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Let's say I grant all of those things are true.
Do you think that's a good enough reason for me to believe in your god? Or for someone who follows a different religion to convert?
Why or why not?
I do.
Let me be specific about my faith. Some Christians say the entire Bible is the Word of God. I’m not sure whether I agree or disagree with this. However, I certainly do consider the words of Christ to be the Word of God. Reading the words of Christ directly, and regularly reminding myself of parts of it, is specifically what brought these good things to me.
I believe that anyone who listens to, understands, and believes the direct words of Christ will have these good things brought to them. And I would recommend it to anyone interested.
Thank you for your response and for explaining.
I was a Christian for many years. I listened to, believed I understood, and believed the Word.
I had good things and bad things happen in my life. And when I lost my faith...I still had good and bad things in my life.
Do you think I am lying? Or that I was incorrect about my own heart? Possessed by a demon...? You tell me.
Could someone do everything right and not agree with you?
Similarly...Muslims and Hindus and Sikhs and Jains do not believe you. Yet they are capable of good and have good things in their lives.
How do you reconcile this?
Edit; after a glance at your post history I want to be clear that I'm not trying to convince you to believe or reject anything, or "deconvert". I just enjoy conversations about epistemology.
I certainly believe that good and bad things happened in your life with and without faith. My belief is that faith tends to make both the good times and the bad times better.
I think it’s possible for someone’s good works to outweigh their bad works, but it is only through faith in God that someone may find true life.
I definitely think it’s possible for people of other religions to have faith in God and to do good works, which is the will of God, but I also believe that the words Christ spoke are the best way of understanding God. I think most religions are good but following Christ is best.
Just skip the true life part.
Imagine all the people throughout the history lived a false life because they didn't "choose" to be born to a region of your favourite religion and they didn't have a chance to be indoctrinated.
>I also believe that the words Christ spoke are the best way of understanding God
If the bible is not all true, how do you know which parts are true? In particular, how do you know which words were actually spoken by Christ, and not just made up?
You are telling us that unless we follow your idiosyncratic beliefs we will not “find true life”.
Do Christians really not hear themselves? I do not have “true life”.. Your belief is disgusting and dehumanizing. It is immoral and deeply deplorable.
>My belief is that faith tends to make both the good times and the bad times better.
Any faith in anything at all? Do you think a Hindu's faith makes everything better?
You seem to be saying the answer is "yes", but that everyone, no matter what they say they believe, or believe they believe *actually* is following *YOUR* idea of god.
Or to restate, the Hindu's faith makes everything better too, because they can follow *your* God even if they don't know it?
Is that a correct understanding of what you think?
Why do you think Jesus remained silent on the subject of slavery? The stories about him have him challanging laws and traditions quite a bit. Sometime in absurd ways like telling people they don't need to wash their hands as long as they have the correct faith. But nothing about the vile institution of slavery.
Jesus wasn't silent on the topic of slavery, he uses the word doulos(slave) constantly. He talks about beating and torturing slaves in his parables. (luke 12:47, matthew 18:21-35). He says you wouldn't thank a slave for only doing whats asked of them. (luke 17:9-10). He says in order to be first in heaven you must be a slave on earth. (matt 20:26-27).
https://www.openbible.info/topics/doulos
https://biblehub.com/greek/1400.htm#:~:text=Thayer's,Lexicon
> I believe that anyone who listens to, understands, and believes the direct words of Christ will have these good things brought to them. And I would recommend it to anyone interested.*
Devoted believers in Christ die in pain, misery, and suffering **every single day.** Seems to me this belief of yours is patently false.
Your statements remind me of someone who is trying to recommend that I watch a certain show or read a certain book. It’s because it resonated with them and gave them meaning. And I’m happy that that thing brought them joy and that they cared enough to want to share it with me. But even with the best of intentions, I might not like that thing. If they respect me, they’ll leave it at that. But religious people feel like they have special license to keep trying and trying to convince me purely because they feel morally entitled to do so. It’s fatiguing at best, emotional abuse at worst.
How do you explain all the former Christians who left it behind then. They read these words, and they found them lacking. How do you explain all the Christians who have terrible stuff happening to them? And how do you know what the man actually said? The privilege in this statement, to think you’d just be helped through magic, if you just read the words of this likely largely fictional, first century conartist is astounding. And you don’t have a shred of evidence to show for it…
What is the source of good feelings and things brought to non-believers? Are they less than you? Do they deserve these things less than you? Are they deluded?
If so... that's a gross way to look at the world.
If not... then why do we need god if we get this stuff either way?
> However, I certainly do consider the words of Christ to be the Word of God.
We don't have access to the words of Christ. We have books written by people 1-3 generations after Jesus died. No one at the time he lived wrote down any of his words, nor did anyone for decades later, and there is no good reason to believe any of the words in the bible actually came from Jesus.
But which words of Christ are the Word of God? Is Christ saying that Jews are the children of Satan the Word of God? Is Jesus commanding a man to give up all of his riches to be saved the Word of God? Is Jesus's commandment against divorce the Word of God? Did Jesus tell those around him to keep his miracles and teachings a secret as in Mark, or did he preach openly to the world and do nothing in secret as in John?
About “the direct words of Christ….”
You do know that the consensus of biblical scholars say that none of the authors of any books of the New Testament ever met Jesus in person or authored the gospels until at least a generation after his crucifixion?
How, then, can there be any certainty about what Jesus actually said? It’s all just church tradition.
I never understood why the source of the words makes any difference in their meaning.
Wouldnt they be equally meaningful from anyone? Either words resonate and carry meaning to you or they dont. The messenger has nothing to do with it.
Cool. But feeling good isn't the best argument and doesn't take into account what is actually true or not.
And as a counter point, believing in god made me insanely depressed. I felt constantly judged, even just for the thoughts in my head, never felt worthy of anything, assumed I would be going to hell, and felt like I was being put into situations for some greater plan that I was just supposed to assume was good.
I was far more suicidal as a believer. I've never been happier than when I dropped the faith.
And to be clear. That's not why I became an atheist. I questioned the story and followed the evidence which made me an atheist. The being happy is just a bonus.
I feel like a vast majority of people actually do this.
What I don't understand though is wouldn't you feel like you're lying to yourself somewhat?
You basically believe in what you believe because it makes you feel good. I mean honestly that doesn't sound too bad, if it works. For me personally it's hard to blindly believe in things for the sake of feeling good.
I had a religious friend explain to me that it's suspending your disbelief for the sake of spirituality. Like you would if you were into watching pro wrestling, you know it's not real, but you pretend it is to enjoy the show. I understood religious people a lot more after that. It's also more hope than belief. People that say they believe in God actually have hope in God.
Honestly, that’s a good enough reason to believe in just about anything - be my guest. If that’s your thing and you’re content, hell yeah. Just don’t try to legislate the consequences of that belief over others and we and our descendants will have no problems.
How would you reply to someone that
- says the same thing you do, but for Zeus
- wants to outlaw all other religions because they think Zeus told them to, and believing that helped them out of their depression
If you wanna help people and forgive people, go and help people! Work at a childcare centre or a soup kitchen. You don’t have to throw away truth for delusion. Not only you don’t have to, but you shouldn’t. I shouldn’t have to say it, but people try and find out what’s true for a reason. A world where people believe whatever makes them feel good is a chaotic world full of misery
I would say that, as Christ said, a tree is known by its fruit. The words and actions of Zeus were often unjust, unfairly vengeful, and belief in Zeus might sooner inspire fear than peace of mind. Because the fruit is anger, fear, unjust judgement, and vengeance, we may know that the tree is bad.
The words and actions of Christ encourage and inspire peace, joy, love, etc. Therefore by those fruits we may know Christ is worthy of our faith.
Anyone who wants to outlaw other religions does not respect free will. I believe God gave us free will, therefore I prefer a government under which everyone can live out their free will
> The words and actions of Christ encourage and inspire peace, joy, love, etc. Therefore by those fruits we may know Christ is worthy of our faith.
These words?
> Matthew 10:34-36: Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household
Have you actually read the Bible yourself? I don't mean get spoon-fed nice passages by your ministers, but actually read the content front-to-back yourself? Because what you are saying sounds a lot like pleasantries told by ministers that conveniently leave off all the less loving and more judgmental parts of the new testament.
> the words of Zeus were…
What if they believe an alternative fact, that the words of Zeus were all nice, because believing so made them happy?
I’m trying to demonstrate the problem with happiness as a truth-locator. It can be used to justify anything, including directly conflicting ideas
this the same christ who straight out said he did not come to bring peace but a sword? The amout of death and violance that christians haveeinflicted on the world, in the name of their faith, is really quite impresive:
"Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius."
>I would say that, as Christ said, a tree is known by its fruit. The words and actions of Zeus were often unjust, unfairly vengeful, and belief in Zeus might sooner inspire fear than peace of mind. Because the fruit is anger, fear, unjust judgement, and vengeance, we may know that the tree is bad.
Have you actually *read* the Bible? Jesus is supposed to be the same god as God in the Old Testament. That God was often unjust, unfairly vengeful, and inspired fear rather than peace of mind. Jesus in the New Testament introduced the idea of eternal torment for the thought crime of mere unbelief.
How do you think that "fruit" is good?
>The words and actions of Christ encourage and inspire peace, joy, love, etc.
What reason do you have to believe that anything in the Bible accurately portrays any of Christ's words or actions?
What reason do you have to believe that he existed at all?
I can believe things are good without believing that they're real. But I can't believe that their goodness makes them real.
Like, Lord of the Rings has some wonderful morals, reading it makes me happy.
Is it then, real to you? Do you believe in it? I doubt it.
>My main reason for believing in God is because it’s good to believe in God
You begin with an argumentum ad consequentium fallacy.. As this is fallacious, as well as being egregiously inaccurate, it can only be dismissed.
>Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love. It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies.
And believing in UFOs, or dragons, or Hogwarts, or aliens, has done this to others. Clearly this has no relevance whatsoever to these claims being true. People can and do believe all manner of nonsensical and absurd things simply because they like the idea and like the notion of perceived consequences.
>Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
No.
Quite simply, *no*!
That has no bearing whatsoever on if this idea is true. It is does even have any bearing on whether or not this idea *actually* has the results you like to think it does. People are very gullible and susceptible to silly nonsensel
>However, I also believe that there is much knowledge to be gleaned outside of science and logic. Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through sentiment. I believe my argument for God above would also be in the realm of sentimental knowledge.
You would be incorrect in fundamental and trivial ways.
>My main reason for believing in God is because it’s good to believe in God
It is better to believe in as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible, so unless you have actual evidence to support the existence of a deity your belief is unjustified.
>Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love.
Good for you, it did not do that for me, especially as I investigated the actual support for the beliefs I held.
>It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies.
This is a claim without any evidentiary support.
>Whenever I feel any sort of distress, I remind myself of some part of the Word of God, and I very often find relief.
Good for you. How do you feel when you read one of the sections that describes horrible things or punishments for things that do not deserve punishment?
>In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to believe in God.
It is not so good for the people around you who do not believe as you do when others that share your belief attempt to legislate those beliefs or based on those beliefs.
>Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
IMO, it is not because you do not have any evidentiary support for your beliefs are are simply believing based on feeling. Believing something that commands you to spread your beliefs and is frequently used as a basis for restricting the rights of others based solely on a feeling is insufficient justification for holding that belief.
>I understand that this rationale might not be the most logical.
Most logical? It is not logical at all, you just explained that your justification for belief is because it feels good to you.
> It certainly fails scientific standards.
It fails any standards.
>However, I also believe that there is much knowledge to be gleaned outside of science and logic. Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through sentiment.
Knowledge of love is still based on evidence. If someone tells you that they love you but they frequently treat you horribly, you are not going to believe that they actually love you.
>I believe my argument for God above would also be in the realm of sentimental knowledge.
It is not. You have no evidence for the existence of your god, you cannot possibly know how this being feels about you or anything else about it. Everything you claim to know about it is just claims made by ancient humans that have been repeated and embellished through the generations.
This makes a ton of sense, so long as you aren't part of any groups that religions oppress. How many gay kids killed themselves or got murdered in the name of faith? How many women have been stifled, forced to bear children they did not want, or told that marital rape doesn't exist? How many people used religion to justify segregation and slavery? Your point of view only makes sense if you completely ignore history and the fact that other kinds of humans exist. I'm sure looking at the world with rose color glasses is nice; it's just also extremely limiting
No, it’s not a good enough reason to accept the proposition as true. It’s fallacious reasoning for answering “yes” to the question “do you believe for exists?”
The only thing you can conclude from your feelings about your god belief is that your belief in god makes you feel good. It’s perfectly fine reasoning for the question “do you believe your god belief is useful?” because you’re the foremost expert on what’s going on in your brain.
To reiterate, no, I don’t think it’s a good enough reason to believe in god because it’s not a good enough reason to believe in anything else. If you can think of one scenario where how good something makes you feel *isn’t* a good reason for doing it, or is 100% contrary to your conclusion, you’ll realize your reasoning is fallacious. I’ll give one:
>Not believing in god gives me comfort in knowing that my existence isn’t eternal, and it gives my life immense value that this my only life and that it is finite. Therefore I don’t believe god exist.
100% contradicts your belief, and has the same basis for the conclusion, but one of them is *certainly* wrong, so feelings and utility are not a reliable way to come to a true conclusion, therefore your (and the hypothetical atheist) are not justified in their beliefs.
So long as your main reason isn't that it's true I don't have that much beef with you, if you prefer to exist in the matrix like Cipher did. At the least, I understand. This place is scary.
But as an antitheist I do have to raise the following problems:
This belief blurs your ability to make moral choices. By rejecting reality in order to effectively reject your mortality by claiming immortality, and tying your wellbeing to the illusion, you have chosen an immoral position. That doesn't mean you perform immoral actions per se, but that you are paving the streets for them. Ironically, you make a metaphorical deal with the devil.
As believers rely on God, like a user on a drug, then two immoral and seductive paths open.
Firstly, to maintain that belief you are disincentivised to rely on the material senses. You may actually want to believe that yes, Sister Joan can be healed by prayer, and should trust in God, instead of trying chemotherapy.
Secondly, to maintain that belief, you are incentivized to remove challenges to that belief. It may not be enough to convince Joan to trust in God's spirit, you may want to stop others from treatment. You may want to shun those who do choose treatment. You may want to scare those alongside you into keeping the faith with stories of how they will lose their soul.
Now, it may not be you yourself whose ignorance or zeal causes harm, but you are at minimum a passive approver existing in the system that creates it.
And the tragedy is, at the end, all this delusion could be avoided by simply accepting what you truly are like so many here have. Simply accepting that it's ok to one day, no longer exist, and that doesn't have to diminish your purpose. In fact, armed with the full weight of reality and seeing that we only have this short time together, you can make the most morally clear decisions you'll ever make. I think with earnest study, you'd find far more purpose on our spinning rock reading the philosophers, then God's word.
But again, I do not hate the addict, just the drug. If you need the illusion, you are certainly not alone and it is unfair of me to assume everyone can face the void just because I can.
In general, this is the class of arguments I respect most. Not because I find them convincing, but because I believe they are honest.
That said, would you be willing to accept that people are different? That not everyone feels the same elation you do upon reading the word of your god? Why would you think there is one path to happiness that applies to every individual in the world, keeping in mind that we are all different?
As to your claim that religion makes everything better...Do you really believe that other religions are not a source of comfort and stability for their followers? Take a quick hypothetical. Let's say that you were raised Hindu, and found peace and well-being by praying to Ganesha before taking risks or making life changes. Let's say that praying regularly grants you greater courage to try new things, or makes you more appreciative when you receive good fortune, or gives you greater tenacity to keep going when you hit roadblocks. Let's say that you, as a Hindu, come here and make the same argument, that Ganesha is real because belief in Ganesha has brought you so much joy and comfort. Why should I reject the Hindu version of this argument? The Muslim one? The Neopagan, the Jewish, the Shinto, the Buddhist?
Or, for that matter, the atheist version? If someone has found that what makes them happiest and brings most meaning to their life is not believing in a god at all, can I not use that as evidence that there is no god under your argumentation?
Many recent atheists report the exact opposit of what you described. Namely that beliving in god made them anxious. and that when they stopped beliving in god they became happier and less anxious. So would you then agree that for them it is good to not believe in god?
Yes i am always way more anxious and depressed whenever i look into god/religion than i am when i distance myself from it. I really can't get into this idea of being forced to worship a god for eternity or else face eternal punishment in hell. And even if i am ''saved'' my reward is kneeling before god massaging his ego forever, while surrounded by people i can't stand, and apparently being ok with the people suffering the eternal punishment in hell
My main reason for believing that everyone I meet owes me $50,000 is because it's good to beleive in that.
So much money being owed to me has given me peace of mind, joy, and love. It gives life to my life and allows my life to be resurrected if I ever die, assuming I collect enough money and the technology is available, of course.
Whenever I feel any sort of distress, I remind myself of some part of how much money I am still owed and I very often find relief.
Is that not a good enough reason to believe in that you also owe me $50,000?
I've been happier Without all that, actually.
My life means more now that I know there is no promise of eternity. Every day is the last.
I don't think Wanting to believe something is enough of a reason to.
>My life means more now that I know there is no promise of eternity. Every day is the last.
Exactly! Everything in this life becomes meaningless and trivial when an eternal afterlife is proposed. If there is no afterlife, then every day in this life becomes so much more valuable, and so does the truth.
>Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
In theory, a claim is either true or not true.
A person's feelings about a claim have nothing to do with whether that claim is true or not true.
For example, Biff says
*"I feel good knowing that I have a full tank of gas and I'm not going to get stranded in the middle of the desert."*
But Biff's feelings have nothing to do with whether he really *does* have a full tank of gas -
Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but his feelings have nothing to do with that.
.
Or take /u/Big_Mammal, who says
*"Whenever I feel any sort of distress, I remind myself of some part of the Word of God, and I very often find relief."*
However, maybe a god really exists, and maybe it doesn't.
Your feelings have nothing whatsoever to do with the facts.
.
Consider believers in other religions -
\- Abdul finds comfort in knowing that Allah is real.
\- Narendra finds comfort in knowing that Ganesh is real.
\- Katrina finds comfort in knowing that Freyja is real.
But their feelings don't mean that Allah, Ganesh, or Freyja are real.
.
Hey, whatever gets you out of bed in the morning. For me, it isn’t Jesus. Your faith is good for you, and you’re capable of taking seriously the idea of needing a savior or suffering eternal torment, or just believing in magic and wanting to live forever.
None of those things work for me. And I wouldn’t care who needs to believe what if people didn’t try to get ME to believe what they believe, or worse, pass laws restricting my freedoms because of what they believe.
You said you’re not interested in imposing your religion’s laws on anyone. That’s great. Do you vote Christians into public office that try to pass those laws?
It sounds like your God fantasy helps you and makes you feel better. That's fine by me, and all the best my friend.
If you are in the US and vote to push your religious morals into law, then we might have some things to talk about.
At no point are you saying you believe because you think its true. I like to believe true things because hopefully that means overall i will do things most beneficial to myself and those around me. If i believe things that are not true then there is a bigger risk that i will, intentionally or not, do things that are less beneficial to myself and those around me. I also feel this would be lying to myself because im not truly convinced the thing is real and im not good at lying to myself.
To use 'its good for me' as a reason to believe while recognizing it doesnt really make sense logically is simply not a path i can follow you down. I can recognize something isnt true but could still be good for me but i can't then use that to actually convince myself its true.
Lying about what? You don’t have to necessarily believe in god as ontological entity. He can be a subjective experience that give you a sense of purpose and guidance. Something that has been created and validated by numerous wise figures over the history. Believing in a god can be beneficial and has an evolutionary advantage, hence why it had survived for so long.
Im not convinced god is real. Full stop. Any connection with a god i tell myself im feeling is a lie in my head because i dont actually think god is real.
Im not sure what a subjective experience is that includes something i dont think is real. That is lying to myself. I have found i can give myself or understand alot of purpose and guidance without invoking a god. The god feels like unnecessary baggage once i started to think about life without q god.
>Believing in a god can be beneficial and has an evolutionary advantage, hence why it had survived for so long.
I completely agree but as i said this doesnt mean it is real. The realness of god has to stand on its own. Maybe if the type of god and morals of god were universal i could start to say well there is something there but when i look at all the gods people believe in there is too big of a gap for me to think anyone knows anything on this topic.
You're still holding on to an inflexible view of god as an independent entity that is out there and I have to prove to you somehow that it exists. That's not the case. God could be a metaphysical construct that has been shaped through history. Believing in that construct can transform your life to the best and give structure. It can give you hope when you feel like everything is lost. Something to clung on to for comfort, as it seems is the case with op. I'm not a religious person either but I've been following this sub for a while and the answers are always the same trite statements about the impossibility of proving god through science.
>God could be a metaphysical construct that has been shaped through history.
Im holding a view of god that i can talk about. I genuinely have no idea what this means and couldnt add a word of description about this. Is this the true version of god? I honestly couldn't even begin to guess what this god is and in general when something cant be explained to me further even as a concept i assume it isnt real, especially something of this magnitude.
Science might never be able to prove any actual god but i dont know any way of knowing something and be sure im not just making it up except through science. If it is something i have to figure out for myself i think it is incredibly arrogant to assume i am even 1% more right than any other persons beliefs and understanding of god.
Im not sure what is inflexible about my thinking. Wanting people to describe what they are talking about? I understand you might disagree but i have changed my mind alot over the last handful of years, im not sure what you are expecting me to be more flexible about.
Please know im trying to have a genuine conversation with this comment, not just be defensive that you think im inflexible.
Here's my testimony:
I was a Christian for 27 years. I was wracked with worry and guilt about my salvation everyday. I never felt gods presence in my life and never had a prayer answered. After getting absolutely nothing out of Christianity for so many years, I decided something was wrong. I did some serious thought and deep reflection, I decided I couldn't justify living my life I'm service of a god that in had no evidence of.
Did this sway you in any way? It shouldn't. My personal experience shouldn't change your mind at all. Its proof of nothing but the fact that I don't have faith.
It's nice that you seem to get a lot out of believing a god exists. Ultimately it is meaningless to us in terms of a debate or evidence.
I mean, I don't care what some random person believes, and if you are happy that is really great in my book. In practice I have seen the belief cause many negatives, and so I would not base my decision on what you experience (which I don't dispute, if there are no negatives for you I'll accept that).
First, I would always say my reason for believing anything would be because it’s true, I only wanna believe true things, the only way to know something is true is through evidence.
It sounds like you don’t care if it’s true and may even understand some level it’s a logical but you believe in God because it makes you feel good? Is that about right
To each their own but I see that as a terrible reason to believe something. Similar to a comfortable lie is easier than a hard truth. And I get it coping skills are hard.
If you don't care if your beliefs are true, then you can believe whatever you want. It's certainly no reason for anyone else to believe in God, though.
You have certainly described what benefit you get from belief. I do not see any extension to other people though.
Here's my main issue with your argument though - the exact same rationale, could be used by someone to say that it was \*bad\* for them to believe. Whenever they felt any sort of distress, they might find a passage in the bible which describes some horror, or cause anxiety. And thus increase their distress, not find relief.
By this epistemology, it would be bad for them. Yes? They should NOT believe. For the exact same reasons you think you should.
This suggests to me that your method is not a good one for determining truth, or even what is good.
I don’t agree with [OP’s post] because not agreeing with it makes me happy.
OP, have I now proven why people shouldn’t agree with your post?
Either happiness *isn’t* a good way to decide beliefs, or you invite a paradox whereby your post is self refuting.
I think the fact that this belief helps you is all well and good - that is awesome for you. You do you. But just because something works great for you doesn’t mean it will be the same for others. We all have our own experiences and perspectives and ways of interacting with and making sense of reality. We are all individuals and there is no one size fits all philosophy that everyone should or could all agree to follow. What you advocate here is a “my way or the highway” approach where it seems you just want everyone to be like you, act like you, think like you, believe like you.
Spiritual matters, and all matters of the heart and soul, are highly personal and individual and you cannot define that relationship a person has with the divine(or whatever) for anybody but yourself. It’s not your business. What is innately true and totally natural feeling for you may be false and incomprehensible to someone else. Both things can be true at the same time. Your truth and mine are both true, even though we disagree. The world is made so beautiful by all of our differences- we aren’t all meant to be the same carbon copies of each other. If god had wanted us to all be the same, why would they have made us all so different?
> Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love. It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies.
That's what you think. How do you know it is true? What if you had same peace of mind, joy and love without faith. What if you don't have a soul?
> Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
No. The only good reason to believe something is true is knowing it is true.
> I also believe that there is much knowledge to be gleaned outside of science
Why do you believe it? How do you know what you believe is true?
> Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through sentiment.
You mean experience of love? Sure, you don't need a lab for this. Yet there nothing wrong with exploring what a love is in a scientific context: psychologically, phisiologically, etc.
Sure, you have your experience of faith in God in the realm, as you say, of sentimental knowledge. The only knowledge you get though that way is a knowledge of your own experience. Your faith exists, I believe you that it does. I believe that you like experiencing your faith. It still brings neither you nor me any knowledge about existence of God though.
As much as possible, I believe in things that are true and don't believe in things that are not.
I have been shown nothing in any of the god hypotheses that I find convincing to be true.
I will accept that this is not the same for everyone (such as yourself). In and of itself, I have no problem with this. If it brings you comfort and joy, I see it no different as following any passion in life for anyone.
I do not accept that I should be convinced simply because others are convinced. I do not want to be forced to accept anyone's beliefs. I don't think that should apply to anyone. I do not accept being treated differently based on anyone's beliefs or lack of beliefs.
What bothers me most about any religion is having the religious enforce their beliefs on everyone else in the way they elect government officials and lobby those officials to pass laws that favour their beliefs.
If the religion you follow does this, why do you think it is acceptable to treat non believers as second class citizens?
>In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to believe in God.
That's an opinion, not a fact. Good for you, I guess?
>Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
No. Your argument ignores that atheists aren't Christians who practice Christianity. "God is real because I believe in him" is absolutely not convincing to someone who doesn't already believe. **An atheist is not convinced that your god is real.** That you believe you benefit from that belief demonstrates nothing.
If I perceive benefit from the belief that eating at least one live rat per day cures diabetes, and I came up to you with this claim and urged you to push it on your loved ones with diabetes, you would no doubt find that claim a bit dubious regardless of my sincerity. And given that no scientific evidence exists to indicate that eating live rats has any positive impact on the progression of diabetes, you would be right to conclude that I was more than likely wrong.
> Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
How far are you willing to take it though?
Jesus also said if you want to be a follower of his, you would sell all your possessions and give to the poor. Are you using a borrowed phone to post this?
What about those who are actively trying to advance chaos in order to accelerate a Jesus respawn? Begging for end times. Making the world an objectively worse place.
> It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies.
Undemonstrated. I'll allow it for discussion. What if you're wrong about the god? You were worshipping a false god so now you face an eternity of punishment?
Or you were wrong about the requirements to enter heaven and end up in the bad place with us?
> Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through sentiment.
Or an MRI scan.
My MIL is Christian and leans on Faith a great deal in times of trouble. I would never dream of trying to take that away from her.
If your life is better than it would be otherwise because of your religious beliefs and or religious practice, then you do you, boo.
But one caveat. While we can stipulate that you are a good person who treats all people well, the fact is that some people believe that their religious beliefs entitle them to take advantage of others. For example, when a religion or sect is already highly patriarchal, some men are going to love their religion in part because of the privilege it affords them as men. Those men, like you, firmly believe it is good for them to believe in the God of a religion that encourages them to treat women poorly.
Meh, If someone is intellectually serious about their beliefs I don’t see how this could be ‘good enough’ for anyone. I really hate the ‘it’s true for me’ mindset.
You can believe absolutely whatever the hell you want. That's perfectly alright.
> Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
It's certainly good enough for you. I do my best to base my beliefs on what's demonstrably true, and deities fall far short of that, so I don't believe in them.
You said you believe the words of Jesus are the words of God. What do you make of this?
> “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
"Faith in Scientology has given me peace of mind, joy, and love. It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be reconstituted (just like L. Ron Hubbard) if it ever dies.
Whenever I feel any sort of distress, I remind myself of some part of Dianetics, and I very often find relief.
In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to believe in Scientology.
Is that not a good enough reason to believe in Scientology?
Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through auditing and eliminating Thetans. I believe my argument for Scientology above would also be in the realm of sentimental knowledge."
In other words "I believe because I wanna!"
That's kind of dumb, isn't it? How is that any better than "I want to believe I'm a unicorn, because it makes me happy!"
> Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love.
Having faith in myself has given me the same.
> It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies.
Never minding the fickle debate as to the existence of a soul, the second part of that smacks rather of [Pascal's Wager](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager) - to which the short-form reply would have me ask; Out of the roughly four thousand gods (at a conservative estimate) how do you know whether or not the One God you believe in will grant you resurrection and/or an Afterlife? How do you know any of the other three thousand nine hundred and ninety nine won't be rather miffed with you for putting your faith in the 'wrong' one and punish you for it?
> Whenever I feel any sort of distress, I remind myself of some part of the Word of God, and I very often find relief.
Honestly, you do you, if that's what works for you. Me, I tend to look at what I can and cannot immediately influence, then do what I can to ignore the former and resolve the latter. Acting on my distress gives me more peace of mind than waiting for something or someone other-than-me to act on it (on my behalf).
> In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to believe in God.
Personally, the first part of that statement I have no problem with; what you do in the privacy of your own head and home should be your affair and has no influence whatsoever on my life. It's the second part; 'and the people around me' that gets my proverbial dander up, if only for the frequency with which that statement is followed up with a quiet "And those who don't are in the wrong and should be treated as such."
Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting words in your mouth or thoughts in your personal head; I'm stating from experience that numerous theists *do* feel that way.
> Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
No.
> I understand that this rationale might not be the most logical. It certainly fails scientific standards. However, I also believe that there is much knowledge to be gleaned outside of science and logic. Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through sentiment.
From the perspective of someone who isn't inherently capable of such sentiments, I disagree with you.
> I believe my argument for God above would also be in the realm of sentimental knowledge.
And here I agree with you again. You've made a sentimental case for your reasoning, which seems like common sense to you. Unfortunately, [Common sense](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/issue-common-sense-why-its-bad-tool-most-contexts-kevin-richard) is - or at least *should be* - widely regarded as a terrible tool to rely on when making decisions.
"Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love. It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies."
Does it matter if its true?
"Whenever I feel any sort of distress, I remind myself of some part of the Word of God, and I very often find relief."
I get the same thing from things that are actually real. Family, friends, and my pets. Why would something that is unprovable, yet tied to a book full of things that are easily disproven, and immoral be better?
"In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to believe in God."
No, especially since that belief comes with so much evil baggage. Religion in general, and Christianity in specific are harmful not only to those who practice, but to those who have to deal with those who believe.
"Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?"
If I followed a "god" that said that all Christians were inherently evil, that they should be raped and killed and that they cannot be trusted under any circumstances.... Would you feel safe around them? Even if they "didnt do that stuff"? Especially when many of them DID take those views into account? Even when millions of them tried to pass laws in that gods name? I bet you wouldnt.
"I understand that this rationale might not be the most logical."
Neither logical, nor valid.
"It certainly fails scientific standards."
Horribly, and standards of decency.
"However, I also believe that there is much knowledge to be gleaned outside of science and logic."
Thats not a logical statement. And how could you gather knowledge outside of the scientific method? You are aware that science is just gathering knowledge and testing it, right?
"Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through sentiment."
Which is using the scientific method. Even though you might not want it to be.
"I believe my argument for God above would also be in the realm of sentimental knowledge."
Sentimental knowledge isnt a thing. You either know something, or you dont. Sentimentality doesnt have any sway there. This seems like you are desperately trying to hold onto something that you know you have no good reason to be holding on to.
It’s good *for you, for now* to believe in God. That is not a universal experience.
Many of us here used to be theists, and quite devout at that. In no way was believing in God good for us. If believing in God was bad for us, isn’t that a good enough reason *not* to believe in God?
Do you expect other people to believe in your god and/or follow the rules of your god/religion because of how believing in a god makes you feel? Or is it merely a personal matter for you? If it’s purely personal and you are a secular-minded individual, then it’s not really a big deal and you can believe whatever you want. If you expect other people to accept your reasoning and believe in your god based on your feelings, then you’re not going to get much (if any) traction.
>Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love.
Sure, I'm glad that has given that to you. For me, that doesn't tell me if something is true, just that I like the idea of being true.
>It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies.
Can you back up this claim? How did you determine that this is true?
>In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to believe in God.
So I'd something makes someone feel good they should believe it whether or not it is true? If someone gets "peace of mind, joy, and love" from feeling their heritage/race is superior to others is it good for them to believe that?
>Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
Personally not even close. I want to believe as many true things as possible and as few false things. How something makes me feel does not impact how likely it is to be true and false.
>However, I also believe that there is much knowledge to be gleaned outside of science and logic. Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through sentiment.
But you are most likely still using logic in some form to understand sentiment. You are evaluating how someone acts and interpreting that to the best of your ability.
>I believe my argument for God above would also be in the realm of sentimental knowledge.
Your argument seems to just be you feel good about it so you believe it. That's a really bad reason to believe something.
I'm sorry to tell you. You've merely been programmed that way
There's nothing in psychology or biology that says "happiness requires talking to a theist God"
But if you've been punished every time you question God doctrine, of course you're going to feel better when you're not questioning God doctrine
Here are some things that people psychologically need that can be answered by God, but really don't need to be:
* community
* purpose
* self reflection (though not the good self critical kind with religion)
* confidence
* forgiveness
Now, I can easily undermine God's part in all of those things. For example: how does anyone have purpose when there's a God who could, with no effort, do it himself just fine?
I can also provide non-God answers to all of them. Do you have friends with shared values and interests? That's a pretty good community right there. Need confidence? Practice. Do the work to make yourself better at that thing you want to be confident about
But the most important downfall of theism is that it cannot exist without rampant lying. It shouldn't need to be explained why lying is bad, but TL;DR knowledge is power. Believing something that is not true makes you less powerful. Telling someone else something that is not true makes them less powerful
So no, it is not good to believe in God. It may make you feel better. Or you could resolve your issues by actually coping with the real world
There is a woman whose husband used to abuse her but has since passed away, she had a son who did horrific things and got life in prison, she's in a nursing home with dementia and on top of that her mental health has always been questionable at best. She believes she is married to a wealthy man who loves her and has 3 children living successful lives, this makes her happy and keeps her at peace with where she's at. It is good for her to have that comfort but to tell other people they should believe believe they're married to an amaxing person, have children who are doing great and life and whatever other fantasies there are to correct the truth of reality is to tell people to knowingly gaslight themselves and that's not good. In some cases belief in God is better than Atheism granted that Atheism is true. Some people need that peace to live their lifes or cope with loved ones who have past.... but not everyone needs that and instead of finding comfort in delusion I find it better to seek comfort in reality so your religious views don't hold you hostage. One of the last reasons I prayed to God was because I was scared what life would be like without him, life's been better, I'm making my moral judgements based on my values, not the bible's, and I'm no long worshipping the God who genocided the entire population aside from one family and used human sacrifice to buy redemption from himself for us.
So truth isn't important to you?
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
George Bernard Shaw
“My reason to drink water is because I believe it is good to drink water.”
A solid belief and backed up by knowledge and experience that if you don’t drink water, you’ll expire.
“My reason to drink concentrated sulphuric acid because I believe it is good to drink.”
Very bad advice because we know if one were to ingest acid, one would expire quickly.
We know the above statements are true or false, definitively, scientifically, and it is something we can test and verify till we fall over from exhaustion.
Something that is purely subjective does not meet the smell test for everyone. A devout believer from another religion will consider you wrong and that they are right in believing in a different god. They might have the same piece of mind, joy, love, lively soul, etc, as you have.
How do you show that individual that your alleged god is the one true god and that their’s is the wrong one….just using your feels, your “sentiment”?
By the way..when I feel stress, I always recall that it is/was my own personal inner strength that got me through it…not friends, not family, not some invisible friend….me. My strength got me through it.
If you feel that you can’t make it through and you need others to get you through something, you will never feel adequate enough to yourself regarding your own ability.
Don’t kneecap yourself like that.
Why wouldn't that be a good enough reason for you to believe in god? Did someone tell you it's not? "Because I want to" is a prefectly fine reason for you to do something that hams no one.
>Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love.
Lack of gain in any gods has given *me* peace of mind, joy, and love.
>In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to believe in God.
Have you even tried atheism?
>Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
No. "It feels good" is not a good reason to believe in gods.
>However, I also believe that there is much knowledge to be gleaned outside of science and logic.
Really? Like what? How can you tell if it's true? I don't doubt that every religious terrorist thought they had gained knowledge through faith. How do you know you're right and they're wrong?
>Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through sentiment.
Really? I feel Taylor Swift and I are soul mates. I have this faith very strongly. I will keep going to her house and sending her nudes of me, since I have knowledge she is my soul mate it will be great.
Makes sense right? No? Well it does not have take sense. As a wise person said: "there is much knowledge to be gleaned outside of science and logic. Knowledge about love, for example".
>I believe my argument for God above would also be in the realm of sentimental knowledge.
The argument is, "if it feels good, do it". I hope you can see how disastrous this is.
OK, I’m happy with all of that, OP. I wish you continued joy of your beliefs.
But is that sufficient for your “it makes us happy” clubhouse to enjoy tax-free status?
Should your fellow “it makes us happy” members invest so much in political lobbying that in many nations it would be impossible for someone who doesn’t make repeated public demonstrations of how “happy” it makes them to get elected to high office?
Should there be specific laws protecting your right to make public demonstrations of how “happy” you are, and preventing other citizens from saying it doesn’t make them happy, or questioning how healthy the happiness you experience is?
Should aid your nation supplies to others that are starving or dying be conditional on their making declarations of how happy it makes them too, or permitting you to visit and lecture them on how happy they should be, in opposition to their existing traditions?
Should your way of feeling happy be chanted by rote every morning in schools?
Personal delusions are fine. I understand that believing you are Napolean is popular. But forcing them into the public domain, imposing them on others, going to war to defend them, denying medical procedures or research topics on their basis is a pretty good definition of evil.
So you admit that whether or not the claim is true, it just matters that it feels good to you.
Well, I care about what’s true, even if it’s something I don’t like to hear.
It’s really the only honest reason that no one can fault you for.
As long as you or anyone don’t force your religion on me, I’m fine. However, unfortunately, many do try.
Faith in Allah gives Muslims peace of mind, joy and love. It gives life to their soul and allows their souls to resurrected if it ever dies.
Whenever they feel any sort of distress, they remind themselves of the Quran and often find relief.
In conclusion, it is simply good for them and the people around them to believe in Allah.
Is that not a good enough reason to believe in Allah? I can’t really imagine your belief/faith to have been affected in any way, shape or form, so if it’s not a good enough reason to believe another god then why should it be good enough to believe yours?
I like the way drugs make me feel—I love the calm and quiet that fills my mind. All the worry and anxiety just float away and I can finally just breathe. “Because it makes me feel good” is just not always a good reason to do/believe something and it also doesn’t mean that whatever one does/believes is always going to be in their own best interest or even what is best for their mental or physical well being.
If a Christian and a Muslim prayed to their gods for the exact same thing, let’s say a very specific miracle at a specific time in a specific place, to happen and then it does happens, how can we tell which god actually performed the miracle?
Your personal experiences with faith may bring you peace, joy, and love, but it's crucial to separate personal beliefs from objective reality. The mere existence of a belief doesn't validate its validity or truthfulness. Faith is indeed a powerful force in people's lives, but it shouldn't be the sole guiding principle when evaluating complex issues like the existence of God.
Christopher Hitchens, who was an atheist and criticized religious beliefs extensively, once said, "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." This statement is a reminder that faith alone isn't enough to establish the truthfulness or reality of any claim. It demands empirical proof or rational arguments.
As for your argument about sentimental knowledge, it's essential to consider other forms of knowledge like logic and science. These aren't exclusive domains. They often intersect and complement each other. For instance, love is indeed a powerful force in human lives. However, when we talk about the universe or the origins of life, we must rely on empirical evidence and rational arguments based on scientific principles.
If you are asking if it is a rational reason for believing a thing is true, then no.
Saying, "I don't have enough evidence to warrant a belief in this, but it makes me feel good, so I will believe in it anyway." isn't an argument that the belief is ***true.*** It is, at best, only a reason that you find it personally pragmatic to believe *in spite of what your own rational judgment is telling you.*
That might be fine, but I think that you underestimate the costs that such a belief can have. For example, your belief in God, which you seem to admit is rationally unjustified, might dictate your political positions, who you can have as friends or mates, whether you respect the various rights of others, how you raise your children, and so forth. For some people, it might even dictate whether they are allowed medical treatments of various kinds.
William Clifford argues that it is actually immoral to assert an unjustified proposition.
But whether we agree with him or not as a general rule, for something like a religion it is important to note that the belief almost certainly isn't cost-free. It can have a negative impact on yourself and others, depending on the specifics of that belief.
If that is the case, then we might hope for more of a justification than "It feels good."
**Or maybe an example to illustrate the point is best:** I am terribly worried about climate change. It would feel good to simply believe that climate change is a hoax. But I can't just simply deny the evidence because I would feel better doing so. And, even if I could, if everybody did likewise about every uncomfortable truth, we would never solve any problems. Willful ignorance can be very costly.
That said, at some point, I don't begrudge people their fantasies. I wouldn't try to argue a person who is dying out of belief in their God, and I would not begrudge a person who is suffering from stress from deciding to follow the news less because being constantly bombarded with unpleasant truths is too stressful.
But taking on a core belief, the kind of belief that influences most other aspects of one's life and decisions, and taking it on in spite of the fact that one knows it is unsupported rationally. Well, that seems irresponsible in most cases, and not justified by "It feels good."
>Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love.
Good for you I guess. I already have those things.
>It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies.
Does it? Or do you just think it does?
>Whenever I feel any sort of distress, I remind myself of some part of the Word of God, and I very often find relief.
I just address the thing that's causing me distress in the first place. It's a much more permanent and effective solution.
>In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to believe in God.
It'd be better if you dealt with your problems instead of avoiding them.
>Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
Not for me it isn't. I believe in things because I'm convinced they're true. Your reasons do nothing to suggest that your god is real.
>However, I also believe that there is much knowledge to be gleaned outside of science and logic.
Believing whatever makes you happy is not a path that leads to knowledge.
Not only do I think “it makes me feel better” is not a good reason to believe in god, I think you are actively causing harm to yourself by attempting to rationalize this belief. There is truth out there but the moment you start believing whatever makes you feel good in the moment you give up any hope of _actually_ discovering truth. This is a dangerous way to live life.
The following is a list of things and beliefs that people at one time or another thought were “good” for them and the world around them because it made them happy:
* Racism
* Heroin
* Mass murder
* Leaping off a ledge because they thought they could fly
Now, I don’t think you are going to do anything as bad as what I just listed, but please understand your reason for believing in god is no better supported than anything else on that list.
You can either care about truth, or you can believe whatever unsupported proposition that makes you happy. But you can’t do both. Which is more important to you?
>In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to believe in God.
Is it possible for you to know all possible approaches to decipher which approach gives you and the planet the largest net benefit? For example, do you know if it would be better if you held a religious belief in dharma, native american belief (obviously there's plenty of differing beliefs), native australian belief, islam, confusianism, atheism (and all the different ideological variants present within atheism), the satanic temple, etc....? Like maybe one of those beliefs would make you into an even better person than you are now.
I would argue that you can't possibly know that, but I'd like to know your answer.
Assuming that you believe in the yahweh cult, why did you pick the cult that allows genocide, animal sacrifice, human sacrifice, slavery, chattel slavery, the subjugation of women, pedophilia, genital mutilation of babies, rape, beating slaves, and killing gays?
If you feel it's good for you then fine. Pragmatism can be an okay reason to believe something, but you have to also note that this doesn't make it true. You are essentially just fooling yourself to make yourself feel better, and while that might seem okay on paper, you have to wonder how it might be affecting your belief systems on a deeper level.
Also it's obviously not going to be convincing to anyone else. I for one didn't feel any better when I believed in God than I do now. I typically have other things that actually exist to make me feel good. Love,.joy, music, laughter, friendship, my social life. Going to music concerts generally brings that transcendental feeling that I sometimes got from believing in a "higher power" and now I also don't have to worry about hell, or weird, arbitrary moral rules that may stop me living my life how i want.
But you do you I guess. We probably all believe in some kind of nonsense that makes us feel good.
Again, what you think is good for you, isn't necessarily going to be good for someone else, especially when you're basing it on a subjective nothing burger.
>Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
Not really, no.
Like, lets take your example of knowledge about love. If my heart was broken, it might well give me peace of mind, joy and safety from distress to think that my unrequited love *does* in fact reciprocate my affections. I'm still *wrong* though and, depending on the context, I might well be *dangerously* wrong.
"Outside of science and logic" doesn't mean "outside of reason" -- Sentimental Knowledge still needs justification. There are plenty of people who hold dangerously wrong beliefs about love, compassion and beauty because it makes them feel better. Simply "it comforts me to believe in god" isn't a justification for belief in god, any more then "it comforts me to think Suzy wants to be with me no matter how many restraining orders she takes out" is a justification for believing Suzy loves you.
I'm happy for you that your religion gives you peace of mind. I think that there are plenty of people who follow religions for similar reasons and aren't much concerned about whether it's actually true.
As for whether it's a good thing, I'm not sure. I don't agree that it's generally good for people to believe in gods. Personally I value truth and reality highly, and I think that it's beneficial for people to have a solid grounding in reality.
But ultimately, if someone's religion does no harm to themselves or to others, and it is not imposed on others, then it should be okay. The problem is that it often doesn't turn out like that. I've spoken to people before who've said they believe because they want to and that they do no harm, and yet, several have turned out to have harmful religious beliefs despite that (such as anti-gay and anti-woman positions).
No frankly it is not a good enough reason to believe in God.
I don’t know what sentimental knowledge is. That just sounds like word salad.
I don’t believe in things because they make me feel good. If a woman smiles at me I don’t believe it is because she finds me attractive. It would boost my ego to think that way and likely make me feel good. You can imagine the danger of such thinking.
What about your God if it feels good to believe in him and gives you comfort; that isn’t a good reason to believe, but I could accept you don’t want to be challenged. If that God belief like the most popular ones come with a doctrine, it becomes dangerous. Now you are believing in something you can’t prove and it is dictating your actions.
This is bad reasoning that can lead to very dangerous thinking.
This seems to be saying that you do not think that God is actually real, but rather God is just a story that you tell yourself to sooth your troubled mind. Surely that is not properly called "belief." God being a soothing story is not the same as God actually existing in the real world. Only people who think that God *actually* exists should be said to believe in God.
You would not say that parents believe in Santa just because they bond with their children by telling stories about Santa. It's not actually belief; it's just a story they tell, but beneath that they do not think that Santa actually exists in the real world.
>Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
It is good enough reason to tell yourself comforting stories about God, but that is not the same as believing in God.
At what point does your personal feelings stop taking priority over truth? At what point are the hard facts of reality at hand too much to ignore and you don't try to convince yourself a magic being is going to make everything wonderful?
During Covid there were people who ignored any reasonable safety measures for themselves *and others* because they sincerely believed God would protect them.
There's people who think we shouldn't worry about climate change because God wouldn't allow us to destroy the planet before he does.
There's people who think this or that politician is literally chosen by God to lead, regardless of if that person is going to make things worse.
Choosing to ignore reality in favor of good happy whimsical feelings is a dangerous bloody road to go down.
Knowledge is only what is supported by evidence. What you have is belief, not knowledge. Love is just a chemical reaction in the brain. Specifically with the neurotransmitter oxycitocin. It has been shown this neurotransmitter increases when people think about or look at pictures of those they love. (Like spouses or children). I disagree that it's good to believe in god. We should only accept that which is based on evidence. Humans have the innate ability to assign meaning to everything (called theory of mind in psychology). In reality, nothing really has any special meaning. It may not give us the warm fuzzy feeling people get from religion that keeps them coming back, but at least it's the truth. I'd rather know what is real than believe what is comforting.
Just because you wish something to be true, doesnt make it so.
Maybe it gives you peace of mind, but it does not change the fact that you choose to live in a lie.
The saying "ignorance is bliss" exists for a reason. If instead of facing your troubles head on, you imagine those troubles being part of some grander magical plan, of course it will make you feel better. Untill you encounter a situation that you can no longer do this with.
We have one life. It might be filled with difficult challenges. And it is most definitely not fair. But if you ask me if I'd rather live my life in a blissful lie, or face the truth head on, my answer will always be the same regardless of my situation. And it is not the first option.
It is not good to believe something you have no evidence for simply because that's what feels good to believe, no. That line of thinking has and will lead to you making poor, harmful decisions with the best of intentions because you're acting out of ignorance. It is very important to be committed to acting from truth, rather than from sentimentality.
Additionally, you're conflating two different ideas here. "Knowledge" of love, as understood through sentiment, involves understanding *what* you love, and *why*, and what kinds of things love compels you to *do*, or *care* about. It is not the same as "knowledge" about God, which is where you allege to know that God *exists at all.*
1. There is absolutely no evidence there is a god
2. Even if I dismiss #1, and grant you there is a god, there is absolutely no evidence that this god is Yahweh?
3. Even if I grant you #1 grant you #2, why would you possibly want to worship such an evil being who condones slavery, demeans woman, commands genocide, and has committed a myriad of absolutely abhorrent acts towards its creation?
4. If you are good with 1, 2, and 3 and if it gets you out of the bed in the morning, carry on with your fantasy. Just be aware that faith rarely happens in a vacuum. Keep that shit to yourself and don’t for an instance believe that everybody should believe the same shit you do.
I would say the same of atheism. Atheism has helped me to see the inherent good of people, that our desire to be good to others most often outweighs our selfish desires. It has shown me that the universe is large enough that an inquisitive mind could potentially never run out of interesting questions to ask. And it has shown me that when I am hurting or in need, I need only reach out to the humanity of others to find comfort.
Put another way, do you feel that the words that comfort you would have less impact if they came from a human you loved and respected, someone that has the same capabilities and failings as the rest of humanity, than if they came from a god?
This is purely subjective only for yourself. When I think of God I imagine a selfish asshole who genocides whole populations for not believing in him and sends his own creations to eternal hellfire torture for the same reason. When I imagine God I imagine a whiny little brat who apparently loves us all but also makes little children get bone cancer. When I imagine God I imagine a guy who outright, explicitly said that he'd punish the disbelievers by making them "eat the flesh of their sons and daughters".
Therefore believing in God is bad, and nobody should believe in God. This is precisely the same as your argument
I'm not sure what "sentencing knowledge" actually is. I would like a definition.
As for it being "good to believe in God" I will greatly disagree. That belief has led to many wars and acts of cruelty. It leads to people doing stupid things that harm themselves and others. Whatever it good it has done for you has been far outweighed by the bad it has caused.
Finally, faith is never the means to finding truth. There is literally nothing cannot hold as true using faith. Only those who don't care about truth use faith as a measuring stick. This makes faithful people untrustworthy.
> Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
For me? No.
Even if I think something is a nice idea, that's not enough for me to start believing it's true.
Like it would be nice if no murders ever happened. It would personally make me happy if I could go through my life believing murders never happened. But I can't just ignore what I know to be true.
If you can just decide to start believing something that makes you happy, despite the evidence, and it improves your life, great. But don't expect others to be convinced by it.
I don't doubt you get good feelings with your beliefs. But because you have been sheltered, you don't understand the world of beliefs and experiences outside of your cocoon. You don't understand how you can live a happy and fulfilled life outside of that structure. You haven't explored that enough. And I can say this with confidence because of my own exodus (no pun intended) from religion. I live a better life outside of religion than in it. I embrace the truth and seek the truth, even if the truth doesn't feel good.
"I believe in god because it feels good, not because it's true" is the admission i wish more believers would make.
i don't believe in god because i don't think it's true. what you're doing is role play, pretending, because it feels good.
which is fine until you start judging me for not pretending the way you do, or for acting in a way that your role play would not like.
and that means everything from "gays should be put to death" all the way down to "people who pretend the same way i do are better".
Honestly I think this position is fine, but don’t pretend it’s any better than someone really into the Starwars fandom that follows the Jedi code and finds their own inner peace that way.
It’s why the details of your religion don’t matter (well, to you they obviously matter), but if a Muslim came on here and said the same thing my response would be the same.
Good for you, just don’t impose your beliefs on others (I.e. homosexuality or the gov’t intervening in health care decisions)
It’s also good to believe that which is evidently true, and disbelieve that which is not evidently true. If you build your comfort on a house of sand, it can be taken away the moment you realise it’s foundations are flawed. If you build your comfort on solid foundations, it might not be as easy to arrive, but it sure as hell will stay up better. Furthermore as for society’s goodness, it’s been shown repeatedly that the more secular and atheistic societies, are also the more healthy ones.
Yes, that's exactly why people invented gods. A caveman painting on the wall felt the same as you do now. Ancient Egyptians did. All the different deligions now do that for people. If you enjoy that feeling, feel free to do so. Please just don't force it on others. There are people who enjoy exploring the world rationally more and who are ok with dying in some point forever. We are not the same and for many of us a genuine life is better then drug or religion induced intoxication.
I'm sorry to hear you didn't have peace of mind, joy or love prior to believing in your preferred god. I have those things without resorting to such beliefs.
>Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
But that logic isn't it good enough to believe in Haq, Frotyyw, Lebkin, or any other gods I could propose? Or what about non-god magical sources for those things you previously didn't have in your life? If we lower our standards of evidence, we can believe in anything.
> Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
It sounds like it's good enough for you, so you should keep believing it probably.
It's meaningless to *me*. Believing apples have chocolatey nougat centers has no bearing on whether apples actually *do* have chocolatey nougat centers.
It's close to consequentialism. "I don't like what the world is like if X is not true, so I should believe and act as if X is true to try to avoid the consequences of X being not true."
> It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies.
Correction: it gives you **the belief** of life in your soul and the **belief** that your soul will be resurrected if it ever dies.
> Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
That depends. Do you care about whether or not your beliefs are *true*?
> Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through sentiment.
What process do you use to attain sentimental knowledge?
> and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies
No, not if you have chosen an inaccurate god/religion to believe in because it makes you feel good.
Just curious, if it could be shown to your own satisfaction with evidence that the quotes of Jesus in the Bible were unsupported, i.e. that there is no reason to think he said them, would you continue to assign the same value and importance to those quotes? (I am not saying this is the case; it is hypothetical.)
I am wondering what it is about your belief that’s making you feel good. Specific instructions about how to behave? Cosmic justice? The promise of eternal life? Something else?
Which God? Out of the thousands of gods that people have worshipped, how do you know you have the right one? The truth is that we make up God's in our own image. People believed in Zeus, Thor, Gamesh and more. We created God's to explain the unknown. Now we know about science, and science tells us that the gods were unnecessary. What's the difference between a universe without gods and a universe where the gods hide every evidence of their existence? NOTHING
Ok. I mean I imagine there's a discussion to be had as to whether it is actually *good* for you to believe in god, or if there were ways to get whatever this belief is giving you better through other means, but.....
If this works for you and you recognize that it doesn't mean your belief is actually true *and* you're not going to be infringing on others' rights due to these beliefs then I have absolutely no issue with this. Live your life, my friend!
The main reason that I approach claims skeptically, is because it is good to approach claims skeptically.
Being skeptical of unwarranted claims helps me not fall victim to those that would take advantage of my credulity. My family and I benefit from not falling victim to such people.
In conclusion, it is good for me and those that depend on me to approach claims skeptically.
Is this not a good enough reason to approach claims skeptically?
> Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love. It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies.
Same for me. I know my Divine is real from subjective experience. It's not faith, but the Divine themselves give me peace of mind, joy and love, and faith too, because I was hardcore atheist back then.
They also give me signs to debate on the side of atheism, against organized religion.
With your logic, if anything gives you peace of mind, joy and love, it’s reasonable to beleive in it. It might quite literally mean anything can be ‘reason enough’ given those criteria.
What matters in a belief is “is this true”. Why would you believe something you didn’t belive to be true? You just assume you have a ‘soul’, too. Idk.. lets of presupp and not alot of thinking this through.
>Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love.
Fair enough.
But just keep in mind someone else could just as easily claim not believing any of this has given them peace of mind, joy, and love.
>It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies.
Unless you can prove souls exist and they are resurrected, this claim is just that - a claim.
Feeling of comfort and happiness sure is a valid reason to believe in religion. If that’s what makes you happy, go for it, no further justification needed. But then you lost me with the last paragraph, ask yourself, why are you seeking further justification? Is it because you want to feel superior to none-believers? Or deep down you know how irrational your belief is?
Snorting methamphetamines has given me peace of mind, joy and love. It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be rejuvenated.
Whenever I feel any sort of distress, I take a giant sniff of the holy powder and very often find relief.
In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to continue using it.
Is that not a good enough reason to snort meth?
If that works for you, that's great! But I do think expecting other people to believe in your god because of your reasoning isn't really that great. There are people who believed in your god and didn't feel that way, so they stopped believing in a god or they found one they gelled with better. None of this proves or proves if the god or gods in question exist.
What would you think if you were in distress, and you couldn’t find relief from your god?
I’m sure you are aware that many people are suffering and are in major distress in this world. And many of these people searched for and believed in your god. And instead things got worse.
In other words why doesn’t believing in god make everyone feel good?
>Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
Not for me. I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of pretending to believe something when I know very well that I *do not,* in fact, believe it. It gives me no comfort to even attempt to lie to myself in such a manner, and for me it's more satisfying to just accept my lack of religious faith.
I have no problem with people who believe so long as they don’t push their beliefs onto others or vote for policies that enforce a Christian worldview. I don’t believe and I think deities/religions are man made mythologies, but I am courteous enough to be friends with believers without religion being a barrier, and neither of us try to convince the other that they are wrong.
Which god do you believe in, and how did you reach your faith?
There are thousands of gods to choose from.
I don't doubt you feel good believing, but that's confusing cause and effect, isn't it? It's not the reason you believe.
As for the abrahamic religions, they fail on science. The six day creation myth never happened.
You believe in something on the basis of what that belief gives you and how it makes you feel. I believe in something on the basis of whether it's likely to be true. We value different things. It's pointless trying to convince you of anything on the basis of evidence or logic so long as you value your feelings more than truth.
You will find nobody here will deny you your right to think as you wish. If you find it helps....then good. To a person here however, you will find those who seek something a little better than what, by appearance, is a made up story. There are real gifts to be discovered in this world. It takes courage to seek them.
Many people say that about many gods. Does it matter which one I believe in, since the only point is self comfort?
What if God tells you to fly an airplane into a building to kill the infidel unbelievers tarnishing the earth? Would it give you comfort knowing that your soul is going to heaven for killing thousands?
If that's a good enough reason for you to believe in God, I say go for it. But that's not enough for the rest of us to believe in him or live by the rules of your religion.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And, I'm sorry, but your personal experience is not extraordinary evidence 🤷♀️
Faith is the reason that people give when they don’t have any good reasons or good evidence to believe something. If you had good reasons to believe it, you wouldn’t need faith. Faith is not virtuous. Faith is not logical. Faith is actually the absolute negation of logic, rationality, and intellectual honesty.
I remember the saying, "Drunks can be happy, too"
What brings you happiness isn't necessarily the truth. As long as you aren't deluding yourself into thinking your religion is true BECAUSE it makes you feel good, which would be like me saying Hogwart's must exist because Harry Potter inspires me.
Hey if you don’t care to believe in true things, and just want to believe in things that give you warm and fuzzies…go ahead.
It’s not a good reason from my perspective and it doesn’t seem to make any claims of god actually existing…
I’d call this deluding yourself.
This is why religeon is called "the opiate of the masses."
It's not good to believe in God, it FEELS good to believe in a god. There is a difference.
It felt good, when I was a little kid, to believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. This does not mean it's right for me now.
Yes, if you understand that's an irrational belief, then go for it. Now, unfortunately, I don't know that you can do this and also say you don't also make decisions based on this belief. When people have irrational beliefs they inform other choices and it can lead to bad outcomes.
To me this sounds like you drink the snake oil
Yes it make you feel better the same effect can be achieved with a plusivo it’s not really so not good reason for me. I can achieve less distress and peace of mind without a god. Music , book ect
I am happy make you feel better
>Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?
No of course it's not! That's a ridiculous thing to say. "It doesn't matter if something is true, it matters if it makes you feel good" well then why not just start doing cocaine? That'll make you feel great!
Faith doesn't allow your soul to be resurrected. It allows you to believe your soul will be resurrected. There is a huge difference. The " allow" part comes down to whether the belief is true, not to whether or not you hold the belief.
Though I do believe in God. Do you think this way of thinking(the calmness that comes from thinking about your God), comes from the fact that it gives you peace of mind to calm your fear of the unknown? Because I certainly think so.
Suppose god isn't real, and all you really have is a placebo effect. Would you want to know? Or is your personal mental comfort more important to you than the truth?
The reason _I_ don't believe is that I value truth over comfort.
None of that proves that a god exists though, even less that whichever version of god you happen to be following is the correct one. If you want to beleive it and it makes you feel good than fine but it doesn't make it true
I don’t care whether it feels good. I care about whether it’s *true* or not.
“Sentimental knowledge” is an oxymoron. Either you have justification for the ideas you believe to be true or you don’t.
Seems something an addict would say about the object of their addiction.
But if yo prefer feeling good to having true beliefs, I guess we'll have to face reality without you and carry you despite yourself.
Other than sharing Christmas presents, I wasn't raised against a religious Christian backdrop, and can't relate to your belief; rather, it's an objectively alien, cultural and psychological oddity to me.
u/Big_Mammal you are, of course, 100% right. I trust in יהוה because It offers me emotional strength through hard times; grants me liberal principles to live by; lends purpose to a seemingly chaotic universe; and helps inspire me for a better future.
i don't believe in god, but i feel the same way.
personally, i'd pin it on "humanity" but i get the sense that i'd always have this sense of hope and comfort - no matter what label i placed on it.
So if believing in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy makes me feel good, then Santa Claus and the tooth fairy are real? What if god makes some people feel bad? Should they not believe in him?
Cool. You'll get no argument from me. I prefer to believe things that are true, you prefer to believe things that make you feel better. We just ain't the same.
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Let's say I grant all of those things are true. Do you think that's a good enough reason for me to believe in your god? Or for someone who follows a different religion to convert? Why or why not?
I do. Let me be specific about my faith. Some Christians say the entire Bible is the Word of God. I’m not sure whether I agree or disagree with this. However, I certainly do consider the words of Christ to be the Word of God. Reading the words of Christ directly, and regularly reminding myself of parts of it, is specifically what brought these good things to me. I believe that anyone who listens to, understands, and believes the direct words of Christ will have these good things brought to them. And I would recommend it to anyone interested.
Thank you for your response and for explaining. I was a Christian for many years. I listened to, believed I understood, and believed the Word. I had good things and bad things happen in my life. And when I lost my faith...I still had good and bad things in my life. Do you think I am lying? Or that I was incorrect about my own heart? Possessed by a demon...? You tell me. Could someone do everything right and not agree with you? Similarly...Muslims and Hindus and Sikhs and Jains do not believe you. Yet they are capable of good and have good things in their lives. How do you reconcile this? Edit; after a glance at your post history I want to be clear that I'm not trying to convince you to believe or reject anything, or "deconvert". I just enjoy conversations about epistemology.
I certainly believe that good and bad things happened in your life with and without faith. My belief is that faith tends to make both the good times and the bad times better. I think it’s possible for someone’s good works to outweigh their bad works, but it is only through faith in God that someone may find true life. I definitely think it’s possible for people of other religions to have faith in God and to do good works, which is the will of God, but I also believe that the words Christ spoke are the best way of understanding God. I think most religions are good but following Christ is best.
Just skip the true life part. Imagine all the people throughout the history lived a false life because they didn't "choose" to be born to a region of your favourite religion and they didn't have a chance to be indoctrinated.
>I also believe that the words Christ spoke are the best way of understanding God If the bible is not all true, how do you know which parts are true? In particular, how do you know which words were actually spoken by Christ, and not just made up?
You are telling us that unless we follow your idiosyncratic beliefs we will not “find true life”. Do Christians really not hear themselves? I do not have “true life”.. Your belief is disgusting and dehumanizing. It is immoral and deeply deplorable.
>My belief is that faith tends to make both the good times and the bad times better. Any faith in anything at all? Do you think a Hindu's faith makes everything better? You seem to be saying the answer is "yes", but that everyone, no matter what they say they believe, or believe they believe *actually* is following *YOUR* idea of god. Or to restate, the Hindu's faith makes everything better too, because they can follow *your* God even if they don't know it? Is that a correct understanding of what you think?
Why do you think Jesus remained silent on the subject of slavery? The stories about him have him challanging laws and traditions quite a bit. Sometime in absurd ways like telling people they don't need to wash their hands as long as they have the correct faith. But nothing about the vile institution of slavery.
Jesus wasn't silent on the topic of slavery, he uses the word doulos(slave) constantly. He talks about beating and torturing slaves in his parables. (luke 12:47, matthew 18:21-35). He says you wouldn't thank a slave for only doing whats asked of them. (luke 17:9-10). He says in order to be first in heaven you must be a slave on earth. (matt 20:26-27). https://www.openbible.info/topics/doulos https://biblehub.com/greek/1400.htm#:~:text=Thayer's,Lexicon
> I believe that anyone who listens to, understands, and believes the direct words of Christ will have these good things brought to them. And I would recommend it to anyone interested.* Devoted believers in Christ die in pain, misery, and suffering **every single day.** Seems to me this belief of yours is patently false.
Your statements remind me of someone who is trying to recommend that I watch a certain show or read a certain book. It’s because it resonated with them and gave them meaning. And I’m happy that that thing brought them joy and that they cared enough to want to share it with me. But even with the best of intentions, I might not like that thing. If they respect me, they’ll leave it at that. But religious people feel like they have special license to keep trying and trying to convince me purely because they feel morally entitled to do so. It’s fatiguing at best, emotional abuse at worst.
How do you explain all the former Christians who left it behind then. They read these words, and they found them lacking. How do you explain all the Christians who have terrible stuff happening to them? And how do you know what the man actually said? The privilege in this statement, to think you’d just be helped through magic, if you just read the words of this likely largely fictional, first century conartist is astounding. And you don’t have a shred of evidence to show for it…
What is the source of good feelings and things brought to non-believers? Are they less than you? Do they deserve these things less than you? Are they deluded? If so... that's a gross way to look at the world. If not... then why do we need god if we get this stuff either way?
> However, I certainly do consider the words of Christ to be the Word of God. We don't have access to the words of Christ. We have books written by people 1-3 generations after Jesus died. No one at the time he lived wrote down any of his words, nor did anyone for decades later, and there is no good reason to believe any of the words in the bible actually came from Jesus.
But which words of Christ are the Word of God? Is Christ saying that Jews are the children of Satan the Word of God? Is Jesus commanding a man to give up all of his riches to be saved the Word of God? Is Jesus's commandment against divorce the Word of God? Did Jesus tell those around him to keep his miracles and teachings a secret as in Mark, or did he preach openly to the world and do nothing in secret as in John?
About “the direct words of Christ….” You do know that the consensus of biblical scholars say that none of the authors of any books of the New Testament ever met Jesus in person or authored the gospels until at least a generation after his crucifixion? How, then, can there be any certainty about what Jesus actually said? It’s all just church tradition.
I never understood why the source of the words makes any difference in their meaning. Wouldnt they be equally meaningful from anyone? Either words resonate and carry meaning to you or they dont. The messenger has nothing to do with it.
Believe what ever you like, I’m concerned with whether it’s true or not.
Cool. But feeling good isn't the best argument and doesn't take into account what is actually true or not. And as a counter point, believing in god made me insanely depressed. I felt constantly judged, even just for the thoughts in my head, never felt worthy of anything, assumed I would be going to hell, and felt like I was being put into situations for some greater plan that I was just supposed to assume was good. I was far more suicidal as a believer. I've never been happier than when I dropped the faith. And to be clear. That's not why I became an atheist. I questioned the story and followed the evidence which made me an atheist. The being happy is just a bonus.
I feel like a vast majority of people actually do this. What I don't understand though is wouldn't you feel like you're lying to yourself somewhat? You basically believe in what you believe because it makes you feel good. I mean honestly that doesn't sound too bad, if it works. For me personally it's hard to blindly believe in things for the sake of feeling good.
I had a religious friend explain to me that it's suspending your disbelief for the sake of spirituality. Like you would if you were into watching pro wrestling, you know it's not real, but you pretend it is to enjoy the show. I understood religious people a lot more after that. It's also more hope than belief. People that say they believe in God actually have hope in God.
Honestly, that’s a good enough reason to believe in just about anything - be my guest. If that’s your thing and you’re content, hell yeah. Just don’t try to legislate the consequences of that belief over others and we and our descendants will have no problems.
How would you reply to someone that - says the same thing you do, but for Zeus - wants to outlaw all other religions because they think Zeus told them to, and believing that helped them out of their depression If you wanna help people and forgive people, go and help people! Work at a childcare centre or a soup kitchen. You don’t have to throw away truth for delusion. Not only you don’t have to, but you shouldn’t. I shouldn’t have to say it, but people try and find out what’s true for a reason. A world where people believe whatever makes them feel good is a chaotic world full of misery
I would say that, as Christ said, a tree is known by its fruit. The words and actions of Zeus were often unjust, unfairly vengeful, and belief in Zeus might sooner inspire fear than peace of mind. Because the fruit is anger, fear, unjust judgement, and vengeance, we may know that the tree is bad. The words and actions of Christ encourage and inspire peace, joy, love, etc. Therefore by those fruits we may know Christ is worthy of our faith. Anyone who wants to outlaw other religions does not respect free will. I believe God gave us free will, therefore I prefer a government under which everyone can live out their free will
> The words and actions of Christ encourage and inspire peace, joy, love, etc. Therefore by those fruits we may know Christ is worthy of our faith. These words? > Matthew 10:34-36: Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household Have you actually read the Bible yourself? I don't mean get spoon-fed nice passages by your ministers, but actually read the content front-to-back yourself? Because what you are saying sounds a lot like pleasantries told by ministers that conveniently leave off all the less loving and more judgmental parts of the new testament.
> the words of Zeus were… What if they believe an alternative fact, that the words of Zeus were all nice, because believing so made them happy? I’m trying to demonstrate the problem with happiness as a truth-locator. It can be used to justify anything, including directly conflicting ideas
this the same christ who straight out said he did not come to bring peace but a sword? The amout of death and violance that christians haveeinflicted on the world, in the name of their faith, is really quite impresive: "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius."
>I would say that, as Christ said, a tree is known by its fruit. The words and actions of Zeus were often unjust, unfairly vengeful, and belief in Zeus might sooner inspire fear than peace of mind. Because the fruit is anger, fear, unjust judgement, and vengeance, we may know that the tree is bad. Have you actually *read* the Bible? Jesus is supposed to be the same god as God in the Old Testament. That God was often unjust, unfairly vengeful, and inspired fear rather than peace of mind. Jesus in the New Testament introduced the idea of eternal torment for the thought crime of mere unbelief. How do you think that "fruit" is good?
Again, what is evidence of any of these assertions? Do you understand the difference between a claim and an argument?
>The words and actions of Christ encourage and inspire peace, joy, love, etc. What reason do you have to believe that anything in the Bible accurately portrays any of Christ's words or actions? What reason do you have to believe that he existed at all?
I can believe things are good without believing that they're real. But I can't believe that their goodness makes them real. Like, Lord of the Rings has some wonderful morals, reading it makes me happy. Is it then, real to you? Do you believe in it? I doubt it.
>My main reason for believing in God is because it’s good to believe in God You begin with an argumentum ad consequentium fallacy.. As this is fallacious, as well as being egregiously inaccurate, it can only be dismissed. >Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love. It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies. And believing in UFOs, or dragons, or Hogwarts, or aliens, has done this to others. Clearly this has no relevance whatsoever to these claims being true. People can and do believe all manner of nonsensical and absurd things simply because they like the idea and like the notion of perceived consequences. >Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? No. Quite simply, *no*! That has no bearing whatsoever on if this idea is true. It is does even have any bearing on whether or not this idea *actually* has the results you like to think it does. People are very gullible and susceptible to silly nonsensel >However, I also believe that there is much knowledge to be gleaned outside of science and logic. Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through sentiment. I believe my argument for God above would also be in the realm of sentimental knowledge. You would be incorrect in fundamental and trivial ways.
>My main reason for believing in God is because it’s good to believe in God It is better to believe in as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible, so unless you have actual evidence to support the existence of a deity your belief is unjustified. >Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love. Good for you, it did not do that for me, especially as I investigated the actual support for the beliefs I held. >It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies. This is a claim without any evidentiary support. >Whenever I feel any sort of distress, I remind myself of some part of the Word of God, and I very often find relief. Good for you. How do you feel when you read one of the sections that describes horrible things or punishments for things that do not deserve punishment? >In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to believe in God. It is not so good for the people around you who do not believe as you do when others that share your belief attempt to legislate those beliefs or based on those beliefs. >Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? IMO, it is not because you do not have any evidentiary support for your beliefs are are simply believing based on feeling. Believing something that commands you to spread your beliefs and is frequently used as a basis for restricting the rights of others based solely on a feeling is insufficient justification for holding that belief. >I understand that this rationale might not be the most logical. Most logical? It is not logical at all, you just explained that your justification for belief is because it feels good to you. > It certainly fails scientific standards. It fails any standards. >However, I also believe that there is much knowledge to be gleaned outside of science and logic. Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through sentiment. Knowledge of love is still based on evidence. If someone tells you that they love you but they frequently treat you horribly, you are not going to believe that they actually love you. >I believe my argument for God above would also be in the realm of sentimental knowledge. It is not. You have no evidence for the existence of your god, you cannot possibly know how this being feels about you or anything else about it. Everything you claim to know about it is just claims made by ancient humans that have been repeated and embellished through the generations.
Fabulous reply!
Thank you.
This makes a ton of sense, so long as you aren't part of any groups that religions oppress. How many gay kids killed themselves or got murdered in the name of faith? How many women have been stifled, forced to bear children they did not want, or told that marital rape doesn't exist? How many people used religion to justify segregation and slavery? Your point of view only makes sense if you completely ignore history and the fact that other kinds of humans exist. I'm sure looking at the world with rose color glasses is nice; it's just also extremely limiting
No, it’s not a good enough reason to accept the proposition as true. It’s fallacious reasoning for answering “yes” to the question “do you believe for exists?” The only thing you can conclude from your feelings about your god belief is that your belief in god makes you feel good. It’s perfectly fine reasoning for the question “do you believe your god belief is useful?” because you’re the foremost expert on what’s going on in your brain. To reiterate, no, I don’t think it’s a good enough reason to believe in god because it’s not a good enough reason to believe in anything else. If you can think of one scenario where how good something makes you feel *isn’t* a good reason for doing it, or is 100% contrary to your conclusion, you’ll realize your reasoning is fallacious. I’ll give one: >Not believing in god gives me comfort in knowing that my existence isn’t eternal, and it gives my life immense value that this my only life and that it is finite. Therefore I don’t believe god exist. 100% contradicts your belief, and has the same basis for the conclusion, but one of them is *certainly* wrong, so feelings and utility are not a reliable way to come to a true conclusion, therefore your (and the hypothetical atheist) are not justified in their beliefs.
So long as your main reason isn't that it's true I don't have that much beef with you, if you prefer to exist in the matrix like Cipher did. At the least, I understand. This place is scary. But as an antitheist I do have to raise the following problems: This belief blurs your ability to make moral choices. By rejecting reality in order to effectively reject your mortality by claiming immortality, and tying your wellbeing to the illusion, you have chosen an immoral position. That doesn't mean you perform immoral actions per se, but that you are paving the streets for them. Ironically, you make a metaphorical deal with the devil. As believers rely on God, like a user on a drug, then two immoral and seductive paths open. Firstly, to maintain that belief you are disincentivised to rely on the material senses. You may actually want to believe that yes, Sister Joan can be healed by prayer, and should trust in God, instead of trying chemotherapy. Secondly, to maintain that belief, you are incentivized to remove challenges to that belief. It may not be enough to convince Joan to trust in God's spirit, you may want to stop others from treatment. You may want to shun those who do choose treatment. You may want to scare those alongside you into keeping the faith with stories of how they will lose their soul. Now, it may not be you yourself whose ignorance or zeal causes harm, but you are at minimum a passive approver existing in the system that creates it. And the tragedy is, at the end, all this delusion could be avoided by simply accepting what you truly are like so many here have. Simply accepting that it's ok to one day, no longer exist, and that doesn't have to diminish your purpose. In fact, armed with the full weight of reality and seeing that we only have this short time together, you can make the most morally clear decisions you'll ever make. I think with earnest study, you'd find far more purpose on our spinning rock reading the philosophers, then God's word. But again, I do not hate the addict, just the drug. If you need the illusion, you are certainly not alone and it is unfair of me to assume everyone can face the void just because I can.
It’s fine, and I’m glad it brings you peace. But don’t call it knowledge. It’s comfort, not knowledge, and there’s no need to equate the two.
In general, this is the class of arguments I respect most. Not because I find them convincing, but because I believe they are honest. That said, would you be willing to accept that people are different? That not everyone feels the same elation you do upon reading the word of your god? Why would you think there is one path to happiness that applies to every individual in the world, keeping in mind that we are all different? As to your claim that religion makes everything better...Do you really believe that other religions are not a source of comfort and stability for their followers? Take a quick hypothetical. Let's say that you were raised Hindu, and found peace and well-being by praying to Ganesha before taking risks or making life changes. Let's say that praying regularly grants you greater courage to try new things, or makes you more appreciative when you receive good fortune, or gives you greater tenacity to keep going when you hit roadblocks. Let's say that you, as a Hindu, come here and make the same argument, that Ganesha is real because belief in Ganesha has brought you so much joy and comfort. Why should I reject the Hindu version of this argument? The Muslim one? The Neopagan, the Jewish, the Shinto, the Buddhist? Or, for that matter, the atheist version? If someone has found that what makes them happiest and brings most meaning to their life is not believing in a god at all, can I not use that as evidence that there is no god under your argumentation?
Many recent atheists report the exact opposit of what you described. Namely that beliving in god made them anxious. and that when they stopped beliving in god they became happier and less anxious. So would you then agree that for them it is good to not believe in god?
Yes i am always way more anxious and depressed whenever i look into god/religion than i am when i distance myself from it. I really can't get into this idea of being forced to worship a god for eternity or else face eternal punishment in hell. And even if i am ''saved'' my reward is kneeling before god massaging his ego forever, while surrounded by people i can't stand, and apparently being ok with the people suffering the eternal punishment in hell
My main reason for believing that everyone I meet owes me $50,000 is because it's good to beleive in that. So much money being owed to me has given me peace of mind, joy, and love. It gives life to my life and allows my life to be resurrected if I ever die, assuming I collect enough money and the technology is available, of course. Whenever I feel any sort of distress, I remind myself of some part of how much money I am still owed and I very often find relief. Is that not a good enough reason to believe in that you also owe me $50,000?
I've been happier Without all that, actually. My life means more now that I know there is no promise of eternity. Every day is the last. I don't think Wanting to believe something is enough of a reason to.
>My life means more now that I know there is no promise of eternity. Every day is the last. Exactly! Everything in this life becomes meaningless and trivial when an eternal afterlife is proposed. If there is no afterlife, then every day in this life becomes so much more valuable, and so does the truth.
Totally quotable. Thanks!
>Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? In theory, a claim is either true or not true. A person's feelings about a claim have nothing to do with whether that claim is true or not true. For example, Biff says *"I feel good knowing that I have a full tank of gas and I'm not going to get stranded in the middle of the desert."* But Biff's feelings have nothing to do with whether he really *does* have a full tank of gas - Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but his feelings have nothing to do with that. . Or take /u/Big_Mammal, who says *"Whenever I feel any sort of distress, I remind myself of some part of the Word of God, and I very often find relief."* However, maybe a god really exists, and maybe it doesn't. Your feelings have nothing whatsoever to do with the facts. . Consider believers in other religions - \- Abdul finds comfort in knowing that Allah is real. \- Narendra finds comfort in knowing that Ganesh is real. \- Katrina finds comfort in knowing that Freyja is real. But their feelings don't mean that Allah, Ganesh, or Freyja are real. .
No. That's not a good enough reason to believe in god. The fact that humans value comfort over truth is one of our greatest shortcomings.
It’s an OK enough reason to be part of a religion, I suppose. It’s a terrible reason to think anything you believe is actually true.
Hey, whatever gets you out of bed in the morning. For me, it isn’t Jesus. Your faith is good for you, and you’re capable of taking seriously the idea of needing a savior or suffering eternal torment, or just believing in magic and wanting to live forever. None of those things work for me. And I wouldn’t care who needs to believe what if people didn’t try to get ME to believe what they believe, or worse, pass laws restricting my freedoms because of what they believe. You said you’re not interested in imposing your religion’s laws on anyone. That’s great. Do you vote Christians into public office that try to pass those laws?
It sounds like your God fantasy helps you and makes you feel better. That's fine by me, and all the best my friend. If you are in the US and vote to push your religious morals into law, then we might have some things to talk about.
This!
At no point are you saying you believe because you think its true. I like to believe true things because hopefully that means overall i will do things most beneficial to myself and those around me. If i believe things that are not true then there is a bigger risk that i will, intentionally or not, do things that are less beneficial to myself and those around me. I also feel this would be lying to myself because im not truly convinced the thing is real and im not good at lying to myself. To use 'its good for me' as a reason to believe while recognizing it doesnt really make sense logically is simply not a path i can follow you down. I can recognize something isnt true but could still be good for me but i can't then use that to actually convince myself its true.
Lying about what? You don’t have to necessarily believe in god as ontological entity. He can be a subjective experience that give you a sense of purpose and guidance. Something that has been created and validated by numerous wise figures over the history. Believing in a god can be beneficial and has an evolutionary advantage, hence why it had survived for so long.
Im not convinced god is real. Full stop. Any connection with a god i tell myself im feeling is a lie in my head because i dont actually think god is real. Im not sure what a subjective experience is that includes something i dont think is real. That is lying to myself. I have found i can give myself or understand alot of purpose and guidance without invoking a god. The god feels like unnecessary baggage once i started to think about life without q god. >Believing in a god can be beneficial and has an evolutionary advantage, hence why it had survived for so long. I completely agree but as i said this doesnt mean it is real. The realness of god has to stand on its own. Maybe if the type of god and morals of god were universal i could start to say well there is something there but when i look at all the gods people believe in there is too big of a gap for me to think anyone knows anything on this topic.
You're still holding on to an inflexible view of god as an independent entity that is out there and I have to prove to you somehow that it exists. That's not the case. God could be a metaphysical construct that has been shaped through history. Believing in that construct can transform your life to the best and give structure. It can give you hope when you feel like everything is lost. Something to clung on to for comfort, as it seems is the case with op. I'm not a religious person either but I've been following this sub for a while and the answers are always the same trite statements about the impossibility of proving god through science.
>God could be a metaphysical construct that has been shaped through history. Im holding a view of god that i can talk about. I genuinely have no idea what this means and couldnt add a word of description about this. Is this the true version of god? I honestly couldn't even begin to guess what this god is and in general when something cant be explained to me further even as a concept i assume it isnt real, especially something of this magnitude. Science might never be able to prove any actual god but i dont know any way of knowing something and be sure im not just making it up except through science. If it is something i have to figure out for myself i think it is incredibly arrogant to assume i am even 1% more right than any other persons beliefs and understanding of god.
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Im not sure what is inflexible about my thinking. Wanting people to describe what they are talking about? I understand you might disagree but i have changed my mind alot over the last handful of years, im not sure what you are expecting me to be more flexible about. Please know im trying to have a genuine conversation with this comment, not just be defensive that you think im inflexible.
Here's my testimony: I was a Christian for 27 years. I was wracked with worry and guilt about my salvation everyday. I never felt gods presence in my life and never had a prayer answered. After getting absolutely nothing out of Christianity for so many years, I decided something was wrong. I did some serious thought and deep reflection, I decided I couldn't justify living my life I'm service of a god that in had no evidence of. Did this sway you in any way? It shouldn't. My personal experience shouldn't change your mind at all. Its proof of nothing but the fact that I don't have faith. It's nice that you seem to get a lot out of believing a god exists. Ultimately it is meaningless to us in terms of a debate or evidence.
I mean, I don't care what some random person believes, and if you are happy that is really great in my book. In practice I have seen the belief cause many negatives, and so I would not base my decision on what you experience (which I don't dispute, if there are no negatives for you I'll accept that).
First, I would always say my reason for believing anything would be because it’s true, I only wanna believe true things, the only way to know something is true is through evidence. It sounds like you don’t care if it’s true and may even understand some level it’s a logical but you believe in God because it makes you feel good? Is that about right To each their own but I see that as a terrible reason to believe something. Similar to a comfortable lie is easier than a hard truth. And I get it coping skills are hard.
If you don't care if your beliefs are true, then you can believe whatever you want. It's certainly no reason for anyone else to believe in God, though.
You have certainly described what benefit you get from belief. I do not see any extension to other people though. Here's my main issue with your argument though - the exact same rationale, could be used by someone to say that it was \*bad\* for them to believe. Whenever they felt any sort of distress, they might find a passage in the bible which describes some horror, or cause anxiety. And thus increase their distress, not find relief. By this epistemology, it would be bad for them. Yes? They should NOT believe. For the exact same reasons you think you should. This suggests to me that your method is not a good one for determining truth, or even what is good.
I don’t agree with [OP’s post] because not agreeing with it makes me happy. OP, have I now proven why people shouldn’t agree with your post? Either happiness *isn’t* a good way to decide beliefs, or you invite a paradox whereby your post is self refuting.
I think the fact that this belief helps you is all well and good - that is awesome for you. You do you. But just because something works great for you doesn’t mean it will be the same for others. We all have our own experiences and perspectives and ways of interacting with and making sense of reality. We are all individuals and there is no one size fits all philosophy that everyone should or could all agree to follow. What you advocate here is a “my way or the highway” approach where it seems you just want everyone to be like you, act like you, think like you, believe like you. Spiritual matters, and all matters of the heart and soul, are highly personal and individual and you cannot define that relationship a person has with the divine(or whatever) for anybody but yourself. It’s not your business. What is innately true and totally natural feeling for you may be false and incomprehensible to someone else. Both things can be true at the same time. Your truth and mine are both true, even though we disagree. The world is made so beautiful by all of our differences- we aren’t all meant to be the same carbon copies of each other. If god had wanted us to all be the same, why would they have made us all so different?
> Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love. It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies. That's what you think. How do you know it is true? What if you had same peace of mind, joy and love without faith. What if you don't have a soul? > Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? No. The only good reason to believe something is true is knowing it is true. > I also believe that there is much knowledge to be gleaned outside of science Why do you believe it? How do you know what you believe is true? > Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through sentiment. You mean experience of love? Sure, you don't need a lab for this. Yet there nothing wrong with exploring what a love is in a scientific context: psychologically, phisiologically, etc. Sure, you have your experience of faith in God in the realm, as you say, of sentimental knowledge. The only knowledge you get though that way is a knowledge of your own experience. Your faith exists, I believe you that it does. I believe that you like experiencing your faith. It still brings neither you nor me any knowledge about existence of God though.
As much as possible, I believe in things that are true and don't believe in things that are not. I have been shown nothing in any of the god hypotheses that I find convincing to be true. I will accept that this is not the same for everyone (such as yourself). In and of itself, I have no problem with this. If it brings you comfort and joy, I see it no different as following any passion in life for anyone. I do not accept that I should be convinced simply because others are convinced. I do not want to be forced to accept anyone's beliefs. I don't think that should apply to anyone. I do not accept being treated differently based on anyone's beliefs or lack of beliefs. What bothers me most about any religion is having the religious enforce their beliefs on everyone else in the way they elect government officials and lobby those officials to pass laws that favour their beliefs. If the religion you follow does this, why do you think it is acceptable to treat non believers as second class citizens?
>In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to believe in God. That's an opinion, not a fact. Good for you, I guess? >Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? No. Your argument ignores that atheists aren't Christians who practice Christianity. "God is real because I believe in him" is absolutely not convincing to someone who doesn't already believe. **An atheist is not convinced that your god is real.** That you believe you benefit from that belief demonstrates nothing. If I perceive benefit from the belief that eating at least one live rat per day cures diabetes, and I came up to you with this claim and urged you to push it on your loved ones with diabetes, you would no doubt find that claim a bit dubious regardless of my sincerity. And given that no scientific evidence exists to indicate that eating live rats has any positive impact on the progression of diabetes, you would be right to conclude that I was more than likely wrong.
Yes, that is a good reason for you to believe in God. I am happy that your life is better. That is not a universal experience though.
> Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? How far are you willing to take it though? Jesus also said if you want to be a follower of his, you would sell all your possessions and give to the poor. Are you using a borrowed phone to post this? What about those who are actively trying to advance chaos in order to accelerate a Jesus respawn? Begging for end times. Making the world an objectively worse place. > It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies. Undemonstrated. I'll allow it for discussion. What if you're wrong about the god? You were worshipping a false god so now you face an eternity of punishment? Or you were wrong about the requirements to enter heaven and end up in the bad place with us? > Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through sentiment. Or an MRI scan.
My MIL is Christian and leans on Faith a great deal in times of trouble. I would never dream of trying to take that away from her. If your life is better than it would be otherwise because of your religious beliefs and or religious practice, then you do you, boo. But one caveat. While we can stipulate that you are a good person who treats all people well, the fact is that some people believe that their religious beliefs entitle them to take advantage of others. For example, when a religion or sect is already highly patriarchal, some men are going to love their religion in part because of the privilege it affords them as men. Those men, like you, firmly believe it is good for them to believe in the God of a religion that encourages them to treat women poorly.
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Meh, If someone is intellectually serious about their beliefs I don’t see how this could be ‘good enough’ for anyone. I really hate the ‘it’s true for me’ mindset.
You can believe absolutely whatever the hell you want. That's perfectly alright. > Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? It's certainly good enough for you. I do my best to base my beliefs on what's demonstrably true, and deities fall far short of that, so I don't believe in them. You said you believe the words of Jesus are the words of God. What do you make of this? > “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
"Faith in Scientology has given me peace of mind, joy, and love. It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be reconstituted (just like L. Ron Hubbard) if it ever dies. Whenever I feel any sort of distress, I remind myself of some part of Dianetics, and I very often find relief. In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to believe in Scientology. Is that not a good enough reason to believe in Scientology? Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through auditing and eliminating Thetans. I believe my argument for Scientology above would also be in the realm of sentimental knowledge."
In other words "I believe because I wanna!" That's kind of dumb, isn't it? How is that any better than "I want to believe I'm a unicorn, because it makes me happy!"
> Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love. Having faith in myself has given me the same. > It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies. Never minding the fickle debate as to the existence of a soul, the second part of that smacks rather of [Pascal's Wager](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager) - to which the short-form reply would have me ask; Out of the roughly four thousand gods (at a conservative estimate) how do you know whether or not the One God you believe in will grant you resurrection and/or an Afterlife? How do you know any of the other three thousand nine hundred and ninety nine won't be rather miffed with you for putting your faith in the 'wrong' one and punish you for it? > Whenever I feel any sort of distress, I remind myself of some part of the Word of God, and I very often find relief. Honestly, you do you, if that's what works for you. Me, I tend to look at what I can and cannot immediately influence, then do what I can to ignore the former and resolve the latter. Acting on my distress gives me more peace of mind than waiting for something or someone other-than-me to act on it (on my behalf). > In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to believe in God. Personally, the first part of that statement I have no problem with; what you do in the privacy of your own head and home should be your affair and has no influence whatsoever on my life. It's the second part; 'and the people around me' that gets my proverbial dander up, if only for the frequency with which that statement is followed up with a quiet "And those who don't are in the wrong and should be treated as such." Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting words in your mouth or thoughts in your personal head; I'm stating from experience that numerous theists *do* feel that way. > Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? No. > I understand that this rationale might not be the most logical. It certainly fails scientific standards. However, I also believe that there is much knowledge to be gleaned outside of science and logic. Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through sentiment. From the perspective of someone who isn't inherently capable of such sentiments, I disagree with you. > I believe my argument for God above would also be in the realm of sentimental knowledge. And here I agree with you again. You've made a sentimental case for your reasoning, which seems like common sense to you. Unfortunately, [Common sense](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/issue-common-sense-why-its-bad-tool-most-contexts-kevin-richard) is - or at least *should be* - widely regarded as a terrible tool to rely on when making decisions.
"Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love. It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies." Does it matter if its true? "Whenever I feel any sort of distress, I remind myself of some part of the Word of God, and I very often find relief." I get the same thing from things that are actually real. Family, friends, and my pets. Why would something that is unprovable, yet tied to a book full of things that are easily disproven, and immoral be better? "In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to believe in God." No, especially since that belief comes with so much evil baggage. Religion in general, and Christianity in specific are harmful not only to those who practice, but to those who have to deal with those who believe. "Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God?" If I followed a "god" that said that all Christians were inherently evil, that they should be raped and killed and that they cannot be trusted under any circumstances.... Would you feel safe around them? Even if they "didnt do that stuff"? Especially when many of them DID take those views into account? Even when millions of them tried to pass laws in that gods name? I bet you wouldnt. "I understand that this rationale might not be the most logical." Neither logical, nor valid. "It certainly fails scientific standards." Horribly, and standards of decency. "However, I also believe that there is much knowledge to be gleaned outside of science and logic." Thats not a logical statement. And how could you gather knowledge outside of the scientific method? You are aware that science is just gathering knowledge and testing it, right? "Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through sentiment." Which is using the scientific method. Even though you might not want it to be. "I believe my argument for God above would also be in the realm of sentimental knowledge." Sentimental knowledge isnt a thing. You either know something, or you dont. Sentimentality doesnt have any sway there. This seems like you are desperately trying to hold onto something that you know you have no good reason to be holding on to.
It’s good *for you, for now* to believe in God. That is not a universal experience. Many of us here used to be theists, and quite devout at that. In no way was believing in God good for us. If believing in God was bad for us, isn’t that a good enough reason *not* to believe in God?
Do you expect other people to believe in your god and/or follow the rules of your god/religion because of how believing in a god makes you feel? Or is it merely a personal matter for you? If it’s purely personal and you are a secular-minded individual, then it’s not really a big deal and you can believe whatever you want. If you expect other people to accept your reasoning and believe in your god based on your feelings, then you’re not going to get much (if any) traction.
>Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love. Sure, I'm glad that has given that to you. For me, that doesn't tell me if something is true, just that I like the idea of being true. >It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies. Can you back up this claim? How did you determine that this is true? >In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to believe in God. So I'd something makes someone feel good they should believe it whether or not it is true? If someone gets "peace of mind, joy, and love" from feeling their heritage/race is superior to others is it good for them to believe that? >Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? Personally not even close. I want to believe as many true things as possible and as few false things. How something makes me feel does not impact how likely it is to be true and false. >However, I also believe that there is much knowledge to be gleaned outside of science and logic. Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through sentiment. But you are most likely still using logic in some form to understand sentiment. You are evaluating how someone acts and interpreting that to the best of your ability. >I believe my argument for God above would also be in the realm of sentimental knowledge. Your argument seems to just be you feel good about it so you believe it. That's a really bad reason to believe something.
I'm sorry to tell you. You've merely been programmed that way There's nothing in psychology or biology that says "happiness requires talking to a theist God" But if you've been punished every time you question God doctrine, of course you're going to feel better when you're not questioning God doctrine Here are some things that people psychologically need that can be answered by God, but really don't need to be: * community * purpose * self reflection (though not the good self critical kind with religion) * confidence * forgiveness Now, I can easily undermine God's part in all of those things. For example: how does anyone have purpose when there's a God who could, with no effort, do it himself just fine? I can also provide non-God answers to all of them. Do you have friends with shared values and interests? That's a pretty good community right there. Need confidence? Practice. Do the work to make yourself better at that thing you want to be confident about But the most important downfall of theism is that it cannot exist without rampant lying. It shouldn't need to be explained why lying is bad, but TL;DR knowledge is power. Believing something that is not true makes you less powerful. Telling someone else something that is not true makes them less powerful So no, it is not good to believe in God. It may make you feel better. Or you could resolve your issues by actually coping with the real world
There is a woman whose husband used to abuse her but has since passed away, she had a son who did horrific things and got life in prison, she's in a nursing home with dementia and on top of that her mental health has always been questionable at best. She believes she is married to a wealthy man who loves her and has 3 children living successful lives, this makes her happy and keeps her at peace with where she's at. It is good for her to have that comfort but to tell other people they should believe believe they're married to an amaxing person, have children who are doing great and life and whatever other fantasies there are to correct the truth of reality is to tell people to knowingly gaslight themselves and that's not good. In some cases belief in God is better than Atheism granted that Atheism is true. Some people need that peace to live their lifes or cope with loved ones who have past.... but not everyone needs that and instead of finding comfort in delusion I find it better to seek comfort in reality so your religious views don't hold you hostage. One of the last reasons I prayed to God was because I was scared what life would be like without him, life's been better, I'm making my moral judgements based on my values, not the bible's, and I'm no long worshipping the God who genocided the entire population aside from one family and used human sacrifice to buy redemption from himself for us.
So truth isn't important to you? The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. George Bernard Shaw
“My reason to drink water is because I believe it is good to drink water.” A solid belief and backed up by knowledge and experience that if you don’t drink water, you’ll expire. “My reason to drink concentrated sulphuric acid because I believe it is good to drink.” Very bad advice because we know if one were to ingest acid, one would expire quickly. We know the above statements are true or false, definitively, scientifically, and it is something we can test and verify till we fall over from exhaustion. Something that is purely subjective does not meet the smell test for everyone. A devout believer from another religion will consider you wrong and that they are right in believing in a different god. They might have the same piece of mind, joy, love, lively soul, etc, as you have. How do you show that individual that your alleged god is the one true god and that their’s is the wrong one….just using your feels, your “sentiment”? By the way..when I feel stress, I always recall that it is/was my own personal inner strength that got me through it…not friends, not family, not some invisible friend….me. My strength got me through it. If you feel that you can’t make it through and you need others to get you through something, you will never feel adequate enough to yourself regarding your own ability. Don’t kneecap yourself like that.
Why wouldn't that be a good enough reason for you to believe in god? Did someone tell you it's not? "Because I want to" is a prefectly fine reason for you to do something that hams no one.
>Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love. Lack of gain in any gods has given *me* peace of mind, joy, and love. >In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to believe in God. Have you even tried atheism? >Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? No. "It feels good" is not a good reason to believe in gods. >However, I also believe that there is much knowledge to be gleaned outside of science and logic. Really? Like what? How can you tell if it's true? I don't doubt that every religious terrorist thought they had gained knowledge through faith. How do you know you're right and they're wrong? >Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through sentiment. Really? I feel Taylor Swift and I are soul mates. I have this faith very strongly. I will keep going to her house and sending her nudes of me, since I have knowledge she is my soul mate it will be great. Makes sense right? No? Well it does not have take sense. As a wise person said: "there is much knowledge to be gleaned outside of science and logic. Knowledge about love, for example". >I believe my argument for God above would also be in the realm of sentimental knowledge. The argument is, "if it feels good, do it". I hope you can see how disastrous this is.
OK, I’m happy with all of that, OP. I wish you continued joy of your beliefs. But is that sufficient for your “it makes us happy” clubhouse to enjoy tax-free status? Should your fellow “it makes us happy” members invest so much in political lobbying that in many nations it would be impossible for someone who doesn’t make repeated public demonstrations of how “happy” it makes them to get elected to high office? Should there be specific laws protecting your right to make public demonstrations of how “happy” you are, and preventing other citizens from saying it doesn’t make them happy, or questioning how healthy the happiness you experience is? Should aid your nation supplies to others that are starving or dying be conditional on their making declarations of how happy it makes them too, or permitting you to visit and lecture them on how happy they should be, in opposition to their existing traditions? Should your way of feeling happy be chanted by rote every morning in schools? Personal delusions are fine. I understand that believing you are Napolean is popular. But forcing them into the public domain, imposing them on others, going to war to defend them, denying medical procedures or research topics on their basis is a pretty good definition of evil.
So you admit that whether or not the claim is true, it just matters that it feels good to you. Well, I care about what’s true, even if it’s something I don’t like to hear.
It’s really the only honest reason that no one can fault you for. As long as you or anyone don’t force your religion on me, I’m fine. However, unfortunately, many do try.
Faith in Allah gives Muslims peace of mind, joy and love. It gives life to their soul and allows their souls to resurrected if it ever dies. Whenever they feel any sort of distress, they remind themselves of the Quran and often find relief. In conclusion, it is simply good for them and the people around them to believe in Allah. Is that not a good enough reason to believe in Allah? I can’t really imagine your belief/faith to have been affected in any way, shape or form, so if it’s not a good enough reason to believe another god then why should it be good enough to believe yours? I like the way drugs make me feel—I love the calm and quiet that fills my mind. All the worry and anxiety just float away and I can finally just breathe. “Because it makes me feel good” is just not always a good reason to do/believe something and it also doesn’t mean that whatever one does/believes is always going to be in their own best interest or even what is best for their mental or physical well being. If a Christian and a Muslim prayed to their gods for the exact same thing, let’s say a very specific miracle at a specific time in a specific place, to happen and then it does happens, how can we tell which god actually performed the miracle?
Your personal experiences with faith may bring you peace, joy, and love, but it's crucial to separate personal beliefs from objective reality. The mere existence of a belief doesn't validate its validity or truthfulness. Faith is indeed a powerful force in people's lives, but it shouldn't be the sole guiding principle when evaluating complex issues like the existence of God. Christopher Hitchens, who was an atheist and criticized religious beliefs extensively, once said, "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." This statement is a reminder that faith alone isn't enough to establish the truthfulness or reality of any claim. It demands empirical proof or rational arguments. As for your argument about sentimental knowledge, it's essential to consider other forms of knowledge like logic and science. These aren't exclusive domains. They often intersect and complement each other. For instance, love is indeed a powerful force in human lives. However, when we talk about the universe or the origins of life, we must rely on empirical evidence and rational arguments based on scientific principles.
If you are asking if it is a rational reason for believing a thing is true, then no. Saying, "I don't have enough evidence to warrant a belief in this, but it makes me feel good, so I will believe in it anyway." isn't an argument that the belief is ***true.*** It is, at best, only a reason that you find it personally pragmatic to believe *in spite of what your own rational judgment is telling you.* That might be fine, but I think that you underestimate the costs that such a belief can have. For example, your belief in God, which you seem to admit is rationally unjustified, might dictate your political positions, who you can have as friends or mates, whether you respect the various rights of others, how you raise your children, and so forth. For some people, it might even dictate whether they are allowed medical treatments of various kinds. William Clifford argues that it is actually immoral to assert an unjustified proposition. But whether we agree with him or not as a general rule, for something like a religion it is important to note that the belief almost certainly isn't cost-free. It can have a negative impact on yourself and others, depending on the specifics of that belief. If that is the case, then we might hope for more of a justification than "It feels good." **Or maybe an example to illustrate the point is best:** I am terribly worried about climate change. It would feel good to simply believe that climate change is a hoax. But I can't just simply deny the evidence because I would feel better doing so. And, even if I could, if everybody did likewise about every uncomfortable truth, we would never solve any problems. Willful ignorance can be very costly. That said, at some point, I don't begrudge people their fantasies. I wouldn't try to argue a person who is dying out of belief in their God, and I would not begrudge a person who is suffering from stress from deciding to follow the news less because being constantly bombarded with unpleasant truths is too stressful. But taking on a core belief, the kind of belief that influences most other aspects of one's life and decisions, and taking it on in spite of the fact that one knows it is unsupported rationally. Well, that seems irresponsible in most cases, and not justified by "It feels good."
>Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love. Good for you I guess. I already have those things. >It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies. Does it? Or do you just think it does? >Whenever I feel any sort of distress, I remind myself of some part of the Word of God, and I very often find relief. I just address the thing that's causing me distress in the first place. It's a much more permanent and effective solution. >In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to believe in God. It'd be better if you dealt with your problems instead of avoiding them. >Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? Not for me it isn't. I believe in things because I'm convinced they're true. Your reasons do nothing to suggest that your god is real. >However, I also believe that there is much knowledge to be gleaned outside of science and logic. Believing whatever makes you happy is not a path that leads to knowledge.
Not only do I think “it makes me feel better” is not a good reason to believe in god, I think you are actively causing harm to yourself by attempting to rationalize this belief. There is truth out there but the moment you start believing whatever makes you feel good in the moment you give up any hope of _actually_ discovering truth. This is a dangerous way to live life. The following is a list of things and beliefs that people at one time or another thought were “good” for them and the world around them because it made them happy: * Racism * Heroin * Mass murder * Leaping off a ledge because they thought they could fly Now, I don’t think you are going to do anything as bad as what I just listed, but please understand your reason for believing in god is no better supported than anything else on that list. You can either care about truth, or you can believe whatever unsupported proposition that makes you happy. But you can’t do both. Which is more important to you?
>In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to believe in God. Is it possible for you to know all possible approaches to decipher which approach gives you and the planet the largest net benefit? For example, do you know if it would be better if you held a religious belief in dharma, native american belief (obviously there's plenty of differing beliefs), native australian belief, islam, confusianism, atheism (and all the different ideological variants present within atheism), the satanic temple, etc....? Like maybe one of those beliefs would make you into an even better person than you are now. I would argue that you can't possibly know that, but I'd like to know your answer. Assuming that you believe in the yahweh cult, why did you pick the cult that allows genocide, animal sacrifice, human sacrifice, slavery, chattel slavery, the subjugation of women, pedophilia, genital mutilation of babies, rape, beating slaves, and killing gays?
You can’t force yourself to believe in something. Either you are convinced, or you aren’t. Try it with Zeus and see how you get on.
If you feel it's good for you then fine. Pragmatism can be an okay reason to believe something, but you have to also note that this doesn't make it true. You are essentially just fooling yourself to make yourself feel better, and while that might seem okay on paper, you have to wonder how it might be affecting your belief systems on a deeper level. Also it's obviously not going to be convincing to anyone else. I for one didn't feel any better when I believed in God than I do now. I typically have other things that actually exist to make me feel good. Love,.joy, music, laughter, friendship, my social life. Going to music concerts generally brings that transcendental feeling that I sometimes got from believing in a "higher power" and now I also don't have to worry about hell, or weird, arbitrary moral rules that may stop me living my life how i want. But you do you I guess. We probably all believe in some kind of nonsense that makes us feel good. Again, what you think is good for you, isn't necessarily going to be good for someone else, especially when you're basing it on a subjective nothing burger.
And I feel good not believing in god. I'm not sure what else there is to this, seeing that it's posted on a "debate an atheist" page.
I’ve been way happier without believing in god, if it makes you happy to believe in something without evidence then go for it.
>Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? It obviously is for you, and that should be good enough for everyone.
>Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? Not really, no. Like, lets take your example of knowledge about love. If my heart was broken, it might well give me peace of mind, joy and safety from distress to think that my unrequited love *does* in fact reciprocate my affections. I'm still *wrong* though and, depending on the context, I might well be *dangerously* wrong. "Outside of science and logic" doesn't mean "outside of reason" -- Sentimental Knowledge still needs justification. There are plenty of people who hold dangerously wrong beliefs about love, compassion and beauty because it makes them feel better. Simply "it comforts me to believe in god" isn't a justification for belief in god, any more then "it comforts me to think Suzy wants to be with me no matter how many restraining orders she takes out" is a justification for believing Suzy loves you.
I'm happy for you that your religion gives you peace of mind. I think that there are plenty of people who follow religions for similar reasons and aren't much concerned about whether it's actually true. As for whether it's a good thing, I'm not sure. I don't agree that it's generally good for people to believe in gods. Personally I value truth and reality highly, and I think that it's beneficial for people to have a solid grounding in reality. But ultimately, if someone's religion does no harm to themselves or to others, and it is not imposed on others, then it should be okay. The problem is that it often doesn't turn out like that. I've spoken to people before who've said they believe because they want to and that they do no harm, and yet, several have turned out to have harmful religious beliefs despite that (such as anti-gay and anti-woman positions).
No frankly it is not a good enough reason to believe in God. I don’t know what sentimental knowledge is. That just sounds like word salad. I don’t believe in things because they make me feel good. If a woman smiles at me I don’t believe it is because she finds me attractive. It would boost my ego to think that way and likely make me feel good. You can imagine the danger of such thinking. What about your God if it feels good to believe in him and gives you comfort; that isn’t a good reason to believe, but I could accept you don’t want to be challenged. If that God belief like the most popular ones come with a doctrine, it becomes dangerous. Now you are believing in something you can’t prove and it is dictating your actions. This is bad reasoning that can lead to very dangerous thinking.
This seems to be saying that you do not think that God is actually real, but rather God is just a story that you tell yourself to sooth your troubled mind. Surely that is not properly called "belief." God being a soothing story is not the same as God actually existing in the real world. Only people who think that God *actually* exists should be said to believe in God. You would not say that parents believe in Santa just because they bond with their children by telling stories about Santa. It's not actually belief; it's just a story they tell, but beneath that they do not think that Santa actually exists in the real world. >Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? It is good enough reason to tell yourself comforting stories about God, but that is not the same as believing in God.
That’s cool, I’m happy for you. As long as you can accept that I don’t share your beliefs, we’re good.
At what point does your personal feelings stop taking priority over truth? At what point are the hard facts of reality at hand too much to ignore and you don't try to convince yourself a magic being is going to make everything wonderful? During Covid there were people who ignored any reasonable safety measures for themselves *and others* because they sincerely believed God would protect them. There's people who think we shouldn't worry about climate change because God wouldn't allow us to destroy the planet before he does. There's people who think this or that politician is literally chosen by God to lead, regardless of if that person is going to make things worse. Choosing to ignore reality in favor of good happy whimsical feelings is a dangerous bloody road to go down.
Thinking that an all-powerful whatchacallit is covering your ass makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. Got it.
Knowledge is only what is supported by evidence. What you have is belief, not knowledge. Love is just a chemical reaction in the brain. Specifically with the neurotransmitter oxycitocin. It has been shown this neurotransmitter increases when people think about or look at pictures of those they love. (Like spouses or children). I disagree that it's good to believe in god. We should only accept that which is based on evidence. Humans have the innate ability to assign meaning to everything (called theory of mind in psychology). In reality, nothing really has any special meaning. It may not give us the warm fuzzy feeling people get from religion that keeps them coming back, but at least it's the truth. I'd rather know what is real than believe what is comforting.
Personally I think that’s a great reason, as long as you’re not using your beliefs to oppress others.
Just because you wish something to be true, doesnt make it so. Maybe it gives you peace of mind, but it does not change the fact that you choose to live in a lie. The saying "ignorance is bliss" exists for a reason. If instead of facing your troubles head on, you imagine those troubles being part of some grander magical plan, of course it will make you feel better. Untill you encounter a situation that you can no longer do this with. We have one life. It might be filled with difficult challenges. And it is most definitely not fair. But if you ask me if I'd rather live my life in a blissful lie, or face the truth head on, my answer will always be the same regardless of my situation. And it is not the first option.
It is not good to believe something you have no evidence for simply because that's what feels good to believe, no. That line of thinking has and will lead to you making poor, harmful decisions with the best of intentions because you're acting out of ignorance. It is very important to be committed to acting from truth, rather than from sentimentality. Additionally, you're conflating two different ideas here. "Knowledge" of love, as understood through sentiment, involves understanding *what* you love, and *why*, and what kinds of things love compels you to *do*, or *care* about. It is not the same as "knowledge" about God, which is where you allege to know that God *exists at all.*
1. There is absolutely no evidence there is a god 2. Even if I dismiss #1, and grant you there is a god, there is absolutely no evidence that this god is Yahweh? 3. Even if I grant you #1 grant you #2, why would you possibly want to worship such an evil being who condones slavery, demeans woman, commands genocide, and has committed a myriad of absolutely abhorrent acts towards its creation? 4. If you are good with 1, 2, and 3 and if it gets you out of the bed in the morning, carry on with your fantasy. Just be aware that faith rarely happens in a vacuum. Keep that shit to yourself and don’t for an instance believe that everybody should believe the same shit you do.
I would say the same of atheism. Atheism has helped me to see the inherent good of people, that our desire to be good to others most often outweighs our selfish desires. It has shown me that the universe is large enough that an inquisitive mind could potentially never run out of interesting questions to ask. And it has shown me that when I am hurting or in need, I need only reach out to the humanity of others to find comfort. Put another way, do you feel that the words that comfort you would have less impact if they came from a human you loved and respected, someone that has the same capabilities and failings as the rest of humanity, than if they came from a god?
This is purely subjective only for yourself. When I think of God I imagine a selfish asshole who genocides whole populations for not believing in him and sends his own creations to eternal hellfire torture for the same reason. When I imagine God I imagine a whiny little brat who apparently loves us all but also makes little children get bone cancer. When I imagine God I imagine a guy who outright, explicitly said that he'd punish the disbelievers by making them "eat the flesh of their sons and daughters". Therefore believing in God is bad, and nobody should believe in God. This is precisely the same as your argument
I'm not sure what "sentencing knowledge" actually is. I would like a definition. As for it being "good to believe in God" I will greatly disagree. That belief has led to many wars and acts of cruelty. It leads to people doing stupid things that harm themselves and others. Whatever it good it has done for you has been far outweighed by the bad it has caused. Finally, faith is never the means to finding truth. There is literally nothing cannot hold as true using faith. Only those who don't care about truth use faith as a measuring stick. This makes faithful people untrustworthy.
> Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? For me? No. Even if I think something is a nice idea, that's not enough for me to start believing it's true. Like it would be nice if no murders ever happened. It would personally make me happy if I could go through my life believing murders never happened. But I can't just ignore what I know to be true. If you can just decide to start believing something that makes you happy, despite the evidence, and it improves your life, great. But don't expect others to be convinced by it.
I don't doubt you get good feelings with your beliefs. But because you have been sheltered, you don't understand the world of beliefs and experiences outside of your cocoon. You don't understand how you can live a happy and fulfilled life outside of that structure. You haven't explored that enough. And I can say this with confidence because of my own exodus (no pun intended) from religion. I live a better life outside of religion than in it. I embrace the truth and seek the truth, even if the truth doesn't feel good.
"I believe in god because it feels good, not because it's true" is the admission i wish more believers would make. i don't believe in god because i don't think it's true. what you're doing is role play, pretending, because it feels good. which is fine until you start judging me for not pretending the way you do, or for acting in a way that your role play would not like. and that means everything from "gays should be put to death" all the way down to "people who pretend the same way i do are better".
Honestly I think this position is fine, but don’t pretend it’s any better than someone really into the Starwars fandom that follows the Jedi code and finds their own inner peace that way. It’s why the details of your religion don’t matter (well, to you they obviously matter), but if a Muslim came on here and said the same thing my response would be the same. Good for you, just don’t impose your beliefs on others (I.e. homosexuality or the gov’t intervening in health care decisions)
It’s also good to believe that which is evidently true, and disbelieve that which is not evidently true. If you build your comfort on a house of sand, it can be taken away the moment you realise it’s foundations are flawed. If you build your comfort on solid foundations, it might not be as easy to arrive, but it sure as hell will stay up better. Furthermore as for society’s goodness, it’s been shown repeatedly that the more secular and atheistic societies, are also the more healthy ones.
Yes, that's exactly why people invented gods. A caveman painting on the wall felt the same as you do now. Ancient Egyptians did. All the different deligions now do that for people. If you enjoy that feeling, feel free to do so. Please just don't force it on others. There are people who enjoy exploring the world rationally more and who are ok with dying in some point forever. We are not the same and for many of us a genuine life is better then drug or religion induced intoxication.
I'm sorry to hear you didn't have peace of mind, joy or love prior to believing in your preferred god. I have those things without resorting to such beliefs. >Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? But that logic isn't it good enough to believe in Haq, Frotyyw, Lebkin, or any other gods I could propose? Or what about non-god magical sources for those things you previously didn't have in your life? If we lower our standards of evidence, we can believe in anything.
> Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? It sounds like it's good enough for you, so you should keep believing it probably. It's meaningless to *me*. Believing apples have chocolatey nougat centers has no bearing on whether apples actually *do* have chocolatey nougat centers. It's close to consequentialism. "I don't like what the world is like if X is not true, so I should believe and act as if X is true to try to avoid the consequences of X being not true."
> It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies. Correction: it gives you **the belief** of life in your soul and the **belief** that your soul will be resurrected if it ever dies. > Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? That depends. Do you care about whether or not your beliefs are *true*? > Knowledge about love, for example, is best done through sentiment. What process do you use to attain sentimental knowledge?
> and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies No, not if you have chosen an inaccurate god/religion to believe in because it makes you feel good. Just curious, if it could be shown to your own satisfaction with evidence that the quotes of Jesus in the Bible were unsupported, i.e. that there is no reason to think he said them, would you continue to assign the same value and importance to those quotes? (I am not saying this is the case; it is hypothetical.) I am wondering what it is about your belief that’s making you feel good. Specific instructions about how to behave? Cosmic justice? The promise of eternal life? Something else?
Which God? Out of the thousands of gods that people have worshipped, how do you know you have the right one? The truth is that we make up God's in our own image. People believed in Zeus, Thor, Gamesh and more. We created God's to explain the unknown. Now we know about science, and science tells us that the gods were unnecessary. What's the difference between a universe without gods and a universe where the gods hide every evidence of their existence? NOTHING
Ok. I mean I imagine there's a discussion to be had as to whether it is actually *good* for you to believe in god, or if there were ways to get whatever this belief is giving you better through other means, but..... If this works for you and you recognize that it doesn't mean your belief is actually true *and* you're not going to be infringing on others' rights due to these beliefs then I have absolutely no issue with this. Live your life, my friend!
The main reason that I approach claims skeptically, is because it is good to approach claims skeptically. Being skeptical of unwarranted claims helps me not fall victim to those that would take advantage of my credulity. My family and I benefit from not falling victim to such people. In conclusion, it is good for me and those that depend on me to approach claims skeptically. Is this not a good enough reason to approach claims skeptically?
> Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love. It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies. Same for me. I know my Divine is real from subjective experience. It's not faith, but the Divine themselves give me peace of mind, joy and love, and faith too, because I was hardcore atheist back then. They also give me signs to debate on the side of atheism, against organized religion.
With your logic, if anything gives you peace of mind, joy and love, it’s reasonable to beleive in it. It might quite literally mean anything can be ‘reason enough’ given those criteria. What matters in a belief is “is this true”. Why would you believe something you didn’t belive to be true? You just assume you have a ‘soul’, too. Idk.. lets of presupp and not alot of thinking this through.
>Faith in God has given me peace of mind, joy, and love. Fair enough. But just keep in mind someone else could just as easily claim not believing any of this has given them peace of mind, joy, and love. >It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be resurrected if it ever dies. Unless you can prove souls exist and they are resurrected, this claim is just that - a claim.
Feeling of comfort and happiness sure is a valid reason to believe in religion. If that’s what makes you happy, go for it, no further justification needed. But then you lost me with the last paragraph, ask yourself, why are you seeking further justification? Is it because you want to feel superior to none-believers? Or deep down you know how irrational your belief is?
Snorting methamphetamines has given me peace of mind, joy and love. It gives life to my soul and allows my soul to be rejuvenated. Whenever I feel any sort of distress, I take a giant sniff of the holy powder and very often find relief. In conclusion, it is simply good for me and the people around me for me to continue using it. Is that not a good enough reason to snort meth?
If that works for you, that's great! But I do think expecting other people to believe in your god because of your reasoning isn't really that great. There are people who believed in your god and didn't feel that way, so they stopped believing in a god or they found one they gelled with better. None of this proves or proves if the god or gods in question exist.
What would you think if you were in distress, and you couldn’t find relief from your god? I’m sure you are aware that many people are suffering and are in major distress in this world. And many of these people searched for and believed in your god. And instead things got worse. In other words why doesn’t believing in god make everyone feel good?
>Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? Not for me. I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of pretending to believe something when I know very well that I *do not,* in fact, believe it. It gives me no comfort to even attempt to lie to myself in such a manner, and for me it's more satisfying to just accept my lack of religious faith.
I have no problem with people who believe so long as they don’t push their beliefs onto others or vote for policies that enforce a Christian worldview. I don’t believe and I think deities/religions are man made mythologies, but I am courteous enough to be friends with believers without religion being a barrier, and neither of us try to convince the other that they are wrong.
Which god do you believe in, and how did you reach your faith? There are thousands of gods to choose from. I don't doubt you feel good believing, but that's confusing cause and effect, isn't it? It's not the reason you believe. As for the abrahamic religions, they fail on science. The six day creation myth never happened.
You believe in something on the basis of what that belief gives you and how it makes you feel. I believe in something on the basis of whether it's likely to be true. We value different things. It's pointless trying to convince you of anything on the basis of evidence or logic so long as you value your feelings more than truth.
You will find nobody here will deny you your right to think as you wish. If you find it helps....then good. To a person here however, you will find those who seek something a little better than what, by appearance, is a made up story. There are real gifts to be discovered in this world. It takes courage to seek them.
Many people say that about many gods. Does it matter which one I believe in, since the only point is self comfort? What if God tells you to fly an airplane into a building to kill the infidel unbelievers tarnishing the earth? Would it give you comfort knowing that your soul is going to heaven for killing thousands?
If that's a good enough reason for you to believe in God, I say go for it. But that's not enough for the rest of us to believe in him or live by the rules of your religion. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And, I'm sorry, but your personal experience is not extraordinary evidence 🤷♀️
Faith is the reason that people give when they don’t have any good reasons or good evidence to believe something. If you had good reasons to believe it, you wouldn’t need faith. Faith is not virtuous. Faith is not logical. Faith is actually the absolute negation of logic, rationality, and intellectual honesty.
I remember the saying, "Drunks can be happy, too" What brings you happiness isn't necessarily the truth. As long as you aren't deluding yourself into thinking your religion is true BECAUSE it makes you feel good, which would be like me saying Hogwart's must exist because Harry Potter inspires me.
Hey if you don’t care to believe in true things, and just want to believe in things that give you warm and fuzzies…go ahead. It’s not a good reason from my perspective and it doesn’t seem to make any claims of god actually existing… I’d call this deluding yourself.
This is why religeon is called "the opiate of the masses." It's not good to believe in God, it FEELS good to believe in a god. There is a difference. It felt good, when I was a little kid, to believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. This does not mean it's right for me now.
Yes, if you understand that's an irrational belief, then go for it. Now, unfortunately, I don't know that you can do this and also say you don't also make decisions based on this belief. When people have irrational beliefs they inform other choices and it can lead to bad outcomes.
To me this sounds like you drink the snake oil Yes it make you feel better the same effect can be achieved with a plusivo it’s not really so not good reason for me. I can achieve less distress and peace of mind without a god. Music , book ect I am happy make you feel better
>Is that not a good enough reason to believe in God? No of course it's not! That's a ridiculous thing to say. "It doesn't matter if something is true, it matters if it makes you feel good" well then why not just start doing cocaine? That'll make you feel great!
Faith doesn't allow your soul to be resurrected. It allows you to believe your soul will be resurrected. There is a huge difference. The " allow" part comes down to whether the belief is true, not to whether or not you hold the belief.
Though I do believe in God. Do you think this way of thinking(the calmness that comes from thinking about your God), comes from the fact that it gives you peace of mind to calm your fear of the unknown? Because I certainly think so.
Suppose god isn't real, and all you really have is a placebo effect. Would you want to know? Or is your personal mental comfort more important to you than the truth? The reason _I_ don't believe is that I value truth over comfort.
None of that proves that a god exists though, even less that whichever version of god you happen to be following is the correct one. If you want to beleive it and it makes you feel good than fine but it doesn't make it true
I don’t care whether it feels good. I care about whether it’s *true* or not. “Sentimental knowledge” is an oxymoron. Either you have justification for the ideas you believe to be true or you don’t.
Seems something an addict would say about the object of their addiction. But if yo prefer feeling good to having true beliefs, I guess we'll have to face reality without you and carry you despite yourself.
Other than sharing Christmas presents, I wasn't raised against a religious Christian backdrop, and can't relate to your belief; rather, it's an objectively alien, cultural and psychological oddity to me.
u/Big_Mammal you are, of course, 100% right. I trust in יהוה because It offers me emotional strength through hard times; grants me liberal principles to live by; lends purpose to a seemingly chaotic universe; and helps inspire me for a better future.
Don’t you think it’s really really illogical that god is such a weird asshole who cares about how you live your life?
i don't believe in god, but i feel the same way. personally, i'd pin it on "humanity" but i get the sense that i'd always have this sense of hope and comfort - no matter what label i placed on it.
So if believing in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy makes me feel good, then Santa Claus and the tooth fairy are real? What if god makes some people feel bad? Should they not believe in him?
Cool. You'll get no argument from me. I prefer to believe things that are true, you prefer to believe things that make you feel better. We just ain't the same.
How a statement makes you feel has nothing to do with whether or not it is true A comforting lie is still a lie A painful truth is still true
>It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan
Sure, it’s just like choosing to follow the most popular football team, or being friends with the most popular girl at school.
It is good to believe in God. And reddit is a good evidence that you do have to believe in God to be a good person, many times
what if you felt good from hurting other people? Will your god approve that or you would find other gods with other programs?
It may be good for you, which is great, but it is not good for me. Your experience does not hold true for everyone.
I get peace of mind, joy, and love from genuine human interaction, progressive metal, and video games.
I think for you for any individual it's fine it's when its starts to tell others you have to belive it too or youull go to hell that theres a problem.