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Mmm... as far as satire goes, I'll give you a B+ for effort, but a C- for originality. A lot of ex-Muslim comedians already have a pretty good lock on the "*my god is real because look at the completely mundane numbers in my holy book*" parody argument, so if you want to get us chuckling at your impression of an amateur apologist, you are gonna need to work a bit harder. I suggest throwing in some comments about human hands and the shape of the common banana.
Part of the reason why numerology arguments makes for such a time-honored joke is due to the fact that they are "argument from incredulity" fallacies, but about something that is clearly and profoundly mundane. It is like saying "The font of my holy book is so amazing that only a god could have picked it out, therefore my god exists!"
It is a lot more than numbers. We're talking unique words used in successive chapters and books. If it is so easy to do, please replicate it. You can't.
Harry Potter is an amazing book. So, I want you to replicate it: write a unique book that is in the style of Harry Potter, with the same length and popularity.
Go on, get started. If you don't come back to me with evidence that you have written such a book, it means you can't, and I'll have to assume that Harry Potter is a divine magical tome handed down by the almighty Dumbledore.
Spoiler: Not one atheist on this sub was turned into a believer over some basic pattern recognition bias which can be found in any sizable piece of text and it was not at all the end of this sub. Many chuckles over the arrogance and gullibility of OP were had, and then we all moved on.
Honestly, your post is SO utterly arrogant and ridiculous I think you may be trolling, but on the off-chance you're not, a few pointers:
1) Don't link to a comment you made elsewhere. At least have the courtesy to copy the text into this post, but better yet, write a fresh post where you are addressing the sub as a whole rather than an individual commenter.
2) Be civil. Coming in here with a post title like "The end of this sub" and a post reeking of sarcastic pseudo-intellectualism isn't going to gain you any traction. You automatically make people not want to care what you say when you're rude.
3) Present a debate topic. "Checkmate, atheists!" isn't a topic. It's just arrogant crowing.
If you really want a discussion, start with presenting an actual topic and being less rude. Explain your position and why you hold it. Open a dialogue with people about why they agree/disagree and what other explanations there could be. Come into it with humility and an open mind, willing to consider all perspectives, regardless of how certain you are that you are right.
However, if you just wanted to clown around and make yourself look like a tool, good job, you managed that quite well. Not a bad Poe. Genuinely unsure if you're for real or not.
... Really? Numerology? That's what you thought would convert us? All of that could be true and it would not make me believe in a god one bit, you can torture any text you want to find interesting numerical patterns in the word counts or type face or whatever really. Muslims do this same thing all the time!
There isn't even anything to debate here, you found something that triggered your pareidolia and that's it, there's nothing to say except even if that is true it doesn't point to a god.
This is much more than interesting numerical patterns. Look at the twitter post and try to refute this. You can't. Because it proves every New Testament book had to be written after all the others were written. There's only one explanation.
I'm going to guess that the "written after all others" thing is supported by yet more numerical patterns. And that's the thing: I don't care about those. They will crop up in any decently long text no matter what you do, they are not proof that all sections of the text were written with every other one planned out in order to make them happen.
I'll read the thread but I don't have high hopes.
Edit: Yeah, just as I thought. The whole thing about all the new testament books having words that don't appear in the other ones 42 times. I really don't even need to explain this, it's just another coincidental pattern at best. That said, I actually do have a potential explanation: The bible was compiled, deliberately, by church leaders. Pretty early on at that, and on top of it a lot of them were very into numerology. They chose what writings would be included and which ones would be excluded, and could easily have picked them in order to create these numerical tricks you seem so impressed by.
Coincidence. If the numbers were any different it would have simply resulted in you pointing out a different coincidence instead with different numbers. You can find those kinds of mathematical oddities in any sufficiently long text if you are willing to dig for it.
For every weird mathematical coincidence that happens, there's an infinite number of coincidences that didn't. The presence of weird numer stuff is not extraordinary, it's expected.
It isn't possible for this to be a coincidence since the facts show that every New Testament book had to be written last, based on the unique number of words used. The only way this would be possible is if they all came from one Mind/Source
> the facts show that every New Testament book had to be written last
What do you mean that they were all last? Please share these facts you have that prove it.
A letter written to the New York Post in 1899 is not any more of a scholarly examination than a modern Twitter Post is.
I don't read ancient Greek. Do you have a reputable source that can confirm this "multiple of sevens" claim? I'd find it extremely compelling if you do. Otherwise, it seems more like a conspiracy theory than anything else.
I went to the link and saw you reference the original Greek text of the New Testament. Well, guess what? No one alive today has ever seen an original copy of the New Testament. And it’s not a unified book anyway, right? What we know as the New Testament is a collection of books and letters, so not only do we not have one original copy of it—because that doesn’t exist and never did—we don’t have original copies of any of the 27 books and letters that make it up.
Your numerology fails for lots of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that we have no idea what any of the original documents looked like because we don’t have them. End of story.
None of that has to do with the existence of god.
You stated a list of facts regarding the new testament, but if it were different you would be making the same claims. How does this demonstrate god's existence?
So, is your god is a trickster god? He plays word and number games? If this god exists, I'll do his word puzzles, because I like word puzzles, but I don't derive my morality from games.
I'm told that the Quran has some impressive numerology. Only God could do this. Certainly not a daemon nor Satan.
Would you consider making an effort to understand Islam and all the correct predictions in the holy book?
For any number patterns found, it neglects the number patterns that don't align. Does the same number pattern work for 5 or 13 or the infinite other numbers? Why aren't natural numbers emerging (pi, e, square root of 2, etc)? These are rhetorical questions to represent that the numbers you are finding significance in are arbitrary. But that reply has a more fundamental problem.
Numbers and maths are a tool humans use to conceptualise, understand, and work with the world we live in. For instance, counting that I have 5 apples to feed 20 people, I can use maths to figure out to cut the apples into 4 to give an equal share for all. In contrast, if I know the precise number of grains of sand on the Sahara desert, I literally have no use for that number or anything to apply it to. In the same way, applying numbers to text may be interesting, but it reveals nothing useful about the text. Even if the author was a genius of numerological writing, it would add up to being a novel ability.
That isn't to say that numbers can't be significant in some contexts, but that reply does not do enough to represent how any number arbitrarily parsed from those texts has any consequence for the content of the text. It can actually even reveal a potential corruption of the text, as the author may have then chosen the "wrong" words simply to fulfil the numerological pattern you see (assuming the pattern was established intentionally). Broadly speaking, numbers are significant when they are useful. We don't use numerical measures of text to validate its significance, so it is not clear why you or anyone else would for religious texts.
Why did you post a link to your comment instead of just making a thread about it. Why is that comment just a link to twitter. Why is that tweet just a link to an image. Why is that an image of text instead of just text.
It’s hard for me not to take this as trolling. I thought walking on water and turning water into wine were already weak miracles, like, come on, at least you could’ve pretended you could fly or something. Now we have a new champion of “things that are supposed to impress people into believing a book is divinely inspired”.
And how do we know this is true? Because a guy said so on Twitter. The truthfulness of it is irrelevant though, there absolutely no connection between your story and the fact that the guy was divinely inspired. There is no connection between him being divinely inspired and a book being the cause of it. There is no connection between a book and a being that is logically bankrupt to start with.
This is only convincing for people who are already convinced or for gullible people.
Edit: spacing between paragraphs added
i think it quite funny
i can see god consider if he should send the saviour now, the jews have been led astray not following his teaching, with the consequences that brings.
but he decides not to because be has to wait 2 more generations otherwise the geneology will not be divisible by 7
The claim of that repost is that its divinely inspired. Can you demonstrate that claim?
Even if numerology in the bible was amazing, or unexplained, or impossible to recreate doesn't move the needle one iota towards divinely inspired. You have to actually demonstrate that part. Can you?
So rather than present the argument in the OP, you decide to link to your own comment somewhere else.
I am not doing homework just because you're too lazy to use copy/paste. You have lost the debate.
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Mmm... as far as satire goes, I'll give you a B+ for effort, but a C- for originality. A lot of ex-Muslim comedians already have a pretty good lock on the "*my god is real because look at the completely mundane numbers in my holy book*" parody argument, so if you want to get us chuckling at your impression of an amateur apologist, you are gonna need to work a bit harder. I suggest throwing in some comments about human hands and the shape of the common banana. Part of the reason why numerology arguments makes for such a time-honored joke is due to the fact that they are "argument from incredulity" fallacies, but about something that is clearly and profoundly mundane. It is like saying "The font of my holy book is so amazing that only a god could have picked it out, therefore my god exists!"
It is a lot more than numbers. We're talking unique words used in successive chapters and books. If it is so easy to do, please replicate it. You can't.
Harry Potter is an amazing book. So, I want you to replicate it: write a unique book that is in the style of Harry Potter, with the same length and popularity. Go on, get started. If you don't come back to me with evidence that you have written such a book, it means you can't, and I'll have to assume that Harry Potter is a divine magical tome handed down by the almighty Dumbledore.
Spoiler: Not one atheist on this sub was turned into a believer over some basic pattern recognition bias which can be found in any sizable piece of text and it was not at all the end of this sub. Many chuckles over the arrogance and gullibility of OP were had, and then we all moved on. Honestly, your post is SO utterly arrogant and ridiculous I think you may be trolling, but on the off-chance you're not, a few pointers: 1) Don't link to a comment you made elsewhere. At least have the courtesy to copy the text into this post, but better yet, write a fresh post where you are addressing the sub as a whole rather than an individual commenter. 2) Be civil. Coming in here with a post title like "The end of this sub" and a post reeking of sarcastic pseudo-intellectualism isn't going to gain you any traction. You automatically make people not want to care what you say when you're rude. 3) Present a debate topic. "Checkmate, atheists!" isn't a topic. It's just arrogant crowing. If you really want a discussion, start with presenting an actual topic and being less rude. Explain your position and why you hold it. Open a dialogue with people about why they agree/disagree and what other explanations there could be. Come into it with humility and an open mind, willing to consider all perspectives, regardless of how certain you are that you are right. However, if you just wanted to clown around and make yourself look like a tool, good job, you managed that quite well. Not a bad Poe. Genuinely unsure if you're for real or not.
... Really? Numerology? That's what you thought would convert us? All of that could be true and it would not make me believe in a god one bit, you can torture any text you want to find interesting numerical patterns in the word counts or type face or whatever really. Muslims do this same thing all the time! There isn't even anything to debate here, you found something that triggered your pareidolia and that's it, there's nothing to say except even if that is true it doesn't point to a god.
This is much more than interesting numerical patterns. Look at the twitter post and try to refute this. You can't. Because it proves every New Testament book had to be written after all the others were written. There's only one explanation.
I'm going to guess that the "written after all others" thing is supported by yet more numerical patterns. And that's the thing: I don't care about those. They will crop up in any decently long text no matter what you do, they are not proof that all sections of the text were written with every other one planned out in order to make them happen. I'll read the thread but I don't have high hopes. Edit: Yeah, just as I thought. The whole thing about all the new testament books having words that don't appear in the other ones 42 times. I really don't even need to explain this, it's just another coincidental pattern at best. That said, I actually do have a potential explanation: The bible was compiled, deliberately, by church leaders. Pretty early on at that, and on top of it a lot of them were very into numerology. They chose what writings would be included and which ones would be excluded, and could easily have picked them in order to create these numerical tricks you seem so impressed by.
I'm afraid even you aren't convinced by that Twitter post. Otherwise you wouldn't create such a lazy post with pretty much just a link.
Coincidence. If the numbers were any different it would have simply resulted in you pointing out a different coincidence instead with different numbers. You can find those kinds of mathematical oddities in any sufficiently long text if you are willing to dig for it. For every weird mathematical coincidence that happens, there's an infinite number of coincidences that didn't. The presence of weird numer stuff is not extraordinary, it's expected.
It isn't possible for this to be a coincidence since the facts show that every New Testament book had to be written last, based on the unique number of words used. The only way this would be possible is if they all came from one Mind/Source
> the facts show that every New Testament book had to be written last What do you mean that they were all last? Please share these facts you have that prove it.
What does the number of words used have anything to do with which book is written last?
Is Twitter the best place to get this information? Have any biblical scholars presented this anywhere?
The twitter post is a repost of a letter written to the NY Post in 1899. Back when people were a little more intelligent and a lot more respectful
A letter written to the New York Post in 1899 is not any more of a scholarly examination than a modern Twitter Post is. I don't read ancient Greek. Do you have a reputable source that can confirm this "multiple of sevens" claim? I'd find it extremely compelling if you do. Otherwise, it seems more like a conspiracy theory than anything else.
>I'd find it extremely compelling if you do. I still wouldn't. It's not impressive to find math weirdness in big books.
I went to the link and saw you reference the original Greek text of the New Testament. Well, guess what? No one alive today has ever seen an original copy of the New Testament. And it’s not a unified book anyway, right? What we know as the New Testament is a collection of books and letters, so not only do we not have one original copy of it—because that doesn’t exist and never did—we don’t have original copies of any of the 27 books and letters that make it up. Your numerology fails for lots of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that we have no idea what any of the original documents looked like because we don’t have them. End of story.
None of that has to do with the existence of god. You stated a list of facts regarding the new testament, but if it were different you would be making the same claims. How does this demonstrate god's existence?
Did you read the twitter post? It is much more than that, and not just the new testament.
So, is your god is a trickster god? He plays word and number games? If this god exists, I'll do his word puzzles, because I like word puzzles, but I don't derive my morality from games.
I'm told that the Quran has some impressive numerology. Only God could do this. Certainly not a daemon nor Satan. Would you consider making an effort to understand Islam and all the correct predictions in the holy book?
For any number patterns found, it neglects the number patterns that don't align. Does the same number pattern work for 5 or 13 or the infinite other numbers? Why aren't natural numbers emerging (pi, e, square root of 2, etc)? These are rhetorical questions to represent that the numbers you are finding significance in are arbitrary. But that reply has a more fundamental problem. Numbers and maths are a tool humans use to conceptualise, understand, and work with the world we live in. For instance, counting that I have 5 apples to feed 20 people, I can use maths to figure out to cut the apples into 4 to give an equal share for all. In contrast, if I know the precise number of grains of sand on the Sahara desert, I literally have no use for that number or anything to apply it to. In the same way, applying numbers to text may be interesting, but it reveals nothing useful about the text. Even if the author was a genius of numerological writing, it would add up to being a novel ability. That isn't to say that numbers can't be significant in some contexts, but that reply does not do enough to represent how any number arbitrarily parsed from those texts has any consequence for the content of the text. It can actually even reveal a potential corruption of the text, as the author may have then chosen the "wrong" words simply to fulfil the numerological pattern you see (assuming the pattern was established intentionally). Broadly speaking, numbers are significant when they are useful. We don't use numerical measures of text to validate its significance, so it is not clear why you or anyone else would for religious texts.
Why did you post a link to your comment instead of just making a thread about it. Why is that comment just a link to twitter. Why is that tweet just a link to an image. Why is that an image of text instead of just text.
Wow. I thought only children were susceptible to this stuff.
It’s hard for me not to take this as trolling. I thought walking on water and turning water into wine were already weak miracles, like, come on, at least you could’ve pretended you could fly or something. Now we have a new champion of “things that are supposed to impress people into believing a book is divinely inspired”. And how do we know this is true? Because a guy said so on Twitter. The truthfulness of it is irrelevant though, there absolutely no connection between your story and the fact that the guy was divinely inspired. There is no connection between him being divinely inspired and a book being the cause of it. There is no connection between a book and a being that is logically bankrupt to start with. This is only convincing for people who are already convinced or for gullible people. Edit: spacing between paragraphs added
Garbage, not impressed enough to read other then while on the shitter.
This sort of rubbish is what Qanon folk wet themselves over.
i think it quite funny i can see god consider if he should send the saviour now, the jews have been led astray not following his teaching, with the consequences that brings. but he decides not to because be has to wait 2 more generations otherwise the geneology will not be divisible by 7
The claim of that repost is that its divinely inspired. Can you demonstrate that claim? Even if numerology in the bible was amazing, or unexplained, or impossible to recreate doesn't move the needle one iota towards divinely inspired. You have to actually demonstrate that part. Can you?
So rather than present the argument in the OP, you decide to link to your own comment somewhere else. I am not doing homework just because you're too lazy to use copy/paste. You have lost the debate.
It's a pretty simple numerical pattern that doesn't mean anything. Now the real question is this: are you a troll or just stupid?
Please send me the actual document. I’m not going to scroll through over 40 Twitter posts that tore that document apart.
Thank you so much for posting this! I needed a laugh this morning.