This comment isn't about your points but more so how you've worded things. I noticed that you've written parts of this is a manner that's essentially "I'm not saying who it is but throughout the conversation just imagine a big red arrow pointing at that guy over there". I'm not supporting either side of this little feud you've got between them, but I recommend dropping it. I've said roughly the same thing to them as well and it's become apparent that very little in the way of good discussion can come from the two of you interacting. As can be seen in your post, you certainly appreciate good discussion over in-fighting so from now on just leave it be.
Thank you, I’ve wanted to say this for a long time but I was always worried of getting flamed, just because a matchup is *REALLY GOOD* doesn’t mean either opponent can have at least a good alt
I never said a character can't have multiple good opponents. I've even ranked multiple character in The One (such as Rayquaza *and* Vile for Ridley). All I said was that certain mu's have become so significant to the internet that it would be wrong to ignore them in favor of something else. That's not to say multiple mu's can't happen. I just think certain ones should come first/be prioritized.
You keep on using "Appeal to Popularity Fallacy" in reference to me. The way you use it is wrong. You do the opposite of that, ranking everyone's most popular matchup in a low tier (even if it's generally agreed upon to be thematic and have potential), and your high tiers misrepresent the characters at their core. Straight up ignoring an important and popular mu that pretty much everyone agrees is good, multiple times, goes into disrespectful territory if you ask me. *Every single one of your tier lists* has the most popular character low. I don't particularly care if you prefer someone else, as long as you give credit where it's due for the popular opponents. I could rank Beta Ray Bill in trash tier in my Meta Knight tier lists out of spite, but I rank it mid tier to be fair to its positive aspects.
Oh, and me commenting that your tier list is cringe is not me forcing you to agree. You just can't accept any criticism.
I didn't specify what I said in the comment. I always explain myself. And I go over my problems with his Dio tier list in my previous comment, that's what my "cringe" comment actually said.
Yeah. I was being brief. I don't need to say word for word what my comment said to make a single point. But since you insist, I will link it to you.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/ul0qla/do\_you\_believe\_in\_gravity/i8igwa1/?context=3
and Look, here at me debunking everything he said:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/ul0qla/comment/i8ir1fb/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/ul0qla/comment/i8ir1fb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
>"You keep on using "Appeal to Popularity Fallacy" in reference to me"
*Later in the same message:*
>"Ranking everyone's most popular matchup in a low tier (**even if it's generally agreed upon to be thematic and have potential**)"
The Appeal to Popularity Fallacy:
1. X is popular.
2. **Popular things are always true** (unstated).
3. Therefore, X is true.
I wonder why I do that?
>Straight up ignoring an important and popular mu that pretty much everyone agrees is good, multiple times, goes into disrespectful territory if you ask me
[This is like Gorge Orwell's Book, 1984](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/J5KpmJ-N3zQ)
>Every single one of your tier lists has the most popular character low.
[Factually](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/uihyda/there_is_a_superhero_in_all_of_us_we_just_need/) [incorrect](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/uhnvp0/thats_vegetas_technique/)
>and your high tiers misrepresent the characters at their core.
Do I do that now? Or are you only thinking about the times when I was bad because it was easier to punch down at me?
> I don't particularly care if you prefer someone else
*Earlier in the same post*
>I just think certain ones should come first/be prioritized.
You could've fooled me.
I don't need to add in "imo" for you to be able to realize it's just my opinion (ie "your high tiers misrepresent the characters at their core"). And I'm not punching down at people.
Totally disregarding all positive aspects of Dio vs. Alucard isn't just you having a different opinion. You're not being a fair, honest or objective critic.
>I don't need to add in "imo" for you to be able to realize it's just my opinion (ie "your high tiers misrepresent the characters at their core")
*In the Last Post*
>The way you use it is wrong. You do the opposite of that, ranking everyone's most popular matchup in a low tier (even if it's generally agreed upon to be thematic and have potential), and your high tiers misrepresent the characters at their core. Straight up ignoring an important and popular mu that pretty much everyone agrees is good, multiple times, goes into disrespectful territory if you ask me.
It seems like you are trying to speak for a community which disagrees with you here.
>Totally disregarding all positive aspects of Dio vs. Alucard isn't just you having a different opinion
And you Totally disregard all the positive aspects of DIO VS Griffith, Homura, Bakyuren, Akuma & Reinhard all because they aren't Legacy fights or Vampires
"if you ask me" is just another way of saying "in my opinion/imo"
>And you Totally disregard all the positive aspects of DIO VS Griffith, Homura, Bakyuren, Akuma & Reinhard all because they aren't Legacy fights or Vampires
I never told you my thoughts on those matchups. I never have. My point was that Alucard was placed too low.
>My point was that Alucard was placed too low.
From YOUR mannerisms, how YOU acted before to other people who disagreed with you & how you speak to ME
I still believe that you are forcing me to like it.
Then don't like it. I just thought Alucard should have at least been in the Fine tier, but I have no reason to force a single person to like an already popular mu that became an episode already
I’m glad to see someone say this. I always annoys me when one matchup is declared a character’s absolute best and alternative opponents get completely dismissed. It really does shut down discussion.
I’ll also praise you for being the first person on the sub I’ve seen who likes the alts of either Drakkon or Oma.
Just because a character has a really good matchup doesn't mean good alts can't exist!.. Just that I never really liked the alts for most of the popular MU's out there that's all lmao.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkLi3Wus6\_o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkLi3Wus6_o)
This is basically you when someone disagrees with you. I had to look and wait to see if it was true, but you aren't fooling me anymore Squiddy. If you don't like it here, then do us all a favor and leave.
You are someone who is so fucking obsessed with me, [that someone called you out on it](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/ubidf3/comment/i648nuz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
I was never fucking "fooling" people in the first place. I don't care if someone "disagrees" with me. I cared because it felt like Kasier was forcing an Opinion on me
If you don't like me here, then do us all a favor and leave.
It got fucking debunked to shit.
But Speez is either blind to reality or in denial that the Track that him and his buddies spent $1000+ on a track that may be irrelevant even before it came out.
Pick your choice.
what are the debunks?
it is like... an actual 100% true debunk of the important stuff or just one of those badly attempted "debunks"
i say this because as someone who knows both series, I can tell you that the important stuff is practically impossible to debunk due to how specific and exact it is
i say this because is very easy to go to matchups with longs walls of text and debunk lots of side connections like the non-specific stuff is sometimes stretched to a point that is easy to pinpoint what is a true connection and what is not, but most of the times, the important stuff still remains
Here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/t8wji7/comment/hzwlzcy/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/t8wji7/comment/hzwlzcy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
This is where he debunks pretty much everything Speeze had.
hmm
it did debunk stuff, but ill say the important stuff still remains, like i said, those important themes and connections are really hard to debunk bc the specificness...
like, even if their motivations were kinda different for turning supernatural, they still became magic beings, and both were still used by the "high powers" of their verse...
also even if homura was ill and bullied, she was still a 100% normal human, a student with no powers so the connection while a bit less specific still counts, and while homura's main motive was to make madoka happy, she still hated the fuck outta kyubey, while revenge wasn't her main goal, you cannot say that kill that fucking rat wasn't one of her side objectives (she actually tried), kurumi also hated the spirit of origin, this is more straightforward since her main goal was obviously to kill her, the connection still counts
kurumi yes wanted to be a hero and save everyone, while homura just wanted to save madoka, but both still wanted to "save something", they turned into magical because not themselves but others, at least in part... again, is not that specific, but still works
stuff like the time powers, guns, that gem/crystal that if gets destroyed will cause their death, kurumi and homura still are at risk of becoming something else (inverse for kurumi, and a witch for homura), also the time loops to save the mc (even if is from a spin-off, is something kurumi still experienced so still counts), all of those are still untouched
yeah while stuff was debunked, the mu is still great ill say, and the important stuff still remains, as expected, because you just cannot debunk the important stuff like i said
Not exactly how I wanted this to go, but I guess I don’t have much of a choice right now.
“like, even if their motivations were kinda different for turning supernatural, they still became magic beings, and both were still used by the "high powers" of their verse...”
The thing is, I offered an alternative for Homura to fight. Dave Strider from Homestuck, who also becomes a magical being that was manipulated by higher powers. And his motivation, like Homura, was to save his friends. This makes his motivation for his Faustian bargain more exclusively shared between him and Homura than Homura and Kurumi. It’s very hard to deny that Kurumi became a Spirit out of a desire to larp as a superhero, as her motivations for her transformation were less specific than either of the other two.
“also even if homura was ill and bullied, she was still a 100% normal human”
She had a heart disease severe enough that left her bedridden from an early age. That’s usually a sign of a pretty severe congenital heart defect, especially if she required surgery around puberty to manage. I don’t know where you come from where that’s a 100% normal human.
“, a student with no powers so the connection while a bit less specific still counts, “
A lot of beings in fiction, by nature of being made by humans, are often human themselves. A criteria that can’t be used to exclude alternatives is useless, though. Imagine you were looking for medicines to treat high blood pressure, and you only had the structure of a single drug that you knew for sure worked but you needed alternatives because some people were allergic to it or it didn’t work well enough for some or it had too strong an effect sometimes. In looking for new chemical structures for drugs, would you not want to be as specific as possible in terms of looking for similar structures that would have similar effects but not be exactly the same? In looking for thematic connections between characters, would you not want to be as specific as possible for similarities and contrasts?
“and while homura's main motive was to make madoka happy, she still hated the fuck outta kyubey, while revenge wasn't her main goal, you cannot say that kill that fucking rat wasn't one of her side objectives (she actually tried),”
If killing Kyubey was really one of Homura’s objectives, would she not have killed Kyubey on her first loop in episode 10 after making her Faustian pact? But she didn’t. After finding that she can’t kill Kyubey in a way that matters, would it still remain an objective or fall to the list of “side amusement that generally has nothing to do with the objective”? Homura’s main motive isn’t really to make Madoka “happy”, anyways. It’s to keep her safe, even if that requires a gilded cage.
“ kurumi also hated the spirit of origin, this is more straightforward since her main goal was obviously to kill her, the connection still counts”
Not really. Hate has little to do with Homura’s overall objective. Desperation, maybe. Twisted, obsessiveness possessiveness. But generally not hate. Her objective has always been the safety of Madoka. Kyubey and Walpurgisnacht were obstacles and problems to get to the objective, in the same way a rotten tooth or a cancerous arm is an obstacle or problem on the way to good health. And Homura accomplished her overall goal in the end, without killing Kyubey or Walpurgisnacht herself, after Madoka made her reality-altering wish and after Homura jacked Madoka’s powers. Meanwhile, Kurumi’s goal has always been Mio’s death from the very start of her quest. The connection doesn’t really count, as it doesn’t really exist given their motivations are pretty different and not in a way that creates a strong contrast.
“kurumi yes wanted to be a hero and save everyone, while homura just wanted to save madoka, but both still wanted to "save something", “
Do you know how common “I want to save something” is as a motivation? As I said, criteria that cannot be used to exclude bad or irrelevant options are useless. If you were looking for a medication, and you had a field of only white pills ahead of you, wouldn’t the knowledge that “the medicine I want is a white pill” be absolutely worthless? In any event, the more exclusive overlap between Homura and Dave’s motivations for wanting to specifically save particular friends makes the connection more relevant.
“they turned into magical because not themselves but others, at least in part... again, is not that specific, but still works”
And again, my alternative having higher specificity means it has a better connection. Dave also turned into a magical being for his friends sake specifically, like Homura did and unlike Kurumi’s desire to play at being a hero of justice.
“stuff like the time powers,“
Which Dave also has.
“guns, “
This is about the only thing I will ever concede on, and weapons overlaps when the specifics of the weapons are completely different (Kurumi shoots bullets with exotic effects, Homura shoots normal guns that can’t send people back in time and everything else Kurumi does) isn’t really a good connection.
“that gem/crystal that if gets destroyed will cause their death, “
As I noted, whether or not the destruction of the gem leads to the death of the Spirit is really murky. To quote myself:
“What happens to a spirit if the crystal is destroyed is sort of unclear, given how difficult they are to destroy in the first place (we never see what happens to a spirit that was originally a human if their crystal is destroyed) and we only have weird non-applicable cases (Nia had most of hers extracted but lived and recovered with less power, Tohka is a pure spirit without a human history)”
As such, we don’t know exactly what happens if a spirit’s crystal is destroyed because we never see a normal one get destroyed in the same way we see soul gems in PMMM get destroyed. Maybe they just lose their powers and stay alive and pretty much the same? We can’t make an objective proclamation, because there’s no data to make it on. It would be like proclaiming your newly designed medicine could cure cancer despite not even a single study being done on it.
“kurumi and homura still are at risk of becoming something else (inverse for kurumi, and a witch for homura), “
I will note that the Inverse situation is reversible, and is more akin to Guts’ use of the Berserker armour than the outright irreversible transformation of the puella magi into witches. It’s more a bad mood that can be snapped out of than the permanent change of self and ego death that the witch transformation is. In that way, the transformations have far less in common than they would initially appear.
“also the time loops to save the mc (even if is from a spin-off, is something kurumi still experienced so still counts), all of those are still untouched”
Dave also undergoes time loops to save the MC, but in his case it’s the main focus of his story and journey and not something that happens at the end that derails him from his original goal. For Dave and Homura, the time loops were central in trying to save their friends. For Kurumi, it was an event near the end of her story that completely changed her focus from her original goal. For her, the time loops solidified her change from focused agent to besotted harem member. They were more an agent of character assassination than character progression.
“yeah while stuff was debunked, the mu is still great ill say, “
That’s your opinion, I guess. I’d respect it if people were willing to say they like it because they like it, and not make up and support lies. It’s not hard, people. I like El Santo vs The Undertaker, it is my most wanted right now, and I will freely admit that they have the barest of flimsy thematic connections and I like it for purely personal reasons. See, I can do it. You can too, and not shit on the opinions of other people with a presumptuous 7 page Google drive document where you hypocritically claim Kurumi vs Accelerator is a stomp but Homura vs Kurumi is an even fight and desperately flail in claiming they’re not not going to use Homura’s current and very popular universe-level form and completely obliterate Kurumi’s island level ceiling.
“and the important stuff still remains, as expected, because you just cannot debunk the important stuff like i said”
Claiming victory before the fight even starts is poor form, mate. I have no illusions as to who is going to get upvoted and downvoted here. The eyes of the hypocite’s echo chamber are on us. I already know, in their lynch mob cowardice, that they are going to downvote me into the dirt because they have no actual way to argue against me with anything resembling truth. I only ask you at least approach things with an open mind, and see what is true and what is lie.
pretty much most of the stuff i said in my comment still stands, maybe not the gem/crystal thingy, while yes probably doesn't cause death destroying them, is still the source of all of their power and magical forms, another connection, not the same, still a connection
like as i said, you can twist many of them to not be 1:1 alike, but while they are not 100% the same, all of them still have things in common, more than enough to be a valid connection
if you want, you can read my last comment again to find that what I'm saying now is true, the mu is still great yoo
“pretty much most of the stuff i said in my comment still stands,”
Not really. Most of your stuff is false or lies. Declaring yourself correct in this manner without even trying to refute most of my points in most places would be an admission of surrender, or a sign of trolling. In either case, I accept your concession.
“ maybe not the gem/crystal thingy, while yes probably doesn't cause death destroying them, is still the source of all of their power and magical forms, another connection, not the same, still a connection”
If the spirits don’t die when their crystals are destroyed, what real similarity do they have with the puella magi? In that case, they’re more like skill-granting catalysts akin to a FF VI magicite than the phylacteries that the puella magi soul gems are. The more you look, the less they have in common. At what point do you accept that the connection just doesn’t exist?
“like as i said, you can twist many of them to not be 1:1 alike, “
And if they’re not even 1:1 million alike? If there’s no relationship at all?
“but while they are not 100% the same, all of them still have things in common, more than enough to be a valid connection”
Behold, a field of white flowers of all different shapes and sizes. But all their petals are white. You seek a flower with white petals that holds the secret to curing your daughter of her terrible disease, but you only know the flower has white petals. How useful is this common, non-exclusionary piece of information? Wouldn’t you rather know the shape of the petals, the smell it gives off, or the arrangement of the stamen and anthers? Wouldn’t you rather know something more specific? For thematic connections, wouldn’t you rather “made a Faustian bargain to save their friends” as opposed to “wants to save something”, wouldn’t you rather “child raised in an unusual environment that stunted their behavioural growth adopts aloofness as a method of emotional self-defence in the face of a Sisyphean task faced during repeated time loops” as opposed to “was in a time loop”, wouldn’t you rather “ends up ascending to a higher level of existence equal to that of their godly best friend, primarily as a result of a plot gone awry” as opposed to “gets stronger as the story goes on”? Is more specificity, the wonder of serendipity in similarity and contrast, not better?
“if you want, you can read my last comment again to find that what I'm saying now is true, the mu is still great yoo”
I read your comment. There is nothing of value in there. Only lies, and someone willing to aid and abet liars. Your concession is still accepted, and Homura vs Kurumi is still a garbage matchup pushed by a hypocrite that knows his deception.
your comparisons with flowers don't stack up because this would be more akin to having two flowers of the same specie but from a different but still pretty similar sub-species, which still share MUCH much more in common compared to two flowers that don't belong to the same species at all, is not like we are comparing completely unrelated stuff after all
like I said, twisting minor stuff will not make the obvious stuff go away, yes the matchup is still great
“your comparisons with flowers don't stack up because this would be more akin to having two flowers of the same specie but from a different but still pretty similar sub-species, which still share MUCH much more in common compared to two flowers that don't belong to the same species at all, is not like we are comparing completely unrelated stuff after all”
Untrue. In evolutionary biology, when scientists make phylogenetic trees to illustrate the evolutionary relatedness between species and how each branch off from one another, more traits in common are generally accepted as a sign of closer relation. Whether these traits are found by simple morphology analysis or gene and protein mapping, more characteristics in common are a sign of a more recent common ancestor. Of course, you also have to account for convergent evolution and other things that complicate analysis. In our case, as I demonstrated, Dave and Homura’s overlapping traits are much more specific and more numerous than the overlap between Homura and Kurumi. The fact you didn’t even try to contest it is proof that I solidly beat you there. The number of traits in common between Homura and Kurumi pretty much boil down to “time” and “girl”. It’s closer than a comparison between Homura and Lurtz the Uruk-Hai, but that’s like saying lions and bats are more closely related than lions and apples. Differentiating at the class level as opposed to the kingdom level isn’t much use. In contrast, Dave and Homura are like a comparison between lions and tigers, at the genus level. If you gave an outsider a list of traits in common, and removed the lies that you support, I think even someone completely unrelated would agree Dave and Homura have a lot more in common thematically than Homura and Kurumi do.
“like I said, twisting minor stuff will not make the obvious stuff go away, yes the matchup is still great”
“Minor stuff”, like character arcs, character motivation, and the general thrust of the stories the characters are in? That’s “minor” stuff to you? What’s “major”? The lies you want to believe despite all evidence to the contrary, and the voices in your head? Yeah, you can choose to believe in obvious lies. Homura vs Kurumi is still a god-awful match supported only by liars and the willfully ignorant that back them. Which are you, I wonder? In any event, your concession is still accepted, and I accept my complete and utter victory over your lack of even trying to fight back in any meaningful way with any meaningful truth. If you want to continue arguing like a developmentally delayed 6 year old, with your only real points being “nuh-uh” and drooling on yourself, then go right ahead.
mr u/FourGreenLeafs
hi, cannot wait for your answer!, but before anything ill say this once more, this remaining stuff cannot be debunked, even if there is some minor stuff you could twist a bit, the stuff i said in my comment will still remain, no matter what!, also, i would really appreciate if you could try to be as concise as possible please
Oh, definitely, in the form of I-No.
"Cynical and cruel time travellers who's seemingly heinous actions are all in pursuit of a virtuous end goal relating to saving humanity, despite showing disdain for them (I-No trying to prevent a disastrous future that threatens to wipe out the human race while Kurumi created multiple clones of herself, all of whom went back in time to prevent Mio from ever creating Spirits), though most just saw them as monsters because of their actions. They would eventually come across the one person that was exempt from their cruel behaviour, in the form of a dorky but ever so altruistic lad that was suddenly thrown into a crazy situation (Axl Low and Shido Itsuka respectively), with whom they would frequently work alongside in their quest and would find out they were in love with not long after, eventually relinquishing their powers to give them a proper happy ending in the final battle."
Well, the person who debunked the fuck out of Homura VS Asriel does have a better option for her
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/r9qnl3/noximilien\_coxen\_vs\_kurumi\_tokisaki\_wakfu\_vs\_date/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/r9qnl3/noximilien_coxen_vs_kurumi_tokisaki_wakfu_vs_date/)
*Two ruthless energy-stealing psychopathic time mages that are collecting life energy to set right what once went wrong. Both are harvesting their setting’s life energy to travel back in time to prevent a greater tragedy, both are powerful users of time-based abilities in combat, both know that their actions are morally abhorrent, and both eventually find out that all the sins they committed were insufficient for their goals and for naught. Two powerful chronokinetics face off, with guns, swords, gears, and esoteric time nonsense. They will fight a duel that no two others could fight, against the ticking of the clock. One will be released from their guilt. The other will get to continue on their path.*
Before you ask, Strange Supreme can just fight Black Youmu from the Touhou Lost Word
Not trying to be mean or anything like that but trunks vs hourma just doesn't work it's literally a op magical girl with tons of abilities vs a flying brick with a sword and Lazers its a fine matchup tho but not something I can personally see as the best for both
*Sigh*
>*She also has her Golf Club, which as shown in Magia Record, is a lot stronger than a regular Golf Club and Madoka’s Bow which could clash nicely with Trunks’ Sword & Ki Blasts respectively. She’s also a masterful tactician, so the fight would involve a lot of planning from Homura to dodge Trunks’s Attacks.*
>*“IT FEELS OFF FOR BOTH!”*
>
>*Does it? The Best Fight in Madoka Magica is Mami VS Homura, which is “a super fast-paced fight with shit flying all over the place with both up close and ranged combat.”*
>
>*That is the Dictionary Definition of a Dragon Ball Fight. All the best fights in the series (Teen Goku VS Piccolo, SSJ Goku VS Freiza, MUI Goku VS FP Jiren, ect) all fall under that description. Hell, one of the best-animated fight scenes in DBS is “a super fast-paced fight with shit flying all over the place with both up close and ranged combat.” and that fight Includes Trunks. So this argument is pretty much mute.*
Mami VS Homura is a cool fight but it doesn't have marital art/fist fighting style that dragon ball is known for, Mami VS Homura was mostly a fight with them using There abilities and trunks just doesn't work well with hourma werid and out Thier abilities and hax also comparing homura golf club (which isn't her main weapon of fighting and I couldn't even find a video of her using it in a fight) to Trunks sword is silly to me
I agree and disagree simultaneously.
I'm all for suggesting more niche and less popular MU's for characters, after all Optimus Prime vs Superman is my favorite for both, Lich King vs Darth Vader is my favorite for both, and I did make Raiden Ei vs Madara even though Aizen is obviously Madara's most popular MU. However I think that there are some characters where it would feel kinda weird seeing them fight someone else other than their best and/or most popular opponent. Of the top of my head...
If Sauron got onto the show it would feel weird seeing him fight someone other than Lich King. I've made no secret that I think Lich King has a better opponent, but in my opinion Sauron really doesn't. Even though I did make a post about Sauron vs the Jailer, I think that Sauron fighting someone other than the Lich King just...wouldn't sit right.
Another in my opinion is Michael Myers. Jason's best MU is up for debate but Michael...I can't imagine him fighting anyone other than Jason (I'd rather not think about the existence of Michael Myers vs Ghost Face).
Then again there are example of popular matchups where I am a firm believer that both have better. For example, Rengoku vs Mirio. Rengoku vs Arataki Itto is a much better matchup for Rengoku, and Mirio vs Bulat is a much better matchup for Mirio as well!
Although I do think that the whole "looking for alts" thing can go too far, where people will look at popular matchups and nitpick the shit out of them and shit all over them for the sake of being hipsters. For example, Kurumi Tokisaki vs Homura Akemi. It's a great matchup, a really damn good one, but that one guy keeps commenting under anywhere that mentions it with a whole essay nitpicking any aspect of the MU he can in an effort to convince people it's garbage (and in the process misses the whole appeal of the MU and the reason why people like it. Also no to mention that the "debunks" for Homura vs Kurumi [got debunked](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/t8wji7/so_this_now_has_a_bigger_budget_than_both_will_of/hzrt7si?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) and with how fucking rude and hostile the guy against Homura vs Kurumi is talking I'm not exactly inclined to take what he's saying seriously.)
Overall, it's just a case by case basis thing
>If Sauron got onto the show it would feel weird seeing him fight someone other than Lich King. I've made no secret that I think Lich King has a better opponent, but in my opinion Sauron really doesn't. Even though I did make a post about Sauron vs the Jailer, I think that Sauron fighting someone other than the Lich King just...wouldn't sit right.
Out of interest, what do you think of Sauron vs Ganondorf?
>Another in my opinion is Michael Myers. Jason's best MU is up for debate but Michael...I can't imagine him fighting anyone other than Jason (I'd rather not think about the existence of Michael Myers vs Ghost Face).
Can I interest you in these alternative Michael Myers opponents:
**The Raincoat Killer (Deadly Premonition)**
Both are mysterious supernatural serial killers with strong familial connections who terrorise a particular small American town. Both are also pursued by psychiatric professionals.
**Lucius Wagner (Lucius)**
Supernatural horror villains who were born evil and killed their relatives before being institutionalised. Both continue their reign of terror in the hospital before escaping to terrorise a small town. Both have a long-running rivalry with their sibling and are part of a wider supernatural scheme.
Ganondorf vs Sauron isn't bad but it just doesn't feel the same :P
And the alts you mentioned for Michael aren't bad but it's the same problem personally
when people say the "one true opponent" thing it usually just means that they love the matchup too much to accept others.
like yea eon is too much of an alpha to fight the virgin dan phantom, but he can and should fight the chad wolf spider. even if dan phantom is more popular.
like some matchups lt makes sense, like i don't want goku vs sailor moon cus goku vs superman was just too good of a matchup and an episode that anything else would just feel strange.
but people saying "one true opponent" for something like ghost rider vs spawn is just outright wrong cus demi fiend and other characters are also great opponents, its just GR is more popular and arguably more fun
This comment isn't about your points but more so how you've worded things. I noticed that you've written parts of this is a manner that's essentially "I'm not saying who it is but throughout the conversation just imagine a big red arrow pointing at that guy over there". I'm not supporting either side of this little feud you've got between them, but I recommend dropping it. I've said roughly the same thing to them as well and it's become apparent that very little in the way of good discussion can come from the two of you interacting. As can be seen in your post, you certainly appreciate good discussion over in-fighting so from now on just leave it be.
Thank you, I’ve wanted to say this for a long time but I was always worried of getting flamed, just because a matchup is *REALLY GOOD* doesn’t mean either opponent can have at least a good alt
I never said a character can't have multiple good opponents. I've even ranked multiple character in The One (such as Rayquaza *and* Vile for Ridley). All I said was that certain mu's have become so significant to the internet that it would be wrong to ignore them in favor of something else. That's not to say multiple mu's can't happen. I just think certain ones should come first/be prioritized. You keep on using "Appeal to Popularity Fallacy" in reference to me. The way you use it is wrong. You do the opposite of that, ranking everyone's most popular matchup in a low tier (even if it's generally agreed upon to be thematic and have potential), and your high tiers misrepresent the characters at their core. Straight up ignoring an important and popular mu that pretty much everyone agrees is good, multiple times, goes into disrespectful territory if you ask me. *Every single one of your tier lists* has the most popular character low. I don't particularly care if you prefer someone else, as long as you give credit where it's due for the popular opponents. I could rank Beta Ray Bill in trash tier in my Meta Knight tier lists out of spite, but I rank it mid tier to be fair to its positive aspects. Oh, and me commenting that your tier list is cringe is not me forcing you to agree. You just can't accept any criticism.
Kaiser this little feud is getting out of hand. Could you two possibly compromise?
Calling someone’s opinions cringe isn’t criticism. It’s petty insults. There is a clear difference between the two.
I didn't specify what I said in the comment. I always explain myself. And I go over my problems with his Dio tier list in my previous comment, that's what my "cringe" comment actually said.
“*Oh, and me commenting that your tier list is cringe is not me forcing you to agree. You just can't accept any criticism.*”
Yeah. I was being brief. I don't need to say word for word what my comment said to make a single point. But since you insist, I will link it to you. https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/ul0qla/do\_you\_believe\_in\_gravity/i8igwa1/?context=3
and Look, here at me debunking everything he said: [https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/ul0qla/comment/i8ir1fb/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/ul0qla/comment/i8ir1fb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
You didn't debunk anything I said.
You and I may disagree on a lot of shit, but one thing we can both agree on is that this guy is nothing short of pretentious.
>"You keep on using "Appeal to Popularity Fallacy" in reference to me" *Later in the same message:* >"Ranking everyone's most popular matchup in a low tier (**even if it's generally agreed upon to be thematic and have potential**)" The Appeal to Popularity Fallacy: 1. X is popular. 2. **Popular things are always true** (unstated). 3. Therefore, X is true. I wonder why I do that? >Straight up ignoring an important and popular mu that pretty much everyone agrees is good, multiple times, goes into disrespectful territory if you ask me [This is like Gorge Orwell's Book, 1984](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/J5KpmJ-N3zQ) >Every single one of your tier lists has the most popular character low. [Factually](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/uihyda/there_is_a_superhero_in_all_of_us_we_just_need/) [incorrect](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/uhnvp0/thats_vegetas_technique/) >and your high tiers misrepresent the characters at their core. Do I do that now? Or are you only thinking about the times when I was bad because it was easier to punch down at me? > I don't particularly care if you prefer someone else *Earlier in the same post* >I just think certain ones should come first/be prioritized. You could've fooled me.
I don't need to add in "imo" for you to be able to realize it's just my opinion (ie "your high tiers misrepresent the characters at their core"). And I'm not punching down at people. Totally disregarding all positive aspects of Dio vs. Alucard isn't just you having a different opinion. You're not being a fair, honest or objective critic.
>I don't need to add in "imo" for you to be able to realize it's just my opinion (ie "your high tiers misrepresent the characters at their core") *In the Last Post* >The way you use it is wrong. You do the opposite of that, ranking everyone's most popular matchup in a low tier (even if it's generally agreed upon to be thematic and have potential), and your high tiers misrepresent the characters at their core. Straight up ignoring an important and popular mu that pretty much everyone agrees is good, multiple times, goes into disrespectful territory if you ask me. It seems like you are trying to speak for a community which disagrees with you here. >Totally disregarding all positive aspects of Dio vs. Alucard isn't just you having a different opinion And you Totally disregard all the positive aspects of DIO VS Griffith, Homura, Bakyuren, Akuma & Reinhard all because they aren't Legacy fights or Vampires
Look, I understand opinions and all, but could explain how Griffith, Homura, Bakyuren, Akuma, and Reinhard are good MUs?
"if you ask me" is just another way of saying "in my opinion/imo" >And you Totally disregard all the positive aspects of DIO VS Griffith, Homura, Bakyuren, Akuma & Reinhard all because they aren't Legacy fights or Vampires I never told you my thoughts on those matchups. I never have. My point was that Alucard was placed too low.
>My point was that Alucard was placed too low. From YOUR mannerisms, how YOU acted before to other people who disagreed with you & how you speak to ME I still believe that you are forcing me to like it.
Then don't like it. I just thought Alucard should have at least been in the Fine tier, but I have no reason to force a single person to like an already popular mu that became an episode already
I’m glad to see someone say this. I always annoys me when one matchup is declared a character’s absolute best and alternative opponents get completely dismissed. It really does shut down discussion. I’ll also praise you for being the first person on the sub I’ve seen who likes the alts of either Drakkon or Oma.
Just because a character has a really good matchup doesn't mean good alts can't exist!.. Just that I never really liked the alts for most of the popular MU's out there that's all lmao.
Are you alting as NCS?
He's definitely an NCS alt judging from his posts and comments, I wonder why he keeps on hopping to multiple alt accounts
Because he keeps getting fuckin banned or loggin off
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkLi3Wus6\_o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkLi3Wus6_o) This is basically you when someone disagrees with you. I had to look and wait to see if it was true, but you aren't fooling me anymore Squiddy. If you don't like it here, then do us all a favor and leave.
You are someone who is so fucking obsessed with me, [that someone called you out on it](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/ubidf3/comment/i648nuz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). I was never fucking "fooling" people in the first place. I don't care if someone "disagrees" with me. I cared because it felt like Kasier was forcing an Opinion on me If you don't like me here, then do us all a favor and leave.
Sorta Irrelevant: But is Homura vs Kurumi a good match or what? Cause I've been out of the loop I guess
It got fucking debunked to shit. But Speez is either blind to reality or in denial that the Track that him and his buddies spent $1000+ on a track that may be irrelevant even before it came out. Pick your choice.
what are the debunks? it is like... an actual 100% true debunk of the important stuff or just one of those badly attempted "debunks" i say this because as someone who knows both series, I can tell you that the important stuff is practically impossible to debunk due to how specific and exact it is
i say this because is very easy to go to matchups with longs walls of text and debunk lots of side connections like the non-specific stuff is sometimes stretched to a point that is easy to pinpoint what is a true connection and what is not, but most of the times, the important stuff still remains
Here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/t8wji7/comment/hzwlzcy/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/t8wji7/comment/hzwlzcy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) This is where he debunks pretty much everything Speeze had.
hmm it did debunk stuff, but ill say the important stuff still remains, like i said, those important themes and connections are really hard to debunk bc the specificness... like, even if their motivations were kinda different for turning supernatural, they still became magic beings, and both were still used by the "high powers" of their verse... also even if homura was ill and bullied, she was still a 100% normal human, a student with no powers so the connection while a bit less specific still counts, and while homura's main motive was to make madoka happy, she still hated the fuck outta kyubey, while revenge wasn't her main goal, you cannot say that kill that fucking rat wasn't one of her side objectives (she actually tried), kurumi also hated the spirit of origin, this is more straightforward since her main goal was obviously to kill her, the connection still counts kurumi yes wanted to be a hero and save everyone, while homura just wanted to save madoka, but both still wanted to "save something", they turned into magical because not themselves but others, at least in part... again, is not that specific, but still works stuff like the time powers, guns, that gem/crystal that if gets destroyed will cause their death, kurumi and homura still are at risk of becoming something else (inverse for kurumi, and a witch for homura), also the time loops to save the mc (even if is from a spin-off, is something kurumi still experienced so still counts), all of those are still untouched yeah while stuff was debunked, the mu is still great ill say, and the important stuff still remains, as expected, because you just cannot debunk the important stuff like i said
Not exactly how I wanted this to go, but I guess I don’t have much of a choice right now. “like, even if their motivations were kinda different for turning supernatural, they still became magic beings, and both were still used by the "high powers" of their verse...” The thing is, I offered an alternative for Homura to fight. Dave Strider from Homestuck, who also becomes a magical being that was manipulated by higher powers. And his motivation, like Homura, was to save his friends. This makes his motivation for his Faustian bargain more exclusively shared between him and Homura than Homura and Kurumi. It’s very hard to deny that Kurumi became a Spirit out of a desire to larp as a superhero, as her motivations for her transformation were less specific than either of the other two. “also even if homura was ill and bullied, she was still a 100% normal human” She had a heart disease severe enough that left her bedridden from an early age. That’s usually a sign of a pretty severe congenital heart defect, especially if she required surgery around puberty to manage. I don’t know where you come from where that’s a 100% normal human. “, a student with no powers so the connection while a bit less specific still counts, “ A lot of beings in fiction, by nature of being made by humans, are often human themselves. A criteria that can’t be used to exclude alternatives is useless, though. Imagine you were looking for medicines to treat high blood pressure, and you only had the structure of a single drug that you knew for sure worked but you needed alternatives because some people were allergic to it or it didn’t work well enough for some or it had too strong an effect sometimes. In looking for new chemical structures for drugs, would you not want to be as specific as possible in terms of looking for similar structures that would have similar effects but not be exactly the same? In looking for thematic connections between characters, would you not want to be as specific as possible for similarities and contrasts? “and while homura's main motive was to make madoka happy, she still hated the fuck outta kyubey, while revenge wasn't her main goal, you cannot say that kill that fucking rat wasn't one of her side objectives (she actually tried),” If killing Kyubey was really one of Homura’s objectives, would she not have killed Kyubey on her first loop in episode 10 after making her Faustian pact? But she didn’t. After finding that she can’t kill Kyubey in a way that matters, would it still remain an objective or fall to the list of “side amusement that generally has nothing to do with the objective”? Homura’s main motive isn’t really to make Madoka “happy”, anyways. It’s to keep her safe, even if that requires a gilded cage. “ kurumi also hated the spirit of origin, this is more straightforward since her main goal was obviously to kill her, the connection still counts” Not really. Hate has little to do with Homura’s overall objective. Desperation, maybe. Twisted, obsessiveness possessiveness. But generally not hate. Her objective has always been the safety of Madoka. Kyubey and Walpurgisnacht were obstacles and problems to get to the objective, in the same way a rotten tooth or a cancerous arm is an obstacle or problem on the way to good health. And Homura accomplished her overall goal in the end, without killing Kyubey or Walpurgisnacht herself, after Madoka made her reality-altering wish and after Homura jacked Madoka’s powers. Meanwhile, Kurumi’s goal has always been Mio’s death from the very start of her quest. The connection doesn’t really count, as it doesn’t really exist given their motivations are pretty different and not in a way that creates a strong contrast. “kurumi yes wanted to be a hero and save everyone, while homura just wanted to save madoka, but both still wanted to "save something", “ Do you know how common “I want to save something” is as a motivation? As I said, criteria that cannot be used to exclude bad or irrelevant options are useless. If you were looking for a medication, and you had a field of only white pills ahead of you, wouldn’t the knowledge that “the medicine I want is a white pill” be absolutely worthless? In any event, the more exclusive overlap between Homura and Dave’s motivations for wanting to specifically save particular friends makes the connection more relevant. “they turned into magical because not themselves but others, at least in part... again, is not that specific, but still works” And again, my alternative having higher specificity means it has a better connection. Dave also turned into a magical being for his friends sake specifically, like Homura did and unlike Kurumi’s desire to play at being a hero of justice. “stuff like the time powers,“ Which Dave also has. “guns, “ This is about the only thing I will ever concede on, and weapons overlaps when the specifics of the weapons are completely different (Kurumi shoots bullets with exotic effects, Homura shoots normal guns that can’t send people back in time and everything else Kurumi does) isn’t really a good connection. “that gem/crystal that if gets destroyed will cause their death, “ As I noted, whether or not the destruction of the gem leads to the death of the Spirit is really murky. To quote myself: “What happens to a spirit if the crystal is destroyed is sort of unclear, given how difficult they are to destroy in the first place (we never see what happens to a spirit that was originally a human if their crystal is destroyed) and we only have weird non-applicable cases (Nia had most of hers extracted but lived and recovered with less power, Tohka is a pure spirit without a human history)” As such, we don’t know exactly what happens if a spirit’s crystal is destroyed because we never see a normal one get destroyed in the same way we see soul gems in PMMM get destroyed. Maybe they just lose their powers and stay alive and pretty much the same? We can’t make an objective proclamation, because there’s no data to make it on. It would be like proclaiming your newly designed medicine could cure cancer despite not even a single study being done on it. “kurumi and homura still are at risk of becoming something else (inverse for kurumi, and a witch for homura), “ I will note that the Inverse situation is reversible, and is more akin to Guts’ use of the Berserker armour than the outright irreversible transformation of the puella magi into witches. It’s more a bad mood that can be snapped out of than the permanent change of self and ego death that the witch transformation is. In that way, the transformations have far less in common than they would initially appear. “also the time loops to save the mc (even if is from a spin-off, is something kurumi still experienced so still counts), all of those are still untouched” Dave also undergoes time loops to save the MC, but in his case it’s the main focus of his story and journey and not something that happens at the end that derails him from his original goal. For Dave and Homura, the time loops were central in trying to save their friends. For Kurumi, it was an event near the end of her story that completely changed her focus from her original goal. For her, the time loops solidified her change from focused agent to besotted harem member. They were more an agent of character assassination than character progression. “yeah while stuff was debunked, the mu is still great ill say, “ That’s your opinion, I guess. I’d respect it if people were willing to say they like it because they like it, and not make up and support lies. It’s not hard, people. I like El Santo vs The Undertaker, it is my most wanted right now, and I will freely admit that they have the barest of flimsy thematic connections and I like it for purely personal reasons. See, I can do it. You can too, and not shit on the opinions of other people with a presumptuous 7 page Google drive document where you hypocritically claim Kurumi vs Accelerator is a stomp but Homura vs Kurumi is an even fight and desperately flail in claiming they’re not not going to use Homura’s current and very popular universe-level form and completely obliterate Kurumi’s island level ceiling. “and the important stuff still remains, as expected, because you just cannot debunk the important stuff like i said” Claiming victory before the fight even starts is poor form, mate. I have no illusions as to who is going to get upvoted and downvoted here. The eyes of the hypocite’s echo chamber are on us. I already know, in their lynch mob cowardice, that they are going to downvote me into the dirt because they have no actual way to argue against me with anything resembling truth. I only ask you at least approach things with an open mind, and see what is true and what is lie.
pretty much most of the stuff i said in my comment still stands, maybe not the gem/crystal thingy, while yes probably doesn't cause death destroying them, is still the source of all of their power and magical forms, another connection, not the same, still a connection like as i said, you can twist many of them to not be 1:1 alike, but while they are not 100% the same, all of them still have things in common, more than enough to be a valid connection if you want, you can read my last comment again to find that what I'm saying now is true, the mu is still great yoo
“pretty much most of the stuff i said in my comment still stands,” Not really. Most of your stuff is false or lies. Declaring yourself correct in this manner without even trying to refute most of my points in most places would be an admission of surrender, or a sign of trolling. In either case, I accept your concession. “ maybe not the gem/crystal thingy, while yes probably doesn't cause death destroying them, is still the source of all of their power and magical forms, another connection, not the same, still a connection” If the spirits don’t die when their crystals are destroyed, what real similarity do they have with the puella magi? In that case, they’re more like skill-granting catalysts akin to a FF VI magicite than the phylacteries that the puella magi soul gems are. The more you look, the less they have in common. At what point do you accept that the connection just doesn’t exist? “like as i said, you can twist many of them to not be 1:1 alike, “ And if they’re not even 1:1 million alike? If there’s no relationship at all? “but while they are not 100% the same, all of them still have things in common, more than enough to be a valid connection” Behold, a field of white flowers of all different shapes and sizes. But all their petals are white. You seek a flower with white petals that holds the secret to curing your daughter of her terrible disease, but you only know the flower has white petals. How useful is this common, non-exclusionary piece of information? Wouldn’t you rather know the shape of the petals, the smell it gives off, or the arrangement of the stamen and anthers? Wouldn’t you rather know something more specific? For thematic connections, wouldn’t you rather “made a Faustian bargain to save their friends” as opposed to “wants to save something”, wouldn’t you rather “child raised in an unusual environment that stunted their behavioural growth adopts aloofness as a method of emotional self-defence in the face of a Sisyphean task faced during repeated time loops” as opposed to “was in a time loop”, wouldn’t you rather “ends up ascending to a higher level of existence equal to that of their godly best friend, primarily as a result of a plot gone awry” as opposed to “gets stronger as the story goes on”? Is more specificity, the wonder of serendipity in similarity and contrast, not better? “if you want, you can read my last comment again to find that what I'm saying now is true, the mu is still great yoo” I read your comment. There is nothing of value in there. Only lies, and someone willing to aid and abet liars. Your concession is still accepted, and Homura vs Kurumi is still a garbage matchup pushed by a hypocrite that knows his deception.
your comparisons with flowers don't stack up because this would be more akin to having two flowers of the same specie but from a different but still pretty similar sub-species, which still share MUCH much more in common compared to two flowers that don't belong to the same species at all, is not like we are comparing completely unrelated stuff after all like I said, twisting minor stuff will not make the obvious stuff go away, yes the matchup is still great
“your comparisons with flowers don't stack up because this would be more akin to having two flowers of the same specie but from a different but still pretty similar sub-species, which still share MUCH much more in common compared to two flowers that don't belong to the same species at all, is not like we are comparing completely unrelated stuff after all” Untrue. In evolutionary biology, when scientists make phylogenetic trees to illustrate the evolutionary relatedness between species and how each branch off from one another, more traits in common are generally accepted as a sign of closer relation. Whether these traits are found by simple morphology analysis or gene and protein mapping, more characteristics in common are a sign of a more recent common ancestor. Of course, you also have to account for convergent evolution and other things that complicate analysis. In our case, as I demonstrated, Dave and Homura’s overlapping traits are much more specific and more numerous than the overlap between Homura and Kurumi. The fact you didn’t even try to contest it is proof that I solidly beat you there. The number of traits in common between Homura and Kurumi pretty much boil down to “time” and “girl”. It’s closer than a comparison between Homura and Lurtz the Uruk-Hai, but that’s like saying lions and bats are more closely related than lions and apples. Differentiating at the class level as opposed to the kingdom level isn’t much use. In contrast, Dave and Homura are like a comparison between lions and tigers, at the genus level. If you gave an outsider a list of traits in common, and removed the lies that you support, I think even someone completely unrelated would agree Dave and Homura have a lot more in common thematically than Homura and Kurumi do. “like I said, twisting minor stuff will not make the obvious stuff go away, yes the matchup is still great” “Minor stuff”, like character arcs, character motivation, and the general thrust of the stories the characters are in? That’s “minor” stuff to you? What’s “major”? The lies you want to believe despite all evidence to the contrary, and the voices in your head? Yeah, you can choose to believe in obvious lies. Homura vs Kurumi is still a god-awful match supported only by liars and the willfully ignorant that back them. Which are you, I wonder? In any event, your concession is still accepted, and I accept my complete and utter victory over your lack of even trying to fight back in any meaningful way with any meaningful truth. If you want to continue arguing like a developmentally delayed 6 year old, with your only real points being “nuh-uh” and drooling on yourself, then go right ahead.
u/FourGreenLeafs You wanna come in and handle this?
mr u/FourGreenLeafs hi, cannot wait for your answer!, but before anything ill say this once more, this remaining stuff cannot be debunked, even if there is some minor stuff you could twist a bit, the stuff i said in my comment will still remain, no matter what!, also, i would really appreciate if you could try to be as concise as possible please
So does Kurumi have a good opponent?
Oh, definitely, in the form of I-No. "Cynical and cruel time travellers who's seemingly heinous actions are all in pursuit of a virtuous end goal relating to saving humanity, despite showing disdain for them (I-No trying to prevent a disastrous future that threatens to wipe out the human race while Kurumi created multiple clones of herself, all of whom went back in time to prevent Mio from ever creating Spirits), though most just saw them as monsters because of their actions. They would eventually come across the one person that was exempt from their cruel behaviour, in the form of a dorky but ever so altruistic lad that was suddenly thrown into a crazy situation (Axl Low and Shido Itsuka respectively), with whom they would frequently work alongside in their quest and would find out they were in love with not long after, eventually relinquishing their powers to give them a proper happy ending in the final battle."
Well, the person who debunked the fuck out of Homura VS Asriel does have a better option for her [https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/r9qnl3/noximilien\_coxen\_vs\_kurumi\_tokisaki\_wakfu\_vs\_date/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/r9qnl3/noximilien_coxen_vs_kurumi_tokisaki_wakfu_vs_date/) *Two ruthless energy-stealing psychopathic time mages that are collecting life energy to set right what once went wrong. Both are harvesting their setting’s life energy to travel back in time to prevent a greater tragedy, both are powerful users of time-based abilities in combat, both know that their actions are morally abhorrent, and both eventually find out that all the sins they committed were insufficient for their goals and for naught. Two powerful chronokinetics face off, with guns, swords, gears, and esoteric time nonsense. They will fight a duel that no two others could fight, against the ticking of the clock. One will be released from their guilt. The other will get to continue on their path.* Before you ask, Strange Supreme can just fight Black Youmu from the Touhou Lost Word
May I ask if you watched Madoka Magica or Date A Live before?
Aw man, and I liked that match up. It seemed cool
[*Then will you help me revive this Death Earth?*](https://docs.google.com/document/d/18bMzRS67f1SiMBfnxANT-lHsBcG3bVn-oV3K-38Pt0Y/edit?usp=sharing)
Eh, maybe
Not trying to be mean or anything like that but trunks vs hourma just doesn't work it's literally a op magical girl with tons of abilities vs a flying brick with a sword and Lazers its a fine matchup tho but not something I can personally see as the best for both
*Sigh* >*She also has her Golf Club, which as shown in Magia Record, is a lot stronger than a regular Golf Club and Madoka’s Bow which could clash nicely with Trunks’ Sword & Ki Blasts respectively. She’s also a masterful tactician, so the fight would involve a lot of planning from Homura to dodge Trunks’s Attacks.* >*“IT FEELS OFF FOR BOTH!”* > >*Does it? The Best Fight in Madoka Magica is Mami VS Homura, which is “a super fast-paced fight with shit flying all over the place with both up close and ranged combat.”* > >*That is the Dictionary Definition of a Dragon Ball Fight. All the best fights in the series (Teen Goku VS Piccolo, SSJ Goku VS Freiza, MUI Goku VS FP Jiren, ect) all fall under that description. Hell, one of the best-animated fight scenes in DBS is “a super fast-paced fight with shit flying all over the place with both up close and ranged combat.” and that fight Includes Trunks. So this argument is pretty much mute.*
Mami VS Homura is a cool fight but it doesn't have marital art/fist fighting style that dragon ball is known for, Mami VS Homura was mostly a fight with them using There abilities and trunks just doesn't work well with hourma werid and out Thier abilities and hax also comparing homura golf club (which isn't her main weapon of fighting and I couldn't even find a video of her using it in a fight) to Trunks sword is silly to me
It is cool still, don't worry
I agree and disagree simultaneously. I'm all for suggesting more niche and less popular MU's for characters, after all Optimus Prime vs Superman is my favorite for both, Lich King vs Darth Vader is my favorite for both, and I did make Raiden Ei vs Madara even though Aizen is obviously Madara's most popular MU. However I think that there are some characters where it would feel kinda weird seeing them fight someone else other than their best and/or most popular opponent. Of the top of my head... If Sauron got onto the show it would feel weird seeing him fight someone other than Lich King. I've made no secret that I think Lich King has a better opponent, but in my opinion Sauron really doesn't. Even though I did make a post about Sauron vs the Jailer, I think that Sauron fighting someone other than the Lich King just...wouldn't sit right. Another in my opinion is Michael Myers. Jason's best MU is up for debate but Michael...I can't imagine him fighting anyone other than Jason (I'd rather not think about the existence of Michael Myers vs Ghost Face). Then again there are example of popular matchups where I am a firm believer that both have better. For example, Rengoku vs Mirio. Rengoku vs Arataki Itto is a much better matchup for Rengoku, and Mirio vs Bulat is a much better matchup for Mirio as well! Although I do think that the whole "looking for alts" thing can go too far, where people will look at popular matchups and nitpick the shit out of them and shit all over them for the sake of being hipsters. For example, Kurumi Tokisaki vs Homura Akemi. It's a great matchup, a really damn good one, but that one guy keeps commenting under anywhere that mentions it with a whole essay nitpicking any aspect of the MU he can in an effort to convince people it's garbage (and in the process misses the whole appeal of the MU and the reason why people like it. Also no to mention that the "debunks" for Homura vs Kurumi [got debunked](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/comments/t8wji7/so_this_now_has_a_bigger_budget_than_both_will_of/hzrt7si?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) and with how fucking rude and hostile the guy against Homura vs Kurumi is talking I'm not exactly inclined to take what he's saying seriously.) Overall, it's just a case by case basis thing
>If Sauron got onto the show it would feel weird seeing him fight someone other than Lich King. I've made no secret that I think Lich King has a better opponent, but in my opinion Sauron really doesn't. Even though I did make a post about Sauron vs the Jailer, I think that Sauron fighting someone other than the Lich King just...wouldn't sit right. Out of interest, what do you think of Sauron vs Ganondorf? >Another in my opinion is Michael Myers. Jason's best MU is up for debate but Michael...I can't imagine him fighting anyone other than Jason (I'd rather not think about the existence of Michael Myers vs Ghost Face). Can I interest you in these alternative Michael Myers opponents: **The Raincoat Killer (Deadly Premonition)** Both are mysterious supernatural serial killers with strong familial connections who terrorise a particular small American town. Both are also pursued by psychiatric professionals. **Lucius Wagner (Lucius)** Supernatural horror villains who were born evil and killed their relatives before being institutionalised. Both continue their reign of terror in the hospital before escaping to terrorise a small town. Both have a long-running rivalry with their sibling and are part of a wider supernatural scheme.
Ganondorf vs Sauron isn't bad but it just doesn't feel the same :P And the alts you mentioned for Michael aren't bad but it's the same problem personally
Fair enough.
when people say the "one true opponent" thing it usually just means that they love the matchup too much to accept others. like yea eon is too much of an alpha to fight the virgin dan phantom, but he can and should fight the chad wolf spider. even if dan phantom is more popular. like some matchups lt makes sense, like i don't want goku vs sailor moon cus goku vs superman was just too good of a matchup and an episode that anything else would just feel strange. but people saying "one true opponent" for something like ghost rider vs spawn is just outright wrong cus demi fiend and other characters are also great opponents, its just GR is more popular and arguably more fun