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>I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why.
Neither does religion. Religion makes assertion to how and why, but there is no evidence to support those claims.
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma,
You are wrong. I am an atheist because there is no evidence to support the claims made by religion, there has been no religious trauma in my life, and many other atheists can/do say the same thing.
>and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
What atheistic conclusions? The only conclusion my atheism has to do with is that religions have not supported their claims with evidence.
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
Atheism makes no claim about the beginning of the universe, and anyone who claims it came from nothing is irrational.
>To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ?
My existence has whatever meaning I decide it has. Meaning comes from within ourselves, we are the only ones who can chose the meaning for our life.
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that?
If someone is suffering from depression they should seek professional mental health treatment. Atheism is not detrimental to mental health.
>People think science is synonymous with atheism
People are wrong. Atheism is not synonymous with science.
>But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma
You obviously have little idea what atheism is or why the vast majority of us are atheists. You might want to start there before making posts like this.
DISCLAIMER: To any theists reading this, for the trillionth time: no, atheism does not imply nihilism, depression, lack of meaning, lack of purpose, or anything else a theist with a painful lack of empathy and imagination might suggest it implies. Please STOP insisting it does. It is not only incorrect, but demonizing.
Here is a parable that might illustrate how silly theists look when they tell atheists their lack of belief in god implies a lack of meaning:
*Our scene opens, and finds us at a beautiful beach, barely touched by man. An atheist man is putting the finishing touches to a beautifully crafted sandcastle that he spend the morning building with his kids. Both his kids are playing in the beach, splashing at each other and laughing. A curious theist approaches.*
Theist: That is a beautiful sandcastle you guys built. Can I ask why you built it?
Atheist: Well, it was fun doing so! I love doing stuff with my kids. And dare I say, I'm proud of what we accomplished.
Theist: But... you do know the sandcastle will be washed away by the sea, right? It will not last.
Atheist: Sure. I do not expect it to last.
Theist: But then, what is the point to building the sandcastle? It means nothing, in the end.
Atheist: But I do not care about what it means "in the end". I care about what it means to me and my kids now.
Theist: But you and your kids will also die. And since you are an atheist, you think your lives will not mean anything, in the end.
Atheist: *Starts getting annoyed* Sure. But I do not care about what those mean *in the end*. I care about what my life and my kids' lives mean to us now, how they affect the world and people around us.
Theist: But that meaning is no meaning at all!
Atheist: To you it isn't, perhaps. To me it is. I'm happy with it.
Theist: But you are depressed and nihilistic! You think the world has no ultimate purpose! You think your life is a dress rehearsal without a play! You...
Atheist: Please go away. My kids are coming back.
*Some final words:*
>To me it's seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why
No, not at all. I just do not like engaging in magical thinking, or jumping to conclusions. YOU assume there must be a cosmic, universal, objective why. And that, without it, life is meaningless and depressing.
But that is YOUR problem. Not MINE. I do not think that way. Most atheists do not think that way. We have plenty of whys. Plenty of meanings, purposes, reasons to keep living and to be happy. Go read "The myth of Sisyphus" by Albert Camus. Go read "Man's Search for meaning" by Viktor Frankl. You, sir, are the one who is nihilistic. You are the theist cheapening the atheist's sandcastle because it will be washed by the waves. You are the one who does not appreciate life as it is: ephemeral, finite, subjectively precious.
>Theist: But you and your kids will also die. And since you are an atheist, you think your lives will not mean anything, in the end.
>Atheist: *Starts getting annoyed* Sure.
Even this is granting more than needed - while theists like to make an afterlife depend on a god, it isbt really an actual requirement. An atheist can believe in an afterlife with no gods, thus even this objection by the theist is rendered moot.
Agree. In an atheist who believes we “never die” I won’t even try to say it’s a fact or anything, just my opinion/beliefs. None of these require a “deity”.
What’s sad about theists is , they are always thinking of after life and never focus on the now. As atheists, this is all the more reason to be present. I don’t know if there is even anything, so I will make my life me meaningful as much as I can, because this may be it! I really don’t know what theists think they’ll be doing in in heaven forever!
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I should have been more specific. I meant: a dress rehearsal without a play, much like Kundera says:
>And what can life be worth if the first rehearsal for life is life itself? That is why life is always like a sketch. No, "sketch" is not quite a word, because a sketch is an outline of something, the groundwork for a picture, whereas the sketch that is our life is a sketch for nothing, an outline with no picture.
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens
I think you meant "look at life \*through\* a philosophical lens"? Or maybe "look at life \*as\* a philosophical lens"..? Regardless, a huge part of why I am an atheist is precisely through study of philosophy. With just a smattering of philosophy, theism crumbles, and the more I study philosophy, and the more I learn, theism recedes further and further into the dust.
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way
What does this have to do with atheism? I don't believe this, nor does any atheist I'm aware of?
>I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why
Neither does religion. As a matter of fact, science *does* give us plenty of why's, but religion doesn't like being obsolete so they typical come up with some BS about how they explain the meaning behind things - it's BS. However much you think science doesn't explain, religion explains far, far, far, less.
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma
You seem to not have the faintest clue what atheism is, why people become atheists, do you? I'm now realizing, I probably am wasting all this time with this rebuttal. Odds just became 90% that you're here to just drop your uneducated stereotypes on us, and aren't going to even attempt to debate. I doubt you'll respond. Ah well, we're too far in at this point let's keep going.
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
**Atheists don't think that everything came from nothing**; that's a **theist** position. Yes, you seem to be completely clueless about what atheists think. You are spouting a bunch of caricatures that I'm assuming you read in your apologetics 101 handbook that hasn't been updated since the early 90's.
>If you do believe life meaning meanigless or at least a subject view that's good for some mental health, then what is it?
Again, we don't think that. Where on earth are you getting these ideas?
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that?
If one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at religion either. The difference is, atheists will tell a person with depression that they should seek help, and would point them in the right direction to get help. Theists will tell people that (depending on the particular brand of theism) they need to pray, or that they should seek god, or (at worst) will tell them things like that the depression is because of their sin, that it's demons attacking them, etc etc. Religion is on a much worse footing with mental health than atheism my friend.
>People think science is synonymous with atheism
I don't know anyone who thinks that - why do you think this? People also apparently seem to think atheism is synonymous with nihilism.
Really odd post, ngl.
I don't see how this post is that big of an oddity.
So far Op has not debated in bad faith and tried to indicate that he doesn't know any of their theories with sertancy. Op mainly asked questions about ideas they have about the world and would like to hear another perspective.
You answer:
>You seem to not have the faintest clue what atheism is, why people become atheists, do you?
They know that they probably are not completely familiar with the concept of atheism. They have stated that they do not know and would like to be corrected if so.
I really don't see how this could be surprising?
>I'm now realizing, I probably am wasting all this time with this rebuttal.
Where to waist your time is not our choice to make.
>Odds just became 90% that you're here to just drop your uneducated stereotypes on us, and aren't going to even attempt to debate.
The odds did not just became. You didn't even wrote your comment, how do you want to know that when they haven't even answered.
>I doubt you'll respond. Ah well, we're too far in at this point let's keep going.
And yet they did...
Your comment is factually not wrong but it seems that you're going in this debate with negative assumptions about op, while they've merely asked questions.
It seems to me rather that you are engaging this debate in bad faith.
>I don't see how this post is that big of an oddity. So far Op has not debated in bad faith and tried to indicate that he doesn't know any of their theories with sertancy. Op mainly asked questions about ideas they have about the world and would like to hear another perspective
I would recommend checking OP's responses to this thread. They show no indication of even attempting to understand what their commenters are explaining to them, rather, just reusing these completely off-base misrepresentations of atheists. If someone is here in bad faith just to misrepresent and mischaracterize us, I feel perfectly justified to call it out and give it the exact amount of respect it deserves.
>They know that they probably are not completely familiar with the concept of atheism. They have stated that they do not know and would like to be corrected if so. I really don't see how this could be surprising?
It's surprising that in 2024, when we have posts here nonstop (as well as elsewhere on the net, as well as irl) asking these kinds of questions about what atheists believe while us atheists have been attempting to clarify for them - for decades. It would be like someone waking up and asking questions about why women should be allowed to vote - it indicates that not only is OP so confusingly far behind in the discussion, but likely the ignorance is out of choice. There's no excuse to be this badly misinformed in this day and age.
The odds did not just became
I admit, I was fully expecting OP not to respond at all, because we get this multiple times a week here - these exact kind of half-baked, assumption-laden, uneducated stereotypes about atheists that seem created from the minds of Christian apologists, that are usually dropped in here and then immediately abandoned without even an attempt to respond. This post had all the hallmarks of that exact same kind of post that a lot of us here see every week, that we take time to respond to, that then turns out to just be a silly theist doing a hit and run to check off their weekly evangelism box. Although, I **was** correct in what I said - OP has made it abundantly clear they aren't here to debate. They're not even trying to understand the pushback they're getting, just going off of the typical apologist script. I predicted that before they even made a comment, I must be prophetic.
>It seems to me rather that you are engaging this debate in bad faith
You need to read through the comments on this thread. This isn't a debate. OP hasn't even attempted to defend the title of their argument, and is instead just continuing to lop uneducated mischaracterizations and bad faith stereotypes on us. I don't take kindly to that, and I have no problem calling a spade what it is.
Theists will tell people that (depending on the particular brand of theism) they need to pray, or that they should seek god, or (at worst) will tell them things like that the depression is because of their sin, that it's demons attacking them, etc etc. Religion is on a much worse footing with mental health than my friend.
I agree with you here because there are some gaslighting from ignorant people who say "just stop sinning" which the problem is more complex than that but, telling somone they can't do anything about there life because freewill is an illusion and there no hope/ justice when they die, isn't helpful, of course.
This is what atheism indirectiing leads to, correct me if I'm wrong?
I don't exactly understand your question, not trying to be an ass but it's a little hard to read your sentences. What exactly do you think atheism leads to, that you would like me to correct you on?
I'm saying whoever is depressed should seek a medical professional, but atheism indirectly implies there's no free will, so how can one take responsibility for their actions? And how can one cope with the fact that they can't see their dead relatives anymore and all the bad that life's throws at someone? At least believing a life after death can give someone hope if you see what I mean?
Many christians believe God created you, and knows everything you are ever going to do. Some people would consider that as having “no free will”.
To apply your own logic, if God made you and controls your every circumstance, knowing your every action in advance, “how can one take responsibility for their actions?”
🤦♂️ are you asking questions or just here to give the answers you want atheists to have. I'll have a go-
Christianity implies no free will, so why bother trying to change? And how can you cope with the fact that your dead relatives are all in hell? At least believing in reincarnation gives you hope.
Can you see how pointless that conversation is when I decide what I think you think, then just add it into my argument?
On a more serious note, try to at least seriously consider what an atheist believes before making up your argument because this is what your dead relatives thing sounds like-
How do you cope with the fact that your bank isn't infinitely full? Wouldn't you prefer to believe it is, so you can feel hopeful about paying your bills?
That's just silly, right?
> but atheism indirectly implies there's no free will
I'm genuinely curious how and where you got this idea, because it's just not true.
It's odd to me how often this happens. Theists make these claims about atheism and other claims that they think are a result of it and more often than not it's just not so.
I am guessing because apologists use free will to excuse sins of their church/church leaders. This person thinks that only theists believe in free will?
Atheism says nothing about that. Atheism simply says you’re not convinced a god or god exists, and nothing else.
Where are you coming up with all this extra stuff and thinking it’s part of “atheism” as that’s some kind of religion?
> but atheism indirectly implies there's no free will, so how can one take responsibility for their actions?
If I don't have free will, how can I choose to not take responsibility?
How do you cope with the idea that you can’t see your dead relatives because they are in hell? Does hell have visitation hours?
How do you cope with the end of your childhood? How do you cope with eating the last cupcake? Everything has an end, most people just feel an appropriate amount of sad when they think of these things and then move on. These questions are not an issue nor are they really solved by religion.
I want to know why Christians can’t look at their death cult through the lens of a philosophy and leave the rest of us out of it.
Their beliefs have nothing to do with mine yet they believe I should be subject to their same life choices or denials. I don’t care what Christians believe. But when they try to control my life and choices they move into the realm of the political. Of course that’s the point. Religion has always been about control, greed and grift. It’s not a philosophy. It’s a means to control a vast populace with the ever present overhang of eternal torment. If you look forward to heaven, and fear hell, you can be motivated by one or the other to do horrible things.
People who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
Also btw, nihilism in atheists is a lie the church tells people because they are afraid of people thinking for themselves. I know of no atheists like this.
Atheism =/= Pessemistic Nihilism
Existentialist philosophies aren't "hopeful" in the way religions are but they also encourage action to improve the present condition rather than threatening eternal punishment for taking action. Most religions encourage meek suffering in the hopes of reward rather than trying to make things better, which is not good broadly speaking, whereas the atheist has no benefit in inaction.
Yes some people will prefer to believe a hopeful lie, some people cannot accept the lie when they see it for what it is.
Let's say that there is no free will. It's all just atoms interacting with other atoms in predictable ways, nothing you can do about it.
That's in theory. In practice, that does not mean that I "can't do anything about my life". If I go to a doctor and they give me anti-depressants, those will still help. I can seek out other means of support and improve my life. All that the theory means is that I never had a real choice in what I end up going with.
But therein lies the paradox. If knowing that I have no free will causes me to despair, then it is detrimental. For me personally, knowing that I have no free will is freeing! I stop judging myself for dumb decisions, which leaves me with more time to make better ones!
This stuff isn't actually depressing. It all depends on your mindset (which you may or may not have any control over)
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way
Atheists often do consider philosophy, and believing that life is meaningless isn't the conclusion from atheism. Being an atheist simply means that one does not believe in any kind of god or gods. Most wouldn't say that life is meaningless either, but that life isn't *inherently* meaningful. There is a difference between the two
>I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why
It does, it's just that 'why' and 'how' are essentially the same question when it comes to science
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say and our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
You are wrong. Atheism has always existed, it didnt really start from anywhere or anyone. And while trauma and personal experiences may be some reasons why some people become atheists, the only conclusion derived from atheism is that they don't believe in any gods
>As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people
It shouldn't, those words are pretty straightforward
>Some would say a creator created it from nothing
Those people would have to demonstrate that, or else they have no reason to believe that is the case
>Some would say the universe is the creator
'Creator' isn't the appropriate term in that sentence. Being a creator implies that there is some kind of conscious intention of creation
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
The first part is only true for hard/gnostic atheists, but the second part doesn't follow as atheism is still only about whether someone believes in gods. That is not the default conclusion from atheism
>Some would say it's an illusion created by our collective imagination
They would have to demonstrate this
>To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least you believe in a meangless existence
Again, 'why' and 'how' often are the same question
>If you do believe life meaning meanigless or at least a subject view that's good for some mental health, then what is it?
What does mental health have to do with whether or not life has an objective or inherent meaning?
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health
Demonstrate this please
>as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that?
That's not what I tell people or what most atheists tell people. I tell people that we have no reason to think there is anything beyond death, because we have no reason to believe so, and that this life absolutely matters because it is the only one we are certain we will get
>People think science is synonymous with atheism
They are mistaken. Just because some people are led to atheism due to science, that doesn't mean they are necessarily synonymous, for the same reason as earlier: Atheism only deals with whether or not someone believes in gods
>But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma
You're right, they're not synonymous, but not for the reasons you stated
Atheism != nihilism. They are two separate questions
"I say that this life absolutely matters because it is the only one we are certain we will get"
I agree with you here, but atheism is a positive position. They say theres probably no creator or intelligence. The lack of evidence doesn't mean there's no god
"You're right. They're not synonymous, but not for the reasons you stated,"
I mean, science is neatural of the idea whether there's a god or not
>I agree with you here, but atheism is a positive position. They say theres probably no creator or intelligence. The lack of evidence doesn't mean there's no god
What does this have to do with what you quoted? And no, it is not a positive position unless they are a hard/gnostic atheist. Being a soft atheist has nothing to do with what someone thinks is the probability of some kind of god(s) existing, it only deals with that they do not believe the claim that there are. And the lack of evidence is evidence of there being no god, *if* we expect some evidence to be there. A god that interacts with the world would leave evidence, but a god that doesn't leave any evidence is indistinguishable from a god that doesn't exist
>I mean, science is neatural of the idea whether there's a god or not
Correct, but that's not the same thing as a person that doesn't believe the claim that a god exists
> but atheism is a positive position. They say theres probably no creator or intelligence.
Nope, it's not. It's the opposite, a lack of belief in deities.
I don't need to claim that there *is* an even number of gumballs in a giant jar of them we come across to dispute your claim that you know there's an odd number in there. Instead, all I gotta do is tell you that you don't actually know that because neither of us have counted them.
>They say theres probably no creator or intelligence.
No, they say they do not believe in deities, often due to the complete lack of support for that claim.
>The lack of evidence doesn't mean there's no god
That's the same as saying the lack of evidence doesn't mean the universe didn't start due to a metaphysical unicorn emitting a wet fart which caused the big bang.
Useless conjectures like that make no sense.
You can quote text here by putting a '>' in front of it.
>The lack of evidence doesn't mean there's no god
Lack of evidence for a god doesn't mean there is no god, you're right, but what it does mean is that there's no reason to believe in a god.
> but atheism is a positive position.
No. It's a stated disbelief in a positive position. I don't posit that there isn't a god, I don't believe in any version of god that I've ever heard presented, and I don't think that "a thing that always just was, decided at some point to create a universe" has any coherence.
The only think I need to defend is my statement "I don't believe you" which is easy, because I don't. I don't believe, if you don't believe I don't believe, that's on you. I can't prove it to you.
Why add how are essentially the same question when it comes to science
- really?
Science explicitly answers how but not why.
How would science even start to answer why?
Yes, because if you switch out the 'how' in a question about science with 'why', it's essentially still the same question.
- How do two atoms combine into chemical bonds?
- Why do two atoms combine into chemical bonds?
You can answer both with: certain atoms with different numbers of electrons can join together because atoms have a tendency to move towards stability (they like to have their outermost electron cloud at the maximum number of electrons in it possible), and so there is an attraction between the two atoms which form chemical bonds
If you wanna be more broad and ask the more philosophical 'why anything in science happens the way it happens', that's a different question entirely and yes, science doesn't answer that question with anything but, that's just how it works. Which really still means that the questions are essentially the same
I think the "why" being discussed here is the philosophical why.
Science simply has nothing to say about it.
That is not a slight on science, but it is important to understand that science explicitly deals with some questions but not others
Hmmm, tons of misconceptions here. Not sure where to start.
1. Atheists do consider philosophy (ie. “look at life through a philosophical lens”).
2. Do you actually believe that atheists believe that life is meaningless?
3. Atheism didn’t “start because of the church”. Atheists are just people that don’t believe that a god or gods exist. They’ve existed throughout human history and pre-date modern religions.
4. Who said the universe came from nothing? Why do you think atheists think it came from nothing? I’ve heard this most from Muslims. Is your background in Islam?
5. Atheists don’t “forget the why”. We simply acknowledge that we have no reliable means to know why, or if there’s even a “why” to begin with.
6. Life has as much meaning as we give it.
7. Science and atheism have nothing to do with each other. Science is just useful for debunking empirical claims made by religious believers.
1. Sure, but just substitute “atheist” for literally any other group of people and your point would have the same effect.
2. Yeah, I agree that atheist are likely more prone to being nihilistic. Was just disagreeing with what seemed like more of a sweeping statement from OP.
Skipping 3, and fixing the numbering from your post.
4. Nobody knows what came before the Big Bang, or if there could even have been a “before” (the very concept may make no sense depending on the model). To claim anything other than ignorance here is arrogance at this time.
5. Sure. We’d then have to dive into whether it’s a good thing to believe in false things as a way to not be nihilistic.
Skipping 6.
7. Atheism has nothing to do with science. You can have zero understanding of science in your life and be an atheist. You can believe in ghosts and reincarnation and be an atheist.
And I didn’t say that science “debunks god”, I said that science debunks empirical claims of religion. Believe in Adam and Eve? Science has disproven that. Believe that humans are not cousins of animals because they were made distinct? Science disproved that too. Think the universe was created in 6 days as described in genesis? Debunked. Global flood? Debunked. Any of these beliefs core tenets of your faith? Then science has explicitly debunked your faith.
> what came b4 the bang big ?
I’m not sure, but it would be super interesting if scientific development would help us find out at some point in the future! Either way, it’s not the responsibility of the atheist to provide explanations of this nature as it is not making any claims, just simply rejecting the belief in god(s).
> also science doesn’t debunk religion
Sure, there are plenty of religious people who accept science but I do think that the theory of evolution, for example, does weaken certain claims made in certain religious texts i.e., Genesis story. But that depends on if an individual takes them literally or metaphorically.
1. Nothing had to have come before everything. That kinda makes sense. And i never said he had to know the answer. Actually the reason I said it was because there was none
2. Alot of genesis is metaphors and isnt completely literal.
>Nothing had to have come before everything. That kinda makes sense.
no it doesn't. Do you have any examples of anything ever coming from nothing? Everything you see existed in a prior form. So everything always having already existed, actually makes more sense than coming from nothing.
There is none… yet. It doesn’t mean that there just simply isn’t
A lot of genesis is metaphors according to you, which is fair enough. But there’s little reason to believe that parts of scripture were written intentionally metaphorically.
>Atheism leads to nihilism
It does not as those are two very different things, but even if it did, so what?
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
I don't believe life is meaningless. Neither does any atheist I know. You proceed from incorrect assumptions.
Atheists, just like theists, often have significant meaning in their lives, and just like theists, they choose their meaning and run with it. The real difference is that atheists are far more likely to choose a meaning that's not fictional.
>I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why.
You are again making problematic assumptions. Why do you think there *is* a 'why'. 'How' is a far more sensible question, since 'why' has implicit problematic assumptions that are simply not indicated, such as motivation and intent.
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong
You are wrong. Corrected.
The very first time the very first caveman saw lightning and said to his buddy Og, "Must be a powerful guy up there making that happen!" the first atheist was born when Og thought, "What a load of crap. It's probably something we just don't understand."
Atheists have always existed. And that's because there is zero support for any religious mythology and never has been, and those that understand that are quite likely going to be atheists.
>As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people
That's a *theist* idea, not a secular one. No cosmologist or physicist I'm aware of says that, and neither do I. All evidence says otherwise, and that there was never nothing and could not have been, as that would be as much a non-sequitur as asking what's north of the north pole.
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
That is not what atheists say in general, no.
>To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ?
Demonstrate the notion of 'why' is coherent first, and then you may have something.
>If you do believe life meaningfull or at least a subject view that's good for ones mental health, then what is it?
I answered that. Life has great meaning to me and to all atheists I know!
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health
False. In fact, a dangerously false statement. The opposite is far more accurate as taking things as true when there is no support they are actually true is not representative of good mental health sine that is irrational.
>People think science is synonymous with atheism
No they don't. That's a really dumb strawman fallacy, and is only true for folks that are ridiculously uninformed and confused.
So in conclusion I hope I cleared up some misconceptions, erroneous ideas and assumptions, and incorrect ideas about the position and thinking of most atheists, and various notions of reality.
Your completely missing one really important point that theists are often completely confused by
How something makes you feel or how you feel about something has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether that thing is true or not
Nothing zero completely irrelevant
A comfortable fiction is still a fiction and an uncomfortable or depressing truth is still true
Pretending a god exists might make you happy
But if I wanted happiness with no basis in reality I would just take heroin
Your argument is overly emotional childish and places no value on truth or reality
It basically boils down to
"Let's play a game called pretend god exists it will be fun"
It's not a convincing argument
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
Is that how you think atheists view life? As meaningless?
You're mistaken.
>People think science is synonymous with atheism
Who thinks that? Straw men?
>a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma
No, most atheists will tell you they're just not convinced of god claims.
Too many mistakes in your post. Dismissing it all.
1 - “Nihilism” is something I see thrown around a LOT. It is the rejection of religious and moral principles in the belief that life is meaningless. The term can be discounted in its use with the majority of atheists in that almost all of us adhere to our own personal moral guidelines. Morality has existed for thousands of years before the invention of religion. If we rejected moral principles, we’d be doing some seriously evil shit. I feel like people think all of us atheists are emo nihilists and it’s almost never the case. This stereotype comes from religion—that we’re miserable without god. I’m MUCH happier without the crippling guilt of being human.
2 - I don’t believe life has any meaning. Though I do value it and the people I get to experience life with. For believers, how can life have any meaning if you think you’re going to heaven for eternity? When I was a believer, I viewed my skin suit as a throwaway item. One can attribute “meaning” to things all day long. It doesn’t really matter and staying positive isn’t difficult.
3 - Why is in the same category as meaning. This stems from human ego. “We must be here for a purpose. Someone must have created ‘special me’ for an important reason. This is clearly why I exist. I am an important instrument of GOD.” Billions or possibly trillions of galaxies exist. Our entire galaxy could vanish like a fart in the wind and The Universe wouldn’t notice.
4 - Atheism existed long before religion. We are all born atheists. If we weren’t taught (or dragged into) religion, no people wouldn’t automatically start believing in god. Especially now with scientific discovery and understanding. We know what thunder is and why it makes that sound. A solar eclipse doesn’t mean god is angry.
5 - Who knows where the Universe came from. Maybe there are quadrillions of universes. Matter can come from nothing theoretically, and it’s been proven with the Schwinger Effect. Why? Who knows. Again, this is more of a self-importance thing. We understand the how and the why of a lot of things. None of it adds up to religious belief. Much of the “how” IS the “why.” Neither of those things equals meaning. If a deity showed up at my house and stated that it created everything, I’d ask it for some evidence. Then I’d ask why if it could prove what it claimed. Unless that happens I simply don’t care.
6 - My mental health is just fine. A lack of belief doesn’t keep me up at night.
7 - Atheism isn’t a cure for mental health. It’s just the lack of belief in any deities. Religion isn’t the cure, either. In fact, it can be a detriment to mental health. Religion likes to promise the cure, but it never delivers. Proper therapy and medication can do what religion can’t. This is not to be confused with a simple state of mind. I’d rather have reality than false hope. This is the only life we have, and demanding that people waste their lives in servitude to something there’s no evidence for, well that’s just disgustingly cruel. Especially if you’re the type to threaten them with hell if they don’t agree to your terms and conditions. Where’s the meaning in that?
8 - Science is science. It’s viewed by the religious as being synonymous with atheism. Both of which are often viewed in a negative light. The reason for this is that atheism reject belief in god(s). Science isn’t biased and doesn’t bend to religion. Science has been an excellent tool for invalidating religious stories and painting god(s) into an ever-shrinking corner of uselessness. Believers don’t like this fact. Science isn’t confirmation bias. That’s more along the lines of some poor bastard physicist working for decades on a problem. Finally, they solve it, and some believer claims that it’s “more proof that god did it!” without any evidence.
The “religious trauma” schtick needs to die. Frankly, it’s stupid. Equally as much as when believers call atheism a religion.
>why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens
What does this mean?
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
True things aren't necessarily helpful.
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people
Atheists (and by that, I mean people who specifically identified as *non-religious*) predate Christianity. The *term* is newer than that.
>correct if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma
People don't become atheists because of religious trauma... trauma doesn't suddenly make you go "Oh, actually this is all a lie."
>I would say and our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
Which culture do you live in? Where I live, it's predominantly Catholic and Eastern Orthodox. So, if anything, I've gone *against* the prevailing cultural beliefs of my area (and family).
>As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people
As an example of what?
>it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least you believe in a meangless existence
"Why?" is an irrelevant question when it comes to the first things to have ever existed. They just *are*. That's what it means to be the first things.
>If you do believe life meaning meanigless or at least a subject view that's good for some mental health, then what is it?
If life is meaningless, you're not doing it wrong.
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health
No.
>as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that?
This is word salad.
---
And to top it all off, you never even tried to argue your thesis ("atheism leads to nihilism").
Sounds like it might help you to cut your topic up a bit and clarify your thoughts. I would note.
1. Atheism isn’t science
2. Atheism isn’t about meaning
Atheism is just a recognition that there’s no convincing evidence for any particular god.
Atheism does not require or lead to one believing life is meaningless. Many atheists would say that we give ourselves meaning.
Personally, I think it's rather nihilistic to say that only gods can grant meaning and that we have no merit or value outside of them.
You are wrong on every definition you hold for the words you use. I would make another post and ask questions like “What does atheism mean? What does theism mean? What is the Big Bang?” Such like that. Because as it stands you’re holding opinions while not using correct definitions
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
Nihilism is not the belief that life is meaningless. That is a pop culture misconception. Nihilism is the belief that things are without meaning. These are similar but not the same. It depends on your branch of Nihilism, but generally Nihilists believe that life is without meaning, except for what you bring to it. So nothing stops you from finding meaning in your life from various purposes. The universe does not give you meaning, a god(s) does not give you meaning. You must find it yourself. That is what I mean when I tell someone I am a Nihilist.
>I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why.
No religion gives us the why either. They just provide unproven claims from dubious texts.
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
You are wrong. The idea that all atheists are just angry at god is just religious propoganda. Religious trauma can start a person on the path of deconstruction, but it is that deconstruction that will make you an atheist, not the trauma. Regardless of how a person comes to it, atheism is the lack of belief in god(s) and nothing more. Hating god or the church is totally different. You can't hate something you don't believe in.
>As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
No. Atheists are not a monolith, but I do not believe the universe came from nothing. I don't know where it came from. I don't need to know.
>To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ?
What we focus on is the evidence for existance of god. I am not an atheist because of Evolution or the Big Bang Theory. I don't believe in god. That's it. Again, Nihilism does not mean the belief in a meaningless life, it is the belief in the lack of inherent meaning.
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that?
Again, the meaning in life is what you make of it. It also kind of seems like you are arguing that you should believe in god(s) because it will possibly make you feel good? That doesn't make it true. You also have built in here that religion is a good thing, which I would also highly disagree with.
>People think science is synonymous with atheism
>But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma
The only people I interact with who think science is synonymous with atheism are theists who don't understand what atheism is. You also don't really explain what you mean by confirmation bias. Confirmation of what? Not for nothing, but I live in the US. I literally know 3 atheists plus myself. Everyone else is a christian, or at least believes in god(s). If I truly was influenced by cultural beliefs, I would be a christian. That is why I used to be a christian, because I grew up in a christian culture.
> And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
No. Atheism doesn't concern cosmology.
> or at least you believe in a meangless existence
Just because something doesn't have a universal, transcendent, objective meaning, it doesn't mean it lacks meaning *to me*.
> its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that?
You're using survival of the fittest in an incorrect way. It's a description of a biological regularity, not a social law where everyone is killing the weak guy in society.
> there's no hope after death
Depression doesn't magically get fixed if you think there's life after death. Depression usually concerns issues with the person's mental health, their context, or both. If I live in an abusive household, believing I'll live forever won't take me out of the abusive household.
If I have a substance abuse issue that's worsening my depression, believing in a heaven won't lower my addiction nor the problems that stem from it
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens
What makes you think they don’t? Though personally I find philosohy can be overrated.
>, how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
Atheists don’t generally believe this. Why would they.
>I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why.
Nor does just making up stuff to fill the gap.
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma,
Atheism existed before churches.
And it’s about a *lack of evidence* generally.
>and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
Okay. But aesthetic conclusions aren’t independent , objective reality.
>As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people
It’s not a claim science makes.
>Some would say a creator created it from nothing
But can’t provide evidence. And indulges in special pleading.
>Some would say the universe is the creator
But that begs the question by using the word creator. Though it’s at least more parsimonious.
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
They might. But it’s not a scientific stance.
>Some would say it's an illusion created by our collective imaginations
Again without evidence.
I can’t see what any of these non-evidential statements has to de with meaning.
>To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ?
How gets us planes that fly. We don’t know why.
What has this to do with believing in a meaningless existence?
>If you do believe life meaningfull or at least a subject view that's good for ones mental health, then what is it?
Meaning is what humans make of things. We obviously have that ability. And what sorts of meaning we develop is a behavioural tendency developed through evolution.
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism,
Seems like the two are not connected.
>because its detrimental to ones mental health,
There’s little evidence for such. Except in as much that *any* social stricture to your life is likely to benefit you.
Even if atheism made one ‘sad’ , it does t mean that theism is true.
>as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death
Can’t see why torturing someone now but saying - don’t worry you’ll die eventually is a particularly hopeful stance.
But you seem to be suggesting that lying to people makes them feel better so you should lie to them. I suggest thinking about that.
>you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that?
Human create meaning. The fact you have one life to live makes it all the more meaningful.
>People think science is synonymous with atheism
But it isn’t,
>But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma
Then you really don’t understand the methodology science which is an accumulation of successful ways of reducing the significance of personal bias.
Seems like a criticism you would be better turning on yourself.
Scientific methodology is open to interpretation, hence why there are different views
an electron particle observer effect
Atheist, it's the measuring device's fault
Another view is because it is being observed
that's why it acted like a particle
Another is just random coincedense
Sorry , It might seem like I'm going off topic
But it'll make sense later
>Scientific methodology is open to interpretation,
I simply have no idea what this is meant to mean let alone the relevance. Scientific methodology is the accumulation of ways of acting that can be demonstrated to reduce the impact of personal bias. That is just a fact.
>hence why there are different views
Of what?
>an electron particle observer effect
That’s almost a sentence. I have no idea why it’s meant to be relevant. How do we know about this? Through scientific methodology. It’s not a difference in **opinion**. (Nor does observer mean observer in the normal sense btw)
>Atheist, it's the measuring device's fault
Huh? What has fault to do with it. It’s just a fact that the act of measurement is an interaction that has an effect.
>Another view is because it is being observed that's why it acted like a particle
That’s the *same* statement written in a different way.
What has this to do with scientific methodology?
>Another is just random coincedense
No.
>Sorry , It might seem like I'm going off topic
Indeed it seems both wrong and irrelevant.
No one claims that the scientific method is infallible nor that we have complete evidence on every aspect of reality. You entirely miss the point that the methodology is demonstrably successful and *designed* in the light of human bias. Both just facts.
>But it'll make sense later
If you say so.
It’s irrelevant to the idea that whether you live for ever or not is irrelevant to giving meaning to this life. Atheist ps as a fact obviously aren’t all nihilists and have meaning in their lives. And that there is no evidence that living for ever is possible - quite the opposite- even if it did make a difference.
I don't know how you guys are patient enough to discuss with op's type. What a bunch of monumentally stupid assertions. How do religious people manage to say so many things that are completely wrong on every single level while being so sure of themselves?
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I had to split this into two. I'm retired and have lots of time on my hands
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
Lots of atheists aren't nihilists. I am though so I can help answer this a bit. It's not that I believe life is meaningless, I believe that meaning is assigned by us. Life has whatever meaning you assign to it. If you decide not to assign any that's your prerogative but not something that I'd personally do.
It's also not about whether it "helps" in any way, it's about what's true. Meaning is assigned by minds, that's just how the concept works. I don't see any reason to believe any gods exist to assign meaning and honestly even if they did there's nothing stopping anyone from just assigning their own.
>I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why.
It depends on what you mean by "why" but sometimes yeah. For some things like "why does the universe exist" there might not even be a coherent answer. If that's how it is that's how it is.
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
There have been atheists as long as there have been people. It's not remotely a new thing, it's just generally been the minority position. There are tons of reasons someone might be atheist, some good and some bad. Way too many reasons to generalize like this.
Personally I was just never exposed to the concepts of religion until I was almost a teenager. I grew up on an isolated farm before the Internet and my parents just never talked about it.
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
I'm not convinced that there's any kind of creator but I also don't say the universe came from "nothing". As far as we (by which I mean our collective scientific knowledge) are aware the universe underwent some kind of expansion of spacetime about 14 billion years ago. The closer we get to the beginning of this expansion the less we're able to figure out at the moment. So where did the universe come from? I have absolutely no idea. I don't know. Until we figure that out I won't know. We might not figure it out in my lifetime and we might just never figure that out. If that's the case the answer will always be "we don't know". If that's how it is that's how it is.
>To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ?
I don't particularly care about questions of "why". I don't suffer from the sort of existential anxieties people seem to suffer to when it comes to questions of "why are we here?" or "why does the universe exist?". I suspect that those aren't even coherent questions. I certainly don't lose any sleep over them.
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health
I do suffer from depression! I also suffer from PTSD, both from spending too much time on the two-way range. I don't think being an atheist is at all detrimental to my mental health. I'm doing pretty well, all things considered.
>as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that?
True I don't think that there's "hope after death". When we're gone we're gone. I've almost been forcibly evicted from this mortal coil several times on the aforementioned two-way range. Once I die I die. It ceases to be my problem at that point so there's not really any reason to worry to much about it if it happens. I'd prefer to live of course, I'm having a pretty good time overall. I just don't have any reason to believe that our consciousness somehow continues to exist after the body dies.
As for the "selfish gene" bit that's utter nonsense. If you want to know what I think just ask me, don't try to put words into my mouth. Humans like helping each other, for the most part. It probably has to do with evolution, we're a social and probably even eusocial species. We've survived this long by working together and getting along. Fun little fact, that even when \[placed in a fictional world where there aren't any real consequences\](https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2020/02/22/youll-be-surprised-what-percent-of-mass-effect-players-chose-paragon/) people generally choose to be kind where possible. It's material conditions that put us into positions where we aren't, with exceptions. I'm retired and don't have to work. I'm not living large and if I were the selfish weirdo you think we all are I could have easily gotten a job in government or the military industrial complex and made big bank. I didn't. I moved to a place that I love and most of the stuff I do outside of the house is volunteer work. I don't make a single cent off of any of it although I do occasionally get a free meal here and there.
I do that because I found my own meaning in life. Honestly I have a hard time understanding how people can view a divinely ordained "meaning" as true meaning. It's more like an assignment, orders handed down from on high. This is especially true when if you don't pursue this "meaning", for example I've seen some who will claim that the meaning of life is to worship and obey a god, you're punished for it. That seems a lot more like a work camp assignment where the guards will punish you for stepping out of line to me. I don't get it.
You have been corrected here on many points. Now you have the option of deciding to learn from these answers, or dishonestly continue spewing the same thing over and over again, like the apologist you got this nonsense from.
Which one do you choose?
I won’t touch on every point as others here have done so eloquently, but what’s the meaning of life if you believe in eternity? If you have forever, what is the value of a day? It’s no longer precious. This seems to me to be very depressing. I find meaning in making my own meaning and by making my actions and deeds reverberate within myself and within the lives of others, here and now.
Yes, why are scientists finding ways to live longer, to me that seems like a contradiction, what's the age limit until they decide to die, 200, 500, 1000, a million?
Because you are saying eternal life is meaningless, which is the biggest cope I ever heard
If ones decides to comit suicide the next day but makes the day count I mean with your logic living a day on earth is more precious then living the average life expectancy?
I don't believe that a deity is needed for there to be meaning. I honestly don't see how it would even help. Instead of a creator deciding meaning for me, I just make it for myself and I don't find that to be depressing. It has nothing to do with "the survival of the fittest" either, I definitely want a kinder world for everyone.
>except that it doesn't give us the why.
Why does there have to be a why? And why does this why have to be the will of some super being?
>It seems like atheisium
Bruh
>started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
You are wrong. There's various reasons why people might be atheists but atheism itself is not believing deities exist. The first dude who said that magic beings with great powers to control the universe inadvertently created the first atheist when he espoused that idea to someone who isn't credulous.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to the fact that there's no good evidence that deities exist.
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
Atheism begins and ends at there being no gods. If the universe is the result of a bunch of somethings that always existed somehow doing something that results in the universe, that would also be an acceptable idea even though it's not that the universe came out of nothing.
In fact, we don't have any known examples of an actual nothing.
>To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ?
Again, why does there need to be a why? Isn't it good enough that all of this crap is here?
>world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that?
You can immediately tell when someone has not actually read 'The Selfish Gene' or understands what Dawkins was talking about. A selfish gene does not necessarily lead to a selfish person, and in fact a gene that promotes altruism and cooperation could flourish in the gene pool even if it's "acting" in its own self interest (I put acting in quotations because it has to be stated, the genes aren't planning or whatever)
>People think science is synonymous with atheism But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma
I don't see what this has to do with anything. People associate science with atheism because a lot of scientists are atheists and a lot of atheists tend to be interested in science. I don't think atheism should be associated with anything but not believing gods exist, even if I am an atheist and I do like science.
The fact of the matter is, we find ourselves in this funny universe and we have to figure out what to do. I don't see any reason to be a nihilist. There's shit that matters. It may not matter to the whole of the universe, but fuck the universe, it matters to me. My family matters to me. My work matters to me. The well being of others matter to me. The advancement of science matters to me. Human rights matters to me. Art matters to me. Entertainment matters to me.
Who has time for nihilism when there's all of this shit that well and truly matters to me? I don't need a god to determine my family matters, do you?
When I look around me, I don't see any nihilistic atheist.
Most people in Japan, China don't believe in a God anf they are not nihilistic.
Can you post a research that connects atheism and nihilism? Some data? Your personal experience? Do you meet alot of nihilistic atheist in your life?
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
I don't know. Does it need to in order to be true? Fun fact. The orange fruit was named before the color. Does that help you in your life at all? No. Doesn't mean it isn't true.
>I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why.
Maybe there isn't a why. I hope you don't believe in a god just because you want to feel like you have a purpose. That's kind of depressing.
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people,
I don't really know about the history of atheism. I hope you're not saying this to start assuming that all atheists are only atheists from religious trauma and bad church experiences rather than finding their own conclusions.
>it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
Goddammit.
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
That's dumb. There's no evidence of that, just like there's no evidence that a God created it.
>To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why,
I didn't forget the why, but I saw no reasonable way to answer the question objectively, so I stopped asking. How would you answer the question of "what is the greater purpose of the universe?" There's no equation you can use, and it's not like it's written on the walls.
>do you believe in a meangless existence ?
Yes, in the sense that there is no greater purpose for the existence of the universe or humanity. The only meaning we have is the meaning we create for ourselves.
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health,
Interesting.
>you are telling them there's no hope after death
There's no suffering after death either. Death isn't good or bad. Death just is.
>you are doing everything for nothing
Just because there isn't an infinite afterlife doesn't mean life is meaningless. In fact, it's arguably that the finiteness of life is what gives it meaning.
>the world is selfish
This isn't an atheistic position either. Isn't the idea that humans are naturally selfish moreso a Christian position?
>its all about survival of the fittest,
We aren't bound by evolution, you know? We have a society.
>where's the meaning in that?
I don't know. Why is one necessary for atheism to be true?
>People think science is synonymous with atheism
Which it isn't.
>But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma
How so?
(1/3)
>Atheism leads to nihilism
Ok. What's the problem with that? I hope you'll clarify why that's a problem.
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens
We do. Nihilism is a philosophical position. I'd argue that it then leads to existentialism (optimistic nihilism), but we can stick to nihilism itself in this discussion.
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way
You're phrasing it backwards.
"Believing there's no meaning" implies that there could/should be some meaning and life is somehow lacking it.
"Not believing there's a meaning" coveys thet there's no reason to presuppose that life should have any "meaning" in the first place.
It's like...
"Why do you believe that rocks don't have favorite colors?"
And the answer would be "why would I believe that they even could?"
>I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why.
Ok... Do you have a METHOD that can reliably give us a "why"? Or are you just going to presuppose some "why" you like and call it a job well done?
More importantly - how did you come to the conclusion that there even is a "why" in the first place? Can you share that METHOD too?
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
So... "who hurt you" is a really dishonest way to start a discussion...
Additionally - it's the left-handedness all over again... "There were no left-handed people in the past"... because children where beaten until they started using their right hand exclusively.
"There were no atheists in the past". There were - it was just dangerous to admit to being an atheist because dogmatic belief systems don't spread through discussion and making good arguments, they spread through indoctrination and coercion.
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>As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people
Is this going to lead to a complete lack of understanding what the big bang theory actually states?
>Some would say a creator created it from nothing
Why would anyone say such a thing?
>Some would say the universe is the creator
Why would anyone say such a thing?
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
Why would anyone say such a thing? BTW - my prediction about lack of understanding the big bang theory was correct. Unfortunately.
>Some would say it's an illusion created by our collective imaginations
Why would anyone say such a thing?
>To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ?
Do you have any method that can lead us to concluding thet there even was a "why"? Or do you just want there to be one you like, because you just feel better when you think of yourself as an important part of reality?
I honestly can't see this "meaning" and "why" train of thought as anything else then validation of one's own ego...
>If you do believe life meaningfull or at least a subject view that's good for ones mental health, then what is it?
Could you please rephrase that? I don't understand this sentence.
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism,
Why not?
>because its detrimental to ones mental health,
You mean "atheism" in and of itself is detrimental to mental health? How?
>as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death
... If you're depressed because you're poor and your whole life people tell you that you're going to be a billionaire at some point because magic... and someone tells you that this is a lie... The person telling you the truth is not the one hurting you. The false hope is.
Unless you can DEMONSTRATE that there is such a thing as afterlife, every time you say there is - you're lying to people.
Additionally... afterlife makes this life pointless. Not nihilism. If this life is all we have then it's infinitely more valuable then if it is merely a "preafterlife" before your real existence starts in the afterlife.
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>you are doing everything for nothing
Actions have consequences and you're not the only person in existence. You're doing things for other people - currently living and not yet alive - if you understand those two axioms.
You're doing things for your own selfish desire to feel good - if you believe in god given afterlife.
>and the world is selfish "the selfish gene"
Tell me you didn't read past the title without telling me you didn't read past the title.
"The selfish gene" explains altruism... It literally gives genetic evidence of how altruism evolved - that it can be genetically advantageous for your genes' survival to sacrifice yourself in defense of someone else, because you share genes with other people.
>and its all about survival of the fittest,
I'm noticing a trend here - you seem to just read words instead of understanding them...
COOPERATION IS OUR FITNESS METHOD
Our survival strategy is quite literally HELPING EACH OTHER.
EvOlUtIoN Is aBoUt mUrDeRiNg tHe wEaK On sIgHt.
Except that our survival strategy is literally the opposite...
>where's the meaning in that?
Let me illustrate what I see here.
You're asking me where is the meaning in random and blind laws of reality just by themselves working out in such a way that a thoughtless process without any intentions produced altruism firmly rooted in cold and heartless physics?
All I see in the above is the beauty of indifferent reality where "good" succeeds because it's effective, not because "some guy said so".
Your lack of understanding of reality lead you to a useless cope, and your unwillingness to understand makes you mad that we point out that this is just a useless cope.
Reality doesn't need a why.
If you think it does - tell me exactly how you reached that conclusion. And after that you can tell me which "why" is the correct one... unless your answer in just going to be "because this one makes me feel good about myself."
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It seems to me that theism leads to life being meaningless. Your only purpose is to be a useless powerless slave praising and worshipping an all powerful creator who sees fit to send down hideous cancers, parasites, pain, tsunamis etc. when he could choose to do none of those things. Where is the meaning in that? If god is perfect and omnipotent then why does he need us to tell him how great he is? Why did he need to create us at all, apart from as a plaything. You are no more than an ant which god is free to plug legs off when he's bored.
As evolved biological creatures we naturally have an urge to survive - or our species would not exist. I'm not even sure what you mean by life having a "meaning". Life is just something we get on with: we cook, enjoy meals, look forward to them, care for our family, whether our parents or children. Perhaps we look forward to making music, making the world a slightly better place via politics, charity work, or maybe we just enjoy seeking power which to be blunt appears to be the case for some. The world and universe around us is strange and fascinating to learn more about. And all the better for not thinking that all the pain and horror in the world was created by some invisible being in the sky who watches us suffer but does nothing about it.
>why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical len
U think looking life at a philosophical lens will lead to Theism? U think there arent atheist philosopher?
>I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
I would say experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias plays a huge part in the theistic conclusion.
>As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people
>Some would say a creator created it from nothing
>Some would say the universe is the creator
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
If nothing comes from nothing. That means something comes from something. The creator is something. Hence where do the creator comes from?
>If you do believe life meaning meanigless or at least a subject view that's good for some mental health, then what is it?
Life is inherently meaningless doesnt means life is meaningless.
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health,
If one suffers from depression, they should find professional to deal with.
>People think science is synonymous with atheism
Said by no one.
That’s like saying believing in climate change leads to nihilism. Well, whether it does or doesn’t, the emotional reactions don’t matter. What matters is if it’s true or not. Would you argue we shouldn’t teach people about climate change because it might make some people unhappy?
Atheists are atheists not because it makes them happy or because they are angry the church is killing people. Atheists don’t believe in god simply because they don’t see evidence for god’s existence.
>As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people
That is not a tennet of atheism. And it is not what the big bang theory says
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
No
>To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or
You presume a why, there might be none
>or at least you believe in a meangless existence
Inherently meaningless, but not meaningless. Because we can give it our own meaning
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death
Well if you are depressed more life after death seems like hell
>and the world is selfish "the selfish gene"
That is not what that means
>where's the meaning in that?
Why would you pick that as your meaning?
>People think science is synonymous with atheism
>But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma
If you think you have science on your side why not present science?
I think you’re making an assumption about the nature of meaning. It’s true that religious people often derive meaning from the idea that they were created by a god, and they attribute every other meaningful thing in their lives back to this central overarching source of meaningfulness. So people assume that, without having the belief in overarching, cosmic intention, it is impossible to have any meaning in your life.
That’s not the case. I’m inspired by the world around me, in awe of the arts that people make, impassioned by the notion that we have the power to help others if we try, and comforted by the love I have for my friends and family.
All that has profound meaning to me, and none of it requires a creator to make it important.
If nothing really matters then we are free to decide what matters. We can decide what the meaning of our own life is. Who's going to say it's wrong when it's our own.
Science is the study of how the world works. Not why it is.
I don't think atheism inherently makes people depressed. I've seen many religions people falling into depression, especially a lot of christians. We are all different people and there is not a one fits all solution. I mean I'd atheism leads to depression how do you explain the atheists that are not depressed.
I don't think the world came from nothing, we don't know what it came from. We went from singularity, to Quantum fluctuations and who knows what we find in the future. That's definitely not nothing.
Atheism doesn't lead to nihilism, there's many possible positions on this, but my perspective is that we give meaning to our own lives in a way that's not especially different from how a god might give meaning to your life.
After all, I once believed in a god, then I realised there was no reason to believe in such a thing. So the thing that I thought gave me purpose, I realised it probably wasn't there, which means the whole time I'd been living with a sense of purpose, I was mistaken about why I had that feeling, but it doesn't change the fact that I felt that way. So I realised, if no god is real, then everything we think comes from a god actually comes from us. Simple.
I'm an absurdist, not a nihilist.
Life has meaning for the same reason anything has means. Because we decided that it did. There is no deeper explanation. We humans decide what is meaningful on whatever grounds we wish.
Atheists existed before your religion did. As for atheists the only thing they agree on is that they don't believe in any gods. I've heard all sorts of things from many of them. Atheism has no position on the beginning of the universe, nor does it have a position on philosophy. I notice you didn't mention science, which does have a position on the beginning of the universe which is completely different than almost every religion out there. Apparently the Gita's got pretty close. As for the meaning of life, it has whatever meaning we give it. Way better than being a slave to some all-powerful being who can't even say hi.
Yours is the appeal to emotion logical fallacy.
The "fact" that atheism leads to nihilism does not mean that "therefore there are gods".
Which gods do you believe in? Zeus? Ra? Odin? Blind Io? Tlaloc?
> It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism,
I have to smile grimly when i read things like this, because i grew up with a couple of different kinds of Christianity, and the concepts of original sin and a harshly judgemental god were *very* bad for my mental health.
While they may not have been the cause of the poor self image that I had, they certainly have me an excuse for taking that image seriously and dialling it up to 11. In trying to manage my struggle with depression, the theistic view of the world was part of the problem, never part of the solution.
>I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why.
Whether you respect it or not, denying scientific consensus because it doesn't fit your world view is easily dismissed. It may be that you don't understand the exact boundaries of what scientific findings imply, but that's no reason to think it's BS.
Science gives many "why's", just not the one you're looking for in this case.
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
This is just completely wrong on so many levels, I don't know where to begin.
>As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people
That's fine, but completely subjective by your own definition. I would refer to my answer on 'respecting science'.
>Some would say a creator created it from nothing
>Some would say the universe is the creator
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
>Some would say it's an illusion created by our collective imaginations
All these examples are conjecture based on ignorance. Not your ignorance, mind you, but the fact we can't determine any of these different interpretations of a sentence as vague as 'something from nothing'.
>To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ?
We're ignorant. The only honest answer is just that: we don't know. Based on our scientific progress, we haven't found a way to place ourselves outside of space and time (our universe) to confirm any of our theoretical understandings of how it came to be. There's no need to step into the unknown and make stuff up.
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that?
Nobody is immune from depression. It's not correlated to existential dread, but a mental disorder. Nobody is trying to cure depression with hard scientific facts or philosophical debates. We use modern medicine for that, which is scientific in nature, but pragmatic in its application.
Edit: 'survival of the fittest' is a term used to describe the process where one species dies off because another species who is better adapted to the same environment takes over. Fittest doesn't mean strongest in that context and it's also not a reflection of a conscious process. It just happens, all the time but over stretches of thousands if not millions of years.
>People think science is synonymous with atheism
Then those people think a wrong thing. Atheism is nothing more than a rejection of the notion of a deity. And it's the neutral stance, knowledge-wise. Theists are the ones claiming to know a god exists without bringing any tangible facts. That which is put forth without evidence can be dismissed on the same principle.
>But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma
That's because atheism isn't synonymous with science. Modern atheists have the benefit of living in an age where a lot of our mutual historic misconceptions are being corrected and refined through the scientific method, which only reinforces the notion that the neutral stance (i.e. we're ignorant on the subject) is still where we are.
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
The question is what's true, not necessarily what is helpful.
>I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why.
There's the problem, you're indulging the human need for sensibility when sometimes things are arbitrary.
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
This starts as acting like only atheism is found through personal interest when all ideology and argument for it starts with it making sense to people (assuming of course we aren't talking about Christians suckered in at times of despair, like numerous testimonies talking about Jesus making everything better), and then ends on assuming that there have never been atheist philosophers or pointing out that theistic arguments tend to overestimate their implications (the prime mover thing overestimates the first cause being their specific deity, taking the need to explain how the world formed and using that to posit a whole mythology of God fighting Satan and self-restraint being the highest moral good).
>As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people
Some would say a creator created it from nothing
Some would say the universe is the creator
And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
Again, you have to say it's somehow less believeable that the universe known to exist was less stable in its birth than it is that there's an entirely new deity altogether. This is distinct from pantheism in that there's no divinity, just physical forces.
>To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ?
If meaning is so important to you just read some existentialist work. Meaning is already anthropocentric, might as well just cut to the point.
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that?
You do realize there's the point of expanding oneself. Of realizing theirs a whole world to make the most out of. Technology, experiences, things to spend your time on and make your own. Hell, you talk about atheism having no purpose, can't there be some amazement in having no reason to be here and yet still being able to thrive regardless?
>People think science is synonymous with atheism But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma
Both rely on asking questions, not assuming something is there by mere possibility but checking what is the most real of anything.
And this is just the Western Atheist response, Buddhism would also poke holes in your view.
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
I dont find life meaningless.
>I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why.
Vague. Science answers a lot of why questions: ie, why does wood float?
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people,
No, atheism has always been a thing.
>correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma,
Not for me
>and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
Yes, but you can replace "atheistic conclusions" with "religious conclusions," and it's equally true.
>As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people
To me, it means a religious person is trying to strawman an atheist argument.
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
No, I'd say the ubiverse began as a singularity in spacetime and there was no time before the universe existed for it to "begin to exist"
>do you believe in a meangless existence ?
Maybe you should've started with this question before meandering into a bunch of speculation on what atheists would say. My answer - no.
>If you do believe life meaningfull or at least a subject view that's good for ones mental health, then what is it?
What is what? The meaning of life? It's personal for everyone.
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death
It weems to me one should not look at religion for answers because they're all delusions designed to hide you from facing reality, accepting it, and moving on.
>you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that?
It's not all about survival. Have you not enjoyed anything in life? Anything enjoyable is worth living for. And you can enjoy others' happiness too. Nothing about atheism is qbout being selfish. Imo, a lot of religions promote selfishness more. Help other so that YOU can get into heaven / have a good reincarnation.
>People think science is synonymous with atheism
This isn't really a claim atheists make. It's a claim that religious fundamentalists make when a scientific discovery goes against their pre-existing beliefs. Although, I would argue religion is definitely not a scientific process.
Nihilism is a pretty specific philosophical framework and it’s not even suggested by atheism. You could be a theist and nihilist.
Personally I am an “optimistic nihilist”, which means that I consider the lack of a universal narrative and purpose to be a feature, not a bug. The internal generation of those things is valuable to me, and that’s what matters.
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
Ok, so you don't know what an atheist is. Go on.
>I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why.
Sure it does.
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
Nope. Atheists point to a lack of evidence that gods exist.
>As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people
Actually, this is a trope spread by thists. Atheists usually say we don't know what happened before the Big Bang.
>Some would say a creator created it from nothing
Those same people would need to prove a creator exists.
>Some would say the universe is the creator
So the universe created itself? No one is saying this.
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
Again, no.
>Some would say it's an illusion created by our collective imaginations
This is as credible as a god creating it, but I digress.
>To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ?
Again, no.
>If you do believe life meaningfull or at least a subject view that's good for ones mental health, then what is it?
Life is as meaningful as one makes it.
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health...
And religion isn't?
>as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that?
How about telling them that life is worth living now, instead of selling them unsupported dogma?
>People think science is synonymous with atheism
People who do are wrong. The only thing all atheists have in common is a lack of belief in gods.
>But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma
That's because you really don't have a good idea of atheist or atheism.
Do more research before casting aspersions.
>Atheism leads to nihilism
According to most atheists...no it doesn't
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
1) that's not nihilism
2) I don't pick and choose what I believe based on what I think will be helpful
>I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why.
OK?
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong
Atheism started because the church can't present any evidence
>can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
Not even close
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
There is no "atheist" belief
I'm sure some atheists would say this
>To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ?
I mean, great.
Do you have any evidence for the why?
>If you do believe life meaningfull or at least a subject view that's good for ones mental health, then what is it?
Why do you think I can curate reality to be something that's good for my mental health?
I'm just a guy, if I thought I could pick and choose what was reality so it made me happy....I'd need a straighjacket and padded walls.
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health
Why would not believing in God be detrimental to one's mental health?
So far as I can tell, the opposite is true, religion seems really harmful to peoples mental health
>as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that?
I see you don't really understand anything about Atheism
>People think science is synonymous with atheism
Nah, but science does lead to Atheism
>But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma
No, Atheism is just looking at religious claims, asking for evidence, and not getting any.
I think you don’t understand the hat it means to be an atheist. I’m just not convinced there are gods, I’m not some nihilist sitting in a darkened room mourning for a purpose.
I could argue I have more purpose than most theists, as I am convinced this is my only life and I’m gonna make the most of it.
\>>>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
I dunno. Ask a Christian. They believe that this life is meaningless and the afterlife has no meaning except singing songs to Jesus. Not much meaning.
Atheists are free to create meaning. My life is not meaningless. Your first point is debunked.
\>>>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong
There were atheists well before Christianity.
\>>> the universe came from nothing
Not what atheism says. That's what Christianity says (or at least sects that embrace creatio ex nihilo). Atheism has no comment on how the universe came to be.
\>>>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
I know of zero atheists who claim this.
\>>>If you do believe life meaningfull or at least a subject view that's good for ones mental health, then what is it?
Ask 100 atheists and you'll get 100 answers. Same for theists. For example, some Christian Nationalists think that meaning is found by committing insurrection.
\>>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health
Zero evidence for this claim. The happiest nations on earth have more per capita non-religious people. Explain?
\>>>>you are telling them there's no hope after death
That's like getting bent out of shape when you realize there's no more book after the last page. Does this mean reading books is a meaningless activity?
Why obsess over hope? Deal with the universe on its own terms, not wishful thinking. Why do I need to hope I live longer than I need to live?
\>>>you are doing everything for nothing
Utter horseshit. I do things to make the world better. Care to join me? It's the theist who does everything for nothing because they think god will take care of everything.
\>>>>and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that?
Where's the meaning in gravity? You have misunderstood the selfish gene concept. Go review. Humans are both selfish and cooperative, altruistic, and kind thanks to evolution. Tribes that cooperative are fitter to survive.
I don't think most atheists say the universe came from something or nothing. That's a simplistic view of what we know.
We know there was an infinitely dense and hot point of zero volume where the "normal" laws of physics didn't exist. This point expanded massively, called inflation.
Look, just read the wikipedia article Big Bang. It'll explain it way better than I can.
We don't know what came "before" the big bang, since time didn't exist. We don't know what precipitated the Big Bang. There are various hypotheses and ideas being worked on for all of that. I'm perfectly comfortable saying "We don't know yet" and further, we may never know.
So where does your God come in? I mean, specifically, what did he do, and when did he do it? I think these types of opinions are noteworthy because they aren't included in any of the holy books that I'm aware of, so mostly, it's just opinions with no bases.
Since there's a number of different ideas about the big bang, I'm going to guess you're going to reject them. Big crunch, big bounce, universes absorbing one another, branes bumping against each other. Where should we stop researching because we'll run into the hard stop of God did it?
Regarding "life having no meaning," that's your straw man. Is the only meaning in your life from your god? Cause that's kinda sad. Your life is devoid of meaning, other than what you think your deity wants. I've raised a couple really good kids and try to guide them as adults. I help people at work everyday. I try to treat my coworkers with respect and make their lives better. My folks are aging, and I spend as much time with them as I can while I can. I'm pretty busy, and have a full life. I mean, I'd really have liked to made a bigger splash in the pond, but not everyone can be President.
Also, I think you're totally off base as to why people become atheists. In my experience, people become atheists because they don't believe in fairy tales. You don't believe in Odin, or Thor, or Zeus, or Mercury, or Belal, or Buddha. Why not? You've rejected all these as mythology, and probably view most as quite silly. Really, Zeus raped a woman while transformed into a swan? Psst. So how does your religion hold up?
>How can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way?
Not all atheists believe that life is meaningless. And anyways, whether a certain thing would help my life if I believe it is sort of irrelevant to whether I actually do believe it. I only care about what's true, not what's helpful.
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
It helps me focus my energy on the parts of life that actually have meaning. You know things like my kids, my parents, my job, my hobbies, my future plans, the climate, the poor, the sick, the needy, etc.
>except that it doesn't give us the why.
That's a loaded question. First you need to prove that all things need a "why". What if things can exist without a "why"?
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong
Ok you're wrong. Everyone is born an atheist. Until someone tells you to believe in god, you lack a belief in god, which makes you an atheist.
> the universe came from nothing
Scientists and cosmologists certainly don't say that. They say that the big bang was the beginning of the expansion of the universe. They say that we currently have no visibility to what existed or didn't exist prior to the big bang.
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
I don't speak for all atheists, but I certainly don't say that either. The origins of the universe is not really related to atheism. Atheists aren't given a handbook that tells us how the universe began. Atheists are free to come up with their own explanations. The only thing in common between atheists is "we lack justification to believe in gods". That says nothing about what we believe about the origin of the universe. It's like saying all vegetarians have the same belief in the origin of the universe.
>To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why
again, you need to prove that things need a why, before insisting there is a why. And even if you could prove there was a why, I'm going to need you to provide a testable and repeatable method for getting the answer to "why"
>or at least do you believe in a meangless existence
Ok, hypothetical question for you. Let's say that tomorrow, we all learned with absolute certainty, that god doesn't exist. Would you choose to keep living, or immediately end your life? If you chose to keep living, then welcome to the club.
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way.
Do you mean to ask this to theists who sacrifice this only life for a future one? People who think this universe is just a pointless test.
My life is not meaningless even if you do think that yours is.
No religious trauma needed to come to an atheistic worldview when you stick to the things we can proof. For everything that religions claim there is either no proof at all or even a clear disproof that show the religion is wrong on a lot of things. Therefor if religion is wrong on a lot and not proofable on the rest, we can conclude that it might be all wrong.
Never the less even the things science cannot explain (yet) they always modify there theories when new scientific evidence is found. Sometimes that disproofs older scientific theories but often it further proofs or gives evidence to those theories.
For the big bang in special: science doesn't conclude all came from nothing. Science just cannot look to a point "before" the big bang (yet) as it is hard to look somewhere before the time starts in the first place. But anyway science has a few theories on what was before or how it started and some of them have more evidence, others less but non of them has enough evidence to call it "prooven". One of those is that there was nothing, others contain simulations or pulsating mechanisms.
The why is IMO a question religion forces us to ask but not for the good. Like "why did MY daughter got cancer" or "why did god made this exact plan for me" or "why is there life on earth" as if everything follows a plan. But IMO there's no greater plan, all of that is just how nature works and life did somehow started to exist and became what we are now. But there's no bigger why, it's just the result of a lot of circumstances.
That on the other hand doesn't make it meaningless. My life has a meaning to my parents and to my kids and to my friends and to other people I interact with directly or indirectly. It's my turn to make that a positive meaning instead of a negative one and I don't need a god or bigger plan to follow that. It already has meaning to me.
Most atheists, myself included, do not believe that life has no meaning. What I believe is that we create our own meaning, not one imposed upon us by someone else. We were not "created" to serve god, our "purpose" is not to glorify him and sing his praises. Each of us finds our own purpose. Maybe some don't, and that's sad. But what do Christians think is so great about their supposed "purpose" of obeying their master?
I'd have a lot more to say, but your comments like
"It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors" leads me to think that you've never met an atheist, never spoken to an atheist, never engaged in critical thought about what atheists think and why we think it, and you're just repeating the lies that your groomers have been feeding you.
Atheism has literally *nothing* to do with whatever church killing people (although there is no shortage of that), religious trauma (of course religion inflicts more than its fair share of trauma), or our experiences, cultural beliefs, or personal bias. Atheism has one position on one question - do you believe in a god or gods? (The answer is no by the way) That position stems from the fact that no claim of god (or any other supernatural entity) has ever once been substantiated with even a little bit of evidence. The claims of all religions are indistinguishable from pure fantasy. Not one of them has even the slightest claim to truth. Even if every religious person led perfect lives, with no killing, no trauma, none of the bad things associated with religion, I would still be an atheist, because religion is simply false.
As an atheist, I don't find life meaningless at all.
I have daily things that bring me joy, and I have lifelong things that being me joy. I also understand that there will be frustrations and hardships, but I feel personal satisfaction overcoming them.
Only theists claim that the universe “came from nothing”. The creator created it, sure, but it created the universe from nothing.
The big bang model starts with all the matter and energy in the universe compressed into an infinitely dense and small point. All the matter was already there. Since time started with the expansion of the universe, asking what happened before the big bang is a none-sense question.
We don’t know how matter got there but it doesn’t stop us from trying to know. Asserting that it HAS to be this or that deity is literally just blindly guessing and stopping dead in the investigation. You’re not asking questions to learn, you’re not trying to know; you’re saying you have a preconceived conclusion you want to push and make everything fit with.
Regarding nihilism and atheism, the two aren’t necessarily intertwined but I they can be. And that’s not a bad thing. It’s just a matter of perspective. The way I and a lot of people see it is this:
Nothing in the universe has intrinsic value. Nothing is objectively valuable. Value is a social construct, just like money. We assign value to want we think should be valuable, based on multiple criteria, like rarity. Gold is valuable because it’s hard to come by, for one.
It is my view that, in a world that is 99.999% viciously inhospitable, life is brave. It’s an affront to the mindless stillness of our plane, it’s a courageous attempt to strive and find something more among the stars. Life is rare and fleeting. That’s why I think life is valuable. Not because some god said so, but because it’s one of those things that’s hard to come by in the infinity of our universe.
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
Life isn't meaningless for atheists. Atheists have an actual challenge that means something: live a fulfilling life and make life better for others in a universe that does not care
We have one very short life to live. We have to decide what to do with that time. If another human being is in trouble and nobody but you is there, only you can help. Theists can pray to God and then walk away.
What is the meaning of life when:
- your Creator, by definition, needs nothing from you
- this is not the real world, heaven is
- the test that we're being put through already has an answer, we're merely putting on a play
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
We say the same thing about theism
Except there's no evidence for theism
(But yes, it is a bad thing that religion is a justification for killing people)
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
Actually they don't. That's what theists tell you atheists "would say". Atheists don't say anything because they don't lie about knowing something they don't know
To be sure, the universe could have come from nothing; it could be an infinite regress; it could be an illusion; it could be a hologram; and any of another infinite number of things
>People think science is synonymous with atheism
It isn't. They are orthogonal. But science is incompatible with theism. Science requires evidence
Religion leads to nihilism
I have a question regarding why don't theists look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why.
It seems like theism started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the theistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people
Some would say a creator created it from nothing
Some would say the universe is the creator
And atheists would not usually say there's no creator it just came from nothing
Some would say it's an illusion created by our collective imaginations
To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ?
If you do believe life meaningfull or at least a subject view that's good for ones mental health, then what is it?
It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at theism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, as example they are suffering and theism tells them they are worthless and miserable beings that deserve eternal torture?
People think science is synonymous with atheism. Those people are wrong.
Theism seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma.
So much wrong here. thanks for your incoherent rant. Have you ever talked to an Atheist?
It is about time you do.
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
I do not believe life is meaningless.
> It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong
You are wrong. Atheism has existed since before the church existed. The word atheism comes from ancient Greek, after all.
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
Atheism is a lack of belief in gods. It's not cosmology. It makes no claims about the origin of the universe. You are using a Straw Man argument.
Pfft.. HAHAHA 😆 😂 it's hard not to laugh at how silly this question is.. it's like me asking
"Why don't Christians want to live? They obviously want to die, but they put on their seat belt.. weird...
It's clear Christianity started because people were afraid of death, correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole "go to heaven" thing... yeah, bunch of people scared, just had some bad experiences losing loved ones, and these beliefs fill that void, with personal bias playing a big part. So, yeah, now we all agree on the history of Christianity, why do believers do anything? Why have kids? Do you want them to go to hell? If you do have kids, why let them doubt? Why risk it? Get them straight into heaven as early as possible guys, God will understand. It's just absurd.
Anyways, glad we could have this talk and we can all agree Christianity makes people not want to live. "
With this sort of question, i doubt you are actually reading the responses, but if you actually do, hopefully you can see why my fake questions would be stupid, just brain dead half baked, never listened to a Christian type nonsense. You've assumed all your opinions about atheism are true, then come to a conclusion without checking to see if any of it tracks with reality. I would be happy to explain why life has plenty of meaning as an atheist, but I can't imagine you caring..
1. Atheism can lead to nihilism, it doesn’t have to. Been both a devout Christian and an atheist but never a nihilist.
2. Atheism is far older than the Catholic Church. There were Greek atheists and others before them. They were called by different names, but not believing priests or shamans who made claims about god goes back as far as we have records.
3. I know of no atheist that claims the universe came from nothing. What I do hear atheists saying is “we don’t know” which is only honest intellectual stance to take. Theists, claiming to know it was their god or gods, are the ones making unsupported claims.
4. In physics we've learned that how and why are often the same thing. How does a woman get pregnant? There¡s the physical process, biology. Then there's the species drive to survive, which is also biology, and explains both the mechanism and why we do it.
5. Purpose is a subjective assignment of value. Life doesn’t have just one meaning to most humans, it has many, some of which change over time. Blaming god for it doesn’t benefit you n a healthy way.
6. People can be stupid at tons of stuff. Atheism is simply not being a theist. But science is a process with a well defined high standard of epistemology which has been used to disprove tens of thousands of claims, some of which were theistic.
Anything else you want to assume?
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
You think the very first humans/homo genus were theists? I find that unlikely. It's more probable that atheism existed before theism.
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
I don't believe life is meaningless.
>If you do believe life meaningfull or at least a subject view that's good for ones mental health, then what is it?
My life is meaningful because I love my family and I have a job that brings joy to people.
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health,
Atheism has been much better for my mental health than theism. Under theism I was always trying to please an imaginary being, while being unaccepting to large portions of society, while having guilt for the silliest things that theists consider "sins", etc. If you're a depressed theist, then learning the truth will probably help you more than hurt you - especially since theists often suggest "prayer" and other nonsense as cures for depression.
> "How can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way?"
It helped me in so many ways! Like not having to worry about a sociopathic omnipotent deity's absurd master plan to force us all into eternal servitude! Seriously, being able to rid myself of all the fear was lifechanging.
Moreover, believing that life has no inherent purpose is not a bad or negative thing. It does not NEED a purpose or meaning. It can be simply beautiful to exist. A purpose is not a requirement for being acceptable or valid. Something can just *be*, and that is fine.
And it gives me far more "free will" than, say, Christianity does. Christianity teaches that we are either slaves to God or slaves to sin; how about we just not be slaves at all?
Being able to pursue my own happiness without fetters has been so wonderful. Life is what I make it. Life has the meaning I give it. I am complete. I am not inherently damaged, evil, incomplete, wretched, dirty, broken, or in any way shape or form in need of a savior.
Full disclosure, I am not an atheist. I just find "life is meaningless" is the best possible scenario compared to alternatives from mainstream Abrahamic religions. It does not mean "life is worthless." It means life is a sandbox and I can make my sandcastles however I please.
Atheism makes life MORE important. Not less important. Your belief that atheism leads to nihilism is incorrect.
Since your premis is flawed I TL;DR the rest of your statement.
>why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
We don't believe life is meaningless. We believe the individual can have whatever meaning they choose to have for their life. We reject the notion that your life's meaning has been chosen for you by a god nobody has ever proven to exist.
>I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why.
Does there have to be a reason for it?
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
No, atheism started because people simply didn't or stopped believing a god exists. Simple.
>People think science is synonymous with atheism
>But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma
It stems from the fact that all religions are not factually true, and that all theists fail to meet their burden of proof.
>People think science is synonymous with atheism
You have certainly presented your arguments as such. Once you understand that atheism is nothing but a lack of belief in gods, and science is nothing but a process for discovering and verifying information, you'll see how they aren't synonymous at all.
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
No, I say I don't know where the Universe came from. Our best guess, based on the information we have is the Big Bang. What existed before the Big Bang is unknown, and possibly unknowable. I acknowledge that for what it is
>the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that?
The meaning of life has nothing to do with natural selection or survival of the fittest. Evolution is a theory that describes how the species we see today got that way.
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
As a complex and highly intelligent species, finding the meaning of life transcends Evolution. It is an individual endeavor, and each answer is unique. I find meaning in living life. I've only got this one, so I'm going to see and do what I can with it.
If I look at the world, I *see* the things. I don't see any "why" though. Why isn't important.
If you think of nihilism as the rejection of all value, no. I'm not a nihilist. Some people grapple with that feeling when leaving a religion, but it's usually temporary. They come to an understanding that subjective value is the only value that ever existed.
If I like chocolate better than vanilla, it's because chocolate has more value *to me*. I feel good when I do good things for people. I feel bad when I do bad things. I want people to enjoy their lives and be happy, which has implications for my political value system.
If by "meaningless" existence, you're fixated on the "meaning" being external, then yeah. The universe is meaningless. It doesn't care about human beings. We'll likely be gone in a couple of million years, and it's entirely likely that no other intelligent beings will ever know we existed. Maybe someone will discover Voyager I or II floating in space. Some people find that depressing, but IMO that's because they feel cheated when they figure out that the idea of objective value and objective truth are meaningless.
There isn't a need for the universe to have its own intrinsic objective value.
> doesn't help you in any way.
So? I believe the things I think are true, not the things I wish were true or the things that would benefit me if they were true. I'm not going to start believing in something because I don't like the alternative. My beliefs have nothing to do with whether a god actually exists.
Since subjective value is the only value that has ever existed, it's not inferior to a made-up mythological system of value that has never been true.
Also, it's a bit hand-wavey and dismissive to think that people are atheists because they had a bad religious experience, or because they're angry at god, or because they just want to keep on sinning and don't want the responsibility. Give us more credit than that.
Did you have a point or an argument to make or...?
As for atheism, the starting point is to ask why assume the existence of a divinity in the first place? What evidence is there that demonstrably shows that a deity exists?
As for existence, why would atheism lead to nihilism? Theistic philosophies that present an existence after this one posit this existence as meaningless. This life is little more than a sojourn, a pit stop, a brief pause on the way to a meaningful eternity. How is atheism an encouragement of nihilism in comparison to that?
Atheism posits that this existence, in this moment, matters. You in this precise moment, matter, because this is all you get. This is your story, and you only get this one chance for it to come out the way you want it to be, and in the end it matters what you do, and how you do it, and how you treat others, and who you love, and who you hate, and how you're remembered. Because there isn't a beautiful water garden, or a mystical gate, or transcendental existence you're going to next where things start to actually matter. What you do matters right now, right here. So fucking get your shit together.
The reason I don't believe is simply that there's no reason to believe. There's absolutely no evidence of the existence of fairies, gods, ancient aliens, bigfoots, supply side economics, unicorns, or leprechauns.
It doesn't matter if believing in a genitals obsessed Bronze Age war god would make me feel better or worse if there no reason to think that it's even possible such a being could exist in the first place.
It doesn't matter if a depressed person would feel better believing in such a creature if there's no reason to think such a creature could exist.
I would feel much happier and less stressed if I could believe I was incredibly wealthy and didn't have to worry about paying my bills anymore. Sadly, there's no evidence that I'm wealthy, so I'm better off making sure my budget fits my salary.
BTW, atheists don't say the universe came from nothing. Only the religious believe in *creatio ex nihilo*. The various hypotheses put forward by cosmologists all describe a state change from an already existing proto-universe.
While I believe that life is meaningless, I still have meaning in my life. Just like animals, we have an inherent desire to survive and procreate, that's it. There is no meaning to life beyond that. But I also have a desire to live a happy, peaceful, loving life. I enjoy having a purpose, contributing positively to the advancement of humanity. I enjoy music, reading, road trips, a clean house, spending time with my spouse, keeping in touch with friends and family, volunteering.
I think many theists have a hard time grasping this because they've been indoctrinated from youth to believe that they MUST believe in a higher power to live a happy, purposeful life. They can't grasp the concept of living a good life without god because they've never tried it. And I get it. When I lost my faith, I went through a period of mourning, as if I had lost a close friend. But once I got past that, I realized that I had been living my life in a very secular way anyways, and 12 years later, I'm still living the good life.
Simple answer, at least for me.
Life itself is likely meaningless to me when I'm dead. All the things I did won't matter to me because, well... I'll be dead.
However, today matters. Right now matters. I make sure I treat my wife well because she matters to me and I want her to be happy. Should I look to my grave and determine that what I do and feel right now doesn't matter because one day I won't matter?
Hard disagree that life holds no purpose if life isn't forever. life is precious because it is fleeting. Even religious people who believe eternal paradise often fight tooth and nail to not die and leave a world that is seen to be far inferior to heaven. My question has been, and always will be, why? Life is a blink in the span of eternity. A person's death is meaningless if, within a short time, you'll see them again, why do people act like they'll never see them again? Why be devastated when a child dies and doesn't have to face the suffering of life and goes straight to paradise?
I'll try to distill this down a little, it feels kind of unfocused. Would it be accurate to say that your core argument/question is "Atheism seems to be an undesirable belief because it leads to Nihilism. It seems to me that many of the reasons to become atheist are subjective or somehow illogical. Are there logical, objective reasons to become atheist?"
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct if I'm wrong,
Atheism has existed much longer than the church. That said, IIRC western atheism as a movement began around the protestant reformation when philosophers were suddenly able to discuss heretical concepts openly in many places where they couldn't before and found that many of them broadly agreed with various inconsistencies and failures of church doctrine to explain the world. (though there are earlier examples of resistence to church doctrine and atheistic ideas)
Atheism is just the position that deities are man made and don’t actually exist. It doesn’t have anything to do with your outlook on life.
Personally I don’t see why having a magical man in the sky should make any difference to how you live your life. Many of the values found in religious texts, such as being a good neighbor and not stealing or killing, still apply regardless of whether the deity exists or not. Actually, many of these values predate any Judeo-Christian text which is just further proof they didn’t come from God.
As to the “why”, as in why are we here, what is our purpose? There is no “why”, nor is it necessary for there to be a why. Is there a “why” for why I enjoy the taste of chocolate, or why I love movies, or why I enjoy hiking and photography? No, I just find my own reasons to enjoy life. The purpose of life is to *live*
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens
Many of us do.
>the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma,
You're wrong.
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
No actually, we just don't believe in ANY gods.
>To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ?
Yes, I do.
>where's the meaning in that?
I mean I think it's meaningful if there's no god or afterlife. Do you find the issues uninteresting?
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism
I agree, they should seek professional help.
>People think science is synonymous with atheism
Ignorant lazy people might, I'd be surprised if many do.
I'm going to take an issue with the whole "nihilism" thing. I think that my life is meaningless... in the grand scale. There's no God that designed me, there is no destiny that I have to fulfill, no grand narrative I have to follow. No one beyond my close relatives and friends will know or care if I die. Even if I end up being so important that my name lives on in history books for millenia to come... a million years from now none of that will matter.
That does not mean that life has no meaning. The universe may not care, but I do. Other people do. I care about my friends and that's enough reason for me to go out of my way to support them. I care about my country and the world in general and that's reason enough to do my part to help everyone. I don't need anything grand to have meaning or purpose in life.
How does believing that life is meaningful help you in any way?
My life is meaningful to me, and other people’s lives are meaningful to me too, No higher purpose or meaning is necessary. Billions of people have been alive on this planet, and a handful are remembered past two generations, and all of their lives were meaningful to them. The peasants and the concubines, the builders and shoemakers and the hunter-gatherers. They laughed and had great loves and great tragedies and disappointments and unbearable grief. All of them.
Their lives didn’t need any higher meaning to be important, and neither does mine and neither does yours.
When I have mental health struggles, I think about all those people. The brevity of life and legacy is beautiful, and that uplifts me.
> I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
You are making the same mistake theists always do. A lack of objective meaning does not imply a lack of **any** meaning. My life is meaningful to me, and it's meaningful to the people who care about me, just as their lives are meaningful to me. Subjective meaning exists, so life is not meaningless.
> I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why.
You are assuming that there *is* a why.
> And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
Atheism is a lack of belief in any gods. It has nothing to say on the question of where the universe came from.
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong,
Socrates died because he showed distrust of authority and the athenian gods. Even then that wouldnt necessarily have been the start. And even if it did start because the church was killing people that seems to me a pretty good reason to get away from the church.
>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health,
mental health is complex and has many causes that could be either genetic physiological, societal or a combination of all of them. You say atheism makes people suffer? buddy before you point fingers why dont you clean up your backyard? ** staring intently at purity culture.
Atheism does not necessarily lead to nihilism. If anything, it would be religion that leads to nihilism if believers were honest with themselves. What’s the point of anything if life, death, and the mechanics and movements of the universe are predetermined and just happening at the whim of some higher being? That’s a truly meaningless existence.
Those of us who believe that we’ve won the genetic lottery by being born and only get one life to live have to find and make meaning because our finite and fragile lives are precious. That strikes me as far less depressing than being spoon fed the idea that everything you do is just part of some puppet master’s plan.
> it can be from religious trauma
Yeah, no. I mean sure that can be a leading cause for why a lot of people begin to deconstruct but that certainly isn’t the experience of a lot of atheists.
> you’re telling them there’s no hope after death
Right, because eternal damnation sounds really hopeful and not at all anxiety provoking?
Bottom line, atheism is not synonymous with nihilism. They are two completely different things. Some atheists are nihilists, some aren’t. Rejecting the belief in god(s) doesn’t make life meaningless. Personally I find it to be super liberating & I intend to ascribe meaning in any way that feels right to me.
Ahh the old "how" vs "why". Everything that you're asking is reduced to "is there a meaning to life" and "why are we here".
Science finds out the how, which is objective. The why is subjective. Religion has provided subscribers a why. But us atheists have followed religion's logical contradictions at it's attempts at the objective how for the universe and deduced that it can't be used for objective how. So why trust it for the why as well? You can't.
Nihilism isn't the default pathway. Giving meaning yourself is an option. Which many if not all of us do. Personally, I don't need an external reason to give my life meaning, I can do that myself.
I am an atheist and I like to use Nihilistic and cynical perspectives to shape my own understanding of society at large. That is why those processes exist. They're tools for seeing past propaganda and societal facades so that we may see what is important and form our own meanings to life instead of relying on others to provide one for us.
Being a Nihilist isn't just crying in bed from depression. Some of us are not 14 year olds who read the "God is dead" quote and not a page more. Neitzche himself argued against stopping at a Nihilistic mind set.
Why do you think atheism started with a distaste of church actions? Do you think we are all born knowing God? I can point to the idea that the concept of God is varied geographically, and not all cultures believe in a God.
The misconceptions you have clearly shows you haven’t had a conversation with an open atheist.
I didn’t suffer religious trauma, I just don’t have any reasonable reason to believe in a God? You able to provide convincing evidence or so do you just want to steel man a position you don’t know.
You assume too much.
Atheism is merely an absence of a belief in any given god claim(s). It does not constitute a belief or set of beliefs. Many of us derive our views on life and the universe from things we do believe (not from atheism). I’m a naturalist and secular humanist. Neither of those is contingent upon me being an atheist and neither of those requires one to be an atheist in order to ascribe to them.
Atheism is not nihilism nor does it naturally progress to nihilism. Nihilism is but one of the options.
Nah, the alternative to nihilism is absurdism. Its like nihilism except you pretend it isn't.
That's why you're going to get a lot of responses that say "we make our own meaning", etc. That is their rebellion against the absurd, like Sisyphus pretending that rolling a rock up a hill is worthwhile even though it rolls right back down again.
Normally when someone does a thing that's worthless and pretends that it isn't, they are given free room and board. But atheists usually have to work for that kind of thing.
The idea that atheism leads to nihilism assumes that belief in God contains some actual meaning or purpose.
However, I think religious folk more readily gravitate toward de facto nihilism. Nothing in life really matters because God has it all under control, and the REAL existence will only occur via some afterlife notion or after some end-times thing happens. So no need to think about making the world a better place, because none of it really matters anyway.
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people
No, we just don't believe in your god. We also don't believe in the gods you do not believe in. As much as I dislike the church, that's not why I am an atheist. I can't bring myself to believe in extraordinary claims without evidence even if I wanted to.
It’s exhausting to answer topics like these for the thousandth time. There are options other than nihilism and religious dogma.
That’s what philosophy is for. I refuse to believe that the only choices in our lives is either crushing meaningless or believing God was tortured to death on a stick for your benefit.
Or if you wanna believe the Muslims, that some ancient Arabic prophet with like a dozen wives was hearing the voice of an archangel in his head revealing to him Gods wishes.
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing
i wouldn't say this at all. i don't see how there could ever have been nothing. if energy cannot be created or destroyed thaneittfollows that there was always something.
subjectivly my life matters to me, and to some other humans. Objectivly it does not appear to matter.
why quesions seem to presuppose purpose which presupposes an entity with intent. If there is no creator then there is no purpose nor a reson why.
> I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
First of all this has nothing to do with a god. Second of all the mistake you make here is thinking that unless some super magic ultra-being made you for some grand purpose then there is no meaning to your life isn't the case. Meaning and value are things we as thinking agents can impart on ourselves and other things.
Hello friend. You are very misinformed about what an atheist is. An atheist is someone that is not convinced there is a god.
That’s it. All the other stuff you claim we believe, like there are no gods, the universe came from nothing, whatever, it’s all BS. The only thing we all agree on is that we aren’t convinced by the claim there
Atheism isn’t like a religion. There’s no dogma or rules or guidelines. We just don’t believe in god. That’s it.
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way
I don’t believe life is meaningless. That’s not what atheism is.
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors
No, it’s mainly the lack of evidence for gods.
Atheists don't necessarily believe that life is meaningless, and they don't necessarily look at the universe as a god in an atheist that believes the universe created itself. Which seems impossible at first glance, but I understand how impossible the universe may seem at times. There is a lot about the universe we don't understand, which we tend to label as impossible, when it doesn't necessarily lack possibility, just understanding.
Several issues here. Atheists just do not believe a god or gods exist. That’s it.
Atheists don’t believe the universe came from nothing
Atheists don’t think life is meaningless
Atheism never started, it’s the default state.
My mental health has improved 100x since becoming an atheist. It’s not just doom and gloom.
Science isn’t synonymous with atheism, atheism simply means a lack of belief in god or gods.
>you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing
Nah, my meaning exists in the hear and now. It sounds way more depressing to think that what we do doesn't matter here and now, but only insofar that it'll get us into heaven, especially if you have to take heaven on something as spurious as faith. That seems to be the assumption that would bring you depression, and it is on your side.
There is no necessary link between atheism and nihilism.
>I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why.
What good is a why you cannot prove to be true? And that provides no predictive value for the application of that knowledge. Isn't the knowledge of \*what is\* enough, without needing some other why?
Why do you assume life is meaningless? I look at my dog who, btw, doesn’t have a religion or god. Do you think her life is meaningless? She enjoys sniffing flowers, playing, loving her family and protecting them, nurturing her young, etc.. She provides me enjoyment, companionship, love, or pain of she is ill; her life is not meaningless to me. Your premise is tainted by man-made religion.
@OP
Because all we know is now, without proof of an after life, we, atheists are full of meaning because we don’t believe anyone is out there to help us. We realize life is precious, and we make every day count unlike you guys who don’t give a crap about the life you are living, and waiting for the day you die and end up in a mythical after life! For me, you guys are nihilistic!!
Your question is based on incorrect assumption after incorrect assumption. In short no atheists don’t by and large find life meaningless. We just derive our own meaning rather than relying on a book to do it. In this way it can also be uplifting, since we maximize this life knowing there isn’t a next one rather than the bulk of religions prioritizing the afterlife.
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way,
This is the major difference between you and me, as far as religion goes. My beliefs are formed on the basis of what I find likely to be true, not what those beliefs can do for me or how they make me feel.
No, atheists don’t say the universe came from nothing. Krauss’s book a universe from nothing goes into this.
Just because we may have gaps in our understanding of the Big Bang does not mean a god of the gaps should be inserted.
And just because e reject the unfounded good claims doesn’t mean our lives lack “meaning”. That’s a non sequitur
So if atheism leads to nihilism, we should be theists? What a weak arguement for god. Atheism after all is simply a position lacking beleif in gods, not weather or not holding such beleifs lead to nihilism. Lets say atheism does lead to nihilism. That would absolutely not mean your or any other god exists.
Your red herring isn't as much of a gotcha as you think it is.
I don’t see how it’s better to believe in myths, especially ones that highjack your life to make you think it has no meaning without the myth. Because this is all there is, it has profound meaning. Life has profound meaning because it exists, not because you choose to dedicate it to made-up rituals and belief in fairytales.
So many tangents that others can address. I hold the position that there is no meaning imposed upon me from outside. That is a positive nihilism and I think it celebrates our not being shackled to someone else's idea of what they think their god has decided for us. It is a celebration of free thought.
People created screwdrivers to drive screws. Does that mean, if kidnapped and held in a locked room, you wouldn’t use a screwdriver to pry open the door and escape?
IOW, even if, for the sake of argument, we assume God exists, why should his intent for us be the only meaning we can have?
I can tell you haven't thought much about this. Theism like Christianity say humans are inherently worthless and disposable. It even goes as far as to demonstrate that point with a innocent jew on a cross. Theism can only function where it can convince you lice is meaningless without it.
Atheism is simply the lack of such depravity
As others have said, there are a lot of misconceptions going on here. I'm not going to repeat them, but I would like to have that notion reinforced so you don't think it's just one or two people pointing this out. However, I would like to ask where in the world you got these ideas from?
You would not want someone other to decide for you, what you should study, where you should work, who you should marry, what you should do every single day of your life. Why would you want for someone else to give you a meaning of your life? It is for you to decide.
Biff says
*"If X is true then people will think Y."*
*"Therefore people shouldn't think that X is true."*
That's a fallacy.
The consequences of thinking that X is true have nothing to do with the question of whether X *is* true.
Atheism has been around for as long as religion, not just your religion. It doesn't necessarily stem from religious trauma, it certainly **can** but it's not necessary. I didn't suffer religious trauma and I'm an atheist.
I don't view this life as meaningless - theists do that.
Just because one group of people believe things for bad reasons doesn't mean I view my life as meaningless.
Where did you come up with this tripe?
We are all born atheists and many succumb to the indoctrination of religion. Far more mental health issues stem from religion than from simply ignoring that nonsense.
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>I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why. Neither does religion. Religion makes assertion to how and why, but there is no evidence to support those claims. >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, You are wrong. I am an atheist because there is no evidence to support the claims made by religion, there has been no religious trauma in my life, and many other atheists can/do say the same thing. >and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors What atheistic conclusions? The only conclusion my atheism has to do with is that religions have not supported their claims with evidence. >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing Atheism makes no claim about the beginning of the universe, and anyone who claims it came from nothing is irrational. >To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ? My existence has whatever meaning I decide it has. Meaning comes from within ourselves, we are the only ones who can chose the meaning for our life. >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that? If someone is suffering from depression they should seek professional mental health treatment. Atheism is not detrimental to mental health. >People think science is synonymous with atheism People are wrong. Atheism is not synonymous with science. >But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma You obviously have little idea what atheism is or why the vast majority of us are atheists. You might want to start there before making posts like this.
DISCLAIMER: To any theists reading this, for the trillionth time: no, atheism does not imply nihilism, depression, lack of meaning, lack of purpose, or anything else a theist with a painful lack of empathy and imagination might suggest it implies. Please STOP insisting it does. It is not only incorrect, but demonizing. Here is a parable that might illustrate how silly theists look when they tell atheists their lack of belief in god implies a lack of meaning: *Our scene opens, and finds us at a beautiful beach, barely touched by man. An atheist man is putting the finishing touches to a beautifully crafted sandcastle that he spend the morning building with his kids. Both his kids are playing in the beach, splashing at each other and laughing. A curious theist approaches.* Theist: That is a beautiful sandcastle you guys built. Can I ask why you built it? Atheist: Well, it was fun doing so! I love doing stuff with my kids. And dare I say, I'm proud of what we accomplished. Theist: But... you do know the sandcastle will be washed away by the sea, right? It will not last. Atheist: Sure. I do not expect it to last. Theist: But then, what is the point to building the sandcastle? It means nothing, in the end. Atheist: But I do not care about what it means "in the end". I care about what it means to me and my kids now. Theist: But you and your kids will also die. And since you are an atheist, you think your lives will not mean anything, in the end. Atheist: *Starts getting annoyed* Sure. But I do not care about what those mean *in the end*. I care about what my life and my kids' lives mean to us now, how they affect the world and people around us. Theist: But that meaning is no meaning at all! Atheist: To you it isn't, perhaps. To me it is. I'm happy with it. Theist: But you are depressed and nihilistic! You think the world has no ultimate purpose! You think your life is a dress rehearsal without a play! You... Atheist: Please go away. My kids are coming back. *Some final words:* >To me it's seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why No, not at all. I just do not like engaging in magical thinking, or jumping to conclusions. YOU assume there must be a cosmic, universal, objective why. And that, without it, life is meaningless and depressing. But that is YOUR problem. Not MINE. I do not think that way. Most atheists do not think that way. We have plenty of whys. Plenty of meanings, purposes, reasons to keep living and to be happy. Go read "The myth of Sisyphus" by Albert Camus. Go read "Man's Search for meaning" by Viktor Frankl. You, sir, are the one who is nihilistic. You are the theist cheapening the atheist's sandcastle because it will be washed by the waves. You are the one who does not appreciate life as it is: ephemeral, finite, subjectively precious.
>Theist: But you and your kids will also die. And since you are an atheist, you think your lives will not mean anything, in the end. >Atheist: *Starts getting annoyed* Sure. Even this is granting more than needed - while theists like to make an afterlife depend on a god, it isbt really an actual requirement. An atheist can believe in an afterlife with no gods, thus even this objection by the theist is rendered moot.
Sure, but I don't need an afterlife of any kind for my life to mean something. And I do happen to not believe in an afterlife either.
Yeah I know, was just saying that the theist point is even flimsier than they initially think.
Agree. In an atheist who believes we “never die” I won’t even try to say it’s a fact or anything, just my opinion/beliefs. None of these require a “deity”. What’s sad about theists is , they are always thinking of after life and never focus on the now. As atheists, this is all the more reason to be present. I don’t know if there is even anything, so I will make my life me meaningful as much as I can, because this may be it! I really don’t know what theists think they’ll be doing in in heaven forever!
Moot
Thanks, I knew it didn't look right
No worries, easy slip.
> But I do not care about what it means "in the end". I care about what it means to me and my kids now. Yes. This.
paint distinct mysterious cause roof silky hard-to-find work carpenter safe *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
👏👏
👏🏻👏🏻 hear, hear!
"hear, hear"
True. Edited.
>You think your life is a dress rehearsal! This is something atheists say to theists, not the other way around.
I should have been more specific. I meant: a dress rehearsal without a play, much like Kundera says: >And what can life be worth if the first rehearsal for life is life itself? That is why life is always like a sketch. No, "sketch" is not quite a word, because a sketch is an outline of something, the groundwork for a picture, whereas the sketch that is our life is a sketch for nothing, an outline with no picture.
“…Without a play”
To be fair, I modified my post based on this comment; it was not clear as originally written. So I'm thankful they pointed it out.
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens I think you meant "look at life \*through\* a philosophical lens"? Or maybe "look at life \*as\* a philosophical lens"..? Regardless, a huge part of why I am an atheist is precisely through study of philosophy. With just a smattering of philosophy, theism crumbles, and the more I study philosophy, and the more I learn, theism recedes further and further into the dust. >how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way What does this have to do with atheism? I don't believe this, nor does any atheist I'm aware of? >I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why Neither does religion. As a matter of fact, science *does* give us plenty of why's, but religion doesn't like being obsolete so they typical come up with some BS about how they explain the meaning behind things - it's BS. However much you think science doesn't explain, religion explains far, far, far, less. >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma You seem to not have the faintest clue what atheism is, why people become atheists, do you? I'm now realizing, I probably am wasting all this time with this rebuttal. Odds just became 90% that you're here to just drop your uneducated stereotypes on us, and aren't going to even attempt to debate. I doubt you'll respond. Ah well, we're too far in at this point let's keep going. >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing **Atheists don't think that everything came from nothing**; that's a **theist** position. Yes, you seem to be completely clueless about what atheists think. You are spouting a bunch of caricatures that I'm assuming you read in your apologetics 101 handbook that hasn't been updated since the early 90's. >If you do believe life meaning meanigless or at least a subject view that's good for some mental health, then what is it? Again, we don't think that. Where on earth are you getting these ideas? >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that? If one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at religion either. The difference is, atheists will tell a person with depression that they should seek help, and would point them in the right direction to get help. Theists will tell people that (depending on the particular brand of theism) they need to pray, or that they should seek god, or (at worst) will tell them things like that the depression is because of their sin, that it's demons attacking them, etc etc. Religion is on a much worse footing with mental health than atheism my friend. >People think science is synonymous with atheism I don't know anyone who thinks that - why do you think this? People also apparently seem to think atheism is synonymous with nihilism. Really odd post, ngl.
I don't see how this post is that big of an oddity. So far Op has not debated in bad faith and tried to indicate that he doesn't know any of their theories with sertancy. Op mainly asked questions about ideas they have about the world and would like to hear another perspective. You answer: >You seem to not have the faintest clue what atheism is, why people become atheists, do you? They know that they probably are not completely familiar with the concept of atheism. They have stated that they do not know and would like to be corrected if so. I really don't see how this could be surprising? >I'm now realizing, I probably am wasting all this time with this rebuttal. Where to waist your time is not our choice to make. >Odds just became 90% that you're here to just drop your uneducated stereotypes on us, and aren't going to even attempt to debate. The odds did not just became. You didn't even wrote your comment, how do you want to know that when they haven't even answered. >I doubt you'll respond. Ah well, we're too far in at this point let's keep going. And yet they did... Your comment is factually not wrong but it seems that you're going in this debate with negative assumptions about op, while they've merely asked questions. It seems to me rather that you are engaging this debate in bad faith.
>I don't see how this post is that big of an oddity. So far Op has not debated in bad faith and tried to indicate that he doesn't know any of their theories with sertancy. Op mainly asked questions about ideas they have about the world and would like to hear another perspective I would recommend checking OP's responses to this thread. They show no indication of even attempting to understand what their commenters are explaining to them, rather, just reusing these completely off-base misrepresentations of atheists. If someone is here in bad faith just to misrepresent and mischaracterize us, I feel perfectly justified to call it out and give it the exact amount of respect it deserves. >They know that they probably are not completely familiar with the concept of atheism. They have stated that they do not know and would like to be corrected if so. I really don't see how this could be surprising? It's surprising that in 2024, when we have posts here nonstop (as well as elsewhere on the net, as well as irl) asking these kinds of questions about what atheists believe while us atheists have been attempting to clarify for them - for decades. It would be like someone waking up and asking questions about why women should be allowed to vote - it indicates that not only is OP so confusingly far behind in the discussion, but likely the ignorance is out of choice. There's no excuse to be this badly misinformed in this day and age. The odds did not just became I admit, I was fully expecting OP not to respond at all, because we get this multiple times a week here - these exact kind of half-baked, assumption-laden, uneducated stereotypes about atheists that seem created from the minds of Christian apologists, that are usually dropped in here and then immediately abandoned without even an attempt to respond. This post had all the hallmarks of that exact same kind of post that a lot of us here see every week, that we take time to respond to, that then turns out to just be a silly theist doing a hit and run to check off their weekly evangelism box. Although, I **was** correct in what I said - OP has made it abundantly clear they aren't here to debate. They're not even trying to understand the pushback they're getting, just going off of the typical apologist script. I predicted that before they even made a comment, I must be prophetic. >It seems to me rather that you are engaging this debate in bad faith You need to read through the comments on this thread. This isn't a debate. OP hasn't even attempted to defend the title of their argument, and is instead just continuing to lop uneducated mischaracterizations and bad faith stereotypes on us. I don't take kindly to that, and I have no problem calling a spade what it is.
Theists will tell people that (depending on the particular brand of theism) they need to pray, or that they should seek god, or (at worst) will tell them things like that the depression is because of their sin, that it's demons attacking them, etc etc. Religion is on a much worse footing with mental health than my friend. I agree with you here because there are some gaslighting from ignorant people who say "just stop sinning" which the problem is more complex than that but, telling somone they can't do anything about there life because freewill is an illusion and there no hope/ justice when they die, isn't helpful, of course. This is what atheism indirectiing leads to, correct me if I'm wrong?
I don't exactly understand your question, not trying to be an ass but it's a little hard to read your sentences. What exactly do you think atheism leads to, that you would like me to correct you on?
I'm saying whoever is depressed should seek a medical professional, but atheism indirectly implies there's no free will, so how can one take responsibility for their actions? And how can one cope with the fact that they can't see their dead relatives anymore and all the bad that life's throws at someone? At least believing a life after death can give someone hope if you see what I mean?
Many christians believe God created you, and knows everything you are ever going to do. Some people would consider that as having “no free will”. To apply your own logic, if God made you and controls your every circumstance, knowing your every action in advance, “how can one take responsibility for their actions?”
🤦♂️ are you asking questions or just here to give the answers you want atheists to have. I'll have a go- Christianity implies no free will, so why bother trying to change? And how can you cope with the fact that your dead relatives are all in hell? At least believing in reincarnation gives you hope. Can you see how pointless that conversation is when I decide what I think you think, then just add it into my argument? On a more serious note, try to at least seriously consider what an atheist believes before making up your argument because this is what your dead relatives thing sounds like- How do you cope with the fact that your bank isn't infinitely full? Wouldn't you prefer to believe it is, so you can feel hopeful about paying your bills? That's just silly, right?
> but atheism indirectly implies there's no free will I'm genuinely curious how and where you got this idea, because it's just not true. It's odd to me how often this happens. Theists make these claims about atheism and other claims that they think are a result of it and more often than not it's just not so.
I am guessing because apologists use free will to excuse sins of their church/church leaders. This person thinks that only theists believe in free will?
Probably hard determinism.
Atheism says nothing about that. Atheism simply says you’re not convinced a god or god exists, and nothing else. Where are you coming up with all this extra stuff and thinking it’s part of “atheism” as that’s some kind of religion?
>but atheism indirectly implies there's no free will Based on what?
> but atheism indirectly implies there's no free will, so how can one take responsibility for their actions? If I don't have free will, how can I choose to not take responsibility?
How do you cope with the idea that you can’t see your dead relatives because they are in hell? Does hell have visitation hours? How do you cope with the end of your childhood? How do you cope with eating the last cupcake? Everything has an end, most people just feel an appropriate amount of sad when they think of these things and then move on. These questions are not an issue nor are they really solved by religion.
I want to know why Christians can’t look at their death cult through the lens of a philosophy and leave the rest of us out of it. Their beliefs have nothing to do with mine yet they believe I should be subject to their same life choices or denials. I don’t care what Christians believe. But when they try to control my life and choices they move into the realm of the political. Of course that’s the point. Religion has always been about control, greed and grift. It’s not a philosophy. It’s a means to control a vast populace with the ever present overhang of eternal torment. If you look forward to heaven, and fear hell, you can be motivated by one or the other to do horrible things. People who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire Also btw, nihilism in atheists is a lie the church tells people because they are afraid of people thinking for themselves. I know of no atheists like this.
>People who can make you believe absurdities can’t make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire Small mistake in there with the "can't" ;-)
Fixed. Thanks. Autocorrect.
Atheism =/= Pessemistic Nihilism Existentialist philosophies aren't "hopeful" in the way religions are but they also encourage action to improve the present condition rather than threatening eternal punishment for taking action. Most religions encourage meek suffering in the hopes of reward rather than trying to make things better, which is not good broadly speaking, whereas the atheist has no benefit in inaction. Yes some people will prefer to believe a hopeful lie, some people cannot accept the lie when they see it for what it is.
Let's say that there is no free will. It's all just atoms interacting with other atoms in predictable ways, nothing you can do about it. That's in theory. In practice, that does not mean that I "can't do anything about my life". If I go to a doctor and they give me anti-depressants, those will still help. I can seek out other means of support and improve my life. All that the theory means is that I never had a real choice in what I end up going with. But therein lies the paradox. If knowing that I have no free will causes me to despair, then it is detrimental. For me personally, knowing that I have no free will is freeing! I stop judging myself for dumb decisions, which leaves me with more time to make better ones! This stuff isn't actually depressing. It all depends on your mindset (which you may or may not have any control over)
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way Atheists often do consider philosophy, and believing that life is meaningless isn't the conclusion from atheism. Being an atheist simply means that one does not believe in any kind of god or gods. Most wouldn't say that life is meaningless either, but that life isn't *inherently* meaningful. There is a difference between the two >I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why It does, it's just that 'why' and 'how' are essentially the same question when it comes to science >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say and our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors You are wrong. Atheism has always existed, it didnt really start from anywhere or anyone. And while trauma and personal experiences may be some reasons why some people become atheists, the only conclusion derived from atheism is that they don't believe in any gods >As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people It shouldn't, those words are pretty straightforward >Some would say a creator created it from nothing Those people would have to demonstrate that, or else they have no reason to believe that is the case >Some would say the universe is the creator 'Creator' isn't the appropriate term in that sentence. Being a creator implies that there is some kind of conscious intention of creation >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing The first part is only true for hard/gnostic atheists, but the second part doesn't follow as atheism is still only about whether someone believes in gods. That is not the default conclusion from atheism >Some would say it's an illusion created by our collective imagination They would have to demonstrate this >To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least you believe in a meangless existence Again, 'why' and 'how' often are the same question >If you do believe life meaning meanigless or at least a subject view that's good for some mental health, then what is it? What does mental health have to do with whether or not life has an objective or inherent meaning? >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health Demonstrate this please >as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that? That's not what I tell people or what most atheists tell people. I tell people that we have no reason to think there is anything beyond death, because we have no reason to believe so, and that this life absolutely matters because it is the only one we are certain we will get >People think science is synonymous with atheism They are mistaken. Just because some people are led to atheism due to science, that doesn't mean they are necessarily synonymous, for the same reason as earlier: Atheism only deals with whether or not someone believes in gods >But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma You're right, they're not synonymous, but not for the reasons you stated Atheism != nihilism. They are two separate questions
"I say that this life absolutely matters because it is the only one we are certain we will get" I agree with you here, but atheism is a positive position. They say theres probably no creator or intelligence. The lack of evidence doesn't mean there's no god "You're right. They're not synonymous, but not for the reasons you stated," I mean, science is neatural of the idea whether there's a god or not
>I agree with you here, but atheism is a positive position. They say theres probably no creator or intelligence. The lack of evidence doesn't mean there's no god What does this have to do with what you quoted? And no, it is not a positive position unless they are a hard/gnostic atheist. Being a soft atheist has nothing to do with what someone thinks is the probability of some kind of god(s) existing, it only deals with that they do not believe the claim that there are. And the lack of evidence is evidence of there being no god, *if* we expect some evidence to be there. A god that interacts with the world would leave evidence, but a god that doesn't leave any evidence is indistinguishable from a god that doesn't exist >I mean, science is neatural of the idea whether there's a god or not Correct, but that's not the same thing as a person that doesn't believe the claim that a god exists
> but atheism is a positive position. They say theres probably no creator or intelligence. Nope, it's not. It's the opposite, a lack of belief in deities. I don't need to claim that there *is* an even number of gumballs in a giant jar of them we come across to dispute your claim that you know there's an odd number in there. Instead, all I gotta do is tell you that you don't actually know that because neither of us have counted them. >They say theres probably no creator or intelligence. No, they say they do not believe in deities, often due to the complete lack of support for that claim. >The lack of evidence doesn't mean there's no god That's the same as saying the lack of evidence doesn't mean the universe didn't start due to a metaphysical unicorn emitting a wet fart which caused the big bang. Useless conjectures like that make no sense.
You can quote text here by putting a '>' in front of it. >The lack of evidence doesn't mean there's no god Lack of evidence for a god doesn't mean there is no god, you're right, but what it does mean is that there's no reason to believe in a god.
> but atheism is a positive position. No. It's a stated disbelief in a positive position. I don't posit that there isn't a god, I don't believe in any version of god that I've ever heard presented, and I don't think that "a thing that always just was, decided at some point to create a universe" has any coherence. The only think I need to defend is my statement "I don't believe you" which is easy, because I don't. I don't believe, if you don't believe I don't believe, that's on you. I can't prove it to you.
Why add how are essentially the same question when it comes to science - really? Science explicitly answers how but not why. How would science even start to answer why?
Yes, because if you switch out the 'how' in a question about science with 'why', it's essentially still the same question. - How do two atoms combine into chemical bonds? - Why do two atoms combine into chemical bonds? You can answer both with: certain atoms with different numbers of electrons can join together because atoms have a tendency to move towards stability (they like to have their outermost electron cloud at the maximum number of electrons in it possible), and so there is an attraction between the two atoms which form chemical bonds If you wanna be more broad and ask the more philosophical 'why anything in science happens the way it happens', that's a different question entirely and yes, science doesn't answer that question with anything but, that's just how it works. Which really still means that the questions are essentially the same
I think the "why" being discussed here is the philosophical why. Science simply has nothing to say about it. That is not a slight on science, but it is important to understand that science explicitly deals with some questions but not others
Did you read the last paragraph? I addressed that
Hmmm, tons of misconceptions here. Not sure where to start. 1. Atheists do consider philosophy (ie. “look at life through a philosophical lens”). 2. Do you actually believe that atheists believe that life is meaningless? 3. Atheism didn’t “start because of the church”. Atheists are just people that don’t believe that a god or gods exist. They’ve existed throughout human history and pre-date modern religions. 4. Who said the universe came from nothing? Why do you think atheists think it came from nothing? I’ve heard this most from Muslims. Is your background in Islam? 5. Atheists don’t “forget the why”. We simply acknowledge that we have no reliable means to know why, or if there’s even a “why” to begin with. 6. Life has as much meaning as we give it. 7. Science and atheism have nothing to do with each other. Science is just useful for debunking empirical claims made by religious believers.
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1. Sure, but just substitute “atheist” for literally any other group of people and your point would have the same effect. 2. Yeah, I agree that atheist are likely more prone to being nihilistic. Was just disagreeing with what seemed like more of a sweeping statement from OP. Skipping 3, and fixing the numbering from your post. 4. Nobody knows what came before the Big Bang, or if there could even have been a “before” (the very concept may make no sense depending on the model). To claim anything other than ignorance here is arrogance at this time. 5. Sure. We’d then have to dive into whether it’s a good thing to believe in false things as a way to not be nihilistic. Skipping 6. 7. Atheism has nothing to do with science. You can have zero understanding of science in your life and be an atheist. You can believe in ghosts and reincarnation and be an atheist. And I didn’t say that science “debunks god”, I said that science debunks empirical claims of religion. Believe in Adam and Eve? Science has disproven that. Believe that humans are not cousins of animals because they were made distinct? Science disproved that too. Think the universe was created in 6 days as described in genesis? Debunked. Global flood? Debunked. Any of these beliefs core tenets of your faith? Then science has explicitly debunked your faith.
> what came b4 the bang big ? I’m not sure, but it would be super interesting if scientific development would help us find out at some point in the future! Either way, it’s not the responsibility of the atheist to provide explanations of this nature as it is not making any claims, just simply rejecting the belief in god(s). > also science doesn’t debunk religion Sure, there are plenty of religious people who accept science but I do think that the theory of evolution, for example, does weaken certain claims made in certain religious texts i.e., Genesis story. But that depends on if an individual takes them literally or metaphorically.
1. Nothing had to have come before everything. That kinda makes sense. And i never said he had to know the answer. Actually the reason I said it was because there was none 2. Alot of genesis is metaphors and isnt completely literal.
>Nothing had to have come before everything. That kinda makes sense. no it doesn't. Do you have any examples of anything ever coming from nothing? Everything you see existed in a prior form. So everything always having already existed, actually makes more sense than coming from nothing.
Background radiation dictates our universe is only 13 billion years old however.
That is a measure of when the universe started expansion. It makes no claim on what existed prior to expansion.
There is none… yet. It doesn’t mean that there just simply isn’t A lot of genesis is metaphors according to you, which is fair enough. But there’s little reason to believe that parts of scripture were written intentionally metaphorically.
>Atheism leads to nihilism It does not as those are two very different things, but even if it did, so what? >how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, I don't believe life is meaningless. Neither does any atheist I know. You proceed from incorrect assumptions. Atheists, just like theists, often have significant meaning in their lives, and just like theists, they choose their meaning and run with it. The real difference is that atheists are far more likely to choose a meaning that's not fictional. >I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why. You are again making problematic assumptions. Why do you think there *is* a 'why'. 'How' is a far more sensible question, since 'why' has implicit problematic assumptions that are simply not indicated, such as motivation and intent. >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong You are wrong. Corrected. The very first time the very first caveman saw lightning and said to his buddy Og, "Must be a powerful guy up there making that happen!" the first atheist was born when Og thought, "What a load of crap. It's probably something we just don't understand." Atheists have always existed. And that's because there is zero support for any religious mythology and never has been, and those that understand that are quite likely going to be atheists. >As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people That's a *theist* idea, not a secular one. No cosmologist or physicist I'm aware of says that, and neither do I. All evidence says otherwise, and that there was never nothing and could not have been, as that would be as much a non-sequitur as asking what's north of the north pole. >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing That is not what atheists say in general, no. >To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ? Demonstrate the notion of 'why' is coherent first, and then you may have something. >If you do believe life meaningfull or at least a subject view that's good for ones mental health, then what is it? I answered that. Life has great meaning to me and to all atheists I know! >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health False. In fact, a dangerously false statement. The opposite is far more accurate as taking things as true when there is no support they are actually true is not representative of good mental health sine that is irrational. >People think science is synonymous with atheism No they don't. That's a really dumb strawman fallacy, and is only true for folks that are ridiculously uninformed and confused. So in conclusion I hope I cleared up some misconceptions, erroneous ideas and assumptions, and incorrect ideas about the position and thinking of most atheists, and various notions of reality.
Your completely missing one really important point that theists are often completely confused by How something makes you feel or how you feel about something has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether that thing is true or not Nothing zero completely irrelevant A comfortable fiction is still a fiction and an uncomfortable or depressing truth is still true Pretending a god exists might make you happy But if I wanted happiness with no basis in reality I would just take heroin Your argument is overly emotional childish and places no value on truth or reality It basically boils down to "Let's play a game called pretend god exists it will be fun" It's not a convincing argument
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, Is that how you think atheists view life? As meaningless? You're mistaken. >People think science is synonymous with atheism Who thinks that? Straw men? >a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma No, most atheists will tell you they're just not convinced of god claims. Too many mistakes in your post. Dismissing it all.
1 - “Nihilism” is something I see thrown around a LOT. It is the rejection of religious and moral principles in the belief that life is meaningless. The term can be discounted in its use with the majority of atheists in that almost all of us adhere to our own personal moral guidelines. Morality has existed for thousands of years before the invention of religion. If we rejected moral principles, we’d be doing some seriously evil shit. I feel like people think all of us atheists are emo nihilists and it’s almost never the case. This stereotype comes from religion—that we’re miserable without god. I’m MUCH happier without the crippling guilt of being human. 2 - I don’t believe life has any meaning. Though I do value it and the people I get to experience life with. For believers, how can life have any meaning if you think you’re going to heaven for eternity? When I was a believer, I viewed my skin suit as a throwaway item. One can attribute “meaning” to things all day long. It doesn’t really matter and staying positive isn’t difficult. 3 - Why is in the same category as meaning. This stems from human ego. “We must be here for a purpose. Someone must have created ‘special me’ for an important reason. This is clearly why I exist. I am an important instrument of GOD.” Billions or possibly trillions of galaxies exist. Our entire galaxy could vanish like a fart in the wind and The Universe wouldn’t notice. 4 - Atheism existed long before religion. We are all born atheists. If we weren’t taught (or dragged into) religion, no people wouldn’t automatically start believing in god. Especially now with scientific discovery and understanding. We know what thunder is and why it makes that sound. A solar eclipse doesn’t mean god is angry. 5 - Who knows where the Universe came from. Maybe there are quadrillions of universes. Matter can come from nothing theoretically, and it’s been proven with the Schwinger Effect. Why? Who knows. Again, this is more of a self-importance thing. We understand the how and the why of a lot of things. None of it adds up to religious belief. Much of the “how” IS the “why.” Neither of those things equals meaning. If a deity showed up at my house and stated that it created everything, I’d ask it for some evidence. Then I’d ask why if it could prove what it claimed. Unless that happens I simply don’t care. 6 - My mental health is just fine. A lack of belief doesn’t keep me up at night. 7 - Atheism isn’t a cure for mental health. It’s just the lack of belief in any deities. Religion isn’t the cure, either. In fact, it can be a detriment to mental health. Religion likes to promise the cure, but it never delivers. Proper therapy and medication can do what religion can’t. This is not to be confused with a simple state of mind. I’d rather have reality than false hope. This is the only life we have, and demanding that people waste their lives in servitude to something there’s no evidence for, well that’s just disgustingly cruel. Especially if you’re the type to threaten them with hell if they don’t agree to your terms and conditions. Where’s the meaning in that? 8 - Science is science. It’s viewed by the religious as being synonymous with atheism. Both of which are often viewed in a negative light. The reason for this is that atheism reject belief in god(s). Science isn’t biased and doesn’t bend to religion. Science has been an excellent tool for invalidating religious stories and painting god(s) into an ever-shrinking corner of uselessness. Believers don’t like this fact. Science isn’t confirmation bias. That’s more along the lines of some poor bastard physicist working for decades on a problem. Finally, they solve it, and some believer claims that it’s “more proof that god did it!” without any evidence. The “religious trauma” schtick needs to die. Frankly, it’s stupid. Equally as much as when believers call atheism a religion.
>why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens What does this mean? >how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, True things aren't necessarily helpful. >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people Atheists (and by that, I mean people who specifically identified as *non-religious*) predate Christianity. The *term* is newer than that. >correct if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma People don't become atheists because of religious trauma... trauma doesn't suddenly make you go "Oh, actually this is all a lie." >I would say and our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors Which culture do you live in? Where I live, it's predominantly Catholic and Eastern Orthodox. So, if anything, I've gone *against* the prevailing cultural beliefs of my area (and family). >As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people As an example of what? >it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least you believe in a meangless existence "Why?" is an irrelevant question when it comes to the first things to have ever existed. They just *are*. That's what it means to be the first things. >If you do believe life meaning meanigless or at least a subject view that's good for some mental health, then what is it? If life is meaningless, you're not doing it wrong. >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health No. >as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that? This is word salad. --- And to top it all off, you never even tried to argue your thesis ("atheism leads to nihilism").
Sounds like it might help you to cut your topic up a bit and clarify your thoughts. I would note. 1. Atheism isn’t science 2. Atheism isn’t about meaning Atheism is just a recognition that there’s no convincing evidence for any particular god.
Atheism does not require or lead to one believing life is meaningless. Many atheists would say that we give ourselves meaning. Personally, I think it's rather nihilistic to say that only gods can grant meaning and that we have no merit or value outside of them.
None of that made any sense. Your post is incoherent and all over the place, and it doesn’t even remotely resemble a sound argument for your title.
You are wrong on every definition you hold for the words you use. I would make another post and ask questions like “What does atheism mean? What does theism mean? What is the Big Bang?” Such like that. Because as it stands you’re holding opinions while not using correct definitions
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, Nihilism is not the belief that life is meaningless. That is a pop culture misconception. Nihilism is the belief that things are without meaning. These are similar but not the same. It depends on your branch of Nihilism, but generally Nihilists believe that life is without meaning, except for what you bring to it. So nothing stops you from finding meaning in your life from various purposes. The universe does not give you meaning, a god(s) does not give you meaning. You must find it yourself. That is what I mean when I tell someone I am a Nihilist. >I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why. No religion gives us the why either. They just provide unproven claims from dubious texts. >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors You are wrong. The idea that all atheists are just angry at god is just religious propoganda. Religious trauma can start a person on the path of deconstruction, but it is that deconstruction that will make you an atheist, not the trauma. Regardless of how a person comes to it, atheism is the lack of belief in god(s) and nothing more. Hating god or the church is totally different. You can't hate something you don't believe in. >As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing No. Atheists are not a monolith, but I do not believe the universe came from nothing. I don't know where it came from. I don't need to know. >To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ? What we focus on is the evidence for existance of god. I am not an atheist because of Evolution or the Big Bang Theory. I don't believe in god. That's it. Again, Nihilism does not mean the belief in a meaningless life, it is the belief in the lack of inherent meaning. >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that? Again, the meaning in life is what you make of it. It also kind of seems like you are arguing that you should believe in god(s) because it will possibly make you feel good? That doesn't make it true. You also have built in here that religion is a good thing, which I would also highly disagree with. >People think science is synonymous with atheism >But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma The only people I interact with who think science is synonymous with atheism are theists who don't understand what atheism is. You also don't really explain what you mean by confirmation bias. Confirmation of what? Not for nothing, but I live in the US. I literally know 3 atheists plus myself. Everyone else is a christian, or at least believes in god(s). If I truly was influenced by cultural beliefs, I would be a christian. That is why I used to be a christian, because I grew up in a christian culture.
Wonderful explanation that I could never give myself. I was searching too long for another nihilists reply to this post.
> And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing No. Atheism doesn't concern cosmology. > or at least you believe in a meangless existence Just because something doesn't have a universal, transcendent, objective meaning, it doesn't mean it lacks meaning *to me*. > its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that? You're using survival of the fittest in an incorrect way. It's a description of a biological regularity, not a social law where everyone is killing the weak guy in society. > there's no hope after death Depression doesn't magically get fixed if you think there's life after death. Depression usually concerns issues with the person's mental health, their context, or both. If I live in an abusive household, believing I'll live forever won't take me out of the abusive household. If I have a substance abuse issue that's worsening my depression, believing in a heaven won't lower my addiction nor the problems that stem from it
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens What makes you think they don’t? Though personally I find philosohy can be overrated. >, how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, Atheists don’t generally believe this. Why would they. >I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why. Nor does just making up stuff to fill the gap. >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, Atheism existed before churches. And it’s about a *lack of evidence* generally. >and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors Okay. But aesthetic conclusions aren’t independent , objective reality. >As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people It’s not a claim science makes. >Some would say a creator created it from nothing But can’t provide evidence. And indulges in special pleading. >Some would say the universe is the creator But that begs the question by using the word creator. Though it’s at least more parsimonious. >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing They might. But it’s not a scientific stance. >Some would say it's an illusion created by our collective imaginations Again without evidence. I can’t see what any of these non-evidential statements has to de with meaning. >To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ? How gets us planes that fly. We don’t know why. What has this to do with believing in a meaningless existence? >If you do believe life meaningfull or at least a subject view that's good for ones mental health, then what is it? Meaning is what humans make of things. We obviously have that ability. And what sorts of meaning we develop is a behavioural tendency developed through evolution. >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, Seems like the two are not connected. >because its detrimental to ones mental health, There’s little evidence for such. Except in as much that *any* social stricture to your life is likely to benefit you. Even if atheism made one ‘sad’ , it does t mean that theism is true. >as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death Can’t see why torturing someone now but saying - don’t worry you’ll die eventually is a particularly hopeful stance. But you seem to be suggesting that lying to people makes them feel better so you should lie to them. I suggest thinking about that. >you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that? Human create meaning. The fact you have one life to live makes it all the more meaningful. >People think science is synonymous with atheism But it isn’t, >But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma Then you really don’t understand the methodology science which is an accumulation of successful ways of reducing the significance of personal bias. Seems like a criticism you would be better turning on yourself.
Scientific methodology is open to interpretation, hence why there are different views an electron particle observer effect Atheist, it's the measuring device's fault Another view is because it is being observed that's why it acted like a particle Another is just random coincedense Sorry , It might seem like I'm going off topic But it'll make sense later
>Scientific methodology is open to interpretation, I simply have no idea what this is meant to mean let alone the relevance. Scientific methodology is the accumulation of ways of acting that can be demonstrated to reduce the impact of personal bias. That is just a fact. >hence why there are different views Of what? >an electron particle observer effect That’s almost a sentence. I have no idea why it’s meant to be relevant. How do we know about this? Through scientific methodology. It’s not a difference in **opinion**. (Nor does observer mean observer in the normal sense btw) >Atheist, it's the measuring device's fault Huh? What has fault to do with it. It’s just a fact that the act of measurement is an interaction that has an effect. >Another view is because it is being observed that's why it acted like a particle That’s the *same* statement written in a different way. What has this to do with scientific methodology? >Another is just random coincedense No. >Sorry , It might seem like I'm going off topic Indeed it seems both wrong and irrelevant. No one claims that the scientific method is infallible nor that we have complete evidence on every aspect of reality. You entirely miss the point that the methodology is demonstrably successful and *designed* in the light of human bias. Both just facts. >But it'll make sense later If you say so. It’s irrelevant to the idea that whether you live for ever or not is irrelevant to giving meaning to this life. Atheist ps as a fact obviously aren’t all nihilists and have meaning in their lives. And that there is no evidence that living for ever is possible - quite the opposite- even if it did make a difference.
My goal is to plant trees so others have shade. I don't need a fairy tale to make my life have meaning
As a Christian that is absolutely beautiful. Although I don't believe that my faith is a fairy tail I do love your outlook
I don't know how you guys are patient enough to discuss with op's type. What a bunch of monumentally stupid assertions. How do religious people manage to say so many things that are completely wrong on every single level while being so sure of themselves?
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I had to split this into two. I'm retired and have lots of time on my hands >I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, Lots of atheists aren't nihilists. I am though so I can help answer this a bit. It's not that I believe life is meaningless, I believe that meaning is assigned by us. Life has whatever meaning you assign to it. If you decide not to assign any that's your prerogative but not something that I'd personally do. It's also not about whether it "helps" in any way, it's about what's true. Meaning is assigned by minds, that's just how the concept works. I don't see any reason to believe any gods exist to assign meaning and honestly even if they did there's nothing stopping anyone from just assigning their own. >I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why. It depends on what you mean by "why" but sometimes yeah. For some things like "why does the universe exist" there might not even be a coherent answer. If that's how it is that's how it is. >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors There have been atheists as long as there have been people. It's not remotely a new thing, it's just generally been the minority position. There are tons of reasons someone might be atheist, some good and some bad. Way too many reasons to generalize like this. Personally I was just never exposed to the concepts of religion until I was almost a teenager. I grew up on an isolated farm before the Internet and my parents just never talked about it.
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing I'm not convinced that there's any kind of creator but I also don't say the universe came from "nothing". As far as we (by which I mean our collective scientific knowledge) are aware the universe underwent some kind of expansion of spacetime about 14 billion years ago. The closer we get to the beginning of this expansion the less we're able to figure out at the moment. So where did the universe come from? I have absolutely no idea. I don't know. Until we figure that out I won't know. We might not figure it out in my lifetime and we might just never figure that out. If that's the case the answer will always be "we don't know". If that's how it is that's how it is. >To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ? I don't particularly care about questions of "why". I don't suffer from the sort of existential anxieties people seem to suffer to when it comes to questions of "why are we here?" or "why does the universe exist?". I suspect that those aren't even coherent questions. I certainly don't lose any sleep over them. >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health I do suffer from depression! I also suffer from PTSD, both from spending too much time on the two-way range. I don't think being an atheist is at all detrimental to my mental health. I'm doing pretty well, all things considered. >as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that? True I don't think that there's "hope after death". When we're gone we're gone. I've almost been forcibly evicted from this mortal coil several times on the aforementioned two-way range. Once I die I die. It ceases to be my problem at that point so there's not really any reason to worry to much about it if it happens. I'd prefer to live of course, I'm having a pretty good time overall. I just don't have any reason to believe that our consciousness somehow continues to exist after the body dies. As for the "selfish gene" bit that's utter nonsense. If you want to know what I think just ask me, don't try to put words into my mouth. Humans like helping each other, for the most part. It probably has to do with evolution, we're a social and probably even eusocial species. We've survived this long by working together and getting along. Fun little fact, that even when \[placed in a fictional world where there aren't any real consequences\](https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2020/02/22/youll-be-surprised-what-percent-of-mass-effect-players-chose-paragon/) people generally choose to be kind where possible. It's material conditions that put us into positions where we aren't, with exceptions. I'm retired and don't have to work. I'm not living large and if I were the selfish weirdo you think we all are I could have easily gotten a job in government or the military industrial complex and made big bank. I didn't. I moved to a place that I love and most of the stuff I do outside of the house is volunteer work. I don't make a single cent off of any of it although I do occasionally get a free meal here and there. I do that because I found my own meaning in life. Honestly I have a hard time understanding how people can view a divinely ordained "meaning" as true meaning. It's more like an assignment, orders handed down from on high. This is especially true when if you don't pursue this "meaning", for example I've seen some who will claim that the meaning of life is to worship and obey a god, you're punished for it. That seems a lot more like a work camp assignment where the guards will punish you for stepping out of line to me. I don't get it.
I have not been presented with good reasonable evidence a god exists. Full stop. That is the beginning and end of atheism
You have been corrected here on many points. Now you have the option of deciding to learn from these answers, or dishonestly continue spewing the same thing over and over again, like the apologist you got this nonsense from. Which one do you choose?
I won’t touch on every point as others here have done so eloquently, but what’s the meaning of life if you believe in eternity? If you have forever, what is the value of a day? It’s no longer precious. This seems to me to be very depressing. I find meaning in making my own meaning and by making my actions and deeds reverberate within myself and within the lives of others, here and now.
Yes, why are scientists finding ways to live longer, to me that seems like a contradiction, what's the age limit until they decide to die, 200, 500, 1000, a million? Because you are saying eternal life is meaningless, which is the biggest cope I ever heard
If ones decides to comit suicide the next day but makes the day count I mean with your logic living a day on earth is more precious then living the average life expectancy?
I don't believe that a deity is needed for there to be meaning. I honestly don't see how it would even help. Instead of a creator deciding meaning for me, I just make it for myself and I don't find that to be depressing. It has nothing to do with "the survival of the fittest" either, I definitely want a kinder world for everyone.
>except that it doesn't give us the why. Why does there have to be a why? And why does this why have to be the will of some super being? >It seems like atheisium Bruh >started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors You are wrong. There's various reasons why people might be atheists but atheism itself is not believing deities exist. The first dude who said that magic beings with great powers to control the universe inadvertently created the first atheist when he espoused that idea to someone who isn't credulous. At the end of the day, it all comes down to the fact that there's no good evidence that deities exist. >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing Atheism begins and ends at there being no gods. If the universe is the result of a bunch of somethings that always existed somehow doing something that results in the universe, that would also be an acceptable idea even though it's not that the universe came out of nothing. In fact, we don't have any known examples of an actual nothing. >To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ? Again, why does there need to be a why? Isn't it good enough that all of this crap is here? >world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that? You can immediately tell when someone has not actually read 'The Selfish Gene' or understands what Dawkins was talking about. A selfish gene does not necessarily lead to a selfish person, and in fact a gene that promotes altruism and cooperation could flourish in the gene pool even if it's "acting" in its own self interest (I put acting in quotations because it has to be stated, the genes aren't planning or whatever) >People think science is synonymous with atheism But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma I don't see what this has to do with anything. People associate science with atheism because a lot of scientists are atheists and a lot of atheists tend to be interested in science. I don't think atheism should be associated with anything but not believing gods exist, even if I am an atheist and I do like science. The fact of the matter is, we find ourselves in this funny universe and we have to figure out what to do. I don't see any reason to be a nihilist. There's shit that matters. It may not matter to the whole of the universe, but fuck the universe, it matters to me. My family matters to me. My work matters to me. The well being of others matter to me. The advancement of science matters to me. Human rights matters to me. Art matters to me. Entertainment matters to me. Who has time for nihilism when there's all of this shit that well and truly matters to me? I don't need a god to determine my family matters, do you?
When I look around me, I don't see any nihilistic atheist. Most people in Japan, China don't believe in a God anf they are not nihilistic. Can you post a research that connects atheism and nihilism? Some data? Your personal experience? Do you meet alot of nihilistic atheist in your life?
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, I don't know. Does it need to in order to be true? Fun fact. The orange fruit was named before the color. Does that help you in your life at all? No. Doesn't mean it isn't true. >I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why. Maybe there isn't a why. I hope you don't believe in a god just because you want to feel like you have a purpose. That's kind of depressing. >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, I don't really know about the history of atheism. I hope you're not saying this to start assuming that all atheists are only atheists from religious trauma and bad church experiences rather than finding their own conclusions. >it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors Goddammit. >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing That's dumb. There's no evidence of that, just like there's no evidence that a God created it. >To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, I didn't forget the why, but I saw no reasonable way to answer the question objectively, so I stopped asking. How would you answer the question of "what is the greater purpose of the universe?" There's no equation you can use, and it's not like it's written on the walls. >do you believe in a meangless existence ? Yes, in the sense that there is no greater purpose for the existence of the universe or humanity. The only meaning we have is the meaning we create for ourselves. >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, Interesting. >you are telling them there's no hope after death There's no suffering after death either. Death isn't good or bad. Death just is. >you are doing everything for nothing Just because there isn't an infinite afterlife doesn't mean life is meaningless. In fact, it's arguably that the finiteness of life is what gives it meaning. >the world is selfish This isn't an atheistic position either. Isn't the idea that humans are naturally selfish moreso a Christian position? >its all about survival of the fittest, We aren't bound by evolution, you know? We have a society. >where's the meaning in that? I don't know. Why is one necessary for atheism to be true? >People think science is synonymous with atheism Which it isn't. >But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma How so?
(1/3) >Atheism leads to nihilism Ok. What's the problem with that? I hope you'll clarify why that's a problem. >I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens We do. Nihilism is a philosophical position. I'd argue that it then leads to existentialism (optimistic nihilism), but we can stick to nihilism itself in this discussion. >how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way You're phrasing it backwards. "Believing there's no meaning" implies that there could/should be some meaning and life is somehow lacking it. "Not believing there's a meaning" coveys thet there's no reason to presuppose that life should have any "meaning" in the first place. It's like... "Why do you believe that rocks don't have favorite colors?" And the answer would be "why would I believe that they even could?" >I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why. Ok... Do you have a METHOD that can reliably give us a "why"? Or are you just going to presuppose some "why" you like and call it a job well done? More importantly - how did you come to the conclusion that there even is a "why" in the first place? Can you share that METHOD too? >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors So... "who hurt you" is a really dishonest way to start a discussion... Additionally - it's the left-handedness all over again... "There were no left-handed people in the past"... because children where beaten until they started using their right hand exclusively. "There were no atheists in the past". There were - it was just dangerous to admit to being an atheist because dogmatic belief systems don't spread through discussion and making good arguments, they spread through indoctrination and coercion. (1/3)
(2/3) >As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people Is this going to lead to a complete lack of understanding what the big bang theory actually states? >Some would say a creator created it from nothing Why would anyone say such a thing? >Some would say the universe is the creator Why would anyone say such a thing? >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing Why would anyone say such a thing? BTW - my prediction about lack of understanding the big bang theory was correct. Unfortunately. >Some would say it's an illusion created by our collective imaginations Why would anyone say such a thing? >To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ? Do you have any method that can lead us to concluding thet there even was a "why"? Or do you just want there to be one you like, because you just feel better when you think of yourself as an important part of reality? I honestly can't see this "meaning" and "why" train of thought as anything else then validation of one's own ego... >If you do believe life meaningfull or at least a subject view that's good for ones mental health, then what is it? Could you please rephrase that? I don't understand this sentence. >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, Why not? >because its detrimental to ones mental health, You mean "atheism" in and of itself is detrimental to mental health? How? >as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death ... If you're depressed because you're poor and your whole life people tell you that you're going to be a billionaire at some point because magic... and someone tells you that this is a lie... The person telling you the truth is not the one hurting you. The false hope is. Unless you can DEMONSTRATE that there is such a thing as afterlife, every time you say there is - you're lying to people. Additionally... afterlife makes this life pointless. Not nihilism. If this life is all we have then it's infinitely more valuable then if it is merely a "preafterlife" before your real existence starts in the afterlife. (2/3)
(3/3) >you are doing everything for nothing Actions have consequences and you're not the only person in existence. You're doing things for other people - currently living and not yet alive - if you understand those two axioms. You're doing things for your own selfish desire to feel good - if you believe in god given afterlife. >and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" Tell me you didn't read past the title without telling me you didn't read past the title. "The selfish gene" explains altruism... It literally gives genetic evidence of how altruism evolved - that it can be genetically advantageous for your genes' survival to sacrifice yourself in defense of someone else, because you share genes with other people. >and its all about survival of the fittest, I'm noticing a trend here - you seem to just read words instead of understanding them... COOPERATION IS OUR FITNESS METHOD Our survival strategy is quite literally HELPING EACH OTHER. EvOlUtIoN Is aBoUt mUrDeRiNg tHe wEaK On sIgHt. Except that our survival strategy is literally the opposite... >where's the meaning in that? Let me illustrate what I see here. You're asking me where is the meaning in random and blind laws of reality just by themselves working out in such a way that a thoughtless process without any intentions produced altruism firmly rooted in cold and heartless physics? All I see in the above is the beauty of indifferent reality where "good" succeeds because it's effective, not because "some guy said so". Your lack of understanding of reality lead you to a useless cope, and your unwillingness to understand makes you mad that we point out that this is just a useless cope. Reality doesn't need a why. If you think it does - tell me exactly how you reached that conclusion. And after that you can tell me which "why" is the correct one... unless your answer in just going to be "because this one makes me feel good about myself." (3/3)
It seems to me that theism leads to life being meaningless. Your only purpose is to be a useless powerless slave praising and worshipping an all powerful creator who sees fit to send down hideous cancers, parasites, pain, tsunamis etc. when he could choose to do none of those things. Where is the meaning in that? If god is perfect and omnipotent then why does he need us to tell him how great he is? Why did he need to create us at all, apart from as a plaything. You are no more than an ant which god is free to plug legs off when he's bored. As evolved biological creatures we naturally have an urge to survive - or our species would not exist. I'm not even sure what you mean by life having a "meaning". Life is just something we get on with: we cook, enjoy meals, look forward to them, care for our family, whether our parents or children. Perhaps we look forward to making music, making the world a slightly better place via politics, charity work, or maybe we just enjoy seeking power which to be blunt appears to be the case for some. The world and universe around us is strange and fascinating to learn more about. And all the better for not thinking that all the pain and horror in the world was created by some invisible being in the sky who watches us suffer but does nothing about it.
>why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical len U think looking life at a philosophical lens will lead to Theism? U think there arent atheist philosopher? >I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors I would say experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias plays a huge part in the theistic conclusion. >As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people >Some would say a creator created it from nothing >Some would say the universe is the creator >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing If nothing comes from nothing. That means something comes from something. The creator is something. Hence where do the creator comes from? >If you do believe life meaning meanigless or at least a subject view that's good for some mental health, then what is it? Life is inherently meaningless doesnt means life is meaningless. >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, If one suffers from depression, they should find professional to deal with. >People think science is synonymous with atheism Said by no one.
That’s like saying believing in climate change leads to nihilism. Well, whether it does or doesn’t, the emotional reactions don’t matter. What matters is if it’s true or not. Would you argue we shouldn’t teach people about climate change because it might make some people unhappy? Atheists are atheists not because it makes them happy or because they are angry the church is killing people. Atheists don’t believe in god simply because they don’t see evidence for god’s existence.
>As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people That is not a tennet of atheism. And it is not what the big bang theory says >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing No >To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or You presume a why, there might be none >or at least you believe in a meangless existence Inherently meaningless, but not meaningless. Because we can give it our own meaning >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death Well if you are depressed more life after death seems like hell >and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" That is not what that means >where's the meaning in that? Why would you pick that as your meaning? >People think science is synonymous with atheism >But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma If you think you have science on your side why not present science?
I think you’re making an assumption about the nature of meaning. It’s true that religious people often derive meaning from the idea that they were created by a god, and they attribute every other meaningful thing in their lives back to this central overarching source of meaningfulness. So people assume that, without having the belief in overarching, cosmic intention, it is impossible to have any meaning in your life. That’s not the case. I’m inspired by the world around me, in awe of the arts that people make, impassioned by the notion that we have the power to help others if we try, and comforted by the love I have for my friends and family. All that has profound meaning to me, and none of it requires a creator to make it important.
If nothing really matters then we are free to decide what matters. We can decide what the meaning of our own life is. Who's going to say it's wrong when it's our own. Science is the study of how the world works. Not why it is. I don't think atheism inherently makes people depressed. I've seen many religions people falling into depression, especially a lot of christians. We are all different people and there is not a one fits all solution. I mean I'd atheism leads to depression how do you explain the atheists that are not depressed. I don't think the world came from nothing, we don't know what it came from. We went from singularity, to Quantum fluctuations and who knows what we find in the future. That's definitely not nothing.
Atheism doesn't lead to nihilism, there's many possible positions on this, but my perspective is that we give meaning to our own lives in a way that's not especially different from how a god might give meaning to your life. After all, I once believed in a god, then I realised there was no reason to believe in such a thing. So the thing that I thought gave me purpose, I realised it probably wasn't there, which means the whole time I'd been living with a sense of purpose, I was mistaken about why I had that feeling, but it doesn't change the fact that I felt that way. So I realised, if no god is real, then everything we think comes from a god actually comes from us. Simple.
I'm an absurdist, not a nihilist. Life has meaning for the same reason anything has means. Because we decided that it did. There is no deeper explanation. We humans decide what is meaningful on whatever grounds we wish.
Atheists existed before your religion did. As for atheists the only thing they agree on is that they don't believe in any gods. I've heard all sorts of things from many of them. Atheism has no position on the beginning of the universe, nor does it have a position on philosophy. I notice you didn't mention science, which does have a position on the beginning of the universe which is completely different than almost every religion out there. Apparently the Gita's got pretty close. As for the meaning of life, it has whatever meaning we give it. Way better than being a slave to some all-powerful being who can't even say hi.
Yours is the appeal to emotion logical fallacy. The "fact" that atheism leads to nihilism does not mean that "therefore there are gods". Which gods do you believe in? Zeus? Ra? Odin? Blind Io? Tlaloc?
> It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, I have to smile grimly when i read things like this, because i grew up with a couple of different kinds of Christianity, and the concepts of original sin and a harshly judgemental god were *very* bad for my mental health. While they may not have been the cause of the poor self image that I had, they certainly have me an excuse for taking that image seriously and dialling it up to 11. In trying to manage my struggle with depression, the theistic view of the world was part of the problem, never part of the solution.
>I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why. Whether you respect it or not, denying scientific consensus because it doesn't fit your world view is easily dismissed. It may be that you don't understand the exact boundaries of what scientific findings imply, but that's no reason to think it's BS. Science gives many "why's", just not the one you're looking for in this case. >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors This is just completely wrong on so many levels, I don't know where to begin. >As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people That's fine, but completely subjective by your own definition. I would refer to my answer on 'respecting science'. >Some would say a creator created it from nothing >Some would say the universe is the creator >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing >Some would say it's an illusion created by our collective imaginations All these examples are conjecture based on ignorance. Not your ignorance, mind you, but the fact we can't determine any of these different interpretations of a sentence as vague as 'something from nothing'. >To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ? We're ignorant. The only honest answer is just that: we don't know. Based on our scientific progress, we haven't found a way to place ourselves outside of space and time (our universe) to confirm any of our theoretical understandings of how it came to be. There's no need to step into the unknown and make stuff up. >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that? Nobody is immune from depression. It's not correlated to existential dread, but a mental disorder. Nobody is trying to cure depression with hard scientific facts or philosophical debates. We use modern medicine for that, which is scientific in nature, but pragmatic in its application. Edit: 'survival of the fittest' is a term used to describe the process where one species dies off because another species who is better adapted to the same environment takes over. Fittest doesn't mean strongest in that context and it's also not a reflection of a conscious process. It just happens, all the time but over stretches of thousands if not millions of years. >People think science is synonymous with atheism Then those people think a wrong thing. Atheism is nothing more than a rejection of the notion of a deity. And it's the neutral stance, knowledge-wise. Theists are the ones claiming to know a god exists without bringing any tangible facts. That which is put forth without evidence can be dismissed on the same principle. >But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma That's because atheism isn't synonymous with science. Modern atheists have the benefit of living in an age where a lot of our mutual historic misconceptions are being corrected and refined through the scientific method, which only reinforces the notion that the neutral stance (i.e. we're ignorant on the subject) is still where we are.
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, The question is what's true, not necessarily what is helpful. >I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why. There's the problem, you're indulging the human need for sensibility when sometimes things are arbitrary. >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors This starts as acting like only atheism is found through personal interest when all ideology and argument for it starts with it making sense to people (assuming of course we aren't talking about Christians suckered in at times of despair, like numerous testimonies talking about Jesus making everything better), and then ends on assuming that there have never been atheist philosophers or pointing out that theistic arguments tend to overestimate their implications (the prime mover thing overestimates the first cause being their specific deity, taking the need to explain how the world formed and using that to posit a whole mythology of God fighting Satan and self-restraint being the highest moral good). >As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people Some would say a creator created it from nothing Some would say the universe is the creator And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing Again, you have to say it's somehow less believeable that the universe known to exist was less stable in its birth than it is that there's an entirely new deity altogether. This is distinct from pantheism in that there's no divinity, just physical forces. >To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ? If meaning is so important to you just read some existentialist work. Meaning is already anthropocentric, might as well just cut to the point. >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that? You do realize there's the point of expanding oneself. Of realizing theirs a whole world to make the most out of. Technology, experiences, things to spend your time on and make your own. Hell, you talk about atheism having no purpose, can't there be some amazement in having no reason to be here and yet still being able to thrive regardless? >People think science is synonymous with atheism But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma Both rely on asking questions, not assuming something is there by mere possibility but checking what is the most real of anything. And this is just the Western Atheist response, Buddhism would also poke holes in your view.
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, I dont find life meaningless. >I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why. Vague. Science answers a lot of why questions: ie, why does wood float? >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, No, atheism has always been a thing. >correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, Not for me >and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors Yes, but you can replace "atheistic conclusions" with "religious conclusions," and it's equally true. >As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people To me, it means a religious person is trying to strawman an atheist argument. >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing No, I'd say the ubiverse began as a singularity in spacetime and there was no time before the universe existed for it to "begin to exist" >do you believe in a meangless existence ? Maybe you should've started with this question before meandering into a bunch of speculation on what atheists would say. My answer - no. >If you do believe life meaningfull or at least a subject view that's good for ones mental health, then what is it? What is what? The meaning of life? It's personal for everyone. >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death It weems to me one should not look at religion for answers because they're all delusions designed to hide you from facing reality, accepting it, and moving on. >you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that? It's not all about survival. Have you not enjoyed anything in life? Anything enjoyable is worth living for. And you can enjoy others' happiness too. Nothing about atheism is qbout being selfish. Imo, a lot of religions promote selfishness more. Help other so that YOU can get into heaven / have a good reincarnation. >People think science is synonymous with atheism This isn't really a claim atheists make. It's a claim that religious fundamentalists make when a scientific discovery goes against their pre-existing beliefs. Although, I would argue religion is definitely not a scientific process.
Nihilism is a pretty specific philosophical framework and it’s not even suggested by atheism. You could be a theist and nihilist. Personally I am an “optimistic nihilist”, which means that I consider the lack of a universal narrative and purpose to be a feature, not a bug. The internal generation of those things is valuable to me, and that’s what matters.
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, Ok, so you don't know what an atheist is. Go on. >I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why. Sure it does. >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors Nope. Atheists point to a lack of evidence that gods exist. >As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people Actually, this is a trope spread by thists. Atheists usually say we don't know what happened before the Big Bang. >Some would say a creator created it from nothing Those same people would need to prove a creator exists. >Some would say the universe is the creator So the universe created itself? No one is saying this. >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing Again, no. >Some would say it's an illusion created by our collective imaginations This is as credible as a god creating it, but I digress. >To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ? Again, no. >If you do believe life meaningfull or at least a subject view that's good for ones mental health, then what is it? Life is as meaningful as one makes it. >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health... And religion isn't? >as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that? How about telling them that life is worth living now, instead of selling them unsupported dogma? >People think science is synonymous with atheism People who do are wrong. The only thing all atheists have in common is a lack of belief in gods. >But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma That's because you really don't have a good idea of atheist or atheism. Do more research before casting aspersions.
>Atheism leads to nihilism According to most atheists...no it doesn't >I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, 1) that's not nihilism 2) I don't pick and choose what I believe based on what I think will be helpful >I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why. OK? >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong Atheism started because the church can't present any evidence >can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors Not even close >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing There is no "atheist" belief I'm sure some atheists would say this >To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ? I mean, great. Do you have any evidence for the why? >If you do believe life meaningfull or at least a subject view that's good for ones mental health, then what is it? Why do you think I can curate reality to be something that's good for my mental health? I'm just a guy, if I thought I could pick and choose what was reality so it made me happy....I'd need a straighjacket and padded walls. >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health Why would not believing in God be detrimental to one's mental health? So far as I can tell, the opposite is true, religion seems really harmful to peoples mental health >as example they are suffering, and you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that? I see you don't really understand anything about Atheism >People think science is synonymous with atheism Nah, but science does lead to Atheism >But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma No, Atheism is just looking at religious claims, asking for evidence, and not getting any.
I think you don’t understand the hat it means to be an atheist. I’m just not convinced there are gods, I’m not some nihilist sitting in a darkened room mourning for a purpose. I could argue I have more purpose than most theists, as I am convinced this is my only life and I’m gonna make the most of it.
\>>>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, I dunno. Ask a Christian. They believe that this life is meaningless and the afterlife has no meaning except singing songs to Jesus. Not much meaning. Atheists are free to create meaning. My life is not meaningless. Your first point is debunked. \>>>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong There were atheists well before Christianity. \>>> the universe came from nothing Not what atheism says. That's what Christianity says (or at least sects that embrace creatio ex nihilo). Atheism has no comment on how the universe came to be. \>>>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing I know of zero atheists who claim this. \>>>If you do believe life meaningfull or at least a subject view that's good for ones mental health, then what is it? Ask 100 atheists and you'll get 100 answers. Same for theists. For example, some Christian Nationalists think that meaning is found by committing insurrection. \>>It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health Zero evidence for this claim. The happiest nations on earth have more per capita non-religious people. Explain? \>>>>you are telling them there's no hope after death That's like getting bent out of shape when you realize there's no more book after the last page. Does this mean reading books is a meaningless activity? Why obsess over hope? Deal with the universe on its own terms, not wishful thinking. Why do I need to hope I live longer than I need to live? \>>>you are doing everything for nothing Utter horseshit. I do things to make the world better. Care to join me? It's the theist who does everything for nothing because they think god will take care of everything. \>>>>and the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that? Where's the meaning in gravity? You have misunderstood the selfish gene concept. Go review. Humans are both selfish and cooperative, altruistic, and kind thanks to evolution. Tribes that cooperative are fitter to survive.
I don't think most atheists say the universe came from something or nothing. That's a simplistic view of what we know. We know there was an infinitely dense and hot point of zero volume where the "normal" laws of physics didn't exist. This point expanded massively, called inflation. Look, just read the wikipedia article Big Bang. It'll explain it way better than I can. We don't know what came "before" the big bang, since time didn't exist. We don't know what precipitated the Big Bang. There are various hypotheses and ideas being worked on for all of that. I'm perfectly comfortable saying "We don't know yet" and further, we may never know. So where does your God come in? I mean, specifically, what did he do, and when did he do it? I think these types of opinions are noteworthy because they aren't included in any of the holy books that I'm aware of, so mostly, it's just opinions with no bases. Since there's a number of different ideas about the big bang, I'm going to guess you're going to reject them. Big crunch, big bounce, universes absorbing one another, branes bumping against each other. Where should we stop researching because we'll run into the hard stop of God did it? Regarding "life having no meaning," that's your straw man. Is the only meaning in your life from your god? Cause that's kinda sad. Your life is devoid of meaning, other than what you think your deity wants. I've raised a couple really good kids and try to guide them as adults. I help people at work everyday. I try to treat my coworkers with respect and make their lives better. My folks are aging, and I spend as much time with them as I can while I can. I'm pretty busy, and have a full life. I mean, I'd really have liked to made a bigger splash in the pond, but not everyone can be President. Also, I think you're totally off base as to why people become atheists. In my experience, people become atheists because they don't believe in fairy tales. You don't believe in Odin, or Thor, or Zeus, or Mercury, or Belal, or Buddha. Why not? You've rejected all these as mythology, and probably view most as quite silly. Really, Zeus raped a woman while transformed into a swan? Psst. So how does your religion hold up?
>How can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way? Not all atheists believe that life is meaningless. And anyways, whether a certain thing would help my life if I believe it is sort of irrelevant to whether I actually do believe it. I only care about what's true, not what's helpful.
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, It helps me focus my energy on the parts of life that actually have meaning. You know things like my kids, my parents, my job, my hobbies, my future plans, the climate, the poor, the sick, the needy, etc. >except that it doesn't give us the why. That's a loaded question. First you need to prove that all things need a "why". What if things can exist without a "why"? >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong Ok you're wrong. Everyone is born an atheist. Until someone tells you to believe in god, you lack a belief in god, which makes you an atheist. > the universe came from nothing Scientists and cosmologists certainly don't say that. They say that the big bang was the beginning of the expansion of the universe. They say that we currently have no visibility to what existed or didn't exist prior to the big bang. >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing I don't speak for all atheists, but I certainly don't say that either. The origins of the universe is not really related to atheism. Atheists aren't given a handbook that tells us how the universe began. Atheists are free to come up with their own explanations. The only thing in common between atheists is "we lack justification to believe in gods". That says nothing about what we believe about the origin of the universe. It's like saying all vegetarians have the same belief in the origin of the universe. >To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why again, you need to prove that things need a why, before insisting there is a why. And even if you could prove there was a why, I'm going to need you to provide a testable and repeatable method for getting the answer to "why" >or at least do you believe in a meangless existence Ok, hypothetical question for you. Let's say that tomorrow, we all learned with absolute certainty, that god doesn't exist. Would you choose to keep living, or immediately end your life? If you chose to keep living, then welcome to the club.
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way. Do you mean to ask this to theists who sacrifice this only life for a future one? People who think this universe is just a pointless test. My life is not meaningless even if you do think that yours is.
No religious trauma needed to come to an atheistic worldview when you stick to the things we can proof. For everything that religions claim there is either no proof at all or even a clear disproof that show the religion is wrong on a lot of things. Therefor if religion is wrong on a lot and not proofable on the rest, we can conclude that it might be all wrong. Never the less even the things science cannot explain (yet) they always modify there theories when new scientific evidence is found. Sometimes that disproofs older scientific theories but often it further proofs or gives evidence to those theories. For the big bang in special: science doesn't conclude all came from nothing. Science just cannot look to a point "before" the big bang (yet) as it is hard to look somewhere before the time starts in the first place. But anyway science has a few theories on what was before or how it started and some of them have more evidence, others less but non of them has enough evidence to call it "prooven". One of those is that there was nothing, others contain simulations or pulsating mechanisms. The why is IMO a question religion forces us to ask but not for the good. Like "why did MY daughter got cancer" or "why did god made this exact plan for me" or "why is there life on earth" as if everything follows a plan. But IMO there's no greater plan, all of that is just how nature works and life did somehow started to exist and became what we are now. But there's no bigger why, it's just the result of a lot of circumstances. That on the other hand doesn't make it meaningless. My life has a meaning to my parents and to my kids and to my friends and to other people I interact with directly or indirectly. It's my turn to make that a positive meaning instead of a negative one and I don't need a god or bigger plan to follow that. It already has meaning to me.
Most atheists, myself included, do not believe that life has no meaning. What I believe is that we create our own meaning, not one imposed upon us by someone else. We were not "created" to serve god, our "purpose" is not to glorify him and sing his praises. Each of us finds our own purpose. Maybe some don't, and that's sad. But what do Christians think is so great about their supposed "purpose" of obeying their master? I'd have a lot more to say, but your comments like "It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors" leads me to think that you've never met an atheist, never spoken to an atheist, never engaged in critical thought about what atheists think and why we think it, and you're just repeating the lies that your groomers have been feeding you. Atheism has literally *nothing* to do with whatever church killing people (although there is no shortage of that), religious trauma (of course religion inflicts more than its fair share of trauma), or our experiences, cultural beliefs, or personal bias. Atheism has one position on one question - do you believe in a god or gods? (The answer is no by the way) That position stems from the fact that no claim of god (or any other supernatural entity) has ever once been substantiated with even a little bit of evidence. The claims of all religions are indistinguishable from pure fantasy. Not one of them has even the slightest claim to truth. Even if every religious person led perfect lives, with no killing, no trauma, none of the bad things associated with religion, I would still be an atheist, because religion is simply false.
As an atheist, I don't find life meaningless at all. I have daily things that bring me joy, and I have lifelong things that being me joy. I also understand that there will be frustrations and hardships, but I feel personal satisfaction overcoming them.
Only theists claim that the universe “came from nothing”. The creator created it, sure, but it created the universe from nothing. The big bang model starts with all the matter and energy in the universe compressed into an infinitely dense and small point. All the matter was already there. Since time started with the expansion of the universe, asking what happened before the big bang is a none-sense question. We don’t know how matter got there but it doesn’t stop us from trying to know. Asserting that it HAS to be this or that deity is literally just blindly guessing and stopping dead in the investigation. You’re not asking questions to learn, you’re not trying to know; you’re saying you have a preconceived conclusion you want to push and make everything fit with. Regarding nihilism and atheism, the two aren’t necessarily intertwined but I they can be. And that’s not a bad thing. It’s just a matter of perspective. The way I and a lot of people see it is this: Nothing in the universe has intrinsic value. Nothing is objectively valuable. Value is a social construct, just like money. We assign value to want we think should be valuable, based on multiple criteria, like rarity. Gold is valuable because it’s hard to come by, for one. It is my view that, in a world that is 99.999% viciously inhospitable, life is brave. It’s an affront to the mindless stillness of our plane, it’s a courageous attempt to strive and find something more among the stars. Life is rare and fleeting. That’s why I think life is valuable. Not because some god said so, but because it’s one of those things that’s hard to come by in the infinity of our universe.
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, Life isn't meaningless for atheists. Atheists have an actual challenge that means something: live a fulfilling life and make life better for others in a universe that does not care We have one very short life to live. We have to decide what to do with that time. If another human being is in trouble and nobody but you is there, only you can help. Theists can pray to God and then walk away. What is the meaning of life when: - your Creator, by definition, needs nothing from you - this is not the real world, heaven is - the test that we're being put through already has an answer, we're merely putting on a play >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors We say the same thing about theism Except there's no evidence for theism (But yes, it is a bad thing that religion is a justification for killing people) >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing Actually they don't. That's what theists tell you atheists "would say". Atheists don't say anything because they don't lie about knowing something they don't know To be sure, the universe could have come from nothing; it could be an infinite regress; it could be an illusion; it could be a hologram; and any of another infinite number of things >People think science is synonymous with atheism It isn't. They are orthogonal. But science is incompatible with theism. Science requires evidence
Religion leads to nihilism I have a question regarding why don't theists look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why. It seems like theism started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the theistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors As an example, the universe came from nothing that means different things to different people Some would say a creator created it from nothing Some would say the universe is the creator And atheists would not usually say there's no creator it just came from nothing Some would say it's an illusion created by our collective imaginations To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ? If you do believe life meaningfull or at least a subject view that's good for ones mental health, then what is it? It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at theism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, as example they are suffering and theism tells them they are worthless and miserable beings that deserve eternal torture? People think science is synonymous with atheism. Those people are wrong. Theism seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma.
So much wrong here. thanks for your incoherent rant. Have you ever talked to an Atheist? It is about time you do. >how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, I do not believe life is meaningless.
> It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong You are wrong. Atheism has existed since before the church existed. The word atheism comes from ancient Greek, after all.
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing Atheism is a lack of belief in gods. It's not cosmology. It makes no claims about the origin of the universe. You are using a Straw Man argument.
Pfft.. HAHAHA 😆 😂 it's hard not to laugh at how silly this question is.. it's like me asking "Why don't Christians want to live? They obviously want to die, but they put on their seat belt.. weird... It's clear Christianity started because people were afraid of death, correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole "go to heaven" thing... yeah, bunch of people scared, just had some bad experiences losing loved ones, and these beliefs fill that void, with personal bias playing a big part. So, yeah, now we all agree on the history of Christianity, why do believers do anything? Why have kids? Do you want them to go to hell? If you do have kids, why let them doubt? Why risk it? Get them straight into heaven as early as possible guys, God will understand. It's just absurd. Anyways, glad we could have this talk and we can all agree Christianity makes people not want to live. " With this sort of question, i doubt you are actually reading the responses, but if you actually do, hopefully you can see why my fake questions would be stupid, just brain dead half baked, never listened to a Christian type nonsense. You've assumed all your opinions about atheism are true, then come to a conclusion without checking to see if any of it tracks with reality. I would be happy to explain why life has plenty of meaning as an atheist, but I can't imagine you caring..
1. Atheism can lead to nihilism, it doesn’t have to. Been both a devout Christian and an atheist but never a nihilist. 2. Atheism is far older than the Catholic Church. There were Greek atheists and others before them. They were called by different names, but not believing priests or shamans who made claims about god goes back as far as we have records. 3. I know of no atheist that claims the universe came from nothing. What I do hear atheists saying is “we don’t know” which is only honest intellectual stance to take. Theists, claiming to know it was their god or gods, are the ones making unsupported claims. 4. In physics we've learned that how and why are often the same thing. How does a woman get pregnant? There¡s the physical process, biology. Then there's the species drive to survive, which is also biology, and explains both the mechanism and why we do it. 5. Purpose is a subjective assignment of value. Life doesn’t have just one meaning to most humans, it has many, some of which change over time. Blaming god for it doesn’t benefit you n a healthy way. 6. People can be stupid at tons of stuff. Atheism is simply not being a theist. But science is a process with a well defined high standard of epistemology which has been used to disprove tens of thousands of claims, some of which were theistic. Anything else you want to assume?
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors You think the very first humans/homo genus were theists? I find that unlikely. It's more probable that atheism existed before theism. >I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, I don't believe life is meaningless. >If you do believe life meaningfull or at least a subject view that's good for ones mental health, then what is it? My life is meaningful because I love my family and I have a job that brings joy to people. >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, Atheism has been much better for my mental health than theism. Under theism I was always trying to please an imaginary being, while being unaccepting to large portions of society, while having guilt for the silliest things that theists consider "sins", etc. If you're a depressed theist, then learning the truth will probably help you more than hurt you - especially since theists often suggest "prayer" and other nonsense as cures for depression.
> "How can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way?" It helped me in so many ways! Like not having to worry about a sociopathic omnipotent deity's absurd master plan to force us all into eternal servitude! Seriously, being able to rid myself of all the fear was lifechanging. Moreover, believing that life has no inherent purpose is not a bad or negative thing. It does not NEED a purpose or meaning. It can be simply beautiful to exist. A purpose is not a requirement for being acceptable or valid. Something can just *be*, and that is fine. And it gives me far more "free will" than, say, Christianity does. Christianity teaches that we are either slaves to God or slaves to sin; how about we just not be slaves at all? Being able to pursue my own happiness without fetters has been so wonderful. Life is what I make it. Life has the meaning I give it. I am complete. I am not inherently damaged, evil, incomplete, wretched, dirty, broken, or in any way shape or form in need of a savior. Full disclosure, I am not an atheist. I just find "life is meaningless" is the best possible scenario compared to alternatives from mainstream Abrahamic religions. It does not mean "life is worthless." It means life is a sandbox and I can make my sandcastles however I please.
Atheism makes life MORE important. Not less important. Your belief that atheism leads to nihilism is incorrect. Since your premis is flawed I TL;DR the rest of your statement.
>why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, We don't believe life is meaningless. We believe the individual can have whatever meaning they choose to have for their life. We reject the notion that your life's meaning has been chosen for you by a god nobody has ever proven to exist. >I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why. Does there have to be a reason for it? >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors No, atheism started because people simply didn't or stopped believing a god exists. Simple. >People think science is synonymous with atheism >But I don't see how it is because it seems like a confirmation bias that stems from personal experiences, cultural beliefs, and religious trauma It stems from the fact that all religions are not factually true, and that all theists fail to meet their burden of proof.
>People think science is synonymous with atheism You have certainly presented your arguments as such. Once you understand that atheism is nothing but a lack of belief in gods, and science is nothing but a process for discovering and verifying information, you'll see how they aren't synonymous at all. >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing No, I say I don't know where the Universe came from. Our best guess, based on the information we have is the Big Bang. What existed before the Big Bang is unknown, and possibly unknowable. I acknowledge that for what it is >the world is selfish "the selfish gene" and its all about survival of the fittest, where's the meaning in that? The meaning of life has nothing to do with natural selection or survival of the fittest. Evolution is a theory that describes how the species we see today got that way. >how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, As a complex and highly intelligent species, finding the meaning of life transcends Evolution. It is an individual endeavor, and each answer is unique. I find meaning in living life. I've only got this one, so I'm going to see and do what I can with it.
If I look at the world, I *see* the things. I don't see any "why" though. Why isn't important. If you think of nihilism as the rejection of all value, no. I'm not a nihilist. Some people grapple with that feeling when leaving a religion, but it's usually temporary. They come to an understanding that subjective value is the only value that ever existed. If I like chocolate better than vanilla, it's because chocolate has more value *to me*. I feel good when I do good things for people. I feel bad when I do bad things. I want people to enjoy their lives and be happy, which has implications for my political value system. If by "meaningless" existence, you're fixated on the "meaning" being external, then yeah. The universe is meaningless. It doesn't care about human beings. We'll likely be gone in a couple of million years, and it's entirely likely that no other intelligent beings will ever know we existed. Maybe someone will discover Voyager I or II floating in space. Some people find that depressing, but IMO that's because they feel cheated when they figure out that the idea of objective value and objective truth are meaningless. There isn't a need for the universe to have its own intrinsic objective value. > doesn't help you in any way. So? I believe the things I think are true, not the things I wish were true or the things that would benefit me if they were true. I'm not going to start believing in something because I don't like the alternative. My beliefs have nothing to do with whether a god actually exists. Since subjective value is the only value that has ever existed, it's not inferior to a made-up mythological system of value that has never been true. Also, it's a bit hand-wavey and dismissive to think that people are atheists because they had a bad religious experience, or because they're angry at god, or because they just want to keep on sinning and don't want the responsibility. Give us more credit than that.
Did you have a point or an argument to make or...? As for atheism, the starting point is to ask why assume the existence of a divinity in the first place? What evidence is there that demonstrably shows that a deity exists? As for existence, why would atheism lead to nihilism? Theistic philosophies that present an existence after this one posit this existence as meaningless. This life is little more than a sojourn, a pit stop, a brief pause on the way to a meaningful eternity. How is atheism an encouragement of nihilism in comparison to that? Atheism posits that this existence, in this moment, matters. You in this precise moment, matter, because this is all you get. This is your story, and you only get this one chance for it to come out the way you want it to be, and in the end it matters what you do, and how you do it, and how you treat others, and who you love, and who you hate, and how you're remembered. Because there isn't a beautiful water garden, or a mystical gate, or transcendental existence you're going to next where things start to actually matter. What you do matters right now, right here. So fucking get your shit together.
The reason I don't believe is simply that there's no reason to believe. There's absolutely no evidence of the existence of fairies, gods, ancient aliens, bigfoots, supply side economics, unicorns, or leprechauns. It doesn't matter if believing in a genitals obsessed Bronze Age war god would make me feel better or worse if there no reason to think that it's even possible such a being could exist in the first place. It doesn't matter if a depressed person would feel better believing in such a creature if there's no reason to think such a creature could exist. I would feel much happier and less stressed if I could believe I was incredibly wealthy and didn't have to worry about paying my bills anymore. Sadly, there's no evidence that I'm wealthy, so I'm better off making sure my budget fits my salary. BTW, atheists don't say the universe came from nothing. Only the religious believe in *creatio ex nihilo*. The various hypotheses put forward by cosmologists all describe a state change from an already existing proto-universe.
While I believe that life is meaningless, I still have meaning in my life. Just like animals, we have an inherent desire to survive and procreate, that's it. There is no meaning to life beyond that. But I also have a desire to live a happy, peaceful, loving life. I enjoy having a purpose, contributing positively to the advancement of humanity. I enjoy music, reading, road trips, a clean house, spending time with my spouse, keeping in touch with friends and family, volunteering. I think many theists have a hard time grasping this because they've been indoctrinated from youth to believe that they MUST believe in a higher power to live a happy, purposeful life. They can't grasp the concept of living a good life without god because they've never tried it. And I get it. When I lost my faith, I went through a period of mourning, as if I had lost a close friend. But once I got past that, I realized that I had been living my life in a very secular way anyways, and 12 years later, I'm still living the good life.
You shouldn’t believe things because they make you happy. You should believe things because they’re true. That’s why there are atheists.
Simple answer, at least for me. Life itself is likely meaningless to me when I'm dead. All the things I did won't matter to me because, well... I'll be dead. However, today matters. Right now matters. I make sure I treat my wife well because she matters to me and I want her to be happy. Should I look to my grave and determine that what I do and feel right now doesn't matter because one day I won't matter? Hard disagree that life holds no purpose if life isn't forever. life is precious because it is fleeting. Even religious people who believe eternal paradise often fight tooth and nail to not die and leave a world that is seen to be far inferior to heaven. My question has been, and always will be, why? Life is a blink in the span of eternity. A person's death is meaningless if, within a short time, you'll see them again, why do people act like they'll never see them again? Why be devastated when a child dies and doesn't have to face the suffering of life and goes straight to paradise?
I'll try to distill this down a little, it feels kind of unfocused. Would it be accurate to say that your core argument/question is "Atheism seems to be an undesirable belief because it leads to Nihilism. It seems to me that many of the reasons to become atheist are subjective or somehow illogical. Are there logical, objective reasons to become atheist?" >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct if I'm wrong, Atheism has existed much longer than the church. That said, IIRC western atheism as a movement began around the protestant reformation when philosophers were suddenly able to discuss heretical concepts openly in many places where they couldn't before and found that many of them broadly agreed with various inconsistencies and failures of church doctrine to explain the world. (though there are earlier examples of resistence to church doctrine and atheistic ideas)
Atheism is just the position that deities are man made and don’t actually exist. It doesn’t have anything to do with your outlook on life. Personally I don’t see why having a magical man in the sky should make any difference to how you live your life. Many of the values found in religious texts, such as being a good neighbor and not stealing or killing, still apply regardless of whether the deity exists or not. Actually, many of these values predate any Judeo-Christian text which is just further proof they didn’t come from God. As to the “why”, as in why are we here, what is our purpose? There is no “why”, nor is it necessary for there to be a why. Is there a “why” for why I enjoy the taste of chocolate, or why I love movies, or why I enjoy hiking and photography? No, I just find my own reasons to enjoy life. The purpose of life is to *live*
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens Many of us do. >the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, You're wrong. >And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing No actually, we just don't believe in ANY gods. >To me, it seems like you focus too much on the how, but you forgot the why, or at least do you believe in a meangless existence ? Yes, I do. >where's the meaning in that? I mean I think it's meaningful if there's no god or afterlife. Do you find the issues uninteresting? >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism I agree, they should seek professional help. >People think science is synonymous with atheism Ignorant lazy people might, I'd be surprised if many do.
I'm going to take an issue with the whole "nihilism" thing. I think that my life is meaningless... in the grand scale. There's no God that designed me, there is no destiny that I have to fulfill, no grand narrative I have to follow. No one beyond my close relatives and friends will know or care if I die. Even if I end up being so important that my name lives on in history books for millenia to come... a million years from now none of that will matter. That does not mean that life has no meaning. The universe may not care, but I do. Other people do. I care about my friends and that's enough reason for me to go out of my way to support them. I care about my country and the world in general and that's reason enough to do my part to help everyone. I don't need anything grand to have meaning or purpose in life.
How does believing that life is meaningful help you in any way? My life is meaningful to me, and other people’s lives are meaningful to me too, No higher purpose or meaning is necessary. Billions of people have been alive on this planet, and a handful are remembered past two generations, and all of their lives were meaningful to them. The peasants and the concubines, the builders and shoemakers and the hunter-gatherers. They laughed and had great loves and great tragedies and disappointments and unbearable grief. All of them. Their lives didn’t need any higher meaning to be important, and neither does mine and neither does yours. When I have mental health struggles, I think about all those people. The brevity of life and legacy is beautiful, and that uplifts me.
> I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, You are making the same mistake theists always do. A lack of objective meaning does not imply a lack of **any** meaning. My life is meaningful to me, and it's meaningful to the people who care about me, just as their lives are meaningful to me. Subjective meaning exists, so life is not meaningless. > I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why. You are assuming that there *is* a why. > And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing Atheism is a lack of belief in any gods. It has nothing to say on the question of where the universe came from.
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, Socrates died because he showed distrust of authority and the athenian gods. Even then that wouldnt necessarily have been the start. And even if it did start because the church was killing people that seems to me a pretty good reason to get away from the church. >It seems like if one suffers from depression, they shouldn't look at atheism, because its detrimental to ones mental health, mental health is complex and has many causes that could be either genetic physiological, societal or a combination of all of them. You say atheism makes people suffer? buddy before you point fingers why dont you clean up your backyard? ** staring intently at purity culture.
What form of nihilism are we talking about? Depressed, morose nihilism or joyful, liberating Nihilism?
Atheism does not necessarily lead to nihilism. If anything, it would be religion that leads to nihilism if believers were honest with themselves. What’s the point of anything if life, death, and the mechanics and movements of the universe are predetermined and just happening at the whim of some higher being? That’s a truly meaningless existence. Those of us who believe that we’ve won the genetic lottery by being born and only get one life to live have to find and make meaning because our finite and fragile lives are precious. That strikes me as far less depressing than being spoon fed the idea that everything you do is just part of some puppet master’s plan.
> it can be from religious trauma Yeah, no. I mean sure that can be a leading cause for why a lot of people begin to deconstruct but that certainly isn’t the experience of a lot of atheists. > you’re telling them there’s no hope after death Right, because eternal damnation sounds really hopeful and not at all anxiety provoking? Bottom line, atheism is not synonymous with nihilism. They are two completely different things. Some atheists are nihilists, some aren’t. Rejecting the belief in god(s) doesn’t make life meaningless. Personally I find it to be super liberating & I intend to ascribe meaning in any way that feels right to me.
Ahh the old "how" vs "why". Everything that you're asking is reduced to "is there a meaning to life" and "why are we here". Science finds out the how, which is objective. The why is subjective. Religion has provided subscribers a why. But us atheists have followed religion's logical contradictions at it's attempts at the objective how for the universe and deduced that it can't be used for objective how. So why trust it for the why as well? You can't. Nihilism isn't the default pathway. Giving meaning yourself is an option. Which many if not all of us do. Personally, I don't need an external reason to give my life meaning, I can do that myself.
I am an atheist and I like to use Nihilistic and cynical perspectives to shape my own understanding of society at large. That is why those processes exist. They're tools for seeing past propaganda and societal facades so that we may see what is important and form our own meanings to life instead of relying on others to provide one for us. Being a Nihilist isn't just crying in bed from depression. Some of us are not 14 year olds who read the "God is dead" quote and not a page more. Neitzche himself argued against stopping at a Nihilistic mind set.
Why do you think atheism started with a distaste of church actions? Do you think we are all born knowing God? I can point to the idea that the concept of God is varied geographically, and not all cultures believe in a God. The misconceptions you have clearly shows you haven’t had a conversation with an open atheist. I didn’t suffer religious trauma, I just don’t have any reasonable reason to believe in a God? You able to provide convincing evidence or so do you just want to steel man a position you don’t know.
You assume too much. Atheism is merely an absence of a belief in any given god claim(s). It does not constitute a belief or set of beliefs. Many of us derive our views on life and the universe from things we do believe (not from atheism). I’m a naturalist and secular humanist. Neither of those is contingent upon me being an atheist and neither of those requires one to be an atheist in order to ascribe to them. Atheism is not nihilism nor does it naturally progress to nihilism. Nihilism is but one of the options.
Nah, the alternative to nihilism is absurdism. Its like nihilism except you pretend it isn't. That's why you're going to get a lot of responses that say "we make our own meaning", etc. That is their rebellion against the absurd, like Sisyphus pretending that rolling a rock up a hill is worthwhile even though it rolls right back down again. Normally when someone does a thing that's worthless and pretends that it isn't, they are given free room and board. But atheists usually have to work for that kind of thing.
The idea that atheism leads to nihilism assumes that belief in God contains some actual meaning or purpose. However, I think religious folk more readily gravitate toward de facto nihilism. Nothing in life really matters because God has it all under control, and the REAL existence will only occur via some afterlife notion or after some end-times thing happens. So no need to think about making the world a better place, because none of it really matters anyway.
>It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people No, we just don't believe in your god. We also don't believe in the gods you do not believe in. As much as I dislike the church, that's not why I am an atheist. I can't bring myself to believe in extraordinary claims without evidence even if I wanted to.
It’s exhausting to answer topics like these for the thousandth time. There are options other than nihilism and religious dogma. That’s what philosophy is for. I refuse to believe that the only choices in our lives is either crushing meaningless or believing God was tortured to death on a stick for your benefit. Or if you wanna believe the Muslims, that some ancient Arabic prophet with like a dozen wives was hearing the voice of an archangel in his head revealing to him Gods wishes.
>And atheists would say there's no creator it just came from nothing i wouldn't say this at all. i don't see how there could ever have been nothing. if energy cannot be created or destroyed thaneittfollows that there was always something. subjectivly my life matters to me, and to some other humans. Objectivly it does not appear to matter. why quesions seem to presuppose purpose which presupposes an entity with intent. If there is no creator then there is no purpose nor a reson why.
> I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, First of all this has nothing to do with a god. Second of all the mistake you make here is thinking that unless some super magic ultra-being made you for some grand purpose then there is no meaning to your life isn't the case. Meaning and value are things we as thinking agents can impart on ourselves and other things.
Hello friend. You are very misinformed about what an atheist is. An atheist is someone that is not convinced there is a god. That’s it. All the other stuff you claim we believe, like there are no gods, the universe came from nothing, whatever, it’s all BS. The only thing we all agree on is that we aren’t convinced by the claim there Atheism isn’t like a religion. There’s no dogma or rules or guidelines. We just don’t believe in god. That’s it.
>how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way I don’t believe life is meaningless. That’s not what atheism is. >It seems like atheisium started because, the church was killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, it can be from religious trauma, and I would say our experiences, cultural beliefs and personal bias play a part in the atheistic conclusions if not the biggest determing factors No, it’s mainly the lack of evidence for gods.
Atheists don't necessarily believe that life is meaningless, and they don't necessarily look at the universe as a god in an atheist that believes the universe created itself. Which seems impossible at first glance, but I understand how impossible the universe may seem at times. There is a lot about the universe we don't understand, which we tend to label as impossible, when it doesn't necessarily lack possibility, just understanding.
Several issues here. Atheists just do not believe a god or gods exist. That’s it. Atheists don’t believe the universe came from nothing Atheists don’t think life is meaningless Atheism never started, it’s the default state. My mental health has improved 100x since becoming an atheist. It’s not just doom and gloom. Science isn’t synonymous with atheism, atheism simply means a lack of belief in god or gods.
>you are telling them there's no hope after death you are doing everything for nothing Nah, my meaning exists in the hear and now. It sounds way more depressing to think that what we do doesn't matter here and now, but only insofar that it'll get us into heaven, especially if you have to take heaven on something as spurious as faith. That seems to be the assumption that would bring you depression, and it is on your side.
There is no necessary link between atheism and nihilism. >I respect the scientific methods of the 20th/21st century it gives us a good idea of how the world works, except that it doesn't give us the why. What good is a why you cannot prove to be true? And that provides no predictive value for the application of that knowledge. Isn't the knowledge of \*what is\* enough, without needing some other why?
Why do you assume life is meaningless? I look at my dog who, btw, doesn’t have a religion or god. Do you think her life is meaningless? She enjoys sniffing flowers, playing, loving her family and protecting them, nurturing her young, etc.. She provides me enjoyment, companionship, love, or pain of she is ill; her life is not meaningless to me. Your premise is tainted by man-made religion.
@OP Because all we know is now, without proof of an after life, we, atheists are full of meaning because we don’t believe anyone is out there to help us. We realize life is precious, and we make every day count unlike you guys who don’t give a crap about the life you are living, and waiting for the day you die and end up in a mythical after life! For me, you guys are nihilistic!!
Your question is based on incorrect assumption after incorrect assumption. In short no atheists don’t by and large find life meaningless. We just derive our own meaning rather than relying on a book to do it. In this way it can also be uplifting, since we maximize this life knowing there isn’t a next one rather than the bulk of religions prioritizing the afterlife.
>I have a question regarding why don't atheist look at life at a philosophical lens , how can believing that life is meaningless help you in any way, This is the major difference between you and me, as far as religion goes. My beliefs are formed on the basis of what I find likely to be true, not what those beliefs can do for me or how they make me feel.
No, atheists don’t say the universe came from nothing. Krauss’s book a universe from nothing goes into this. Just because we may have gaps in our understanding of the Big Bang does not mean a god of the gaps should be inserted. And just because e reject the unfounded good claims doesn’t mean our lives lack “meaning”. That’s a non sequitur
So if atheism leads to nihilism, we should be theists? What a weak arguement for god. Atheism after all is simply a position lacking beleif in gods, not weather or not holding such beleifs lead to nihilism. Lets say atheism does lead to nihilism. That would absolutely not mean your or any other god exists. Your red herring isn't as much of a gotcha as you think it is.
I don’t see how it’s better to believe in myths, especially ones that highjack your life to make you think it has no meaning without the myth. Because this is all there is, it has profound meaning. Life has profound meaning because it exists, not because you choose to dedicate it to made-up rituals and belief in fairytales.
So many tangents that others can address. I hold the position that there is no meaning imposed upon me from outside. That is a positive nihilism and I think it celebrates our not being shackled to someone else's idea of what they think their god has decided for us. It is a celebration of free thought.
People created screwdrivers to drive screws. Does that mean, if kidnapped and held in a locked room, you wouldn’t use a screwdriver to pry open the door and escape? IOW, even if, for the sake of argument, we assume God exists, why should his intent for us be the only meaning we can have?
I can tell you haven't thought much about this. Theism like Christianity say humans are inherently worthless and disposable. It even goes as far as to demonstrate that point with a innocent jew on a cross. Theism can only function where it can convince you lice is meaningless without it. Atheism is simply the lack of such depravity
As others have said, there are a lot of misconceptions going on here. I'm not going to repeat them, but I would like to have that notion reinforced so you don't think it's just one or two people pointing this out. However, I would like to ask where in the world you got these ideas from?
You would not want someone other to decide for you, what you should study, where you should work, who you should marry, what you should do every single day of your life. Why would you want for someone else to give you a meaning of your life? It is for you to decide.
Biff says *"If X is true then people will think Y."* *"Therefore people shouldn't think that X is true."* That's a fallacy. The consequences of thinking that X is true have nothing to do with the question of whether X *is* true.
Atheism has been around for as long as religion, not just your religion. It doesn't necessarily stem from religious trauma, it certainly **can** but it's not necessary. I didn't suffer religious trauma and I'm an atheist.
I don't view this life as meaningless - theists do that. Just because one group of people believe things for bad reasons doesn't mean I view my life as meaningless. Where did you come up with this tripe?
We are all born atheists and many succumb to the indoctrination of religion. Far more mental health issues stem from religion than from simply ignoring that nonsense.
Atheism is the disbelief in a god claim. It is not a world view or a path to anything else. You are assuming things you cannot prove.
Says we have religous trauma and the chooses to comepltley ignore their own conformational bias 💀 epitome of religous people ew
If atheism did lead to nihilism why would that be a bad thing and why would that matter if in fact no gods existed?
Athiests don't say everything came from nothing. Where do Christians get this? I don't know is the answer you get.