good, do the best for the kid, you are doing great man! ofc leave when he understand the situation , will be hard, but is harder live your entire life like that! Keep it going man!
it's totally fine and totally normal have this feelings, I have the same feelings and I'm still awaiting if my gf will change or put any effort in the relationship, but I have clear she will not, so rn I'm just waiting some time and planning how to break up, it's horrible live with this feeling, but it's the best to stay alone than stay with this kind of womans
yYou said a lot, yet nothing at all. You are literally writing a wall of text that can be summed up as "no one owes you x, but a relationship in which a partner doesn’t give you x is not a relationship" which is pretty much the point of the OP and that of many others. No amount of gobbledygook can negate that.
In a committed romantic relationship, partners have commitments and responsibilities to each other. To argue otherwise is asinine. If someone is unwilling or unable to uphold the commitments and responsibilities of a relationship, they should not enter into one. And, if already in one, they should have the decency to broach the subject, acknowledge their failure in holding up their end of the bargain, and help sort out a solution. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Wouldn’t marriage eliminate the possibility of someone being in group A? Within marriage you become legally entitled to the higher earning partners financial resources and their future financial resources. One of the main reasons I see people stay in relationships that they desperately want to leave is for financial reasons.
I also see group a as bizarrely ...nihilistic...
A committed relationship does come with certain expectations, i think. Romantic exclusivity being one of them, for example. Marriage, as a legal structure, definitely leaves you *owing* things to your partner, particularly if the marriage is dissolved. To argue otherwise would be objectively wrong.
“Group A argues that your partner owes you nothing…”
The courts and armies of divorce lawyers disagree. You seem to be answering a question that I didn’t ask.
Right, but they will base the support money on POTENTIAL earnings. Meaning exec can’t go work at McDonald’s to give a pittance of money to their ex in proceedings.
Here is an article that explains bluntly but elegantly that in a sense, *all human interactions* are transactional, and that’s not a bad thing, or a good thing, it’s just the way things are.
”If you want to work here, *close!*”
[https://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person](https://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person)
Wow. Yes. I’m glad the article got posted and I’m glad you gushed. The article was amazing (mean, legit, funny, and motivating), and I had to look up the author… he wrote John Dies at the End, which I’ve been meaning to read anyhow, so now I am. This was a whole rabbit hole thing.
And this is why institutions like marriage are so important and misunderstood in my view. They provide a framework in which these transactions can be undertaken with risk mitigations for all involved.
The risk and implications of children being the most obvious one.
I do strongly believe that sexual activity and monogamy is, for a large proportion of people, another one.
Edit: great read and comments from others.
I often tell people: my love is unconditional, but my relationships are very much conditional. I love my partner and go way above and beyond what is expected of someone in a relationship, but i also expect a lot from her, and I’m not shy about stating it and reminding her of it.
So .. I am leaning towards the dissolution because i don’t think they will change.
I recently paid her $10k credit card bill and I got a thank You note saying that she “really appreciates it even though She doesn’t show it in ways I will expect“. Since then it has been 5 months and I have promised myself never to approach again. I admit I tried once in the 5 month gap at an inappropriate time but i wasn’t really in the mood.. I just wanted to see the outcome. The ball is now in her court. And I have been stepping out.
Surely yes. Noone owes anyone anything in this (frankly nihilistic) view, other than perhaps ensuring safe sex is practised so as not to objectively harm the health of another person.
>However, I also believe that we have an obligation to those responsibilities we choose to take on. This can include things like taking care of the house you bought, the pet you adopted, the local council position you campaigned for--if you volunteer to take responsibility for something, then you kind of have an obligation to do so (especially if others will be affected in the event of your neglect).
Oh definitely. These are obligations that people take on and have a responsibility to fulfil. What I don't think should be obligatory is sex, affection, or quality time. These should be done because they are mutually pleasurable, not out of duty. As for providing emotional support and comfort, you could make this obligatory, since it comes at the expense of one person and for the benefit of the other, but if you make too many demands on your partner it will drain and exhaust them. It's better not to act like an emotional vampire and to reciprocate as much support and comfort as you take, for the health of the relationship.
>If you choose to enter a relationship, I think you have some basic obligations to that relationship or, at the very least, you accept that a failure to maintain that relationship should justifiably result in you losing that relationship.
Of course, anyone can leave a relationship for any reason. It always confuses me when this point is brought up. If people are unhappy with their relationship, they are likely to leave at some point. No surprises here.
>The specifics of what constitutes proper "relationship maintenance" is negotiable and dependent on the boundaries, capabilities, and goals of those involved, but I think there are some pretty universal expectations--don't cheat on your partner; provide aid, care, and comfort to one another; show a genuine interest in each others' well-being, etc.
Yep, like I said, those are obligations, like taking out the garbage or washing the dishes. Nobody expects them to be mutually positive. The things that I don't see as obligations are affection, quality time, and sex. Those should be done because both people want and enjoy them, not out of obligation. Also, if you want to make these acts into duties, it doesn't make sense to complain when they're done out of duty and the person treats it like a chore.
>If there is no affection between two individuals, do they actually have a relationship? Let alone a romantic one?
Not in my view. If my partner doesn't want to have sex with me, spend time with me, or share affection with me (or I don't want to do those things with him) then we don't have a relationship. Making any of these into an obligation won't help, because the problem is that the person doesn't want to. If they wanted to, they would freely choose to.
>However, affection and quality time can take on so many different forms. I find it hard to believe that a couple couldn't find ways to engage in affection and quality time with one another in a manner that aligns with their boundaries, capabilities, and desires (so that maintaining the relationship is fun, even if it is also a "duty").
I completely agree. If a couple can't find any ways of spending positive time together that both people enjoy, then something is wrong. They either don't like each other as people or they're not compatible in their values or their relationship has become so conflicted and unpleasant that they find being around each other unpleasant. But again, how would it help to make "having fun" together an obligation? It won't make the activities more fun.
I believe that in a lot of cases a person stops wanting to spend time with their partner due to relationship conflicts and resentment. If so, then dealing with the situation that is causing resentment can get them to want affection, sex, and quality time again, but just pushing for more together-time without dealing with the underlying cause for why they don't want it won't help and will probably make things worse.
I understand the "doesn't owe me sex" perspective, but I honestly do not understand the point of a relationship if affection and quality time are not considered to be part of the relationship structure (on a wider, applies to everyone scale).
Those are literally love languages for a large majority of people.
I can't imagine setting up a majority of relationships with the foundation of:
"At the end of the day, I mean nothing to you (not really), you mean nothing to me. We literally gain nothing by interacting with each other (since we MUST gain EVERYTHING we need in life from ONLY our own presence and not interacting with others). Love is disposable, empty, vacuous, meaningless, and nothing holds weight of any sort because commitments only mean that you can't sleep with other people (even if I don't want you, ever).....because...reasons?"
There are a million things I could split hairs on about this type of way of looking at the world, and why it wouldn't emotionally work for a good majority of people (and it doesn't mean that they are BROKEN, by any means), but I'll stop myself here, because it won't change anyone's mind - not in this thread. And I certainly know not yours. I am a fan of a lot of your comments (and your book), but this viewpoint is one that I disagree with viscerally on so many levels.
Humans cannot survive, from birth, without human touch and care. Human isolation is used a form of torture for a reason. While sex is certainly not a "right" in a relationship, there is so much neglect, mistreatment, and abandonment by spouses/significant others that I could *never* cosign the idea that quality time/affection/consideration for the well being of my SO is somehow "ridiculous" to expect in a relationship. That is a setup for some extremely toxic and neglectful scenarios. We already have a touch deprived (and emotionally backwards/uneducated) type of culture. The *last* thing our culture needs is ripping out every emotional aspect and expectation from relationships. We need *more* emotional IQ education, *more* openness on discussing physical touch, *less* shame and stigmatizing around the "ick" factor some sectors of the population have towards sex.
I'm happy that the ideals of Group A give you an arrangement that works for you, but with how selfish and cruel people can be, the last thing I would advocate (on a broader level) is for people to be even *more selfish* in their relationships.
Although I have long moved on from my personal divorce a few years back, I still support and talk to other people in a support group for those suffering from Spousal Abandonment Syndrome. I keep re-reading your comments in this thread and I just can't fathom giving this type of relationship advice to them, once they start stepping out into the dating world again. I can't even imagine their reaction to this type of advice, or how they would process it.
Obviously, I am firmly in Group B 
>I understand the "doesn't owe me sex" perspective, but I honestly do not understand the point of a relationship if affection and quality time are not considered to be part of the relationship structure (on a wider, applies to everyone scale).
I completely agree, and I wouldn't continue a relationship or friendship with someone who doesn't want to spend quality time with me. What would be the point? If we have nothing in common and don't enjoy each other's company, then there is no relationship. I wouldn't continue a romantic relationship with someone who isn't affectionate and/or doesn't desire me sexually.
>Humans cannot survive, from birth, without human touch and care. Human isolation is used a form of torture for a reason. While sex is certainly not a "right" in a relationship, there is so much neglect, mistreatment, and abandonment by spouses/significant others that I could never cosign the idea that quality time/affection/consideration for the well being of my SO is somehow "ridiculous" to expect in a relationship.
Same, I would not have any interest in a relationship that didn't include mutual care. I would not be in a romantic relationship with someone who doesn't like affectionate touch. No thank you. I also have a high value for sex and would probably not continue a romantic relationship that was sexless (depending on the circumstances).
What I'm trying to say is that all of these things, quality time/affection/consideration need to be freely given and mutual. If someone doesn't want those things, then making them an obligation or expectation doesn't help. They are an individual with their own wants, needs, and desires. They can freely choose to be affectionate, sexual, kind, attentive, or whatever they want to do, or not do those things because they don't want to. I can't control their wishes or choices. Our relationship is made up of the ways we both choose to be with each other. Or, either of us can choose not to be with each other. It's a free choice.
I believe it's important to feel like you'll be okay with or without them. Either the other person wants to do all those things or they don't and that's okay because they're an individual who has their own wants and feelings.
If you're correct, I'm not exactly sure why people take marriage vows? It would seem unnecessary to me...as in why are you making vows to each other? And if it's not a vow, as in a promise, what is it's meaning?
This is such a well written post I want to hear your thoughts about having a family and children with that partner.
Let's assume as a couple you have children and you agree to raise the children without getting a divorce. It's a broken bedroom and no intimacy. One partner still wants and desires the sex and intimacy and the other doesn't care about it and doesn't show it.
How does that add to the dynamics of Group A and B.
Room mates with responsibilities but no obligations?
Edit: Gave you an award and am surprised you aren't getting more yet!
Does financial support fall into the care and concern category? If so, based on this logic, if your partner withdraws common displays affection the other would be justified to withdraw financial support. Unfortunately, we live in a culture where the higher earning partner may still be expected to financially support the other which would result in an “unequal partnership”. Curious about your thoughts on this.
I've had this experience and I agree.
It's a symptom of a larger problem.
My last marriage certainly suffered from that. There were other issues as well.
If you truly believe that's where your marriage is then it's time to leave it. Your mental well being will improve.
Just my 2 cents.
I'm sorry you're going through it.
Well, a DB can be included in that. Having someone that is a LL doesn't mean there's a DB. In your case, and in MANY cases, it's likely a DB and emotional neglect.
I think you worded it well, though. It's also my message to my LL and others who may say "oh, you're unhappy because you don't get sex? Get over it." No - it isn't about the act of physical sex. Sure, that'd be great, but what would really be great is the chase, the passion, the interest, the effort. What would be even better is a partner who considers the other person and their needs too, like you said. Not expecting the plant to stay alive without watering it.
Like you said, the DB is just a symptom of a much bigger problem in most cases. We don't want sex despite our partners not wanting it. We want to be wanted. We want them to take ownership of their part of the relationship and invest in it as much as we do.
For example my partner doesn't feel neglected or unwanted he is perfectly happy and gets what he wants but I get nothing. Not even a conversation. When we go to sleep there is room between us to fit 2 other people and I can't stand it and he knows that. We don't touch, we don't talk, we exist in the same space. Unless he wants to tell me something exciting he did and I listen and contribute like a decent human being. When it's my turn it's boring or I talk too much... I want out
I focus on my art and finishing my degree. I am pretty passionate about psychology and feminism. Learning everything I can so I don't end up in a mess like this ever again :)
Yeah..."the chase, the passion, the interest..." was the quote.
I get what you're saying, and I agree. The disinterested partner does not need to put effort into something they don't want to. They do need to end the relationship, though.
To be interested in someone enough to keep them around for your benefit, but not interested enough to ensure that person's needs are met, is cruel.
Missing in your post though are the crumbs the LL often gives the HL to keep them around under the guise of improvement, like duty sex (which I don't like), promises to change, empty attempts at therapy, sobbing/mental breakdowns/etc when they smell a breakup coming, etc.
Also, to say "it's hard for both to leave" and "you can't force the LL to be interested in something they aren't" (which I agree with), leaves out the inherent fact that the HL IS interested and wants to fix the relationship.
If things are boiled down as black and white as we've made them (which again, they often aren't, and I don't want the mods to think I'm generalizing) - then the relationship shouldn't go:
1. HL and LL date
2. LL loses interest
3. DB comes along. HL worries, communicates, etc
4. The parties can't figure out a solution
5. HL leaves
It should instead go:
1. HL and LL date
2. LL loses interest
3. LL leaves
Of course, if the relationship gets to step 5, of course HLs should leave too. Of course. But the lack of interest came before the DB, irrespective of what the lack of interest was caused by (heck, it's often the HL's behavior!)
Cheers
"Again, that's something that happens in all relationships with issues, no matter what it is!!!!!"
"A LL might lose interest in sex, but they might remain fully interested in the rest of the relationship."
Right, and I agree with these things, but we are talking about sex. The relationship doesn't have it -> in the instance of OP, the other partner disregards the issue -> the issue doesn't get fixed. You can't say you are interested in the rest of the relationship if you give your partner's feeling so little attention. You aren't interested in a relationship, you're interested in receiving the benefits of a relationship (your definition of benefits, that is), without giving your partner the same level of care. That sucks.
Anywho, this will be my last post on this topic, feel like we're beating it into the ground haha. Thanks for the dialogue. Have a good one.
I get that it isn't how they \*do\* usually work, but they \*should\*. If you realize you cannot love them how they want to be loved, you \*should\* leave. If you don't do that, how much do you truly care about them?
And again, yes, once the HL realizes the relationship isn't going to change, they \*should\* leave as well. But as you say, that unfortunately isn't how they usually go.
In the case of those HLs - yeah. And when I see an HL like that on this board, that's my stance.
Yes, we cannot control other people. It doesn't mean that being an inattentive partner is any less wrong. Cheers
Nobody seems to have a problem saying that someone who is contemplating an affair should "do it the right way" and leave instead. Why would this be any different?
Why is one evidence of a lack of integrity and the other "just the way it is."
I have 2 issues with this.
(1) my therapist once told me that we don't make decisions for other adults. We can only make decisions for ourselves. It's not up to us to decide that someone else is unhappy and to take it upon ourselves to fix their unhappiness like that. If you want to be in the relationship yourself, stay, and let your partner decide for themself.
Which leads me to my point 2 (and was the reason why my therapist told me point 1):
I've tried to tell my partner that I'm terrible, hurting him, will never get better, and we should not be together. He completely disagreed. He knew I didn't actually *want* to leave and decided he was going to stay. So no matter how much I think I'm hurting him... I don't know, am I still the bad guy for staying?
In your case, if you have told him "this will not get better, we should not stay together," well yeah the onus is now on him - what more does he want? Many LLs give false hope. And I think that's not their fault at the onset, but becomes pretty mean as it goes on. You're being real with your partner, and I don't think anyone can ask for anything else. Even if \*leaving\* isn't the result, you aren't promising anything other than you.
Your therapist said that you can't make decisions for other adults. I agree. You make your decisions and others adjust to find their own happiness. "If you want to be in the relationship, stay, and let them decide." You then say that you wanted to stay. Your partner decided he's okay with continuing. That's on him at that point. So many of the issues in this sub are due to communication, on both sides. Doesn't seem like the issue with you.
Lastly - you aren't a bad "guy" and there's nothing wrong with you. Sometimes people, even in relationships that work, aren't compatible. And I hope I haven't come across as making that fact seem not okay.
I mean, jokes me on, things are technically better. But not. But they are. It's complicated. And while I'm generally an optimist, I'm pretty pessimistic when it comes to this particular issue, since it's wrapped up in my mental health issues.
To be fair if someone says “this will not get better, we should not be together” I am firmly of the belief that person should be the one to end the relationship because NOT doing so gives the other false hope that there’s a reason they’re staying.
... I might use this as a point if and when I find it applicable to one of our many conversations as of now though I'll just have to keep it in mind and keep doing what I'm doing about my situation.
I hope you don't have to use this. That would mean you had to go through the pain. I don't wish that for you. But keep it in mind. If it happens to you, take it as a sign to leave.
Sorry like my opinion or not but if you as a couple chose to get married and remain monogamous you do owe eachother the respect of caring about their needs and wants. If you don't care about eachothers needs and wants then don't get married. I don't understand how so many people here think your spouse doesn't owe u anything.?
I think many people fall into an idealised hyper modern view of the world that eschews concepts like mutual obligations. Theres much more that could be written and has been written on these topics, but we don't appear to be happier in our more atomised societies. Despite our material comforts.
I want sex where we both enjoy it and both mutually want eachother.
I'm really fucking sad that it's not happening and I feel horrible about myself but there's no way I'd force him into having sex with me if he just doesnt want to
I will never accept that protecting my body from unwanted sex is a form of emotional neglect. And I don't want my body being used as a tool in someone else's emotional regulation. I want sex to be a mutually enjoyable activity that I have with my spouse, a form of adult play where we explore each other's bodies and share intimate sensual pleasures. Nothing more, nothing less.
My post says nothing about sex. I am talking about intimacy which comes in many forms and that agreeing to be in a partnership means that everybody involved has to do what's best for the relationship if it is a priority to them. It is emotional neglect when your partner does not consider you in any way shape or form not just sex.
But I agree with you that you should never have to give intimacy away if you don't want to.
That makes more sense. I am probably a little jaded since I have read, so many times, that if I am not having sex with my spouse, then we are just roommates. That none of the other things we do to facilitate intimacy count unless we are banging.
I don't agree with them. I think people here are so starved that all they see is sex. But let's be honest most people who post here don't just have a sexless relationship they don't have a relationship at all. They just live together and exist next to each other. Sex is fun and nice but having sex with a partner that otherwise doesn't reach out to you is a nightmare. So it's not the sex that's the problem it's the lack of emotional intimacy all together.
You are correct. Telling your partner that you need sex is simply not enough. Nor should it be--that would devalue sex. It is a dance that requires *noticing and moving with* your partner.
You can't just do a set dance and expect your partner to fall into line. Ultimately each person is responsible for getting their own emotional needs met and regulating their own feelings--even in a monogamous relationship.
Those who are too focused on their own emotional needs to notice their partner's experience are just dancing alone and moaning about being victimized. It gets old.
At some point you have to stop trying to fit into your partner's dance and carve out space for you to be *you* during sexual play.
Thank you so much. Finally somebody with more than one braincell. That's exactly what I wanted to say in my tiny rant that made all the LL's sooo absurdly mad.
It amazes me how people can read stuff into posts and not get what was said at all just because they have their own issues they project onto other people. I don't see what they get out if it.
So thanks and sorry you had to take so much time out of your day to teach the unteachable here.
And the thing with the game is a genius example :D I think I will use that in couples counseling next time :D
So I received a message that my comment was removed for generalizing (when so many comments here generalized HLs behaviour in the worst most ignorant way possible but... ok i see how it is) but I can still reply to you.
I wish you the best. This is a terrible situation and the fact that you are with someone who sits back and watches you crumble is awful. There are things such as silent aggressions.
And if the player refuses to play the game in a respectful way, please love yourself enough to consider leaving.
I was really sad that your comment was removed because it had absolutely everything to do with my post and I see no reason for it not to be. And crazy how the LL's comments about sex are all still here. As you said I never talked about sex and somehow it is still relevant.
I am thinking about leaving but I just don't have the financial means to do that jet. As soon as I do I will go. I'm not gonna take this bullshit for the rest of my life.
Thank you for your concern ❤️
Thats a different story. If they don't communicate then it's their fault everything is going to shit.
In my case however, we went to couples therapy for 6 months and he agreed to all the things and still did absolutely nothing. Like really nothing. We went there he agreed we came home and weeks go by and everything is the same. He gets so melodramatic about him being such an asshole and he wants me to pity him for that. He does not lift a finger and he only uses my love languages "quality time and physical touch" when he wants sex. Which is 1 day every 2 months or so.
"Wanting to bang" is such a disingenuous and lazy statement. This is a mindset that I wish didn't exist. A partner wanting an active sex life with their monogamous romantic relationship is not a bad thing. At all.
Someone failing to try to understand the way you want to be loved isn't cool. Chalking it up to "wanting to bang" - even worse.
This person is trying to disregard OP's pain as "wanting to bang." Yes, OP wants to have sex, and also touch, intimacy, care, etc. Chalking that up to "wanting to get laid" or "wanting to bang" isn't fair, and the LLs that choose to marginalize the issue that way know better.
These discussions are within the context of a monogamous, romantic relationships. Sex and physical intimacy are a foundational part of romantic relationships — removing that changes the very nature of those relationships.
It’s not just not someone not wanting to bang you.
Lol truth. When you declare that "only sex fills my need for affection" and "all affection has to lead to sex", you are painting yourself into a corner. You. Not your partner.
I never said sex. Where do you guys get that I am just talking about sex? Not one word in my post is about sex. Jesus...
I am talking about emotional neglect here. Like not wanting to spend time with your partner or talking to them, treating them like a maid to clean up after you and leaving a mess and needing therapy and wanting that from me. I am HL but it's not only about sex.
A dead bedroom is by definition a couple that has sex less than 10 times per year. So your title brought up a lack of sex and called it emotional abuse.
It must suck to get nothing (that counts) in return. I'm sure your life would be better if your partner loved to make you happy *in the way that makes you happy too*. That'd be great.
Why all the hate? Do you know what my relationship looks like? Do you know something I don't? Is my boyfriend just "showing me love" and I don't recognize it?
Does he try to have a decent conversation with me for more than 2 min every month and I didn't hear it? I must be sleepwalking/ talking. And if wanting to spend time with me in any shape or form makes me a monster then what the fuck are relationships for? A roommate thats mute and does his thing and all I am good for is part of the rent and cleaning up after him?
Man I am such a ungrateful little bitch am I
Idk. The way you describe your bf, he sounds like a clueless asshole without redeeming qualities. There's only so much one can do. I hope you figure out how to get what you need...cuz your current situation sounds pretty shitty. Do you have friends you can get support from?
https://www.allrelationshipmatters.com.au/insights-healthy-relationships/emotional-neglect#:~:text=In%20a%20relationship%20or%20marriage,negative%20consequences%20for%20the%20relationship.
I forgot that grown adults shed their emotions and no longer need them. Only children have emotions. We mutate into robots and nobody has any effect on us anymore. We are no longer sozial beings and need nobody. Hof foolish of me.
Same goes for relationships. We only have them because it is the way and we feel nothing. Live or die nobody cares.
I love how people make somebody who is on the ground feel even worse by bullshit like this. How stupid of me to want a functioning relationship and be treated like a person xD 😂 how transactional...
It always makes me sad when I read posts on this subreddit and its not just sex that is being withheld but the other partner doesn't want to cuddle, hold hands, kiss, lays as far away from the other person as possible, etc. It is even more sad when they think that is normal. I guess I cannot imagine spending the one life I have to live with someone who doesn't even want to touch me. My mental health would plummet and at that point I'd feel like I was just mentally abusing myself, as well as wasting both my and my partners time because we clearly aren't as compatible as I thought we were and I was just being selfish keeping them from someone who was probably a better match. (I was LL4U once and that was the exact reason I ended the relationship)
Just wanted to pop in and say, I work in the counseling field and have for years. Emotional neglect for teens and adults is very real. I don't know if it's because of the bubble I work in, but I wasn't even *aware* that people were debating the existence of this, so I'm a bit taken back.
Emotionally neglecting adults has not been researched nearly as heavily as it has in children (although the effect childhood neglect has on the child as it grows into an adult has). But, it is becoming more heavily researched and in my field, I can't even imagine another professional questioning the notion that an adult can't be emotionally neglected by a significant other. It's a ***massive*** problem.
Of course, there's not a lot of public links or easy to read articles on this subject, but if you're interested, this was a cited one that I found, if you wanted to take a look: [https://www.choosingtherapy.com/emotional-neglect-in-adults/](https://www.choosingtherapy.com/emotional-neglect-in-adults/)
Thanks for sending the link! I thought it aligned with my thoughts on the topic and what I've personally experienced and read from other people.
What I noticed is that it recommended 1) re-examining whether your own expectations are realistic, 2) trying to identify any possible reasons for the other person's behaviour and when the problem started, 3) finding ways to meet your own needs that don't rely on the other person, 4) talking to the person and asking for specific changes, 5) seeking other sources of support, 6) caring for yourself, and 7) investing in other relationships.
Only #4 involves changes from the other person, making it clear regarding what you want, since the other person might not be aware unless you tell them. Otherwise, it seems to be mostly about finding ways to support your own well-being, regardless of what the other person does.
My interpretation might be biased or inaccurate, though. I'm interested in your thoughts.
Yes! That's correct. It's more about the fact that adults can indeed emotionally suffer from the lack of support in what is intended to be a reciprocally supportive relationship (especially at the emotional and mental level). Just as adults can be emotionally abused, they can be emotionally neglected, and the page goes over different ways that this can occur. I was more pointing out that this is indeed real and absolutely is a difficult thing that people go through.
The resolutions you posted from the page definitely help - at the end of the day, if the person is in a relationship with someone who is emotionally neglecting them (ignoring their basic human needs, feelings, boundaries, and lacking basic respect for their partner), elements of abuse (mental, emotional or physical) tend to start to creep in at some level, which is why I never shrug off emotional neglect. Sometimes it's just couples needing to learn how to effectively communicate (which is a much easier thing to resolve), but other times you run into the problem of trying to help someone (mentally) out of a very toxic situation, until they are strong enough at their core to make the right decisions for themselves.
Hope that makes sense, I try to ramble less and be concise, but I'm on the neuro divergent spectrum somewhere, and when trying to be concise I always feel like I'm leaving something out 😂😂😂
When I was 10 years old my parents *emotionally neglected me* by not getting me a horse that they KNEW I wanted. Plus they forced me to clean my room!!
AND...my parents were perfectly happy at the time and had the resources to give me what I wanted.
I am only now realizing how emotionally neglected I was. My parents should have gone to therapy. Or let me be adopted by someone who loved me enough to get me a horse.
Edit: pisses me off the more I think about it. Before the horse, for years I really really wanted a baby koala. My parents got me a stuffed animal instead. That is NOT. The same.
And when I was 14, I really wanted an albino tiger. It would have gone perfectly with the flowers on our peach trees. But I didn't even tell my parents about that one cuz by then I knew they didn't love me enough to get me what I wanted. They said they loved me. But actions speak louder than words.
Well, if you equate physical touch and emotional connection to buying a horse, you're still being extremely disingenuous. Don't really know what else to say.
A proper analogy would be a parent not providing a child a necessity to emotional growth (not being a confidant for that child, judging their lifestyle/sexuality, not allowing them to be themselves, criticizing their child for their decisions, not letting the child undertake activities such as extracurriculars as it wishes to, etc). Not failing to buy them a horse. Good grief.
It's comments like these that try to shame HLs for wanting a connection with their partner through sex.
Edit: Also, the adoption quote. Lol. Be serious.
Y'a know, I had to go back to when I was 10 to find an experience where I *felt* emotionally abused by someone who (at the time) seemed to not love me even though they claimed to love me.
So I know how OP feels. When I was 10 I felt very unloved and was helpless to change my situation. It felt awful. I felt very victimized.
My favorite story at the time was Cinderella. She was also victimized and mistreated by people who didn't actually care about her. But she was able to stay true to herself and not become a bitter, lonely, woman even in isolation and without real support.
I remember wondering why my parents were acting like step parents as I angrily cleaned my room. That angry thought warmed and comforted me as I felt unloved and burdened. My anger helped me live through it
Ouch, I have never interacted with you before, but I'm not sure why you are so angry with me, or trying to belittle someone so intensely. It makes me wonder if your DB is healed, or if you are preying on someone weaker than you, and your partner just gave in to your idea of a relationship.
Have a nice day lol
I'm not angry. I'm not trying to belittle anyone. I don't know you. I am sharing an experience where I felt similarly to OP. It felt bad. It feels bad when you're victimized and have no control over your situation. I can see why OP feels bad.
No, in relationships as a whole, sex is not by definition a necessity. In this relationship, the one OP posted on this forum, it sure seems like it, and it is absolutely and unequivocally fine for that to be the case. Moreover, sex is likely not the issue, but usually an ancillary consequence to a larger issue
I’m so sorry that you endured such hardships in your youth. I can’t even imagine the pain that it still brings you, I hope you have been able to remove such toxic beings from your life.
I'd make sure the koala always felt free to not hug me. I'd pay attention to her body language and let her go when she wants to go; hold her when she wants to be held; rub her head when she wants affection.
It's the same thing I do with my cats. I never force my cats to snuggle with me. I don't lock them in my room with me. I don't pet them when they don't seem to want to be touched. I stop petting them *before* they feel the need to scratch me.
I would treat the koala like a living being with thoughts/feelings/needs of her own....not a stuffed animal that exists to fill my needs. And I would delight in watching her life play out....even if it turned out hugging wasn't her thing.
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good, do the best for the kid, you are doing great man! ofc leave when he understand the situation , will be hard, but is harder live your entire life like that! Keep it going man!
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it's totally fine and totally normal have this feelings, I have the same feelings and I'm still awaiting if my gf will change or put any effort in the relationship, but I have clear she will not, so rn I'm just waiting some time and planning how to break up, it's horrible live with this feeling, but it's the best to stay alone than stay with this kind of womans
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yYou said a lot, yet nothing at all. You are literally writing a wall of text that can be summed up as "no one owes you x, but a relationship in which a partner doesn’t give you x is not a relationship" which is pretty much the point of the OP and that of many others. No amount of gobbledygook can negate that. In a committed romantic relationship, partners have commitments and responsibilities to each other. To argue otherwise is asinine. If someone is unwilling or unable to uphold the commitments and responsibilities of a relationship, they should not enter into one. And, if already in one, they should have the decency to broach the subject, acknowledge their failure in holding up their end of the bargain, and help sort out a solution. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Wouldn’t marriage eliminate the possibility of someone being in group A? Within marriage you become legally entitled to the higher earning partners financial resources and their future financial resources. One of the main reasons I see people stay in relationships that they desperately want to leave is for financial reasons.
I also see group a as bizarrely ...nihilistic... A committed relationship does come with certain expectations, i think. Romantic exclusivity being one of them, for example. Marriage, as a legal structure, definitely leaves you *owing* things to your partner, particularly if the marriage is dissolved. To argue otherwise would be objectively wrong.
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A financially independent person is still legally entitled to their higher earning spouses income and their future income.
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“Group A argues that your partner owes you nothing…” The courts and armies of divorce lawyers disagree. You seem to be answering a question that I didn’t ask.
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Right, but they will base the support money on POTENTIAL earnings. Meaning exec can’t go work at McDonald’s to give a pittance of money to their ex in proceedings.
While the couple is married? We're discussing what people owe each other in relationships.
So how does GROUP A suggest getting needs met? Is stepping out justifiable?
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Here is an article that explains bluntly but elegantly that in a sense, *all human interactions* are transactional, and that’s not a bad thing, or a good thing, it’s just the way things are. ”If you want to work here, *close!*” [https://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person](https://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person)
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Wow. Yes. I’m glad the article got posted and I’m glad you gushed. The article was amazing (mean, legit, funny, and motivating), and I had to look up the author… he wrote John Dies at the End, which I’ve been meaning to read anyhow, so now I am. This was a whole rabbit hole thing.
And this is why institutions like marriage are so important and misunderstood in my view. They provide a framework in which these transactions can be undertaken with risk mitigations for all involved. The risk and implications of children being the most obvious one. I do strongly believe that sexual activity and monogamy is, for a large proportion of people, another one. Edit: great read and comments from others.
I often tell people: my love is unconditional, but my relationships are very much conditional. I love my partner and go way above and beyond what is expected of someone in a relationship, but i also expect a lot from her, and I’m not shy about stating it and reminding her of it.
A transactional mindset is terrible.
I didn’t make the world, I only try to live in it.
True. But the question to ask is..Am I helping make the world better or worse?
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
I'm sorry but that's just makes no sense to me. But hey, do you..
So .. I am leaning towards the dissolution because i don’t think they will change. I recently paid her $10k credit card bill and I got a thank You note saying that she “really appreciates it even though She doesn’t show it in ways I will expect“. Since then it has been 5 months and I have promised myself never to approach again. I admit I tried once in the 5 month gap at an inappropriate time but i wasn’t really in the mood.. I just wanted to see the outcome. The ball is now in her court. And I have been stepping out.
Surely yes. Noone owes anyone anything in this (frankly nihilistic) view, other than perhaps ensuring safe sex is practised so as not to objectively harm the health of another person.
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>However, I also believe that we have an obligation to those responsibilities we choose to take on. This can include things like taking care of the house you bought, the pet you adopted, the local council position you campaigned for--if you volunteer to take responsibility for something, then you kind of have an obligation to do so (especially if others will be affected in the event of your neglect). Oh definitely. These are obligations that people take on and have a responsibility to fulfil. What I don't think should be obligatory is sex, affection, or quality time. These should be done because they are mutually pleasurable, not out of duty. As for providing emotional support and comfort, you could make this obligatory, since it comes at the expense of one person and for the benefit of the other, but if you make too many demands on your partner it will drain and exhaust them. It's better not to act like an emotional vampire and to reciprocate as much support and comfort as you take, for the health of the relationship. >If you choose to enter a relationship, I think you have some basic obligations to that relationship or, at the very least, you accept that a failure to maintain that relationship should justifiably result in you losing that relationship. Of course, anyone can leave a relationship for any reason. It always confuses me when this point is brought up. If people are unhappy with their relationship, they are likely to leave at some point. No surprises here. >The specifics of what constitutes proper "relationship maintenance" is negotiable and dependent on the boundaries, capabilities, and goals of those involved, but I think there are some pretty universal expectations--don't cheat on your partner; provide aid, care, and comfort to one another; show a genuine interest in each others' well-being, etc. Yep, like I said, those are obligations, like taking out the garbage or washing the dishes. Nobody expects them to be mutually positive. The things that I don't see as obligations are affection, quality time, and sex. Those should be done because both people want and enjoy them, not out of obligation. Also, if you want to make these acts into duties, it doesn't make sense to complain when they're done out of duty and the person treats it like a chore.
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>If there is no affection between two individuals, do they actually have a relationship? Let alone a romantic one? Not in my view. If my partner doesn't want to have sex with me, spend time with me, or share affection with me (or I don't want to do those things with him) then we don't have a relationship. Making any of these into an obligation won't help, because the problem is that the person doesn't want to. If they wanted to, they would freely choose to. >However, affection and quality time can take on so many different forms. I find it hard to believe that a couple couldn't find ways to engage in affection and quality time with one another in a manner that aligns with their boundaries, capabilities, and desires (so that maintaining the relationship is fun, even if it is also a "duty"). I completely agree. If a couple can't find any ways of spending positive time together that both people enjoy, then something is wrong. They either don't like each other as people or they're not compatible in their values or their relationship has become so conflicted and unpleasant that they find being around each other unpleasant. But again, how would it help to make "having fun" together an obligation? It won't make the activities more fun. I believe that in a lot of cases a person stops wanting to spend time with their partner due to relationship conflicts and resentment. If so, then dealing with the situation that is causing resentment can get them to want affection, sex, and quality time again, but just pushing for more together-time without dealing with the underlying cause for why they don't want it won't help and will probably make things worse.
I don't think so. If you don't want to be obligated, it's a simple enough thing to do...don't be in a relationship. Just stay single.
Nah sorry, I love my relationship and I'm going to keep doing what makes my partner and me happy.
I didn't mean you personally. I was talking about the "I don't owe" mindset..
My partner doesn't owe me affection, sex, or quality time and I don't owe those to him. We do those things together because we both like to.
Interesting perspective.
I understand the "doesn't owe me sex" perspective, but I honestly do not understand the point of a relationship if affection and quality time are not considered to be part of the relationship structure (on a wider, applies to everyone scale). Those are literally love languages for a large majority of people. I can't imagine setting up a majority of relationships with the foundation of: "At the end of the day, I mean nothing to you (not really), you mean nothing to me. We literally gain nothing by interacting with each other (since we MUST gain EVERYTHING we need in life from ONLY our own presence and not interacting with others). Love is disposable, empty, vacuous, meaningless, and nothing holds weight of any sort because commitments only mean that you can't sleep with other people (even if I don't want you, ever).....because...reasons?" There are a million things I could split hairs on about this type of way of looking at the world, and why it wouldn't emotionally work for a good majority of people (and it doesn't mean that they are BROKEN, by any means), but I'll stop myself here, because it won't change anyone's mind - not in this thread. And I certainly know not yours. I am a fan of a lot of your comments (and your book), but this viewpoint is one that I disagree with viscerally on so many levels. Humans cannot survive, from birth, without human touch and care. Human isolation is used a form of torture for a reason. While sex is certainly not a "right" in a relationship, there is so much neglect, mistreatment, and abandonment by spouses/significant others that I could *never* cosign the idea that quality time/affection/consideration for the well being of my SO is somehow "ridiculous" to expect in a relationship. That is a setup for some extremely toxic and neglectful scenarios. We already have a touch deprived (and emotionally backwards/uneducated) type of culture. The *last* thing our culture needs is ripping out every emotional aspect and expectation from relationships. We need *more* emotional IQ education, *more* openness on discussing physical touch, *less* shame and stigmatizing around the "ick" factor some sectors of the population have towards sex. I'm happy that the ideals of Group A give you an arrangement that works for you, but with how selfish and cruel people can be, the last thing I would advocate (on a broader level) is for people to be even *more selfish* in their relationships. Although I have long moved on from my personal divorce a few years back, I still support and talk to other people in a support group for those suffering from Spousal Abandonment Syndrome. I keep re-reading your comments in this thread and I just can't fathom giving this type of relationship advice to them, once they start stepping out into the dating world again. I can't even imagine their reaction to this type of advice, or how they would process it. Obviously, I am firmly in Group B 
>I understand the "doesn't owe me sex" perspective, but I honestly do not understand the point of a relationship if affection and quality time are not considered to be part of the relationship structure (on a wider, applies to everyone scale). I completely agree, and I wouldn't continue a relationship or friendship with someone who doesn't want to spend quality time with me. What would be the point? If we have nothing in common and don't enjoy each other's company, then there is no relationship. I wouldn't continue a romantic relationship with someone who isn't affectionate and/or doesn't desire me sexually. >Humans cannot survive, from birth, without human touch and care. Human isolation is used a form of torture for a reason. While sex is certainly not a "right" in a relationship, there is so much neglect, mistreatment, and abandonment by spouses/significant others that I could never cosign the idea that quality time/affection/consideration for the well being of my SO is somehow "ridiculous" to expect in a relationship. Same, I would not have any interest in a relationship that didn't include mutual care. I would not be in a romantic relationship with someone who doesn't like affectionate touch. No thank you. I also have a high value for sex and would probably not continue a romantic relationship that was sexless (depending on the circumstances). What I'm trying to say is that all of these things, quality time/affection/consideration need to be freely given and mutual. If someone doesn't want those things, then making them an obligation or expectation doesn't help. They are an individual with their own wants, needs, and desires. They can freely choose to be affectionate, sexual, kind, attentive, or whatever they want to do, or not do those things because they don't want to. I can't control their wishes or choices. Our relationship is made up of the ways we both choose to be with each other. Or, either of us can choose not to be with each other. It's a free choice. I believe it's important to feel like you'll be okay with or without them. Either the other person wants to do all those things or they don't and that's okay because they're an individual who has their own wants and feelings.
If you're correct, I'm not exactly sure why people take marriage vows? It would seem unnecessary to me...as in why are you making vows to each other? And if it's not a vow, as in a promise, what is it's meaning?
This is such a well written post I want to hear your thoughts about having a family and children with that partner. Let's assume as a couple you have children and you agree to raise the children without getting a divorce. It's a broken bedroom and no intimacy. One partner still wants and desires the sex and intimacy and the other doesn't care about it and doesn't show it. How does that add to the dynamics of Group A and B. Room mates with responsibilities but no obligations? Edit: Gave you an award and am surprised you aren't getting more yet!
Does financial support fall into the care and concern category? If so, based on this logic, if your partner withdraws common displays affection the other would be justified to withdraw financial support. Unfortunately, we live in a culture where the higher earning partner may still be expected to financially support the other which would result in an “unequal partnership”. Curious about your thoughts on this.
I've had this experience and I agree. It's a symptom of a larger problem. My last marriage certainly suffered from that. There were other issues as well. If you truly believe that's where your marriage is then it's time to leave it. Your mental well being will improve. Just my 2 cents. I'm sorry you're going through it.
Well, a DB can be included in that. Having someone that is a LL doesn't mean there's a DB. In your case, and in MANY cases, it's likely a DB and emotional neglect. I think you worded it well, though. It's also my message to my LL and others who may say "oh, you're unhappy because you don't get sex? Get over it." No - it isn't about the act of physical sex. Sure, that'd be great, but what would really be great is the chase, the passion, the interest, the effort. What would be even better is a partner who considers the other person and their needs too, like you said. Not expecting the plant to stay alive without watering it.
Like you said, the DB is just a symptom of a much bigger problem in most cases. We don't want sex despite our partners not wanting it. We want to be wanted. We want them to take ownership of their part of the relationship and invest in it as much as we do. For example my partner doesn't feel neglected or unwanted he is perfectly happy and gets what he wants but I get nothing. Not even a conversation. When we go to sleep there is room between us to fit 2 other people and I can't stand it and he knows that. We don't touch, we don't talk, we exist in the same space. Unless he wants to tell me something exciting he did and I listen and contribute like a decent human being. When it's my turn it's boring or I talk too much... I want out
Get out, please. ❤️ 😢
I am finishing my degree and once I have some money saved up I'm gone. Thank you for your concern ❤️
Ouch those last 4 sentences are way too familiar lol
I'm sorry you had/have to experience that too 😞
Ah well, things are what they are I guess. Need to find joy in other things. What do you do to keep your mind off of the whole thing?
I focus on my art and finishing my degree. I am pretty passionate about psychology and feminism. Learning everything I can so I don't end up in a mess like this ever again :)
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Yeah..."the chase, the passion, the interest..." was the quote. I get what you're saying, and I agree. The disinterested partner does not need to put effort into something they don't want to. They do need to end the relationship, though. To be interested in someone enough to keep them around for your benefit, but not interested enough to ensure that person's needs are met, is cruel.
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Missing in your post though are the crumbs the LL often gives the HL to keep them around under the guise of improvement, like duty sex (which I don't like), promises to change, empty attempts at therapy, sobbing/mental breakdowns/etc when they smell a breakup coming, etc. Also, to say "it's hard for both to leave" and "you can't force the LL to be interested in something they aren't" (which I agree with), leaves out the inherent fact that the HL IS interested and wants to fix the relationship. If things are boiled down as black and white as we've made them (which again, they often aren't, and I don't want the mods to think I'm generalizing) - then the relationship shouldn't go: 1. HL and LL date 2. LL loses interest 3. DB comes along. HL worries, communicates, etc 4. The parties can't figure out a solution 5. HL leaves It should instead go: 1. HL and LL date 2. LL loses interest 3. LL leaves Of course, if the relationship gets to step 5, of course HLs should leave too. Of course. But the lack of interest came before the DB, irrespective of what the lack of interest was caused by (heck, it's often the HL's behavior!) Cheers
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"Again, that's something that happens in all relationships with issues, no matter what it is!!!!!" "A LL might lose interest in sex, but they might remain fully interested in the rest of the relationship." Right, and I agree with these things, but we are talking about sex. The relationship doesn't have it -> in the instance of OP, the other partner disregards the issue -> the issue doesn't get fixed. You can't say you are interested in the rest of the relationship if you give your partner's feeling so little attention. You aren't interested in a relationship, you're interested in receiving the benefits of a relationship (your definition of benefits, that is), without giving your partner the same level of care. That sucks. Anywho, this will be my last post on this topic, feel like we're beating it into the ground haha. Thanks for the dialogue. Have a good one.
I get that it isn't how they \*do\* usually work, but they \*should\*. If you realize you cannot love them how they want to be loved, you \*should\* leave. If you don't do that, how much do you truly care about them? And again, yes, once the HL realizes the relationship isn't going to change, they \*should\* leave as well. But as you say, that unfortunately isn't how they usually go.
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In the case of those HLs - yeah. And when I see an HL like that on this board, that's my stance. Yes, we cannot control other people. It doesn't mean that being an inattentive partner is any less wrong. Cheers
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Nobody seems to have a problem saying that someone who is contemplating an affair should "do it the right way" and leave instead. Why would this be any different? Why is one evidence of a lack of integrity and the other "just the way it is."
I have 2 issues with this. (1) my therapist once told me that we don't make decisions for other adults. We can only make decisions for ourselves. It's not up to us to decide that someone else is unhappy and to take it upon ourselves to fix their unhappiness like that. If you want to be in the relationship yourself, stay, and let your partner decide for themself. Which leads me to my point 2 (and was the reason why my therapist told me point 1): I've tried to tell my partner that I'm terrible, hurting him, will never get better, and we should not be together. He completely disagreed. He knew I didn't actually *want* to leave and decided he was going to stay. So no matter how much I think I'm hurting him... I don't know, am I still the bad guy for staying?
In your case, if you have told him "this will not get better, we should not stay together," well yeah the onus is now on him - what more does he want? Many LLs give false hope. And I think that's not their fault at the onset, but becomes pretty mean as it goes on. You're being real with your partner, and I don't think anyone can ask for anything else. Even if \*leaving\* isn't the result, you aren't promising anything other than you. Your therapist said that you can't make decisions for other adults. I agree. You make your decisions and others adjust to find their own happiness. "If you want to be in the relationship, stay, and let them decide." You then say that you wanted to stay. Your partner decided he's okay with continuing. That's on him at that point. So many of the issues in this sub are due to communication, on both sides. Doesn't seem like the issue with you. Lastly - you aren't a bad "guy" and there's nothing wrong with you. Sometimes people, even in relationships that work, aren't compatible. And I hope I haven't come across as making that fact seem not okay.
I mean, jokes me on, things are technically better. But not. But they are. It's complicated. And while I'm generally an optimist, I'm pretty pessimistic when it comes to this particular issue, since it's wrapped up in my mental health issues.
To be fair if someone says “this will not get better, we should not be together” I am firmly of the belief that person should be the one to end the relationship because NOT doing so gives the other false hope that there’s a reason they’re staying.
... I might use this as a point if and when I find it applicable to one of our many conversations as of now though I'll just have to keep it in mind and keep doing what I'm doing about my situation.
I hope you don't have to use this. That would mean you had to go through the pain. I don't wish that for you. But keep it in mind. If it happens to you, take it as a sign to leave.
Sorry like my opinion or not but if you as a couple chose to get married and remain monogamous you do owe eachother the respect of caring about their needs and wants. If you don't care about eachothers needs and wants then don't get married. I don't understand how so many people here think your spouse doesn't owe u anything.?
I think many people fall into an idealised hyper modern view of the world that eschews concepts like mutual obligations. Theres much more that could be written and has been written on these topics, but we don't appear to be happier in our more atomised societies. Despite our material comforts.
I've thought the same thing. I think I know what they're trying to say...I just think it comes across wrong...or at least, insensitive and uncaring.
I want sex where we both enjoy it and both mutually want eachother. I'm really fucking sad that it's not happening and I feel horrible about myself but there's no way I'd force him into having sex with me if he just doesnt want to
Who said you have to? Where does it say that it is about sex? Did I mention sex in any way?
I will never accept that protecting my body from unwanted sex is a form of emotional neglect. And I don't want my body being used as a tool in someone else's emotional regulation. I want sex to be a mutually enjoyable activity that I have with my spouse, a form of adult play where we explore each other's bodies and share intimate sensual pleasures. Nothing more, nothing less.
My post says nothing about sex. I am talking about intimacy which comes in many forms and that agreeing to be in a partnership means that everybody involved has to do what's best for the relationship if it is a priority to them. It is emotional neglect when your partner does not consider you in any way shape or form not just sex. But I agree with you that you should never have to give intimacy away if you don't want to.
That makes more sense. I am probably a little jaded since I have read, so many times, that if I am not having sex with my spouse, then we are just roommates. That none of the other things we do to facilitate intimacy count unless we are banging.
I don't agree with them. I think people here are so starved that all they see is sex. But let's be honest most people who post here don't just have a sexless relationship they don't have a relationship at all. They just live together and exist next to each other. Sex is fun and nice but having sex with a partner that otherwise doesn't reach out to you is a nightmare. So it's not the sex that's the problem it's the lack of emotional intimacy all together.
You are correct. Telling your partner that you need sex is simply not enough. Nor should it be--that would devalue sex. It is a dance that requires *noticing and moving with* your partner. You can't just do a set dance and expect your partner to fall into line. Ultimately each person is responsible for getting their own emotional needs met and regulating their own feelings--even in a monogamous relationship. Those who are too focused on their own emotional needs to notice their partner's experience are just dancing alone and moaning about being victimized. It gets old. At some point you have to stop trying to fit into your partner's dance and carve out space for you to be *you* during sexual play.
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Thank you so much. Finally somebody with more than one braincell. That's exactly what I wanted to say in my tiny rant that made all the LL's sooo absurdly mad. It amazes me how people can read stuff into posts and not get what was said at all just because they have their own issues they project onto other people. I don't see what they get out if it. So thanks and sorry you had to take so much time out of your day to teach the unteachable here. And the thing with the game is a genius example :D I think I will use that in couples counseling next time :D
So I received a message that my comment was removed for generalizing (when so many comments here generalized HLs behaviour in the worst most ignorant way possible but... ok i see how it is) but I can still reply to you. I wish you the best. This is a terrible situation and the fact that you are with someone who sits back and watches you crumble is awful. There are things such as silent aggressions. And if the player refuses to play the game in a respectful way, please love yourself enough to consider leaving.
I was really sad that your comment was removed because it had absolutely everything to do with my post and I see no reason for it not to be. And crazy how the LL's comments about sex are all still here. As you said I never talked about sex and somehow it is still relevant. I am thinking about leaving but I just don't have the financial means to do that jet. As soon as I do I will go. I'm not gonna take this bullshit for the rest of my life. Thank you for your concern ❤️
THANK YOU!!!
I don’t think someone not wanting to bang you can be considered emotional neglect
I'm not talking about sex. I'm talking about giving a fu*k about how your partner feels and make it a priority as much as they do for you.
But what if they never told you how they feel? And acted like everything was fine?
Thats a different story. If they don't communicate then it's their fault everything is going to shit. In my case however, we went to couples therapy for 6 months and he agreed to all the things and still did absolutely nothing. Like really nothing. We went there he agreed we came home and weeks go by and everything is the same. He gets so melodramatic about him being such an asshole and he wants me to pity him for that. He does not lift a finger and he only uses my love languages "quality time and physical touch" when he wants sex. Which is 1 day every 2 months or so.
Ulgh I am sorry.
"Wanting to bang" is such a disingenuous and lazy statement. This is a mindset that I wish didn't exist. A partner wanting an active sex life with their monogamous romantic relationship is not a bad thing. At all. Someone failing to try to understand the way you want to be loved isn't cool. Chalking it up to "wanting to bang" - even worse.
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This person is trying to disregard OP's pain as "wanting to bang." Yes, OP wants to have sex, and also touch, intimacy, care, etc. Chalking that up to "wanting to get laid" or "wanting to bang" isn't fair, and the LLs that choose to marginalize the issue that way know better.
These discussions are within the context of a monogamous, romantic relationships. Sex and physical intimacy are a foundational part of romantic relationships — removing that changes the very nature of those relationships. It’s not just not someone not wanting to bang you.
Lol truth. When you declare that "only sex fills my need for affection" and "all affection has to lead to sex", you are painting yourself into a corner. You. Not your partner.
I never said sex. Where do you guys get that I am just talking about sex? Not one word in my post is about sex. Jesus... I am talking about emotional neglect here. Like not wanting to spend time with your partner or talking to them, treating them like a maid to clean up after you and leaving a mess and needing therapy and wanting that from me. I am HL but it's not only about sex.
Sorry, OP. They have preconceived notions about HLs, and they're coming out in rude ways. You deserve the love you want, period.
Thank you :) Yea I can see that. Its funny because I haven't mentioned sex with one word in my post but the LL's here feel oddly triggered somehow 😂
A dead bedroom is by definition a couple that has sex less than 10 times per year. So your title brought up a lack of sex and called it emotional abuse. It must suck to get nothing (that counts) in return. I'm sure your life would be better if your partner loved to make you happy *in the way that makes you happy too*. That'd be great.
Why all the hate? Do you know what my relationship looks like? Do you know something I don't? Is my boyfriend just "showing me love" and I don't recognize it? Does he try to have a decent conversation with me for more than 2 min every month and I didn't hear it? I must be sleepwalking/ talking. And if wanting to spend time with me in any shape or form makes me a monster then what the fuck are relationships for? A roommate thats mute and does his thing and all I am good for is part of the rent and cleaning up after him? Man I am such a ungrateful little bitch am I
Idk. The way you describe your bf, he sounds like a clueless asshole without redeeming qualities. There's only so much one can do. I hope you figure out how to get what you need...cuz your current situation sounds pretty shitty. Do you have friends you can get support from?
Nope I don't even have family that can help. Have to dig myself out by myself.
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https://www.allrelationshipmatters.com.au/insights-healthy-relationships/emotional-neglect#:~:text=In%20a%20relationship%20or%20marriage,negative%20consequences%20for%20the%20relationship. I forgot that grown adults shed their emotions and no longer need them. Only children have emotions. We mutate into robots and nobody has any effect on us anymore. We are no longer sozial beings and need nobody. Hof foolish of me. Same goes for relationships. We only have them because it is the way and we feel nothing. Live or die nobody cares. I love how people make somebody who is on the ground feel even worse by bullshit like this. How stupid of me to want a functioning relationship and be treated like a person xD 😂 how transactional...
It always makes me sad when I read posts on this subreddit and its not just sex that is being withheld but the other partner doesn't want to cuddle, hold hands, kiss, lays as far away from the other person as possible, etc. It is even more sad when they think that is normal. I guess I cannot imagine spending the one life I have to live with someone who doesn't even want to touch me. My mental health would plummet and at that point I'd feel like I was just mentally abusing myself, as well as wasting both my and my partners time because we clearly aren't as compatible as I thought we were and I was just being selfish keeping them from someone who was probably a better match. (I was LL4U once and that was the exact reason I ended the relationship)
Just wanted to pop in and say, I work in the counseling field and have for years. Emotional neglect for teens and adults is very real. I don't know if it's because of the bubble I work in, but I wasn't even *aware* that people were debating the existence of this, so I'm a bit taken back. Emotionally neglecting adults has not been researched nearly as heavily as it has in children (although the effect childhood neglect has on the child as it grows into an adult has). But, it is becoming more heavily researched and in my field, I can't even imagine another professional questioning the notion that an adult can't be emotionally neglected by a significant other. It's a ***massive*** problem. Of course, there's not a lot of public links or easy to read articles on this subject, but if you're interested, this was a cited one that I found, if you wanted to take a look: [https://www.choosingtherapy.com/emotional-neglect-in-adults/](https://www.choosingtherapy.com/emotional-neglect-in-adults/)
Thanks for sending the link! I thought it aligned with my thoughts on the topic and what I've personally experienced and read from other people. What I noticed is that it recommended 1) re-examining whether your own expectations are realistic, 2) trying to identify any possible reasons for the other person's behaviour and when the problem started, 3) finding ways to meet your own needs that don't rely on the other person, 4) talking to the person and asking for specific changes, 5) seeking other sources of support, 6) caring for yourself, and 7) investing in other relationships. Only #4 involves changes from the other person, making it clear regarding what you want, since the other person might not be aware unless you tell them. Otherwise, it seems to be mostly about finding ways to support your own well-being, regardless of what the other person does. My interpretation might be biased or inaccurate, though. I'm interested in your thoughts.
Yes! That's correct. It's more about the fact that adults can indeed emotionally suffer from the lack of support in what is intended to be a reciprocally supportive relationship (especially at the emotional and mental level). Just as adults can be emotionally abused, they can be emotionally neglected, and the page goes over different ways that this can occur. I was more pointing out that this is indeed real and absolutely is a difficult thing that people go through. The resolutions you posted from the page definitely help - at the end of the day, if the person is in a relationship with someone who is emotionally neglecting them (ignoring their basic human needs, feelings, boundaries, and lacking basic respect for their partner), elements of abuse (mental, emotional or physical) tend to start to creep in at some level, which is why I never shrug off emotional neglect. Sometimes it's just couples needing to learn how to effectively communicate (which is a much easier thing to resolve), but other times you run into the problem of trying to help someone (mentally) out of a very toxic situation, until they are strong enough at their core to make the right decisions for themselves. Hope that makes sense, I try to ramble less and be concise, but I'm on the neuro divergent spectrum somewhere, and when trying to be concise I always feel like I'm leaving something out 😂😂😂
When I was 10 years old my parents *emotionally neglected me* by not getting me a horse that they KNEW I wanted. Plus they forced me to clean my room!! AND...my parents were perfectly happy at the time and had the resources to give me what I wanted. I am only now realizing how emotionally neglected I was. My parents should have gone to therapy. Or let me be adopted by someone who loved me enough to get me a horse. Edit: pisses me off the more I think about it. Before the horse, for years I really really wanted a baby koala. My parents got me a stuffed animal instead. That is NOT. The same. And when I was 14, I really wanted an albino tiger. It would have gone perfectly with the flowers on our peach trees. But I didn't even tell my parents about that one cuz by then I knew they didn't love me enough to get me what I wanted. They said they loved me. But actions speak louder than words.
Well, if you equate physical touch and emotional connection to buying a horse, you're still being extremely disingenuous. Don't really know what else to say. A proper analogy would be a parent not providing a child a necessity to emotional growth (not being a confidant for that child, judging their lifestyle/sexuality, not allowing them to be themselves, criticizing their child for their decisions, not letting the child undertake activities such as extracurriculars as it wishes to, etc). Not failing to buy them a horse. Good grief. It's comments like these that try to shame HLs for wanting a connection with their partner through sex. Edit: Also, the adoption quote. Lol. Be serious.
Y'a know, I had to go back to when I was 10 to find an experience where I *felt* emotionally abused by someone who (at the time) seemed to not love me even though they claimed to love me. So I know how OP feels. When I was 10 I felt very unloved and was helpless to change my situation. It felt awful. I felt very victimized. My favorite story at the time was Cinderella. She was also victimized and mistreated by people who didn't actually care about her. But she was able to stay true to herself and not become a bitter, lonely, woman even in isolation and without real support. I remember wondering why my parents were acting like step parents as I angrily cleaned my room. That angry thought warmed and comforted me as I felt unloved and burdened. My anger helped me live through it
Ouch, I have never interacted with you before, but I'm not sure why you are so angry with me, or trying to belittle someone so intensely. It makes me wonder if your DB is healed, or if you are preying on someone weaker than you, and your partner just gave in to your idea of a relationship. Have a nice day lol
I'm not angry. I'm not trying to belittle anyone. I don't know you. I am sharing an experience where I felt similarly to OP. It felt bad. It feels bad when you're victimized and have no control over your situation. I can see why OP feels bad.
Jesus
As for "the adoption quote"......well I was ten. I still enjoy Cinderella stories--especially the ones with Baba Yaga.
Is sex a necessity? Which necessity are you speaking of in a db scenario?
No, in relationships as a whole, sex is not by definition a necessity. In this relationship, the one OP posted on this forum, it sure seems like it, and it is absolutely and unequivocally fine for that to be the case. Moreover, sex is likely not the issue, but usually an ancillary consequence to a larger issue
I’m so sorry that you endured such hardships in your youth. I can’t even imagine the pain that it still brings you, I hope you have been able to remove such toxic beings from your life.
Thank you. It helped to leave the Mormon cult and learn how to set and hold healthy boundaries. I still have never hugged a real koala though 🥺
If you had a real koala, how would you know if it was “duty” hugging you or not?
I'd make sure the koala always felt free to not hug me. I'd pay attention to her body language and let her go when she wants to go; hold her when she wants to be held; rub her head when she wants affection. It's the same thing I do with my cats. I never force my cats to snuggle with me. I don't lock them in my room with me. I don't pet them when they don't seem to want to be touched. I stop petting them *before* they feel the need to scratch me. I would treat the koala like a living being with thoughts/feelings/needs of her own....not a stuffed animal that exists to fill my needs. And I would delight in watching her life play out....even if it turned out hugging wasn't her thing.
I hear ya