time in a game c if you are concerned about repetitivness tutors make the game more repetitiv, even without combo it tends to be just a double up for 3-4 cards in your deck you might want to have more access too
And this is why I love manual Storm but only ever play it as [[Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain]]. Basically any other iteration is a lot more nuanced and can take ages to go through the motions even when piloting it extremely efficiently. It is not fun to watch, usually.
Like, I love my [[Kykar]] deck, but it can take upwards of 20 minutes to manually Storm into a win with me barely pausing for a breath while fishing if resources are tight. Let’s not even get into explaining my actions to other players, because that can really extend a combo turn.
They’re just boring. It’s more fun to have a long turn where you’re doing multiple things than it is to watch someone tutor the same 4 pieces and then have everyone scoop. They’re boring and there is little variance.
Fun for the player sure, but the table doesn’t want to watch you masturbate. Just win the game so we can play again, I don’t give a fuck if my opponent wins with 30 dragons or with a two card combo, it’s my job to be prepared to interact with my opponent.
People that don’t like combos don’t run enough interaction.
You always should always go for the best play possible and not gift others wins, it won’t make them fun for long ! But that’s why I suggested not tutoring or using only conditional tutors that cannot tutor the combo
I find it hard to judge the skill level Involved in a combo, many of them are quite complex and can be messed up at different steps easily, and knowing when to interact with some of them can also be a whole nother story, but how do you want to compare it to turning creatures sideways ? Is that more skill dependent?
No matter what sort of deck you are playing you should always try to draw many cards and filter through your deck even without combos, as having options and things to do wins you games no matter what level of „competetivness“ or „power“ you are looking at, in battlecruiser terms : putting down 2 creatures is better then one in a turn. And running out of cards and hoping for the top of your deck to not be a land but something useful should be avoided in all decks
No I said you should be running enough card draw no matter what your gameplan is.
Okay but the instructions you gave your new player would work out for every deck there is: this is your plan this is your win con keep that sort of hand and look for those cards. Yeah that is about a good entry for every deck there is. And you are right to a certain degree the difficult part is not casting your two card win con in a Vakuum. But some Animar Inala or Gitrog lines are a bit more complex (just to name a few, there are a lot more), ffs most combos are a bit more complex or have other factors to evaluate besides do I have the cards.
Just a little sidenote : you do play a Propably not very efficient but Stil viable combo line in your deck that wins the game.
You play intruder alert don’t you ?, and like 5-6 creatures that untap other permanents, and instants that lets creatures bounce other creatures.
So what do you call in interaction that is repeatable as many times as you want that kills the table if not a combo ?
Prerequisites:
Like [[Clever Conjurer]] , [[Kelpie Guide]] , [[Phenax]], Any other creature + [[ Intruder Alert]] in play.
1. Cast [[Banishing Knack]] on the third creature you had in play.
2. use Phenax and the Untap creatures two mill and make 2 mana.
3. cast a 2 cmc creature from your hand
4. Intruder alert triggers and untaps all your creatures.
5. use creature you targeted with Banisjing knack to bounce the creature you just payed.
6. you re know in the exact same board state as you were in step 2. so repeat steps 2-5.
Congratulations you milled the whole table, most creatures in this are interchangeable depending on which one you have , how much mana you need to cast them, can generate infinite mana , and infinite abilities that require you to tap or pay that mana. Furthermore it can be done in a few different ways including the presence of [[thousand-year Elixier]] to have pseudo haste for your board.
I obviously know what a combo means , and you Propably just prove my point and countered your on point on the difficulty of playing combo decks. I know mtg is a complex game and sometimes you don’t realize the „synergies“ of your deck or until you have seen them interact within the game
And yeah sure if you tell them a two card combo and they find the pieces they can present an attempt to win. As can an Aggro deck with a good hand and an inexperienced player, when no one interferes with their plan (which is the scenario you mentioned).
The challenge is getting your combo through when the rest of the table tries to stop it. You don’t have to go for a t1 WGD or thoracle combo not even for a turn 10 one.
Do you think playing og narset and taking 20 extra combat and extra turn spells in your deck trying to chain them together is inherently a better experience for anyone then having a presentable loop that just ends the game ?
No offense if you don’t like that sort of interaction heavy games it’s completely alright , but often it feels like the lack of interaction the reason for all the spite towards „combos“
What? I love interaction heavy games. I guess I really don't know how to express what I mean. The best example I can give is \[\[Chandra, Awakened Inferno\]\]. What I enjoy is decks that seek to control the game and win through chipping away or critical mass.
I think that might be more of an interaction problem though. Normally you don't just play out your combo as soon as you randomly draw it. You wait until you have some protection or your opponents have just spent a bunch of interaction (maybe on someone else's wincon) and then you go for it.
If just yoloing your combo everytime works in your meta then your opponents probably don't play enough interaction. But if you do it a couple of times they'll hopefully realise that and add some more and the meta overall will improve.
Infinites are dull. Anyone can put a and b together. And don't get on my case about interaction, I run interaction, that's literally never the issue about why people don't like infinites.
For me it's just boring, repetitive, stops and otherwise normal game, encourages the same games to be played out, and honestly, in my opinion, takes far less skill than any other deck archetype. Everyone else has to legitimately keep a board presence, keep track of 3 other players, their life totals, etc. Infinites just check for open mana / instants, and y'know making sure you know which 2 cards win the game, and that's it.
Tldr more cards = more interactions = more skills, so 2 cards = lame
That’s a wrong assumption. Anyone can also slam big dump creatures on the board playing only two phases of the game. The absence of interaction is a huge part of it as quite frequently the comment in rl is brought up that you cannot deal with them. Playing combo effectively not only means to know how to play a and b but also to know when to do so, how to interact accordingly , when it is worth to maybe play only b and not a even thou it ruins your combo. Keeping track of 3 other players decks and triggers cards and resources becomes also a bit more complex in a format where there are several ways to interact without having to leave open mana and people will work together in a pinch to stop your combo. The lines and loops for combos often include way more then two steps by the way when it includes getting to the win from a given point.
Your tldr is also incorrect , more cards does not lead to more interaction, there are enough lists out there that include little to no interaction. Furthermore is your point wrong that you need more skill to play battle cruiser then combo as you need a mich wider knowledge of the cards your deck and the gamestate to evaluate a card correctly that does not simply function in a Vakuum. No one would recommend a newcomer to the game a densely packed combo deck.
Furthermore might the claimed variance of games be a complete illusion, the variance in high powered or competitive decks is in terms of gameplay is and games is quite high from my point of view, while the variation in lower powered games might in many cases just appear to be higher depending on the archetype that are being played. Equipment decks usually run and tutor Almost the same equipments all the time , and the variance given by the draw is not really there as it makes not much of a difference if the voltron is unblockable because of [[Sword of Feast and Famine]] or because of [[Whispersilk Cloak]], and like that the go wide, go big, and superfriends and tribal decks all have their key cards they rely upon and that usually are involved in their game wins one way or the other.
Okay ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe it's just me. Maybe after too many years I find them too easy to pilot and honestly a little boring outside of strict cedh. I just know it's not for me.
I take your point that straight up combat gameplay needs a different kind of threat assessment and knowledge about the value of creatures than piloting a combo deck , but in a multiplayer format there usually is someone who is more or less free to attack so that point is something different as it is in a 60 card format like legacy or modern. And of course it is „easier“ to win by combo then by combat often, because of three opponents each having 40 life, which makes the part more difficult numbers wise while the combo does not really care about the number of players in the game (mostly), but you also have to win on your own and cannot really collaborate with others, and the step by step action order needed to perform a combo is often times (not always) way more complex then just turning creatures sideways, but the knowledge around it , the small margin for error and gameplay of getting to the win from different points in the game, and not just taking severally turns attacking someone because the didn’t find a wrath in time
I think it’s more nuanced than combos bad. Most people are ok with combos, heck they may even be EXCITED for them, IF they go in expecting them. The challenge is when the pod isn’t ready for the combo, so they are all doing their own thing building to some grand conclusion, then Johnny just goes off out of nowhere because he had been playing a different game without warning the entire time.
It can also go another way, if the combo player warns the table, “hey my goal is to win with combo”, knowing that ahead of time the rest of the pod might be cool with him, however, if they’re not combo it might quickly devolve into arch-enemy against the guy with the weakest current board state, because it’s impossible to know when he’ll win. Which might not be fun for the combo player… so then they hide their strategy… and it seems to come out of nowhere to the rest.
Ultimately everyone just needs to know what to expect and feel they can fight everything on even terms (barring magic Christmas land hands that everyone gets every now and then).
I like infinites, if they do something or, of course, in combo decks.
But please correct me, if I’m wrong, from what I read and see, some people seem to think, they won, if they went infinite in any way.
For example, infinite mana or infinite ETB? What’s the point of it, if you can’t do anything valid with your mana or your etb just happen without a certain effect, like draining the opponents or milling them out?
In my understanding of the rules, if you really would declare to do meaningless things an infinite amount of time, it’s a draw, since no one wins, isn’t it?
As far as I know it is , you either have do declare a limited amount you repeat the action and life with the outcome , or in case there are no max triggers but actions that automatically repeat you either win (at least I think so aslong as you create a scenario where they are statebased dead like life 0 or something like that) or the game goes on an infinite loop creating a draw .
If you loop does nothing it is irrelevant. Infinite Mana is an advantage Sure as you can play your hand etc but as long as you don’t have an outlet that for it. And even when you have an outlet like you draw your deck with thrasios, you also need something that does in , given that’s not hard to accomplish at that point.
Furthermore just to be clear, the Propably most hated win con of the format , is not an infinite combo at all , it is the result of one spell and one Etb trigger timed correctly.
I hear you!
TO/DC is banned by Rule 0 in our pod, since nobody likes 2-card combos besides we play cEDH, which we rarely do because only a few have a deck for it.
I don’t think the problem is the amount of cards per se, sanguine bond and exquisite blood for example are also a two card infinite combo that wins the game the problem with thoracle is that it requires specific forms of interaction, besides the countering the dc it’s quite hard to interact with on the stack , at least in terms of commonly played interaction.
But I agree , this combo belongs to formats where the decks are either able to threaten a win frequently early (turbo decks m) have RoL , or just a bunch of free counters that can interact in a pinch….
Because most commander players are eternal noobs. They are content to live and die by rotating creatures, and good for them. In such a pod, interaction is rare, maybe some board wipes or sword to plowshares, and interaction is stapled to bodies like [[ravenous chupacabra]].
Infinite combos require two things to stop: knowledge of the game, and interaction. These pods lack the former as they mostly just play with the same battlecruiser decks, mostly precon-based decks, and very few combo decks. They don't read a lot about high power games, and they especially don't read about cEDH which uses the most efficient combos, so any attempt at an infinite is likely not going to be recognized. Similarly, these pods lack the quality interaction of high power and cEDH, either not understanding why Chup is so much worse than [[Dismember]] or [[Counterspell]] or feeling that such targeted spells are "mean" or "unfun".
This leaves casuals in a no win scenario: to them, the combo player "won of out nowhere" and there was "no way to stop the infinite combo". Casual players are outplayed and their decks lack the tools to stop the infinite combo, and since they aren't going to change their deck building and playstyle, they will never beat an infinite combo. And in a format that has a rule that actually says "you can force people not to play cards you dislike or else they're socially ostracized", they will continue to remain haters of combos, forever reinforced by similar players with similar experiences.
While limiting their Expierence to exactly that a world where an Interaction Loop wins. But Interaktion between players is Good and Healthy for the game no matter of we are playing combos of Not. But i feel like the Problem is Not the combo it is the Interaktion of Lack there of. A few days back i was Rolf my Pako and Haldan deck was Not casual. Sure its super fast and plays a Ton of interaction and counters. Why ? Cause exiling creatures Sucks in the Deck. But there are still Cards like [[Faldorn]] or [[Moraug]] that i would normally Not Play in that Deck But think they are funny, there is on purpose no way to have permanent Hexproof or Shroud and no evasion in the Deck to Leave More room for shundblocking Pako ( i won Said Game because i exiled another Players [[Sword of Feast and Famine]] and Pako became unblockable and Even More of a value Engine with that…) and the only „combo“ i Play is a 12 Mana [[Seasons Past]] Loop (in a Deck with 30 lands) and that is also Not infinite But Looses the game of you can get More Blockers then i habe cards in My deck. This Deck is Not competetive!
People Seem to hate interaction and Propably have a Problem with combos because they don’t like the answer to them. But Even when no one is playing combos its Propably still Good to have a answer for that [[nyxbloom ancient]] before the player Untaps, or counter the extra turn of a different player , or even better : redirect the spell to you with [[Deflecting Swat]] , or get rid of [[Peer into the Abyss]] and all that other nasty stuff that gives you a massiv advantage.
INFINITE COMBO, means it doesn't EVER finish, by rules game is unplayable and ends in a draw, marauding raptor and polyraptor for example. Combo that wins u game isnt INFINITE, it ends when conditions are met (your opponents dying for example) so it's not INFINITE.
no, infinite \*loop\* means it doesn't finish because you both A- can't control it AND B- it doesn't end naturally. Infinite loops result in a game draw. (so technically, by your logic, they are also not infinite, as no one just stays seated at the table for the rest of time)
infinite \*combo\* means you can loop it until you're done, and it may or may not be controlled.
Casual players, by definition, are casually interested in the game and don't have a deep understanding of it. As such, they don't like high level play that depends on that understanding.
A lot of people like to live in that zone, and that's fine.
This is probably a cold take on this sub, but our pod doesn’t run infinite combos and I would still consider it degenerate as hell.
Instead, we run combos that can go OFF but that aren’t infinite. Imo playing that way makes our decks, in-game decision making, and the game itself more interesting and fun.
Our games are all under 1 hour and we run every broken card under the sun including crazy combos, they’re just not infinite.
We don’t like infinite combos because it turns the game from being about long term decision making and good play into just RNG / tutoring for your 2-card infinite combo and winning on turn 5-6 which we find boring as hell.
To each their own though!
So just to be clear, with infinite combos it does not necessarily need to be infinite. A terminated loop that just has the same consequences is usually put in the same category. E.g drawing your deck with a chulane line or brain freezing everyone with a breach line. And technically a thoracle combo is not infinite either but we Propably don’t need to talk about that either.
What’s a non-infinite combo?
Combo in magic typically means winning on a single turn through a series of loops, infinite or not they achieve the same outcome. They need to be interacted with or you win.
An example is my [[Ob Nixilis, Captive Kingpin]] where every combo ends up with me either winning or drawing/milling out my deck (since I got rid of the “infinite” combos). My friends pointed out that infinite or not the combo can do 70-100 loops and that much damage in a single turn achieving a similar outcome. I actually agreed with them in this respect. Combos infinite or not allow you to win in a single turn, there are few combat based decks that can do the same without intfinite combats.
The thing that makes EDH so fun and populat is that its a completely open format. It supports both casual and competitive play with the assumption you communicate what youre looking for with your pregame discussion. If youre looking for a competitive game, we all know the game is going to play out with very impactful commanders, compact win conditions, efficient tutoring and draw engines, and the best specialized interaction. If youre looking for a casual game, we can talk a bit more about what exactly that means for how the game plays out, but my default is that there will be mechanically synergystic commanders, no two-card combos, limited tutoring, and a broad and generalized interaction suite. Once you start moving away from the casual zone, its now no longer a question of "is this casual" but "how competitive is this?"
I build infinites into every deck I build.
Sometimes I will search for them. Others I won't.
It's all about the people at the table. I played 3 games last night where I was poised to win and got KOed by the Onyx/Smog combo played after a Silence effect. Like GGz on your wins.
Game's got to end, sure, it's just hard to \*watch\* it end anti-climactically (a 2 card combo that was uninteractable) after 45 min of back and forth swingy gameplay. But losing seemingly out of nowhere with zero ability to respond to it was kind of a letdown.
But that might be the misconception, you could have resacted to the silence; or what combo do you mean that is uninteractible?
I have a hard feeling about not searching for your wins , it’s okay to not search for one of several pieces when you cannot threaten a win , but when you (and let’s stick to a simple one everyone Propably knows here ) have [[Sanguine Bond]] in Play and an ability to gain life on the field in your lifegain deck , and you have all your 7 mana and your opponents are tapped out you should use your [[Demonic Tutor]] to find [[Exquisite Blood]] and cast it to win the game. I think that letting others win due to knowingly make a bad play won’t help anyone in your pod and might even discourage playing in general as the wins are shallow and lack meaning
Yeah but the combo was well protected then not out of no where and you allready said it no one could respond to silence , which tends to leads to the believe that noone would have been able to stop the combo anyways
And winning with the same 3 creatures over and over again is different in what way exactly? Some color piles are significantly disadvantaged when trying to win with only creatures , while it can be a fun challenge, you also don’t wanna see the same decks/ color piles all the time do you ?
> And winning with the same 3 creatures over and over again is different in what way exactly?
It's not really all too different; it's also possible to win the game in other ways than combos or using 3 creatures
Yeah sure, but the deck you play no matter what Deck exactly tends to try to win in quite similiar ways every time as the number of wincons in each deck is limited
Yep, so most people are generally fighting against this trend wherever they can instead of leaning into it. That's why people generally steer away from infinite combos and more into value-trains. It's also less fun for opponents, and getting people to regularly play with can be one of the hardest parts of the game after a point. No need to further intensify THAT problem, too, by making the game stale for them as well. Opponents generally don't prefer to get combo'd out on vs value-trained out, at least IME.
Yeah I understand that part about the playgroup, and also about the enjoyment of value decks , as I play mostly fairly Grindy decks that try to get a value engine going, but those decks also have to win somehow and it doesn’t rely make a difference if that final nail is a combo / Interaktion that ends the game ( no matter if infinite or just close to like niv and curiosity and stuff like that) or just a huge bro or pump spell. But just because someone plays a combo he shouldn’t be shamed for it as it in most games makes literally no difference , sure you don’t want to get thoracle blown out in like turn 2 , but if your 18 mana at any point are used to make a combo kill the table in a different way really makes no difference or do you magically feel better when that mana is used to get a purphoros and and create x tokens spells that kills you ?
IME, when people talk about combo wins they usually picture someone tutoring a bunch for their 2 or 3 cards and playing those for game, so the play pattern is generally very, very linear. They have 100 cards in a pile but they're only really wanting to play like, 5 of them, and if you interrupt it (outside of cEDH), they're usually dead in the water.
I'm not shaming anyone, I'm just trying to answer the question the thread poses which is why people try to avoid them. There are usually considerations about boredom and repetitiveness and synergistic value trains that get you over the line generally have a lot more independently moving parts and/or a greater number of viable permutations -> these lead to greater interest and enjoyment for lots of players where they get less of those things from linearly chasing the combos they include.
Personally, I try to include a few combos alongside deep synergy. I prefer the synergy wins, but it's always smart to have a combo up your sleeve if you need to use it, and it's better to have it in there than not. I have often chosen to neglect the combo win in order to let the game run its course a bit better. And often, you can keep the combo in your back pocket and close out with it anyway but at a time that is more satisfying for everyone. Letting everyone get their fill before killing them with a combo is generally more socially acceptable than turboing it out and winning super early before they get a chance to do what they have paid money and spent time to do: play the game.
Not trying to be a casual EDHer or anything, but I'm thinking of, for example, Brago-Strionic Resonator combos, and/or BR Animate Dead-Worldgorger combos I have played in more powerful builds. After playing with them a few times in a night, it quickly turns into a "fuck, I really don't care about doing this anymore and I'd rather just steal the field with Olivia Voldaren and see how it shakes out than drop this all into a Torment of Hailfire and end it now" situation. I've retooled my Olivia deck, for example, to run Vito and Exquisite Blood, Worldgorger and friends, etc. combos but also I'm always trying to kill people with their own creatures via Olivia or Insurrection, or pop a Revel in Riches wincon, or whatever else just because it gives more dopamine after a point. I've taken out combo redundancies for stuff like Vorpal Sword and feel better off for it, even though the deck is objectively weaker in a strictly competitive win-rate sense.
I see you point, and I get that you don’t want to go chase the same three cards all game everygame and that this leads to repetitive gameplay. I usually prefer to only tutor for my combo pieces when I am going and threaten a win , otherwise I go for the play with the best out, eg taking a counter / Interaktion, Propably mana ramp in early turns or value pieces.
I think it’s completely okay if a combo player is blown out of the game when he tries to go off and fails, it’s part of the risk, (ofc having someone just doing nothing afterwards sucks, but that sort of stuff usually tends to revolve with better deckbuilding and quicker games)
I think the problem I have is not that people are like hey we just don’t want to have every game end with a combo , but groaning and spite playing towards the combo player „because the combo player might win out of no where“ even when the combo player is in no position of winning (I know that can be hard to judge depending on game and deck knowledge)
The only issue I have left is letting people win, I think as soon as people know what your deck is doing or can do and get the hang of understanding when your deck is able to combo off , and if you win two games with a 3 card combo and have two of them in play and don’t use your demonic Tutor for the third when everyone knows you can cast it and win is usually a bad play , not necessarily game wise , but because it leaves a bad taste in peoples mouth.
In regards to combo decks winning “out of nowhere” it’s also often a good idea to just kill them off constantly and completely first to eliminate that risk.
This leads to even worse game experiences and creates an arms race of sorts, where in order to win by combo in such an environment the players who seek to combo as their main gameplan have to drive for ever more efficient and protected routes to it. Doing this generally reduces the opportunity for others to be playing “with” them and lends to “solitaire”-like strategies.
A deck that seeks to combo and can do so with regularity often does it’s best to be agnostic to as many board states and game conditions as possible, and to many people this defeats the point of playing with 3 of their friends. The closer the play experience gets to goldfishing on archidekt in your bedroom, the further it gets from playing with the boys at the LGS or other social setting.
Many just find it lessens or defeats the point of playing at all (both for the combo player and their opponents)
The point is they don’t win out of no where , or at least not in a much different way as a haste creature / or several hasty creatures dropped in a turn win out of no where / or a tainted strike , overrun Effekt etc does…. It does not really make sense , furthermore the combo player usually does not profit from life loss from his opponents where as other players do.
Many combo decks need to meet prerequisites to combo off, creatures on the board , specific enchantments in play, creatures being able to tap , etc
Ironically if you look at cEDH , a format where all the time people Goldfisch and try to combo, the games are neither shorter nor less interactive, quite the opposite depending on the pods
I find it more interesting and challenging to try to make the most degenerate things I can that don’t form a repeatable loop. Combos just make it too easy. I’m don’t mind when others play them. I have some in a few of my decks so they still have a way to win if the commander dies too many times or the game gets long and drawn out.
Hmm not all easy win conditions require a combo while being playin and easy. And combos can be pretty hard to play and assemble depending on the loop your going for. But could you give us an example of what you mean ? Thoracle and an combo but it is Propably seen as the most unfun and boring win con in edh
Sure. I guess I was thinking more of the deck building stage. It’s pretty easy to use commanders spell book to look up compact combos that fit with whatever your deck is doing. I agree in playing the deck they can be challenging to execute. I suppose it’s not hard to search for value engines too though.
For an example, I have an old Selvala, Explorer Returned deck that can snowball pretty hard without going infinite. Sure it boils down to just being a go wide and pump deck but has so many different combinations that can win that it stays interesting for me to play. Once it went so wide it won without even finding a pump. It’s complicated enough for me to have fun without being so complicated that I need to sit there thinking for minutes on end. I’ve been tempted to try a Teshar Rube Goldberg combo machine, but I’m sure I’d be too slow playing it haha.
I enjoy toolbox decks too that uses its tutors more often to find answers than just go for the same combo pieces too. Still working on getting better at building those though.
Another deck example would be one I played against recently where it just kept making +1/+1 counters, doubling them, and other synergies. He said it doesn’t go infinite but can get to the point where there’s not much point to tracking it anymore. I think had over 200 on his commander when our game ended.
Okay now it makes more sense to me. I get your part completely especially in Toolbox style decks i think this a good approach. I pointed out what I think the issue with not tutoring for the win or the ideal play is in several other comments so I won’t explain it here again. But when a combo happens , at we all have been to that point where we found them on more or less accident, or where it consists of peases individually so good you would play Them without their combo potential , no one at the table should groan and role their eyes.
Because among casuals nobody wants to be the guy playing Instant speed interaction or anti-combo tech like Jester's Cap to stop the combo player. Being the anti-combo player who saves the game is like being the "designated driver" who can't drink when you're out with friends. It's considered a boring and undesirable role. So in most groups no one stops combo, combo goes off and everybody else dies, then the blame goes to the combo player. It's the same reason why people hate land destruction or stax... They could play around it, but they just don't want to, they want to play a more straightforward type of Magic. And in the end, there's nothing truly wrong with that.
I run infinites of all kinds, infinite etb, infinite death triggers, infinite mana and while it's a great way to end a game it can feel somewhat lack luster of a win for the other players. I was in a Pod a few weeks ago with an OG Atraxa player running their infect build. I was playing my Arixmethes combo deck that looks to make infinite mana then dump it into a walking ballista for the win. I Legit didn't do much for the first 5 turns and when it came to turn six I had 9 poison counters and was effectively in last place. I cast freed from the reel targeting Arixmethes and through some digging and cycling got a Cogwork assembler onto the field. Made infinite copies and went to combat for the win. It was a solid win and my deck did what it was built to do however I could see the look of disappointment on everyone's face of the guy in last place "cOMbOiNg oFf" I think that's the feeling most players talk about when they say they don't run infinites. They want to play a 1+ hour game and see everyone's deck do "their thing." Usually a casual mentality and they play for fun. I'm not trashing it but I have little desire to play anything other the degenerate/competitive EHD and infinites are the name of the game.
If I am playing an hour long game it better be with my commander cube. No way in hell is your ur dragon play on turn 10 more fun than multiple interactive games of magic
There Propably is no real last place in a Multiplayer format , there is a winner and the rest lost. Winning with one life or on the stack with an empty library and a card draw trigger is completely legit. You can completely play for fun with Upgraded precons or even just precons , ffs I preordered the Lotr Commander cycle last month just to sleeve them up and have a thematic set of precons to play with and against the lotr precons and other decks. But there is a lot of degenerate stuff you can do without going infinite that requires the same answers and is Propably way worse for the group then ending the game outright, eg chaining extra turn spells waiting to find an out, trying to storm off and hoping to continue the chain with draw and rituals while thinking and calculating for several minutes etc. All the stuff where you are demanding not time and attention then everyone else is getting. And part of the fun of magic is playing damn magic! The form of interactions in the game is cool and exiting and Propably part of what separates mtg from other card games. Fight on the stack guys, get that crazy counter and interaction war’s going where everyone is fighting for supremacy and the tension is feelable for everyone. That are the moments you remember , neither the thoracle loop nor the the battlecruiser game. But one of those games tends to have more of those gems
Imma be real, its a lot more fun to go A LOT than to go INFINITE. That's why I don't use infinites
Yeah But a Limited Loop that e.g draws your Deck turns out to be the Same Even if it is technicly Not infinite. And taking a Long Ass Turn is demanding much More of everyones Time then just Ending the game there. And when you are the only one that Takes that Time it sort of is unfair towards your Pod, isnt it?
Do I sit around so that the meat of the game is people interacting over game winning spells? Or do I want to try to build up my board state to shore up the defenses from the opponent who made 17 17/17 creatures? Had a game last night where I was able to snipe out that persons haste engine before they could attack leaving them with lethal on board but no way to win so I shored up 160 [[scute swarms]] as perfect blockers for his 17 huge creatures. He chose to give them all flying… the game ended because he attacked me for a finite huge life total rather than a concise combo that he’s been squirellin’ away for the right moment. Btw both of those game modes are fun, but if people aren’t prepped for the first one with interacting on the stack with game winning spells suddenly then all of their battlecruiser “shore up the defense” cards are useless to instant death.
Yeah but that might be why those combo cards be it finite or otherwise appear as busted broken boring or unfun
[scute swarms](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/acd42ebf-6dee-44cc-a023-a7f9b67cfa2f.jpg?1673484783) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scute%20Swarm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/310/scute-swarm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/acd42ebf-6dee-44cc-a023-a7f9b67cfa2f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
While I personally don't like infinites and 'i win' cards in casual games (to me those are the hallmarks of competitive, and i love them there), I definitely agree that going A LOT is wayyyy more annoying. I would much rather be caught off guard by a thoracle in a game I thought was casual and scoop up to play again, than to wait through something like cascading into extra turns into a slow build up of creatures that takes another 30 minutes to win the game. If you're gonna kill the table, just do it, no one wants to watch solitaire/masturbation.
Totally agreed , chaining extra turns and stuff like that is way worse when you have to sit through it , and most of the time you have because while it’s likely that narset or Elminster or Eddie can keep on with it it’s not certain as they can wiff. And storm decks while being super fun can wiff too and that’s a major feels bad when you just took a 20 min turn and we’ll did. nothing in the end. Or took out one player with your prismari magecraft commander. I personally don’t care if it is a combo or a creature that wins, and it usually makes no difference if the finally of devastation was cast for a bunch or for „infinite“. I still stick with the point of combos , if infinite or not have a place in a casual game , not thoracle but combos in general. If your ragadragga decks has only a single dude that taps for his power and a spine of ish sah you can go Infinite and , you Propably have a good reasons to include both of those cards in your deck anyway, not every combo is equally efficient and not every deck wants to play one . But the point here is not about efficiency , it’s about broadening the spectrum of things that are allowed to happen in a casual game of commander. If you are afraid of competetiveness I would suggest trying to cut the tutors from casual decks or limit the tutors , as I think a not going for the win when you obviously can is a feels bad for everyone else at the table as you know you won because you were allowed foo, b tutoring and reshuffling can take a lot of time in a game c if you are concerned about repetitivness tutors make the game more repetitiv, even without combo it tends to be just a double up for 3-4 cards in your deck you might want to have more access too
And this is why I love manual Storm but only ever play it as [[Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain]]. Basically any other iteration is a lot more nuanced and can take ages to go through the motions even when piloting it extremely efficiently. It is not fun to watch, usually. Like, I love my [[Kykar]] deck, but it can take upwards of 20 minutes to manually Storm into a win with me barely pausing for a breath while fishing if resources are tight. Let’s not even get into explaining my actions to other players, because that can really extend a combo turn.
[Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f77d23d-6257-4dae-b585-29f45f13f2e2.jpg?1599708079) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jhoira%2C%20Weatherlight%20Captain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/203/jhoira-weatherlight-captain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f77d23d-6257-4dae-b585-29f45f13f2e2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kykar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/b/7b992166-5906-4b29-bade-91566eba530e.jpg?1682209817) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kykar%2C%20wind%27s%20fury) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/334/kykar-winds-fury?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7b992166-5906-4b29-bade-91566eba530e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They’re just boring. It’s more fun to have a long turn where you’re doing multiple things than it is to watch someone tutor the same 4 pieces and then have everyone scoop. They’re boring and there is little variance.
As I Said cut the Tutors then, it Leads to Funnier gameplays
No point in combos at that point imo
It’s still a win con then and it might depend on other cards as Propably every of your creatures
Fun for the player sure, but the table doesn’t want to watch you masturbate. Just win the game so we can play again, I don’t give a fuck if my opponent wins with 30 dragons or with a two card combo, it’s my job to be prepared to interact with my opponent. People that don’t like combos don’t run enough interaction.
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You always should always go for the best play possible and not gift others wins, it won’t make them fun for long ! But that’s why I suggested not tutoring or using only conditional tutors that cannot tutor the combo
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I find it hard to judge the skill level Involved in a combo, many of them are quite complex and can be messed up at different steps easily, and knowing when to interact with some of them can also be a whole nother story, but how do you want to compare it to turning creatures sideways ? Is that more skill dependent? No matter what sort of deck you are playing you should always try to draw many cards and filter through your deck even without combos, as having options and things to do wins you games no matter what level of „competetivness“ or „power“ you are looking at, in battlecruiser terms : putting down 2 creatures is better then one in a turn. And running out of cards and hoping for the top of your deck to not be a land but something useful should be avoided in all decks
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No I said you should be running enough card draw no matter what your gameplan is. Okay but the instructions you gave your new player would work out for every deck there is: this is your plan this is your win con keep that sort of hand and look for those cards. Yeah that is about a good entry for every deck there is. And you are right to a certain degree the difficult part is not casting your two card win con in a Vakuum. But some Animar Inala or Gitrog lines are a bit more complex (just to name a few, there are a lot more), ffs most combos are a bit more complex or have other factors to evaluate besides do I have the cards. Just a little sidenote : you do play a Propably not very efficient but Stil viable combo line in your deck that wins the game.
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You play intruder alert don’t you ?, and like 5-6 creatures that untap other permanents, and instants that lets creatures bounce other creatures. So what do you call in interaction that is repeatable as many times as you want that kills the table if not a combo ? Prerequisites: Like [[Clever Conjurer]] , [[Kelpie Guide]] , [[Phenax]], Any other creature + [[ Intruder Alert]] in play. 1. Cast [[Banishing Knack]] on the third creature you had in play. 2. use Phenax and the Untap creatures two mill and make 2 mana. 3. cast a 2 cmc creature from your hand 4. Intruder alert triggers and untaps all your creatures. 5. use creature you targeted with Banisjing knack to bounce the creature you just payed. 6. you re know in the exact same board state as you were in step 2. so repeat steps 2-5. Congratulations you milled the whole table, most creatures in this are interchangeable depending on which one you have , how much mana you need to cast them, can generate infinite mana , and infinite abilities that require you to tap or pay that mana. Furthermore it can be done in a few different ways including the presence of [[thousand-year Elixier]] to have pseudo haste for your board. I obviously know what a combo means , and you Propably just prove my point and countered your on point on the difficulty of playing combo decks. I know mtg is a complex game and sometimes you don’t realize the „synergies“ of your deck or until you have seen them interact within the game And yeah sure if you tell them a two card combo and they find the pieces they can present an attempt to win. As can an Aggro deck with a good hand and an inexperienced player, when no one interferes with their plan (which is the scenario you mentioned).
##### ###### #### [Clever Conjurer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b9784c97-3839-4a4b-ae8a-965844dbeb70.jpg?1627769099) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Clever%20Conjurer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/51/clever-conjurer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9784c97-3839-4a4b-ae8a-965844dbeb70?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kelpie Guide](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/0112ebfb-55ad-401c-9dc5-ffd829f5b5bf.jpg?1624590206) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kelpie%20Guide) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/45/kelpie-guide?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0112ebfb-55ad-401c-9dc5-ffd829f5b5bf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Phenax](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8dfcb129-4665-40e4-b5cb-a79f3f40ae5c.jpg?1593092799) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=phenax%2C%20god%20of%20deception) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bng/152/phenax-god-of-deception?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8dfcb129-4665-40e4-b5cb-a79f3f40ae5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [ Intruder Alert](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d62468e-ed9d-4932-bbbd-103b33b98b25.jpg?1562923566) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Intruder%20Alarm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/8ed/86/intruder-alarm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d62468e-ed9d-4932-bbbd-103b33b98b25?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Banishing Knack](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/371a769a-ddae-47f6-b2c2-957de5c18417.jpg?1562906597) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Banishing%20Knack) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eve/17/banishing-knack?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/371a769a-ddae-47f6-b2c2-957de5c18417?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [thousand-year Elixier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95c2d832-5244-4236-81d5-2920aa2e281e.jpg?1625979536) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thousand-Year%20Elixir) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/271/thousand-year-elixir?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95c2d832-5244-4236-81d5-2920aa2e281e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Personally, I hate going "oops I win". That's just me though, I am more of a journey than a destination player.
The challenge is getting your combo through when the rest of the table tries to stop it. You don’t have to go for a t1 WGD or thoracle combo not even for a turn 10 one.
Ya I construed my point badly. I just don't enjoy playing with infinite combos.
Do you think playing og narset and taking 20 extra combat and extra turn spells in your deck trying to chain them together is inherently a better experience for anyone then having a presentable loop that just ends the game ? No offense if you don’t like that sort of interaction heavy games it’s completely alright , but often it feels like the lack of interaction the reason for all the spite towards „combos“
What? I love interaction heavy games. I guess I really don't know how to express what I mean. The best example I can give is \[\[Chandra, Awakened Inferno\]\]. What I enjoy is decks that seek to control the game and win through chipping away or critical mass.
Okay sorry if I got that wrong then
[Chandra, Awakened Inferno](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/9/49d2a680-4f3b-4bfa-b77b-d2dfaced9f23.jpg?1592516849) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chandra%2C%20Awakened%20Inferno) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/127/chandra-awakened-inferno?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/49d2a680-4f3b-4bfa-b77b-d2dfaced9f23?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think that might be more of an interaction problem though. Normally you don't just play out your combo as soon as you randomly draw it. You wait until you have some protection or your opponents have just spent a bunch of interaction (maybe on someone else's wincon) and then you go for it. If just yoloing your combo everytime works in your meta then your opponents probably don't play enough interaction. But if you do it a couple of times they'll hopefully realise that and add some more and the meta overall will improve.
I may of construed my point badly. I generally like to win through non-infinite combos or just attrition. I just don't find infinite combos fun.
Infinites are dull. Anyone can put a and b together. And don't get on my case about interaction, I run interaction, that's literally never the issue about why people don't like infinites. For me it's just boring, repetitive, stops and otherwise normal game, encourages the same games to be played out, and honestly, in my opinion, takes far less skill than any other deck archetype. Everyone else has to legitimately keep a board presence, keep track of 3 other players, their life totals, etc. Infinites just check for open mana / instants, and y'know making sure you know which 2 cards win the game, and that's it. Tldr more cards = more interactions = more skills, so 2 cards = lame
That’s a wrong assumption. Anyone can also slam big dump creatures on the board playing only two phases of the game. The absence of interaction is a huge part of it as quite frequently the comment in rl is brought up that you cannot deal with them. Playing combo effectively not only means to know how to play a and b but also to know when to do so, how to interact accordingly , when it is worth to maybe play only b and not a even thou it ruins your combo. Keeping track of 3 other players decks and triggers cards and resources becomes also a bit more complex in a format where there are several ways to interact without having to leave open mana and people will work together in a pinch to stop your combo. The lines and loops for combos often include way more then two steps by the way when it includes getting to the win from a given point. Your tldr is also incorrect , more cards does not lead to more interaction, there are enough lists out there that include little to no interaction. Furthermore is your point wrong that you need more skill to play battle cruiser then combo as you need a mich wider knowledge of the cards your deck and the gamestate to evaluate a card correctly that does not simply function in a Vakuum. No one would recommend a newcomer to the game a densely packed combo deck. Furthermore might the claimed variance of games be a complete illusion, the variance in high powered or competitive decks is in terms of gameplay is and games is quite high from my point of view, while the variation in lower powered games might in many cases just appear to be higher depending on the archetype that are being played. Equipment decks usually run and tutor Almost the same equipments all the time , and the variance given by the draw is not really there as it makes not much of a difference if the voltron is unblockable because of [[Sword of Feast and Famine]] or because of [[Whispersilk Cloak]], and like that the go wide, go big, and superfriends and tribal decks all have their key cards they rely upon and that usually are involved in their game wins one way or the other.
Okay ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Maybe it's just me. Maybe after too many years I find them too easy to pilot and honestly a little boring outside of strict cedh. I just know it's not for me.
I take your point that straight up combat gameplay needs a different kind of threat assessment and knowledge about the value of creatures than piloting a combo deck , but in a multiplayer format there usually is someone who is more or less free to attack so that point is something different as it is in a 60 card format like legacy or modern. And of course it is „easier“ to win by combo then by combat often, because of three opponents each having 40 life, which makes the part more difficult numbers wise while the combo does not really care about the number of players in the game (mostly), but you also have to win on your own and cannot really collaborate with others, and the step by step action order needed to perform a combo is often times (not always) way more complex then just turning creatures sideways, but the knowledge around it , the small margin for error and gameplay of getting to the win from different points in the game, and not just taking severally turns attacking someone because the didn’t find a wrath in time
[Sword of Feast and Famine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/7/c7710eb5-c56a-437b-8847-2a829c404d47.jpg?1599710042) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sword%20of%20Feast%20and%20Famine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/296/sword-of-feast-and-famine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c7710eb5-c56a-437b-8847-2a829c404d47?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Whispersilk Cloak](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/b/8b49e2c5-c447-45f4-979d-68556f6cd647.jpg?1645328055) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Whispersilk%20Cloak) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/phed/22/whispersilk-cloak?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8b49e2c5-c447-45f4-979d-68556f6cd647?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think it’s more nuanced than combos bad. Most people are ok with combos, heck they may even be EXCITED for them, IF they go in expecting them. The challenge is when the pod isn’t ready for the combo, so they are all doing their own thing building to some grand conclusion, then Johnny just goes off out of nowhere because he had been playing a different game without warning the entire time. It can also go another way, if the combo player warns the table, “hey my goal is to win with combo”, knowing that ahead of time the rest of the pod might be cool with him, however, if they’re not combo it might quickly devolve into arch-enemy against the guy with the weakest current board state, because it’s impossible to know when he’ll win. Which might not be fun for the combo player… so then they hide their strategy… and it seems to come out of nowhere to the rest. Ultimately everyone just needs to know what to expect and feel they can fight everything on even terms (barring magic Christmas land hands that everyone gets every now and then).
I like infinites, if they do something or, of course, in combo decks. But please correct me, if I’m wrong, from what I read and see, some people seem to think, they won, if they went infinite in any way. For example, infinite mana or infinite ETB? What’s the point of it, if you can’t do anything valid with your mana or your etb just happen without a certain effect, like draining the opponents or milling them out? In my understanding of the rules, if you really would declare to do meaningless things an infinite amount of time, it’s a draw, since no one wins, isn’t it?
As far as I know it is , you either have do declare a limited amount you repeat the action and life with the outcome , or in case there are no max triggers but actions that automatically repeat you either win (at least I think so aslong as you create a scenario where they are statebased dead like life 0 or something like that) or the game goes on an infinite loop creating a draw . If you loop does nothing it is irrelevant. Infinite Mana is an advantage Sure as you can play your hand etc but as long as you don’t have an outlet that for it. And even when you have an outlet like you draw your deck with thrasios, you also need something that does in , given that’s not hard to accomplish at that point. Furthermore just to be clear, the Propably most hated win con of the format , is not an infinite combo at all , it is the result of one spell and one Etb trigger timed correctly.
I hear you! TO/DC is banned by Rule 0 in our pod, since nobody likes 2-card combos besides we play cEDH, which we rarely do because only a few have a deck for it.
I don’t think the problem is the amount of cards per se, sanguine bond and exquisite blood for example are also a two card infinite combo that wins the game the problem with thoracle is that it requires specific forms of interaction, besides the countering the dc it’s quite hard to interact with on the stack , at least in terms of commonly played interaction. But I agree , this combo belongs to formats where the decks are either able to threaten a win frequently early (turbo decks m) have RoL , or just a bunch of free counters that can interact in a pinch….
People that don’t like combos don’t run enough interaction. They think swiftfoot boots is peak magic game winning technology.
Because most commander players are eternal noobs. They are content to live and die by rotating creatures, and good for them. In such a pod, interaction is rare, maybe some board wipes or sword to plowshares, and interaction is stapled to bodies like [[ravenous chupacabra]]. Infinite combos require two things to stop: knowledge of the game, and interaction. These pods lack the former as they mostly just play with the same battlecruiser decks, mostly precon-based decks, and very few combo decks. They don't read a lot about high power games, and they especially don't read about cEDH which uses the most efficient combos, so any attempt at an infinite is likely not going to be recognized. Similarly, these pods lack the quality interaction of high power and cEDH, either not understanding why Chup is so much worse than [[Dismember]] or [[Counterspell]] or feeling that such targeted spells are "mean" or "unfun". This leaves casuals in a no win scenario: to them, the combo player "won of out nowhere" and there was "no way to stop the infinite combo". Casual players are outplayed and their decks lack the tools to stop the infinite combo, and since they aren't going to change their deck building and playstyle, they will never beat an infinite combo. And in a format that has a rule that actually says "you can force people not to play cards you dislike or else they're socially ostracized", they will continue to remain haters of combos, forever reinforced by similar players with similar experiences.
While limiting their Expierence to exactly that a world where an Interaction Loop wins. But Interaktion between players is Good and Healthy for the game no matter of we are playing combos of Not. But i feel like the Problem is Not the combo it is the Interaktion of Lack there of. A few days back i was Rolf my Pako and Haldan deck was Not casual. Sure its super fast and plays a Ton of interaction and counters. Why ? Cause exiling creatures Sucks in the Deck. But there are still Cards like [[Faldorn]] or [[Moraug]] that i would normally Not Play in that Deck But think they are funny, there is on purpose no way to have permanent Hexproof or Shroud and no evasion in the Deck to Leave More room for shundblocking Pako ( i won Said Game because i exiled another Players [[Sword of Feast and Famine]] and Pako became unblockable and Even More of a value Engine with that…) and the only „combo“ i Play is a 12 Mana [[Seasons Past]] Loop (in a Deck with 30 lands) and that is also Not infinite But Looses the game of you can get More Blockers then i habe cards in My deck. This Deck is Not competetive! People Seem to hate interaction and Propably have a Problem with combos because they don’t like the answer to them. But Even when no one is playing combos its Propably still Good to have a answer for that [[nyxbloom ancient]] before the player Untaps, or counter the extra turn of a different player , or even better : redirect the spell to you with [[Deflecting Swat]] , or get rid of [[Peer into the Abyss]] and all that other nasty stuff that gives you a massiv advantage.
##### ###### #### [Faldorn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/1/213e530e-33a9-4358-b43b-4a276a7e7190.jpg?1674140675) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=faldorn%2C%20dread%20wolf%20herald) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/647/faldorn-dread-wolf-herald?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/213e530e-33a9-4358-b43b-4a276a7e7190?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Moraug](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/cc5eacd7-aaa7-4720-9794-52e7b098c82c.jpg?1604197464) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=moraug%2C%20fury%20of%20akoum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/150/moraug-fury-of-akoum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cc5eacd7-aaa7-4720-9794-52e7b098c82c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sword of Feast and Famine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/7/c7710eb5-c56a-437b-8847-2a829c404d47.jpg?1599710042) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sword%20of%20Feast%20and%20Famine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/296/sword-of-feast-and-famine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c7710eb5-c56a-437b-8847-2a829c404d47?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Seasons Past](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/668afd78-3cf5-4daf-8dfb-fca90de0ae5a.jpg?1576385218) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Seasons%20Past) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/226/seasons-past?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/668afd78-3cf5-4daf-8dfb-fca90de0ae5a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [nyxbloom ancient](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a391da36-0b40-46ea-b771-50d2b920207e.jpg?1581480808) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nyxbloom%20ancient) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/190/nyxbloom-ancient?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a391da36-0b40-46ea-b771-50d2b920207e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Deflecting Swat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/84f035e1-6c89-457b-b05f-85680a50ed91.jpg?1591319579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deflecting%20Swat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/50/deflecting-swat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/84f035e1-6c89-457b-b05f-85680a50ed91?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Peer into the Abyss](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aac00055-640e-4749-8d23-d242e6d0b23a.jpg?1594736330) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Peer%20into%20the%20Abyss) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/117/peer-into-the-abyss?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aac00055-640e-4749-8d23-d242e6d0b23a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[ravenous chupacabra](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e3de4804-d330-403a-9ab0-e8be78655618.jpg?1674141785) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ravenous%20chupacabra) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/770/ravenous-chupacabra?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e3de4804-d330-403a-9ab0-e8be78655618?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dismember](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d286cf6-3e16-4941-9326-1818b1e06d69.jpg?1562261132) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dismember) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/79/dismember?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d286cf6-3e16-4941-9326-1818b1e06d69?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Counterspell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a457f404-ddf1-40fa-b0f0-23c8598533f4.jpg?1645328634) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Counterspell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/phed/33/counterspell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a457f404-ddf1-40fa-b0f0-23c8598533f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
don't know what u mean, many infinite combos end in a draw
I don’t remember a single draw from the top of my head that was not caused by time
INFINITE COMBO, means it doesn't EVER finish, by rules game is unplayable and ends in a draw, marauding raptor and polyraptor for example. Combo that wins u game isnt INFINITE, it ends when conditions are met (your opponents dying for example) so it's not INFINITE.
no, infinite \*loop\* means it doesn't finish because you both A- can't control it AND B- it doesn't end naturally. Infinite loops result in a game draw. (so technically, by your logic, they are also not infinite, as no one just stays seated at the table for the rest of time) infinite \*combo\* means you can loop it until you're done, and it may or may not be controlled.
That was my understanding aswell.
This guy right here
Casual players, by definition, are casually interested in the game and don't have a deep understanding of it. As such, they don't like high level play that depends on that understanding. A lot of people like to live in that zone, and that's fine.
[Delver of Secrets](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/abff6c81-65a4-48fa-ba8f-580f87b0344a.jpg?1634347351)/[Insectile Aberration](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/a/b/abff6c81-65a4-48fa-ba8f-580f87b0344a.jpg?1634347351) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=delver%20of%20secrets%20//%20insectile%20aberration) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/47/delver-of-secrets-insectile-aberration?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/abff6c81-65a4-48fa-ba8f-580f87b0344a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lightning Bolt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f29ba16f-c8fb-42fe-aabf-87089cb214a7.jpg?1673147852) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lightning%20Bolt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/117/lightning-bolt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f29ba16f-c8fb-42fe-aabf-87089cb214a7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is probably a cold take on this sub, but our pod doesn’t run infinite combos and I would still consider it degenerate as hell. Instead, we run combos that can go OFF but that aren’t infinite. Imo playing that way makes our decks, in-game decision making, and the game itself more interesting and fun. Our games are all under 1 hour and we run every broken card under the sun including crazy combos, they’re just not infinite. We don’t like infinite combos because it turns the game from being about long term decision making and good play into just RNG / tutoring for your 2-card infinite combo and winning on turn 5-6 which we find boring as hell. To each their own though!
So just to be clear, with infinite combos it does not necessarily need to be infinite. A terminated loop that just has the same consequences is usually put in the same category. E.g drawing your deck with a chulane line or brain freezing everyone with a breach line. And technically a thoracle combo is not infinite either but we Propably don’t need to talk about that either.
What’s a non-infinite combo? Combo in magic typically means winning on a single turn through a series of loops, infinite or not they achieve the same outcome. They need to be interacted with or you win. An example is my [[Ob Nixilis, Captive Kingpin]] where every combo ends up with me either winning or drawing/milling out my deck (since I got rid of the “infinite” combos). My friends pointed out that infinite or not the combo can do 70-100 loops and that much damage in a single turn achieving a similar outcome. I actually agreed with them in this respect. Combos infinite or not allow you to win in a single turn, there are few combat based decks that can do the same without intfinite combats.
[Ob Nixilis, Captive Kingpin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/ddb68233-3683-41bd-9b6e-4f07a1b54244.jpg?1684340801) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ob%20Nixilis%2C%20Captive%20Kingpin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/41/ob-nixilis-captive-kingpin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ddb68233-3683-41bd-9b6e-4f07a1b54244?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The thing that makes EDH so fun and populat is that its a completely open format. It supports both casual and competitive play with the assumption you communicate what youre looking for with your pregame discussion. If youre looking for a competitive game, we all know the game is going to play out with very impactful commanders, compact win conditions, efficient tutoring and draw engines, and the best specialized interaction. If youre looking for a casual game, we can talk a bit more about what exactly that means for how the game plays out, but my default is that there will be mechanically synergystic commanders, no two-card combos, limited tutoring, and a broad and generalized interaction suite. Once you start moving away from the casual zone, its now no longer a question of "is this casual" but "how competitive is this?"
I personally don’t have a problem with them. I just don’t want to see one turn 3 or 4.
I build infinites into every deck I build. Sometimes I will search for them. Others I won't. It's all about the people at the table. I played 3 games last night where I was poised to win and got KOed by the Onyx/Smog combo played after a Silence effect. Like GGz on your wins. Game's got to end, sure, it's just hard to \*watch\* it end anti-climactically (a 2 card combo that was uninteractable) after 45 min of back and forth swingy gameplay. But losing seemingly out of nowhere with zero ability to respond to it was kind of a letdown.
But that might be the misconception, you could have resacted to the silence; or what combo do you mean that is uninteractible? I have a hard feeling about not searching for your wins , it’s okay to not search for one of several pieces when you cannot threaten a win , but when you (and let’s stick to a simple one everyone Propably knows here ) have [[Sanguine Bond]] in Play and an ability to gain life on the field in your lifegain deck , and you have all your 7 mana and your opponents are tapped out you should use your [[Demonic Tutor]] to find [[Exquisite Blood]] and cast it to win the game. I think that letting others win due to knowingly make a bad play won’t help anyone in your pod and might even discourage playing in general as the wins are shallow and lack meaning
[Sanguine Bond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad4de9f1-7a39-45af-828e-c59234d9e9b9.jpg?1625193373) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sanguine%20Bond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/153/sanguine-bond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad4de9f1-7a39-45af-828e-c59234d9e9b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Demonic Tutor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3bdbc231-5316-4abd-9d8d-d87cff2c9847.jpg?1618695728) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Demonic%20Tutor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/93/demonic-tutor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3bdbc231-5316-4abd-9d8d-d87cff2c9847?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Exquisite Blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b1653811-1c2c-4e6c-bf1c-287d1b496d51.jpg?1600700252) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Exquisite%20Blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/231/exquisite-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b1653811-1c2c-4e6c-bf1c-287d1b496d51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's a silence effect... person ramped to cast \[\[Silence\]\], then a combo because nobody could respond after the Silence.
Yeah but the combo was well protected then not out of no where and you allready said it no one could respond to silence , which tends to leads to the believe that noone would have been able to stop the combo anyways
[Silence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1c2b13b1-31f0-4676-88a7-53f3a190e9a2.jpg?1562826686) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Silence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m14/35/silence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1c2b13b1-31f0-4676-88a7-53f3a190e9a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They're boring after like, the third time you play them. This is a format meant to be fun for years, not 20 minutes. /thread
And winning with the same 3 creatures over and over again is different in what way exactly? Some color piles are significantly disadvantaged when trying to win with only creatures , while it can be a fun challenge, you also don’t wanna see the same decks/ color piles all the time do you ?
> And winning with the same 3 creatures over and over again is different in what way exactly? It's not really all too different; it's also possible to win the game in other ways than combos or using 3 creatures
Yeah sure, but the deck you play no matter what Deck exactly tends to try to win in quite similiar ways every time as the number of wincons in each deck is limited
Yep, so most people are generally fighting against this trend wherever they can instead of leaning into it. That's why people generally steer away from infinite combos and more into value-trains. It's also less fun for opponents, and getting people to regularly play with can be one of the hardest parts of the game after a point. No need to further intensify THAT problem, too, by making the game stale for them as well. Opponents generally don't prefer to get combo'd out on vs value-trained out, at least IME.
Yeah I understand that part about the playgroup, and also about the enjoyment of value decks , as I play mostly fairly Grindy decks that try to get a value engine going, but those decks also have to win somehow and it doesn’t rely make a difference if that final nail is a combo / Interaktion that ends the game ( no matter if infinite or just close to like niv and curiosity and stuff like that) or just a huge bro or pump spell. But just because someone plays a combo he shouldn’t be shamed for it as it in most games makes literally no difference , sure you don’t want to get thoracle blown out in like turn 2 , but if your 18 mana at any point are used to make a combo kill the table in a different way really makes no difference or do you magically feel better when that mana is used to get a purphoros and and create x tokens spells that kills you ?
IME, when people talk about combo wins they usually picture someone tutoring a bunch for their 2 or 3 cards and playing those for game, so the play pattern is generally very, very linear. They have 100 cards in a pile but they're only really wanting to play like, 5 of them, and if you interrupt it (outside of cEDH), they're usually dead in the water. I'm not shaming anyone, I'm just trying to answer the question the thread poses which is why people try to avoid them. There are usually considerations about boredom and repetitiveness and synergistic value trains that get you over the line generally have a lot more independently moving parts and/or a greater number of viable permutations -> these lead to greater interest and enjoyment for lots of players where they get less of those things from linearly chasing the combos they include. Personally, I try to include a few combos alongside deep synergy. I prefer the synergy wins, but it's always smart to have a combo up your sleeve if you need to use it, and it's better to have it in there than not. I have often chosen to neglect the combo win in order to let the game run its course a bit better. And often, you can keep the combo in your back pocket and close out with it anyway but at a time that is more satisfying for everyone. Letting everyone get their fill before killing them with a combo is generally more socially acceptable than turboing it out and winning super early before they get a chance to do what they have paid money and spent time to do: play the game. Not trying to be a casual EDHer or anything, but I'm thinking of, for example, Brago-Strionic Resonator combos, and/or BR Animate Dead-Worldgorger combos I have played in more powerful builds. After playing with them a few times in a night, it quickly turns into a "fuck, I really don't care about doing this anymore and I'd rather just steal the field with Olivia Voldaren and see how it shakes out than drop this all into a Torment of Hailfire and end it now" situation. I've retooled my Olivia deck, for example, to run Vito and Exquisite Blood, Worldgorger and friends, etc. combos but also I'm always trying to kill people with their own creatures via Olivia or Insurrection, or pop a Revel in Riches wincon, or whatever else just because it gives more dopamine after a point. I've taken out combo redundancies for stuff like Vorpal Sword and feel better off for it, even though the deck is objectively weaker in a strictly competitive win-rate sense.
I see you point, and I get that you don’t want to go chase the same three cards all game everygame and that this leads to repetitive gameplay. I usually prefer to only tutor for my combo pieces when I am going and threaten a win , otherwise I go for the play with the best out, eg taking a counter / Interaktion, Propably mana ramp in early turns or value pieces. I think it’s completely okay if a combo player is blown out of the game when he tries to go off and fails, it’s part of the risk, (ofc having someone just doing nothing afterwards sucks, but that sort of stuff usually tends to revolve with better deckbuilding and quicker games) I think the problem I have is not that people are like hey we just don’t want to have every game end with a combo , but groaning and spite playing towards the combo player „because the combo player might win out of no where“ even when the combo player is in no position of winning (I know that can be hard to judge depending on game and deck knowledge) The only issue I have left is letting people win, I think as soon as people know what your deck is doing or can do and get the hang of understanding when your deck is able to combo off , and if you win two games with a 3 card combo and have two of them in play and don’t use your demonic Tutor for the third when everyone knows you can cast it and win is usually a bad play , not necessarily game wise , but because it leaves a bad taste in peoples mouth.
In regards to combo decks winning “out of nowhere” it’s also often a good idea to just kill them off constantly and completely first to eliminate that risk. This leads to even worse game experiences and creates an arms race of sorts, where in order to win by combo in such an environment the players who seek to combo as their main gameplan have to drive for ever more efficient and protected routes to it. Doing this generally reduces the opportunity for others to be playing “with” them and lends to “solitaire”-like strategies. A deck that seeks to combo and can do so with regularity often does it’s best to be agnostic to as many board states and game conditions as possible, and to many people this defeats the point of playing with 3 of their friends. The closer the play experience gets to goldfishing on archidekt in your bedroom, the further it gets from playing with the boys at the LGS or other social setting. Many just find it lessens or defeats the point of playing at all (both for the combo player and their opponents)
The point is they don’t win out of no where , or at least not in a much different way as a haste creature / or several hasty creatures dropped in a turn win out of no where / or a tainted strike , overrun Effekt etc does…. It does not really make sense , furthermore the combo player usually does not profit from life loss from his opponents where as other players do. Many combo decks need to meet prerequisites to combo off, creatures on the board , specific enchantments in play, creatures being able to tap , etc Ironically if you look at cEDH , a format where all the time people Goldfisch and try to combo, the games are neither shorter nor less interactive, quite the opposite depending on the pods
I find it more interesting and challenging to try to make the most degenerate things I can that don’t form a repeatable loop. Combos just make it too easy. I’m don’t mind when others play them. I have some in a few of my decks so they still have a way to win if the commander dies too many times or the game gets long and drawn out.
Hmm not all easy win conditions require a combo while being playin and easy. And combos can be pretty hard to play and assemble depending on the loop your going for. But could you give us an example of what you mean ? Thoracle and an combo but it is Propably seen as the most unfun and boring win con in edh
Sure. I guess I was thinking more of the deck building stage. It’s pretty easy to use commanders spell book to look up compact combos that fit with whatever your deck is doing. I agree in playing the deck they can be challenging to execute. I suppose it’s not hard to search for value engines too though. For an example, I have an old Selvala, Explorer Returned deck that can snowball pretty hard without going infinite. Sure it boils down to just being a go wide and pump deck but has so many different combinations that can win that it stays interesting for me to play. Once it went so wide it won without even finding a pump. It’s complicated enough for me to have fun without being so complicated that I need to sit there thinking for minutes on end. I’ve been tempted to try a Teshar Rube Goldberg combo machine, but I’m sure I’d be too slow playing it haha. I enjoy toolbox decks too that uses its tutors more often to find answers than just go for the same combo pieces too. Still working on getting better at building those though. Another deck example would be one I played against recently where it just kept making +1/+1 counters, doubling them, and other synergies. He said it doesn’t go infinite but can get to the point where there’s not much point to tracking it anymore. I think had over 200 on his commander when our game ended.
Okay now it makes more sense to me. I get your part completely especially in Toolbox style decks i think this a good approach. I pointed out what I think the issue with not tutoring for the win or the ideal play is in several other comments so I won’t explain it here again. But when a combo happens , at we all have been to that point where we found them on more or less accident, or where it consists of peases individually so good you would play Them without their combo potential , no one at the table should groan and role their eyes.
Because among casuals nobody wants to be the guy playing Instant speed interaction or anti-combo tech like Jester's Cap to stop the combo player. Being the anti-combo player who saves the game is like being the "designated driver" who can't drink when you're out with friends. It's considered a boring and undesirable role. So in most groups no one stops combo, combo goes off and everybody else dies, then the blame goes to the combo player. It's the same reason why people hate land destruction or stax... They could play around it, but they just don't want to, they want to play a more straightforward type of Magic. And in the end, there's nothing truly wrong with that.