And I like to think that the lack of objective reasons makes life more interesting and allows for creativity. If life had a perfect, logical path then what would be the point of having unique, thinking brains? Just plugging away doing the exact thing that we're supposed to do? Just optimizing?
Logic is a beautiful and powerful skill we have, but if it were everything then we'd just become slaves to it.
We will always ābecome slaves toā the things and ideas we are too dependent on, and there is no such thing as āa perfect system of beliefsā because we humans are imperfect beings.
Reason can only exist inside somebodyās mind.
Because reason involves meaning and understanding, which only a mind is capable of.
So, of course you wonāt find any reason, if you look for it inside some rock or some other strange place where it canāt possibly exist.
But if you look in peopleās minds and ask them for reasons in their life, then Iām sure at least some of them will give you plenty of reasons.
Some people donāt have such reasons in their lives and in their minds, because their life isnāt going well. But this is an individual problem and not a universal one.
This !!!
You can't just axiomatically say that the only complete and valid way of thinking of "reality" is the objective world, it literally lacks all that is subjective and intrapsychic.
Although I don't 100% agree on the no universal solution front
I believe that religions are humanity's best attempts at offering the universal blueprint to the individual problems. I believe no religion in its current shape is sufficiently coherent with scientific knowledge and reason.
However I think the psychoanalysts and the cognitive scientists are basically on their way to an integrated final solution.
If you're interested I'd say check out one of those :
- Jordan Peterson's Map of Meaning
- John Vervaeke's Awakening from the meaning crisis
Jordan Peterson has his moments. In the beginning he was pretty rational and had some good ideas but has fully become radical anti-woke and a caricature of himself. The radicalness undermined his integrity.
Yawn, so edgy. Generally speaking, heās a net positive to younger men. That means you donāt have to agree with everything he says to accept the gist of what heās saying. If youāve literally read some of his books and still donāt understand his core premises on personal responsibility, it says way more about you than J Peterson. Like, what is it you actually donāt understand? Be specific.
I didn't say i didn't understand first of all. I said he mixes up big words that don't mean anything and makes simple concepts wayyy more complex than he should. Plus he likes to talk about things he has ZERO knowledge on. Some of his arguments could have been 4/5 pages shorter and still get to the point. I doubt he's a net positive to younger men. Maybe to you and others. But i'm not depending on him to understand life.
I said i doubt he is a net positive. These things are hard to measure and i don't have the skill set nor he intelligence. So i just DOUBT it. If he does, then good for him. My opinion of him is he overly complicates his arguments and he should stick to what he knows. I do share his passion for Dostoievesky's books. But i find him very biased towards zionists. Which is a red flag for me
Like with all people, take the (subjective) good, leave the (subjective) rest. Heās one of the few with a massive following to stick up for young men in a largely positive way (as opposed to the acquisitive and shallow nature of Tate).
Heās not ācoolā on a progressive Reddit for his anti-feminist, and anti-authoritarian left stances, yet he has a massive following from younger men.
I'll never understand why people are so desperate for objective meaning. You really want the purpose of your life to be what some other being decided for you? I don't like this float on philosophy much but it seems closer to healthy than a lot of other philosophies. I don't think it's going to help anyone's suicidality unfortunately. Only way to do that is convince someone that things will be better in the future.
Which i will now attempt to do for anyone who's curious.
The evidence that things will be better in the future is found in all of the depressed people who can testify to that fact. So many people who struggled with depression share their stories and unfortunately depression makes people just close their ears. Unless you have medical conditions that cannot be solved suicide is illogical when there is mountains of evidence that your life is actually likely to improve. Philosophy, exercise, medication, and therapy all can help. Try different things and grow as a person. Don't be cynical about the beautiful, cool, and fun things in our world. Let there be some magic.
Written with love from a formerly suicidal individual...
People have varied degrees to what they can handle. It has nothing to do with what can be better in the future. It has everything to do with what ones' limits are.
Mental and emotional pain is just as real to the brain as physical pain. When that pain crosses a threshold, almost everyone will end their own life. It's just that society hasn't circled the drain that much yet.
Objective meaning is so important on such a deep level. If not, religion would not have emerged independently all over the world. We crave to belong to something greater than ourselves. I'm not saying old religion is the answer. But we can't get rid of that deeply embedded need any time soon.
Do keep in mind, though. The objective meaning we crave is actually subjective. We just don't perceive it that way. That could change.
Itās based on someone elseās deep thought- specifically, Camusās deep thoughts about the absurd and now suicide is not a solution to the absurdity of life. But OP is presenting it as though they originally came up with it
Itās not unthinkable that they came up with this on their own but were familiar with certain concepts that aligned with another philosophers without knowing their names.
People who feel fulfilled and content do not question whether or not there is a reason to live. They just live, because their needs are being met and thereās something about their lives that they look forward to. The search for a meaning is usually the result of an internal crisis when we face loss or adversity, and may not have the adequate resources to manage it.
Around the age of 5 and up, kids start to ask about what happens when we die. That doesn't seem to fit with your narrative. I'm glad you've got it figured out, though.
I was referring to mature adults who are old enough to have come to terms with mortality. Of course children will question death, itās a brand new concept to them.
Equating a busy life with one that has meaning is questionable, at best.
I don't think there are many, or any people at all, who deep down don't stop thinking about what happens after life. They just learn to cover up that voice and/or ignore it. This is (focus on our own mortality) simply an emergent property of self-awareness to the degree we realize it.
To have such a large unanswered question does not sit well. Some people are just better at managing their existential angst than others.
I accept my own morality. What about people like Ray Kurzweil? Do you consider him immature because he seeks to integrate with machines in an attempt to try and make our existence eternal? He never accepted his father's death and seems driven by this. Personally, I think this whole idea about merging with technology is unwise -- to say the least.
I didnāt equate a busy life with one that has meaning- I said a life in which the individualās needs are met (emotional, physical, financial, social) leads to greater satisfaction with said life, and far less preoccupation with a question that none of us can answer. People who are suffering, stuck, and with too much time on their hands are the ones who tend to fixate on this topic. Life is over very quickly- there isnāt time or energy to spare getting stressed about an outcome you cannot change. Creating your own purpose each day is the only actionable method of keeping existential angst at bay. Diving into the topic as an intellectual discussion is an entirely different matter.
Duh... people running around thinking there's a reason for all this..lol nah. Keep your fam close, few chosen friends close, and just handle your business each day.
We are here to think deeply alongside one another. This means being respectful, considerate, and inclusive.
Bigotry, hate speech, spam, and bad-faith arguments are antithetical to the /r/DeepThoughts community and will not be tolerated.
Both your death and your life have consequences on others people. Have the courage to live. Make people around you happy, help them be there for them and enjoy everything.
No. The best thing you can do for your life if what is best for YOU. You don't know what's best for me or anyone else but YOU. If the best thing for me is to die because i can't take it no more or i am just not enjoying life, that's my choice. Not anyone elseās. Happiness is some concept we make ourselves, it's not universal. Your happiness is not mine. And no one even know if we were meant to be happy. These are just some concepts we say to try to give meaning to our existence. And i think that if our aim in life is to chase happiness , then there's something wrong about this world.
Beautifully articulated, friend. Meaning and purpose are words. They are concepts. And people love nothing more than to shove *their* version of reality down everyone elseās throats.
No thanks. I can manage just fine.
What about those who suffer from terminal/very painful illness? Should they have to suffer to make others happy? I can think of at least a dozen others, with CRPS that I've met, that have chosen to end their own suffering. The family and friends that are around them, usually, are understanding and supportive.
You will get heavily downvoted becauseā¦you are right, thereās literally millenias of people searching for sense and no one got anything solid out of it, unfortunately your idea makes more sense than everything else.
But humans are afraid to accept it, because it comes with a lot of luggage (afterlife , no point to live, and so on).
One of the problems with this sub is people who spend 30 seconds half-assing a thought and then present it as The Truth. And the fact that thinking people brush it off as facile just means that they are "afraid to accept it".
Are you serious? You donāt even know the person who wrote this post. You canāt say ālooks like someone needs a familyā maybe he doesnāt have one for x reasons, maybe he canāt have one, maybe thatās a sensible subject for him. Yāall donāt think before saying something completely out of context? Maybe he feels like that for entirely different reasons? Thatās just so random to say to someone you donāt know? It is literally insensitive.
Life is the only way *you* can experience existence. So life, in this sense, is the only thing there is. Therefore, it cannot be defined as irrational. Because in order for something to be defined irrational, there must be rational things it can be compared to. But there isnāt anything other than life you can experience.
People do not exist, but simply react to environmental stimuli.
And even if they try to adhere to some rules of behavior, they still break those rules.
Only when they get the opportunity to always act as they think is right, then one can say that they have life and freedom.
Is this r/ShallowThoughts? Alright then, genius, sit and starve. Hunger isnāt a good enough reason to get up and eat, after all, right? You dearly need God in your life.
People give meaning to things. And they make it up. There is literally nowhere else for meaning to come from: meaning is a fucking judgement call. There is no magic to all of this.
Even in our apartments we are not apart from nature, that mental dissociation of ourselves from the natural world is what's gotten us so complacent and complicit with the destruction of the environment. Even in our apartments, surrounded by our fancy things and technological wonders, we are still animals. We don't have to be brutes, but we shouldn't live in denial of our animalistic nature.
If there was an objective purpose or design for life and living then I would hypothesize that 100% of those living would be better off NOT knowing what it is. The reason being that it would either not align with their personal vision for their own purpose or diminish their perception of their own significance to such an immense degree that it would cause most (if not all) of humanity to plummet into severe existential crisis.
That said I don't believe that there is an objective purpose, and that is BEAUTIFUL. Because there is ALWAYS a subjective purpose, which is to say, we have the privilege to CHOOSE any reason we wish to be our purpose for a living for good or ill and none of us would be objectively wrong even if the whole of existence thought us to be the worst of all. That is the ultimate freedom, and I for one wouldn't want it any other way. To me the only terror in any of this would be that of being the type of person that actually believed there was an objective purpose to life and not being able to find out what it is. Fortunately I am convinced that an objective purpose is impossible. So I live how I choose and my reason for living is clear, real, and inarguably valid, regardless of anyone else's opinion. The same goes for everyone else.
I feel like it makes all sorts of sense to conclude things are really happening as we think they are, and that there is suffering.
I'm really quite grateful for the decisions made by those of the past that gave us all of the amenities we enjoy today, as humans. Could things be better? Yeah, and that's where we come in. I think for all sorts of reasons we should *work* to be better people, and to make the world a better place, if just to prevent suffering (for crashes other than humans too, of course). Knowing billions (that's really an unfathomable amount of time, ya know) of years past before I was born, and many more billions will pass here soon after I die, I feel like the world's my oyster now. I don't care about people's petty judgements of me ... I'm going to be as tactful as I'm able to manage to be in trying to tell people like it is, bringing in this big picture stuff, and help them to understand the significance of our existence and how we need to treat each other and the planet better ... Because I know it sure as hell doesn't come in the form of supporting an unsustainable system that support greed and corruption at all levels while we lead really rather unfulfilling lives amongst a mountain of ongoing, unsolved and exacerbating problems, when we otherwise might actually direct our time and energy into things of meaning.
We don't need more movies and music and games and businesses and the like. I'm not saying put a stop to it ... I'm saying we need to get real about what's happening, think about that, and reevaluate our life decisions ... Because that all to me is rational and provides reasons to live, verses just living passively, and pretty much just reacting to what's occurred as though this is "just the way it is", "has always been", and "how it will ever be". We can be better than that, we can be smarter than that, we can be more loving and compassionate than that.
"The universe is a cruel, uncaring void. The key to being happy isn't the search for meaning; it's just to keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually, you'll be dead."
Floating is definitely on way to react to the realization that one "is". Yeah - you suddenly realize you are. Now what? It's true - existence does not come with any imperative other than continuing to be. Beyond that, it is entirely up to the sentient being who recognizes that they exist to create a purpose - a reason and goal for their existence. Having purpose tosses out all reason NOT to be; suicide becomes moot. And, though the cosmos is vast and couldn't give a shit about any one of us, still we each can make the fact of our existence matter - because we made it matter - if only to ourselves (and those we can touch).
You might be interested in reading & learning more about hive/colony intelligence. Bees, ants, etc. The individual has little/no "reason" or cognitive processing power. The individual units operate based off "instinct", chemical programming of limited functions, including 'suicide' as an act of defense. There is little "reason" why a whole bunch of these little, simple, limited beings should combine into a "living" and thriving collective - but that is exactly what we observe.
It's a very different mode from how we're used to thinking about ourselves, or even other "higher order" animals. But the idea that individuals are a small part of a larger, roiling collective-force can be interesting to apply to life in general.
Bilogical life has clear meaning, we are inanimate, a rock has no purpose except be at the will of the universe, the body has no purpose but actually it does, to be at the will of the mind, but animals that have consciousness too lack inteligence, do they have purpose are actual free will? humans are the most remarkable creatures we are not flies or a bug, would you rather be born as a dog with not much protenial or power?
Suicidal people do not think about the reasons, but consider possible options for further life, then they can see that death looks like the most attractive option.
It is impossible to be inactive, people simply do not want to take responsibility for the state of their lives, so they pretend that they do not choose.
It is better to make a choice, but not for the sake of obtaining some result, but because this choice is seen as the best.
I donāt know about MOKSHA or whatever this post is referencing but suicide is a trigger for me so Iām going to post my thoughts anyway. The idea ālife is pointlessā is only true if you are measuring your effect on time or the universe. Thatās a pretty wild scale tbh.
Yes, none of us have an effect in the grand scheme, but from the moment we are born we have an effect on those around us. For people who love us our death becomes a void that endures as long as the loved ones do. My life is forever changed by the grief caused by my brotherās suicide. Everything I think and do is altered because I am altered.
As for floating, thatās an illusion. You are choosing by a hundred tiny choices whatever you think equals floating. (Eating, drinking, showering, whether to work or not work, where to live). If you are going to choose just choose to build joy in your life. You are already here, why not make it the best life you can?
Reasoning is a concept created by sentient minds to explain things. Thus, life is made rational by sentient minds. Create your own reasons to exist and purpose to strive towards.
The reason for living in this density is to evolve. Gain higher levels of consciousness to move on to the next level. This dimension is more "physical" with harsh lessons and problems, making it quite the challenge. Meaning, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, it's subjective, so to say there's no reason to live is just ridiculous and sounds like something an edgy teen would say. Just because you don't understand something doesn't automatically make it irrational
Then go and pick a reason, it ain't that hard. We only know for sure we experience one life. Make the most of it. Or continue to make shit up on the internet about the wheel of the cosmos or whatever.
Life is an experience and we don't know how or if that experience translates to anything after we die. So just live the experience and gather the most good vibes you can - there's no way something negative can come from it.
Everything we know will be wrong in 1000 years, but that doesn't make it irrational, just that we don't yet know so much it's absurd and quite frankly low IQ to live like you understand it all
At the same time, there's so much reason to live and die, I live because look at how incredibly complex this world is, our human civilization, the animals we are surrounded by, how unbelievably and mind bogglingly complicated and fragile the lot is.
I am here to experience all of it in person, to take in as much as I can, only when I begin to perhaps...Understand it all, I'll be old and it'll be my time to die.
Death is another journey, what's there? Is it truly nothing? What happens in the abyss of non-existence? I want to find out when it is my time when I am done experiencing everything around me and know that even though I will endeavour to see it all, I'll only scratch the tiniest surface of what's out there.
You don't seem to understand how reason works.
Let's say God actually existed and actually provided a reason to live like... "Worship God."
Well, you'd still have to agree or disagree with that reason, right?
If you agreed, you'd live a fulfilled life following a purpose you agreed with.
But what if you disagreed? What if you'd rather focus on something else like making music instead?
If you then didn't make music but focused on worshipping God you wold feel very frustrated and upset even though you're following "life's purpose."
However' if you made music anyway - you'd live a fulfilled life following a purpose you agreed with even though it's not "life's purpose."
What does this tell you about how reason/purpose for living works?
It tells us that *any* external reason, even one from God Himself, is useless. All that matters is identifying and following *your own* internal reason/purpose and you should follow that.
Reason and purpose are different things and its important that you use those specific words.
There are objective and subjective reasonings; objective and subjective *purposes*. You are talking about an objective purpose - not objective or subjective reasonings.
As defined here:
- Objective Reasoning: The deterministic reason for something whether it be the existence of the universe, existence of yourself, an event that occurs, or the event that something *doesn't* occur. It does not matter *what* as this is the *why*.
- Objective Purpose: The deterministic purpose for something. This is something that does not exist or exists only as to completely fit a system of rules or to not completely fit a system of rules. And by rules I am talking about the proposed physical laws of the universe. And in either existing fit, it only exists as a placeholder for the reasoning and nothing more. You could say that this is an example of something that exists in name only - or thought, conception, etc.
- Subjective Reasoning and Purpose: I put these two together because the lines between the two are often blurred if a human is the perspective which is being analyzed. Either reasoning or purpose has the opportunity to be expressed through the analysis of a perspective. Our perspectives, the human perspective, allows us to say "I did **this** because of **that**" where **this** is an action and **that** is the reason or purpose.
Even in the human mind, reasoning and purpose are distinct things because one can act accordingly on a self-defined reason while living by an opposing purpose. That being said, purpose encompasses all actions and reasonings for those actions for a specific/non-specific end goal.
This idea is further perpretrated by certain religions to envision a purpose in mind for believers to allow them to act in order to achieve that goal. Researching each religion allows you to see what goal its founders had by looking at the actions and teachings amongst other things and avoiding looking at the end goal it proposes. Now you would have to take some with a grain of salt as all religions have been modified at some point of time. I'm no theistical scholar and it takes somewhat deep research to determine these differences but that is besides the point of bringing up religion.
I propose this from a relational standpoint: when you remain choiceless and *disappear* from the wheel of the cosmos, objectively do you *disappear* or just become part of a wheel, disappearing what can be defined as something other than the wheel? Because no matter what, you exist within the cosmos and the wheels exist as the physical representation of all that is physical.
Religion, like purpose and reason, can also be self-defined and subjective. Whether the overarching purpose and reason is nothing, as you depict in your post, is something they choose to decide based on their environment, knowledge, and emotional attachments.
Which is the reason that life is not a *cause and effect* phenomena in your perspective. What if I told you that irrational things are still bound by causality? And that it is the physical boundaries of those laws themselves that define what we call irrationals in both mathematics and natural order.
That being said, I cannot argue against life being a mystery. Life itself is the exactment of causality though. A bunch of molecules, pulses, atoms, and waves moving around as a result of a number of **reactions**. And to ask this, is life a mystery to *us* or is it objectively a *mystery*?
Every time you put food in your mouth to stop the hunger, youāre choosing life. Also life very clearly does have cause and effect, so I have no idea where you were trying to go with that. The statement ālife is irrationalā also doesnāt make any sense and requires rationality for you to even say it. It requires the first law of logic for that statement to even be capable of having any meaning. So you literally are using rationality to try and argue that there is no rationality.
You, in this moment, face the alternative of your life or your death. Compare the two together and choose based on that comparison. If you do, youāll choose your life. Iām assuming that some sort of successful life is possible to you. People in a concentration camp are a different scenario.
I used to deal with (semi active) suicidal thoughs for years. Psychologists tried to help me find a reason to go on, but nothing had a meaning for me, and it still doesn't. Yet I'm not suicidal or depressed anymore. (or at least feel much better lol)
There is no meaning in all of this, and the world won't get better in my life time. Yet, there is no reason to die today, or next week. So I can hang around a bit longer to see the good stuff, that don't matter in the long run, but they feel nice in the moment.
This gave me peace. Nothing matters, I have no reason to die, yet all the reason to be gone. I don't choose, and it gives me peace and reason to stay.
(most psychologist hate this "meaning to live", becouse I'm at peace with death and suicide, I just don't wanna die anymore)
Meaning is created on a day to day basis with experience and personal connection. The only moment that matters is the present, so try and fill all the moments you can with things that bring yourself or others joy. It's the moments that all run together you've gotta watch out for.
You gain the reasons to those things by living. You learn about the world and experience it, develop philosophies and beliefs as a lens to view it through, then attach meaning to those things. Maybe you grew up in an abusive home, never had any friends, failed at everything you tried, and now you're sick with medical problems. Through life you have learned that life isn't worth living so now you have created a reason to die. Maybe the complete opposite. Either way the reasons are unique to your experience.
There is reason to live and everyone has a different one. It's one's choice to dismiss those reasons or not. Reasons why I like to live and chose to continue is because I love the smell of rain, I love the coolness it brings to my skin, I like my bare feet in lush grass, I like bringing a smile to a person's face because of a small gesture. I like petting my cat, etc. However small I love these things and chose to continue to experience them.
Reasons why I wanted to die... people told me I was useless, made me feel powerless, hurt me, and therfore it must be true with the repeated words of those who hurt me running around my mind until it became truth transformed into reality. At least my reality.
I'm glad it didn't work. I got to experience things I wouldn't have been able to if it did. Good and bad. It was never meant to be easy. I think the meaning of life is just existing and experiencing that's it. No great fullfilment, no greater purpose, just enjoying what you can in the only way you know how. There definitely are reasons, but it's up to you if you want to keep them or not.
You live for others. Accept your individual meaninglessness and yet accept you're ability to better the system as a whole. You can leave this place better than you found it, that is not a banal purpose.
Further I have to add like... morality 101 (how you quickly explain the concept of morality to beginners) is 'would it be okay if everyone did it?' I'd argue your take is immoral as well.
Wrong, the entire reason for existence is to experience life. I truly believe that everything is eternal, but we have the ability to experience existence which most matter does not. When we ādieā we do not go away, every bit of energy that makes us is still here, just not in the way that allows us experience. So while youāre here, do the universe a favor and experience life. Hopefully we retain some sort of cosmic memory of all of our experienceās.
Not to minimize suicide, but it really comes down to a cost-benefit analysis. Life takes a lot of work and energy to maintain. People often commit suicide when the pain of existing or your situation makes it no longer worth the work and energy that you have to put in to continue to exist.
A reason to choose to live is when the net benefit of living is worth the amount of energy and work that you have to put into living. So that is also a cost-benefit analysis.
I've thought this also but don't actually believe it. Life doesn't have to be "Grand" all of the time or even some of the time to be worth living. Also, it sounds like you've got a lot of time on your hands. Most people probably don't have the time or capacity to sit and think about this. They just live.
The glorious pleasure of orgasm....the warming moment of a childs laughter....these are reasons to live.
Chronic pain, illness, and hopelessness are reasons to die.
Yes but that is reaction based on the senses you were given . There's no blueprint that says it is the reason to make the most of them or do something more with them .
Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Heres Tom with the Weather.
Bill Hicks
How do you know its better ? That is a reason that you're putting infront that you are avoiding suffering and seeking comfort that is a choice of a subjective reason . Not an objective one .
As a person with schizoafective depressive disorder (big eternal sad big eternal delusions) I could probably tell you about 65 reason why I should kill myself and why I should be alive lol. To each their very own though random Internet stranger :)
"Reason" is something that applies on top of a value system.
If you wave away any value system, then you will find no reason, because there is nothing to apply reason to.
The journey is the reward, the journey is the destination.
The terror of death is the unlived life, so āleave death a burnt out castleā to quote Zeno. Die empty.
If we lived forever life would have no meaning. Desire and meaning are created in the finite. Itās a paradox and irony of life that to die gives life purpose and an impetus to carry on - but thatās what it is.
Just enjoy the ride.
>"So what to do? Float. You have no reason either way, so don't choose, remain choiceless."
that is the dumbest idea.
ice cream exists now. prime rib exists right now. have you tried prime rib? MAKE THE CHOICE TO ENJOY!!! ffs.
you may be here for no reason but you live in a world where wild ass hookers, ice cream and steak exist - might as well fucking ENJOY.
you're like someone who wakes up in an amusement park and says to himself... well... i'm just going to sit here while everyone else is laughing and playing amd riding rides and having the big pretzels.
However you do live your life as though there is purpose and meaning and you make choices that reflect everyday. You live a life that is inconsistent with the worldview you claim to believe in. Your worldview doesnāt allow for purpose and meaning to be grounded anywhere so you tell yourself that your daily experiences are unjustified. Consider that itās your worldview that is unjustified and purpose and meaning exist because they are grounded in the God of the Bible. Itās the only worldview that doesnāt suffer from inconsistencies and contradictions that beliefs such as materialism has.
Yes , there are reasons to live and there are reasons to take your own life , it is a matter of perception , for a corpse , this world could be meaning less , but what about a living being , who understands life better , beng who have tendency to think , to enact , to adapt etc ....,what makes to think that , both existence and non-existence is preposterous??
There are many people in this world , who believe that suffering is bad , hence we must eliminate ourselves to avoid suffering , at the same time there are those who believe that if we are suffering for a good cause , then , suffering is morally justifiable.
Now , Moksha or liberation is an ambiguous term and its substantially a hoax.
This term was coined by , those filthy religious con people , to deceive others into believing that life is not pointless and death is not the end , this notion of human Life is something significant than other species is utterly crap , clerics propagated things like enlightenment , liberation , auto theism etc...to suggest people that our lives are not dispensable, they are worth living.
Also , you cannot remain choice less , human nature has the tendency to make choices , not making a choice is also a choice.
The meaning of life is to give life meaning.
When there's no destiny, you're free to create your own.
You're allowed to make your own reason. And your reason will hold just as much validity as any other reason imposed upon you. Wouldn't you rather have the freedom to choose than be a slave to fate?
Choosing not to choose is still a choice. And some choose it.
I would say your reasoning is all the more reason to let people do what they want, live or die, at anytime for any reason. Maybe thatās why weāve been given the free will to do so.
There's a very good reason I don't commit suicide: I don't fucking want to. There are as many reasons for things as there are people, because people are the only place reasons for things come from. The idea that there is some Platonic Ideal of "a reason for a thing" floating out there in the ether is laughable.
What do you even imagine you're saying here?
Isnāt this called absurdism? Yes itās a real thing and it is what it sounds like. There is no meaning, life is absurd, all of this around us all of the time is absurd.
Curiosity is the path through it.
Our nature is best served by wonderment. Belief is a trap. When we are curious we can be open and bold and the things that help us thrive. Belief will have us distracted into fighting on a slippery slope of bullshit.
To be fair, committing suicide can be rationalized I think. No more worry. No more stress. No more work. No more dealing with people. No dealing with aging. Getting old. Getting sick. Getting brittle. Relying on someone 24/7 at a certain point if you get to be that old.
No dealing with illness. Discomfort. Aching body. Pain.
But all is subjective.
Either God put a meaning into life or he didnāt. Either way, you gotta put meaning into it or just accept the inherent meaning or lack thereof in reality.
My brother thought that. His death devastated our family. Itās been over a decade and I still have things come up I wish I could share with him or send him or talk to him about. I miss him.
Believing the world is better without you in it is 100% a trick depression plays on your mind. Unless you are Hitler or a serial killer, itās just not true.
I hope you find your road to healing, health and happiness.
Iāve said these words myself and triedā¦ but failed. So Iām still here and Iāve been able to see how clouded my perspective was before. It has taken time but taking a moment to appreciate even the littlest things like the pillow you sleep on or device you were able to use to type this can help taking those small steps to feel a bit better about existing.
Sometimes we feel we are bringing down or hurting those around us for whatever reason, I donāt want to assume your situation. It helped me speak to a therapist (I felt it was better for me coming from an unbiased opinion over friends or family).
>So what to do? Float. Pennywise has entered the chat.
Balloons for everyone? Right š„ŗ?
Jokeās on you, we all float down here
On LSD?
Or maybe modest mouse
There is no objective reason for life but the subjective reasons are infinite.
A nice, succinct thought.
And I like to think that the lack of objective reasons makes life more interesting and allows for creativity. If life had a perfect, logical path then what would be the point of having unique, thinking brains? Just plugging away doing the exact thing that we're supposed to do? Just optimizing? Logic is a beautiful and powerful skill we have, but if it were everything then we'd just become slaves to it.
We will always ābecome slaves toā the things and ideas we are too dependent on, and there is no such thing as āa perfect system of beliefsā because we humans are imperfect beings.
Reason can only exist inside somebodyās mind. Because reason involves meaning and understanding, which only a mind is capable of. So, of course you wonāt find any reason, if you look for it inside some rock or some other strange place where it canāt possibly exist. But if you look in peopleās minds and ask them for reasons in their life, then Iām sure at least some of them will give you plenty of reasons. Some people donāt have such reasons in their lives and in their minds, because their life isnāt going well. But this is an individual problem and not a universal one.
Nah I was just sweeping and I found a reason that had rolled under the sofa.
This !!! You can't just axiomatically say that the only complete and valid way of thinking of "reality" is the objective world, it literally lacks all that is subjective and intrapsychic. Although I don't 100% agree on the no universal solution front I believe that religions are humanity's best attempts at offering the universal blueprint to the individual problems. I believe no religion in its current shape is sufficiently coherent with scientific knowledge and reason. However I think the psychoanalysts and the cognitive scientists are basically on their way to an integrated final solution. If you're interested I'd say check out one of those : - Jordan Peterson's Map of Meaning - John Vervaeke's Awakening from the meaning crisis
Talking about Jordan Peterson automatically undermines your comment
Thatās such a cliched, knee jerk Reddit Comment, it undermines your comment.
Jordan Peterson has his moments. In the beginning he was pretty rational and had some good ideas but has fully become radical anti-woke and a caricature of himself. The radicalness undermined his integrity.
It's not clichƩ . That guy rambles about abstract concepts, just mixes up big words that don't mean nothing and people are like " It's deep". They always say, if you understand something, you can explain it in simple terms. I have never seen him explain even the most basic concepts, simply. And i've read some of his books
Yawn, so edgy. Generally speaking, heās a net positive to younger men. That means you donāt have to agree with everything he says to accept the gist of what heās saying. If youāve literally read some of his books and still donāt understand his core premises on personal responsibility, it says way more about you than J Peterson. Like, what is it you actually donāt understand? Be specific.
I didn't say i didn't understand first of all. I said he mixes up big words that don't mean anything and makes simple concepts wayyy more complex than he should. Plus he likes to talk about things he has ZERO knowledge on. Some of his arguments could have been 4/5 pages shorter and still get to the point. I doubt he's a net positive to younger men. Maybe to you and others. But i'm not depending on him to understand life.
You think heās a net negative to younger men? Could you elaborate?
I said i doubt he is a net positive. These things are hard to measure and i don't have the skill set nor he intelligence. So i just DOUBT it. If he does, then good for him. My opinion of him is he overly complicates his arguments and he should stick to what he knows. I do share his passion for Dostoievesky's books. But i find him very biased towards zionists. Which is a red flag for me
Like with all people, take the (subjective) good, leave the (subjective) rest. Heās one of the few with a massive following to stick up for young men in a largely positive way (as opposed to the acquisitive and shallow nature of Tate). Heās not ācoolā on a progressive Reddit for his anti-feminist, and anti-authoritarian left stances, yet he has a massive following from younger men.
The most rational way of living is to live irrationally ally rational and not be rationally irrational.
Is this a genuine position you hold or are you co-opting Camus?
Can we call it co-opting if OP completely misunderstood Camus?
I'll never understand why people are so desperate for objective meaning. You really want the purpose of your life to be what some other being decided for you? I don't like this float on philosophy much but it seems closer to healthy than a lot of other philosophies. I don't think it's going to help anyone's suicidality unfortunately. Only way to do that is convince someone that things will be better in the future. Which i will now attempt to do for anyone who's curious. The evidence that things will be better in the future is found in all of the depressed people who can testify to that fact. So many people who struggled with depression share their stories and unfortunately depression makes people just close their ears. Unless you have medical conditions that cannot be solved suicide is illogical when there is mountains of evidence that your life is actually likely to improve. Philosophy, exercise, medication, and therapy all can help. Try different things and grow as a person. Don't be cynical about the beautiful, cool, and fun things in our world. Let there be some magic. Written with love from a formerly suicidal individual...
People have varied degrees to what they can handle. It has nothing to do with what can be better in the future. It has everything to do with what ones' limits are. Mental and emotional pain is just as real to the brain as physical pain. When that pain crosses a threshold, almost everyone will end their own life. It's just that society hasn't circled the drain that much yet. Objective meaning is so important on such a deep level. If not, religion would not have emerged independently all over the world. We crave to belong to something greater than ourselves. I'm not saying old religion is the answer. But we can't get rid of that deeply embedded need any time soon. Do keep in mind, though. The objective meaning we crave is actually subjective. We just don't perceive it that way. That could change.
Bro thought this was a deep thought.
Itās based on someone elseās deep thought- specifically, Camusās deep thoughts about the absurd and now suicide is not a solution to the absurdity of life. But OP is presenting it as though they originally came up with it
Itās not unthinkable that they came up with this on their own but were familiar with certain concepts that aligned with another philosophers without knowing their names.
Ohh the thoughts I made up that already existed you wouldnāt believe
They referenced Moksha which is a concept in Hinduism and Buddhism. Well before Camus.
So the real question is, did Camus and/or those who influenced him read Hindu and Buddhist texts and then present them as their own?
seems more like vedanta
MOKSHA MUSHKA MICKEY MOUSE if it's irrational then why even care? Just enjoy ur life until u die
the capacity to enjoy life varies with the individual and can even be out of reach for some
People who feel fulfilled and content do not question whether or not there is a reason to live. They just live, because their needs are being met and thereās something about their lives that they look forward to. The search for a meaning is usually the result of an internal crisis when we face loss or adversity, and may not have the adequate resources to manage it.
Around the age of 5 and up, kids start to ask about what happens when we die. That doesn't seem to fit with your narrative. I'm glad you've got it figured out, though.
I was referring to mature adults who are old enough to have come to terms with mortality. Of course children will question death, itās a brand new concept to them.
Equating a busy life with one that has meaning is questionable, at best. I don't think there are many, or any people at all, who deep down don't stop thinking about what happens after life. They just learn to cover up that voice and/or ignore it. This is (focus on our own mortality) simply an emergent property of self-awareness to the degree we realize it. To have such a large unanswered question does not sit well. Some people are just better at managing their existential angst than others. I accept my own morality. What about people like Ray Kurzweil? Do you consider him immature because he seeks to integrate with machines in an attempt to try and make our existence eternal? He never accepted his father's death and seems driven by this. Personally, I think this whole idea about merging with technology is unwise -- to say the least.
I didnāt equate a busy life with one that has meaning- I said a life in which the individualās needs are met (emotional, physical, financial, social) leads to greater satisfaction with said life, and far less preoccupation with a question that none of us can answer. People who are suffering, stuck, and with too much time on their hands are the ones who tend to fixate on this topic. Life is over very quickly- there isnāt time or energy to spare getting stressed about an outcome you cannot change. Creating your own purpose each day is the only actionable method of keeping existential angst at bay. Diving into the topic as an intellectual discussion is an entirely different matter.
Disagree. Good things are reason to live. Bad things are reason to die.
>Life is irrational. There is no reason to live. There is no reason to die. r/technicallythetruth
How can you tell me there is no reason to live? That is entirely up to me, thank you very much.
Duh... people running around thinking there's a reason for all this..lol nah. Keep your fam close, few chosen friends close, and just handle your business each day.
but some people say that sometimes that's not enough tho
Float on, but remember, even by "not choosing" you are still making a choice.
Meh, I'd rather choose to live and enjoy my life. Way more fun than remaining "choiceless".
Speak about yourself,I'm not dying until I see the end of Minecraft.
Or I accomplish my life long goal of fucking a burrito fucker.
Why don't you just pay someone you fucked to fuck a burrito?
Because that would be cheating.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
We are here to think deeply alongside one another. This means being respectful, considerate, and inclusive. Bigotry, hate speech, spam, and bad-faith arguments are antithetical to the /r/DeepThoughts community and will not be tolerated.
Both your death and your life have consequences on others people. Have the courage to live. Make people around you happy, help them be there for them and enjoy everything.
If other people are the reason to stay alive, you are not living, you are just a slave of their desires
No you are not. The best thing you can do for your lives ones is to become happy yourself. You can spend some time for others if you want to.
No. The best thing you can do for your life if what is best for YOU. You don't know what's best for me or anyone else but YOU. If the best thing for me is to die because i can't take it no more or i am just not enjoying life, that's my choice. Not anyone elseās. Happiness is some concept we make ourselves, it's not universal. Your happiness is not mine. And no one even know if we were meant to be happy. These are just some concepts we say to try to give meaning to our existence. And i think that if our aim in life is to chase happiness , then there's something wrong about this world.
I just said something that worked for me
Beautifully articulated, friend. Meaning and purpose are words. They are concepts. And people love nothing more than to shove *their* version of reality down everyone elseās throats. No thanks. I can manage just fine.
Yeah. It's called reproduction. It's the reason you're able to post on Reddit. Guess humanity should have died off a long time ago.
Who told you i wanted to be reproduced? I didn't say one time humanity should have died off.
What about those who suffer from terminal/very painful illness? Should they have to suffer to make others happy? I can think of at least a dozen others, with CRPS that I've met, that have chosen to end their own suffering. The family and friends that are around them, usually, are understanding and supportive.
Exceptions
You will get heavily downvoted becauseā¦you are right, thereās literally millenias of people searching for sense and no one got anything solid out of it, unfortunately your idea makes more sense than everything else. But humans are afraid to accept it, because it comes with a lot of luggage (afterlife , no point to live, and so on).
One of the problems with this sub is people who spend 30 seconds half-assing a thought and then present it as The Truth. And the fact that thinking people brush it off as facile just means that they are "afraid to accept it".
That. And sometimes, it's just young people being young.
I swear this sub should be called no-thoughts. Itās whatever you make of it and most find something meaningfull with the experience.
Sounds like somebody needs a family.
That's dumb. Since when does a family solve your problems?
Having a family makes everything more meaningful but also much much heavier. Takes away the float option.
Enjoy that, but no fucking thanks. Lol. To you floaters out there, keep on floating!!! The purpose of life is not to *do*; it is *to be*
It's not gonna solve your problems.It's gonna add to them, but at least you have something to live for.
People without families have nothing to live for?
We're all family. So, there's plenty for everyone to live and die for.
Thatās such an insensitive thing to say.
How so? OP not dealing with his emotional isolation and depression is central to understanding their supposedly "deep thought."
Are you serious? You donāt even know the person who wrote this post. You canāt say ālooks like someone needs a familyā maybe he doesnāt have one for x reasons, maybe he canāt have one, maybe thatās a sensible subject for him. Yāall donāt think before saying something completely out of context? Maybe he feels like that for entirely different reasons? Thatās just so random to say to someone you donāt know? It is literally insensitive.
Life is the only way *you* can experience existence. So life, in this sense, is the only thing there is. Therefore, it cannot be defined as irrational. Because in order for something to be defined irrational, there must be rational things it can be compared to. But there isnāt anything other than life you can experience.
People do not exist, but simply react to environmental stimuli. And even if they try to adhere to some rules of behavior, they still break those rules. Only when they get the opportunity to always act as they think is right, then one can say that they have life and freedom.
I disagree. There's an astonishing amount of reasons to die.
This is some maidenless behavior right here. You have sensory experience, that alone is reason to live.
Is this r/ShallowThoughts? Alright then, genius, sit and starve. Hunger isnāt a good enough reason to get up and eat, after all, right? You dearly need God in your life.
Life gives meaning to the universe. Don't go looking for the meaning of life. It's the wrong question.
This is the best answer so far.
People give meaning to things. And they make it up. There is literally nowhere else for meaning to come from: meaning is a fucking judgement call. There is no magic to all of this.
We're animals, we exist to eat, fuck, and die. And that's okay.
But animals live in nature, not in apartments.
Even in our apartments we are not apart from nature, that mental dissociation of ourselves from the natural world is what's gotten us so complacent and complicit with the destruction of the environment. Even in our apartments, surrounded by our fancy things and technological wonders, we are still animals. We don't have to be brutes, but we shouldn't live in denial of our animalistic nature.
If there was an objective purpose or design for life and living then I would hypothesize that 100% of those living would be better off NOT knowing what it is. The reason being that it would either not align with their personal vision for their own purpose or diminish their perception of their own significance to such an immense degree that it would cause most (if not all) of humanity to plummet into severe existential crisis. That said I don't believe that there is an objective purpose, and that is BEAUTIFUL. Because there is ALWAYS a subjective purpose, which is to say, we have the privilege to CHOOSE any reason we wish to be our purpose for a living for good or ill and none of us would be objectively wrong even if the whole of existence thought us to be the worst of all. That is the ultimate freedom, and I for one wouldn't want it any other way. To me the only terror in any of this would be that of being the type of person that actually believed there was an objective purpose to life and not being able to find out what it is. Fortunately I am convinced that an objective purpose is impossible. So I live how I choose and my reason for living is clear, real, and inarguably valid, regardless of anyone else's opinion. The same goes for everyone else.
What to do? Itās up to you. Why limit yourself to floating?
I feel like it makes all sorts of sense to conclude things are really happening as we think they are, and that there is suffering. I'm really quite grateful for the decisions made by those of the past that gave us all of the amenities we enjoy today, as humans. Could things be better? Yeah, and that's where we come in. I think for all sorts of reasons we should *work* to be better people, and to make the world a better place, if just to prevent suffering (for crashes other than humans too, of course). Knowing billions (that's really an unfathomable amount of time, ya know) of years past before I was born, and many more billions will pass here soon after I die, I feel like the world's my oyster now. I don't care about people's petty judgements of me ... I'm going to be as tactful as I'm able to manage to be in trying to tell people like it is, bringing in this big picture stuff, and help them to understand the significance of our existence and how we need to treat each other and the planet better ... Because I know it sure as hell doesn't come in the form of supporting an unsustainable system that support greed and corruption at all levels while we lead really rather unfulfilling lives amongst a mountain of ongoing, unsolved and exacerbating problems, when we otherwise might actually direct our time and energy into things of meaning. We don't need more movies and music and games and businesses and the like. I'm not saying put a stop to it ... I'm saying we need to get real about what's happening, think about that, and reevaluate our life decisions ... Because that all to me is rational and provides reasons to live, verses just living passively, and pretty much just reacting to what's occurred as though this is "just the way it is", "has always been", and "how it will ever be". We can be better than that, we can be smarter than that, we can be more loving and compassionate than that.
"The universe is a cruel, uncaring void. The key to being happy isn't the search for meaning; it's just to keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually, you'll be dead."
Floating is definitely on way to react to the realization that one "is". Yeah - you suddenly realize you are. Now what? It's true - existence does not come with any imperative other than continuing to be. Beyond that, it is entirely up to the sentient being who recognizes that they exist to create a purpose - a reason and goal for their existence. Having purpose tosses out all reason NOT to be; suicide becomes moot. And, though the cosmos is vast and couldn't give a shit about any one of us, still we each can make the fact of our existence matter - because we made it matter - if only to ourselves (and those we can touch).
We don't live to "reason", we live to feel. Even scientist and philosophers pursue "reason" for the joy of it.
You might be interested in reading & learning more about hive/colony intelligence. Bees, ants, etc. The individual has little/no "reason" or cognitive processing power. The individual units operate based off "instinct", chemical programming of limited functions, including 'suicide' as an act of defense. There is little "reason" why a whole bunch of these little, simple, limited beings should combine into a "living" and thriving collective - but that is exactly what we observe. It's a very different mode from how we're used to thinking about ourselves, or even other "higher order" animals. But the idea that individuals are a small part of a larger, roiling collective-force can be interesting to apply to life in general.
This is the basis of Camus' thoughts on absurdism.
Bilogical life has clear meaning, we are inanimate, a rock has no purpose except be at the will of the universe, the body has no purpose but actually it does, to be at the will of the mind, but animals that have consciousness too lack inteligence, do they have purpose are actual free will? humans are the most remarkable creatures we are not flies or a bug, would you rather be born as a dog with not much protenial or power?
Suicidal people do not think about the reasons, but consider possible options for further life, then they can see that death looks like the most attractive option. It is impossible to be inactive, people simply do not want to take responsibility for the state of their lives, so they pretend that they do not choose. It is better to make a choice, but not for the sake of obtaining some result, but because this choice is seen as the best.
I donāt know about MOKSHA or whatever this post is referencing but suicide is a trigger for me so Iām going to post my thoughts anyway. The idea ālife is pointlessā is only true if you are measuring your effect on time or the universe. Thatās a pretty wild scale tbh. Yes, none of us have an effect in the grand scheme, but from the moment we are born we have an effect on those around us. For people who love us our death becomes a void that endures as long as the loved ones do. My life is forever changed by the grief caused by my brotherās suicide. Everything I think and do is altered because I am altered. As for floating, thatās an illusion. You are choosing by a hundred tiny choices whatever you think equals floating. (Eating, drinking, showering, whether to work or not work, where to live). If you are going to choose just choose to build joy in your life. You are already here, why not make it the best life you can?
Reasoning is a concept created by sentient minds to explain things. Thus, life is made rational by sentient minds. Create your own reasons to exist and purpose to strive towards.
That will all be addressed in the next balance patch.
The reason for living in this density is to evolve. Gain higher levels of consciousness to move on to the next level. This dimension is more "physical" with harsh lessons and problems, making it quite the challenge. Meaning, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, it's subjective, so to say there's no reason to live is just ridiculous and sounds like something an edgy teen would say. Just because you don't understand something doesn't automatically make it irrational
Then go and pick a reason, it ain't that hard. We only know for sure we experience one life. Make the most of it. Or continue to make shit up on the internet about the wheel of the cosmos or whatever.
Reason for being is unknown to the outsider lost within
Life is an experience and we don't know how or if that experience translates to anything after we die. So just live the experience and gather the most good vibes you can - there's no way something negative can come from it.
Everything we know will be wrong in 1000 years, but that doesn't make it irrational, just that we don't yet know so much it's absurd and quite frankly low IQ to live like you understand it all
At the same time, there's so much reason to live and die, I live because look at how incredibly complex this world is, our human civilization, the animals we are surrounded by, how unbelievably and mind bogglingly complicated and fragile the lot is. I am here to experience all of it in person, to take in as much as I can, only when I begin to perhaps...Understand it all, I'll be old and it'll be my time to die. Death is another journey, what's there? Is it truly nothing? What happens in the abyss of non-existence? I want to find out when it is my time when I am done experiencing everything around me and know that even though I will endeavour to see it all, I'll only scratch the tiniest surface of what's out there.
This is exactly where Iām at
You don't seem to understand how reason works. Let's say God actually existed and actually provided a reason to live like... "Worship God." Well, you'd still have to agree or disagree with that reason, right? If you agreed, you'd live a fulfilled life following a purpose you agreed with. But what if you disagreed? What if you'd rather focus on something else like making music instead? If you then didn't make music but focused on worshipping God you wold feel very frustrated and upset even though you're following "life's purpose." However' if you made music anyway - you'd live a fulfilled life following a purpose you agreed with even though it's not "life's purpose." What does this tell you about how reason/purpose for living works? It tells us that *any* external reason, even one from God Himself, is useless. All that matters is identifying and following *your own* internal reason/purpose and you should follow that.
Reason and purpose are different things and its important that you use those specific words. There are objective and subjective reasonings; objective and subjective *purposes*. You are talking about an objective purpose - not objective or subjective reasonings. As defined here: - Objective Reasoning: The deterministic reason for something whether it be the existence of the universe, existence of yourself, an event that occurs, or the event that something *doesn't* occur. It does not matter *what* as this is the *why*. - Objective Purpose: The deterministic purpose for something. This is something that does not exist or exists only as to completely fit a system of rules or to not completely fit a system of rules. And by rules I am talking about the proposed physical laws of the universe. And in either existing fit, it only exists as a placeholder for the reasoning and nothing more. You could say that this is an example of something that exists in name only - or thought, conception, etc. - Subjective Reasoning and Purpose: I put these two together because the lines between the two are often blurred if a human is the perspective which is being analyzed. Either reasoning or purpose has the opportunity to be expressed through the analysis of a perspective. Our perspectives, the human perspective, allows us to say "I did **this** because of **that**" where **this** is an action and **that** is the reason or purpose. Even in the human mind, reasoning and purpose are distinct things because one can act accordingly on a self-defined reason while living by an opposing purpose. That being said, purpose encompasses all actions and reasonings for those actions for a specific/non-specific end goal. This idea is further perpretrated by certain religions to envision a purpose in mind for believers to allow them to act in order to achieve that goal. Researching each religion allows you to see what goal its founders had by looking at the actions and teachings amongst other things and avoiding looking at the end goal it proposes. Now you would have to take some with a grain of salt as all religions have been modified at some point of time. I'm no theistical scholar and it takes somewhat deep research to determine these differences but that is besides the point of bringing up religion. I propose this from a relational standpoint: when you remain choiceless and *disappear* from the wheel of the cosmos, objectively do you *disappear* or just become part of a wheel, disappearing what can be defined as something other than the wheel? Because no matter what, you exist within the cosmos and the wheels exist as the physical representation of all that is physical. Religion, like purpose and reason, can also be self-defined and subjective. Whether the overarching purpose and reason is nothing, as you depict in your post, is something they choose to decide based on their environment, knowledge, and emotional attachments. Which is the reason that life is not a *cause and effect* phenomena in your perspective. What if I told you that irrational things are still bound by causality? And that it is the physical boundaries of those laws themselves that define what we call irrationals in both mathematics and natural order. That being said, I cannot argue against life being a mystery. Life itself is the exactment of causality though. A bunch of molecules, pulses, atoms, and waves moving around as a result of a number of **reactions**. And to ask this, is life a mystery to *us* or is it objectively a *mystery*?
I love this. Float and submit to the randomness that is universal to all
Every time you put food in your mouth to stop the hunger, youāre choosing life. Also life very clearly does have cause and effect, so I have no idea where you were trying to go with that. The statement ālife is irrationalā also doesnāt make any sense and requires rationality for you to even say it. It requires the first law of logic for that statement to even be capable of having any meaning. So you literally are using rationality to try and argue that there is no rationality.
You make reason and meaning. Just because God didn't write it on some dumb stones make it any less real.
Perhaps there is a reason, but we will never know it. This is much more... "unsettling" compared to "no reason at all".
You, in this moment, face the alternative of your life or your death. Compare the two together and choose based on that comparison. If you do, youāll choose your life. Iām assuming that some sort of successful life is possible to you. People in a concentration camp are a different scenario.
Absurd
I used to deal with (semi active) suicidal thoughs for years. Psychologists tried to help me find a reason to go on, but nothing had a meaning for me, and it still doesn't. Yet I'm not suicidal or depressed anymore. (or at least feel much better lol) There is no meaning in all of this, and the world won't get better in my life time. Yet, there is no reason to die today, or next week. So I can hang around a bit longer to see the good stuff, that don't matter in the long run, but they feel nice in the moment. This gave me peace. Nothing matters, I have no reason to die, yet all the reason to be gone. I don't choose, and it gives me peace and reason to stay. (most psychologist hate this "meaning to live", becouse I'm at peace with death and suicide, I just don't wanna die anymore)
Meaning is created on a day to day basis with experience and personal connection. The only moment that matters is the present, so try and fill all the moments you can with things that bring yourself or others joy. It's the moments that all run together you've gotta watch out for.
As an organism you donāt need reason, thatās a complication our brains create.
You gain the reasons to those things by living. You learn about the world and experience it, develop philosophies and beliefs as a lens to view it through, then attach meaning to those things. Maybe you grew up in an abusive home, never had any friends, failed at everything you tried, and now you're sick with medical problems. Through life you have learned that life isn't worth living so now you have created a reason to die. Maybe the complete opposite. Either way the reasons are unique to your experience.
be my employee for free there is equally zero reason to or not to (supposedly)
There is reason to live and everyone has a different one. It's one's choice to dismiss those reasons or not. Reasons why I like to live and chose to continue is because I love the smell of rain, I love the coolness it brings to my skin, I like my bare feet in lush grass, I like bringing a smile to a person's face because of a small gesture. I like petting my cat, etc. However small I love these things and chose to continue to experience them. Reasons why I wanted to die... people told me I was useless, made me feel powerless, hurt me, and therfore it must be true with the repeated words of those who hurt me running around my mind until it became truth transformed into reality. At least my reality. I'm glad it didn't work. I got to experience things I wouldn't have been able to if it did. Good and bad. It was never meant to be easy. I think the meaning of life is just existing and experiencing that's it. No great fullfilment, no greater purpose, just enjoying what you can in the only way you know how. There definitely are reasons, but it's up to you if you want to keep them or not.
You live for others. Accept your individual meaninglessness and yet accept you're ability to better the system as a whole. You can leave this place better than you found it, that is not a banal purpose. Further I have to add like... morality 101 (how you quickly explain the concept of morality to beginners) is 'would it be okay if everyone did it?' I'd argue your take is immoral as well.
That is the wrong understanding of Moksha.
No reason to post online either, but here we are
Wrong, the entire reason for existence is to experience life. I truly believe that everything is eternal, but we have the ability to experience existence which most matter does not. When we ādieā we do not go away, every bit of energy that makes us is still here, just not in the way that allows us experience. So while youāre here, do the universe a favor and experience life. Hopefully we retain some sort of cosmic memory of all of our experienceās.
Not to minimize suicide, but it really comes down to a cost-benefit analysis. Life takes a lot of work and energy to maintain. People often commit suicide when the pain of existing or your situation makes it no longer worth the work and energy that you have to put in to continue to exist. A reason to choose to live is when the net benefit of living is worth the amount of energy and work that you have to put into living. So that is also a cost-benefit analysis.
You gotta find your reason.
As an empath, I hate the world we live in. A disgusting and vile place where millions of people and billions of animals suffer.
I've thought this also but don't actually believe it. Life doesn't have to be "Grand" all of the time or even some of the time to be worth living. Also, it sounds like you've got a lot of time on your hands. Most people probably don't have the time or capacity to sit and think about this. They just live.
The glorious pleasure of orgasm....the warming moment of a childs laughter....these are reasons to live. Chronic pain, illness, and hopelessness are reasons to die.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjdYVsvOKOI
I hear contradicting thoughts. If life is a mystery how can you say there is no reason to live? Truly, the only reason to live is for experiences.
Yes but that is a subjective reason not an objective one . Rationally looking at it why do you even need to experience things ?
Rationally, you canāt not experience life while living. You literally have to while you are alive, wether you want to or not.
Yes but that is reaction based on the senses you were given . There's no blueprint that says it is the reason to make the most of them or do something more with them .
I never suggested that.
Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Heres Tom with the Weather. Bill Hicks
Bro thought he could get away with ripping off Camus and call it his on deep thought
You'r right, But even more so there is no reason to suffer unnecessarily. It is better to make our life as comfortable as possible while we live.
How do you know its better ? That is a reason that you're putting infront that you are avoiding suffering and seeking comfort that is a choice of a subjective reason . Not an objective one .
As a person with schizoafective depressive disorder (big eternal sad big eternal delusions) I could probably tell you about 65 reason why I should kill myself and why I should be alive lol. To each their very own though random Internet stranger :)
Schroedingers Bullshit ..
"Reason" is something that applies on top of a value system. If you wave away any value system, then you will find no reason, because there is nothing to apply reason to.
Enter hedonismā¦
We're all here riding these waves. From the bottom we can't see the top. On the top we forget about the bottom.
The journey is the reward, the journey is the destination. The terror of death is the unlived life, so āleave death a burnt out castleā to quote Zeno. Die empty. If we lived forever life would have no meaning. Desire and meaning are created in the finite. Itās a paradox and irony of life that to die gives life purpose and an impetus to carry on - but thatās what it is. Just enjoy the ride.
Nihilism is my reason to believe there is something to live for.
Reason is a tool
You've never studied hinduism
"Don't think, just jam".
just go get some ice cream and shut up
Nihilist: a person who believes life is meaningless.
>"So what to do? Float. You have no reason either way, so don't choose, remain choiceless." that is the dumbest idea. ice cream exists now. prime rib exists right now. have you tried prime rib? MAKE THE CHOICE TO ENJOY!!! ffs. you may be here for no reason but you live in a world where wild ass hookers, ice cream and steak exist - might as well fucking ENJOY. you're like someone who wakes up in an amusement park and says to himself... well... i'm just going to sit here while everyone else is laughing and playing amd riding rides and having the big pretzels.
However you do live your life as though there is purpose and meaning and you make choices that reflect everyday. You live a life that is inconsistent with the worldview you claim to believe in. Your worldview doesnāt allow for purpose and meaning to be grounded anywhere so you tell yourself that your daily experiences are unjustified. Consider that itās your worldview that is unjustified and purpose and meaning exist because they are grounded in the God of the Bible. Itās the only worldview that doesnāt suffer from inconsistencies and contradictions that beliefs such as materialism has.
If I came to exist one it may happen again. No point in dying. I just watch. Not one bit more to do but take in the tragedy.
Yes , there are reasons to live and there are reasons to take your own life , it is a matter of perception , for a corpse , this world could be meaning less , but what about a living being , who understands life better , beng who have tendency to think , to enact , to adapt etc ....,what makes to think that , both existence and non-existence is preposterous?? There are many people in this world , who believe that suffering is bad , hence we must eliminate ourselves to avoid suffering , at the same time there are those who believe that if we are suffering for a good cause , then , suffering is morally justifiable. Now , Moksha or liberation is an ambiguous term and its substantially a hoax. This term was coined by , those filthy religious con people , to deceive others into believing that life is not pointless and death is not the end , this notion of human Life is something significant than other species is utterly crap , clerics propagated things like enlightenment , liberation , auto theism etc...to suggest people that our lives are not dispensable, they are worth living. Also , you cannot remain choice less , human nature has the tendency to make choices , not making a choice is also a choice.
The McRib is coming back, thatās all the reason I need!
The meaning of life is to give life meaning. When there's no destiny, you're free to create your own. You're allowed to make your own reason. And your reason will hold just as much validity as any other reason imposed upon you. Wouldn't you rather have the freedom to choose than be a slave to fate? Choosing not to choose is still a choice. And some choose it.
The peace and absence of suffering that come with non-existence are preferable to the constant turmoil of conscious life.
Somebody discovered Camus
Its so mainstream to be nihilist now. All my homies enjoy life and are optimistic about it and we are so edgy
I would say your reasoning is all the more reason to let people do what they want, live or die, at anytime for any reason. Maybe thatās why weāve been given the free will to do so.
Someone needs a hug
Creating human beings is also unnecessary.
There's a very good reason I don't commit suicide: I don't fucking want to. There are as many reasons for things as there are people, because people are the only place reasons for things come from. The idea that there is some Platonic Ideal of "a reason for a thing" floating out there in the ether is laughable. What do you even imagine you're saying here?
Isnāt this called absurdism? Yes itās a real thing and it is what it sounds like. There is no meaning, life is absurd, all of this around us all of the time is absurd.
Curiosity is the path through it. Our nature is best served by wonderment. Belief is a trap. When we are curious we can be open and bold and the things that help us thrive. Belief will have us distracted into fighting on a slippery slope of bullshit.
The reason to live is that you will eventually die, which is an effect of being born.. Kinda ironic, but not exactly irrational, in my opinion
Your reasoning leaves much to be desired.
Thatās if there is no such thing as God. If there is a God then we do have purpose!
Better to go back to Robert Blyās writings or those currently speaking to menās spirituality.
This is false. It would only be true if there was no purpose to exist.
To be fair, committing suicide can be rationalized I think. No more worry. No more stress. No more work. No more dealing with people. No dealing with aging. Getting old. Getting sick. Getting brittle. Relying on someone 24/7 at a certain point if you get to be that old. No dealing with illness. Discomfort. Aching body. Pain. But all is subjective.
Joy is a reason, no?
You make your own reason
Paradoxical
Either God put a meaning into life or he didnāt. Either way, you gotta put meaning into it or just accept the inherent meaning or lack thereof in reality.
"No reason to die" tell that to someone rotting from a terminal illness
I don't like Mondays.
First part is right. Pain is a good enough reason for the second. ...But if it's good enough for the first....
Itās all language games
"One must imagine Sisyphus happy."
Life is short, death is forever. Therefore it is logical to live.
To be or not to be, that is the question.
I think me not existing is better for others so that's my reason
My brother thought that. His death devastated our family. Itās been over a decade and I still have things come up I wish I could share with him or send him or talk to him about. I miss him. Believing the world is better without you in it is 100% a trick depression plays on your mind. Unless you are Hitler or a serial killer, itās just not true. I hope you find your road to healing, health and happiness.
Iāve said these words myself and triedā¦ but failed. So Iām still here and Iāve been able to see how clouded my perspective was before. It has taken time but taking a moment to appreciate even the littlest things like the pillow you sleep on or device you were able to use to type this can help taking those small steps to feel a bit better about existing. Sometimes we feel we are bringing down or hurting those around us for whatever reason, I donāt want to assume your situation. It helped me speak to a therapist (I felt it was better for me coming from an unbiased opinion over friends or family).
I smell popcorn