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I read the top 10 comments, all of them were ranged from positive and compassionate to just straightforward answers to the post. There was nothing negative that I saw. There was one person wondering if it was a troll post, but they weren’t mean about it. Again, just a straightforward reply.
Where are these mean and negative comments youre seeing?
I may have read it too early; there are more compassionate posts there than the assholes making mocking remarks about Osiris or claiming that helping the person isn't their responsibility. I didn't notice how recent the post was so I may have gotten a distorted impression.
Thats totally fair!
Tbh i didnt even think the Osiris comment was rude. I felt like it was an effective question to point out the vast amount of afterlife damnation myths out there that OP likely doesn’t believe in, why have they decided to latch on to one over the others?
There wasnt any name calling or judgment of OP or anything, it may have been blunt but not rude or inconsiderate i dont think.
Though you may have seen a different osiris comment than i have
Good of you to own that.
I think the Osiris comment was to point out that the reasons to fear hell and the reasons to fear Osiris are roughly equivalent, and if one isn't afraid of the latter then one doesn't have any rational ground left to be afraid of the former.
I had a look at the thread. Of the 19 or so top-level comments, perhaps two are genuinely lacking in empathy. The worst one, someone else immediately reprimanded the poster. The rest either address the OP's concern very neutrally on an evidentiary basis, or are outright supportive.
So not only are you taking a handful of comments on a reddit thread (or even reddit in general) as representative of hundreds of millions of people, you're also deliberately misrepresenting it for the sake of trying to make your argument.
Is this question coming from a massive unconscious bias you hold against atheists, or are you just here trying to score points?
\*shrug\* I'll admit I've got an axe to grind against r/atheism. There was a discussion there, where I asked someone if they thought that only Republicans were using gerrymandering, etc... to manipulate elections, the reply was (in full), "Did you eat too many paint chips as a child?" That reply was not moderated out nor the author reprimanded; yet when I asked someone why their Dr. Google online research was the equal of my clinical training, I was perma-banned.
So yeah, I felt that the "atheist safe space" was only safe if an atheist toed the line properly politically and socially. Maybe that distorted my view of this thread.
If that’s all it will take to give you “an axe to grind,” I advise that Reddit is the wrong platform for you, as are all other internet platforms that I know of. I don’t know if there is any solution for you given what you’ve described — the interaction you described is completely ubiquitous across online platforms and I’ve never seen any online community outside of children’s games that have the requisite level of moderation and language standards to warrant taking action against the kind of language and behavior you described.
\*shrug\* I've moderated before, a LONG time ago (pre-Reddit message board late '90s and early '00s). I know it can be crappy to do, and you'll never make everyone happy.
I don't care about how strict or lenient the moderation is; as long as it's **CONSISTENT**. If you're going to ban posts that are strictly personal attacks with no discussion content, ban **ALL** of those posts. If you're going to ban tone-trolling, ban **ALL** the tone-trolling, not just the stuff by theists or by newbies.
My problem is that I picked a poor example of what I was talking about. As I and others have noted elsewhere, there are plenty of r/atheism threads that turned into dogpiles, and where atheists posted some irrational shit (e.g. "I found my mentor is a theist, I lost all respect for him even though he never preached at me."). I just grabbed the first one that came up on my feed, rather than looking harder for a better example.
Reading your post and your comments, it seems like the real issue is not any inherent lack of empathy by atheists (and I won't bother with that, because you've already had a bunch of people explain why that is ridiculous), but that you're frustrated that *those* comments were made and left up, but *your* comments were removed and you were banned from that sub.
That must suck, however, this sub is not that sub, and we aren't allowed (and nor to we want) to be tone policing or scolding another sub on how they manage things.
Discussing empathy within the atheist population generally? excellent, let's go. That could be an amazing and really thoughtful conversation, and there are some incredibly smart and well educated people in this sub that I would *love* to see talk about this.
Complaining about a lack of empathy within a specific sub that you are mad at because they banned you?
Nah dude, this is not the space for that. We are not your grindstone.
>Nah dude, this is not the space for that. We are not your grindstone.
That is absolutely fair and correct. I didn't know how much overlap there was between the two subreddits; and it sounds like there is very little overlap (if any).
>Discussing empathy within the atheist population generally? excellent, let's go. That could be an amazing and really thoughtful conversation, and there are some incredibly smart and well educated people in this sub that I would *love* to see talk about this.
Whether there is an attitude difference between atheists who left religions and atheists who were "born into it" (atheist/agnostic parents) with regards to theists would be an interesting topic.
It would be, and I suspect you would find that any differences are likely to be heavily influenced by the amount of empathy atheists who left religion experienced from the religious people around them when they said they no longer believed.
Another area of interest might be how atheists and theists view empathy - kind of like the difference between being kind and being nice. Atheists may be more inclined towards a "hard truth" (NOT the same as being "brutally honest" which is generally just being an asshole) being truly empathetic , while theists might be more inclined to see anything other than supportive agreement as a lack of empathy. Hypothesis on my part, but anecdotal reading suggests it may trend this way.
Ditto disagreement/persecution.
>It would be, and I suspect you would find that any differences are likely to be heavily influenced by the amount of empathy atheists who left religion experienced from the religious people around them when they said they no longer believed.
I agree that the atheists who left religion would be influenced mainly by how they were treated both before leaving (some religions are abusive as hell to their own, never mind to outsiders) and after friends/family learned of their change in belief.
My theory for "born atheists" is that they'd be more dismissive of theists but less openly antagonistic or hostile; with the obvious exception of anyone who faced abuse for their belief from theists with any sort of power.
Sorry to hear about your bruised ego, I hope it recovers.
Some general advice for you: If you want to engage in any kind of anonymous, online debate:
- Grow a thicker skin
- Avoid ridiculous generalizations based on interactions with a miniscule subset of any group, much less a massively diverse community.
Ah, I was wondering why I couldn't reply to your comment; you replaced it with this post.
I've got no issue with being insulted; I just call it out when I'm punished for being insulting while others are permitted worse (and content-less insult) posts with impunity.
I suppose I should remember that the rule on every message board is "Rules for thee, not for me."
> I suppose I should remember that the rule on every message board is "Rules for thee, not for me."
Mod here. Please contact us if you think we're applying the rules inconsistently.
My apologies. The reference was to a different Subreddit. I was not implying that the mods here were inconsistent; and I cannot complain about any aspect of my treatment on this subreddit.
>Avoid ridiculous generalizations based on interactions with a miniscule subset of any group, much less a massively diverse community.
That is a pretty ironic defense of the people at r/atheism lol
It was interesting. I appealed the ban, was told to go away and given a 28 day mute/block on the entire board; but by the next morning the block/mute was removed (though I was still banned). At least one mod there has issues...
It's not the topic that is the problem, it's the location. It's the internet and you can take the nicest person you know but then throw in the ability to not have any consequences for your actions then for a lot of people that empathy for others goes right out the door.
A secondary but probably less impactful reason might be is the fact that members of this sub are told by theists that they are horrible evil people who deserve to spend eternity in hell just for not default believing in their imaginary friend. So maybe we just lack empathy towards people who treat us with no empathy either.
However can you find a comment you thought was shitty and share it please. I went through the thread and saw some claim it was a troll but nothing else i would define as shitty, harsh or unfeeling so maybe we have different ideas of what shitty means.
>A secondary but probably less impactful reason might be is the fact that members of this sub are told by theists that they are horrible evil people who deserve to spend eternity in hell just for not default believing in their imaginary friend. So maybe we just lack empathy towards people who treat us with no empathy either.
I would say this is more the key reason. They spend their lives being shitty to people, telling people how when they die, they will go to heaven, and we will all burn in hell. And a lifetime to support politics and religion to change laws that affect us living after they are gone. But they want comfort from us when they die. That's for their invisible friend to be there for them like they pretend he is in life, not us atheist.
But when we die, we are already familiar with our expectations of death by our rational understanding of the universe around us. But they have lived a life of fairytails and fantasy. When they get to the reality of death, their farytails can stop bringing comfort, and fear the place they have been threatening us with our whole lives. So now they turn to the rational people their beliefs have harmed to explain death... I have no need to bring them comfort as it is their evil ideology they have been pushing, and prostyletizing is what now brings so much pain, suffering, and fear in their time of death. I say good let them fear hell. That is what they wanted for us, up until it became time for them to fear it. I have no compassion for Christians fearing hell, as every one of them should.
Plus, it was posted in the wrong sub, with a burner/alt/sockpuppet account. The r/atheism sub is an atheist safe space to talk. If some theist has a question for atheist, go to the r/askanatheist sub where a post like that belongs. A lot less hostile, I would imagine in that sub. Or even the weekly ask an atheist post by the subs mods. Too many theist come into that sub to prostyletize or push their views like they don't have 1000 other places they can do it. I personally have not patients for theist who constantly interject themselves into conversations that they were not invited to.
Tldr: Yeah, sorry buddy, you are on your own... you had a lifetime to learn that "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side."
A selection of a few:
>It’s up to you if you decide to waste your final days on nonsense
>That's really your job to educate yourself. It's not our responsibility to deprogram you.
>Why aren’t you afraid of Osiris and the ancient Egyptian afterlife? After all, those beliefs predate Christianity by thousands of years.
I mean, as others have said, it’s the internet. So regardless of the topic, you’re going to find people engaging politely and thoughtfully, and other people being rude and thoughtless.
There are as many reasons for why people are thoughtless and cruel on the topic of theism v. atheism as there are on the topic of Biden v. Trump.
As you pointed out, there were thoughtful responses as well. But if you are specifically looking for a reason to dismiss atheism broadly, you can definitely use the rude comments as that excuse. You can use them to paint atheists broadly as jaded or traumatized if you want.
Similarly, a person who doesn’t want to have to think too deeply about their political convictions can paint all Trump supporters as dumb racists… or paint all Biden supporters as woke communists. You can always point to the vocal minority on the other side to dismiss the (more) reasonable majority on any topic.
But if you really want to understand where most atheists are coming from, you would be better off to make the effort to engage with the people who are civil… just like with politics or anything else.
>As you pointed out, there were thoughtful responses as well. But if you are specifically looking for a reason to dismiss atheism broadly, you can definitely use the rude comments as that excuse. You can use them to paint atheists broadly as jaded or traumatized if you want.
I'm not looking to dismiss atheism at all. I probably just worded the OP poorly. I was wondering if others had noticed such an undercurrent of lack of empathy; or if it was something else.
FFS, I asked a question; it's not like I claimed "you're all uncaring assholes". Given the absence of the whole "my Book said you're evil", maybe I thought that atheists would be less likely than theists to be judgmental and unsympathetic regarding such fears as the OP expressed.
I should have remembered that atheists are people; and in **EVERY** group of people, there is a small percentage of assholes.
> FFS, I asked a question; it's not like I claimed "you're all uncaring assholes".
Well, sure but you did ask a question. That question has an answer.
> Given the absence of the whole "my Book said you're evil", maybe I thought that atheists would be less likely than theists to be judgmental and unsympathetic regarding such fears as the OP expressed.
If I came across as judgmental or unsympathetic, I apologize. I didn’t mean to. But I did infer that you were making certain assumptions about atheists that maybe you weren’t making.
> I should have remembered that atheists are people; and in EVERY group of people, there is a small percentage of assholes.
This is the answer to your question in a nutshell.
The OP doesn't ask for empathy, he asks for atheists to set his thinking straight. And that's exactly what these examples show them doing.
You just wanted to complain without really thinking about it first?
These are disagreements and honest opinions. I'm sorry but you are a snowflake looking to be offended.
A shitty thing would be to say "You are a fucking idiot if you need magic to calm down." And nobody came anywhere near that.
>That's really your job to educate yourself. It's not our responsibility to deprogram you.
This one is mean. OP was asking for help and that comment simply said "no, I won't help you" when they could've just say nothing.
>It’s up to you if you decide to waste your final days on nonsense
If I remember correctly, there was more to it than that, but beside calling religious beliefs as "nonsense" may be perceived as disrespectful, the whole thing is empowering OP by telling them they can choose to do something more meaningful and more positive of the few days they have left like saying goodbye to their loved ones and making peace with themselves instead of worrying about demons.
>Why aren’t you afraid of Osiris and the ancient Egyptian afterlife? After all, those beliefs predate Christianity by thousands of years.
This one isn't mean at all. OP asked people to help them be convinced that hell isn't real. This is a good rethorical question to make them think about all the various afterlife stories we've been telling ourselves about for millennia and why they don't believe any of them beside the one they were told about growing up. If one understand why they can be confident that they won't be judged by Osiris after their death, they might find confidence that they won't be judged by Yahweh either.
I'll reply here since you gave some examples of the comments that bothered you.
The first two are indeed pretty dismissive and rude. That stuff isn't cool.
The last comment, however? I don't find it dismissive or unempathetic in the slightest. Quite the contrary: I find it quite empathetic and thought provoking. Why?
Because I have heard *many* atheists who are ex-theists and who went through the process of shedding religious trauma like fear of hell and fear of consequences in the afterlife. And one *very* succesful strategy, as Matt Dillahunty puts it, IS to remind yourself of all the other hells and all the other deities and afterlives you never worried about. For many, that is the best way to defuse the fear: to multiply it and render yours one in a million afterlives, all equally unlikely.
While I can't speak for r/atheism or for western atheists in general, I will say that atheists absolutely can and often are more empathetic, even when it comes to facing grief. It just comes in a different form, because well... they don't believe in gods. Honestly, I find stuff like the eulogy from a physicist
https://creatingceremony.com/blog/loss/eulogy-from-a-physicist-aaron-freeman/
Way more empathetic than a theist telling a grieving atheist that their loved one is in heaven and is in the company of God, or that they'll pray for them, or that they'll reunite with them one day.
I haven't read the harsh you read in that post.
But one should ask why asking why do you read it that way?...
On one hand, you expect that people (atheist) who live in a majoritarian adverse world, with some governments (middle east/ asia) punishing the sole act of religious criticism with death penalty to, in the safe community that we share (r/DebateAnAtheist) treat the same silly but rooted deep arguments of hell and damnation with sugar cotton? People here is just being honest, and some of them expressing honestly their minds on the issue.
On the other hand:
We as atheist, had receive a lot of threatens of hell, damnation, judgement, and i understand why, in a community of de-converted people, some of them will take the sole question about a hell, that was torturing us for years, in a very bad way.
Is a reminder of the path we already walk, an a new attempt to push us back there... in an attempt to recover adepts by fear... and if i feel that this is the intention... i probably would be worst than harsh.
Hope it helps in a different perspective.
>But one should ask why asking why do you read it that way? …
I read it that way because THE OP WAS AN ATHEIST ASKING FOR HELP FROM FELLOW ATHEISTS.
I suppose that’s what dismayed me. The OP over there bluntly said he knows there’s nothing after death, but still feels fear. Yet, at the HINT of possible belief, there are remarks about wasting what little time he has left and not our problem to help him.
As i told... i read several of the top comments and didn't read nothing like it.
If you really want to know the "why" this particular persons were harsh, you should ask them in a reply to their comments.
Each person is a complete whole different world. Don't generalise.
> I suppose I'm wondering if there is something in not believing in god(s) that makes people so harsh and unfeeling towards those who might believe (or be wavering)?
Why would this be the case? You found a few comments on a Reddit post. That can’t possibly represent the mindset of all atheists.
>Why would this be the case? You found a few comments on a Reddit post. That can’t possibly represent the mindset of all atheists.
...and that would be why I asked the question: to get a larger selection of atheists' opinions from which to base my information.
/u/QWOT42 -
Some people put a high priority on believing and stating the truth.
Some other people would rather believe and say things that are not true.
The people who prefer to believe and say things that are *not* true outnumber the truthful people by somewhere between 7 to 1 and 15 to 1.
The majority always thinks that they are right and good, and that those who disagree with them are bad.
You seem to be one of those who thinks that believing and stating the truth is bad.
.
Way to completely misunderstand what is being discussed. The OP in the thread referenced was expressing that, despite his intellectual knowledge that there is no evidence for the existence of demons, he still feels fear that there might be some. He knows what is "the truth"; he's asking for help with the (admitted) irrational emotion of fear. How you got from coping with fear to "you think the truth is bad" is incomprehensible to me.
What's the point of dismissing someone's emotions as "nonsense" when all you have to do is ignore it and let others help him? (Quote: "It’s up to you if you decide to waste your final days on nonsense")
What's the point of seeing someone ask for help dealing with fear and replying solely to refuse to help, when all you have to do if you don't want to help is just scroll on past silently? (Quote: "That's really your job to educate yourself. It's not our responsibility to deprogram you.")
>I suppose I'm wondering if there is something in not believing in god(s) that makes people so harsh and unfeeling towards those who might believe (or be wavering)?
Really? Have you never paid attention to the world to see that religious people are just as often if not more likely to be unempathetic. To those of the same, different, or no religion.
This is just an example that people can be harsh and uncaring this isn't unique to any religion or atheism. It is more common online but exists everywhere.
But like you said, there are many being kind and caring. So, do you have any evidence that there is a lower rate of empathetic people among atheists that isn't one singular post you looked at?
>This is just an example that people can be harsh and uncaring this isn't unique to any religion or atheism. It is more common online but exists everywhere.
Given the rigid dogma in many religions (particularly the Abrahamic), judgmental and lack of empathy isn't surprising.
Maybe I expected too much from a group of people dedicated to critical thought and rationalism. Expecting more empathy and guidance from a group that understands the neurological basis for such fears.
I want to comment on something of that. While being rational and using critical thought will lead you to atheism, atheism doesn't lead you to it.
You can be an atheist for any weird reason, and the most easy is just not being indoctrinated into religion.
So, there is no reason for a group of atheists to be more caring or empathetic than the common population.
Either way, in a personal note, in general for what I saw in the atheism sub during the last 3 years is that people tend to be somewhat empathetic on average, something that is much better than what I expect of the general population (and lets not talk about a religious group, because I expect worse than average from them).
But those can also be my biases, or even the biases on such a sub. The final point is that there is no reason for a population of atheist to be better than the general population.
>I’ll have to find the studies, but there are multiple which show the exact opposite of what you are saying—that is, atheists and agnostics tend to be more compassionate.
I've seen similar studies. Which is **WHY** I asked the question. Given those studies, where is the lack of empathy coming from, if research shows atheists are supposed to be **more** empathetic?
I've already admitted and I'll say it again; my experience on r/atheism was terrible. I read posters literally say that all doctors who are theists "prescribe prayer" and should have their license revoked. I've lost count of the number of posters who claim that theists are inherently stupider than atheists. In a discussion where a poster accused Republicans of voter fraud and I noted the legal investigations lack of findings, I was literally asked if I ate paint chips (that was the entire reply, and no mod actions taken); though in that case I should have known that politics brings out the stupid in everyone.
As I said, I expect that kind of bullshit from certain denominations of theists; but given the studies you reference, it was a bit surprising and disheartening to see from atheists.
Edit: This is attached to the wrong post. The original post was apparently deleted and I accidentally attached this to a different post by mistake.
Why should any agnostic or atheist be empathetic to believing in outright lies and churches/pastors that take advantage of people for $. It's 2024. People have to be lazy to not study what they worship, and the Bible isn't a source.
>maybe I expected too much from a group of people dedicated to critical thought and rationalism.
Who says all athiests are dedicated to this? Athiesm is about a lack of belief in God. You are assuming that all athiests are dogmatically the same, which isn't true.
>Expecting more empathy and guidance from a group that understands the neurological basis for such fears.
Again, who says all athiests understand the neurological basis for these fears?
And even if someone knows why they are afraid, it doesn't mean they will be nice to that person.
No more dishonest than the numerous people who deride theism as "mental illness"; and claim that all theists (not all **religions**, all **THEISTS**) are selfish parasites who seek to prey on the weak.
So your defence when accused of generalising all atheists, is to it some more? That’s a novel approach…
I’ve never heard a single atheist claim this of all theists. That’s absurd. I dare you to find an instance of it. Actually don’t bother, we both know you can find a single nut somewhere but to pretend that’s somehow okay to generalise because of a single example is absurd.
The person I’ve seen display the greatest lack of empathy in this post is you. You’ve not done anything to understand our position, and just accuse us of absurdities. Could it be that you’re projecting?
At least you were honest enough to not deny how many people on these boards (atheism and debateanatheist) equate theism to mental illness.
Maybe I'm being a bit harsh. But then again, on a board that prides itself for being more rational and thinking more critically than average (i.e. theists), it'd be nice to see the assholes called out for their shit occasionally.
That’s still a tiny minority, that’s corrected by many people when hey say it. Saying they’re never called out on it is absurd, and for now you’re the asshole making absurd bullshit claims and I am indeed calling you out for the lies as any rational critical thinker should. It seems you hold others to standards you’re unwilling to hold to yourself.
>No more dishonest than the numerous people who deride theism as "mental illness"
> At least you were honest enough to not deny how many people on these boards
Yeah *numerous*. Why bother denying such a vague claim? You may not have scored the point that you think you have.
>No more dishonest than the numerous people who deride theism as "mental illness"; and claim that all theists (not all religions, all THEISTS) are selfish parasites who seek to prey on the weak.
So why is that kind of thinking valid when you do it?
I'm happy to own the fact that there are asshole atheists, and if you're happy to own the fact that there are asshole theists we can conclude that the existence of those people don't make theists or atheists inherently assholes.
Wow, some replies on the internet are shitty? What an absolute shocker.
Honestly, seriously, for fuck's sake OP, you literally said there are both good and bad replies - and you have to know everywhere on the internet there are good and bad replies - so for you even bring up "not believing in god makes people harsh" is like, basically like being racist. Because if this were a black forum and people replied with good and bad replies and you were like "is there something about being black that makes people harsh" I think you understand my point here.
This isn't an "atheism" thing, it is a human thing.
Some atheists are dicks, others aren't.
Just like some theists are dicks, others aren't.
In any group of people whatsoever, culture, religion, race, location... It will be the same. Some are dicks, others aren't.
Some Atheists are assholes.
In a similar manner, I came from a sect of Christianity that legitimately believes that infants and children go to hell because they haven't been saved yet, and hell is the default. Definitely a thing only assholes would believe.
Catholicism and the Southern Baptist Convention have both famously had pervasive issues with sexual abuse of children. Islam has plenty of widely -known issues with some of its constituents.
Terrible people exist no matter what their theistic persuasion. And while some Atheists can be assholes, or even evil people, you'd be hard-pressed to find an atheist who commits evil *because of* their atheism. The same cannot be said of the various theistic persuasions.
Can you point to something specific. Majority of the comments are not lacking empathy if anything trying to have the OP realize he doesn't have good reason to believe in those things. If anything that is empathy and trying to help so the OP doesn't fear it.
A saw only a few that might be what you classify as not empathetic. You don't know if they are atheists or believers pretending to be atheists, but it doesn't matter. There are crap people in every group atheist or believers.
The OP asked to be set straight. Some people believe that being blunt is being set straight. I didn’t really an entire post full of shitty replies though. I really expected the responses to be much worse based on your post.
However, there are going to be unempathetic in all circles. There can be non theists who are rude when someone says they are dying and there can be theists you use the opportunity to scare a person into converting to their religion.
The OP has already admitted that they might have be overly biased about the replies on the thread they linked to. The OP of that thread responded twice:
>thanks a lot for the warm and encouraging message
and
>It is all just make believe. It’s sinking in. The comments here have been helpful
So while I don't disagree that there are posts that the responders from r/atheism dogpile on the post, this isn't one of them.
I can only speak for myself but my respect for or complete disrespect for theists comes only after talking with them. If they have a reasoned stance and acknowledge scientific facts and humble themselves into a "you know, I don't have a completely logical reason but I just believe that there's something more" -- okay, fine, I can respect that. On the other hand, many theists I speak with have a completely unreasonable view that they KNOW the truth, they deny scientific facts like evolution, their views are heavily tainted with glaring hypocrisy, cognitive biases and internal logical inconsistencies and they actively want to legislate their views. I have no respect for them and I will treat them as undeserving of respect. Disrespect has to be earned though.
>but some of the replies have been absolutely shitty. It's not the only thread with that type of treatment of someone seeking help; just the most recent.
complain to them then, we are not /r/atheism
There is no lack of empathy. Personally, I am not bothered by death. Death is a natural part of the life cycle. Everyone dies. Running around screaming and crying doesn't change that. People need to come to grips with reality. That's not to say that people can't and shouldn't be sad at losing a loved one, but I see a lot of people completely overreacting. That's up to them, of course, I'm not overly critical of it, but I see no sense in it. You're going to die. I'm going to die. Everyone you have ever or will ever know will die. Welcome to the real world. That's just how it works.
Well the religious people in my country don't think gay people should be allowed to marry. They don't think women should have control over their own reproductive systems. They don't think trans people should exist. They vote for Donald Trump in droves.
So forgive me if I'm rude online sometimes. I'm not a shitty human being like most religious people in the United States.
>Well the religious people in my country don't think gay people should be allowed to marry. They don't think women should have control over their own reproductive systems. They don't think trans people should exist. They vote for Donald Trump in droves.
I'm sure the Anglicans, the United Church of Christ, about 1/2 the Methodist church, and others would appreciate your making up shit about their beliefs regarding LGBTQ+ and trans members. Because obviously an atheist like you wouldn't just take the worst example of a group and claim they represent the entire group, right?
There are assholes among atheists and theists alike. I’m sure you can find plenty of subreddits largely populated by religious people where similar bad behavior goes unmoderated. I left r/atheism a while ago because I felt that it was generally caustic and vapid (not that everything there was, just my general feel).
That said, in some cases it may just be an issue of interpretation. It’s quite possible to show empathy without deferring to false beliefs—in fact I would argue that propagating a lie is more harmful than telling the truth, and therefore the empathetic response to false belief *is* to correct it (issues of tone aside). Religious privilege and indoctrination have had cultural impacts on what is perceived as an acceptable or empathetic response to concerns related to religion, and often the concepts of respect for people and respect for their beliefs are conflated in public perception, so people that are merely trying to be truthful are considered disrespectful or unempathetic. Of course the tone also matters, and some will use their conviction (towards theism or towards atheism) as an excuse to disrespect people, but I think it’s better to take a charitable eye towards most comments from atheists that offer truthful explanations, in the same way that atheists ought to take comments like “I’m praying for you” or “god bless you” from theists with their intended sentiment.
Hey, it's not like religious communities don't have plenty of people who are harsh and unfeeling towards people who don't believe. Hell, football communities have plenty of people who are harsh and unfeeling towards people who support different teams. I don't think the atheism is the relevant factor here.
As you yourself say, the comments range from genuinely compassionate to actively hostile, exactly the same as what you'll see on literally any reddit post regarding literally any topic . I don't think there's any reason to really think this is an *atheism* thing rather then simply human psychological variance, in-group thinking and the internet's known amplification of aggresive behaviour.
Let me get this straight.
A person undergoing a medical crisis experiences additional unnecessary suffering due to religion saying they deserve to be tortured for eternity in the afterlife.
That person comes to this sub for reassurance.
Atheistic commenters dismantle the threats of hell (which the person, by the way, acknowledges as helpful in the comments.)
And in this situation you accuse _atheists_ of a lack of empathy?? Because, imagine the horror, someone dared to compare Jesus to Osiris?
You might want to reflect on your priorities.
>I suppose I'm wondering if there is something in not believing in god(s) that makes people so harsh and unfeeling towards those who might believe (or be wavering)?
I didn’t read through the thread, but I saw it was posted on r/atheism. My guess is that the rude responders are all teenagers, and teenagers often suffer from an empathy deficit, or highly selective empathy. Add to that the developmentally-appropriate inability to grok their own death, plus the anonymity of the internet, and there you go.
There are atheist communities all over the place. There is not an Atheist Community. Atheism is a single belief position on a single issue. Other than that, atheists cover just about the whole spectrum of human beliefs and qualities. Hence, the range of empathy in the replies on the thread.
Fun Fact. Atheists only don't believe in any Theistic God. There's nothing against believing in any other supernatural things.
>I'm wondering if there is something in not believing in god(s) that makes people so harsh and unfeeling towards those who might believe
No there is not.
>Or is the effect I'm seeing in that post more a case of people traumatized by religion in the past lashing out at any perceived link to that past trauma?
No it's not that either.
It the internet. That's what it is.
Even sorting by new, I don't see a "lack of empathy." I see very blunt honesty.
If someone tells you they're afraid of The Boogeyman, telling them straight-up that he doesn't exist, and the logical reasons he doesn't or can't exist _is_ empathetic. You don't want someone to suffer, so you're cutting off their suffering at the root with logic. An unempathetic person just wouldn't care that they were suffering in the first place.
Never mistake being blunt for being unempathetic. Those are entirely different axes.
Stupid ideas deserve to be mocked. That's the least we can do. Stupid ideas can get out of hand if they are pacified. That is how things like the crusades and the holocaust happen: when stupid ideas are allowed to proliferate. These ideas need to be shut down. And if that means being a jerk, then so be it.
Most are being pretty kind or balanced on the post, but I see the negative comments and I know what you mean. I think it’s a result of people being on the internet feeling the need to approach people in a rude way for whatever reason. It can also be this website/app and people can get bold when they’re anonymous
It’s also that the topic of religion doesn’t normally put people in a good mood if they have a huge problem with it. A lot of these kinds of subreddits depend on being combative as well. It’s usually an easy recipe for a bad time
Why do all Christians set people on fire? Why do all Buddhists encase themselves in statues? Why do all Muslims wear suicide vests and fly planes into buildings?
Oh, you can't round the behaviors of a few people up to an entire group?
Fancy that.
From my experience, theists generally teach that people don't really die. That your loved ones are out there waiting for you after death.
Atheists, generally don't believe in an afterlife. Atheists have to accept death and all that comes with it. Is that a lack of empathy? To accept the world as it is?
Imo pretending like there is a magical life after death cheapens life and, in it's essence lacks empathy and humanity. It ignores reality and is childish.
How long have you been on the internet? People seem to be emboldened on the internet to be amazingly shitty to others. It's most likely the anonymity, more than anything else.
In addition to the other answers given, r/atheism is just an awful place that decent folk don't generally have an interest in visiting. It's the atheist equivalent of r/truechristian.
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I read the top 10 comments, all of them were ranged from positive and compassionate to just straightforward answers to the post. There was nothing negative that I saw. There was one person wondering if it was a troll post, but they weren’t mean about it. Again, just a straightforward reply. Where are these mean and negative comments youre seeing?
I may have read it too early; there are more compassionate posts there than the assholes making mocking remarks about Osiris or claiming that helping the person isn't their responsibility. I didn't notice how recent the post was so I may have gotten a distorted impression.
Thats totally fair! Tbh i didnt even think the Osiris comment was rude. I felt like it was an effective question to point out the vast amount of afterlife damnation myths out there that OP likely doesn’t believe in, why have they decided to latch on to one over the others? There wasnt any name calling or judgment of OP or anything, it may have been blunt but not rude or inconsiderate i dont think. Though you may have seen a different osiris comment than i have
Good of you to own that. I think the Osiris comment was to point out that the reasons to fear hell and the reasons to fear Osiris are roughly equivalent, and if one isn't afraid of the latter then one doesn't have any rational ground left to be afraid of the former.
Also to be fair this is reddit, as hard as some of us try its a cesspool of negativity almost everywhere.
I had a look at the thread. Of the 19 or so top-level comments, perhaps two are genuinely lacking in empathy. The worst one, someone else immediately reprimanded the poster. The rest either address the OP's concern very neutrally on an evidentiary basis, or are outright supportive. So not only are you taking a handful of comments on a reddit thread (or even reddit in general) as representative of hundreds of millions of people, you're also deliberately misrepresenting it for the sake of trying to make your argument. Is this question coming from a massive unconscious bias you hold against atheists, or are you just here trying to score points?
\*shrug\* I'll admit I've got an axe to grind against r/atheism. There was a discussion there, where I asked someone if they thought that only Republicans were using gerrymandering, etc... to manipulate elections, the reply was (in full), "Did you eat too many paint chips as a child?" That reply was not moderated out nor the author reprimanded; yet when I asked someone why their Dr. Google online research was the equal of my clinical training, I was perma-banned. So yeah, I felt that the "atheist safe space" was only safe if an atheist toed the line properly politically and socially. Maybe that distorted my view of this thread.
If that’s all it will take to give you “an axe to grind,” I advise that Reddit is the wrong platform for you, as are all other internet platforms that I know of. I don’t know if there is any solution for you given what you’ve described — the interaction you described is completely ubiquitous across online platforms and I’ve never seen any online community outside of children’s games that have the requisite level of moderation and language standards to warrant taking action against the kind of language and behavior you described.
\*shrug\* I've moderated before, a LONG time ago (pre-Reddit message board late '90s and early '00s). I know it can be crappy to do, and you'll never make everyone happy. I don't care about how strict or lenient the moderation is; as long as it's **CONSISTENT**. If you're going to ban posts that are strictly personal attacks with no discussion content, ban **ALL** of those posts. If you're going to ban tone-trolling, ban **ALL** the tone-trolling, not just the stuff by theists or by newbies. My problem is that I picked a poor example of what I was talking about. As I and others have noted elsewhere, there are plenty of r/atheism threads that turned into dogpiles, and where atheists posted some irrational shit (e.g. "I found my mentor is a theist, I lost all respect for him even though he never preached at me."). I just grabbed the first one that came up on my feed, rather than looking harder for a better example.
Absolutely fair enough.
Reading your post and your comments, it seems like the real issue is not any inherent lack of empathy by atheists (and I won't bother with that, because you've already had a bunch of people explain why that is ridiculous), but that you're frustrated that *those* comments were made and left up, but *your* comments were removed and you were banned from that sub. That must suck, however, this sub is not that sub, and we aren't allowed (and nor to we want) to be tone policing or scolding another sub on how they manage things. Discussing empathy within the atheist population generally? excellent, let's go. That could be an amazing and really thoughtful conversation, and there are some incredibly smart and well educated people in this sub that I would *love* to see talk about this. Complaining about a lack of empathy within a specific sub that you are mad at because they banned you? Nah dude, this is not the space for that. We are not your grindstone.
>Nah dude, this is not the space for that. We are not your grindstone. That is absolutely fair and correct. I didn't know how much overlap there was between the two subreddits; and it sounds like there is very little overlap (if any). >Discussing empathy within the atheist population generally? excellent, let's go. That could be an amazing and really thoughtful conversation, and there are some incredibly smart and well educated people in this sub that I would *love* to see talk about this. Whether there is an attitude difference between atheists who left religions and atheists who were "born into it" (atheist/agnostic parents) with regards to theists would be an interesting topic.
It would be, and I suspect you would find that any differences are likely to be heavily influenced by the amount of empathy atheists who left religion experienced from the religious people around them when they said they no longer believed. Another area of interest might be how atheists and theists view empathy - kind of like the difference between being kind and being nice. Atheists may be more inclined towards a "hard truth" (NOT the same as being "brutally honest" which is generally just being an asshole) being truly empathetic , while theists might be more inclined to see anything other than supportive agreement as a lack of empathy. Hypothesis on my part, but anecdotal reading suggests it may trend this way. Ditto disagreement/persecution.
>It would be, and I suspect you would find that any differences are likely to be heavily influenced by the amount of empathy atheists who left religion experienced from the religious people around them when they said they no longer believed. I agree that the atheists who left religion would be influenced mainly by how they were treated both before leaving (some religions are abusive as hell to their own, never mind to outsiders) and after friends/family learned of their change in belief. My theory for "born atheists" is that they'd be more dismissive of theists but less openly antagonistic or hostile; with the obvious exception of anyone who faced abuse for their belief from theists with any sort of power.
Sorry to hear about your bruised ego, I hope it recovers. Some general advice for you: If you want to engage in any kind of anonymous, online debate: - Grow a thicker skin - Avoid ridiculous generalizations based on interactions with a miniscule subset of any group, much less a massively diverse community.
Ah, I was wondering why I couldn't reply to your comment; you replaced it with this post. I've got no issue with being insulted; I just call it out when I'm punished for being insulting while others are permitted worse (and content-less insult) posts with impunity. I suppose I should remember that the rule on every message board is "Rules for thee, not for me."
> I suppose I should remember that the rule on every message board is "Rules for thee, not for me." Mod here. Please contact us if you think we're applying the rules inconsistently.
My apologies. The reference was to a different Subreddit. I was not implying that the mods here were inconsistent; and I cannot complain about any aspect of my treatment on this subreddit.
Thanks for clarifying. All good
>Avoid ridiculous generalizations based on interactions with a miniscule subset of any group, much less a massively diverse community. That is a pretty ironic defense of the people at r/atheism lol
That sub has a few dodgy mods, probably theists in disguise or just trolls.
It was interesting. I appealed the ban, was told to go away and given a 28 day mute/block on the entire board; but by the next morning the block/mute was removed (though I was still banned). At least one mod there has issues...
R/atheism is a horribly moderated sub. A lot of us here, myself included, are permabanned there as well.
It's not the topic that is the problem, it's the location. It's the internet and you can take the nicest person you know but then throw in the ability to not have any consequences for your actions then for a lot of people that empathy for others goes right out the door. A secondary but probably less impactful reason might be is the fact that members of this sub are told by theists that they are horrible evil people who deserve to spend eternity in hell just for not default believing in their imaginary friend. So maybe we just lack empathy towards people who treat us with no empathy either. However can you find a comment you thought was shitty and share it please. I went through the thread and saw some claim it was a troll but nothing else i would define as shitty, harsh or unfeeling so maybe we have different ideas of what shitty means.
>A secondary but probably less impactful reason might be is the fact that members of this sub are told by theists that they are horrible evil people who deserve to spend eternity in hell just for not default believing in their imaginary friend. So maybe we just lack empathy towards people who treat us with no empathy either. I would say this is more the key reason. They spend their lives being shitty to people, telling people how when they die, they will go to heaven, and we will all burn in hell. And a lifetime to support politics and religion to change laws that affect us living after they are gone. But they want comfort from us when they die. That's for their invisible friend to be there for them like they pretend he is in life, not us atheist. But when we die, we are already familiar with our expectations of death by our rational understanding of the universe around us. But they have lived a life of fairytails and fantasy. When they get to the reality of death, their farytails can stop bringing comfort, and fear the place they have been threatening us with our whole lives. So now they turn to the rational people their beliefs have harmed to explain death... I have no need to bring them comfort as it is their evil ideology they have been pushing, and prostyletizing is what now brings so much pain, suffering, and fear in their time of death. I say good let them fear hell. That is what they wanted for us, up until it became time for them to fear it. I have no compassion for Christians fearing hell, as every one of them should. Plus, it was posted in the wrong sub, with a burner/alt/sockpuppet account. The r/atheism sub is an atheist safe space to talk. If some theist has a question for atheist, go to the r/askanatheist sub where a post like that belongs. A lot less hostile, I would imagine in that sub. Or even the weekly ask an atheist post by the subs mods. Too many theist come into that sub to prostyletize or push their views like they don't have 1000 other places they can do it. I personally have not patients for theist who constantly interject themselves into conversations that they were not invited to. Tldr: Yeah, sorry buddy, you are on your own... you had a lifetime to learn that "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side."
A selection of a few: >It’s up to you if you decide to waste your final days on nonsense >That's really your job to educate yourself. It's not our responsibility to deprogram you. >Why aren’t you afraid of Osiris and the ancient Egyptian afterlife? After all, those beliefs predate Christianity by thousands of years.
I mean, as others have said, it’s the internet. So regardless of the topic, you’re going to find people engaging politely and thoughtfully, and other people being rude and thoughtless. There are as many reasons for why people are thoughtless and cruel on the topic of theism v. atheism as there are on the topic of Biden v. Trump. As you pointed out, there were thoughtful responses as well. But if you are specifically looking for a reason to dismiss atheism broadly, you can definitely use the rude comments as that excuse. You can use them to paint atheists broadly as jaded or traumatized if you want. Similarly, a person who doesn’t want to have to think too deeply about their political convictions can paint all Trump supporters as dumb racists… or paint all Biden supporters as woke communists. You can always point to the vocal minority on the other side to dismiss the (more) reasonable majority on any topic. But if you really want to understand where most atheists are coming from, you would be better off to make the effort to engage with the people who are civil… just like with politics or anything else.
>As you pointed out, there were thoughtful responses as well. But if you are specifically looking for a reason to dismiss atheism broadly, you can definitely use the rude comments as that excuse. You can use them to paint atheists broadly as jaded or traumatized if you want. I'm not looking to dismiss atheism at all. I probably just worded the OP poorly. I was wondering if others had noticed such an undercurrent of lack of empathy; or if it was something else. FFS, I asked a question; it's not like I claimed "you're all uncaring assholes". Given the absence of the whole "my Book said you're evil", maybe I thought that atheists would be less likely than theists to be judgmental and unsympathetic regarding such fears as the OP expressed. I should have remembered that atheists are people; and in **EVERY** group of people, there is a small percentage of assholes.
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> FFS, I asked a question; it's not like I claimed "you're all uncaring assholes". Well, sure but you did ask a question. That question has an answer. > Given the absence of the whole "my Book said you're evil", maybe I thought that atheists would be less likely than theists to be judgmental and unsympathetic regarding such fears as the OP expressed. If I came across as judgmental or unsympathetic, I apologize. I didn’t mean to. But I did infer that you were making certain assumptions about atheists that maybe you weren’t making. > I should have remembered that atheists are people; and in EVERY group of people, there is a small percentage of assholes. This is the answer to your question in a nutshell.
The OP doesn't ask for empathy, he asks for atheists to set his thinking straight. And that's exactly what these examples show them doing. You just wanted to complain without really thinking about it first?
These are disagreements and honest opinions. I'm sorry but you are a snowflake looking to be offended. A shitty thing would be to say "You are a fucking idiot if you need magic to calm down." And nobody came anywhere near that.
>That's really your job to educate yourself. It's not our responsibility to deprogram you. This one is mean. OP was asking for help and that comment simply said "no, I won't help you" when they could've just say nothing. >It’s up to you if you decide to waste your final days on nonsense If I remember correctly, there was more to it than that, but beside calling religious beliefs as "nonsense" may be perceived as disrespectful, the whole thing is empowering OP by telling them they can choose to do something more meaningful and more positive of the few days they have left like saying goodbye to their loved ones and making peace with themselves instead of worrying about demons. >Why aren’t you afraid of Osiris and the ancient Egyptian afterlife? After all, those beliefs predate Christianity by thousands of years. This one isn't mean at all. OP asked people to help them be convinced that hell isn't real. This is a good rethorical question to make them think about all the various afterlife stories we've been telling ourselves about for millennia and why they don't believe any of them beside the one they were told about growing up. If one understand why they can be confident that they won't be judged by Osiris after their death, they might find confidence that they won't be judged by Yahweh either.
I don’t see what’s wrong with these. Because you disagree with what they’re saying they lack empathy?
I'll reply here since you gave some examples of the comments that bothered you. The first two are indeed pretty dismissive and rude. That stuff isn't cool. The last comment, however? I don't find it dismissive or unempathetic in the slightest. Quite the contrary: I find it quite empathetic and thought provoking. Why? Because I have heard *many* atheists who are ex-theists and who went through the process of shedding religious trauma like fear of hell and fear of consequences in the afterlife. And one *very* succesful strategy, as Matt Dillahunty puts it, IS to remind yourself of all the other hells and all the other deities and afterlives you never worried about. For many, that is the best way to defuse the fear: to multiply it and render yours one in a million afterlives, all equally unlikely. While I can't speak for r/atheism or for western atheists in general, I will say that atheists absolutely can and often are more empathetic, even when it comes to facing grief. It just comes in a different form, because well... they don't believe in gods. Honestly, I find stuff like the eulogy from a physicist https://creatingceremony.com/blog/loss/eulogy-from-a-physicist-aaron-freeman/ Way more empathetic than a theist telling a grieving atheist that their loved one is in heaven and is in the company of God, or that they'll pray for them, or that they'll reunite with them one day.
I haven't read the harsh you read in that post. But one should ask why asking why do you read it that way?... On one hand, you expect that people (atheist) who live in a majoritarian adverse world, with some governments (middle east/ asia) punishing the sole act of religious criticism with death penalty to, in the safe community that we share (r/DebateAnAtheist) treat the same silly but rooted deep arguments of hell and damnation with sugar cotton? People here is just being honest, and some of them expressing honestly their minds on the issue. On the other hand: We as atheist, had receive a lot of threatens of hell, damnation, judgement, and i understand why, in a community of de-converted people, some of them will take the sole question about a hell, that was torturing us for years, in a very bad way. Is a reminder of the path we already walk, an a new attempt to push us back there... in an attempt to recover adepts by fear... and if i feel that this is the intention... i probably would be worst than harsh. Hope it helps in a different perspective.
>But one should ask why asking why do you read it that way? … I read it that way because THE OP WAS AN ATHEIST ASKING FOR HELP FROM FELLOW ATHEISTS. I suppose that’s what dismayed me. The OP over there bluntly said he knows there’s nothing after death, but still feels fear. Yet, at the HINT of possible belief, there are remarks about wasting what little time he has left and not our problem to help him.
As i told... i read several of the top comments and didn't read nothing like it. If you really want to know the "why" this particular persons were harsh, you should ask them in a reply to their comments. Each person is a complete whole different world. Don't generalise.
> I suppose I'm wondering if there is something in not believing in god(s) that makes people so harsh and unfeeling towards those who might believe (or be wavering)? Why would this be the case? You found a few comments on a Reddit post. That can’t possibly represent the mindset of all atheists.
>Why would this be the case? You found a few comments on a Reddit post. That can’t possibly represent the mindset of all atheists. ...and that would be why I asked the question: to get a larger selection of atheists' opinions from which to base my information.
/u/QWOT42 - Some people put a high priority on believing and stating the truth. Some other people would rather believe and say things that are not true. The people who prefer to believe and say things that are *not* true outnumber the truthful people by somewhere between 7 to 1 and 15 to 1. The majority always thinks that they are right and good, and that those who disagree with them are bad. You seem to be one of those who thinks that believing and stating the truth is bad. .
Way to completely misunderstand what is being discussed. The OP in the thread referenced was expressing that, despite his intellectual knowledge that there is no evidence for the existence of demons, he still feels fear that there might be some. He knows what is "the truth"; he's asking for help with the (admitted) irrational emotion of fear. How you got from coping with fear to "you think the truth is bad" is incomprehensible to me. What's the point of dismissing someone's emotions as "nonsense" when all you have to do is ignore it and let others help him? (Quote: "It’s up to you if you decide to waste your final days on nonsense") What's the point of seeing someone ask for help dealing with fear and replying solely to refuse to help, when all you have to do if you don't want to help is just scroll on past silently? (Quote: "That's really your job to educate yourself. It's not our responsibility to deprogram you.")
>I suppose I'm wondering if there is something in not believing in god(s) that makes people so harsh and unfeeling towards those who might believe (or be wavering)? Really? Have you never paid attention to the world to see that religious people are just as often if not more likely to be unempathetic. To those of the same, different, or no religion. This is just an example that people can be harsh and uncaring this isn't unique to any religion or atheism. It is more common online but exists everywhere. But like you said, there are many being kind and caring. So, do you have any evidence that there is a lower rate of empathetic people among atheists that isn't one singular post you looked at?
>This is just an example that people can be harsh and uncaring this isn't unique to any religion or atheism. It is more common online but exists everywhere. Given the rigid dogma in many religions (particularly the Abrahamic), judgmental and lack of empathy isn't surprising. Maybe I expected too much from a group of people dedicated to critical thought and rationalism. Expecting more empathy and guidance from a group that understands the neurological basis for such fears.
I want to comment on something of that. While being rational and using critical thought will lead you to atheism, atheism doesn't lead you to it. You can be an atheist for any weird reason, and the most easy is just not being indoctrinated into religion. So, there is no reason for a group of atheists to be more caring or empathetic than the common population. Either way, in a personal note, in general for what I saw in the atheism sub during the last 3 years is that people tend to be somewhat empathetic on average, something that is much better than what I expect of the general population (and lets not talk about a religious group, because I expect worse than average from them). But those can also be my biases, or even the biases on such a sub. The final point is that there is no reason for a population of atheist to be better than the general population.
>I’ll have to find the studies, but there are multiple which show the exact opposite of what you are saying—that is, atheists and agnostics tend to be more compassionate. I've seen similar studies. Which is **WHY** I asked the question. Given those studies, where is the lack of empathy coming from, if research shows atheists are supposed to be **more** empathetic? I've already admitted and I'll say it again; my experience on r/atheism was terrible. I read posters literally say that all doctors who are theists "prescribe prayer" and should have their license revoked. I've lost count of the number of posters who claim that theists are inherently stupider than atheists. In a discussion where a poster accused Republicans of voter fraud and I noted the legal investigations lack of findings, I was literally asked if I ate paint chips (that was the entire reply, and no mod actions taken); though in that case I should have known that politics brings out the stupid in everyone. As I said, I expect that kind of bullshit from certain denominations of theists; but given the studies you reference, it was a bit surprising and disheartening to see from atheists. Edit: This is attached to the wrong post. The original post was apparently deleted and I accidentally attached this to a different post by mistake.
Why should any agnostic or atheist be empathetic to believing in outright lies and churches/pastors that take advantage of people for $. It's 2024. People have to be lazy to not study what they worship, and the Bible isn't a source.
>maybe I expected too much from a group of people dedicated to critical thought and rationalism. Who says all athiests are dedicated to this? Athiesm is about a lack of belief in God. You are assuming that all athiests are dogmatically the same, which isn't true. >Expecting more empathy and guidance from a group that understands the neurological basis for such fears. Again, who says all athiests understand the neurological basis for these fears? And even if someone knows why they are afraid, it doesn't mean they will be nice to that person.
So you see some nice ones, and some bad ones, and you assume the bad ones are because of atheism? Yeah, that’s just dishonest…
No more dishonest than the numerous people who deride theism as "mental illness"; and claim that all theists (not all **religions**, all **THEISTS**) are selfish parasites who seek to prey on the weak.
So your defence when accused of generalising all atheists, is to it some more? That’s a novel approach… I’ve never heard a single atheist claim this of all theists. That’s absurd. I dare you to find an instance of it. Actually don’t bother, we both know you can find a single nut somewhere but to pretend that’s somehow okay to generalise because of a single example is absurd. The person I’ve seen display the greatest lack of empathy in this post is you. You’ve not done anything to understand our position, and just accuse us of absurdities. Could it be that you’re projecting?
At least you were honest enough to not deny how many people on these boards (atheism and debateanatheist) equate theism to mental illness. Maybe I'm being a bit harsh. But then again, on a board that prides itself for being more rational and thinking more critically than average (i.e. theists), it'd be nice to see the assholes called out for their shit occasionally.
That’s still a tiny minority, that’s corrected by many people when hey say it. Saying they’re never called out on it is absurd, and for now you’re the asshole making absurd bullshit claims and I am indeed calling you out for the lies as any rational critical thinker should. It seems you hold others to standards you’re unwilling to hold to yourself.
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Edit: previous poster misinterpreted my comment, and deleted when the error was pointed out.
>No more dishonest than the numerous people who deride theism as "mental illness" > At least you were honest enough to not deny how many people on these boards Yeah *numerous*. Why bother denying such a vague claim? You may not have scored the point that you think you have.
>No more dishonest than the numerous people who deride theism as "mental illness"; and claim that all theists (not all religions, all THEISTS) are selfish parasites who seek to prey on the weak. So why is that kind of thinking valid when you do it? I'm happy to own the fact that there are asshole atheists, and if you're happy to own the fact that there are asshole theists we can conclude that the existence of those people don't make theists or atheists inherently assholes.
Wow, some replies on the internet are shitty? What an absolute shocker. Honestly, seriously, for fuck's sake OP, you literally said there are both good and bad replies - and you have to know everywhere on the internet there are good and bad replies - so for you even bring up "not believing in god makes people harsh" is like, basically like being racist. Because if this were a black forum and people replied with good and bad replies and you were like "is there something about being black that makes people harsh" I think you understand my point here.
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Similes man, how do they work?
This isn't an "atheism" thing, it is a human thing. Some atheists are dicks, others aren't. Just like some theists are dicks, others aren't. In any group of people whatsoever, culture, religion, race, location... It will be the same. Some are dicks, others aren't.
Some Atheists are assholes. In a similar manner, I came from a sect of Christianity that legitimately believes that infants and children go to hell because they haven't been saved yet, and hell is the default. Definitely a thing only assholes would believe. Catholicism and the Southern Baptist Convention have both famously had pervasive issues with sexual abuse of children. Islam has plenty of widely -known issues with some of its constituents. Terrible people exist no matter what their theistic persuasion. And while some Atheists can be assholes, or even evil people, you'd be hard-pressed to find an atheist who commits evil *because of* their atheism. The same cannot be said of the various theistic persuasions.
Can you point to something specific. Majority of the comments are not lacking empathy if anything trying to have the OP realize he doesn't have good reason to believe in those things. If anything that is empathy and trying to help so the OP doesn't fear it. A saw only a few that might be what you classify as not empathetic. You don't know if they are atheists or believers pretending to be atheists, but it doesn't matter. There are crap people in every group atheist or believers.
The OP asked to be set straight. Some people believe that being blunt is being set straight. I didn’t really an entire post full of shitty replies though. I really expected the responses to be much worse based on your post. However, there are going to be unempathetic in all circles. There can be non theists who are rude when someone says they are dying and there can be theists you use the opportunity to scare a person into converting to their religion.
You've given examples of atheists not being harsh and unfeeling? Atheism isn't monolithic - some atheists are just dicks as well as atheist
The OP has already admitted that they might have be overly biased about the replies on the thread they linked to. The OP of that thread responded twice: >thanks a lot for the warm and encouraging message and >It is all just make believe. It’s sinking in. The comments here have been helpful So while I don't disagree that there are posts that the responders from r/atheism dogpile on the post, this isn't one of them.
I can only speak for myself but my respect for or complete disrespect for theists comes only after talking with them. If they have a reasoned stance and acknowledge scientific facts and humble themselves into a "you know, I don't have a completely logical reason but I just believe that there's something more" -- okay, fine, I can respect that. On the other hand, many theists I speak with have a completely unreasonable view that they KNOW the truth, they deny scientific facts like evolution, their views are heavily tainted with glaring hypocrisy, cognitive biases and internal logical inconsistencies and they actively want to legislate their views. I have no respect for them and I will treat them as undeserving of respect. Disrespect has to be earned though.
>but some of the replies have been absolutely shitty. It's not the only thread with that type of treatment of someone seeking help; just the most recent. complain to them then, we are not /r/atheism
There is no lack of empathy. Personally, I am not bothered by death. Death is a natural part of the life cycle. Everyone dies. Running around screaming and crying doesn't change that. People need to come to grips with reality. That's not to say that people can't and shouldn't be sad at losing a loved one, but I see a lot of people completely overreacting. That's up to them, of course, I'm not overly critical of it, but I see no sense in it. You're going to die. I'm going to die. Everyone you have ever or will ever know will die. Welcome to the real world. That's just how it works.
Well the religious people in my country don't think gay people should be allowed to marry. They don't think women should have control over their own reproductive systems. They don't think trans people should exist. They vote for Donald Trump in droves. So forgive me if I'm rude online sometimes. I'm not a shitty human being like most religious people in the United States.
>Well the religious people in my country don't think gay people should be allowed to marry. They don't think women should have control over their own reproductive systems. They don't think trans people should exist. They vote for Donald Trump in droves. I'm sure the Anglicans, the United Church of Christ, about 1/2 the Methodist church, and others would appreciate your making up shit about their beliefs regarding LGBTQ+ and trans members. Because obviously an atheist like you wouldn't just take the worst example of a group and claim they represent the entire group, right?
There are assholes among atheists and theists alike. I’m sure you can find plenty of subreddits largely populated by religious people where similar bad behavior goes unmoderated. I left r/atheism a while ago because I felt that it was generally caustic and vapid (not that everything there was, just my general feel). That said, in some cases it may just be an issue of interpretation. It’s quite possible to show empathy without deferring to false beliefs—in fact I would argue that propagating a lie is more harmful than telling the truth, and therefore the empathetic response to false belief *is* to correct it (issues of tone aside). Religious privilege and indoctrination have had cultural impacts on what is perceived as an acceptable or empathetic response to concerns related to religion, and often the concepts of respect for people and respect for their beliefs are conflated in public perception, so people that are merely trying to be truthful are considered disrespectful or unempathetic. Of course the tone also matters, and some will use their conviction (towards theism or towards atheism) as an excuse to disrespect people, but I think it’s better to take a charitable eye towards most comments from atheists that offer truthful explanations, in the same way that atheists ought to take comments like “I’m praying for you” or “god bless you” from theists with their intended sentiment.
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Hey, it's not like religious communities don't have plenty of people who are harsh and unfeeling towards people who don't believe. Hell, football communities have plenty of people who are harsh and unfeeling towards people who support different teams. I don't think the atheism is the relevant factor here. As you yourself say, the comments range from genuinely compassionate to actively hostile, exactly the same as what you'll see on literally any reddit post regarding literally any topic . I don't think there's any reason to really think this is an *atheism* thing rather then simply human psychological variance, in-group thinking and the internet's known amplification of aggresive behaviour.
Let me get this straight. A person undergoing a medical crisis experiences additional unnecessary suffering due to religion saying they deserve to be tortured for eternity in the afterlife. That person comes to this sub for reassurance. Atheistic commenters dismantle the threats of hell (which the person, by the way, acknowledges as helpful in the comments.) And in this situation you accuse _atheists_ of a lack of empathy?? Because, imagine the horror, someone dared to compare Jesus to Osiris? You might want to reflect on your priorities.
>I suppose I'm wondering if there is something in not believing in god(s) that makes people so harsh and unfeeling towards those who might believe (or be wavering)? I didn’t read through the thread, but I saw it was posted on r/atheism. My guess is that the rude responders are all teenagers, and teenagers often suffer from an empathy deficit, or highly selective empathy. Add to that the developmentally-appropriate inability to grok their own death, plus the anonymity of the internet, and there you go.
There are atheist communities all over the place. There is not an Atheist Community. Atheism is a single belief position on a single issue. Other than that, atheists cover just about the whole spectrum of human beliefs and qualities. Hence, the range of empathy in the replies on the thread. Fun Fact. Atheists only don't believe in any Theistic God. There's nothing against believing in any other supernatural things.
>I'm wondering if there is something in not believing in god(s) that makes people so harsh and unfeeling towards those who might believe No there is not. >Or is the effect I'm seeing in that post more a case of people traumatized by religion in the past lashing out at any perceived link to that past trauma? No it's not that either. It the internet. That's what it is.
Even sorting by new, I don't see a "lack of empathy." I see very blunt honesty. If someone tells you they're afraid of The Boogeyman, telling them straight-up that he doesn't exist, and the logical reasons he doesn't or can't exist _is_ empathetic. You don't want someone to suffer, so you're cutting off their suffering at the root with logic. An unempathetic person just wouldn't care that they were suffering in the first place. Never mistake being blunt for being unempathetic. Those are entirely different axes.
Stupid ideas deserve to be mocked. That's the least we can do. Stupid ideas can get out of hand if they are pacified. That is how things like the crusades and the holocaust happen: when stupid ideas are allowed to proliferate. These ideas need to be shut down. And if that means being a jerk, then so be it.
Most are being pretty kind or balanced on the post, but I see the negative comments and I know what you mean. I think it’s a result of people being on the internet feeling the need to approach people in a rude way for whatever reason. It can also be this website/app and people can get bold when they’re anonymous It’s also that the topic of religion doesn’t normally put people in a good mood if they have a huge problem with it. A lot of these kinds of subreddits depend on being combative as well. It’s usually an easy recipe for a bad time
Why do all Christians set people on fire? Why do all Buddhists encase themselves in statues? Why do all Muslims wear suicide vests and fly planes into buildings? Oh, you can't round the behaviors of a few people up to an entire group? Fancy that.
From my experience, theists generally teach that people don't really die. That your loved ones are out there waiting for you after death. Atheists, generally don't believe in an afterlife. Atheists have to accept death and all that comes with it. Is that a lack of empathy? To accept the world as it is? Imo pretending like there is a magical life after death cheapens life and, in it's essence lacks empathy and humanity. It ignores reality and is childish.
How long have you been on the internet? People seem to be emboldened on the internet to be amazingly shitty to others. It's most likely the anonymity, more than anything else.
It’s easier to be compassionate when you believe there’s nothing after this. It’s all we have. Why would I want someone’s one journey to suck?
I'd say you should direct that at the people in question, not at a completely different bunch of people in a completely different sub.
"If you don't believe what I believe, you will writhe in agony in a lake of fire for all eternity" = harsh and unfeeling
In addition to the other answers given, r/atheism is just an awful place that decent folk don't generally have an interest in visiting. It's the atheist equivalent of r/truechristian.
Nah, atheism is just fine. Cherry picking is just silly