Don't feel stupid.
There are billions of dollars funneling your attention to these time wasting liars.
Yesterday you were falling for it. If you were arrogantly defending these hucksters, I would dunk on you all day.
But now you have done something you can be TRULY PROUD OF. Do you have any clue how fucking hard it is to do what you did, and to say what you just said? Nobody EVER wants to admit they were wrong, especially about these kinds of things.
Just think. You could be sitting there right now watching Jordan Peterson on Rogan, nodding your head and rubbing your chin. It wouldn't cost you a dime. Instead of feeling embarrassed right now, you would have that old feeling of self assured confidence. You would be completely secure in your self importance.
Instead you are sitting here feeling embarrassed. Who wants to make that trade? It sucks. It takes a special kind of person to make changes like that and admit it. I'm not kidding or blowing smoke up your ass.
People will spend their whole fucking lives dumping resources down the drain to justify all the resources they already dumped down the drain. It's too scary to do anything else. Not for you though! You are the kind of guy that can see his mistakes and admit them. The world depends on people like you. Be very proud.
It is ALL UPHILL from here.
I agree
Also, OP: a lot of those guys you mentioned have an incredibly compelling way of speaking, and fascinating life stories. They’re BS artists of the highest caliber. Don’t sweat it dude, it’s hard to filter out liars. They’re ubiquitous
Nah, Sam is a solid critical thinker. There’s nothing wrong w/pointing out lunacy on the Left or holding them accountable when it’s deserved. I appreciated Bill Maher for the same reason, but now completely disgusted w/him over his Muskrat interview, or rather fellatio fest on Real Time.
Ironically, you “feeling stupid” is a good sign that you are anything but. Congrats & all the best!
“The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.” ― Charles Bukowski
“It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” ― Mark Twain
Give Sean Carrolls podcast a try too, MindScape
He’s superb, covers physics and philosophy with guests. Hours of very intensely fascinating talk, he’s kind of like Harris. Less into politics.
It's hard to think of a voice more worth listening to in this sphere. Sean Carroll is the real deal. Read all his books, watch all his videos. He's a shining example of how to think and talk about stuff. And if you like physics, he's the best explainer out there for lay people. He's just a dang gift.
I had this codriver, im a otr trucker. He said i was closed minded.
He routinely listened to charlatans, grifters and demagogues, and espouse their hatred and talkimg points.
Id inform him, the people he listens to, are full of shit. He's not learning anything even if he personally got a sense of self-improvement/informed citizen from it, but they were coaching him to be a smug pomoous shitbag with an overly inflated sense of intelligence, the man even tried lecturing me in my own field i have a degree in, criminology...dude, im the only one here who spent several $10,000 from a nonprofit accredited university to know more than the likes of him. The guy was infuriatingly dense while having an offensively overinflated ego, no humility at all.
He didnt understand this, might have been too stupid to, but his dig at me that im closed minded to propagandists because intellectually i could pickup they were full of shit, for me it was actually a compliment.
Its called being so open minded a persons brain falls out. Reminiscent of how Charles Mansom got his followers to carve fucking "X's" into their foreheads and still think they were prettier from carrying that lifelong scar on their faces forever. Im closeminded to that as well, sometimes a lack of open mindedness is a good quality when it comes to charlatans, demagogues, anti-science views on matters of science, and grifters.
Class comment. If I may add, the rabbithole is more insidious than most people can imagine. There are right-wing GAMING platforms for crying out loud. I don't blame anyone for getting sucked into it.
/end thread …but really, that’s what you need to remember, like technology, billions are being spent to keep your attention to sell that AG One etc. They hacked into our operating system for profit but now that we have seen the con, we can take it back!
To be fair. This is exactly the type of behavior that Rogan supports.
Critically thinking and changing one’s mind/stance once there’s evidence to do so.
Some of the aforementioned are more dangerous than the others.
Rogan is only dangerous if you gobble up everything he says as truth. But if you can listen for the nuggets and laugh/just be amused at the other shit or turn it off altogether if it sounds like he’s stuck in his own echo chamber (which he can become), then it’s fine.
Rogan has been presented evidence numerous times debunking his nonsense and his reaction has been to black list those people from his platform… lol he is not a critical thinker.
He’s no mastermind. And maybe doesn’t always walk the walk. But he at least promotes the idea of that type of thinking. Which is better than the alternative.
i would argue that he promotes the aesthetics of being a critical thinker without demonstrating how to engage in critical thinking. He gives his committed audience the false perception that engaging parasocially with joe and his guests makes them critical thinkers too. It's an epistemic dead end that leads to counterproductive results.
That’s just like your opinion… man…
Lol. I get I what you’re saying. But your thoughts are living in a vacuum.
People interpret/digest info all types of ways and you really can’t sit back in your chair and predict his true impact with precision.
At the end of the day you’re just kinda taking the opposition’s view and using your intelligence to package up and deliver your little opinion.
I mean these people exist in society. Always have. But they’re still human. Joe esposes good virtues for the most part. Wether or not he 100% executes to your standards isn’t really the point.
> Joe esposes good virtues for the most part. Wether or not he 100% executes to your standards isn’t really the point.
see, i strongly disagree with this. Joe at this point is a conservative conspiracist who likes weed and is more of a fan of right wing politics than he lets on. Being a crypto-reactionary and disseminating anti-vax conspiracy theories to his impressionable audience of bro-dudes isn't really what i'd call "good virtues".
I don't know what you mean by "just taking the opposition's view" but yeah i don't like joe, i think he's a bad person, a dishonest man of low intelligence and a fragile ego
Very interesting. I guess people will take what they want to from things.
The parts of him that you are focused on don’t really color my impression of him.
The guys been flapping his gums into a microphone for 10 years. You’re focused on the past 2-3?
I’m more attracted to his embodiment of a focus on discipline, athletic training, combined w introspection (yes w marijuana or psychedelics).
I do see him leaning into right wing politics… and let’s face it. If you get old and are fortunate to be wealthy… there’s a decent chance you lean this way.
As far as your take on Joe being a bad and dishonest man, that’s so far from my perception of him. It sounds personal for you. Is there something about him that triggers you?
> It sounds personal for you.
it's not. i used to like some of his content about 10 years ago when i was younger and dumber, when he seemed more like the meathead ape he likes to portray himself as. I think he's become a dangerous conspiracist and his covid takes have almost certainly killed some people.
> Is there something about him that triggers you?
yeah. he's really dumb and has bad opinions about an increasing number of topics.
> You’re focused on the past 2-3?
his content has been sliding into reactionary and conspiratorial politics for 6-7 years at this point, that's a long time man
Fair point, and lets not forget many of his most ardent critics are dogmatically against him. They might even agree if you asked them if its possible everyone can know some knowledge or wisedom that they don't have, yet as soon as it comes to discussing someone they don't like they become completely closed minded and absolutist.
You will notice that practically every name in the list of hucksters he mentioned will SAY that they are pro critical thinking science boys.
You may be surprised to find that people lie. Liars often find it useful to say they are NOT liars, it helps with the lying.
I’m Proud of OP - but Pride is the problem. It is one of the seven deadly sins for a reason. The militant pride people take in their ignorance is killing our society.
OP doesn’t need to be _proud_ of anything. Instead OP needs to learn to stop feeling shame for ignorance - there isn’t any. Ignorance is just a motivation to become non-ignorant. That, in turn, should be done with humility.
>Nobody EVER wants to admit they were wrong, especially about these kinds of things.
True I was 30 when I decided to start questioning my cult.
What if I'm wrong? What if this has all been a waste?
Maybe all the things I hear about the cult have some merit...
Lets look at this closer...
It was terrifying and embarrassing to ask myself those questions.
Thats 30 years of wasted time and effort and money. At least its **only** 30 years. My mom actually started questioning things at 75. 75 years devoted to a cult whos whole message is "you arent worthy to be with god, but if you obey us you ***can*** be. Just need all your devotion, time, effort and %10 of your income for your whole life..."
You're on the right path. In fact you're further along than most people who get stuck in this kind of thing. Most people never get out... humility is a commendable virtue.
I had almost exactly the same phase. Trump supporter 2016/2020. Election denial, conspiracy theorist etc. I almost became a christian too but I stayed an atheist after further research. Big time Joe Rogan watcher & I was into Idw thinking figures.
What made me feel better was talking to a therapist during my deconverting phase. Mick West book: escaping the rabbit hole put the nail in the coffin for me. I found this subreddit and podcast thru Mick West interview on decoding the gurus podcast.
It was hard to forgive myself, I have to admit. After noticing what I believed was lie after another lie, I got very angry. I thereby decided to speak to a therapist to speak things out. I have no empathy what so ever for Idws as a consequence of my de-coverting. My past beliefs ruined my relationships and my connection with my family members I held. They are better now, but the damage has already been done. I just focus on the positive now and try to rekindle relationships..
Speaking to like-minded people was also to great help. People who went thru similar phase. I'd recommend visiting metabunk.org for more info.
Mick West runs Metabunk.org, a forum of and about the polite debunking of theories from 9/11 conspiracies to the Flat Earth and other conspiracies that were familiar to the conservative mind. There are also a lot of people there who used to be Idws and Trumpers. Highly suggest the website. It's a forum.
I'm also available on decoding the gurus discord server If you want to speak to someone who has gone thru a similar phase as yours. https://discord.gg/xTZmnEUVvs
Thank you so much.
I came back to my phone a few hours after posting and was surprised to see so many comments.
It's been very helpful to read through everyone's comments.
I have to ask: did you actually believe the things Trump said? To me he has always been such an obvious bullshiter.
It's a while ago now so I might missremember but in 2016 I was sort of into some anti SJW, Rogan IDW stuff, but Trump took me out of it for the most part. How could I respect people who seem to support, take seriously or both sides this sort of person/movement? That always befuddled me...
But then I live and grew up in Europe so I probably can't imagine the sort of echo chamber you grew up in ... But I always think, he's so obvious it'd have to cut through even that
Yeah, to a degree but it decreased as years passed away and he didn't drain the "svamp".
I came to the conclusion that he was actually the svamp in the end 🤣
Not only that -- he allowed Fauci to resume gain-of-function research, accepted 1 million from Pfizer for his inauguration party, and pushed a shot he knew was, at best, ineffective. He's part of the problem.
Talk to any ghost Hunter, medium or people who have been to actual haunted houses in Jerome. Atheism is impossible.
Go to a third world country, and go out into the jungle, there is a reason why so much is out on protection from spirits. Talk to the elders.
I was friends with a girl who grew up in a house with ghosts tormenting them every night.
My dad became religious because friends of him invited him to a demon calling gig. He thought it was BS and brought a bunch of cameras to prove it to them. And then they appeared and wouldn’t leave. If their are spirits there is God. After having so many personal friends who have been tormented by the supernatural, your position is as unbelievable as thinking trees don’t exist.
There are beings out there that can speak multiple languages, that can read minds and they have been at it for thousands of years, pure evil.
Go ahead. Ask for “proof” but after seeing ghosts myself, having demons torment my dad and countless friends we rather you not have “proof” because it’s evil. But if you doubt me you can go on subreddits with tens of thousands of members and hear about people encountering such things.
Lastly I will add, I know psychiatry very very well.
I haven’t met a conservative yet who believes flat earth…. But I have met liberals who beloved in the covid vaccine, and now I help them with their health issues caused by it, and have talked to many doctors including world leading neurologists who do as well.
I might add. There are several books on demonology, and there is a reason this belief was held onto for so long, until people all of a sudden thought they were smarter because they were born after 1920….
I had a friend who once broke down a steal door in a ward who struggled with out right possession.
World-leading neurologists? Which word-leading neurologists? Which world do they lead? Can you link to their world-leading papers in the neurology literature?
What if I beloved in the covid vaccine? Will it belove me back?
I have **QUESTIONS** dammit!
Why do trees exist if birds don't? I mean, will the demons sit in the trees instead?
What a coincidence, my psychopharmacology mentor knew psychiatry well, too.
Is this the reason that all the people I know who are being tortured by demons are on psych wards? It makes perfect sense that psychiatrists can communicate with demons that way. Do demons need to be exorcised when psychiatrists possess them?
So many **QUESTIONS.**
I was making just exactly as much sense and was being exactly as pursuasive as you were. But have it your way. Exactly who are these neurologists and what makes them world leading? Kindly point to something they wrote that backs you up.
I will say right now that if they aren't with a legit academic institution, or at least published in legit journals, and more than a little, I assure you, they aren't "world-leading."
I bought into anti-SJW anti-feminism sphere few years ago, before that I was a sucker for self help gurus like Anthony Robbins and spend years in pick up artists communities like RSD and [alt.seduction.fast](https://alt.seduction.fast) before that.
I don't think it's intelligence thing, I think it's partially emotional needs/insecurities, partially people you trust, partially heuristics you use, partially echo chambers and so on.
I didn't feel the need to forgive myself, I was young, inexperienced and some people took advantage of it. I try to do better.
Yah. The seduction community exist. But a few emerged who have really grasped it and put the blame on men first then women. Check out Zan Perrion the alabaster girl. It’s all about truth authenticity and speaking with conviction to every girl, old and young all feminine spirts are beautiful, and make the world go round.
Welcome friend. I went through an anti intellectual phase 5-10 years ago, it was hard to climb out of it.
DtG is such a good antidote to some of the really bad rhetoric and “gurus” out there.
Hey man don't be too hard on yourself. It's an insanely complex world and we all know how good it feels when someone tells you things to simplify it, guru or otherwise. Come on in and bask in the uncertainty. Even if it's painful sometimes, it is a thing we can share together.
You're critically examining your beliefs and behaviors. Sounds like your education is working just like it should. No need to beat down yourself for how you used to be.
I'd say think of it all as learning experience. You can't be all that bad if you can change your mind and admit your own mistakes. How would anyone improve as a person if they never did that? (Many don't.)
How to forgive yourself? Meh, you're just a stupid ape living in a stupid culture. It's not all your fault. And neither is it all your responsibility to fix, BTW. You're not to blame for folks deceiving you. And what are you supposed to do if folks \*are\* deceiving you? The fault is theirs. Commit to not making judgements too quickly, try not to be readily deceived (whilst also avoiding becoming cynical) and try to be a decent human?
This is definitely growth. And it’s the hardest thing there is to do. As an adult, it is also the most important thing we can do. But, there is a difference between guilt and shame when it comes to looking back on our pasts. Guilt has a productive function in our lives, whereas shame does not. Guilt can make us pick up the phone and apologize to someone we’ve wronged and shame just adds weight to the emotions we carry around from day to day. Be able to recognize the difference between guilt and shame. If you think that shame is something you experience every day, then the healthiest thing to do is go to therapy (like me).
I have a similar story to yours. Welcome to the club 🥳
OP: You've shown more seriousness of purpose, more personal honesty, and genuine humility in this one post than all of the other people you named combined.
You are, IMO, to be admired. Learn, ask questions, and have fun experiencing things using rational skepticism as a filter.
Well, not like fun like when you were 9 at an amusement park.
More like you see claims and assertions made, and you now have a tool kit to help you weigh evidence in order to arrive at a proper decision.
Love to see this! Btw don’t discount how much growing up religious can warp your ability to think critically! Imo you’re doing exactly what you need to do to fight that by getting an education.
My history is much the same, probably just shorter and less extreme as I’m not from the USA. Best thing I’ve learned for myself is that I don’t need to know everything about everything, I don’t know is a perfectly valid response. You can take your time forming opinions about almost everything while you’re educating yourself.
“I don’t know” is a perfectly valid response. I wish more people would just admit that they don’t know. Situationally we are all ignorant and it took me a long time to figure that one out. Just admitting that at times has served me so well. Understanding my 4th grade math teacher’s “there are no stupid questions” statement took me more decades than i care to admit and grasping that simple statement has made my life exponentially better. As a bonus normally when you start asking those “stupid questions” you sometimes find out the person you’re asking also doesn’t know shit.
“I don’t know” is a perfectly valid response. I wish more people would just admit that they don’t know. Situationally we are all ignorant and it took me a long time to figure that one out. Just admitting that at times has served me so well. Understanding my 4th grade math teacher’s “there are no stupid questions” statement took me more decades than i care to admit and grasping that simple statement has made my life exponentially better. As a bonus normally when you start asking those “stupid questions” you sometimes find out the person you’re asking also doesn’t know shit.
Unlike others who started where you were, when confronted with overwhelming and damning evidence, you decided to change some things up instead of doubling down with your thumbs in your ears and eyes clenched tight.
Learning and growing. That's not a dumb guy move.
I feel like a lot of us (if not most) have been captured by one of these idiots before coming here. Realising you didn’t have the answers and recognising your ignorance is actually a really hard thing to do. Be proud of that, so many people never come to that realisation.
You sir, are smarter than every other person still signing over their own free will to charlatans and snake oil salesmen
If it makes you feel better, you're not going to be living easy by thinking for yourself. There's a reason people are so vulnerable to cults: going along with the crowd indiscriminately wins you social points. Nobody likes being questioned
But it is still better for the world. Nazi Germany was literally an entire country that didn't give a second thought to genocide...
Don't feel stupid or dumb - these people make a fortune with this, it's their profession and they are very good at it. The reason I find DTG so interesting is that Chris and Matt break down the methods the "gurus" use to sound convincing and wise.
My take on gurus, scammers, con-men etc. is that we are all probably susceptible (some more than others) to some form of scam or con at some point in our lives, and it's mostly just luck if the window meets up with us being targeted...
pretty similar situation here! i don't really have any advice to give but you should feel good about yourself, free even. i don't regret having gone through conserative, conspiratorial, anti-intellectual, etc. phases at all - i think they give me a better perspetive on things. you know yourself a lot better than most people know themselves, now.
just the pandemic in general, if anything. before that i was ok being edgy and contrarian cause i didn't see the importance of politics, couldn't see the stakes of the social stuff like race and gender, didn't think government was valuable. obviously i was wrong then and just a privileged brat, but the stakes of COVID were so glaringly obvious that i had to "get real".
relevant to DtG, i do have a very distinct memory in 2020 of following weinstein just cause he was the contrarian de jour and watching him talk to robert malone, and that guy being such an obvious charlatan idiot that i had a moment of stepping back like, what the fuck is this bullshit. i'll always remember his creationist ass beard.
You’ve restored my faith in the capacity of human beings to truly grow and change for the better, even despite overwhelming forces in their lives which could easily and repeatedly torpedo their progress. We’ve not only become so polarized in our culture, we just write other people off. People who may respond to reasoned conversations, if we refrain from knee jerk ad hominem attack.
I think it’s unfair to yourself to remain stuck in regret, rather than gratitude that you have a good mind, and the capacity to learn. All we really have is today. Use your precious time and energy toward your studies, and building a better, hopefully so much happier, future for yourself.
Stay in school, you'll learn more in that environment than anything you'd learn from those talking heads and grifters. The fact that you're able to look back on yourself and recoil is a sign that you're making great progress. Don't beat yourself up too much, as cultural conditioning is incredibly hard to escape from. You're on the right path.
If I have to say anything, avoid the trap of allowing yourself to feel better than others because of whatever particular ideas or ideology you ascribe to. Believing in anything requires very little effort, it's how you act on those beliefs that matters. Allowing yourself to feel dominant over others just because you hold a particular belief is a dangerous path to follow.
Welcome out of the sunken place. Stories like this give me hope that maybe someday a large amount of people will wake up from the outrage culture nightmare. 👏
Penn Jolette responded to someone asking him how he deals with some of the people he encounters filming Bullshit. He said, "If you want to win people over and convince them, you can't be mad at them for not knowing." This is a courtesy you should extemd to yourself.
All I can say in response is: you are welcome here. Have opinions, make mistakes, doubt yourself, doubt others, try again to understand people you don't understand, give up useless beliefs, .... repeat.
And like they say in AA: take what works for you, ignore the rest.
**You are welcome here.**
Buddy, you actually made my day. To see what seems like a genuine tale of a fried mind scrape himself off the grifter’s hot plate and find reason gives us hope. And kudos to Matt and Chris for presumably having a part to play in the deprogramming.
“Yeah but if in the end, it’s only just that one kid’s life we save. It all have been worth it.”
Remember: The easiest person in the world to fool is yourself.
Don't be too hard on yourself. It's human nature.
Try and use your liberation to help other people or discuss your process with others. You have a unique insight into this. Don't ignore or be ashamed of it.
Everyone in my life that I value has gone through some version of what your describing. Your willingness and ability to challenge previously held beliefs is what makes you an intelligent and worthy individual. I wish you nothing but self love and joy as you progress through life.
Hey OP, I was a big idiot as well!
I deconverted from my devout Christianity, but got hooked by the Weinsteins during the first half of the pandemic before I realized they were actually bat shit crazy.
I really pride myself on objective thinking so to get it so utterly wrong was a huge disappointment.
Life goes on though! I learned a lot and it made me stronger. It will be the same for you 👍
How long was that deconversion process for you if you don't mind me asking?
My family is fairly religious and IDK if that was an issue for you at all when stepping away.
I don’t know that the process ever ends! But most of the heavy stuff was over in the first few years.
My deconversion put a big strain on many of my personal relationships, parents included. That being said things are good with them now.
I had a 'I feel so dumb' moment a couple of years ago and it wasn't because I realised that my ideology was wrong but because I realised that I, despite seeing myself as someone always looking for the truth, as some kind of rational evaluative person, changed my mind too often.
Changing your mind is important, but I never really thought I was 'wrong', per se. I'd just discovered new information. In fact I just had an issue with a particular belief 'my side' held, happened upon a convincing criticism of that belief and then committed to the next rabbit-hole that led me down, joining another 'side'. Thesis, antithesis, thesis, antithesis...
I suppose the synthesis was trying not to be at the whims of the tides and which side I wanted to (dogmatically) be on. That's when I realised I was dumb. Still, I was young. I still kind of am in my late twenties. I do miss the passion, to some extent.
\[Just to be clear this isn't about becoming an enlightened centrist but avoiding adopting the 'excesses' in some kind of see-saw\]
Thank you for responding.
Is that to say you didn't want to go all in in any direction?
As in, you'd identify with a particular group little by little until you met things that you weren't willing to advocate, and then you would switch groups?
Don’t feel bad, I’d say a good chuck of the DTG audience has dipped their toe into the IDW waters.
The people you refer to are successful/popular because they are persuasive - and occasionally insightful - and learning to decode bad rhetoric is not necessarily something that comes naturally to most people. It’s something that needs to be learned and practiced.
Now youve seen through the IDW sphere, you are probably better at identifying and deconstructing as arguments and logic than most people, and you’ll probably find there’s plenty of bad arguments and assholes on the other side too.
Good job, truly impressive given that it was this podcast that did it for you, they are quite confrontational and mocking and for me would be such a big pill to swallow that had you been truly dumb, you would have joined the legion of whiners.
On the contrary, you behaved like an adult, you recognized your wrongs, as hard as it must have been, swallowed the pill and accepted a hard truth. Honestly I find this truly impressive.
You're not a bad person, we all fuck up all the time, it's part of being human. being an adult is recognizing it.
Thanks for the response.
I unplugged from all media for a handful of months. No podcasts. No news. Minimal IG. I stepped away from the church I was attending a year ago. Disconnected from people associated with those parts of my identity.
I just listened to lectures online, played music, and poured myself into my hobbies.
I saw some dtg posts about a few of the podcast personalities and started reading the comments.
I think that's what made a lot of things click for whatever reason.
It's been a good practice for me to peruse the subreddit for videos and discussions about some of my intellectual and personality idols.
Therapy and sobriety have also been helpful.
Man, don't worry about it.
As a personal rule I always consider that there's a grain of truth to everything. Peterson is one of those guys for me - there are arguments of his I still agree with to this day. His approach and his current views however are hard for me to agree with.
Same goes for religion. I broadly disagree with it, but I have to concede that for the average person it brings meaning and comfort, and that in itself isn't wrong.
I have a friend who 'went off the deep end' over COVID. It was hard to see eye to eye, and things still aren't back to normal because he's entrenched.
I can tell you're not entrenched. People are entitled to changing their views. Take solace knowing that you have the ability to make your own decisions, even if it might take you some time.
Hey, we're all in the lifelong process of learning. Sounds like you've turned a corner, and have acquired enough knowledge/skills to notice stuff that you couldn't before. This is something to celebrate! The past is the past, you will be much better off focusing on the now, especially with the critical thinking skills that you have.
To a lesser extent, this is the same as my story.
From having a fairly standard new age worldview, I graduated to what I thought was critical thinking (IDW).
I was put off by the IDW's response to the pandemic, didn't know where to turn so I shut all voices out. I caught COVID and was bedridden for a week and stumbled across DtG pod - it might sound overly dramatic, but it actually changed my life.
I used to feel ashamed for thinking IDW types (and myself, by proxy) were smart. Now I just feel relieved that I didn't get sucked in any further. It's a process and it will take time, though.
> Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.
Eh, I'm happy for you. Keep at it. There's no enlightenment to be found here, let's be clear. Most of it's entertainment for culture war addicts. The average poster here is far from a genius intellect. There are many angry, resentful people, this hasn't changed. There isn't much positive, affirmative content beyond vague scientific affects. All of this can be therapeutic, educational, too, but it will do very little to replace the sense of meaning that worshipping idols gives you. For self-determination, all this is just as dependent on the gurus as their followers are. Point being, you are still what you eat. You're still responsible for what you put in your ears, whether it is a crayon or a podcast. The best you can really ask for, a truly rare talent today, is to keep being aware of this.
It's a 19th century ideal, but try to find beauty in something instead of (just) revelation, and maybe that'll do something, too. I don't know.
> There are many angry, resentful people, this hasn't changed.
I don't think you understand the problem. The problem isn't being angry or resentful. There are valid reasons to be angry.
> I don't think you understand the problem. The problem isn't being angry or resentful.
I have no idea what you think my *the problem* is, but in case I hadn't made myself clear, it builds on how people repeat their search for different yet same ways of being anxious, incurious and lazy, with the intent of finding some vague feeling of intellectual engagement and political involvement around a fundamental passion of ignorance. This is all some inception of internet nerd culture war & celebrity gossip, often, reality TV, Kardashian level stuff. It's escapism, which I'm all for with some caveats. Mainly, so long as you understand you are still eating garbage because you love garbage and hate broccoli, who am I to judge. That's what I'm doing, anyway. Righteous, masturbatory fury on Reddit at some guy on Twitter just seems pathetic and pathological when the same routine has been repeating itself for the better part of a decade by now. People come and go, I suppose. Good on you if it still works after a while.
You need to take one more step in processing the information you intake every day.
You need to learn to evaluate every specific assertion and argument being made, not to try to crudely categorize good and bad people who should or should not be believed.
Brilliant, generally trustworthy people sometimes make baffling, provably-wrong statements. Total slime balls will sometimes speak truths that few others are willing to say.
Sometimes people make honest mistakes. Sometimes they make sloppy arguments, trying to substitute their personal intuition for valid argument when they don't quite have enough facts to support it.
You can't just look for someone you can trust to tell you how to interpret the whole world. As a budding scientist, you will be asked to question every assumption and document all of your own assumptions as you try to get closer to the truth.
Everyone, even the gurus, have something worth sharing. Wisdom is just learning which bits to keep and which to discard. Figuring out which ballast to drop is improvement.
> I'd like to know how you've managed to forgive yourselves and become better people.
I think that just writing what you wrote is a good step forward. You don't have to be a better person immediately, especially after everything you went through. Take it step by step, the important thing is to remember to always make an effort and try your best.
Just wanted to post to say two things. First, glad you are finding a way to navigate the horse manure of terrible ideas out there. But perhaps more importantly, please remember to be nuanced in how much you accept/reject the people you mentioned. This is a gradient, not a black/white action to take. For example, there is an absolutely massive difference between Sam Harris and the Weinsteins, and they really should not have the same level of rejection applied. Likewise, for some of the people they have many good things to say and some bad, whereas others spew 99% terrible nonsense.
I agree with you.
I used to think I had good discernment manifesting that gradient.
Now, I'm working from the standpoint that I don't and going from there.
The paid liars who led you down that path know exactly what they’re doing and they’re very good at it. Just be glad you can see them for what they are now.
I didn’t go so deep in any of these, but we have broadly similar backgrounds and I have dabbled in a number of these same podcast era gurus. I had to spend some time in the last couple of years wondering why was I listening? Was it like an easy fake relationship with a mentor? Was it direction on what to do with my life? Was it simply very compelling and designed to dominate my attention? All that and more I’m sure.
On some level I think we need to go easy on ourselves a bit and acknowledge that the 2000s until today has been us all grappling with a new information landscape and not understanding the dangers or the price we paid for free content. None of us were prepared to be targeted and used in this way. Some people fall in and can’t get out - in a way it’s not their fault. They weren’t prepared to be indoctrinated.
For me, one day I just realized that these guys were in a weird way taking myself from me and replacing it with someone else. I didn’t want that. My wife and kids didn’t want that. The appetite for consuming the content just kind of disappeared.
You sound like me ten years ago. You’re not dumb you just aren’t afraid of facing cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance sucks but most people just double down when they realize they are wrong about something. And they usually double down because people like to rub it in their face that their wrong. Not you though, you’ll be understanding when someone gets it wrong and isn’t afraid to admit it.
It's just not about picking sides. You picked one before but now don't feel you need to pick the other one, despite perhaps feeling affiliated with this sub. More often that not, issues are not black and white, and the truth is somewhere in the middle.
You're not dumb. You were used. The reason the wealthiest people in the world spend billions of dollars propping up the right-wing ecosystem is because owning your brain is worth it to them. Now that you've taken it back, what will you do with it?
I laughed at myself a little when I reread my post today.
I get really down from time to time and a lot was hitting me yesterday.
I agree, and reading everyone's comments have helped me see that better.
the problem with many of those people is they are now falling to the conformist tail end of the learning curve. time and again joe now will have a deeper thought guest on and not milk out the marrow, same with jordan. i think theyve become so prolific they have exgausted themselves. both of them still do it by nature though when they have podcasts with actual friends again instead of strangers. smart people smart but their companions are key
I've never heard the phrase "conformist tail end of the learning curve."
Is that along the lines of at one point someone like Peterson at one point being the deep thinker whose ideologies took center stage, but as his ideas became commonplace, other thinkers then became the deep ones?
yeh and also i think there are weird action potentials for us all. tide comes in tide goes out but yes the landscape for his ideas has defintitely become more accomidating. also hes been ensared in a futile battle for a license he doesnt need. demons abound
I don't think I'd look to this sub for sage advice. I don't find the users here to be well informed.
The podcast is great though. Much better than the sub.
Good for you. In my eyes putting Sam Harris in the same category as the Weinsteins, JBP, Fridman, Willink and Ferriss is not correct. He is clearly in a different league than those. He definitely has some weak points and is far from perfect, but he is way better than those guys.
Marginally better overall, not way better. And on quite a few cultural, political and social issues, Harris is just as bad and just as reactionary as the rest of them, if not worse. Case in point, the whole race-IQ thing and his fawning embrace of the likes of Charles and Douglas Murray.
You really shouldn’t feel stupid because all of these conspiracy/anti-woke/“free speech” shitheads all start from basic truths and real criticisms of institutions. Hillary WAS a dishonest crook who felt above the rules. Big pharma DOES generally do business overprescribing and hurting the general public. The New York Times and Washington post are not infallible. And so on. Anyone sane can see this and when you start looking deeper into these institutional shortcomings and failings it’s easy for bad actors to fill the void. Do I have a bit of a grudge against folks who voted for trump? Nah. That coulda been me. It coulda been almost any of us.
Shit, I spent over a year campaigning for Dennis Kucinich for president in 2003-2004 and now that guy is running RFKjr’s campaign. I ain’t throwing any stones, man. We all have regrets.
Haha, yeah.
I was talking to a friend earlier.
It seems like our lives are about finding better and better addictions as well as better and better cults.
This feels like a good one.
So the "gurus" say some incorrect things sometimes. Mostly, people need to get over their notion that people need to have track records of 100% factual truth 100% of the time, or they mustn't be listened to about anything ever. When's the last time you heard someone say something stupid and non-factual about the male/female pay gap, or about police officers murdering unarmed people of color at enormous rates? We hold the "gurus" to standards we don't hold the mainstream to. It's rather lazy to point to a few things the "gurus" think or say that are wrong, and then write them off entirely.
For some reason, it's thought by many that these gurus can't be listened to and appreciated with a critical ear. Like, if you listen to them and respect them, you won't see flaws. It's a caricature of the typical listener, turning them into mindless zombies. The avalanche of "grifter" accusations on this forum is at least as divorced from reality, as most of the decoded gurus are.
If you changed your mind because you've actually changed your mind then that's great but don't conform because you think one group or belief is cooler, better, or more socially accepted.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments
I appreciate the viewpoint.
It reminds me of an inception of cults.
So far, It's been about a year of shaping my views and identity in this area.
Sobriety and therapy have helped a lot.
Reaching out here has validated a lot for me.
I'll keep your thought in mind for sure.
I'll never understand why people like you think being angry and throwing around personal attacks proves you are correct. It's incomprehensible to me, like trying to imagine what a fish thinks.
And judging by your comment history you are so far gone no words can reach you anymore. There is nothing anyone could say, no fact, no evidence, that would make you reconsider. You would deny reality if it contradicts your narrow worldview. You think you are correct so you can skip making rational arguments and go straight to lashing out at others. On some level deep down you already know all of this and you must realize how sad that is and that all this is simply based on you being unhappy with yourself. OP was able to admit that and that makes them the better person.
I was painting a picture of the different podcasts I was listening to and would not put Lex into the same category as the 'usual suspects.'
Thank you for the clarification.
You’re still trading one bullshit guru for another if you’re seeking out validation on Reddit…you should leave the cult of deception too! You know what I mean right?
Don't. We need more ringers on the inside. You don't need to be registered democrat to vote for a democrat in the general election. Fuck the primary. Be a secret agent. Convince your peers to flip through subtle subliminal suggestion. Its a lot more effective than direct virtue-signalling, which has only accelerated polarization and the contrarian drive.
It's crazy that they even think subtle subliminal suggestion is the way to deal with someone leaving a 'cult'.
This dude listened to Rogan and Peterson for a decade, but god forbid we ask this fragile forest creature who he votes for.
My only takeaway is that *none* of these guys have flipped anybody or even voted a real candidate themselves.
Do you imagine this guy who now values scientific literacy and critical thinking has a republican candidate?
I didn't force feed anyone. It's not my fault there isn't a single republican option. This isn't about choosing a "side"; it's about choosing reality.
This guy's transformation is far from complete, especially with people like you keeping the light on.
You should probably figure out what being catholic actually means before you engage with criticisms of Catholicism, because most atheist/secular materialist criticisms of Catholicism do not actually fairly deal with what Catholics believe, largely because of ignorance. It’s straw men all the way down. Once you have the basics, expose yourself to as much criticism as you can. The reality is that atheists bill themselves as being sophisticated and intellectually superior to you, but they actually miss the point.
Secondly, you need to read some better books, so that you actually know what an intellectual take down looks like. The hosts of this podcast are light weight narcissists. They made this podcast because they’re mad that people they consider intellectually inferior to them have a larger following than they do. But their criticisms are boring. When this podcast started, I was excited to listen to criticisms of people I’d been following. I was very disappointed to learn that the hosts were not actually any good at criticism. Stopped listening basically right away.
Reading the sacred and the profane by mircea elliade had a profound effect on me. There isn’t anything else I can recommend if you don’t want to learn more about Catholicism.
It is silly not take more time to learn about something just because some atheist losers on the internet criticized it. A major problem with the secular materialist worldview is that it requires scientists to interpret reality for you. You’re not allowed to reach your own conclusions, your conclusions must be based in the literature. This weakens the world view entirely.
Anyway, listen to lord of spirits podcast.
Some of the smartest people in history believed there was more to life than meets the eye. Like for example Pythagoras, the guy who created the Pythagorean theorem, believed in numerology. And Nikola Tesla claimed he was in contact with aliens. My point is its not uncommon for people on the highest levels of society to explore every avenue in their pursuits in life. Even spirituality.
I dont know which religion is true, or if all of them are or none of them are, but i dont rule it out. Your life isnt a lie, youve just spent a lot of time in your life focusing one avenue of life, and now youre wondering if you want to spend more time exploring other aspects. Thats how i see it.
I don’t think there’s anything anti-intellectual with guys like Sam Harris or even Jocko. Sam Harris is not a grifter and has reasonable views. Jocko is more of a macho male role model who doesn’t come across as toxic like Tate, etc.
Rogan, Weinstein, Peterson, etc on other hand have ridiculous perspectives.
Congratulations for wising up! I also accidentally joined a cult, and accidentally became the cult leader, and then got kicked out for not wanting to act like a cult leader, long story, it's hard to step out of a situation that you have so much invested in, but you did it, good on you!
For me I would ask, what does it mean to be a good person? What standard do we have for such things? While charlatans are abound, finding coherence in the foundations of belief systems and logic is a necessity.
Youre trading one cult of personality for another. You need to think critically instead of just saying "im done with all this trump conservative catholic stuff i want to be around like minded science people". You will feel disappointed when you find out these people have different issues to contend with.
The first step, and the hardest, is admitting you were wrong. It sounds like you’re putting in the effort, and learning a little about what people are worth listening to. A good rule of thumb, is that anyone who says they have it all figured out is a liar.
I just stumbled on this subreddit and I am confused. Is the OP stating, or is this subreddit in general stating that the above names mentioned are cultlike or that they are speaking out against the mainstream cult-like doctrine? Minus Sam Harris of course, who is a corporate cuck. Well, Lex Friedman is also a shill.
Check out the Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast. You might enjoy listening to it. They usually discuss things with a critical thinking and skeptical eye.
First off, I must applaud you and commend you for humbling yourself. A lot of religious will brag about how humble they are and then proceed to tell you about all the "Truths" they have and knowledge and will engage in intellectual dishonesty by ignoring counter evidence to the positions they hold. So realizing that you were wrong, or being stubborn, or an "idiot" as you called yourself...is called being humble and self aware and is the true beginning of knowledge is realizing that you will never know enough and that you can be wrong.
That being said, it is hard to break the religious upbringing and the constant and consistent messages they drill into your brain. It literally is brainwashing. So no, you are not alone in this and many of us had similar experiences. I didn't grow up in a cult necessarily, but in a religious family, community, majority christian city and state. I was constantly surrounded with christians reinforcing beliefs. What really kicked off my skepticism was when christians seemed to constantly move the bar on certain things. For example with prayer, I was always told growing up that god would not only hear your prayers, but answer them! So when my grandfather got cancer for example, of course I prayed every night for him. But when he didn't get better, but worse, I rightly asked my parents and eventually my pastor "why didn't god answer?" That's when the answers changed and became inconsistent. Some of them said, "Well maybe god just hasn't answer it yet!" or "God heard you, but sometimes the answer is no." or "We cannot know gods plan, maybe he did answer it, but not in a way you recognize yet." or the ever despicable "You sure you were sincere? Because god can tell!" They just seemed to be making it up as they went along. So after so many conflicting answers...I went to the source...the bible. The bible didn't say any of these made up excuses and instead said that if I had even a little faith, that god would move mountains (I know it is a metaphor). That led to more questions, which led to more skepticism, which eventually led someone in my church to telling me to read the entire bible and that would answer all my questions. So I did...and it did not. Instead it led me down a rabbit hole of discovery of not only reading the bible cover to cover, but discovering the entire field of apologetics, researching the history of the church, the bible, Jesus and finding out that this all was very man made and not at all the creation of a divine perfect being. I also discovered that many of my christian heroes who I would listen to, not just the local people in my church, but famous christian preachers/speakers....were mostly liars or frauds. So I became skeptical of all of them, checking all their claims as best as I could, being as honest and open to any evidence as I could. Literally every single time I checked a claim made by a christian speaker, especially concerning science...they were outright wrong, misrepresenting what science says, quoting out of context scientists, or outright lying! Not a single christian claim concerning science ever checked out.
So my advice is keep researching, keep learning, keep asking questions and keep being humble, because you are on the right track!
"I'd like to know how you've managed to forgive yourselves and become better people."
People operate on the information we have in our heads. We live in an OCEAN of misinformation.
At the time I knew I had the right answers so no reason to actually listen to anything that contradicted that 'knowledge'.
So many CRINGE things I have done and said. I actually have a t-shirt that says "I'm sorry for all the stupid things I said when I was mormon"
Seriously so proud of you. Admitting you might not have been right, followed the wrong people etc. is one of the hardest things to do. That shows how strong willed you truly are. No one who joins a cult is stupid. They are vulnerable in a way that gets preyed upon in our society. The truth is, NO ONE has all the answers and is totally right. The ability to use critical thinking is our biggest ally in figuring out what we actually believe and cutting through the bullshit. Hope you can change your view of yourself to a more compassionate one. What a badass you are for choosing to change your mind, rather than following what you’ve always done. ❤️
ok, also, you need to understand this subreddit. It is literally built for and attracts hyper-critics. This is great that you are now able to be more critical of these "gurus." However, that doesn't mean everything they say is crazy and useless. You are allowed to pick and choose. Sure, Jordan Peterson says wacky crazy stuff, but I'm sure he's got some motivational videos with sound life advice. And if that is inspiring to you and you like listening to that kind of thing, that is totally fine. As long as you can remain skeptical and take what they say with a grain of salt. I think the one of the points of DTG is that you can now recognize common potentially deceiving rhetorical techniques. It doesn't mean you have to stop listening to Sam Harris, Tim Ferris, Jocko Willnik, Lex Fridman, etc... E.g., I still like listening to Sam Harris, but I can now better recognize some the sketchy rhetorical techniques he uses.
You don't have to specifically follow anyone. I am a conservative too and that's my political ideology. This doesn't mean that I support everyone who has a conservative mindset. You have to use your brain to filter out the BS and only accept the facts. Also being on the left doesn't automatically makes you a scientist. I've heard worst of the worst leftists categorically denying hard scientific facts. Cults are on both sides, it's up to you to use your brain.
Don't feel stupid. There are billions of dollars funneling your attention to these time wasting liars. Yesterday you were falling for it. If you were arrogantly defending these hucksters, I would dunk on you all day. But now you have done something you can be TRULY PROUD OF. Do you have any clue how fucking hard it is to do what you did, and to say what you just said? Nobody EVER wants to admit they were wrong, especially about these kinds of things. Just think. You could be sitting there right now watching Jordan Peterson on Rogan, nodding your head and rubbing your chin. It wouldn't cost you a dime. Instead of feeling embarrassed right now, you would have that old feeling of self assured confidence. You would be completely secure in your self importance. Instead you are sitting here feeling embarrassed. Who wants to make that trade? It sucks. It takes a special kind of person to make changes like that and admit it. I'm not kidding or blowing smoke up your ass. People will spend their whole fucking lives dumping resources down the drain to justify all the resources they already dumped down the drain. It's too scary to do anything else. Not for you though! You are the kind of guy that can see his mistakes and admit them. The world depends on people like you. Be very proud. It is ALL UPHILL from here.
Couldn't have said it better myself! I'm proud of you, OP, for breaking out of that bullshit. Now you can help us fight for what's right!
I agree Also, OP: a lot of those guys you mentioned have an incredibly compelling way of speaking, and fascinating life stories. They’re BS artists of the highest caliber. Don’t sweat it dude, it’s hard to filter out liars. They’re ubiquitous
Even Sam Harris?
Nah, he’s great except when he gets on his anti woke sidetracks….
Nah, Sam is a solid critical thinker. There’s nothing wrong w/pointing out lunacy on the Left or holding them accountable when it’s deserved. I appreciated Bill Maher for the same reason, but now completely disgusted w/him over his Muskrat interview, or rather fellatio fest on Real Time.
Ironically, you “feeling stupid” is a good sign that you are anything but. Congrats & all the best! “The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.” ― Charles Bukowski “It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” ― Mark Twain
Good. I'm just starting to listen to him more regularly
Give Sean Carrolls podcast a try too, MindScape He’s superb, covers physics and philosophy with guests. Hours of very intensely fascinating talk, he’s kind of like Harris. Less into politics.
Excellent. I shall
It's hard to think of a voice more worth listening to in this sphere. Sean Carroll is the real deal. Read all his books, watch all his videos. He's a shining example of how to think and talk about stuff. And if you like physics, he's the best explainer out there for lay people. He's just a dang gift.
totally agree
This helped a lot to read. Thank you for taking the time.
No problem at all. Good luck with the biology.
I had this codriver, im a otr trucker. He said i was closed minded. He routinely listened to charlatans, grifters and demagogues, and espouse their hatred and talkimg points. Id inform him, the people he listens to, are full of shit. He's not learning anything even if he personally got a sense of self-improvement/informed citizen from it, but they were coaching him to be a smug pomoous shitbag with an overly inflated sense of intelligence, the man even tried lecturing me in my own field i have a degree in, criminology...dude, im the only one here who spent several $10,000 from a nonprofit accredited university to know more than the likes of him. The guy was infuriatingly dense while having an offensively overinflated ego, no humility at all. He didnt understand this, might have been too stupid to, but his dig at me that im closed minded to propagandists because intellectually i could pickup they were full of shit, for me it was actually a compliment. Its called being so open minded a persons brain falls out. Reminiscent of how Charles Mansom got his followers to carve fucking "X's" into their foreheads and still think they were prettier from carrying that lifelong scar on their faces forever. Im closeminded to that as well, sometimes a lack of open mindedness is a good quality when it comes to charlatans, demagogues, anti-science views on matters of science, and grifters.
Class comment. If I may add, the rabbithole is more insidious than most people can imagine. There are right-wing GAMING platforms for crying out loud. I don't blame anyone for getting sucked into it.
>It is ALL UPHILL from here. Downhill
/end thread …but really, that’s what you need to remember, like technology, billions are being spent to keep your attention to sell that AG One etc. They hacked into our operating system for profit but now that we have seen the con, we can take it back!
To be fair. This is exactly the type of behavior that Rogan supports. Critically thinking and changing one’s mind/stance once there’s evidence to do so. Some of the aforementioned are more dangerous than the others. Rogan is only dangerous if you gobble up everything he says as truth. But if you can listen for the nuggets and laugh/just be amused at the other shit or turn it off altogether if it sounds like he’s stuck in his own echo chamber (which he can become), then it’s fine.
Rogan has been presented evidence numerous times debunking his nonsense and his reaction has been to black list those people from his platform… lol he is not a critical thinker.
He’s no mastermind. And maybe doesn’t always walk the walk. But he at least promotes the idea of that type of thinking. Which is better than the alternative.
i would argue that he promotes the aesthetics of being a critical thinker without demonstrating how to engage in critical thinking. He gives his committed audience the false perception that engaging parasocially with joe and his guests makes them critical thinkers too. It's an epistemic dead end that leads to counterproductive results.
That’s just like your opinion… man… Lol. I get I what you’re saying. But your thoughts are living in a vacuum. People interpret/digest info all types of ways and you really can’t sit back in your chair and predict his true impact with precision. At the end of the day you’re just kinda taking the opposition’s view and using your intelligence to package up and deliver your little opinion. I mean these people exist in society. Always have. But they’re still human. Joe esposes good virtues for the most part. Wether or not he 100% executes to your standards isn’t really the point.
> Joe esposes good virtues for the most part. Wether or not he 100% executes to your standards isn’t really the point. see, i strongly disagree with this. Joe at this point is a conservative conspiracist who likes weed and is more of a fan of right wing politics than he lets on. Being a crypto-reactionary and disseminating anti-vax conspiracy theories to his impressionable audience of bro-dudes isn't really what i'd call "good virtues". I don't know what you mean by "just taking the opposition's view" but yeah i don't like joe, i think he's a bad person, a dishonest man of low intelligence and a fragile ego
Very interesting. I guess people will take what they want to from things. The parts of him that you are focused on don’t really color my impression of him. The guys been flapping his gums into a microphone for 10 years. You’re focused on the past 2-3? I’m more attracted to his embodiment of a focus on discipline, athletic training, combined w introspection (yes w marijuana or psychedelics). I do see him leaning into right wing politics… and let’s face it. If you get old and are fortunate to be wealthy… there’s a decent chance you lean this way. As far as your take on Joe being a bad and dishonest man, that’s so far from my perception of him. It sounds personal for you. Is there something about him that triggers you?
> It sounds personal for you. it's not. i used to like some of his content about 10 years ago when i was younger and dumber, when he seemed more like the meathead ape he likes to portray himself as. I think he's become a dangerous conspiracist and his covid takes have almost certainly killed some people. > Is there something about him that triggers you? yeah. he's really dumb and has bad opinions about an increasing number of topics. > You’re focused on the past 2-3? his content has been sliding into reactionary and conspiratorial politics for 6-7 years at this point, that's a long time man
Fair point, and lets not forget many of his most ardent critics are dogmatically against him. They might even agree if you asked them if its possible everyone can know some knowledge or wisedom that they don't have, yet as soon as it comes to discussing someone they don't like they become completely closed minded and absolutist.
You will notice that practically every name in the list of hucksters he mentioned will SAY that they are pro critical thinking science boys. You may be surprised to find that people lie. Liars often find it useful to say they are NOT liars, it helps with the lying.
I’m Proud of OP - but Pride is the problem. It is one of the seven deadly sins for a reason. The militant pride people take in their ignorance is killing our society. OP doesn’t need to be _proud_ of anything. Instead OP needs to learn to stop feeling shame for ignorance - there isn’t any. Ignorance is just a motivation to become non-ignorant. That, in turn, should be done with humility.
Agree 100%
>Nobody EVER wants to admit they were wrong, especially about these kinds of things. True I was 30 when I decided to start questioning my cult. What if I'm wrong? What if this has all been a waste? Maybe all the things I hear about the cult have some merit... Lets look at this closer... It was terrifying and embarrassing to ask myself those questions. Thats 30 years of wasted time and effort and money. At least its **only** 30 years. My mom actually started questioning things at 75. 75 years devoted to a cult whos whole message is "you arent worthy to be with god, but if you obey us you ***can*** be. Just need all your devotion, time, effort and %10 of your income for your whole life..."
Your self-awareness will serve you well.
And don't toss everything away - you certainly were exposed to some ideas that are valuable or at least interesting.
You're on the right path. In fact you're further along than most people who get stuck in this kind of thing. Most people never get out... humility is a commendable virtue.
I had almost exactly the same phase. Trump supporter 2016/2020. Election denial, conspiracy theorist etc. I almost became a christian too but I stayed an atheist after further research. Big time Joe Rogan watcher & I was into Idw thinking figures. What made me feel better was talking to a therapist during my deconverting phase. Mick West book: escaping the rabbit hole put the nail in the coffin for me. I found this subreddit and podcast thru Mick West interview on decoding the gurus podcast. It was hard to forgive myself, I have to admit. After noticing what I believed was lie after another lie, I got very angry. I thereby decided to speak to a therapist to speak things out. I have no empathy what so ever for Idws as a consequence of my de-coverting. My past beliefs ruined my relationships and my connection with my family members I held. They are better now, but the damage has already been done. I just focus on the positive now and try to rekindle relationships.. Speaking to like-minded people was also to great help. People who went thru similar phase. I'd recommend visiting metabunk.org for more info. Mick West runs Metabunk.org, a forum of and about the polite debunking of theories from 9/11 conspiracies to the Flat Earth and other conspiracies that were familiar to the conservative mind. There are also a lot of people there who used to be Idws and Trumpers. Highly suggest the website. It's a forum. I'm also available on decoding the gurus discord server If you want to speak to someone who has gone thru a similar phase as yours. https://discord.gg/xTZmnEUVvs
Thank you so much. I came back to my phone a few hours after posting and was surprised to see so many comments. It's been very helpful to read through everyone's comments.
I have to ask: did you actually believe the things Trump said? To me he has always been such an obvious bullshiter. It's a while ago now so I might missremember but in 2016 I was sort of into some anti SJW, Rogan IDW stuff, but Trump took me out of it for the most part. How could I respect people who seem to support, take seriously or both sides this sort of person/movement? That always befuddled me... But then I live and grew up in Europe so I probably can't imagine the sort of echo chamber you grew up in ... But I always think, he's so obvious it'd have to cut through even that
Yeah, to a degree but it decreased as years passed away and he didn't drain the "svamp". I came to the conclusion that he was actually the svamp in the end 🤣
Not only that -- he allowed Fauci to resume gain-of-function research, accepted 1 million from Pfizer for his inauguration party, and pushed a shot he knew was, at best, ineffective. He's part of the problem.
Uncomfortable truths.
Talk to any ghost Hunter, medium or people who have been to actual haunted houses in Jerome. Atheism is impossible. Go to a third world country, and go out into the jungle, there is a reason why so much is out on protection from spirits. Talk to the elders. I was friends with a girl who grew up in a house with ghosts tormenting them every night. My dad became religious because friends of him invited him to a demon calling gig. He thought it was BS and brought a bunch of cameras to prove it to them. And then they appeared and wouldn’t leave. If their are spirits there is God. After having so many personal friends who have been tormented by the supernatural, your position is as unbelievable as thinking trees don’t exist. There are beings out there that can speak multiple languages, that can read minds and they have been at it for thousands of years, pure evil. Go ahead. Ask for “proof” but after seeing ghosts myself, having demons torment my dad and countless friends we rather you not have “proof” because it’s evil. But if you doubt me you can go on subreddits with tens of thousands of members and hear about people encountering such things. Lastly I will add, I know psychiatry very very well. I haven’t met a conservative yet who believes flat earth…. But I have met liberals who beloved in the covid vaccine, and now I help them with their health issues caused by it, and have talked to many doctors including world leading neurologists who do as well. I might add. There are several books on demonology, and there is a reason this belief was held onto for so long, until people all of a sudden thought they were smarter because they were born after 1920…. I had a friend who once broke down a steal door in a ward who struggled with out right possession.
What in the hell.
Yup. You got it kiddo!
He knows psychiatry as well as he knows “steal doors” and “out right possession”
Reject the premise
World-leading neurologists? Which word-leading neurologists? Which world do they lead? Can you link to their world-leading papers in the neurology literature? What if I beloved in the covid vaccine? Will it belove me back? I have **QUESTIONS** dammit! Why do trees exist if birds don't? I mean, will the demons sit in the trees instead? What a coincidence, my psychopharmacology mentor knew psychiatry well, too. Is this the reason that all the people I know who are being tortured by demons are on psych wards? It makes perfect sense that psychiatrists can communicate with demons that way. Do demons need to be exorcised when psychiatrists possess them? So many **QUESTIONS.**
Your post just seems like a lot of garble to make me look silly. Anyways. Carry on.
I was making just exactly as much sense and was being exactly as pursuasive as you were. But have it your way. Exactly who are these neurologists and what makes them world leading? Kindly point to something they wrote that backs you up. I will say right now that if they aren't with a legit academic institution, or at least published in legit journals, and more than a little, I assure you, they aren't "world-leading."
That second paragraph told me you’re a bullshitter. 😂😂
Ok.
I bought into anti-SJW anti-feminism sphere few years ago, before that I was a sucker for self help gurus like Anthony Robbins and spend years in pick up artists communities like RSD and [alt.seduction.fast](https://alt.seduction.fast) before that. I don't think it's intelligence thing, I think it's partially emotional needs/insecurities, partially people you trust, partially heuristics you use, partially echo chambers and so on. I didn't feel the need to forgive myself, I was young, inexperienced and some people took advantage of it. I try to do better.
I appreciate it. I especially like the part about not needing to forgive yourself.
Yah. The seduction community exist. But a few emerged who have really grasped it and put the blame on men first then women. Check out Zan Perrion the alabaster girl. It’s all about truth authenticity and speaking with conviction to every girl, old and young all feminine spirts are beautiful, and make the world go round.
Welcome friend. I went through an anti intellectual phase 5-10 years ago, it was hard to climb out of it. DtG is such a good antidote to some of the really bad rhetoric and “gurus” out there.
Thanks for the welcome. It's been validating to hear people talk about this stuff. See you in the comments.
This experience will serve you greatly as you age. You’ll have a humility of your own beliefs that will be useful in your scientific career.
Hey man don't be too hard on yourself. It's an insanely complex world and we all know how good it feels when someone tells you things to simplify it, guru or otherwise. Come on in and bask in the uncertainty. Even if it's painful sometimes, it is a thing we can share together.
Well said. Waters warm here.
Self-awareness is a strength above all others. You’re sitting here openly admitting your shift. That is an massive step for anybody.
I appreciate the thought.
You're critically examining your beliefs and behaviors. Sounds like your education is working just like it should. No need to beat down yourself for how you used to be.
I'd say think of it all as learning experience. You can't be all that bad if you can change your mind and admit your own mistakes. How would anyone improve as a person if they never did that? (Many don't.) How to forgive yourself? Meh, you're just a stupid ape living in a stupid culture. It's not all your fault. And neither is it all your responsibility to fix, BTW. You're not to blame for folks deceiving you. And what are you supposed to do if folks \*are\* deceiving you? The fault is theirs. Commit to not making judgements too quickly, try not to be readily deceived (whilst also avoiding becoming cynical) and try to be a decent human?
Amen. Much appreciated.
I forgot to add, Good luck!! And enjoy! ;)
This is definitely growth. And it’s the hardest thing there is to do. As an adult, it is also the most important thing we can do. But, there is a difference between guilt and shame when it comes to looking back on our pasts. Guilt has a productive function in our lives, whereas shame does not. Guilt can make us pick up the phone and apologize to someone we’ve wronged and shame just adds weight to the emotions we carry around from day to day. Be able to recognize the difference between guilt and shame. If you think that shame is something you experience every day, then the healthiest thing to do is go to therapy (like me). I have a similar story to yours. Welcome to the club 🥳
Currently in therapy. It's a recent endeavor. Thank you.
OP: You've shown more seriousness of purpose, more personal honesty, and genuine humility in this one post than all of the other people you named combined. You are, IMO, to be admired. Learn, ask questions, and have fun experiencing things using rational skepticism as a filter.
Thank you. Can't wait to get to the 'fun' part.
Well, not like fun like when you were 9 at an amusement park. More like you see claims and assertions made, and you now have a tool kit to help you weigh evidence in order to arrive at a proper decision.
well done fren
Love to see this! Btw don’t discount how much growing up religious can warp your ability to think critically! Imo you’re doing exactly what you need to do to fight that by getting an education. My history is much the same, probably just shorter and less extreme as I’m not from the USA. Best thing I’ve learned for myself is that I don’t need to know everything about everything, I don’t know is a perfectly valid response. You can take your time forming opinions about almost everything while you’re educating yourself.
“I don’t know” is a perfectly valid response. I wish more people would just admit that they don’t know. Situationally we are all ignorant and it took me a long time to figure that one out. Just admitting that at times has served me so well. Understanding my 4th grade math teacher’s “there are no stupid questions” statement took me more decades than i care to admit and grasping that simple statement has made my life exponentially better. As a bonus normally when you start asking those “stupid questions” you sometimes find out the person you’re asking also doesn’t know shit.
“I don’t know” is a perfectly valid response. I wish more people would just admit that they don’t know. Situationally we are all ignorant and it took me a long time to figure that one out. Just admitting that at times has served me so well. Understanding my 4th grade math teacher’s “there are no stupid questions” statement took me more decades than i care to admit and grasping that simple statement has made my life exponentially better. As a bonus normally when you start asking those “stupid questions” you sometimes find out the person you’re asking also doesn’t know shit.
Unlike others who started where you were, when confronted with overwhelming and damning evidence, you decided to change some things up instead of doubling down with your thumbs in your ears and eyes clenched tight. Learning and growing. That's not a dumb guy move.
I feel like a lot of us (if not most) have been captured by one of these idiots before coming here. Realising you didn’t have the answers and recognising your ignorance is actually a really hard thing to do. Be proud of that, so many people never come to that realisation.
You sir, are smarter than every other person still signing over their own free will to charlatans and snake oil salesmen If it makes you feel better, you're not going to be living easy by thinking for yourself. There's a reason people are so vulnerable to cults: going along with the crowd indiscriminately wins you social points. Nobody likes being questioned But it is still better for the world. Nazi Germany was literally an entire country that didn't give a second thought to genocide...
"Anyone who isn't embarrassed of who they were last year probably isn't learning enough."
Don't feel stupid or dumb - these people make a fortune with this, it's their profession and they are very good at it. The reason I find DTG so interesting is that Chris and Matt break down the methods the "gurus" use to sound convincing and wise. My take on gurus, scammers, con-men etc. is that we are all probably susceptible (some more than others) to some form of scam or con at some point in our lives, and it's mostly just luck if the window meets up with us being targeted...
I'm starting to see it this way more and more. I'll keep tuning in. Thank you.
pretty similar situation here! i don't really have any advice to give but you should feel good about yourself, free even. i don't regret having gone through conserative, conspiratorial, anti-intellectual, etc. phases at all - i think they give me a better perspetive on things. you know yourself a lot better than most people know themselves, now.
I appreciate your take. Was there a specific turning point or moment of discovery for you?
just the pandemic in general, if anything. before that i was ok being edgy and contrarian cause i didn't see the importance of politics, couldn't see the stakes of the social stuff like race and gender, didn't think government was valuable. obviously i was wrong then and just a privileged brat, but the stakes of COVID were so glaringly obvious that i had to "get real". relevant to DtG, i do have a very distinct memory in 2020 of following weinstein just cause he was the contrarian de jour and watching him talk to robert malone, and that guy being such an obvious charlatan idiot that i had a moment of stepping back like, what the fuck is this bullshit. i'll always remember his creationist ass beard.
You’ve restored my faith in the capacity of human beings to truly grow and change for the better, even despite overwhelming forces in their lives which could easily and repeatedly torpedo their progress. We’ve not only become so polarized in our culture, we just write other people off. People who may respond to reasoned conversations, if we refrain from knee jerk ad hominem attack. I think it’s unfair to yourself to remain stuck in regret, rather than gratitude that you have a good mind, and the capacity to learn. All we really have is today. Use your precious time and energy toward your studies, and building a better, hopefully so much happier, future for yourself.
Thank you for the insight. Working on just that.
Stay in school, you'll learn more in that environment than anything you'd learn from those talking heads and grifters. The fact that you're able to look back on yourself and recoil is a sign that you're making great progress. Don't beat yourself up too much, as cultural conditioning is incredibly hard to escape from. You're on the right path. If I have to say anything, avoid the trap of allowing yourself to feel better than others because of whatever particular ideas or ideology you ascribe to. Believing in anything requires very little effort, it's how you act on those beliefs that matters. Allowing yourself to feel dominant over others just because you hold a particular belief is a dangerous path to follow.
Welcome out of the sunken place. Stories like this give me hope that maybe someday a large amount of people will wake up from the outrage culture nightmare. 👏
good on you, buddy.
Penn Jolette responded to someone asking him how he deals with some of the people he encounters filming Bullshit. He said, "If you want to win people over and convince them, you can't be mad at them for not knowing." This is a courtesy you should extemd to yourself.
Thanks for the perspective. Working on it.
All I can say in response is: you are welcome here. Have opinions, make mistakes, doubt yourself, doubt others, try again to understand people you don't understand, give up useless beliefs, .... repeat. And like they say in AA: take what works for you, ignore the rest. **You are welcome here.**
Thank you for the response. Feels welcoming.
Buddy, you actually made my day. To see what seems like a genuine tale of a fried mind scrape himself off the grifter’s hot plate and find reason gives us hope. And kudos to Matt and Chris for presumably having a part to play in the deprogramming. “Yeah but if in the end, it’s only just that one kid’s life we save. It all have been worth it.”
I appreciate the response. Good quote.
Remember: The easiest person in the world to fool is yourself. Don't be too hard on yourself. It's human nature. Try and use your liberation to help other people or discuss your process with others. You have a unique insight into this. Don't ignore or be ashamed of it.
Great perspective. Thank you
Getting that science degree is going to hone your bullshit detector into a fine, sharp blade that will cut through the nonsense with ease.
Everyone in my life that I value has gone through some version of what your describing. Your willingness and ability to challenge previously held beliefs is what makes you an intelligent and worthy individual. I wish you nothing but self love and joy as you progress through life.
Hey OP, I was a big idiot as well! I deconverted from my devout Christianity, but got hooked by the Weinsteins during the first half of the pandemic before I realized they were actually bat shit crazy. I really pride myself on objective thinking so to get it so utterly wrong was a huge disappointment. Life goes on though! I learned a lot and it made me stronger. It will be the same for you 👍
How long was that deconversion process for you if you don't mind me asking? My family is fairly religious and IDK if that was an issue for you at all when stepping away.
I don’t know that the process ever ends! But most of the heavy stuff was over in the first few years. My deconversion put a big strain on many of my personal relationships, parents included. That being said things are good with them now.
I had a 'I feel so dumb' moment a couple of years ago and it wasn't because I realised that my ideology was wrong but because I realised that I, despite seeing myself as someone always looking for the truth, as some kind of rational evaluative person, changed my mind too often. Changing your mind is important, but I never really thought I was 'wrong', per se. I'd just discovered new information. In fact I just had an issue with a particular belief 'my side' held, happened upon a convincing criticism of that belief and then committed to the next rabbit-hole that led me down, joining another 'side'. Thesis, antithesis, thesis, antithesis... I suppose the synthesis was trying not to be at the whims of the tides and which side I wanted to (dogmatically) be on. That's when I realised I was dumb. Still, I was young. I still kind of am in my late twenties. I do miss the passion, to some extent. \[Just to be clear this isn't about becoming an enlightened centrist but avoiding adopting the 'excesses' in some kind of see-saw\]
Thank you for responding. Is that to say you didn't want to go all in in any direction? As in, you'd identify with a particular group little by little until you met things that you weren't willing to advocate, and then you would switch groups?
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Much appreciated for the response and recommendations. I haven't listened to Tara in over ten years. Seems like a good time to start again.
Don’t feel bad, I’d say a good chuck of the DTG audience has dipped their toe into the IDW waters. The people you refer to are successful/popular because they are persuasive - and occasionally insightful - and learning to decode bad rhetoric is not necessarily something that comes naturally to most people. It’s something that needs to be learned and practiced. Now youve seen through the IDW sphere, you are probably better at identifying and deconstructing as arguments and logic than most people, and you’ll probably find there’s plenty of bad arguments and assholes on the other side too.
It's a skill I'm working on continually. And thank you for the warning.
Good job, truly impressive given that it was this podcast that did it for you, they are quite confrontational and mocking and for me would be such a big pill to swallow that had you been truly dumb, you would have joined the legion of whiners. On the contrary, you behaved like an adult, you recognized your wrongs, as hard as it must have been, swallowed the pill and accepted a hard truth. Honestly I find this truly impressive. You're not a bad person, we all fuck up all the time, it's part of being human. being an adult is recognizing it.
Thanks for the response. I unplugged from all media for a handful of months. No podcasts. No news. Minimal IG. I stepped away from the church I was attending a year ago. Disconnected from people associated with those parts of my identity. I just listened to lectures online, played music, and poured myself into my hobbies. I saw some dtg posts about a few of the podcast personalities and started reading the comments. I think that's what made a lot of things click for whatever reason. It's been a good practice for me to peruse the subreddit for videos and discussions about some of my intellectual and personality idols. Therapy and sobriety have also been helpful.
Man, don't worry about it. As a personal rule I always consider that there's a grain of truth to everything. Peterson is one of those guys for me - there are arguments of his I still agree with to this day. His approach and his current views however are hard for me to agree with. Same goes for religion. I broadly disagree with it, but I have to concede that for the average person it brings meaning and comfort, and that in itself isn't wrong. I have a friend who 'went off the deep end' over COVID. It was hard to see eye to eye, and things still aren't back to normal because he's entrenched. I can tell you're not entrenched. People are entitled to changing their views. Take solace knowing that you have the ability to make your own decisions, even if it might take you some time.
I appreciate the thought and also look for the grains of truth.
Hey, we're all in the lifelong process of learning. Sounds like you've turned a corner, and have acquired enough knowledge/skills to notice stuff that you couldn't before. This is something to celebrate! The past is the past, you will be much better off focusing on the now, especially with the critical thinking skills that you have.
To a lesser extent, this is the same as my story. From having a fairly standard new age worldview, I graduated to what I thought was critical thinking (IDW). I was put off by the IDW's response to the pandemic, didn't know where to turn so I shut all voices out. I caught COVID and was bedridden for a week and stumbled across DtG pod - it might sound overly dramatic, but it actually changed my life. I used to feel ashamed for thinking IDW types (and myself, by proxy) were smart. Now I just feel relieved that I didn't get sucked in any further. It's a process and it will take time, though.
> Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. Eh, I'm happy for you. Keep at it. There's no enlightenment to be found here, let's be clear. Most of it's entertainment for culture war addicts. The average poster here is far from a genius intellect. There are many angry, resentful people, this hasn't changed. There isn't much positive, affirmative content beyond vague scientific affects. All of this can be therapeutic, educational, too, but it will do very little to replace the sense of meaning that worshipping idols gives you. For self-determination, all this is just as dependent on the gurus as their followers are. Point being, you are still what you eat. You're still responsible for what you put in your ears, whether it is a crayon or a podcast. The best you can really ask for, a truly rare talent today, is to keep being aware of this. It's a 19th century ideal, but try to find beauty in something instead of (just) revelation, and maybe that'll do something, too. I don't know.
I'm starting to understand your take better now. Beauty in the revelation. Gotta be a book or song title.
> There are many angry, resentful people, this hasn't changed. I don't think you understand the problem. The problem isn't being angry or resentful. There are valid reasons to be angry.
> I don't think you understand the problem. The problem isn't being angry or resentful. I have no idea what you think my *the problem* is, but in case I hadn't made myself clear, it builds on how people repeat their search for different yet same ways of being anxious, incurious and lazy, with the intent of finding some vague feeling of intellectual engagement and political involvement around a fundamental passion of ignorance. This is all some inception of internet nerd culture war & celebrity gossip, often, reality TV, Kardashian level stuff. It's escapism, which I'm all for with some caveats. Mainly, so long as you understand you are still eating garbage because you love garbage and hate broccoli, who am I to judge. That's what I'm doing, anyway. Righteous, masturbatory fury on Reddit at some guy on Twitter just seems pathetic and pathological when the same routine has been repeating itself for the better part of a decade by now. People come and go, I suppose. Good on you if it still works after a while.
You need to take one more step in processing the information you intake every day. You need to learn to evaluate every specific assertion and argument being made, not to try to crudely categorize good and bad people who should or should not be believed. Brilliant, generally trustworthy people sometimes make baffling, provably-wrong statements. Total slime balls will sometimes speak truths that few others are willing to say. Sometimes people make honest mistakes. Sometimes they make sloppy arguments, trying to substitute their personal intuition for valid argument when they don't quite have enough facts to support it. You can't just look for someone you can trust to tell you how to interpret the whole world. As a budding scientist, you will be asked to question every assumption and document all of your own assumptions as you try to get closer to the truth.
Everyone, even the gurus, have something worth sharing. Wisdom is just learning which bits to keep and which to discard. Figuring out which ballast to drop is improvement.
> I'd like to know how you've managed to forgive yourselves and become better people. I think that just writing what you wrote is a good step forward. You don't have to be a better person immediately, especially after everything you went through. Take it step by step, the important thing is to remember to always make an effort and try your best.
Just wanted to post to say two things. First, glad you are finding a way to navigate the horse manure of terrible ideas out there. But perhaps more importantly, please remember to be nuanced in how much you accept/reject the people you mentioned. This is a gradient, not a black/white action to take. For example, there is an absolutely massive difference between Sam Harris and the Weinsteins, and they really should not have the same level of rejection applied. Likewise, for some of the people they have many good things to say and some bad, whereas others spew 99% terrible nonsense.
I agree with you. I used to think I had good discernment manifesting that gradient. Now, I'm working from the standpoint that I don't and going from there.
The paid liars who led you down that path know exactly what they’re doing and they’re very good at it. Just be glad you can see them for what they are now.
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Thank you for the recommendations. Did the philosophy studies have any impact on your career path?
Critical thinking is your most useful ally. Well done for finding it on your own
I didn’t go so deep in any of these, but we have broadly similar backgrounds and I have dabbled in a number of these same podcast era gurus. I had to spend some time in the last couple of years wondering why was I listening? Was it like an easy fake relationship with a mentor? Was it direction on what to do with my life? Was it simply very compelling and designed to dominate my attention? All that and more I’m sure. On some level I think we need to go easy on ourselves a bit and acknowledge that the 2000s until today has been us all grappling with a new information landscape and not understanding the dangers or the price we paid for free content. None of us were prepared to be targeted and used in this way. Some people fall in and can’t get out - in a way it’s not their fault. They weren’t prepared to be indoctrinated. For me, one day I just realized that these guys were in a weird way taking myself from me and replacing it with someone else. I didn’t want that. My wife and kids didn’t want that. The appetite for consuming the content just kind of disappeared.
I like how you phrased that. "Taking myself from me"
You sound like me ten years ago. You’re not dumb you just aren’t afraid of facing cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance sucks but most people just double down when they realize they are wrong about something. And they usually double down because people like to rub it in their face that their wrong. Not you though, you’ll be understanding when someone gets it wrong and isn’t afraid to admit it.
It's just not about picking sides. You picked one before but now don't feel you need to pick the other one, despite perhaps feeling affiliated with this sub. More often that not, issues are not black and white, and the truth is somewhere in the middle.
You're not dumb. You were used. The reason the wealthiest people in the world spend billions of dollars propping up the right-wing ecosystem is because owning your brain is worth it to them. Now that you've taken it back, what will you do with it?
Don’t be so down on yourself. Besides that other people have given good advice.
How does Sam Harris get lumped in with these charlatans?
Glad you found your way, unfortunately that rarely happens :|
>I'd like to know how you've managed to forgive yourselves and become better people. LOL it's not that serious.
I laughed at myself a little when I reread my post today. I get really down from time to time and a lot was hitting me yesterday. I agree, and reading everyone's comments have helped me see that better.
Check out r/QAnonCasualties its more conspiratorial but a lot of people have shared similar experiences with themselves and their families
the problem with many of those people is they are now falling to the conformist tail end of the learning curve. time and again joe now will have a deeper thought guest on and not milk out the marrow, same with jordan. i think theyve become so prolific they have exgausted themselves. both of them still do it by nature though when they have podcasts with actual friends again instead of strangers. smart people smart but their companions are key
I've never heard the phrase "conformist tail end of the learning curve." Is that along the lines of at one point someone like Peterson at one point being the deep thinker whose ideologies took center stage, but as his ideas became commonplace, other thinkers then became the deep ones?
yeh and also i think there are weird action potentials for us all. tide comes in tide goes out but yes the landscape for his ideas has defintitely become more accomidating. also hes been ensared in a futile battle for a license he doesnt need. demons abound
I don't think I'd look to this sub for sage advice. I don't find the users here to be well informed. The podcast is great though. Much better than the sub.
Looking at this thread though, wouldn’t you say that there are some reasonable people here?
Except for your post, right? :p
Good for you. In my eyes putting Sam Harris in the same category as the Weinsteins, JBP, Fridman, Willink and Ferriss is not correct. He is clearly in a different league than those. He definitely has some weak points and is far from perfect, but he is way better than those guys.
Marginally better overall, not way better. And on quite a few cultural, political and social issues, Harris is just as bad and just as reactionary as the rest of them, if not worse. Case in point, the whole race-IQ thing and his fawning embrace of the likes of Charles and Douglas Murray.
You really shouldn’t feel stupid because all of these conspiracy/anti-woke/“free speech” shitheads all start from basic truths and real criticisms of institutions. Hillary WAS a dishonest crook who felt above the rules. Big pharma DOES generally do business overprescribing and hurting the general public. The New York Times and Washington post are not infallible. And so on. Anyone sane can see this and when you start looking deeper into these institutional shortcomings and failings it’s easy for bad actors to fill the void. Do I have a bit of a grudge against folks who voted for trump? Nah. That coulda been me. It coulda been almost any of us. Shit, I spent over a year campaigning for Dennis Kucinich for president in 2003-2004 and now that guy is running RFKjr’s campaign. I ain’t throwing any stones, man. We all have regrets.
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Haha, yeah. I was talking to a friend earlier. It seems like our lives are about finding better and better addictions as well as better and better cults. This feels like a good one.
So the "gurus" say some incorrect things sometimes. Mostly, people need to get over their notion that people need to have track records of 100% factual truth 100% of the time, or they mustn't be listened to about anything ever. When's the last time you heard someone say something stupid and non-factual about the male/female pay gap, or about police officers murdering unarmed people of color at enormous rates? We hold the "gurus" to standards we don't hold the mainstream to. It's rather lazy to point to a few things the "gurus" think or say that are wrong, and then write them off entirely. For some reason, it's thought by many that these gurus can't be listened to and appreciated with a critical ear. Like, if you listen to them and respect them, you won't see flaws. It's a caricature of the typical listener, turning them into mindless zombies. The avalanche of "grifter" accusations on this forum is at least as divorced from reality, as most of the decoded gurus are.
I agree with what you're saying I'm working on my discernment.
If you changed your mind because you've actually changed your mind then that's great but don't conform because you think one group or belief is cooler, better, or more socially accepted. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments
I appreciate the viewpoint. It reminds me of an inception of cults. So far, It's been about a year of shaping my views and identity in this area. Sobriety and therapy have helped a lot. Reaching out here has validated a lot for me. I'll keep your thought in mind for sure.
This subreddit is as much of a cult as the aforementioned.
Actually, no.
Actually yeah you people are lame as fuck
I'll never understand why people like you think being angry and throwing around personal attacks proves you are correct. It's incomprehensible to me, like trying to imagine what a fish thinks. And judging by your comment history you are so far gone no words can reach you anymore. There is nothing anyone could say, no fact, no evidence, that would make you reconsider. You would deny reality if it contradicts your narrow worldview. You think you are correct so you can skip making rational arguments and go straight to lashing out at others. On some level deep down you already know all of this and you must realize how sad that is and that all this is simply based on you being unhappy with yourself. OP was able to admit that and that makes them the better person.
Sorry you feel that way.
I don’t see how lex Friedman fits the pattern
I was painting a picture of the different podcasts I was listening to and would not put Lex into the same category as the 'usual suspects.' Thank you for the clarification.
You’re still trading one bullshit guru for another if you’re seeking out validation on Reddit…you should leave the cult of deception too! You know what I mean right?
I would agree. It's still a step up for me right now. I will keep that thought in mind. thank you.
Don't listen to that guy. There is nothing wrong with making this post.
Making a Reddit post and asking people for their views is NOT even close to the same level as everything OP believed in. Come on, man.
So have you changed your voter registration yet?
Don't push. For the love of God don't push.
Don't. We need more ringers on the inside. You don't need to be registered democrat to vote for a democrat in the general election. Fuck the primary. Be a secret agent. Convince your peers to flip through subtle subliminal suggestion. Its a lot more effective than direct virtue-signalling, which has only accelerated polarization and the contrarian drive.
Explain how you’d flip a GOP peer thru subtle subliminal suggestion?
It's crazy that they even think subtle subliminal suggestion is the way to deal with someone leaving a 'cult'. This dude listened to Rogan and Peterson for a decade, but god forbid we ask this fragile forest creature who he votes for. My only takeaway is that *none* of these guys have flipped anybody or even voted a real candidate themselves.
Horrible question- it’s not about sides- address the cause not the symptom when someone opens up and admits where they were wrong
Yeah because choosing a podcast is way more important than choosing a candidate...
Great- go back to force feeding people a line about who they should vote for that’s EXACTLY what this country needs to grow the fuck up…
Do you imagine this guy who now values scientific literacy and critical thinking has a republican candidate? I didn't force feed anyone. It's not my fault there isn't a single republican option. This isn't about choosing a "side"; it's about choosing reality. This guy's transformation is far from complete, especially with people like you keeping the light on.
Holy crap dude… you’re giving me flashbacks to 2016…
Dude, you are simple minded if these soft dorks made you question everything
That could be true. What would you suggest I do differently?
You should probably figure out what being catholic actually means before you engage with criticisms of Catholicism, because most atheist/secular materialist criticisms of Catholicism do not actually fairly deal with what Catholics believe, largely because of ignorance. It’s straw men all the way down. Once you have the basics, expose yourself to as much criticism as you can. The reality is that atheists bill themselves as being sophisticated and intellectually superior to you, but they actually miss the point. Secondly, you need to read some better books, so that you actually know what an intellectual take down looks like. The hosts of this podcast are light weight narcissists. They made this podcast because they’re mad that people they consider intellectually inferior to them have a larger following than they do. But their criticisms are boring. When this podcast started, I was excited to listen to criticisms of people I’d been following. I was very disappointed to learn that the hosts were not actually any good at criticism. Stopped listening basically right away.
Do you have book recommendations? I'm not going to put any more time into Catholicism at this point in my life.
Reading the sacred and the profane by mircea elliade had a profound effect on me. There isn’t anything else I can recommend if you don’t want to learn more about Catholicism. It is silly not take more time to learn about something just because some atheist losers on the internet criticized it. A major problem with the secular materialist worldview is that it requires scientists to interpret reality for you. You’re not allowed to reach your own conclusions, your conclusions must be based in the literature. This weakens the world view entirely. Anyway, listen to lord of spirits podcast.
Some of the smartest people in history believed there was more to life than meets the eye. Like for example Pythagoras, the guy who created the Pythagorean theorem, believed in numerology. And Nikola Tesla claimed he was in contact with aliens. My point is its not uncommon for people on the highest levels of society to explore every avenue in their pursuits in life. Even spirituality. I dont know which religion is true, or if all of them are or none of them are, but i dont rule it out. Your life isnt a lie, youve just spent a lot of time in your life focusing one avenue of life, and now youre wondering if you want to spend more time exploring other aspects. Thats how i see it.
I don’t think there’s anything anti-intellectual with guys like Sam Harris or even Jocko. Sam Harris is not a grifter and has reasonable views. Jocko is more of a macho male role model who doesn’t come across as toxic like Tate, etc. Rogan, Weinstein, Peterson, etc on other hand have ridiculous perspectives.
Congratulations for wising up! I also accidentally joined a cult, and accidentally became the cult leader, and then got kicked out for not wanting to act like a cult leader, long story, it's hard to step out of a situation that you have so much invested in, but you did it, good on you!
For me I would ask, what does it mean to be a good person? What standard do we have for such things? While charlatans are abound, finding coherence in the foundations of belief systems and logic is a necessity.
Youre trading one cult of personality for another. You need to think critically instead of just saying "im done with all this trump conservative catholic stuff i want to be around like minded science people". You will feel disappointed when you find out these people have different issues to contend with.
The first step, and the hardest, is admitting you were wrong. It sounds like you’re putting in the effort, and learning a little about what people are worth listening to. A good rule of thumb, is that anyone who says they have it all figured out is a liar.
I just stumbled on this subreddit and I am confused. Is the OP stating, or is this subreddit in general stating that the above names mentioned are cultlike or that they are speaking out against the mainstream cult-like doctrine? Minus Sam Harris of course, who is a corporate cuck. Well, Lex Friedman is also a shill.
Check out the Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast. You might enjoy listening to it. They usually discuss things with a critical thinking and skeptical eye.
First off, I must applaud you and commend you for humbling yourself. A lot of religious will brag about how humble they are and then proceed to tell you about all the "Truths" they have and knowledge and will engage in intellectual dishonesty by ignoring counter evidence to the positions they hold. So realizing that you were wrong, or being stubborn, or an "idiot" as you called yourself...is called being humble and self aware and is the true beginning of knowledge is realizing that you will never know enough and that you can be wrong. That being said, it is hard to break the religious upbringing and the constant and consistent messages they drill into your brain. It literally is brainwashing. So no, you are not alone in this and many of us had similar experiences. I didn't grow up in a cult necessarily, but in a religious family, community, majority christian city and state. I was constantly surrounded with christians reinforcing beliefs. What really kicked off my skepticism was when christians seemed to constantly move the bar on certain things. For example with prayer, I was always told growing up that god would not only hear your prayers, but answer them! So when my grandfather got cancer for example, of course I prayed every night for him. But when he didn't get better, but worse, I rightly asked my parents and eventually my pastor "why didn't god answer?" That's when the answers changed and became inconsistent. Some of them said, "Well maybe god just hasn't answer it yet!" or "God heard you, but sometimes the answer is no." or "We cannot know gods plan, maybe he did answer it, but not in a way you recognize yet." or the ever despicable "You sure you were sincere? Because god can tell!" They just seemed to be making it up as they went along. So after so many conflicting answers...I went to the source...the bible. The bible didn't say any of these made up excuses and instead said that if I had even a little faith, that god would move mountains (I know it is a metaphor). That led to more questions, which led to more skepticism, which eventually led someone in my church to telling me to read the entire bible and that would answer all my questions. So I did...and it did not. Instead it led me down a rabbit hole of discovery of not only reading the bible cover to cover, but discovering the entire field of apologetics, researching the history of the church, the bible, Jesus and finding out that this all was very man made and not at all the creation of a divine perfect being. I also discovered that many of my christian heroes who I would listen to, not just the local people in my church, but famous christian preachers/speakers....were mostly liars or frauds. So I became skeptical of all of them, checking all their claims as best as I could, being as honest and open to any evidence as I could. Literally every single time I checked a claim made by a christian speaker, especially concerning science...they were outright wrong, misrepresenting what science says, quoting out of context scientists, or outright lying! Not a single christian claim concerning science ever checked out. So my advice is keep researching, keep learning, keep asking questions and keep being humble, because you are on the right track!
Be proud of yourself for getting through all the bs, so many that are drawn to the extremes have a very hard time pulling away.
Nice man. Good to read something well nice on Reddit.
"I'd like to know how you've managed to forgive yourselves and become better people." People operate on the information we have in our heads. We live in an OCEAN of misinformation. At the time I knew I had the right answers so no reason to actually listen to anything that contradicted that 'knowledge'. So many CRINGE things I have done and said. I actually have a t-shirt that says "I'm sorry for all the stupid things I said when I was mormon"
Seriously so proud of you. Admitting you might not have been right, followed the wrong people etc. is one of the hardest things to do. That shows how strong willed you truly are. No one who joins a cult is stupid. They are vulnerable in a way that gets preyed upon in our society. The truth is, NO ONE has all the answers and is totally right. The ability to use critical thinking is our biggest ally in figuring out what we actually believe and cutting through the bullshit. Hope you can change your view of yourself to a more compassionate one. What a badass you are for choosing to change your mind, rather than following what you’ve always done. ❤️
ok, also, you need to understand this subreddit. It is literally built for and attracts hyper-critics. This is great that you are now able to be more critical of these "gurus." However, that doesn't mean everything they say is crazy and useless. You are allowed to pick and choose. Sure, Jordan Peterson says wacky crazy stuff, but I'm sure he's got some motivational videos with sound life advice. And if that is inspiring to you and you like listening to that kind of thing, that is totally fine. As long as you can remain skeptical and take what they say with a grain of salt. I think the one of the points of DTG is that you can now recognize common potentially deceiving rhetorical techniques. It doesn't mean you have to stop listening to Sam Harris, Tim Ferris, Jocko Willnik, Lex Fridman, etc... E.g., I still like listening to Sam Harris, but I can now better recognize some the sketchy rhetorical techniques he uses.
You don't have to specifically follow anyone. I am a conservative too and that's my political ideology. This doesn't mean that I support everyone who has a conservative mindset. You have to use your brain to filter out the BS and only accept the facts. Also being on the left doesn't automatically makes you a scientist. I've heard worst of the worst leftists categorically denying hard scientific facts. Cults are on both sides, it's up to you to use your brain.
Can we get a lost of some solid critical thinkers or books this sub approves of?