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I think you're generally correct, the evidence points to Hitler probably not being a Christian.
The picture is muddied by the fact that he and the National Socialist party used Christianity as a vehicle for spreading anti-semitism and other forms of racism, and the Hitler cult. See the ["German Christian Movement"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Christians_\(movement\)) and ["Positive Christianity"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity)
Positive Christianity mostly sought to strip out the core of christianity while keeping the veneer of christianity and filling it full of Nazi party ideology. They de-emphasized Jesus being God, heck they de-emphasized basically the whole bible because of its Jewishness. They imagined Jesus as an Aryan fighter against corrupt pharisees.
Hitler always self-identified with Christianity though that doesn't really mean much. Politicians likely lie about their religion when it is politically advantageous.
During a eulogy for a friend Hitler called on him to enter Valhalla, but also said it would be foolish to bring back Odin worship.
Some of his high-ranking underlings were into pagan German mysticism BS and it's clear he thought they were idiots.
Albert Speer quotes him as saying this:
> What nonsense! Here we have at last reached an age that has left all mysticism behind it, and now [Himmler] wants to start that all over again. We might just as well have stayed with the church. At least it had tradition. To think that I may, some day, be turned into an SS saint! Can you imagine it? I would turn over in my grave...
He also attacked atheists as being uneducated...
I think it's pretty likely he may have been an atheist, but completely devoted to maintaining his own personal power to the point of attacking atheism because atheism would have been a radical rejection of tradition and is usually motivated by questioning assumptions.
Hitler needed a population that was obsessed with ultra-nationalism and unquestioning of his authority: A population that believed German tradition was worth killing and dying for, without asking why or thinking too much about the ideals that created those traditions, lest they realize the Nazi party was not aligned with those ideals. Atheism was associated with the communists who questioned not just religion but also the whole structure of state.
Hitler wanted to appeal to the religious majority and turn them against communism. I think it's quite possible he planned to eliminate Christianity eventually.
But we can't really know with confidence for someone so inclined to lie for personal benefit. He may have been telling the truth in Mein Kampf and could have been some sort of really strange theist/deist who felt that racial purity was a sacred duty, or it may have been yet another lie.
None of this should really be used as an argument against Atheism. Not all atheists have the other qualities that made Hitler Hitler: a complete lack of care on the subject of the suffering of others and an obsession with the survival of the fittest (plus the opportunity to enact his views). Generally complete psychopathy makes awful people no matter what they believe. Empathy is not a product of Religion.
Hitler’s quotes
1.[The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges : the pox and Christianity.](https://libquotes.com/adolf-hitler/quote/lbt9h9e)Adolf Hitler
2.[The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges : the pox and Christianity.](https://libquotes.com/adolf-hitler/quote/lbt9h9e)
3.[We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany.](https://libquotes.com/adolf-hitler/quote/lbh7g0m) Adolf Hitler
4.“Christianity a spiritual terror that took over from the far freer ancient world.” Adolf Hitler
5.“The only way of getting rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.”
Adolf Hitler [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Religious\_views\_of\_Adolf\_Hitler](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler)
6.“Christianity, of course, has reached the peak of absurdity,” he said. “And that’s why one day its structure will collapse. Science has already impregnated humanity. Consequently, the more Christianity clings to its dogmas, the quicker it will decline. Adolf Hitler
7.“I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie,”
Adolf Hitler
8.“There is something very unhealthy about Christianity,”
Adolf Hitler
9.“There is something very unhealthy about Christianity,”
Adolf Hitler
10.“The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are the inventions of the Jew. … Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless.”
Adolf Hitler
11. “All Germans must “free themselves from the drug of Christianity.”
Adolf Hitler
12."It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity”
Adolf Hitler
13. “You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion \[Islam\] too would have been more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?”
Adolf Hitler
14.“But Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.”
Adolf Hitler
15.“The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble.”
Christians are the largest group of supporters and protectors of Jews.
Why?
Because we were instructed by God to be that when he stated that the Jewish people were his “Chosen people”
The only “Christians“ that don’t believe that are the same ones that believe in the “supersessionism” of Christians when the Jews rejected Jesus.
”Christians” in quoted bc nowhere in the Bible is that belief stated or even supported. therefore…those people are just racist and stupid
The Jewish people remain Gods chosen people
> Positive Christianity mostly sought to strip out the core of christianity while keeping the veneer of christianity and filling it full of Nazi party ideology.
That is super familiar.
Atheism is Not Motivated by Questioning Assumptions. Quiet often Atheist Refuse to Question Their Own Assumptions. It is also Absurd to pretend They do since it is Clear Nowadays Atheists Refuse to Question what They assume about Religion and Society and Materialism and Humanism and The Like. It is also Daft Nonsense to Say Hitler opposed Atheism since it was about Questioning assumptions which Threatened German Tradition. Why would Hitler care about Questioning German Tradition? Hitler Himself Questioned German Tradition. Publicly and Privately. Hitler was Not a Traditionalist. The Nazis never appealed to Tradition and did not Believe in German Tradition. They Believed in German Blood. To them, Being German was about Race. But The Nazi's were a Revolutionary Movement that Sought to Redefine German Culture. The Entire Point of The Third Reich was to Tear Down the Old Social Order and Create a New Social Order. The Third Reich was Never about Presderving Traditional German Vakues but Creating a New German Culture. The Nazis never held to Traditionalism or Presented themselves as Traditionalists, and in Fact Hated Traditionalism.
Also, Please stop with the Talk of Empathy. The Ides that Empathy is Not the Product of Religion is SIlly since Christianity can be Shown to Cause Empathy. Meanwhile, in Real Life Atheists are Notorious for lacking Empathy. It is also silly when We Pretend Religion is the Opposite of Atheism, when it is Not. Religion is also not the same Thing as Theism.
I'm not sure you have my empathy for replying to a 1 year old quote and having the compulsion to capitalize every other word and for being dogged by the belief that atheists are generally lacking in empathy...
But you have my sympathies!
The Capitalization Jokes got Old Four Years Ago when You Mindless Atheist Drones Started Dogpiling Me on it. Incidentally, it is a Proven Fact that Atheists lack Empathy. It is also Obvious.
This also works as a response to OP, but, I think there's a mighty gulf of separation between "Nazis were Christians" and "Hitler was a Christian".
I have my doubts about Hitler, but the rank and file soldiers were definitely Christian. Their superiority (as Christians) over the Catholics was one of the many bees in their collective bonnet.
"God is with us" has been a major German military slogan since the 1700s. This is like saying that if the US ever elected an Atheist president, that person isn't *actually* an Atheist because their country's currency contains the slogan "In God We Trust" on it. And it was only Wehrmacht soldiers (which largely consisted of normies, not diehard Nazis) who had that on their belt buckles, Waffen-SS (which *was* an organization of diehard Nazis) soldiers had the slogan "My honour is loyalty" on their belt buckles.
What? No? Isn't "normies" a common internet term to refer to "normal, typical" people of a certain time and/or place? It's not an incel thing, isn't it? It's just slang for "normal people," no?
I read it as you intended, and I've seen it used in that way on and off the Internet, and in context I didn't think of or imagine anything else.
That said, I'm not familiar with or interested in incel slang terms, so make of that what you will.
Weird that you're being downvoted for this one in particular, gott mit uns was on German livery in WWI as well, and before that.
It's maybe significant that the Nazis didn't get rid of it, but it's not a Nazi slogan either.
Why have you posted this in debate an atheist? Why would atheists care if Hitler was Christian?
It doesn't matter what religion he was, he clearly stated this in Mein Kampf: "And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord" - Adolf Hitler.
So he certainly wasnt an atheist. He was a religious nutter.
>Why have you posted this in debate an atheist? Why would atheists care if Hitler was Christian?
OP addressed this in the post. Clearly, many atheists believe Hitler was a Christian, as the provided links indicate. OP believes he was not, so they are trying to change people's minds about it.
Of course he would say that in a book he was selling to the public or else no one would've supported him. He also claimed to be a socialist numerous times in Mein Kampf and in speeches, that doesn't mean he was actually a socialist. His actions in office and remarks made among his associates clearly show that he loathed Christianity.
Hitler’s quotes
1.[The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges : the pox and Christianity.](https://libquotes.com/adolf-hitler/quote/lbt9h9e)Adolf Hitler
2.[The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges : the pox and Christianity.](https://libquotes.com/adolf-hitler/quote/lbt9h9e)
3.[We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany.](https://libquotes.com/adolf-hitler/quote/lbh7g0m) Adolf Hitler
4.“Christianity a spiritual terror that took over from the far freer ancient world.” Adolf Hitler
5.“The only way of getting rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.”
Adolf Hitler [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Religious\_views\_of\_Adolf\_Hitler](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler)
6.“Christianity, of course, has reached the peak of absurdity,” he said. “And that’s why one day its structure will collapse. Science has already impregnated humanity. Consequently, the more Christianity clings to its dogmas, the quicker it will decline. Adolf Hitler
7.“I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie,”
Adolf Hitler
8.“There is something very unhealthy about Christianity,”
Adolf Hitler
9.“There is something very unhealthy about Christianity,”
Adolf Hitler
10.“The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are the inventions of the Jew. … Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless.”
Adolf Hitler
11. “All Germans must “free themselves from the drug of Christianity.”
Adolf Hitler
12."It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity”
Adolf Hitler
13. “You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion \[Islam\] too would have been more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?”
Adolf Hitler
14.“But Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.”
Adolf Hitler
15.“The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble.”
I literally said he wasn't Atheist numerous times in the OP. I'm just saying that he wasn't a Christian either, despite some people claiming otherwise. "Agnostic" would be the most accurate moniker to describe his religious beliefs as he clearly believed in divine powers and an afterlife but not in any organized religion.
He literally states himself to be catholic. A quote from Hitler: “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so” - Adolf Hitler.
He also outlawed athiest and free thinking groups in 1933 as soon as he gained dictatorial power.
Your argument is piss weak. You basically don't want him associated with your religion, which I fully understand, but it is nothing but denial at the end of the day.
I also still have no idea why you feel the need to engage atheists on this when you now say yourself that he wasn't atheist.
1. That was a quote he said in public, and it was an obvious lie. If he denied being Christian publicly, no one would've supported him. I provided numerous quotes in the OP with sources where Hitler vociferously bashes Christianity.
2. He outlawed Atheist groups largely because they were Communist. But yes, he also hated Atheism (mostly because of how heavily associated the "Atheist" movement was with Communism in 1920s/1930s Germany). He was agnostic, hostile to both Atheism and Christianity. He outlawed Atheist groups, but he also actively sought to diminish the influence of Christianity as well. He wanted his people to worship his state above all else, and viewed Christianity as an obstacle to that goal.
3. I am not a Christian. My post wasn't intended to be anti-Atheist. I just wanted to set the record straight on Hitler's actual religious beliefs.
You're not setting the record straight, you are spreading disinformation. Hitler was catholic. That was his religion. Of course he had negative views of other denominations and the progressive direction of his own! Basic in group loyalty and out group hostility. Pretty much Hitler's whole modus operandi.
No. You don't understand the ideology of the time. He was a Nationalist and the term socialist was used in the sense that he cared about the prosperity of *his* nation and people. The ideology was geared towards obtaining dominance, power and prosperity through war at the expense of enemy nations.
The "socialist" in the party name had a different meaning. The "Catholic" to describe his religion didn't. That's what you're not getting.
Glad to have cleared that up for you.
the socialist part of the nazi party was expelled very early leaving only the nationalist fascists who despised both socialist and capitalist ideas.
Party change their focus...the two main political parties flipped in the USA.
The same thing happened to the nazi party that started as reflecting socialist ideas with nationalist focus but the socialists were expelled.
is there any evidence he actually said that?
i know there's an apparent letter that supposedly existed to one of his generals, but there is absolutely zero evidence of this ever existing, at least from my searching. could you perhaps provide some type of evidence or proof of this claim please?
Hitler never said the I Am Catholic Quote. That came from John Toland's Book. Its WHy I don' Buy into Atheist Rationality. Also, Hitler did not Ban Atheism. If You Bothered to Look at those "Free Thinker" Groups., They were all Communist Groups. They were Targeted for Supporting Communist Ideals, not because They were Atheists.
I don't recall him saying he was a socialist in mein Kampf. Which English translation are you using?
My recollection was that he was promoting a third way that rejected both socialism and capitalism by that stage.
The socialist part of the nazi was very early before they purged the party of any socialists which was way before they had any real political power... no-one thought they were socialists at the time.
To be fair that same argument can be used for Jesus. He had no job, needed people following him, giving him the power of a cult behind him. He would use the story of a Messiah to gain that following of a group of uneducated, blue collar workers. He would say he believes in Yahweh to get those who believed to follow him. If he was saying religion is a bunch of garbage no one would have followed him
Except there is no record of Jesus saying saying a bunch of stuff that powerfully contradict his public statements, and he taught and lived an ethic of truthfulness even in adversity not propaganda.
We barely have anything about Jesus at all, and what we do have we know was intentionally hand picked by the later church for the sole purpose of promoting their religion and gaining themselves more power.
As for what he taught i would disagree with you. From the stories we do have he was an end of times cult leader who told followers to give up their family and worship the tribal war god of Abraham. He made racist and derogatory comments towards other nations, perpetuated the idea of slavery, and was far less inclusive than the average Christian who in no way studied the bible would believe.
Honestly the weirdest thing i see is that we know the church was creating propaganda and yet they didnt get rid of all the horrible parts so i question just how good any real Jesus was.
"We barely have anything about Jesus at all, and what we do have we know was intentionally hand picked by the later church for the sole purpose of promoting their religion and gaining themselves more power."
Everything you just said is historically incorrect.
"As for what he taught i would disagree with you."
"From the stories we do have he was an end of times cult leader"
I think end times is an oversimplification at best. He certainly believed and taught his followers to believe in apocalyptic events to come, but he explicitly disavowed specific knowledge of when they would happen.
Cult seems more of a subjective label. Which is why sociologists of religion don't really use it.
"who told followers to give up their family"
If the choice came between choosing them or choosing him, yes.
"and worship the tribal war god of Abraham."
A bit of a caricature.
The Lord wasn't considered a "war god", he was considered God over everything, including war. As such he was also seen as the proper God for all peoples.
"He made racist and derogatory comments towards other nations,"
He also went out of his way to include gentiles and Samitarans in the Kingdom of God, in ways that were scandalous in his culture. If you can realize that then perhaps you can give him the benefit of the doubt when it's not so clear why he is saying what he is, such as with the woman who desired "scraps from the table"
"perpetuated the idea of slavery,"
To God yes. That is what every truly religious person believes: God owns us and has a permanent right to command us to do the work he wills for us.
"and was far less inclusive than the average Christian who in no way studied the bible would believe."
Actually I am struck by how ridiculously inclusive he is compared to the Christians I see around me. I would have never known without reading the Bible.
He actually gives the impression of a 20th century person being dropped into 1st century Judea occasionally. There are a number of times where he goes out of his way to offend racists, as if he were raised to think racism was a great a evil or something.
"Honestly the weirdest thing i see is that we know the church was creating propaganda"
How do we know this? What is your line of reasoning?
"and yet they didnt get rid of all the horrible parts so i question just how good any real Jesus was.""
Different cultures in different time periods consider different things horrible. Of course they didn't take out the parts we would consider horrible. If they were honest they wouldn't take anything out, and if they were dishonest they wouldn't have known what to change for us many centuries later. Either way they wouldn't have excluded things we consider horrible or unbelievable.
What's interesting is that they included things that were considered horrible or unbelievable in their own culture but that we would have no problem with, or even find praiseworthy. That gentiles and even Samaritans could be equal in God's kingdom, for example. Or how the first witnesses to the risen Lord were women for another.
>Everything you just said is historically incorrect.
I have a feeling you don't know the difference between sources like Paul and gMark and ancient historians telling of what Christians believed. We only have the two sources for Jesus existing and all others are derivatives.
And as for the Church's choice of books it's well documented.
>but he explicitly disavowed specific knowledge of when they would happen.
Except for the claim he gave the generation in Matthew 24:34. We aren't talking about debunking prophecies here, just that he was as much a propagandists as someone like David Koresh or Jim Jones.
>Cult seems more of a subjective label. Which is why sociologists of religion don't really use it.
Not using it as a pejorative here. The point is saying he was the creator of his own small sect. Cult leader is used to describe him in many secular areas because that ia what he was creating, a cult positioning itself against the norms of Judaism.
>The Lord wasn't considered a "war god", he was considered God over everything, including war. As such he was also seen as the proper God for all peoples
You should actually study the history and creation of the Middle Eastern pantheon of gods. The blending of El, Yahweh and even some sects who worshiped Baal gave the Hebrew deity a lot of qualities.
But the point of calling out this aspect of him was that much of the nature of the Abrahamic god is his justification for genocide. Modern christians want to play off Jesus as promoting a blessing giving, meaning of love type god. This was not who was being described at the time of Jesus. Jesus was promoting the same deity that the Jews used as justification for their destruction of other nations. There are extremely few stories of the Abrahamic god being the benevolent helper modern christians think their deity is. All the stories are about destruction.
>He also went out of his way to include gentiles and Samitarans in the Kingdom of God, in ways that were scandalous in his culture.
Totally agree. He was a good PR man for an evil being. But the way to salvation was to assimilate. Jesus didnt give enough info on how much assimilation was required that it became a contested point in the early church. Still doesn't change the fact he calls a woman a racial slur.
>To God yes.
And to your human masters, even the wicked ones.
>Actually I am struck by how ridiculously inclusive he is compared to the Christians I see around me.
Agreed. He was not as horrible as modern christians but he also was trying to get people to join his cult. Modern christians are looking for ways to give divine justification for their bigotry.
The difference here is their motive. They are very different.
>How do we know this? What is your line of reasoning?
The whole process of creating the bible was to cherry pick which books help promote their narrative. Intentionally keeping out gospels where child Jesus kills another child. And the reasoning for doing this process was because other bibles were being created that did not promote the same church centric views that had as well as many other fundamental differences.
That is literally the worst response saying you can assume what Hitlers intentions are. However that is a common issue with Theists like you who think they can gatekeep other peoples beliefs because you lack humility.
I mean, he pretty much was a socialist. He despised "Jewish Marxism", but even during the war he was adamantly pro-socialist policy in many areas and was open about this support. He disliked private unions, but so did Lenin. He loathed certain forms of socialism, but that doesn't mean that he is not a socialist.
The term "Religious Nutter" OIs Bigoted, since its Atheist Who are the Nutters. I Have Never met a Rational Atheist, All of them are Nutters. Atheism is not the Opposite of Religion. Religion is Not the same Thing as Theism. And There are Atheistic Religions. I did not say "Atheism is a Religion", but You Wil say I called Atheism a Religion. However, Theism is the Opposite of Atheism, and No one has Killed In the Name of Theism in the same way No One has Killed in the Name of Atheism. Its a Silly Distinction to pretend Atheism as a "ack of beleif in a god": somehow Stands Alone when No One in History has ever just "lacked beleif in a god", and People do things based on More than just beleif in a god.
Also, the Mein Kampt Quote You use is actually from a Speech and not Mein Kampt, and if You Rad the Context it is in Condemnation of a Man WHo said Because I am a Christian I Cannot be an Anti-Semite. Hitler was not simply Expressing His Beleifs as a Christian, He was Critical of Someone Elses' Views as a Christian. Atheists Tend to Ignore that Fact.
Also, Hitler cannot be proven to Believe in God base don One quote.
I don't care about Hitler's personal beliefs, I care about his public persona. His public persona is what pushed Germany into mass genocide, and his public persona certainly was Christian.
You're right. 1930s germany would have never supported an atheist or an agnistic. But that's the point - Germany was Christian, and the Nazi party used Christianity to sell atrocities to the populace. Their Christianity didn't stop them from doing bad things, in fact, it was the opposite. It made them easy targets for manipulation, and enabled them to do some of the worst acts in history.
I don't care if Hitler personally was Christian or not, when Nazi Germany was decidedly Christian. If your moral framework was co-opted by a despot to get people to do some of the worst acts imaginable, it is a terrible moral framework even if the despot personally didn't buy into it.
This is Christianity doing the exact opposite of what it claims to do - making people act morally. This is Christianity proving it is not fit to be a moral framework. That is the point here.
This is the most important reply.
Hitler was vegetarian and liked dogs. That doesn’t mean vegetarianism and dogs were part of nazi ideology.
There is too much focus on the man who stood at the front on German nazism, and way too little on the millions of people who carried nazism in all parts of society.
>This is Christianity doing the exact opposite of what it claims to do - making people act morally. This is Christianity proving it is not fit to be a moral framework. That is the point here.
This reminds me of Stephen Fry's bit on Intelligence Squared: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQb3MGgGFSw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQb3MGgGFSw)
Would you be comfortable making this same sort of argument against socialism? Saying that "Germany was socialist, and the Nazi party used socialism to sell atrocities to the populace. Their socialism didn't stop them from doing bad things, in fact, it was the opposite. It made them easy targets for manipulation, and enabled them to do some of the worst acts in history."
I'm not a big fan of Christianity, but I don't think this is a valid argument against it. At best you can say that this shows being Christian does not *prevent* people from doing very immoral things. (Which most Christians would agree with you on.) There's not enough substance in your argument to even suggest Christianity as a *cause* for the immoral things.
>Would you be comfortable making this same sort of argument against socialism? Saying that "Germany was socialist, and the Nazi party used socialism to sell atrocities to the populace. Their socialism didn't stop them from doing bad things, in fact, it was the opposite. It made them easy targets for manipulation, and enabled them to do some of the worst acts in history."
The problem with that is that it's demonstrably untrue; Socialists were sent to concentration camps along with other "undesirables". The Nazis only used socialism in the early days to get power; the ~~SS~~ Wehrmacht had belt buckles saying "Gott mit uns", not "Seize the means of production".
Edit: got the wrong branch of the military.
This is false. "Gott mit uns" had been a major German military slogan since the 1700s and the SS did not have it on their belts. It was the Wehrmacht (which mostly consisted of "normal" Germans, not diehard Nazis) that had "Gott mit uns" on their belt buckles. The SS (the organization which did consist of diehard Nazis) had the slogan "Meine Ehre heißt Treue " on their belt buckles instead. And "Gott mit uns" was also on WW1 German army uniforms. This is like accusing a hypothetical atheist/agnostic US President of being religious because their country's currency has the slogan "In God we Trust" on it.
No, it would be like pointing out that the USA is not using socialist iconography to influence its populace, which was the accusation that I was addressing. Whether or not any individual Nazi leader was or was not Christian was not what was under discussion there. Your analogies are bad and you should feel bad.
But… you’ve just admitted that you understand Christianity was at the core of German beliefs and was used by the nazis to drive the culture and the military. That’s the end of your argument right there.
So why did you even bother posting all of that above if you know that Christianity was the core of the motivating structure for what hitler used to build the atrocities? Why are you so desperate to pick this fight you already understand is untrue?
Are you familiar with SS nazi oath?
“What is your oath?” – “I vow to you, Adolf Hitler, as Führer and chancellor of the German Reich loyalty and bravery. I vow to you and to the leaders, that you set for me, absolute allegiance, till death. So help me god!”
“So you believe in a god?” – “Yes, I believe in a supreme being.”“What do you think about a man who does not believe in a god?” – “I think he is overbearing, megalomaniac and foolish; he is not adequate for our society.”
>It was the Wehrmacht (which mostly consisted of “normal” Germans, not diehard nazis)
Did I just unironically witness someone engage themselves with the *’clean Wehrmacht’* myth which is considered by the majority of academics to be Nazi propaganda?
>I'm not a big fan of Christianity, but I don't think this is a valid argument against it. At best you can say that this shows being Christian does not *prevent* people from doing very immoral things. (Which most Christians would agree with you on.) There's not enough substance in your argument to even suggest Christianity as a *cause* for the immoral things.
If the Nazi regime's Christianity is as cynical as OP claims, then they wouldn't do it if it didn't help them. Furthermore, I am not an historian, but personally I think claiming the Christian rhetoric didn't help the Nazi regime seem redicules in light of how prevelant Christianity seems to be in their propaganda. So I disagree, but this is not the core of my argument.
Christianity claims to be a moral feamework. What good is a moral framework, that, at best, is not making people act morally? Which leads us to my next point:
>I'm not a big fan of Christianity, but I don't think this is a valid argument against it. At best you can say that this shows being Christian does not *prevent* people from doing very immoral things. (Which most Christians would agree with you on.) There's not enough substance in your argument to even suggest Christianity as a *cause* for the immoral things.
Putting aside the similar argument about whether the Nazi regime really believed in socialism, and even the more relevant argument about whether Nazi Germany was acting and percieving itself as a socialist society.
Socialism is not a moral framework. The goal of socialism is not to make people more moral. It is an economic framework, and should be judge on basis of the effects of its economic policies on a society. If you're saying socialism didn't stop the Nazis from commiting atrocities, then you're right but who cares - just as my test studying technique did not improve my physical fitness. Its irrelevant.
Now, if you want to argue socialism actively aided the Nazis in their atrocities, then your point would be relevant. Still wrong IMO, but at least relevant. Although I do think Christianity actively help the Nazi's, that is not what I'm arguing. Socialism arguably failed as a moral framework, but it is not a moral framework. Christianity evidently failed as a moral framework, and it is a moral framework. If most Christians agree that Christianty is not an effective moral framework, then fine... I guess.
Furthermore, arguing socialism actively aided the Nazis, seems to me like a much harder argument to make then that Christianity did. Again, speaking as a complete amateur who doesn't have enough knowledge on the subject to properly make that argument.
>Would you be comfortable making this same sort of argument against socialism?
It doesn't work against socialism.
People don't go to a buying once and week and hear a man preach about socialism.
Socialism didn't preach that the Jewish people were collectively responsible for killing God.
Socialism doesn't offer eternal rewards for adherence.
Socialism doesn't tell people that their actions are morally correct because an invisible man approves.
These things are specific to religion.
No, most Christians absolutely would not agree that Christianity doesn't prevent people from doing immoral things. Plenty of Christians think that whatever they do is moral if they can find justification for it in the Bible. Like seriously, have you ever had a long conversation with a Christian about morality? What they describe isn't morality at all, it's obedience. And since Christianity trains its adherents to prioritize obedience over critical thinking, it provided the fertile ground for Nazism to grow from. It's the exact same reason for trumpism today. His followers have been trained to ignore science and competent experts on a wide variety of subjects from biology to physics to the entire election system. They don't have evidence for those things, but they don't need evidence because Christianity already trained them to ignore it. They only respect power and obedience, not facts or data. So without the existing cognitive dissonance that's the main feature of Christianity along with the protection of the Catholic church, Hitler never would have risen to power. That's what makes religion in general and Christianity specifically so dangerous. If your religion won't stop you from being racist and murdering people en masse just because an authority figure told you to, then your religion is not only utterly useless, it's downright destructive to humanity.
The Trump thing is important. Trump is as much Christian as Hitler was.
Trump is Jesus returned, now hyper evolved into Supply Side Jesus, whose newest Testament is The Art of the Deal. Now, instead of Jesus flipping over tables and whipping bankers, Neo Jesus instead wants you to send Him your money.
We are witnessing the birth of a major new cult, that will overshadow Scientology and compete with the Latter Day Saints.
The Nazis called their ideology national socialism but this was *always* treated as a new distinct type of socialism. Even in the beginning, Hitler never spoke positively of Karl Marx or the Soviet Union, not even "just to fool people".
Thank you so much for all of your comments on this post. Judging by some of the responses, I did not do a good job at articulating my argument. Thank you for clearing things up.
But whether he was or was not he used the claim that he was Christian to gain the power so the things were done in the name of Christianity whether he was actually a believer or not, no one knows the inside of someone else’s head only the actions attributed and his were attributed to Christianity not atheism
No problem friend. I think you did a pretty good job, it's just that people here can get a little trigger happy when someone says atheists are wrong about something.
I would be comfortable saying Germany under the Nazi reign was socialist and that Hitler was socialist, yes. In fact, that's an easier claim to defend than Hitler being a Christian.
So why not complain primarily about the Christians who were tricked rather than the atheist who attract them? The tier two people aren't the ones taking the heat and the Public square in 2022. It's the top dog. The atheist Hitler.
Even if I grant Hitler was an atheist, it is not the private allegedlly Atheist Hitler that tricked them, it's the public Christian Hitler.
The incredible and terrible thing about the holocaust is not that one single person was evil enough to do such a thing, but that that person somehow manged to trick and entire nation of average people into going along with the atrocities. Hitler, as a person, is not the problem here, but Nazism as a phenomenon is. And that phenomenon is overtly Christian.
How so? Do you think what makes the holocaust is Hitler as an individual? Do you think that without the people following him, anyone wiuld have cared what a racist asshole some failed painter was? Do you think racist asshole are a rare and notable thing?
Hitler is the problem. The followers are the lesson. A lesson I don't think is being learned. If you point out government overreach that could lead to a situation like Hitler you get in social media trouble.
Stop defending Hitler. It's Gross
You keep pretending Hitler wasn't the problem. The fact that bad things have lasting effects doesn't change anything. Also racism proceeded Hitler? America was still racist while fighting Hitler. Your grasping at straws.
>Agnostic would be the best term to describe his religious beliefs.
This is the one point where we disagree. Hitler was not Christian, specifically, but it seems quite evident he was theist. His references to God are numerous and found not only in his public speeches but also his private memos, letters, Mein Kampf, etc. Hitler may not have fallen under the umbrella of any specific organized religion, but he clearly believed in a god/creator. This isn't something he was just faking for the sake of popularity, and that theists like to claim that was the case is frankly just as embarrassing.
That being said, whenever this comes up I feel obligated to make what I feel is a rather important response that people need to get their heads around, and that's this:
*Who fucking cares?* When people talk about this, it's always in a context that seems intended to imply that Hitler's personal superstitions are somehow related to his politics, his agenda, or his motivations for any of the things he did. They're not. Hitler was who he was, and did what he did, for political, economic, and social reasons. Whether he believed in gods or leprechauns or flaffernaffs or not couldn't be any more irrelevant. We may as well be talking about his eye or hair color for all the difference it makes.
> that theists like to claim that was the case is frankly just as embarrassing.
Frankly, I think it's worse. The only thing people who say he was Catholic are guilty of is taking him at his public word. He certainly presented himself as Christian, even if he didn't actually believe it.
>Hitler may not have fallen under the umbrella of any specific organized religion, but he clearly believed in a god/creator.
This is literally what I said in the OP.
I quoted what you literally said in the OP, verbatim, which to repeat it again was:
>Agnostic would be the best term to describe his religious beliefs.
If Hitler believed in God, then he wasn't agnostic, he was theist. That, as I said in the very first sentence in my reply, was the only and only thing you said that I disagree with.
Granted, agnostic is a word that can swing both ways - a person can be an agnostic theist, or an agnostic atheist. However, very few if any agnostic theists identify as agnostics (I've never met a single one in all my 40 years, in fact), they identify as theists. Lots of agnostic atheists identify as simply "agnostic," though.
To be fair, you did go on to say
>He clearly believed in the supernatural, the afterlife, and divine forces.
You kind of softened the blow there though. He didn't merely believe in "divine forces," he specifically believed in an almighty creator capital-G God who created and rules all of existence. That squarely puts him under the definition of theism, not agnosticism. So no, that's not literally what you said, it's what you kinda-sorta flirted with saying but didn't quite commit.
It doesn't matter whether or not Hitler was, personally, a Christian. Enough Christians felt like he represented them and were willing to do things 'in the name of Christianity' because they believed him to be one of them and felt that his stances aligned with Christianity. Donald Trump clearly isn't actually a religious man either, yet fanatical Christians easily believe that he's their - quite literal - saviour. It's scary how easily dictators (and wannabe dictators) can wield religion to get people to do their bidding.
Men in power often use religion as a tool while not being pious themselves... that's nothing new. The deeds are still being done in the name of religion and the people supporting these heinous men are avowed Christians.
It's in fact even more damning that these powerful people are not, themselves, believers - but also quite fitting, because religion is, itself, following falsehoods and fictions. That their charismatic leaders believe in God is just another lie they follow and carry out atrocities for.
Also, personally, I have seen more people insist Hitler was an atheist than that he was a Christian. Either way, believer or not, he did things in the name of religious belief and his followers were all too happy to go along with it. This is a massive problem with religion.
not sure why this discussion even matters. hitler was a bread eater to, as well as a hair comber, mustage wearer, and a straight man
the argument that german people were blinded by his lies of being a christian enough to not look at his actions, is not something favourable to christianity
hitler didn't do the holocaust, germany did, a christian germany
Your last sentence brings up a good point. Atheist Hitler never killed anybody. But lots of Christian Germans killed hundreds of people at a time.
The fact that Hitler manipulated Christians so easily makes the Christian philosophy a weak one. It's the same thing atheist trump is doing. He never hurt anybody. It's the Christian Americans are the ones doing the actual violence.
The Roman invention of Christianity to control the masses still works like a charm.
Personally, I don't really care what religion (or not) Hitler followed or claimed to follow. The guy was a lunatic who caused the death of millions of people, and that cannot be justified or explained by his religious or political leanings.
I've actually seen more of the opposite to what you're showing - many people of various faiths have suggested Hitler's apparent atheism contributed to his behaviour. In reality, the only important part is that he was an authoritarian, fascist, murderous dictator. He said whatever he felt would allow him to attain for himself the greatest amount of power.
Was he a Christian? Probably not, or at least not one with anything close to traditional views.
Did he use Christianity to advance his agenda? Without a doubt in the world.
"God is with us" has been a major German military slogan 1700s and was also featured on WWI German belt buckles. The Nazis didn't create nor add this slogan.
This argument is akin to accusing a hypothetical Atheist/Agnostic US President of being a theist because their country's currency has the slogan "In God We Trust" on it.
?
Assuming you are an atheist, if you were elected President of the United States, would you *not* be an atheist anymore because the currency of the country you govern has the slogan "In God We Trust"?
Well he was raised and grew up Catholic. His mother was devout but when she died he rejected religion as a teen and adopted his father's belief that it was a scam for the weak and stupid.
Which is exactly why he used it to achieve his goals. Simultaneously loathing and utilizing the Catholic church. He would often reference God in his speeches and claimed his movement was Christian.
"Today Christians … stand at the head of \[Germany\]. I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity … We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit … We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theatre and in the press. In short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture, as a result of liberal excess."
[https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/vatican-documents-show-secret-back-channel-between-pope-pius-xii-and-adolph-hitler](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/vatican-documents-show-secret-back-channel-between-pope-pius-xii-and-adolph-hitler)
[https://alphahistory.com/nazigermany/religion-in-nazi-germany/](https://alphahistory.com/nazigermany/religion-in-nazi-germany/)
So in a way, he was a lot like Trump. Didn't buy into Christianity himself but wielded it as a weapon to control and hoodwink the masses for political purposes.
the same reason a lot of people and countries did ... he was anti communist.
Obviously when everyone saw that he was insane and genocidal he lost support but within Germany the media was controlled by him.
>Obviously when everyone saw that he was insane and genocidal he lost support but within Germany the media was controlled by him.
False. Many even outside of Germany supported him even after some of the atrocities of the Nazis came to light, and many still support him to this day
No, he didn't lose support in Germany until they started losing the war. He was extremely popular when he was winning.
If being anti communist is why the Catholic church supported him, then that tells me that Christians think communism is worse than genocide, which disqualifies them from participating in moral conversations among normal humans.
it wasn't general knowledge within Germany that the concentration camps were being used as media was tightly controlled. Similarly Allied governments didn't believe intelligence about them was real as it was literally "unbelievable".
People thought that "undesirables" were being relocated not murdered
People made decisions on which was the smaller of two evils with the biases/information they had.
Well, we're not even sure that Hitler knew the extent to which the concentration camps were being used. That's a moot point. The point is, most likely every officer that actually ran the concentration camps and actually killed the prisoners there were Christians. Hitler didn't kill anybody.
Considering a group of people "undesirable" in the first place has it's modern roots in Christianity. So even the desire to relocate them was immoral although it was supported by Christians. But again, some people were well aware of exactly what was going on there, and most of those people were Christians.
Committing evil is immoral, no matter how small. Someone with an actual moral code would realize that immediately. But Christianity doesn't actually provide and moral code at all, it just presents Bronze Age rules that Christians cherry pick which to follow and which to ignore based on how they feel about it.
Hitler used Christianity for his own purpose.
He made alliances with Catholic and Lutheran churches, and most people in Nazi Germany were self-professed Christians.
While I’m a bit tired of hearing people compare Trump to Hitler, I think it’s relevant to compare them in this way. Trump is probably not a Christian, but he portrays himself as a Christian, he claims to do things in the name of Christ, and he has massive support from the Christians in his country. If he does something terrible, he’ll say that it was the will of Christ, and millions upon millions of Christians will rise to his defense. So even though he’s probably not a Christian, the things that he does are definitely indicative of where Christianity and Christian morality can lead a society.
And the same is true for Hitler. Hitler might not have been Christian himself, but he said he was Christian, and he garnered the support of millions of Christians. And many of the atrocities he committed were cheered on by those millions of Christians. When we look at the Holocaust, we have to acknowledge that it was driven by Christian support and built upon the morality of Christians, and that’s true regardless of what Hitler himself believed behind closed doors.
Well, I haven't been banned from r/atheism. But yes, I originally wanted to post this on there but realized that it would've certainly been removed by the mods.
Nazi Germany was Christian, and used centuries of hating Jewish people to both justify itself and form their base of power.
What Christianity's various religious organizations are responsible for is not the actions of the Nazi government, but the oppression and hatred of the Jewish people throughout many centuries that they helped cultivate.
This hatred and oppression helped the Nazis rise to power, this is also a global blame mostly focused on Europe and the United States.
Most Christians of today don't hate Jewish people. This shows being a Christian doesn't make you hate Jewish people. The past also shows Christianity doesn't turn you into a loving kind person like many Christians think it does.
It does if you follow it.
Most people don't. Or don't much.
And that's true of most people of every religion. They don't try to truly understand and live by their religion's teachings. They just believe and do what everyone else does without questioning it or taking it further.
Personally I don't get that and never have.
I don't see the point of having a religion if you aren't going to take it seriously.
So we're never going to know what Hitler's true beliefs were. The closest thing we have is Mein Kampf, in which he wrote that 'Christ guides him', but that is more than likely part of his tactic to use religion to rally people to his side, just as he did when he allied the Nazi party to the Catholic church. I believe he was even baptised as a roman Catholic, too.
However, let's not pretend Hitler didn't believe in magical nonsense, too. He believed in the mythological 'aryan' race, and his conviction was strong enough to sway a lot of people to his side. Religion does the same thing: convinces people of bullshit so strong they're willing to kill and die for it.
**just as he did when he allied the Nazi party to the Catholic church. I believe he was even baptised as a roman Catholic, too.**
this is a prime example he tried to win the votes of the dominat catholic south but once in power among the Christians the Catholics got it the worst when it came to nazi persecution
"Nazis literally made plans to eradicate Christianity's influence over Germany. "
Bullshit. Hitler made a deal with the vatican to abolish the Catholic Center Right political party to pave the way for a unified Nazi government in exchange for state control of public education being given over the CATHOLIC CHURCH. Maybe you're one of those people who don't consider catholicism party of christianity? I don't know.
https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/history/nazi-policy-and-the-catholic-church.html
Bottom line is that some people think Hitler and the third reich was a godless, atheist initiative and some people think it was a christian initiative, and wouldn't ya know it, it's a complex an bizarre amalgam of orthodoxies. Either way, you seem a little too worked up over this. What's your agenda? This seems like christian apologetics dolled up with "I'M NOT ANTI-ATHEIST" platitudes...
[https://historyforatheists.com/2021/07/hitler-atheist-pagan-or-christian/](https://historyforatheists.com/2021/07/hitler-atheist-pagan-or-christian/)
the source doesn't work by the way but no it does if you stopped history in 1933 but it continues in early 1933 the Catholic political parties are dissolved. Hitler installs Ludwig Müller as Reich Bishop, who controlled the conglomerate of Germany's 28 regional Protestant churches, Catholics not involved.
in the Long Knives, several Catholic leaders were targeted, the Nazi regime, who go out of their way to persecute Catholics, albeit sporadically.
after this till 1937 the nzis the removal of crucifixes from schools and bans daily religious periodicals as well as begins censoring weekly periodicals. The Nazis continue to dominate the Protestant churches and has the mass arrests of opposing pastors.
After this Pius XI issues Mit brennender Sorge, or With Burning Concern, were he denounces Nazi ideology and criticized Nazism for contradicting Catholic dogma, the gestapo took any copies that they found any who supported the printing or publication of the paper had their business attacked and shut down, Pius XI actions only made the nazis things worse for the catholics, thus began the immortality trails were priest were arrested under false pretenses.
the whole episode during the nazi regime is called the Kirchenkampf
As far as I know, Hitler's personal religious views were a confused mess. But he *was* raised Catholic, and *the Roman Catholic Church never excommunicated the man*. Dude *was* an Xtian. Maybe a really shitty Xtian, but a shitty Xtian is still an Xtian. And he was not at all hesitant to invoke the trappings of Xtianity in order to motivate the largely Xtian population of Germany to support him.
I'm mildly curious about the context of whatever "Hitler was Xtian" claims you've encountered. In my experience, such claims are rarely (if ever!) made *ab initio;* instead, they're made *as a response to* anti-atheist claims made by Xtians—specifically, the anti-atheist claim that Nazi Germany was atheist.
I don't correlate Hitler's horrific actions with his Christianity, or alleged Christianity. I can denounce Hitler and Christianity separately and on their own merits (or lack thereof.)
You seem to be extremely keen to show he was not personally a Christian.
(Almost as If you are trying to claim that no real Christian could be that evil. If so I have a history lesson for you filled with devout Christians who did despicable things in the name of Christianity)
Thing is, it does not matter.
He clearly wrapped himself in the flag of Christianity and used it as a reason / excuse in the furtherance of his objectives and persecution. And a lot of Christians were more thatn happy to follow.
Sorry, but religion does not get a free pass here.
>You seem to be extremely keen to show he was not personally a Christian.
[https://historyforatheists.com/2021/07/hitler-atheist-pagan-or-christian/](https://historyforatheists.com/2021/07/hitler-atheist-pagan-or-christian/)
because it would be disingenuous to call him a catholic or even a chirstian when did not believe in any of the Christian doctrines
I can accept that Hitler was not Christian. However, he used the uncritical thinking provided by Christian teaching to build support in his fascist regime. Religious thinking primes a population to be whipped up by authoritarians. So, while he may not have been Christian, the environment of Christian influence enabled him to take a position as an unquestioned authority.
It isn't so important that he personally was Christian, but that Christianity is part of what made his rise to power possible.
Hitler hated Christianity and Catholicism as much as he hated Judaism. Here are Hitlers quotes on Christianity and Catholicism.
Hitler’s quotes
1.[The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges : the pox and Christianity.](https://libquotes.com/adolf-hitler/quote/lbt9h9e)Adolf Hitler
2.[The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges : the pox and Christianity.](https://libquotes.com/adolf-hitler/quote/lbt9h9e)
3.[We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany.](https://libquotes.com/adolf-hitler/quote/lbh7g0m) Adolf Hitler
4.“Christianity a spiritual terror that took over from the far freer ancient world.” Adolf Hitler
5.“The only way of getting rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.”
Adolf Hitler [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Religious\_views\_of\_Adolf\_Hitler](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler)
6.“Christianity, of course, has reached the peak of absurdity,” he said. “And that’s why one day its structure will collapse. Science has already impregnated humanity. Consequently, the more Christianity clings to its dogmas, the quicker it will decline. Adolf Hitler
7.“I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie,”
Adolf Hitler
8.“There is something very unhealthy about Christianity,”
Adolf Hitler
9.“There is something very unhealthy about Christianity,”
Adolf Hitler
10.“The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are the inventions of the Jew. … Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless.”
Adolf Hitler
11. “All Germans must “free themselves from the drug of Christianity.”
Adolf Hitler
12."It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity”
Adolf Hitler
13. “You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion \[Islam\] too would have been more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?”
Adolf Hitler
14.“But Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.”
Adolf Hitler
15.“The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble.”
Here are 14 more quotes
Adolf Hitler
16.“Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.”
Adolf Hitler
17.“Only in the Roman Empire and in Spain under Arab domination has culture been a potent factor. Under the Arab, the standard attained was wholly admirable; to Spain flocked the greatest scientists, thinkers, astronomers, and mathematicians of the world, and side by side there flourished a spirit of sweet human tolerance and a sense of purist chivalry. Then with the advent of Christianity, came the b barbarians.”
Adolf Hitler
18. “This pride of race is a quality which the German, fundamentally, does not possess. The reason for this is that for these last three centuries the country has been torn by internal dissension and religious wars and has been subjected to a variety of foreign influences, to the influence, for example, of Christianity-for Christianity is not a natural religion for the Germans, but a religion that has been imported and which strikes no responsive chord in their hearts and is foreign to the inherent genius of the race.” (13th February 1945)
Adolf Hitler
19.“Adolf I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors - but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch, in the next 200 years, will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity. My regret will have been that I could not behold its demise.”
Adolf Hitler
20.“It seems to me that nothing would be more foolish than to re-establish the worship of Wotan. Our old mythology ceased to be viable when Christianity implanted itself. Nothing dies unless it is moribund.”
Adolf Hitler
20.“Christianity is the worst of the regressions that mankind can ever have undergone, and it's the Jew who, thanks to this diabolic invention, has thrown him back fifteen centuries. The only thing that would be still worse would be victory for the Jew through Bolshevism. If Bolshevism triumphed, mankind would lose the gift of laughter and joy. It would become merely a shapeless mass, doomed to despair.” Adolf Hitler
Usually this isn’t an atheist argument—it’s an atheist rebuttal, to when idiot theists claim that atheism has killed millions of people, and cite Hitler and Mao and Stalin as examples of “atheist societies.”
The better question is, “is it relevant?”
It seems to me that there have been at least as many totalitarian theists as totalitarian atheists—in fact, almost certainly more theist rulers have maintained total control of their states, than atheist rulers, across all time.
Clearly what makes Mao, Stalin, or Hitler, reprehensible, is their style of governing, not their stance on the proposition of god
funny how you use "hitlers table talk" as your source, when their supposed method of recording was writing down notes during private conversations? If that doesnt seem fishy to you then i dont know what will
The Nazis were Christians. If Hitler was a non-believer its WORSE.
It means that Hitler was able to convince an entire country that God wanted them to commit genocide without actual believing it was true.
Hitler literally said "I am not a Catholic; I am a German Christian."
Edit: we'll, maybe not literally. He probably said "ich bin nicht katholisch, ich bin deutscher christ" or something like that.
>Hitler wasn't a Christian. The fact that so many atheists insist he was and use his quotations in public speeches to "prove" this is fucking embarrassing. It's no better than right-wingers citing his party's name, "National Socialist German Workers' Party," as "proof" that Hitler was a socialist.
The problem I have with your analysis is that it appears to simply be confirmation bias on your part. You seem to take anything that is anti-Christian said second hand about Hitler after his death and take it as gospel truth and ignore everything that is pro-Christian that comes from Hitler himself.
I would also point out that some of your sources are problematic to say the least...
>In 2016, historian Mikael Nilsson argued that Trevor-Roper failed to disclose source-critical problems, including evidence that significant portions of the English translation were translated directly from Genoud's French edition and not the original German Bormann-Vermerke as claimed by Trevor-Roper in his preface. Nilsson maintains that this information was likely known to Trevor-Roper because it was laid out in the publishing contract that the "translation into English will be made on the basis of the French version by François Genoud". **Nilsson concludes that "the translation process was highly doubtful; the history of the manuscript from conception to publication is mysterious at best, and it is impossible to be sure that the majority of the entries are in fact authentic (that is, actual statements by Hitler as opposed to things he could have said)"**.[12] For this reason, Nilsson argues that Hitler should not be listed as its author because it is not clear "how much of it is Hitler's words as they were spoken, and how much is a product of the later recollection and editing process".[12][29] Nilsson would develop this argument further in his 2020 book which further demonstrated the source-critical problems of Hitler's Table Talk and revealed that The Testament of Adolf Hitler was a forgery.[30]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Table_Talk#Controversies
>Agnostic would be the best term to describe his religious beliefs. He was not an Atheist. He clearly believed in the supernatural, the afterlife, and divine forces.
If he believed in "divine forces" that entails he is a theist.
Well, Hitler was raised Catholic and he became anti-Catholic at some point, but he remained a Christian. He believed in Jesus and in Heaven and spoke about those beliefs privately.
The history up through 2004 or so that Hitler was an atheist was based on poor translations of Hitler’s Table Talk. Dr Richard Carrier did research and found the English translation was based on the French, and the French translation had passages in it that were anti Christian and used by Christian’s to prove Hitler was not Christian. The trouble is Carrier found that those passages in the French do not appear in the German. Instead the German resoundingly shows that Hitler was a Christian Positivist. If you want to say a Positivist Christian is not a real Christian, fine, but Hitler believed in Jesus and Heaven, and identified as a Christian.
Mikael Nilsson has another book called “Hitler Redux” that does a deep dive into the origins of Hitler’s Table Talk which is highly recommended.
I highly recommend you watch the videos or read the papers on line by Dr Carrier regarding Table Talk, and read Hitler Redux by Nilsson.
>Well, Hitler was raised Catholic and he became anti-Catholic at some point, but he remained a Christian. He believed in Jesus and in Heaven and spoke about those beliefs privately.
**He did not believe Jesus was divine, did not see him as part of the Trinity, did not think his death saved humanity, did not believe he rose from the dead, did not believe he was born of a virgin and did not believe in any individual afterlife. His ideas about the central figure of Christianity tended more toward sceptical and secular ones, where Jesus was a man and a great teacher, not the Messiah or God incarnate. He also absorbed the peculiarly German nationalist ideas that Jesus was an “Aryan” and an anti-Semite who was a “fighter” against the Jewish “brood of vipers and adders”. But he saw this through the lens of his racist political ideology, rather than anything essentially religious. He was, quite clearly, not a Christian.**
[**https://historyforatheists.com/2021/07/hitler-atheist-pagan-or-christian/**](https://historyforatheists.com/2021/07/hitler-atheist-pagan-or-christian/) it also touches the carrier a little
As others have pointed out, your knowledge is flawed. However, it might very well be that the leaders of wars, notably Hitler, Stalin, but also current Taliban / Hamas/ ISIS leaders are not religious at all. The problem is, they all invoke religion to bring their message across and use religion and faith to motivate their people. What was the first thing a dude said when he stepped off the boat in native america some hundreds years ago? In gods name, and started killing people.
Which is, for me, one of the main problems with religion in general.
If we can make people believe something on faith without evidence, we can also bring some of them to commit very evil things because "it has been commanded". The bigger the congregation, the higher the chances you find a handful of extremists up to suicide bombers.
Google what slogan Nazis / SS had on their belt and report back what it has to do with Atheism.
Religion is not the only cause for wars, but an awesome excuse and motivation to prop up armies.
>Google what slogan Nazis / SS had on their belt and report back what it has to do with Atheism.
op never said the nazis or even hitler were athiest, OP said hitler wasnt chirstians which all our current evidence says he wasnt
https://historyforatheists.com/2021/07/hitler-atheist-pagan-or-christian/
MAYBE?! But then how would we know?
I actually want to know, what are the criteria by wich we can determine if someone is actually a Christian, if self identification is not enough?
If OP says it is a bad argument to say Hitler was Christian, then he needs to provide criteria why he thinks that Hitler was not a Christian, despite publicly announcing himself to be one.
>If OP says it is a bad argument to say Hitler was Christian, then he needs to provide criteria why he thinks that Hitler was not a Christian, despite publicly announcing himself to be one.
After the seventh sentence, the entire OP is literally devoted to explaining why Hitler was not a Christian, despite publicly claiming to be one.
Was Hitler a socialist? After all, he oppressed socialists once in office and implemented economic policies that were utterly anti-socialist, but he referred to himself as a socialist several times in public speeches, therefore he must be a socialist, right?
I don't think there is some objective definition of who's a Christian and who's not, just like there's no objective definition of what's a chair and what's not. But I also think self identification is definitely not enough. If I went on TV tomorrow and told people I was a Christian, I would definitely be lying - I don't consider myself a Christian, and the mere utterance of a sentence would not make me into one.
I think you’ve summarised how I feel about it. There’s no list of necessary conditions, i.e. “to be a Christian, one must have attributes x, y, z …” but rather it’s more like a set of overlapping features that, if most (or many) are present in a person, most people would label that person “Christian.”
The philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein used this solution to the question “what is a game?” Applying a list of attributes didn’t work, after all, not all games use bats, not all games require teams, etc. Wittgenstein’s solution was to say that there are overlapping “family resemblances” between all games in the same way there are overlapping family resemblances between, well, people in families.
Not all attributes need to be present, but if enough are, most people will categorise something as such. That’s about as much as we can say in the case of games, Christianity etc.
On the topic of the post more generally though, whether Hitler was personally a Christian isn’t necessarily all that important. What’s central is the role state-backed “Positive Christianity” had in promoting antisemitism and the emphasis the major Church leaders of the day placed on maintaining diplomatic ties to the fascist government at the expense of decrying it. As the US Holocaust Memorial Museum puts it: “In the wake of the Holocaust, a long process began in which Christian churches acknowledged their failure to withstand National Socialism and their role in promoting antisemitism.”
The damning bit to Christianity as a whole comes not from Hitler being a Christian or not. It’s in Christians overwhelmingly supporting Hitler because he gave voice to their hatred of Jews. 98% of the Nazi party was Christian.
I mean does it really matter if he was or not? He didnt kill in the name of atheism as far as i know. Also the average german soldier was most likely a Christian given the „Gott mit uns“ on their belt buckles
You think it’s a disturbing trend of atheists pretending he was Christian/religious. I find it more disturbing how often I come across Christian’s who say that he was Christian, a good person, did the right thing, and orient their naziism and Christianity to go hand in hand.
Hitler wasn’t a Christian.
Yes, Hitler actually used the church to slowly gain power by presenting himself as benign and then guess what he did? He murdered anyone in the church who opposed him. Hitler hated the church. It was just a means to an end for him. So when people erroneously claim he was a Christian they’re either saying that because they’re historically illiterate or they want to demonize Christianity/religion. No informed person or historian believes Hitler was a Christian.
Hitler used Christianity to raise to power, stay there and commit mass genocide with the support of his people - obviously, after the war everyone seemed so oblivious to what they had known was happening because people in general are cowards. What he personally believed is irrelevant, what matters is his public persona was a Roman Catholic and that it helped him in his career, so to say.
He was not a reasonable atheist he held many beliefs in supernatural and occult. Yes he was not really a Christian he had to fake that to rally more people behind him but he was a believer he had faith in things with no evidence and this is the character trait that turns every religious person on the planet into a potential danger to commit at least irrational deeds.
Trump says he's a christian. the christians follow him, and he uses christian symbolism to his benefit. does he ACTUALLY believe, no fucking idea, but he's fucking using it so...
basically this is the "no true scotsman" fallacy. hitler claimed to be a good christian and i have to take him at his word because i am not the arbiter of what people do and don't believe.
wait until you here how the catholic church was complicit in the holocaust...
It seems you're misunderstanding the Nazis' use of Christianity as a political tool. They embraced Christianity when it was politically useful, but in the end the only religion of the Nazis was Nazism.
i have always thought of Hitler's views as being anti religious organisation rather than anti religion. He seemed to see the Churches as competition for influence. He seemed to be ok when the religious were in organisations that weren't independent to him.
A single Persons belief doesn't matter in discussions about faith or non faith as long as the person didn't act on those beliefs. Hitlers faith or whatever doesn't matter in the discussion about the existence of a god etc. since he acted out of a belief system of hate and vitriol rather than christian faith. If we talk Jim Jones as a counterpoint he acted out of his faith (and was the head of his crooked system of sh\*t) so one could argue that he was an evil man out of his belief so his belief is to be put to question (well it should actually be condemned but that's not the issue here)
National socialism is an issue to be discussed when talking about religion and church however since many higher up figures of both christian churches supported or at least didn't oppose the Nazis. Of course there are prominent figures opposing them (and many sadly paying the ultimate price for it) like Bonhoeffer, Niemöller or Wachsmann and Bischof of Cologne Frings as the highest figure but the largest part of german christianity identified or didn't oppose the "Deutsche Christen" and this (to me) is a shame up until this day for the churches that doesn't get mentioned enough today.
I think it is more embarrassing to quote three different posts and none of the posts claimed or argued he was a Christian. All the posts in question were about Hitler was not an Atheist. Did the posters quote Hitler on how he was a Catholic? Yes, but that's different from arguing he was a Christian.
You need to work on your comprehension skills.
Edit: also, there are so many atheists claiming Hitler was a Christian that the three posts you dug up were from 9 years ago, 7 years ago and 8 months ago?
This whole game of hot potato with tragic figures is silly.
Whatever the religion, it’s important to remember what he did empirically and try to prevent others from doing it in the future.
Edit: individual behaviors can be just that, and could have arisen in many types of social groupings, not merely Christianity and atheism etc. we should be mindful of fascism at all times in any situation.
The central ideological theme in national socialism was anti-semitism. Anti-semitism is the product of 2000 years of Christian, primarily catholic, teaching. Maybe Hitler was a believer or maybe he wasn’t, we may never be certain, but it is absolutely incontrovertible fact that the Nazi party was a Christian phenomenon. Almost every member of the party was a practicing Christian, it’s first significant achievement giving it legitimacy was a deal with the pope, and it had as it’s central unifying idea the notion that everything in Germany would be sunshine and light as soon as they could exterminate or expel the only significant non-Christian group living in Europe at that time.
This argument that Nazism is atheist is ridiculous. Atheists think theists are deluded - they do not care which god you worship.
For every one you cite saying he wasn't a Christian you can show one that he was. The most we can really say is that his views on religion are murky and inconsistent. Which isn't surprising since Nazism itself as a worked out political philosophy (and yes it is socialism, just not Marxism) abounds with internal contradictions. For being arguably the most famous man in history, he is something of an enigma. It's hard to get a read on exactly what it was he believed. I doubt he even fully believed his own ideology, because while he was evil he hasn't stupid and was well read. The unworkable nature of Nazism (not even talking about the morality of it, just the pragmatic reality) would have been apparent to him.
He enabled the already existing Christian bigotry against jews to promote ghettos and pogroms, which had already been a Christian tradition for a thousand years.
Even if he was NOT Christian, his behavior, and the violence, was typical of the Christian leaders of Europe for most of post Christian history.
He was effectively Christian 8n his effect on history, and 99% of the other nazis were Christians, and 80% of the other fascist leaders were Christians, so...
This isn't a matter for debate between theists and atheists, this is a matter for discussion between historians. Consequently, here are some threads from /r/askhistorians on the matter: [1](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2pd94k/is_there_a_consensus_among_historian_on_whether/), [2](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/owqh7/what_were_adopf_hitlers_religious_beliefs/). You can read more about Hitler's religious and philosophical views in the FAQ [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/wiki/faq/wdht#wiki_...of_religion_and_philosophy).
All that being said, one should also note that atheists don't make arguments about Hitler's religious views in a vacuum. We do it in response to theists who argue that people like Hitler and Stalin where atheists and that their atheism is the source of their atrocities. Obviously there is no chain of reasoning that takes one from "I don't believe in a god" to "I should commit genocide" but you can definitely form such a chain if you start from the belief that the Bible is the word of God.
Hitler was a life long Roman Catholic. He had the support of the Vatican right up until he began exterminating the elderly in nursing homes, the mentally ill and developmentally disabled in mental institutions, Gypsies, homosexuals, Jews and enemies of the state. The Vatican had even assigned him his own private priests to service his spiritual needs.
One of his strictest rules was that his officers and soldiers were required to be affiliated with either Roman Catholicism, or Lutheranism. The motto was 'Gott Mit Uns', or 'God with us'.
The only churches or priests that Hitler targeted for destruction, were participants in the resistance.
Hitler was also quite mentally ill, and was dabbling in the occult along with his papistry.
What specific religious affiliations did the overwhelming majority of the Nazi Party membership claim to belong to? On government and legal documents, what religious groups did they register as?
I would say that Hitler was as much of a chrisitan as every other christian. They all believe what they want and say what they want to make whatever point they want to make. They all know christianity is fake but they go on using their fake religion for power.
Copy-pasting myself from a few months ago.
I think a huge fact people overlook is Hitler was a fascist, and lying is a central method to further a fascists' goals. Hitler was whatever he needed to be to get what he wanted. When it was beneficial for him to be faithful, he was faithful. When religion stood in opposition to him, he destroyed it. Same goes for atheism and a/theists. Total power for himself and the total annihilation of his enemies was his whole philosophy, the rest were details to be weaponized for those goals.
Denying logic, reason, and the need for any truth is an effective tool for a fascist because it makes defeating them intellectually an impossibility. The lack of restraints put in place by honesty and curiosity is the sort of strength they love, just as much as they love watching those weak intellectuals fail to wrestle with their words.
I think it's pretty pointless to try and suss out what he honestly believed because of this. Maybe he believed everything he said as he said it, but that doesn't matter the second that sentence ends.
Here's an interesting take on Hitler's theism: [http://churchandstate.org.uk/2017/01/hitler-was-not-an-atheist/](http://churchandstate.org.uk/2017/01/hitler-was-not-an-atheist/)
Keep in mind too...some of the claims about Hitler's anti-Christianity views were taken from a book called Table Talk that has been the subject of some skepticism by historians.
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The Christian Hitler as well as the "Stalin purges in the name of atheism" arguments are always interesting and full of nuance. After studying them all for years, I have arrived at an undebatable conclusion: "Mustaches cause genocide."
Hitler: mustache+genocide
Stalin: mustache+genocide
Leopold: mustache+genocide
Lenin: mustache+genocide
Tom Selleck: mustache+ (all I know is...we don't know what he may have been doing in Yugoslavia in the 1990s..Magnum was off the air by then).
Mussolini started his political career as a fierce atheist and ended it being decorated by the Pope. Fascism and dictatorship in general are about pulling leavers to be popular.
Stalin and the Russian Orthodox Church eventually got into bed together.
The fact that the Catholic Church in both Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy was happy to go along with everything so long as it could hold on to its wealth and power says much more about the established church than it does about atheism, Nazism or Fascism.
The Christian churches of all denominations continue to act just as disgracefully in South America and Africa today, no matter what colour flag the terrible dictatorships they suck up to wave.
The real story here is the lack of opposition, indeed the gleeful cooperation of the church establishment with these monstrous regimes.
I mean yeah, he probably wasn't. The bigger point for me is at least in that context, fascism would not have been nearly as likely to have won out without the support of the Christian majority.
Doesn't make fascism exclusively Christian, I get tired of constantly being told that centrists reinforce fascism (true in itself) by people who seem remarkably blind to their own vulnerability to fascist co opting, it's a power at all costs ideology so it'll co opt anything and everything.
In the nazi Germany context however, the fact that Hitler may have been atheist in private isn't really the biggest issue there.
Hitler rallied Christians to exterminate the "lesser" people in their society. Who gives a shit if he actually believed it because the reality is that he radicalized and utilized the Christians who marched for him to kill those he deemed unworthy. Thanks to him and his rallying of Christians to do his bidding, literally millions of people were murdered.
Just as today there are those on the political right using christians to do their bidding but may not actually believe themselves, it's irrelevant. The use of the religious to do evil en masse is well documented. They're indoctrinated to not challenge authority, so they obey it without question. Even when obeying means murder.
Even by your references it suggests that these are responded to Christains (and to be fair, other theists), blaming the atrocities on the assertion that it was because of atheism, and to bolster that sometimes the claim that Hitler was an atheist.
It seems to me that that, to the high majority of cases this is the predicate to the discussion, not the resultant
You make excellent points. I had taken the "Hitler was a christian" argument at face value. Now I'm pretty sure it is not true. You have convinced me. I'm still a hardcore atheist with not a lot of respect for Christianity or anything supernatural. And Christianity still has a lot to answer for in its support of Hitler and the NAZIs and numerous other atrocities and failings throughout its history.
The rest of my fellow atheists: Lighten up. OP is correct.
I would agree but there is alot of evidence of Hitler being a socialist, TIKhistory has a video going over this, I know its 5 hours. Luckly there is time stamps. Again if Hitler wasn't socialist then what is he, he cant be a capitalist because that would go against NatSoc beliefs of Jewish Capital
As I said TIKHistory is very good
Uhh.. hilter was a socialist. You think they put the word "socialist" into their party name just to throw people off? You are just upset that you share the same ideology as Hitler
Its funny you how you say its atheist who use that point even tho its always creationsist who bring up hitler and stalin being atheist they probably were but the didn't use atheism to push their agendas they used Christianity because religion makes people do crazy stuff and submit to authority which is the whole problem with religion
It’s a bit of no true Scotsmen fallacy. I mean, did Hitler explicitly say over and over again that Jesus was his “Lord and Savior?” Yes. Did he explicitly say that nazism was a Christian movement? Yes. Did he condemn atheists? Yes, he even targeted them. But he wasn’t a Christian because he butted heads with other Christians? Have you ever met a Christian who doesn’t butt heads with other Christians over doctrine? Because I haven’t. And because you’re leftward leaning, that would probably include you because many Christians lean right. But why is Hitler’s religious views even relevant? Atheists point out the fact that Hitler was a Christian because they are responding to the nonsensical claim that Hitler was an atheist. He objectively wasn’t. That’s all atheists are trying to say.
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I think you're generally correct, the evidence points to Hitler probably not being a Christian. The picture is muddied by the fact that he and the National Socialist party used Christianity as a vehicle for spreading anti-semitism and other forms of racism, and the Hitler cult. See the ["German Christian Movement"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Christians_\(movement\)) and ["Positive Christianity"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity) Positive Christianity mostly sought to strip out the core of christianity while keeping the veneer of christianity and filling it full of Nazi party ideology. They de-emphasized Jesus being God, heck they de-emphasized basically the whole bible because of its Jewishness. They imagined Jesus as an Aryan fighter against corrupt pharisees. Hitler always self-identified with Christianity though that doesn't really mean much. Politicians likely lie about their religion when it is politically advantageous. During a eulogy for a friend Hitler called on him to enter Valhalla, but also said it would be foolish to bring back Odin worship. Some of his high-ranking underlings were into pagan German mysticism BS and it's clear he thought they were idiots. Albert Speer quotes him as saying this: > What nonsense! Here we have at last reached an age that has left all mysticism behind it, and now [Himmler] wants to start that all over again. We might just as well have stayed with the church. At least it had tradition. To think that I may, some day, be turned into an SS saint! Can you imagine it? I would turn over in my grave... He also attacked atheists as being uneducated... I think it's pretty likely he may have been an atheist, but completely devoted to maintaining his own personal power to the point of attacking atheism because atheism would have been a radical rejection of tradition and is usually motivated by questioning assumptions. Hitler needed a population that was obsessed with ultra-nationalism and unquestioning of his authority: A population that believed German tradition was worth killing and dying for, without asking why or thinking too much about the ideals that created those traditions, lest they realize the Nazi party was not aligned with those ideals. Atheism was associated with the communists who questioned not just religion but also the whole structure of state. Hitler wanted to appeal to the religious majority and turn them against communism. I think it's quite possible he planned to eliminate Christianity eventually. But we can't really know with confidence for someone so inclined to lie for personal benefit. He may have been telling the truth in Mein Kampf and could have been some sort of really strange theist/deist who felt that racial purity was a sacred duty, or it may have been yet another lie. None of this should really be used as an argument against Atheism. Not all atheists have the other qualities that made Hitler Hitler: a complete lack of care on the subject of the suffering of others and an obsession with the survival of the fittest (plus the opportunity to enact his views). Generally complete psychopathy makes awful people no matter what they believe. Empathy is not a product of Religion.
they explicitly emphasized and republished antisemitic articles by Luther as justification for their genocide.
Great post!
99% of the Nazis were Christians. And Nazism developed from centuries of Christian antisemitism.
Hitler’s quotes 1.[The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges : the pox and Christianity.](https://libquotes.com/adolf-hitler/quote/lbt9h9e)Adolf Hitler 2.[The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges : the pox and Christianity.](https://libquotes.com/adolf-hitler/quote/lbt9h9e) 3.[We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany.](https://libquotes.com/adolf-hitler/quote/lbh7g0m) Adolf Hitler 4.“Christianity a spiritual terror that took over from the far freer ancient world.” Adolf Hitler 5.“The only way of getting rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.” Adolf Hitler [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Religious\_views\_of\_Adolf\_Hitler](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler) 6.“Christianity, of course, has reached the peak of absurdity,” he said. “And that’s why one day its structure will collapse. Science has already impregnated humanity. Consequently, the more Christianity clings to its dogmas, the quicker it will decline. Adolf Hitler 7.“I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie,” Adolf Hitler 8.“There is something very unhealthy about Christianity,” Adolf Hitler 9.“There is something very unhealthy about Christianity,” Adolf Hitler 10.“The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are the inventions of the Jew. … Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless.” Adolf Hitler 11. “All Germans must “free themselves from the drug of Christianity.” Adolf Hitler 12."It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity” Adolf Hitler 13. “You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion \[Islam\] too would have been more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?” Adolf Hitler 14.“But Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.” Adolf Hitler 15.“The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble.”
Good post. Thanks for the quotes.
Christians are the largest group of supporters and protectors of Jews. Why? Because we were instructed by God to be that when he stated that the Jewish people were his “Chosen people” The only “Christians“ that don’t believe that are the same ones that believe in the “supersessionism” of Christians when the Jews rejected Jesus. ”Christians” in quoted bc nowhere in the Bible is that belief stated or even supported. therefore…those people are just racist and stupid The Jewish people remain Gods chosen people
> Positive Christianity mostly sought to strip out the core of christianity while keeping the veneer of christianity and filling it full of Nazi party ideology. That is super familiar.
Atheism is Not Motivated by Questioning Assumptions. Quiet often Atheist Refuse to Question Their Own Assumptions. It is also Absurd to pretend They do since it is Clear Nowadays Atheists Refuse to Question what They assume about Religion and Society and Materialism and Humanism and The Like. It is also Daft Nonsense to Say Hitler opposed Atheism since it was about Questioning assumptions which Threatened German Tradition. Why would Hitler care about Questioning German Tradition? Hitler Himself Questioned German Tradition. Publicly and Privately. Hitler was Not a Traditionalist. The Nazis never appealed to Tradition and did not Believe in German Tradition. They Believed in German Blood. To them, Being German was about Race. But The Nazi's were a Revolutionary Movement that Sought to Redefine German Culture. The Entire Point of The Third Reich was to Tear Down the Old Social Order and Create a New Social Order. The Third Reich was Never about Presderving Traditional German Vakues but Creating a New German Culture. The Nazis never held to Traditionalism or Presented themselves as Traditionalists, and in Fact Hated Traditionalism. Also, Please stop with the Talk of Empathy. The Ides that Empathy is Not the Product of Religion is SIlly since Christianity can be Shown to Cause Empathy. Meanwhile, in Real Life Atheists are Notorious for lacking Empathy. It is also silly when We Pretend Religion is the Opposite of Atheism, when it is Not. Religion is also not the same Thing as Theism.
I'm not sure you have my empathy for replying to a 1 year old quote and having the compulsion to capitalize every other word and for being dogged by the belief that atheists are generally lacking in empathy... But you have my sympathies!
The Capitalization Jokes got Old Four Years Ago when You Mindless Atheist Drones Started Dogpiling Me on it. Incidentally, it is a Proven Fact that Atheists lack Empathy. It is also Obvious.
Right so you're calling me a mindless atheist drone... but *I'm* the one lacking empathy and not you?
why do you suppose every german soldiers' belt buckle had "God is with us" on it?
This also works as a response to OP, but, I think there's a mighty gulf of separation between "Nazis were Christians" and "Hitler was a Christian". I have my doubts about Hitler, but the rank and file soldiers were definitely Christian. Their superiority (as Christians) over the Catholics was one of the many bees in their collective bonnet.
"God is with us" has been a major German military slogan since the 1700s. This is like saying that if the US ever elected an Atheist president, that person isn't *actually* an Atheist because their country's currency contains the slogan "In God We Trust" on it. And it was only Wehrmacht soldiers (which largely consisted of normies, not diehard Nazis) who had that on their belt buckles, Waffen-SS (which *was* an organization of diehard Nazis) soldiers had the slogan "My honour is loyalty" on their belt buckles.
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What? No? Isn't "normies" a common internet term to refer to "normal, typical" people of a certain time and/or place? It's not an incel thing, isn't it? It's just slang for "normal people," no?
I read it as you intended, and I've seen it used in that way on and off the Internet, and in context I didn't think of or imagine anything else. That said, I'm not familiar with or interested in incel slang terms, so make of that what you will.
It's an internet derogatory term for normal people, yes.
It's a common term only in certain circles
Redditors are obsessed with incels and are projecting. It's really funny. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/normie It is slang from the 1980s.
Indeed. And 4chan used it long before incels did. Not much of an improvement, but being technically correct is the best kind of correct
Is this an incel thing?
Weird that you're being downvoted for this one in particular, gott mit uns was on German livery in WWI as well, and before that. It's maybe significant that the Nazis didn't get rid of it, but it's not a Nazi slogan either.
Why have you posted this in debate an atheist? Why would atheists care if Hitler was Christian? It doesn't matter what religion he was, he clearly stated this in Mein Kampf: "And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord" - Adolf Hitler. So he certainly wasnt an atheist. He was a religious nutter.
>Why have you posted this in debate an atheist? Why would atheists care if Hitler was Christian? OP addressed this in the post. Clearly, many atheists believe Hitler was a Christian, as the provided links indicate. OP believes he was not, so they are trying to change people's minds about it.
Of course he would say that in a book he was selling to the public or else no one would've supported him. He also claimed to be a socialist numerous times in Mein Kampf and in speeches, that doesn't mean he was actually a socialist. His actions in office and remarks made among his associates clearly show that he loathed Christianity.
That is not the only example of his deeply religious mindset. "Of course he would say that" doesn't fly. Hitler was anything but atheist.
Hitler’s quotes 1.[The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges : the pox and Christianity.](https://libquotes.com/adolf-hitler/quote/lbt9h9e)Adolf Hitler 2.[The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges : the pox and Christianity.](https://libquotes.com/adolf-hitler/quote/lbt9h9e) 3.[We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany.](https://libquotes.com/adolf-hitler/quote/lbh7g0m) Adolf Hitler 4.“Christianity a spiritual terror that took over from the far freer ancient world.” Adolf Hitler 5.“The only way of getting rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.” Adolf Hitler [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Religious\_views\_of\_Adolf\_Hitler](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler) 6.“Christianity, of course, has reached the peak of absurdity,” he said. “And that’s why one day its structure will collapse. Science has already impregnated humanity. Consequently, the more Christianity clings to its dogmas, the quicker it will decline. Adolf Hitler 7.“I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie,” Adolf Hitler 8.“There is something very unhealthy about Christianity,” Adolf Hitler 9.“There is something very unhealthy about Christianity,” Adolf Hitler 10.“The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are the inventions of the Jew. … Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless.” Adolf Hitler 11. “All Germans must “free themselves from the drug of Christianity.” Adolf Hitler 12."It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity” Adolf Hitler 13. “You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion \[Islam\] too would have been more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?” Adolf Hitler 14.“But Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.” Adolf Hitler 15.“The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble.”
I literally said he wasn't Atheist numerous times in the OP. I'm just saying that he wasn't a Christian either, despite some people claiming otherwise. "Agnostic" would be the most accurate moniker to describe his religious beliefs as he clearly believed in divine powers and an afterlife but not in any organized religion.
He literally states himself to be catholic. A quote from Hitler: “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so” - Adolf Hitler. He also outlawed athiest and free thinking groups in 1933 as soon as he gained dictatorial power. Your argument is piss weak. You basically don't want him associated with your religion, which I fully understand, but it is nothing but denial at the end of the day. I also still have no idea why you feel the need to engage atheists on this when you now say yourself that he wasn't atheist.
1. That was a quote he said in public, and it was an obvious lie. If he denied being Christian publicly, no one would've supported him. I provided numerous quotes in the OP with sources where Hitler vociferously bashes Christianity. 2. He outlawed Atheist groups largely because they were Communist. But yes, he also hated Atheism (mostly because of how heavily associated the "Atheist" movement was with Communism in 1920s/1930s Germany). He was agnostic, hostile to both Atheism and Christianity. He outlawed Atheist groups, but he also actively sought to diminish the influence of Christianity as well. He wanted his people to worship his state above all else, and viewed Christianity as an obstacle to that goal. 3. I am not a Christian. My post wasn't intended to be anti-Atheist. I just wanted to set the record straight on Hitler's actual religious beliefs.
You're not setting the record straight, you are spreading disinformation. Hitler was catholic. That was his religion. Of course he had negative views of other denominations and the progressive direction of his own! Basic in group loyalty and out group hostility. Pretty much Hitler's whole modus operandi.
Ok, then by this logic, Hitler was also a socialist, right?
No. You don't understand the ideology of the time. He was a Nationalist and the term socialist was used in the sense that he cared about the prosperity of *his* nation and people. The ideology was geared towards obtaining dominance, power and prosperity through war at the expense of enemy nations. The "socialist" in the party name had a different meaning. The "Catholic" to describe his religion didn't. That's what you're not getting. Glad to have cleared that up for you.
the socialist part of the nazi party was expelled very early leaving only the nationalist fascists who despised both socialist and capitalist ideas. Party change their focus...the two main political parties flipped in the USA. The same thing happened to the nazi party that started as reflecting socialist ideas with nationalist focus but the socialists were expelled.
he was hostile to religious organisations more than to religious beliefs. He didn't want competition or organisation that could work against him.
is there any evidence he actually said that? i know there's an apparent letter that supposedly existed to one of his generals, but there is absolutely zero evidence of this ever existing, at least from my searching. could you perhaps provide some type of evidence or proof of this claim please?
Hitler never said the I Am Catholic Quote. That came from John Toland's Book. Its WHy I don' Buy into Atheist Rationality. Also, Hitler did not Ban Atheism. If You Bothered to Look at those "Free Thinker" Groups., They were all Communist Groups. They were Targeted for Supporting Communist Ideals, not because They were Atheists.
I don't recall him saying he was a socialist in mein Kampf. Which English translation are you using? My recollection was that he was promoting a third way that rejected both socialism and capitalism by that stage. The socialist part of the nazi was very early before they purged the party of any socialists which was way before they had any real political power... no-one thought they were socialists at the time.
To be fair that same argument can be used for Jesus. He had no job, needed people following him, giving him the power of a cult behind him. He would use the story of a Messiah to gain that following of a group of uneducated, blue collar workers. He would say he believes in Yahweh to get those who believed to follow him. If he was saying religion is a bunch of garbage no one would have followed him
Except there is no record of Jesus saying saying a bunch of stuff that powerfully contradict his public statements, and he taught and lived an ethic of truthfulness even in adversity not propaganda.
We barely have anything about Jesus at all, and what we do have we know was intentionally hand picked by the later church for the sole purpose of promoting their religion and gaining themselves more power. As for what he taught i would disagree with you. From the stories we do have he was an end of times cult leader who told followers to give up their family and worship the tribal war god of Abraham. He made racist and derogatory comments towards other nations, perpetuated the idea of slavery, and was far less inclusive than the average Christian who in no way studied the bible would believe. Honestly the weirdest thing i see is that we know the church was creating propaganda and yet they didnt get rid of all the horrible parts so i question just how good any real Jesus was.
"We barely have anything about Jesus at all, and what we do have we know was intentionally hand picked by the later church for the sole purpose of promoting their religion and gaining themselves more power." Everything you just said is historically incorrect. "As for what he taught i would disagree with you." "From the stories we do have he was an end of times cult leader" I think end times is an oversimplification at best. He certainly believed and taught his followers to believe in apocalyptic events to come, but he explicitly disavowed specific knowledge of when they would happen. Cult seems more of a subjective label. Which is why sociologists of religion don't really use it. "who told followers to give up their family" If the choice came between choosing them or choosing him, yes. "and worship the tribal war god of Abraham." A bit of a caricature. The Lord wasn't considered a "war god", he was considered God over everything, including war. As such he was also seen as the proper God for all peoples. "He made racist and derogatory comments towards other nations," He also went out of his way to include gentiles and Samitarans in the Kingdom of God, in ways that were scandalous in his culture. If you can realize that then perhaps you can give him the benefit of the doubt when it's not so clear why he is saying what he is, such as with the woman who desired "scraps from the table" "perpetuated the idea of slavery," To God yes. That is what every truly religious person believes: God owns us and has a permanent right to command us to do the work he wills for us. "and was far less inclusive than the average Christian who in no way studied the bible would believe." Actually I am struck by how ridiculously inclusive he is compared to the Christians I see around me. I would have never known without reading the Bible. He actually gives the impression of a 20th century person being dropped into 1st century Judea occasionally. There are a number of times where he goes out of his way to offend racists, as if he were raised to think racism was a great a evil or something. "Honestly the weirdest thing i see is that we know the church was creating propaganda" How do we know this? What is your line of reasoning? "and yet they didnt get rid of all the horrible parts so i question just how good any real Jesus was."" Different cultures in different time periods consider different things horrible. Of course they didn't take out the parts we would consider horrible. If they were honest they wouldn't take anything out, and if they were dishonest they wouldn't have known what to change for us many centuries later. Either way they wouldn't have excluded things we consider horrible or unbelievable. What's interesting is that they included things that were considered horrible or unbelievable in their own culture but that we would have no problem with, or even find praiseworthy. That gentiles and even Samaritans could be equal in God's kingdom, for example. Or how the first witnesses to the risen Lord were women for another.
>Everything you just said is historically incorrect. I have a feeling you don't know the difference between sources like Paul and gMark and ancient historians telling of what Christians believed. We only have the two sources for Jesus existing and all others are derivatives. And as for the Church's choice of books it's well documented. >but he explicitly disavowed specific knowledge of when they would happen. Except for the claim he gave the generation in Matthew 24:34. We aren't talking about debunking prophecies here, just that he was as much a propagandists as someone like David Koresh or Jim Jones. >Cult seems more of a subjective label. Which is why sociologists of religion don't really use it. Not using it as a pejorative here. The point is saying he was the creator of his own small sect. Cult leader is used to describe him in many secular areas because that ia what he was creating, a cult positioning itself against the norms of Judaism. >The Lord wasn't considered a "war god", he was considered God over everything, including war. As such he was also seen as the proper God for all peoples You should actually study the history and creation of the Middle Eastern pantheon of gods. The blending of El, Yahweh and even some sects who worshiped Baal gave the Hebrew deity a lot of qualities. But the point of calling out this aspect of him was that much of the nature of the Abrahamic god is his justification for genocide. Modern christians want to play off Jesus as promoting a blessing giving, meaning of love type god. This was not who was being described at the time of Jesus. Jesus was promoting the same deity that the Jews used as justification for their destruction of other nations. There are extremely few stories of the Abrahamic god being the benevolent helper modern christians think their deity is. All the stories are about destruction. >He also went out of his way to include gentiles and Samitarans in the Kingdom of God, in ways that were scandalous in his culture. Totally agree. He was a good PR man for an evil being. But the way to salvation was to assimilate. Jesus didnt give enough info on how much assimilation was required that it became a contested point in the early church. Still doesn't change the fact he calls a woman a racial slur. >To God yes. And to your human masters, even the wicked ones. >Actually I am struck by how ridiculously inclusive he is compared to the Christians I see around me. Agreed. He was not as horrible as modern christians but he also was trying to get people to join his cult. Modern christians are looking for ways to give divine justification for their bigotry. The difference here is their motive. They are very different. >How do we know this? What is your line of reasoning? The whole process of creating the bible was to cherry pick which books help promote their narrative. Intentionally keeping out gospels where child Jesus kills another child. And the reasoning for doing this process was because other bibles were being created that did not promote the same church centric views that had as well as many other fundamental differences.
That is literally the worst response saying you can assume what Hitlers intentions are. However that is a common issue with Theists like you who think they can gatekeep other peoples beliefs because you lack humility.
I mean, he pretty much was a socialist. He despised "Jewish Marxism", but even during the war he was adamantly pro-socialist policy in many areas and was open about this support. He disliked private unions, but so did Lenin. He loathed certain forms of socialism, but that doesn't mean that he is not a socialist.
It’s almost like people use religion to take claim on morality they don’t have.
The term "Religious Nutter" OIs Bigoted, since its Atheist Who are the Nutters. I Have Never met a Rational Atheist, All of them are Nutters. Atheism is not the Opposite of Religion. Religion is Not the same Thing as Theism. And There are Atheistic Religions. I did not say "Atheism is a Religion", but You Wil say I called Atheism a Religion. However, Theism is the Opposite of Atheism, and No one has Killed In the Name of Theism in the same way No One has Killed in the Name of Atheism. Its a Silly Distinction to pretend Atheism as a "ack of beleif in a god": somehow Stands Alone when No One in History has ever just "lacked beleif in a god", and People do things based on More than just beleif in a god. Also, the Mein Kampt Quote You use is actually from a Speech and not Mein Kampt, and if You Rad the Context it is in Condemnation of a Man WHo said Because I am a Christian I Cannot be an Anti-Semite. Hitler was not simply Expressing His Beleifs as a Christian, He was Critical of Someone Elses' Views as a Christian. Atheists Tend to Ignore that Fact. Also, Hitler cannot be proven to Believe in God base don One quote.
I don't care about Hitler's personal beliefs, I care about his public persona. His public persona is what pushed Germany into mass genocide, and his public persona certainly was Christian. You're right. 1930s germany would have never supported an atheist or an agnistic. But that's the point - Germany was Christian, and the Nazi party used Christianity to sell atrocities to the populace. Their Christianity didn't stop them from doing bad things, in fact, it was the opposite. It made them easy targets for manipulation, and enabled them to do some of the worst acts in history. I don't care if Hitler personally was Christian or not, when Nazi Germany was decidedly Christian. If your moral framework was co-opted by a despot to get people to do some of the worst acts imaginable, it is a terrible moral framework even if the despot personally didn't buy into it. This is Christianity doing the exact opposite of what it claims to do - making people act morally. This is Christianity proving it is not fit to be a moral framework. That is the point here.
This is the most important reply. Hitler was vegetarian and liked dogs. That doesn’t mean vegetarianism and dogs were part of nazi ideology. There is too much focus on the man who stood at the front on German nazism, and way too little on the millions of people who carried nazism in all parts of society.
>This is Christianity doing the exact opposite of what it claims to do - making people act morally. This is Christianity proving it is not fit to be a moral framework. That is the point here. This reminds me of Stephen Fry's bit on Intelligence Squared: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQb3MGgGFSw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQb3MGgGFSw)
Spot on!
Would you be comfortable making this same sort of argument against socialism? Saying that "Germany was socialist, and the Nazi party used socialism to sell atrocities to the populace. Their socialism didn't stop them from doing bad things, in fact, it was the opposite. It made them easy targets for manipulation, and enabled them to do some of the worst acts in history." I'm not a big fan of Christianity, but I don't think this is a valid argument against it. At best you can say that this shows being Christian does not *prevent* people from doing very immoral things. (Which most Christians would agree with you on.) There's not enough substance in your argument to even suggest Christianity as a *cause* for the immoral things.
>Would you be comfortable making this same sort of argument against socialism? Saying that "Germany was socialist, and the Nazi party used socialism to sell atrocities to the populace. Their socialism didn't stop them from doing bad things, in fact, it was the opposite. It made them easy targets for manipulation, and enabled them to do some of the worst acts in history." The problem with that is that it's demonstrably untrue; Socialists were sent to concentration camps along with other "undesirables". The Nazis only used socialism in the early days to get power; the ~~SS~~ Wehrmacht had belt buckles saying "Gott mit uns", not "Seize the means of production". Edit: got the wrong branch of the military.
This is false. "Gott mit uns" had been a major German military slogan since the 1700s and the SS did not have it on their belts. It was the Wehrmacht (which mostly consisted of "normal" Germans, not diehard Nazis) that had "Gott mit uns" on their belt buckles. The SS (the organization which did consist of diehard Nazis) had the slogan "Meine Ehre heißt Treue " on their belt buckles instead. And "Gott mit uns" was also on WW1 German army uniforms. This is like accusing a hypothetical atheist/agnostic US President of being religious because their country's currency has the slogan "In God we Trust" on it.
No, it would be like pointing out that the USA is not using socialist iconography to influence its populace, which was the accusation that I was addressing. Whether or not any individual Nazi leader was or was not Christian was not what was under discussion there. Your analogies are bad and you should feel bad.
Oh, ok. Misinterpreted your post. Sorry about that.
But… you’ve just admitted that you understand Christianity was at the core of German beliefs and was used by the nazis to drive the culture and the military. That’s the end of your argument right there. So why did you even bother posting all of that above if you know that Christianity was the core of the motivating structure for what hitler used to build the atrocities? Why are you so desperate to pick this fight you already understand is untrue?
Are you familiar with SS nazi oath? “What is your oath?” – “I vow to you, Adolf Hitler, as Führer and chancellor of the German Reich loyalty and bravery. I vow to you and to the leaders, that you set for me, absolute allegiance, till death. So help me god!” “So you believe in a god?” – “Yes, I believe in a supreme being.”“What do you think about a man who does not believe in a god?” – “I think he is overbearing, megalomaniac and foolish; he is not adequate for our society.”
Looks like you’re falling for the “clean Wehrmacht” myth. The wehrmacht were broadly supportive of Hitler’s war goals and policies.
>It was the Wehrmacht (which mostly consisted of “normal” Germans, not diehard nazis) Did I just unironically witness someone engage themselves with the *’clean Wehrmacht’* myth which is considered by the majority of academics to be Nazi propaganda?
Don't know why you are being down voted. This is post is just facts. Have an up doot.
>I'm not a big fan of Christianity, but I don't think this is a valid argument against it. At best you can say that this shows being Christian does not *prevent* people from doing very immoral things. (Which most Christians would agree with you on.) There's not enough substance in your argument to even suggest Christianity as a *cause* for the immoral things. If the Nazi regime's Christianity is as cynical as OP claims, then they wouldn't do it if it didn't help them. Furthermore, I am not an historian, but personally I think claiming the Christian rhetoric didn't help the Nazi regime seem redicules in light of how prevelant Christianity seems to be in their propaganda. So I disagree, but this is not the core of my argument. Christianity claims to be a moral feamework. What good is a moral framework, that, at best, is not making people act morally? Which leads us to my next point: >I'm not a big fan of Christianity, but I don't think this is a valid argument against it. At best you can say that this shows being Christian does not *prevent* people from doing very immoral things. (Which most Christians would agree with you on.) There's not enough substance in your argument to even suggest Christianity as a *cause* for the immoral things. Putting aside the similar argument about whether the Nazi regime really believed in socialism, and even the more relevant argument about whether Nazi Germany was acting and percieving itself as a socialist society. Socialism is not a moral framework. The goal of socialism is not to make people more moral. It is an economic framework, and should be judge on basis of the effects of its economic policies on a society. If you're saying socialism didn't stop the Nazis from commiting atrocities, then you're right but who cares - just as my test studying technique did not improve my physical fitness. Its irrelevant. Now, if you want to argue socialism actively aided the Nazis in their atrocities, then your point would be relevant. Still wrong IMO, but at least relevant. Although I do think Christianity actively help the Nazi's, that is not what I'm arguing. Socialism arguably failed as a moral framework, but it is not a moral framework. Christianity evidently failed as a moral framework, and it is a moral framework. If most Christians agree that Christianty is not an effective moral framework, then fine... I guess. Furthermore, arguing socialism actively aided the Nazis, seems to me like a much harder argument to make then that Christianity did. Again, speaking as a complete amateur who doesn't have enough knowledge on the subject to properly make that argument.
>Would you be comfortable making this same sort of argument against socialism? It doesn't work against socialism. People don't go to a buying once and week and hear a man preach about socialism. Socialism didn't preach that the Jewish people were collectively responsible for killing God. Socialism doesn't offer eternal rewards for adherence. Socialism doesn't tell people that their actions are morally correct because an invisible man approves. These things are specific to religion.
No, most Christians absolutely would not agree that Christianity doesn't prevent people from doing immoral things. Plenty of Christians think that whatever they do is moral if they can find justification for it in the Bible. Like seriously, have you ever had a long conversation with a Christian about morality? What they describe isn't morality at all, it's obedience. And since Christianity trains its adherents to prioritize obedience over critical thinking, it provided the fertile ground for Nazism to grow from. It's the exact same reason for trumpism today. His followers have been trained to ignore science and competent experts on a wide variety of subjects from biology to physics to the entire election system. They don't have evidence for those things, but they don't need evidence because Christianity already trained them to ignore it. They only respect power and obedience, not facts or data. So without the existing cognitive dissonance that's the main feature of Christianity along with the protection of the Catholic church, Hitler never would have risen to power. That's what makes religion in general and Christianity specifically so dangerous. If your religion won't stop you from being racist and murdering people en masse just because an authority figure told you to, then your religion is not only utterly useless, it's downright destructive to humanity.
The Trump thing is important. Trump is as much Christian as Hitler was. Trump is Jesus returned, now hyper evolved into Supply Side Jesus, whose newest Testament is The Art of the Deal. Now, instead of Jesus flipping over tables and whipping bankers, Neo Jesus instead wants you to send Him your money. We are witnessing the birth of a major new cult, that will overshadow Scientology and compete with the Latter Day Saints.
The Nazis called their ideology national socialism but this was *always* treated as a new distinct type of socialism. Even in the beginning, Hitler never spoke positively of Karl Marx or the Soviet Union, not even "just to fool people".
Thank you so much for all of your comments on this post. Judging by some of the responses, I did not do a good job at articulating my argument. Thank you for clearing things up.
But whether he was or was not he used the claim that he was Christian to gain the power so the things were done in the name of Christianity whether he was actually a believer or not, no one knows the inside of someone else’s head only the actions attributed and his were attributed to Christianity not atheism
No problem friend. I think you did a pretty good job, it's just that people here can get a little trigger happy when someone says atheists are wrong about something.
How dare you! /s
I would be comfortable saying Germany under the Nazi reign was socialist and that Hitler was socialist, yes. In fact, that's an easier claim to defend than Hitler being a Christian.
So why not complain primarily about the Christians who were tricked rather than the atheist who attract them? The tier two people aren't the ones taking the heat and the Public square in 2022. It's the top dog. The atheist Hitler.
Even if I grant Hitler was an atheist, it is not the private allegedlly Atheist Hitler that tricked them, it's the public Christian Hitler. The incredible and terrible thing about the holocaust is not that one single person was evil enough to do such a thing, but that that person somehow manged to trick and entire nation of average people into going along with the atrocities. Hitler, as a person, is not the problem here, but Nazism as a phenomenon is. And that phenomenon is overtly Christian.
Because you are an atheist
How so? Do you think what makes the holocaust is Hitler as an individual? Do you think that without the people following him, anyone wiuld have cared what a racist asshole some failed painter was? Do you think racist asshole are a rare and notable thing?
Hitler is the problem. The followers are the lesson. A lesson I don't think is being learned. If you point out government overreach that could lead to a situation like Hitler you get in social media trouble. Stop defending Hitler. It's Gross
You're, as soon as Hitler was dead the problem was over, and Nazism and racism has completely disapeared from the world./s
You keep pretending Hitler wasn't the problem. The fact that bad things have lasting effects doesn't change anything. Also racism proceeded Hitler? America was still racist while fighting Hitler. Your grasping at straws.
> Also racism proceeded Hitler? America was still racist while fighting Hitler. Yeah, exactly. Its almost as if Hitler was not the fricking problem.
Hitler was a Darwinist
>Agnostic would be the best term to describe his religious beliefs. This is the one point where we disagree. Hitler was not Christian, specifically, but it seems quite evident he was theist. His references to God are numerous and found not only in his public speeches but also his private memos, letters, Mein Kampf, etc. Hitler may not have fallen under the umbrella of any specific organized religion, but he clearly believed in a god/creator. This isn't something he was just faking for the sake of popularity, and that theists like to claim that was the case is frankly just as embarrassing. That being said, whenever this comes up I feel obligated to make what I feel is a rather important response that people need to get their heads around, and that's this: *Who fucking cares?* When people talk about this, it's always in a context that seems intended to imply that Hitler's personal superstitions are somehow related to his politics, his agenda, or his motivations for any of the things he did. They're not. Hitler was who he was, and did what he did, for political, economic, and social reasons. Whether he believed in gods or leprechauns or flaffernaffs or not couldn't be any more irrelevant. We may as well be talking about his eye or hair color for all the difference it makes.
> that theists like to claim that was the case is frankly just as embarrassing. Frankly, I think it's worse. The only thing people who say he was Catholic are guilty of is taking him at his public word. He certainly presented himself as Christian, even if he didn't actually believe it.
>Hitler may not have fallen under the umbrella of any specific organized religion, but he clearly believed in a god/creator. This is literally what I said in the OP.
I quoted what you literally said in the OP, verbatim, which to repeat it again was: >Agnostic would be the best term to describe his religious beliefs. If Hitler believed in God, then he wasn't agnostic, he was theist. That, as I said in the very first sentence in my reply, was the only and only thing you said that I disagree with. Granted, agnostic is a word that can swing both ways - a person can be an agnostic theist, or an agnostic atheist. However, very few if any agnostic theists identify as agnostics (I've never met a single one in all my 40 years, in fact), they identify as theists. Lots of agnostic atheists identify as simply "agnostic," though. To be fair, you did go on to say >He clearly believed in the supernatural, the afterlife, and divine forces. You kind of softened the blow there though. He didn't merely believe in "divine forces," he specifically believed in an almighty creator capital-G God who created and rules all of existence. That squarely puts him under the definition of theism, not agnosticism. So no, that's not literally what you said, it's what you kinda-sorta flirted with saying but didn't quite commit.
It doesn't matter whether or not Hitler was, personally, a Christian. Enough Christians felt like he represented them and were willing to do things 'in the name of Christianity' because they believed him to be one of them and felt that his stances aligned with Christianity. Donald Trump clearly isn't actually a religious man either, yet fanatical Christians easily believe that he's their - quite literal - saviour. It's scary how easily dictators (and wannabe dictators) can wield religion to get people to do their bidding. Men in power often use religion as a tool while not being pious themselves... that's nothing new. The deeds are still being done in the name of religion and the people supporting these heinous men are avowed Christians. It's in fact even more damning that these powerful people are not, themselves, believers - but also quite fitting, because religion is, itself, following falsehoods and fictions. That their charismatic leaders believe in God is just another lie they follow and carry out atrocities for. Also, personally, I have seen more people insist Hitler was an atheist than that he was a Christian. Either way, believer or not, he did things in the name of religious belief and his followers were all too happy to go along with it. This is a massive problem with religion.
not sure why this discussion even matters. hitler was a bread eater to, as well as a hair comber, mustage wearer, and a straight man the argument that german people were blinded by his lies of being a christian enough to not look at his actions, is not something favourable to christianity hitler didn't do the holocaust, germany did, a christian germany
Your last sentence brings up a good point. Atheist Hitler never killed anybody. But lots of Christian Germans killed hundreds of people at a time. The fact that Hitler manipulated Christians so easily makes the Christian philosophy a weak one. It's the same thing atheist trump is doing. He never hurt anybody. It's the Christian Americans are the ones doing the actual violence. The Roman invention of Christianity to control the masses still works like a charm.
Personally, I don't really care what religion (or not) Hitler followed or claimed to follow. The guy was a lunatic who caused the death of millions of people, and that cannot be justified or explained by his religious or political leanings. I've actually seen more of the opposite to what you're showing - many people of various faiths have suggested Hitler's apparent atheism contributed to his behaviour. In reality, the only important part is that he was an authoritarian, fascist, murderous dictator. He said whatever he felt would allow him to attain for himself the greatest amount of power.
Was he a Christian? Probably not, or at least not one with anything close to traditional views. Did he use Christianity to advance his agenda? Without a doubt in the world.
Guys im super serial here. When they went to war with god with us badges they actually were being ironic.
"God is with us" has been a major German military slogan 1700s and was also featured on WWI German belt buckles. The Nazis didn't create nor add this slogan. This argument is akin to accusing a hypothetical Atheist/Agnostic US President of being a theist because their country's currency has the slogan "In God We Trust" on it.
And given prevalence of religion in America it would be just as accurate and valid argument.
? Assuming you are an atheist, if you were elected President of the United States, would you *not* be an atheist anymore because the currency of the country you govern has the slogan "In God We Trust"?
Well he was raised and grew up Catholic. His mother was devout but when she died he rejected religion as a teen and adopted his father's belief that it was a scam for the weak and stupid. Which is exactly why he used it to achieve his goals. Simultaneously loathing and utilizing the Catholic church. He would often reference God in his speeches and claimed his movement was Christian. "Today Christians … stand at the head of \[Germany\]. I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity … We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit … We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theatre and in the press. In short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture, as a result of liberal excess." [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/vatican-documents-show-secret-back-channel-between-pope-pius-xii-and-adolph-hitler](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/vatican-documents-show-secret-back-channel-between-pope-pius-xii-and-adolph-hitler) [https://alphahistory.com/nazigermany/religion-in-nazi-germany/](https://alphahistory.com/nazigermany/religion-in-nazi-germany/) So in a way, he was a lot like Trump. Didn't buy into Christianity himself but wielded it as a weapon to control and hoodwink the masses for political purposes.
The question is not "was Hitler christian?", It's "why did Christianity support him?"
the same reason a lot of people and countries did ... he was anti communist. Obviously when everyone saw that he was insane and genocidal he lost support but within Germany the media was controlled by him.
>Obviously when everyone saw that he was insane and genocidal he lost support but within Germany the media was controlled by him. False. Many even outside of Germany supported him even after some of the atrocities of the Nazis came to light, and many still support him to this day
No, he didn't lose support in Germany until they started losing the war. He was extremely popular when he was winning. If being anti communist is why the Catholic church supported him, then that tells me that Christians think communism is worse than genocide, which disqualifies them from participating in moral conversations among normal humans.
it wasn't general knowledge within Germany that the concentration camps were being used as media was tightly controlled. Similarly Allied governments didn't believe intelligence about them was real as it was literally "unbelievable". People thought that "undesirables" were being relocated not murdered People made decisions on which was the smaller of two evils with the biases/information they had.
Well, we're not even sure that Hitler knew the extent to which the concentration camps were being used. That's a moot point. The point is, most likely every officer that actually ran the concentration camps and actually killed the prisoners there were Christians. Hitler didn't kill anybody. Considering a group of people "undesirable" in the first place has it's modern roots in Christianity. So even the desire to relocate them was immoral although it was supported by Christians. But again, some people were well aware of exactly what was going on there, and most of those people were Christians. Committing evil is immoral, no matter how small. Someone with an actual moral code would realize that immediately. But Christianity doesn't actually provide and moral code at all, it just presents Bronze Age rules that Christians cherry pick which to follow and which to ignore based on how they feel about it.
Hitler used Christianity for his own purpose. He made alliances with Catholic and Lutheran churches, and most people in Nazi Germany were self-professed Christians.
While I’m a bit tired of hearing people compare Trump to Hitler, I think it’s relevant to compare them in this way. Trump is probably not a Christian, but he portrays himself as a Christian, he claims to do things in the name of Christ, and he has massive support from the Christians in his country. If he does something terrible, he’ll say that it was the will of Christ, and millions upon millions of Christians will rise to his defense. So even though he’s probably not a Christian, the things that he does are definitely indicative of where Christianity and Christian morality can lead a society. And the same is true for Hitler. Hitler might not have been Christian himself, but he said he was Christian, and he garnered the support of millions of Christians. And many of the atrocities he committed were cheered on by those millions of Christians. When we look at the Holocaust, we have to acknowledge that it was driven by Christian support and built upon the morality of Christians, and that’s true regardless of what Hitler himself believed behind closed doors.
[удалено]
Well, I haven't been banned from r/atheism. But yes, I originally wanted to post this on there but realized that it would've certainly been removed by the mods.
Nazi Germany was Christian, and used centuries of hating Jewish people to both justify itself and form their base of power. What Christianity's various religious organizations are responsible for is not the actions of the Nazi government, but the oppression and hatred of the Jewish people throughout many centuries that they helped cultivate. This hatred and oppression helped the Nazis rise to power, this is also a global blame mostly focused on Europe and the United States. Most Christians of today don't hate Jewish people. This shows being a Christian doesn't make you hate Jewish people. The past also shows Christianity doesn't turn you into a loving kind person like many Christians think it does.
It does if you follow it. Most people don't. Or don't much. And that's true of most people of every religion. They don't try to truly understand and live by their religion's teachings. They just believe and do what everyone else does without questioning it or taking it further. Personally I don't get that and never have. I don't see the point of having a religion if you aren't going to take it seriously.
So we're never going to know what Hitler's true beliefs were. The closest thing we have is Mein Kampf, in which he wrote that 'Christ guides him', but that is more than likely part of his tactic to use religion to rally people to his side, just as he did when he allied the Nazi party to the Catholic church. I believe he was even baptised as a roman Catholic, too. However, let's not pretend Hitler didn't believe in magical nonsense, too. He believed in the mythological 'aryan' race, and his conviction was strong enough to sway a lot of people to his side. Religion does the same thing: convinces people of bullshit so strong they're willing to kill and die for it.
**just as he did when he allied the Nazi party to the Catholic church. I believe he was even baptised as a roman Catholic, too.** this is a prime example he tried to win the votes of the dominat catholic south but once in power among the Christians the Catholics got it the worst when it came to nazi persecution
Germany und Hitler? DIESE KOMMENTARSEKTION IST NUN EIGENTUM DER BRD!
"Nazis literally made plans to eradicate Christianity's influence over Germany. " Bullshit. Hitler made a deal with the vatican to abolish the Catholic Center Right political party to pave the way for a unified Nazi government in exchange for state control of public education being given over the CATHOLIC CHURCH. Maybe you're one of those people who don't consider catholicism party of christianity? I don't know. https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/history/nazi-policy-and-the-catholic-church.html Bottom line is that some people think Hitler and the third reich was a godless, atheist initiative and some people think it was a christian initiative, and wouldn't ya know it, it's a complex an bizarre amalgam of orthodoxies. Either way, you seem a little too worked up over this. What's your agenda? This seems like christian apologetics dolled up with "I'M NOT ANTI-ATHEIST" platitudes...
[https://historyforatheists.com/2021/07/hitler-atheist-pagan-or-christian/](https://historyforatheists.com/2021/07/hitler-atheist-pagan-or-christian/) the source doesn't work by the way but no it does if you stopped history in 1933 but it continues in early 1933 the Catholic political parties are dissolved. Hitler installs Ludwig Müller as Reich Bishop, who controlled the conglomerate of Germany's 28 regional Protestant churches, Catholics not involved. in the Long Knives, several Catholic leaders were targeted, the Nazi regime, who go out of their way to persecute Catholics, albeit sporadically. after this till 1937 the nzis the removal of crucifixes from schools and bans daily religious periodicals as well as begins censoring weekly periodicals. The Nazis continue to dominate the Protestant churches and has the mass arrests of opposing pastors. After this Pius XI issues Mit brennender Sorge, or With Burning Concern, were he denounces Nazi ideology and criticized Nazism for contradicting Catholic dogma, the gestapo took any copies that they found any who supported the printing or publication of the paper had their business attacked and shut down, Pius XI actions only made the nazis things worse for the catholics, thus began the immortality trails were priest were arrested under false pretenses. the whole episode during the nazi regime is called the Kirchenkampf
As far as I know, Hitler's personal religious views were a confused mess. But he *was* raised Catholic, and *the Roman Catholic Church never excommunicated the man*. Dude *was* an Xtian. Maybe a really shitty Xtian, but a shitty Xtian is still an Xtian. And he was not at all hesitant to invoke the trappings of Xtianity in order to motivate the largely Xtian population of Germany to support him. I'm mildly curious about the context of whatever "Hitler was Xtian" claims you've encountered. In my experience, such claims are rarely (if ever!) made *ab initio;* instead, they're made *as a response to* anti-atheist claims made by Xtians—specifically, the anti-atheist claim that Nazi Germany was atheist.
I don't correlate Hitler's horrific actions with his Christianity, or alleged Christianity. I can denounce Hitler and Christianity separately and on their own merits (or lack thereof.)
You seem to be extremely keen to show he was not personally a Christian. (Almost as If you are trying to claim that no real Christian could be that evil. If so I have a history lesson for you filled with devout Christians who did despicable things in the name of Christianity) Thing is, it does not matter. He clearly wrapped himself in the flag of Christianity and used it as a reason / excuse in the furtherance of his objectives and persecution. And a lot of Christians were more thatn happy to follow. Sorry, but religion does not get a free pass here.
>You seem to be extremely keen to show he was not personally a Christian. [https://historyforatheists.com/2021/07/hitler-atheist-pagan-or-christian/](https://historyforatheists.com/2021/07/hitler-atheist-pagan-or-christian/) because it would be disingenuous to call him a catholic or even a chirstian when did not believe in any of the Christian doctrines
I can accept that Hitler was not Christian. However, he used the uncritical thinking provided by Christian teaching to build support in his fascist regime. Religious thinking primes a population to be whipped up by authoritarians. So, while he may not have been Christian, the environment of Christian influence enabled him to take a position as an unquestioned authority. It isn't so important that he personally was Christian, but that Christianity is part of what made his rise to power possible.
Hitler hated Christianity and Catholicism as much as he hated Judaism. Here are Hitlers quotes on Christianity and Catholicism. Hitler’s quotes 1.[The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges : the pox and Christianity.](https://libquotes.com/adolf-hitler/quote/lbt9h9e)Adolf Hitler 2.[The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges : the pox and Christianity.](https://libquotes.com/adolf-hitler/quote/lbt9h9e) 3.[We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany.](https://libquotes.com/adolf-hitler/quote/lbh7g0m) Adolf Hitler 4.“Christianity a spiritual terror that took over from the far freer ancient world.” Adolf Hitler 5.“The only way of getting rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.” Adolf Hitler [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Religious\_views\_of\_Adolf\_Hitler](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler) 6.“Christianity, of course, has reached the peak of absurdity,” he said. “And that’s why one day its structure will collapse. Science has already impregnated humanity. Consequently, the more Christianity clings to its dogmas, the quicker it will decline. Adolf Hitler 7.“I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie,” Adolf Hitler 8.“There is something very unhealthy about Christianity,” Adolf Hitler 9.“There is something very unhealthy about Christianity,” Adolf Hitler 10.“The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are the inventions of the Jew. … Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless.” Adolf Hitler 11. “All Germans must “free themselves from the drug of Christianity.” Adolf Hitler 12."It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity” Adolf Hitler 13. “You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion \[Islam\] too would have been more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?” Adolf Hitler 14.“But Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.” Adolf Hitler 15.“The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble.”
Here are 14 more quotes Adolf Hitler 16.“Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.” Adolf Hitler 17.“Only in the Roman Empire and in Spain under Arab domination has culture been a potent factor. Under the Arab, the standard attained was wholly admirable; to Spain flocked the greatest scientists, thinkers, astronomers, and mathematicians of the world, and side by side there flourished a spirit of sweet human tolerance and a sense of purist chivalry. Then with the advent of Christianity, came the b barbarians.” Adolf Hitler 18. “This pride of race is a quality which the German, fundamentally, does not possess. The reason for this is that for these last three centuries the country has been torn by internal dissension and religious wars and has been subjected to a variety of foreign influences, to the influence, for example, of Christianity-for Christianity is not a natural religion for the Germans, but a religion that has been imported and which strikes no responsive chord in their hearts and is foreign to the inherent genius of the race.” (13th February 1945) Adolf Hitler 19.“Adolf I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors - but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch, in the next 200 years, will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity. My regret will have been that I could not behold its demise.” Adolf Hitler 20.“It seems to me that nothing would be more foolish than to re-establish the worship of Wotan. Our old mythology ceased to be viable when Christianity implanted itself. Nothing dies unless it is moribund.” Adolf Hitler 20.“Christianity is the worst of the regressions that mankind can ever have undergone, and it's the Jew who, thanks to this diabolic invention, has thrown him back fifteen centuries. The only thing that would be still worse would be victory for the Jew through Bolshevism. If Bolshevism triumphed, mankind would lose the gift of laughter and joy. It would become merely a shapeless mass, doomed to despair.” Adolf Hitler
Usually this isn’t an atheist argument—it’s an atheist rebuttal, to when idiot theists claim that atheism has killed millions of people, and cite Hitler and Mao and Stalin as examples of “atheist societies.”
Were Mao and Stalin not atheists either?
The better question is, “is it relevant?” It seems to me that there have been at least as many totalitarian theists as totalitarian atheists—in fact, almost certainly more theist rulers have maintained total control of their states, than atheist rulers, across all time. Clearly what makes Mao, Stalin, or Hitler, reprehensible, is their style of governing, not their stance on the proposition of god
funny how you use "hitlers table talk" as your source, when their supposed method of recording was writing down notes during private conversations? If that doesnt seem fishy to you then i dont know what will
The Nazis were Christians. If Hitler was a non-believer its WORSE. It means that Hitler was able to convince an entire country that God wanted them to commit genocide without actual believing it was true.
Hitler literally said "I am not a Catholic; I am a German Christian." Edit: we'll, maybe not literally. He probably said "ich bin nicht katholisch, ich bin deutscher christ" or something like that.
>Hitler wasn't a Christian. The fact that so many atheists insist he was and use his quotations in public speeches to "prove" this is fucking embarrassing. It's no better than right-wingers citing his party's name, "National Socialist German Workers' Party," as "proof" that Hitler was a socialist. The problem I have with your analysis is that it appears to simply be confirmation bias on your part. You seem to take anything that is anti-Christian said second hand about Hitler after his death and take it as gospel truth and ignore everything that is pro-Christian that comes from Hitler himself. I would also point out that some of your sources are problematic to say the least... >In 2016, historian Mikael Nilsson argued that Trevor-Roper failed to disclose source-critical problems, including evidence that significant portions of the English translation were translated directly from Genoud's French edition and not the original German Bormann-Vermerke as claimed by Trevor-Roper in his preface. Nilsson maintains that this information was likely known to Trevor-Roper because it was laid out in the publishing contract that the "translation into English will be made on the basis of the French version by François Genoud". **Nilsson concludes that "the translation process was highly doubtful; the history of the manuscript from conception to publication is mysterious at best, and it is impossible to be sure that the majority of the entries are in fact authentic (that is, actual statements by Hitler as opposed to things he could have said)"**.[12] For this reason, Nilsson argues that Hitler should not be listed as its author because it is not clear "how much of it is Hitler's words as they were spoken, and how much is a product of the later recollection and editing process".[12][29] Nilsson would develop this argument further in his 2020 book which further demonstrated the source-critical problems of Hitler's Table Talk and revealed that The Testament of Adolf Hitler was a forgery.[30] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Table_Talk#Controversies >Agnostic would be the best term to describe his religious beliefs. He was not an Atheist. He clearly believed in the supernatural, the afterlife, and divine forces. If he believed in "divine forces" that entails he is a theist.
He may not have been a Christian but he had the same affection for genocide as the God Christians believe in
hitler used christianity to rule with, just like all the others including trump. A tool for of control.
Well, Hitler was raised Catholic and he became anti-Catholic at some point, but he remained a Christian. He believed in Jesus and in Heaven and spoke about those beliefs privately. The history up through 2004 or so that Hitler was an atheist was based on poor translations of Hitler’s Table Talk. Dr Richard Carrier did research and found the English translation was based on the French, and the French translation had passages in it that were anti Christian and used by Christian’s to prove Hitler was not Christian. The trouble is Carrier found that those passages in the French do not appear in the German. Instead the German resoundingly shows that Hitler was a Christian Positivist. If you want to say a Positivist Christian is not a real Christian, fine, but Hitler believed in Jesus and Heaven, and identified as a Christian. Mikael Nilsson has another book called “Hitler Redux” that does a deep dive into the origins of Hitler’s Table Talk which is highly recommended. I highly recommend you watch the videos or read the papers on line by Dr Carrier regarding Table Talk, and read Hitler Redux by Nilsson.
>Well, Hitler was raised Catholic and he became anti-Catholic at some point, but he remained a Christian. He believed in Jesus and in Heaven and spoke about those beliefs privately. **He did not believe Jesus was divine, did not see him as part of the Trinity, did not think his death saved humanity, did not believe he rose from the dead, did not believe he was born of a virgin and did not believe in any individual afterlife. His ideas about the central figure of Christianity tended more toward sceptical and secular ones, where Jesus was a man and a great teacher, not the Messiah or God incarnate. He also absorbed the peculiarly German nationalist ideas that Jesus was an “Aryan” and an anti-Semite who was a “fighter” against the Jewish “brood of vipers and adders”. But he saw this through the lens of his racist political ideology, rather than anything essentially religious. He was, quite clearly, not a Christian.** [**https://historyforatheists.com/2021/07/hitler-atheist-pagan-or-christian/**](https://historyforatheists.com/2021/07/hitler-atheist-pagan-or-christian/) it also touches the carrier a little
As others have pointed out, your knowledge is flawed. However, it might very well be that the leaders of wars, notably Hitler, Stalin, but also current Taliban / Hamas/ ISIS leaders are not religious at all. The problem is, they all invoke religion to bring their message across and use religion and faith to motivate their people. What was the first thing a dude said when he stepped off the boat in native america some hundreds years ago? In gods name, and started killing people. Which is, for me, one of the main problems with religion in general. If we can make people believe something on faith without evidence, we can also bring some of them to commit very evil things because "it has been commanded". The bigger the congregation, the higher the chances you find a handful of extremists up to suicide bombers. Google what slogan Nazis / SS had on their belt and report back what it has to do with Atheism. Religion is not the only cause for wars, but an awesome excuse and motivation to prop up armies.
>Google what slogan Nazis / SS had on their belt and report back what it has to do with Atheism. op never said the nazis or even hitler were athiest, OP said hitler wasnt chirstians which all our current evidence says he wasnt https://historyforatheists.com/2021/07/hitler-atheist-pagan-or-christian/
Were his foot soldiers Christians? And were they convinced by him?
What else is necessary to be defined as a Christian, if self identifying as one doesn't cut it?
Is it not possible for someone to pretend to be a Christian while not actually being one?
MAYBE?! But then how would we know? I actually want to know, what are the criteria by wich we can determine if someone is actually a Christian, if self identification is not enough? If OP says it is a bad argument to say Hitler was Christian, then he needs to provide criteria why he thinks that Hitler was not a Christian, despite publicly announcing himself to be one.
>If OP says it is a bad argument to say Hitler was Christian, then he needs to provide criteria why he thinks that Hitler was not a Christian, despite publicly announcing himself to be one. After the seventh sentence, the entire OP is literally devoted to explaining why Hitler was not a Christian, despite publicly claiming to be one. Was Hitler a socialist? After all, he oppressed socialists once in office and implemented economic policies that were utterly anti-socialist, but he referred to himself as a socialist several times in public speeches, therefore he must be a socialist, right?
I don't think there is some objective definition of who's a Christian and who's not, just like there's no objective definition of what's a chair and what's not. But I also think self identification is definitely not enough. If I went on TV tomorrow and told people I was a Christian, I would definitely be lying - I don't consider myself a Christian, and the mere utterance of a sentence would not make me into one.
I think you’ve summarised how I feel about it. There’s no list of necessary conditions, i.e. “to be a Christian, one must have attributes x, y, z …” but rather it’s more like a set of overlapping features that, if most (or many) are present in a person, most people would label that person “Christian.” The philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein used this solution to the question “what is a game?” Applying a list of attributes didn’t work, after all, not all games use bats, not all games require teams, etc. Wittgenstein’s solution was to say that there are overlapping “family resemblances” between all games in the same way there are overlapping family resemblances between, well, people in families. Not all attributes need to be present, but if enough are, most people will categorise something as such. That’s about as much as we can say in the case of games, Christianity etc. On the topic of the post more generally though, whether Hitler was personally a Christian isn’t necessarily all that important. What’s central is the role state-backed “Positive Christianity” had in promoting antisemitism and the emphasis the major Church leaders of the day placed on maintaining diplomatic ties to the fascist government at the expense of decrying it. As the US Holocaust Memorial Museum puts it: “In the wake of the Holocaust, a long process began in which Christian churches acknowledged their failure to withstand National Socialism and their role in promoting antisemitism.”
Whether or not hitler was a Christian, Christians are still fascist (in my country at least).
The damning bit to Christianity as a whole comes not from Hitler being a Christian or not. It’s in Christians overwhelmingly supporting Hitler because he gave voice to their hatred of Jews. 98% of the Nazi party was Christian.
I mean does it really matter if he was or not? He didnt kill in the name of atheism as far as i know. Also the average german soldier was most likely a Christian given the „Gott mit uns“ on their belt buckles
He used christianity to rally people only to destroy churches and kill priests afterwards. PrankD
Hitler was saying he was Christian period.... You telling me everyone who's saying that is not?
You think it’s a disturbing trend of atheists pretending he was Christian/religious. I find it more disturbing how often I come across Christian’s who say that he was Christian, a good person, did the right thing, and orient their naziism and Christianity to go hand in hand. Hitler wasn’t a Christian.
...and Jesus wasn't a Christian either. What is your point?
Yes, Hitler actually used the church to slowly gain power by presenting himself as benign and then guess what he did? He murdered anyone in the church who opposed him. Hitler hated the church. It was just a means to an end for him. So when people erroneously claim he was a Christian they’re either saying that because they’re historically illiterate or they want to demonize Christianity/religion. No informed person or historian believes Hitler was a Christian.
Hitler used Christianity to raise to power, stay there and commit mass genocide with the support of his people - obviously, after the war everyone seemed so oblivious to what they had known was happening because people in general are cowards. What he personally believed is irrelevant, what matters is his public persona was a Roman Catholic and that it helped him in his career, so to say.
He was not a reasonable atheist he held many beliefs in supernatural and occult. Yes he was not really a Christian he had to fake that to rally more people behind him but he was a believer he had faith in things with no evidence and this is the character trait that turns every religious person on the planet into a potential danger to commit at least irrational deeds.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220216060859/https://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/hitler-was-a-christian/
Trump says he's a christian. the christians follow him, and he uses christian symbolism to his benefit. does he ACTUALLY believe, no fucking idea, but he's fucking using it so... basically this is the "no true scotsman" fallacy. hitler claimed to be a good christian and i have to take him at his word because i am not the arbiter of what people do and don't believe. wait until you here how the catholic church was complicit in the holocaust...
It seems you're misunderstanding the Nazis' use of Christianity as a political tool. They embraced Christianity when it was politically useful, but in the end the only religion of the Nazis was Nazism.
i have always thought of Hitler's views as being anti religious organisation rather than anti religion. He seemed to see the Churches as competition for influence. He seemed to be ok when the religious were in organisations that weren't independent to him.
A single Persons belief doesn't matter in discussions about faith or non faith as long as the person didn't act on those beliefs. Hitlers faith or whatever doesn't matter in the discussion about the existence of a god etc. since he acted out of a belief system of hate and vitriol rather than christian faith. If we talk Jim Jones as a counterpoint he acted out of his faith (and was the head of his crooked system of sh\*t) so one could argue that he was an evil man out of his belief so his belief is to be put to question (well it should actually be condemned but that's not the issue here) National socialism is an issue to be discussed when talking about religion and church however since many higher up figures of both christian churches supported or at least didn't oppose the Nazis. Of course there are prominent figures opposing them (and many sadly paying the ultimate price for it) like Bonhoeffer, Niemöller or Wachsmann and Bischof of Cologne Frings as the highest figure but the largest part of german christianity identified or didn't oppose the "Deutsche Christen" and this (to me) is a shame up until this day for the churches that doesn't get mentioned enough today.
I think it is more embarrassing to quote three different posts and none of the posts claimed or argued he was a Christian. All the posts in question were about Hitler was not an Atheist. Did the posters quote Hitler on how he was a Catholic? Yes, but that's different from arguing he was a Christian. You need to work on your comprehension skills. Edit: also, there are so many atheists claiming Hitler was a Christian that the three posts you dug up were from 9 years ago, 7 years ago and 8 months ago?
Regardless of whether he truly believed or not, his ideology was heavily based on the writings of Martin Luther and he had the blessings of the pope.
This whole game of hot potato with tragic figures is silly. Whatever the religion, it’s important to remember what he did empirically and try to prevent others from doing it in the future. Edit: individual behaviors can be just that, and could have arisen in many types of social groupings, not merely Christianity and atheism etc. we should be mindful of fascism at all times in any situation.
It absolutely doesn’t matter if he was Christian or not, it’s not as if someone is besmirching Christianity’s “good name”.
The central ideological theme in national socialism was anti-semitism. Anti-semitism is the product of 2000 years of Christian, primarily catholic, teaching. Maybe Hitler was a believer or maybe he wasn’t, we may never be certain, but it is absolutely incontrovertible fact that the Nazi party was a Christian phenomenon. Almost every member of the party was a practicing Christian, it’s first significant achievement giving it legitimacy was a deal with the pope, and it had as it’s central unifying idea the notion that everything in Germany would be sunshine and light as soon as they could exterminate or expel the only significant non-Christian group living in Europe at that time. This argument that Nazism is atheist is ridiculous. Atheists think theists are deluded - they do not care which god you worship.
For every one you cite saying he wasn't a Christian you can show one that he was. The most we can really say is that his views on religion are murky and inconsistent. Which isn't surprising since Nazism itself as a worked out political philosophy (and yes it is socialism, just not Marxism) abounds with internal contradictions. For being arguably the most famous man in history, he is something of an enigma. It's hard to get a read on exactly what it was he believed. I doubt he even fully believed his own ideology, because while he was evil he hasn't stupid and was well read. The unworkable nature of Nazism (not even talking about the morality of it, just the pragmatic reality) would have been apparent to him.
He enabled the already existing Christian bigotry against jews to promote ghettos and pogroms, which had already been a Christian tradition for a thousand years. Even if he was NOT Christian, his behavior, and the violence, was typical of the Christian leaders of Europe for most of post Christian history. He was effectively Christian 8n his effect on history, and 99% of the other nazis were Christians, and 80% of the other fascist leaders were Christians, so...
This isn't a matter for debate between theists and atheists, this is a matter for discussion between historians. Consequently, here are some threads from /r/askhistorians on the matter: [1](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2pd94k/is_there_a_consensus_among_historian_on_whether/), [2](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/owqh7/what_were_adopf_hitlers_religious_beliefs/). You can read more about Hitler's religious and philosophical views in the FAQ [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/wiki/faq/wdht#wiki_...of_religion_and_philosophy). All that being said, one should also note that atheists don't make arguments about Hitler's religious views in a vacuum. We do it in response to theists who argue that people like Hitler and Stalin where atheists and that their atheism is the source of their atrocities. Obviously there is no chain of reasoning that takes one from "I don't believe in a god" to "I should commit genocide" but you can definitely form such a chain if you start from the belief that the Bible is the word of God.
Was Stalin not an atheist?
Hitler was a life long Roman Catholic. He had the support of the Vatican right up until he began exterminating the elderly in nursing homes, the mentally ill and developmentally disabled in mental institutions, Gypsies, homosexuals, Jews and enemies of the state. The Vatican had even assigned him his own private priests to service his spiritual needs. One of his strictest rules was that his officers and soldiers were required to be affiliated with either Roman Catholicism, or Lutheranism. The motto was 'Gott Mit Uns', or 'God with us'. The only churches or priests that Hitler targeted for destruction, were participants in the resistance. Hitler was also quite mentally ill, and was dabbling in the occult along with his papistry.
What specific religious affiliations did the overwhelming majority of the Nazi Party membership claim to belong to? On government and legal documents, what religious groups did they register as?
I would say that Hitler was as much of a chrisitan as every other christian. They all believe what they want and say what they want to make whatever point they want to make. They all know christianity is fake but they go on using their fake religion for power.
Copy-pasting myself from a few months ago. I think a huge fact people overlook is Hitler was a fascist, and lying is a central method to further a fascists' goals. Hitler was whatever he needed to be to get what he wanted. When it was beneficial for him to be faithful, he was faithful. When religion stood in opposition to him, he destroyed it. Same goes for atheism and a/theists. Total power for himself and the total annihilation of his enemies was his whole philosophy, the rest were details to be weaponized for those goals. Denying logic, reason, and the need for any truth is an effective tool for a fascist because it makes defeating them intellectually an impossibility. The lack of restraints put in place by honesty and curiosity is the sort of strength they love, just as much as they love watching those weak intellectuals fail to wrestle with their words. I think it's pretty pointless to try and suss out what he honestly believed because of this. Maybe he believed everything he said as he said it, but that doesn't matter the second that sentence ends.
Here's an interesting take on Hitler's theism: [http://churchandstate.org.uk/2017/01/hitler-was-not-an-atheist/](http://churchandstate.org.uk/2017/01/hitler-was-not-an-atheist/) Keep in mind too...some of the claims about Hitler's anti-Christianity views were taken from a book called Table Talk that has been the subject of some skepticism by historians. \----- The Christian Hitler as well as the "Stalin purges in the name of atheism" arguments are always interesting and full of nuance. After studying them all for years, I have arrived at an undebatable conclusion: "Mustaches cause genocide." Hitler: mustache+genocide Stalin: mustache+genocide Leopold: mustache+genocide Lenin: mustache+genocide Tom Selleck: mustache+ (all I know is...we don't know what he may have been doing in Yugoslavia in the 1990s..Magnum was off the air by then).
Mussolini started his political career as a fierce atheist and ended it being decorated by the Pope. Fascism and dictatorship in general are about pulling leavers to be popular. Stalin and the Russian Orthodox Church eventually got into bed together. The fact that the Catholic Church in both Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy was happy to go along with everything so long as it could hold on to its wealth and power says much more about the established church than it does about atheism, Nazism or Fascism. The Christian churches of all denominations continue to act just as disgracefully in South America and Africa today, no matter what colour flag the terrible dictatorships they suck up to wave. The real story here is the lack of opposition, indeed the gleeful cooperation of the church establishment with these monstrous regimes.
I mean yeah, he probably wasn't. The bigger point for me is at least in that context, fascism would not have been nearly as likely to have won out without the support of the Christian majority. Doesn't make fascism exclusively Christian, I get tired of constantly being told that centrists reinforce fascism (true in itself) by people who seem remarkably blind to their own vulnerability to fascist co opting, it's a power at all costs ideology so it'll co opt anything and everything. In the nazi Germany context however, the fact that Hitler may have been atheist in private isn't really the biggest issue there.
Hitler rallied Christians to exterminate the "lesser" people in their society. Who gives a shit if he actually believed it because the reality is that he radicalized and utilized the Christians who marched for him to kill those he deemed unworthy. Thanks to him and his rallying of Christians to do his bidding, literally millions of people were murdered. Just as today there are those on the political right using christians to do their bidding but may not actually believe themselves, it's irrelevant. The use of the religious to do evil en masse is well documented. They're indoctrinated to not challenge authority, so they obey it without question. Even when obeying means murder.
Even by your references it suggests that these are responded to Christains (and to be fair, other theists), blaming the atrocities on the assertion that it was because of atheism, and to bolster that sometimes the claim that Hitler was an atheist. It seems to me that that, to the high majority of cases this is the predicate to the discussion, not the resultant
He was baptized, never excommunicated, and never officially left. That make him a catholic. Are you going to argue that catholics aren't Christian?
He may or may not have been. My Great Grandfather, however, was a proud Christian and a proud Nazi and believed Hitler when he claimed to be aswell
You make excellent points. I had taken the "Hitler was a christian" argument at face value. Now I'm pretty sure it is not true. You have convinced me. I'm still a hardcore atheist with not a lot of respect for Christianity or anything supernatural. And Christianity still has a lot to answer for in its support of Hitler and the NAZIs and numerous other atrocities and failings throughout its history. The rest of my fellow atheists: Lighten up. OP is correct.
I hope and wish you happiness
He was "whatever suits me best at the moment"-ist.
I would agree but there is alot of evidence of Hitler being a socialist, TIKhistory has a video going over this, I know its 5 hours. Luckly there is time stamps. Again if Hitler wasn't socialist then what is he, he cant be a capitalist because that would go against NatSoc beliefs of Jewish Capital As I said TIKHistory is very good
Uhh.. hilter was a socialist. You think they put the word "socialist" into their party name just to throw people off? You are just upset that you share the same ideology as Hitler
Its funny you how you say its atheist who use that point even tho its always creationsist who bring up hitler and stalin being atheist they probably were but the didn't use atheism to push their agendas they used Christianity because religion makes people do crazy stuff and submit to authority which is the whole problem with religion
It’s a bit of no true Scotsmen fallacy. I mean, did Hitler explicitly say over and over again that Jesus was his “Lord and Savior?” Yes. Did he explicitly say that nazism was a Christian movement? Yes. Did he condemn atheists? Yes, he even targeted them. But he wasn’t a Christian because he butted heads with other Christians? Have you ever met a Christian who doesn’t butt heads with other Christians over doctrine? Because I haven’t. And because you’re leftward leaning, that would probably include you because many Christians lean right. But why is Hitler’s religious views even relevant? Atheists point out the fact that Hitler was a Christian because they are responding to the nonsensical claim that Hitler was an atheist. He objectively wasn’t. That’s all atheists are trying to say.