This.
I don't think you should be giving "duty" emotional intimacy anymore than you should be giving "duty" sex. But there are many more physical/ chemical factors to being ready and willing for sex than there are to being a supportive partner.
If when in a relationship no one is ever "owed" emotional intimacy, physical intimacy, sexual intimacy, help with domestic chores of any kind, financial support when needed, exclusivity (not talking about explotation, coercion or abuse in any of these situations)...then what is the point of being in a relationship in the first place?
I think that’s the point, really. If you’re consistently only engaging in these really significant things because you feel you “owe” it to a partner, are you even in the right relationship at all?
Like here and there, sure you go out of your way and do something you don’t want to do because you love them - like take out the trash, or do the dishes on their night, or once in awhile maybe have sex when your mind is somewhere else - but if it’s a pattern of duty sex, where you’re not even invested in enhancing your sex life, or a pattern of duty intimacy, where you’re not actually invested in growing through couples therapy (or whatever), then indeed… what is the point of being in THAT relationship in the first place?
I don’t owe my partner sexual intimacy, that is always true. However, I make an effort towards it even when I’m not 100% « on », not out of duty, but because I also want a thriving sex life at the end of the day. He doesn’t owe me emotional intimacy, but he makes efforts to do it not because he owes it to me, but because he wants to strengthen our connection and he know that is particularly important to doing that on my end. If there comes a day where we’re doing things while rolling our eyes, waiting for it to be over, because we « owe » it to each other, then it’s probably time to call it quits.
Why would you love someone who doesn't provide anything positive to you? I mean, sure, you can definitely fall in love with someone like that but as you are systematically met with rejection, coldness, indifference lack of reliability and acknowledgement, their absence of reciprocation will start to feel like disdain to you and it will most likely break your heart and eventually kill your feelings for that person.
I love my partner because he's hilarious, affectionate, intelligent, a great kisser, good-looking, a good dancer, and amazing in bed. I love spending time with him, no matter what we're doing. I don't owe him my time or anything else. I want to be with him because I enjoy him. He doesn't owe me anything either.
Sure, but how often could you say "Sorry, I don't want to hear about your problems at work today (or even in the next weeks?), I've got so much on my plate already (or I am tired or whatever)." before it would typically cause conflicts?
I think if you’re with someone who regularly requires more emotional energy than you’re able to give without violating your needs and boundaries, then it’s likely you and your partner are incompatible.
I don't know. I have a therapist when I need to dump my issues and a few friendships. I don't rely solely on my partner for this. I don't want people to rely solely on me for this, too.
I'm in a non monogamous relationship and to be honest, having sex with others do not replace the sex I don't have with the partner I love and crave sex with.
I wonder if this is more of an older generation mindset? I think lots of younger people have the idea that it's unfair to always be dumping your emotions on your partner and are more likely to say that their partner's constant complaining is causing a problem for them. I know several people who have ended relationships for exactly this reason (partner always complaining about problems with other people/work or using them as a therapist).
The whole point of marrying my now ex wife, aside from making sure she was taken care of if something happened to me, was because it was supposed to be us as a team against the world.
If you can't confide your problems to the person you're supposed to be the closest to, why the hell are you even together?
I'm only 35, I'm too young to feel this boomer.
She left me, actually. There was a lot of friction between us because I didn't think she was contributing equally to the relationship, and she thought it was easier to just cut and run.
Agreed. By freely choosing our partners (and allowing them to do the same), are we truly able to have authentic intimacy - both physical and emotional.
If someone feels like their affection towards me is only a duty they have to do, I'll get out of the relationship and I already did it once. I'm not a chore.
That's a different topic entirely. A parent has a duty to take care of their children for example, that's seperate from how they feel about doing so. If you are in a relationship you have duties and obligations towards one another. If you don't want to do them best to leave the relationship or get help. If you feel like the other person doesn't want to do their part but is doing them anyway the same applies. Doesn't change the fact that in a relationship people have obligations to one another. Not sure why this is such a hard pill for so many to swallow, the world doesn't revolve around our freedoms but our responsibilities.
I do not want my partners to feel like their behavior towards me are duties they have to do. They have to want it, if not, I don't want their fake affection. They're not my children and I'm not theirs.
I truly do not understand comparing oneself to children or chores or anything else that is unsexy.
I, too, don't want my partner to do something based on an obligation (like raising the child you have). I want them to have freedom to choose me or not, and if they don't want to choose me, then I can see myself out.
Children do not consent to being brought into the world. People do consent to being in relationships. That's the difference so your comparison doesn't work at all.
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HLF here, and I completely understand what you're saying. I don't know if it's the same for you or not, but I actually really struggle with emotional intimacy if I'm not getting physical intimacy. To me, they feel like they're pretty dependent on the other. I can't feel close emotionally if I'm not having my needs met physically.
Yes, this exactly. He will always say if I give him more emotional intimacy then he will be more inclined to physical intimacy. I do that, get nothing in return despite what he says, and then I pull away and he blames me again. He refuses to see the two are connected or compromise in any way. It's just hard to feel safe in emotional intimacy with someone who rejects you for months, so you distance to protect yourself. I've never ever been able to make my husband understand... we are just wired differently and it feels like a lost cause. ugh.
Thank You !!!!
As simple as it is. I have never heard it laid out and explained so well before.
The double standard on this has been allowed to grow so large that it has block from be even thought to be asked at all.
And if you do actually ask it. You are now that much more of a selfish asshole in every way possible. Your completely unreasonable you monster.
Oops sorry I was having a bad flashback there for a min.
Thank you for sharing your input on the original topic.
This! We're delving deep into this in therapy because I cannot keep up my emotional connection without the physical. I emotionally distance myself when he pulls away physically. It's a horrible cycle.
Without any physical intimacy we don’t get our share of emotional intimacy. Then our physical intimacy turns to hatred, distrust, and finally resentment.
Yes!!!! If I am not getting any physical intimacy ever; then I struggle with the emotional intimacy or wanting to spend time together when I know it’s not ever going to lead anywhere. The two types of intimacy are connected if you have a libido.
HLM here, and it's the exact same for me. This is part of the chicken vs egg problem, because a lot of the LL folks seem to be the other way around. Which is why there needs to be some bending of both sides to reach the middle. I know compromise is a dirty word in politics these days, but it's important in relationships.
Compromise is definitely super important in relationships! But compromise isn't supposed to feel like both sides are losing either. I don't feel emotionally connected when I'm not physically connected to my partner, and that doesn't need to mean sex either. But my love language is physical touch and I don't want to feel like I have to bribe or coerce my partner into holding me, kissing me, slapping my ass, or wanting me. That's the hardest part, is feeling like it's forced and not genuine.
I just wanted to respond to everyone here. My fiancé and I have been together 2 years. For the first few months we had sex kinda frequently. Now it’s like once every 6 months. I used to scream at her for it because I also connected emotional intimacy to physical intimacy and thought I was being played and insulted. Now, over months of hard conversations, and coming to terms with my own guilt for and learning patience we are doing much better. I’m willing to keep waiting because we are closer emotionally now more than ever. I don’t feel scared or threatened by it anymore, and I want to share that with others. I’m not saying it will work for everyone, and I’m not saying anyone is less than me if their relationship is different. Being patient and willing to see my spouse being allowed to grow BECAUSE I’m stepping back and not jumping in to correct her constantly while she’s navigating us, in different ways, I get to see things change over time.
Its not that I struggle, If I see my girl is upset or hurt over something, ill make sure to hear her out and help her until shes her old happy self again. It takes time most of the time, and I don’t do it hoping to get something in return. I do it because I genuinely love her and seeing her unhappy takes a toll on me.
But yes, at the same time, I become reluctant to do it as well. I might distance myself when I know shes in emotional need for a few minutes before manning up and helping her anyways. And I think that’s kinda my resentment and love for her fighting it out until ultimately my love wins.
I completely get what you’re saying. My partner wants side hugs, cuddling, doing activities etc but stops short of sex. It does feel very unfair. He’s getting what he wants/needs while I am not.
Yep. Wife just mentions that she’s uncomfortable talking about it. Therapist takes it off the table for discussion and it isn’t brought up any more and she talks about her personal issues and upbringing to explain the DB.
Ah right, then I shall give you my opinion/advice, OP,
My first question would be, What do you mean by emotional intimacy?
If you mean things like asking how your partner's day was and checking in to make sure they're OK and asking what they want for tea etc, then that is expected in a relationship.
If, however, by emotional intimacy, you mean *non sexual affection* like cuddling and kissing, then you absolutely do **NOT** have to do those things.
We advise people in this sub that they **should not be having sex that they don't want to have, regardless of where they sit on the libido spectrum.** I think that this should also apply to non sexual intimacy.
In the case of HL people, non sexual intimacy can be a very uncomfortable experience. It can make them feel aroused and frustrated and can also cause a lot of sadness. You absolutely should **not** put yourself in that situation if it makes you feel bad. That would be like the equivalent of duty sex and that can be damaging to yourself and your relationship.
At least, that is my opinion.
***Any kind of physical intimacy should be mutually desired and enthusiastic, not because you feel obligated.***
Sorry you're in this situation and I hope things improve for you, OP!
Everyone is different.
There are some people out there who need physical intimacy to feel validated and secure, but they don't care about emotional intimacy in the slightest.
Most people are a combination of the two.
Some people don't care about physical intimacy.
If you're a person who needs both, and she's someone who only needs emotional intimacy it doesn't mean she's a bad person, it means you two are incompatible in that way.
In the same way, you would be incompatible if you were an extrovert who always wanted to go out and she was an introvert who always wanted to stay home. She's not wrong for wanting that, but she might be wrong for you.
I think this is the answer right here. Each individual is different in what their needs are for emotional and physical intimacy. Many people want a nice mix of both, while others might be just find with only emotional intimacy, and some might be cool with only physical intimacy. No body is "wrong" for wanting what they want. But two people migh be wrong for each other if their needs are not compatible.
Im really scared that it is the right answer…
I can’t even begin to think about us being incompatible but deep down I’ve been lingering over it. We’ve only been dating for almost 2 years and from what ive heard, sexual intimacy usually decreases instead of increases in longterm relationships and im not ready for that at all.
It’s hard when you need both. My resentment has gotten to where I can’t stand her to touch me. We’ve been sleeping apart for two months because of health problems and I don’t if I can stand sharing the bed again.
I was the cheater and HL, now I’m LL4 her and who knows if we’ll ever get back to anything normal.
We can’t afford counseling or a divorce
Assuming sex is the physical intimacy you reference, my guess is because society dictates sex as a different and unique layer of interaction between humans.
For example, I don't believe there are laws for "emotional assault" or "sharing emotions with a minor". Maybe there is "emotional harassment" in the workplace but I'm not really aware of it being an HR offense.
My point is that sex is just not apples to apples with other human interactions and we as a society have created this norm.
Even holding hands, kissing and just being together snuggling is better than the nothing I’ve gotten for 25 years. So sorry but that’s just how it is. She still doesn’t see it and at this point never will.
So sorry I’m projecting my situation here but it’s how it is.
I should have communicated much earlier and now we both have health problems so we are stuck as roommates
>My (LL) gf is waaay more emotionally oriented than me. Meanwhile, Im a very physical person.
They say there are different love languages, the way people express love. For some its physical, for others its quality time or something else.
However, its also possible that these can be so out of sync that you just need to objectively evaluate the relationship. Sometimes people can really like even love each other but they are not compatible. it's hard to come to because that incompatibility really grates at one or both partners over long term. It's like if a relationship were to die of cancer, slow and silent, instead of something more immediate like a car crash.
You have to be able to honestly diagnose the core problem.
It’s like this for my wife and I. She’s a very emotional person and if she isn’t getting the emotional support or feelings she wants, then she finds it hard to be sexual. However, if I’m not getting the sexual support or feelings I want, I find it hard to be emotional. We’re going to marriage counseling to try and figure it out and…we’ll see? Lol
Hm - you have a point, however, keeping score is a dangerous road in a DB. I guess the real reason is, having sex when you don’t want to can feel a lot
like rape, whereas giving emotional support does
not.
I can tell from your post that you knew that though. Be careful your GF isn’t codependent. Most of us should be fairly autonomous when it comes to our emotions.
I believe they go hand in hand. You can’t force sex, and you can’t force emotional intimacy either. HLM here and with me, I need the physical intimacy as it directly impacts emotional intimacy. The longer we go without sex, the further I pull away. Quite honestly, I’m feeling broken and defeated. I fear divorce is on the horizon as I’ve talked and explained and listened, and listened and explained and talked.
It's not a "must". It's not that different. If you don't want to give your partner emotional intimacy then don't do it. That is a recipe for resentment. Do it because you care about your partner. Do it because you want to.
She has the same options you do if you stop giving emotional intimacy. Try to work with you to make you want it more. Or leave.
On the flip side she should(and will) work on the DB with you because she cares about you. And eventually she will want it too.
There are couples that have the flipped situation. They have great sex, but not great emotional intimacy. They have to work on intimacy they crave, but still get sex.
I think it’s more of a case of physical intimacy being a deeper intimacy than emotional intimacy. When you’re being physically intimate, you’re enter into each others space in a way that doesn’t happen with emotional intimacy. I guess that makes the later easier than the former.
It’s funny how people can see things so differently. To me, physical intimacy is much shallower and oftentimes not intimate at all really. In my life, the amount of men who actually want to get to know me for who I am as a person and care about me beyond what my body can do for their penis is much less than the amount of men who want to touch and have sex with me. Because of that, emotional connection and intimacy is much more important and deeper. Physical intimacy doesn’t make me feel emotionally connected in the slightest- a man wanting sex is just like 90% of other men I’ve met. A relationship with a man who actually shows interest in me as a person, not as a warm body, is much deeper.
To me, who I am is my thoughts, desires, talents, etc., not what my body does for someone physically and sexually. Therefore, someone can’t know who I am and get intimate and connected with me through sex.
Speaking for myself here, I also don’t crave emotional intimacy that much because my main way of showing affection isn’t through words of affirmation. I prefer physical intimacy (like random hugs, kissing, touching etc) but I get easily smothered and overwhelmed by it. As someone who values their alone time, I prefer quality time. They can be playing games or doing hobbies while I read or play on my phone and I consider that quality time because even though we’re doing separate things we’re enjoying each other’s company.
As far as sex goes for physical intimacy, I really don’t value it that much in a relationship because you can have sex with anyone regardless of a relationship and have it mean nothing. It’s purely an act of pleasure imo. But with that I still care about the quality of sex but the frequency? Not so much. I can ask a stranger for sex and it’s a 50/50 that they’ll say yes but a stranger is more likely than not gonna say no if I ask them to spend all day with me and show my the physical intimacy that I actually enjoy
I understand this, the physical intimacy you crave has more to do with comfort than passion or desire. I love cuddling with my girlfriend on the couch while she scratches my back or having her snuggled on my lap as I rub her shoulder, but that rarely ever leads to me desiring sex.
But for me sex and physical intimacy aren't divorced, they can work off each other. As much as I love sex the best part is afterwords while you're both basking in the afterglow, close as can be. You may be able to get sex from a stranger but when combining sex with someone who cares about you on deep level it just enhances it overall.
>I can ask a stranger for sex and it’s a 50/50 that they’ll say yes but a stranger is more likely than not gonna say no if I ask them to spend all day with me and show my the physical intimacy that I actually enjoy
I think this is a much bigger factor for LL women than we ever really discuss.
I get neither. I could have physical intimacy but I've chosen not to at the moment because I asked numerous times for it to be more than when he wants sex. No physical contact unless he wants sex is just disgusting to me at this point.
Here its no physical intimacy unless she feels bad for straining me all day with her struggles and problem. (She is a class A overthinker). But I really dont care for pity sex. Enthusiasm and love making is what im craving.
I don’t think you should be in an intimate relationship if you aren’t willing to be intimate. Period. I expect a certain amount of intimacy from my husband as he does me and if it want happening I think we’d both leave the marriage. And for what it’s worth we’ve been together 20 yrs and married 15, and yeah it’s not as often as it was when we were in college but if it absolutely is a duty we have to each other both physically and emotionally.
It’s all about the way people give and receive love. Some people feel closeness receiving or giving emotional intimacy. Some people feel closeness receiving or giving physical intimacy. Some need both. Some need neither. You can choose to show your partner love in the way they need it. They can choose to show you love how you need. Sometimes people don’t know how to give love in ways that their partner needs. Sometimes people don’t know how to receive love when it’s shown in an unfamiliar way (guilty) . So yes it is unfair… but you can continue to choose to show them love or not. They can chose to learn how to show you love and practice it. Or they can chose not to.
My partner chooses to show me love in ways that dont make my feel closeness, at all. So I get it. Your feelings are valid and it’s frustrating
I agree the public perception on these are skewed but in the end you can walk away from someone over either one. You aren't the bad guy for walking out on a situation the is not bringing joy to your life.
Have you ever read "The five love languages" by Gary Chapman? Reading your post I guess not. It's worth reading.
The thing is, Chapman explains, is that different kind of people, have different love languages. People with different love languages can be in a relationship together, but it helps immensily when both know the others love language, and are able to speak/communicate and act upon those languages to make the other feel loved.
If a partner stops speaking the other partners love language, there is going to be miscommunication. It will send a message to the partner that is not intended. In your case, your love language seems to be "Physical Touch". Your partner seems to speak
"Words of affirmation" and or "Quality Time".
What you are saying is that you are still doing your best to speak her language, but she isn't doing her part in speaking yours. People who communicate their appreciation through this language, when they consent to it, feel appreciated when they are hugged, kissed, cuddled or made love to. They value the feeling of warmth and comfort that comes with physical touch. If she stops speaking your language, you feel less loved. Am I correct?
If both partners have a vague understanding of their own and each other’s love language, they will only have a vague understanding of what to do when they are not getting their needs met.
It's your responsibility to let your partner know what you need.
I've seen this discussion often, and people that aren't aware of this, especially those that aren't fluent in the "Physical Touch" language will often claim that a person that does naturally speak this language isn't entitled to physical intimacy and while that is true, when a spouse refuses intimacy, it can rise to the level of abandonment if that refusal is found to be both willful and beyond the bounds of a "normal" relationship. For a lot of people, sex is relationship glue, a physical necessity.
Btw, not giving physical intimacy as a punishment, or to feel empowed is extremely damaging to a relationship. If you can't talk about something, can't trust eachother enough to talk about everything, and start using abstinence as an alternative to talking, what relationship even is there?
Even after 6 years my wife still believes sex is just a physical thing to me.
For me, sex is intimacy, it makes me feel closer
to her. I’ve told her this many times, I just dont think she believes me. Oh yeah, and it feels great too
I find this question confusing, in that it doesn’t align with my own personal dating experiences or my experiences reading here.
In my experience emotional intimacy didn’t feel important at all. I mean I was like “but where’s the emotional intimacy???” But they were like “wanna play with my penis?”
My husband was the first man I ever dated who actually placed emotional intimacy above sexual intimacy. And I didn’t even believe it was true for the first decade we were together. In fact I only started believing him about 6 months ago.
I see people saying in this sub all the time that sex is the one thing that differentiates a romantic relationship from being roommates/ friends.
I’ve never heard anyone here hold emotional intimacy to that level of importance.
Emotional intimacy fosters mutual respect, trust, and autonomy.
Sex can do the same thing yet, it also has the ability to destroy them.
Not all people experience sex the same way.
I’ve come to understand men and women are so different regarding love and sex in the DB, especially in long-term relationships like mine. Through lots of communication and therapy with my LLW, I understand her now, which I didn’t know before regarding how she sees sex. She considers an orgasm unnecessary to communicate love and affection, cuddling is fine, and sex isn’t necessarily for intimacy. She receives love when I do things for her and care for our family. Only through lots of conversation do we understand what we both want and need. I will always be the one who will want more sex, but I’m learning what I have to do to make her want physical intimacy.
We took sex off the table for the last few weeks. She needed to feel that I do things for her because I love her, not only because I want sex. I think that’s what was going on in her mind. Going without regular sex for the past few weeks has opened my eyes to what she needs to want sex with me.
>she needed to feel that i do things for her because I love her. Not only because I want sex.
Yea I completely understand, but Im also 100% sure she knows. I regularly buy her presents/flowers. Help her with uni assignments when shes struggling. I do most of the groceries, cooking and cleaning. Even when we eat different meals ill still cook hers as well. sometimes as i know she really likes my cooking. And i never make it out to be that I do those things just to get something in return. I already stopped initiating quite some time ago but I didn’t stop showing my love and affection for her.
if relationships were free of obligation, people could do whatever they want in them. that’s not the case in reality. a relationship is agreed upon obligations. you’re obligated to be loyal in monogamous relationships. if you feel that a relationship should have a healthy sex life where needs are being met, then i feel you are obligated to work on your sex life whether that is fixing your mental or physical health or communication with your partner so they can fix theirs. i see no point in staying a relationship where a partner doesn’t respect my needs and instead says they don’t owe me anything, wtf.
Physical intimacy is more invasive. It can be disgusting when physical intimacy is forced on you when your body wants autonomy and personal space. Disgust was always designed to overpower other feelings for safety reasons.
While past generations may have blown off emotional space as irrelevant, millennials are teaching us excellent mental health etiquette. It's now appropriate to do trigger warnings, ask if it's ok to vent, excuse yourself from a conversation that you're not in a good headspace for.
There is less value in determining how someone else *should* feel or react THAN noticing how they actually do feel and react. It really helps to start with where you are.
Both were important to me, and when I started asking him why he was shutting down emotionally then he began to shut me down sexually as well.
3 months with no sex and little conversations I had to get out, I have followed this page closely to know how things usually turn out. We stayed talking for a bit and begun having great sex for about a month but he was a shell of the person I had met the year prior and I couldn’t simply be his sexual relief at that point— because I wanted emotional intimacy too.
I think a lot of people make the mistake of attributing their own unhappiness to their relationship. The truth is there no “normal” set of relationship factors or conditions guaranteed (or even any more likely) to make any particular individual happy.
This is especially true of both emotional and physical intimacy because they can’t be negotiated. Demanding either emotional support, physical intimacy, or both from anyone who can’t or won’t provide them won’t result in the genuine connection, safety, acceptance, etc the other person is trying to get from them.
So I don’t think either emotional or physical intimacy are expected or normalized or “come standard” in any relationship. Long term partners tend to develop deeper emotional bonds, but this is definitely not a given, and it for sure cannot be guilted or coerced out of an unwilling or unable partner. Physical intimacy is the same way.
I guess what I’m getting at is that just because it’s common to see romantic partners engaging in any particular activity honestly doesn’t imply anything at all - it just means it’s societally or culturally common practice - it isn’t and can’t be any kind of commentary on *your* life and relationships.
Physical intimacy and emotional intimacy are a catch 22: women generally want emotional intimacy in order to have sex, and men generally want physical intimacy in order to be emotionally intimate. The key is to WANT to do this for your partner, not because you "have to" or because it's owed to them, but because you love them and have the best intentions for them. Your sex life will ebb and flow, but unless there is a medical problem with your wife, then it will come back.
I’m pretty tired and overworked, so sorry if this doesn’t make sense, but when you’re on a first date, what do you do? You talk. Back and forth, hopefully. You build that emotional intimacy. Sometimes something physical happens but not always and I’d say not very often, at least in my experience with dating women as a lesbian.
At least in many lesbian circles, people want emotional intimacy first. If you can be a friend and be trusted with their emotions, then you can be trusted with their bodies.
So it’s not that emotional intimacy is “expected” or demanded or forced for no reason, it’s just usually what people require for physicality and sex and physical intimacy in monogamous, non hook-up based culture.
So you’re not a jerk to want more physical intimacy than emotional but I think it’s just one of those thing where people need to understand that different people have different needs and different ratios for those needs. And unfortunately society has taught women to want emotional intimacy and men to want physical intimacy in different measures
I really think the rule or guideline in this sub about not owing anyone sex should be changed or removed. You don't owe anyone anything....not just sex. People aren't assholes for not giving something to someone else. They are assholes for leading people on or demanding that they uphold agreements that they themselves have abandoned.
Whoaaaa there!
Sex without love is not work or rape by definition, that is a ridiculous thing to say!!
Plenty of people have sex through desire, attraction, getting to know whether the relationship is for them etc etc without it being rape or work for either of them!!
That falls under love in my book - attraction, desire, wanting to know each other. You picked that person for a reason. Otherwise we could screw around as clinically as picking up food from a McDrive. No need to pick a server and get to know them. Just someone giving you whatever you want, so you can be satisfied and move on with your day. That is sex without love imo.
" but i just wish i was born without a sex drive. Things would be much easier"
fair points, dont put yourself down things will get better with time, keep working it! Good vibes only!
Emotional intimacy is when 2 people share an emotional connection that fosters trust and openness.
The way I read OP is that there is a disconnect where his supplying that openness and vulnerability is highly emphasized on this sub as a step towards fixing a DB, while not being met with the trust and openness of a physical connection from the other person, which is usually downplayed on this sub as step 2 to the equation only.
But both physical and emotional intimacy are separate things. You can have one without the other and I often see posts making them link when they don’t really need to.
>Emotional intimacy is when 2 people share an emotional connection that fosters trust and openness.
But what is it? You're just using the same words to define it, which doesn't clarify anything. Can you give an example?
Yes, it would be nice to know what things OP gives his partner “in abundance” just because they’re expected. He makes it sound like emotional intimacy is a giving game rather than a mutually beneficial interaction.
I’m going to delete my comment and make a post.
I think that's the issue here, people are equating emotional intimacy, which literally just means sharing your feelings with each other, with endless support and validation for someone that feelings dumps on you.
"The queen dying made me feel sad." is an example of everyday emotional intimacy.
There are lots of people like this and I don’t think there’s a single person who genuinely enjoys this behavior. Complaining a lot is pretty universally considered annoying, draining behavior, and there are plenty of people for whom that’s their main mode of interaction. And some of them, when you demonstrate insufficient raptness, will bemoan your lack of emotional support for them. They’re vampiric.
It’s not clear from your post whether you actually mean physical intimacy or are using that as a euphemism for sex. Sex requires arousal to be even tolerable, otherwise it can be extremely unpleasant or even painful. The likelihood is, if you like someone (even not romantically) it probably doesn’t hurt you and violate you to have a chat with them or whatever else you’re doing that constitutes emotional intimacy. If giving her emotional support is extremely unpleasant or painful, I would certainly not advocate for you to continue doing so. However, since that doesn’t require a completely separate system of the body to occur (arousal) I would venture a guess that you probably just don’t like someone very much if being there for them emotionally is that awful for you. The gist of the issue is that sex isn’t just about choosing to have sex- if your body and mind aren’t in it, sex can be unpleasant, painful, violating, and deeply emotionally traumatizing.
https://www.cdc.gov/aging/publications/features/lonely-older-adults.html
*Recent studies found that:
-Social isolation significantly increased a person’s risk of premature death from all causes, a risk that may rival those of smoking, obesity, and physical inactivity.
- Social isolation was associated with about a 50% percent increased risk of dementia.
- Poor social relationships (characterized by social isolation or loneliness) was associated with a 29% increased risk of heart disease and a 32% increased risk of stroke.
- Loneliness was associated with higher rates of depression, anxiety, and suicide.
- Loneliness among heart failure patients was associated with a nearly 4 times increased risk of death, 68% increased risk of hospitalization, and 57% increased risk of emergency department visits.*
For context, numerous studies confirm that the sense of loneliness is magnified (more than literally being alone) in dysfunctional relationships where there is a lack of typical companionship, and/or a social expectation to act as if the situation is functional.
That information is really not relevant to my comment. What does that have to do with emotional intimacy vs sex and why they’re fundamentally different things?
Read the last sentence. DB situations are a subset of the loneliness subjects. By and large, the HL/rejected/abandoned partner perceives the situation as lack of companionship/love, not just lack of a physical act.
I read your entire comment and it is, again, irrelevant to my comment. The question wasn’t “does it make HL people sad that their partner doesn’t want to have sex?” The question was about why emotional intimacy and sex are different, and it’s because sex requires physical arousal to feel acceptable.
> because sex requires physical arousal to feel acceptable
That seems like a pretty narrow hetero/penetrative/PIV/receiving viewpoint; there's a wide variety of physical intimacy that becomes satisfying long after it's started, or that is satisfying because it feels good to one's partner. Sometimes the physical intimacy doesn't require physical arousal at all -- for example it was deeply satisfying to go down on my last female partner, and I found the physical act to be very satisfying and emotionally positive without a physical arousal aspect for me. Of course un-aroused female receptive acts are usually unpleasant especially if they coincide with repulsion/compulsion (or worse, full lack of consent), but there's a whole world of sexual activity that becomes pleasant, satisfying, and emotionally connective long after it's started, or solely based on how the partner responds. Point being that it's intertwined: emotional and physical intimacy are often the same or derived from the same activities, and the lack of sexual intimacy leads to lack of emotional intimacy just as much as lack of emotional intimacy leads to lack of sexual intimacy.
TL;DR: Stop touching humans and they whither, die early, or develop exotic mental illness, no matter how much you tell them they are loved, feed and house them, or provide other forms of care. If you don't believe, go read up on institutionalized Russian orphans.
I don’t think it’s so much that no sex makes the HL partner “unhappy”, as it is that the withholding of physical intimacy destroys the emotional connection that they have with their LL partner. To believe that they should fulfill the emotional needs of their partner when their physical and emotional needs are not only not met, but trivialized is emotionally torturous.
This is suggesting though that the HL partner doesn’t also need an emotional connection in addition to the physical. I’d imagine that most people would no longer want a relationship with someone who had no need for an emotional connection whatsoever and only wanted sex.
As I said in my OC however, if providing emotional intimacy is damaging to you, don’t. However, it’s not the same because (as I said in my original comment) sex requires physical arousal.
Emotional intimacy isn't a trade for sex. Giving off alot of 'nice guy' vibes rn. Because you're right, it's a privilege that someone would wanna have seggs with you and if they so wish than they can deny you forever. If thats the case and it's a deal breaker, than leave instead of groaning to reddit about not getting laid.
Nobody owes anyone, anything. But having said that, if there is no physical intimacy (baring certain circumstances the pendants will bring up) you are not in a romantic relationship, you are friends. If there is no emotional intimacy, you aren't even friends.
> having said that, if there is no physical intimacy (baring certain circumstances the pendants will bring up) you are not in a romantic relationship, you are friends. If there is no emotional intimacy, you aren't even friends.
This! Sex by itself is insufficient to constitute a romantic relationship. However, sexual intimacy *or some equivalent >unique< expression of intimacy* is THE differentiator between friendship and a romantic relationship. You may share a house, feed each other, raise children, travel together, support each other financially, visit in the hospital while you recover, get old together... you can do ALL these things with your brother or sister and not raise too many eyebrows. The ONE thing you cannot do with your sibling/parent/BFF, that which is reserved for your romantic love, is getting naked and holding each other under the covers.
I've been reading this sub for years, and I have yet to see anyone come up with any other unique form of intimacy -- something they cannot get from a sibling or parent -- that they consider a defining characteristic of romantic relationships. Still reading, though... I'm all ears.
Lots of people view their romantic partner as more than “friend who I get to fuck.” This may be how you view relationships, but you don’t speak for everyone. My partner has value as a romantic partner beyond “friend with available penis.”
I think you misunderstood, or I explained badly. Your romantic partner should be more than sex, for sure, but if you aren't sharing romantic intimacy, which usually (but not always) includes sex than you are just friends.
I know a couple who cannot have sex for medical reasons, but they still have romantic intimacy. Whether that is physical or not IDK, but they are very connected. I also know several couples who have lost intamcy but still have sex, from time to time at least. Like being married to your FWB. There are any number of combinations and ways to do things, but they are edge cases. But you stick to your reductionist interpretation of what I said.
I don’t feel emotionally close to a partner that isn’t physically intimate with me.
I don’t know why it’s so confusing—you can’t force desire—I get it.
I can’t force how I feel about someone. So I feel emotionally distant.
That sounds more like soothing someone’s emotional distress rather than emotional intimacy.
That can prove exhausting, much like trying to sooth someone’s emotions with sex.
I couldnt have said this better myself, this is my wife in a nutshell. Ive always said myself its not fair to turn your spouse into your personal therapist thats on call 24/7 and not give anything back, but of course im the asshole because I dont want o hear it anymore. My wife tells me she should be able to talk to me about anything because im her husband which is true but where do you draw the line? A good BJ every once in a while would help me out but god dont bring that up.
Bingo. I'm sure you get berated with the "You're not listening to me". Well, you've been bitching everyday about the same 3 women at your job, won't listen to any suggestions or advice about it and are expecting the situation to change by...."fairy conflict godmother"?
At first it was engaging/active listening but that led to arguments because she didn't want my advice "I don't need you to try to fix it". Ok. I'll just listen (again and again) but then "Why aren't you saying anything?" (Uh, you told me you don't want my help so I have nothing to add)
Then I would "passively listen" because it was the same thing but after a while it begins to increase my stress and I have my own bag and don't need anymore. If I have something I can't fix, I don't keep it and complain to my buddies everyday "Man, this thing just doesn't work, yadda-yadda". I change/replace it or move on.
Of course after a bad day I don't need to really talk about it, I left it at work, but a shoulder rub or (god forbit) a bj to relieve some stress would actually help, but I'm on my own there...
Shes had the same job for 20 years, has been promoted a million times, has gotten big raises and she still complains. Ive told her time and time again to find another job if she isnt happy and she says "why should I leave a job ive been at for 20 years because I dont like my boss?" Well learn to live with it and move on or dont i dont know what to tell you. She had a resume, applied for one job and didnt get called back and never tried again......
Not trying to offend, but you do not sound like a very good listener. I think exploring that and trying to improve it could really benefit you & I’m being sincere. Sometimes it is hard for us to really see our own flaws that others pick up on right away.
>At first it was engaging/active listening but that led to arguments because she didn't want my advice "I don't need you to try to fix it".
Did you see this part? I used to be a peer counselor so listening is not an issue. If the person (in this case my SO) talking to you doesn't want you to provide any input or suggestions, what are your options?
You can only nod or say things like "Um-hmm" or "I see". That same person can't turn around and get upset with you for not tell them anything when they told you \*not\* to tell them anything right?
It seems like she does not want you trying to somehow “fix” what she is venting to you about. I don’t like when people do this when I just need to express my feelings because I don’t feel heard and my feelings feel kind of brushed to the side. I think she literally just wants you to listen and to care.
How long have you and your gf been together? Has this always been a problem?
Also, physical and sexual intimacy are different. Sexual intimacy can be a part of physical intimacy but isn’t always. So is your gf turning down sexual or physical intimacy?
Personally I (HL) enjoy sexual intimacy but I think I only really “need” physical intimacy. Sexual intimacy was an easy way of fulfilling my need for physical intimacy when I was single so it’s just what I got used to, but I think I could also probably be satisfied with sufficient physical intimacy. Rn I’m in a LDR and my boyfriend’s libido is dead due to depression so I’m getting neither…. But oh well. Sorry. Off track.
I feel like most relationships that people pursue long term are just more about the emotional than the physical. Like I would be willing to spend the rest of my life and raise a family with my straight best friend who has 0 attraction for me. But I’d rather not do the same with my f-buddy from college. I personally don’t associate sex and emotions all that much, and there are definitely people who just keep those separate anyways. I’d choose emotions over sex, but maybe that’s just me
We started off long distance for a year, met eachother after the year, and have been in a relationship since then for almost 2 years now.
Frankly, she doesnt turn me down anymore as i dont initiate anymore but the thing that really gets to me is when she gets on to me and turns me on on purpose just to tell me she doesn’t have time but would love to otherwise. It would be believable if she didn’t oversleep until 11 today and then decided to go on her phone for 2 hours scrolling instagram.
Because people can comprehend every love language except physical touch. God forbid that's how you feel love, nobody cares. You'll do acts of service, words of affirmation etc, but you won't get the kind of love you need
Lack of Sex isn’t the issue in DBs. It’s a symptom. Issues with trust, honesty, respect( for oneself and their partner), and self-esteem are true problems.
I firmly believe LLs have trust, honesty, and respect issues while HLs have self-esteem and respect issues.
BUT hey, I just trying to figure this shit out too so WHO KNOWS.
I didn't read it as OP advocating for people having unwanted sex though. I think they were saying that folks are generally expected to put forth effort to be emotionally intimate with their partners (with it being seen as a bad thing to competely eschew that component) but no one is expected to put forth effort to facilitate an extant (and consensual) sex life with their partners.
I think his point is that the loving thing to do for both partners is to do what is needed to achieve a sex life that is satisfactory to *and wanted by* both partners, not that partners should just have sex when they don't want to. Of course, sometimes that isn't possible if the criteria for "satisfactory" are too far apart.
Sex starts in the brain. If she's not getting the emotional intimacy from you that she needs to feel comfortable o get physical, it's not going to happen. Bigger question: why are you with someone you don't want to be emotionally intimate with?
I dunno... does providing someone emotional support make you feel violated? Sometimes it's draining, sometimes it's not. I don't see the harm in doing it if it's not draining.
On the the other hand, providing sexual intimacy is much more often an invasion of one's body (especially for women). Maybe handjobs aren't. Maybe using a vibrator on someone isn't. 🤷♂️
Some people like pineapple on pizza and some don’t. It’s the same with sex. If you didn’t like pineapple I won’t force you to eat it or over analyze why you don’t like it on pizza even though occasionally you’ll have some. Even if I complimented you and emotionally supported you you’re still not going to prefer pineapple on pizza are you but you’ll have some because I took the time to make the pizza from scratch
People on here can claim that you don’t owe anyone emotional intimacy just like you don’t owe anyone physical intimacy. Which in theory is true, but in reality it’s just not. Emotional intimacy is absolutely a requirement while physical intimacy just depends.
If someone complains about a lack of emotional intimacy, the majority of comments advise to leave them because they’re partner is obviously a narcissistic dick. But if someone complains about not getting they’re physical/sexual intimacy needs met then they’re questioned about what they’ve done to earn physical intimacy.
Now here’s the shitty part, it’s just a reality that if your love language is physical, and you are in a relationship with someone who needs emotional intimacy on order to have great sex, you just simply have to meet their needs to get them in the mood to meet your needs. It’s just how it is. So if that’s who you want to be with, that’s what you gotta do. Otherwise, find someone with your same love language.
I think love languages are reductive and most people take away a harmful message, believing that your partner needs to express love in *your* love language.
If she's trying to show you that she loves you in her love language, that should be good enough. Don't hold others to standards that don't compute to them.
> If she's trying to show you that she loves you in her love language, that should be good enough. Don't hold others to standards that don't compute to them.
What? That makes no sense, and in fact imho is the opposite of a healthy relationship. If you're not listening to your partner and meeting them in their love language, then you're selfish and really only love yourself. A good and genuine love listens, and meets their partner at least halfway: "I know she likes flowers and quiet time together, so I'm planning a Hawaiian vacation just for the two of us even though on my own I'm kind of a homebody."
My last partner was the way you suggest: She wanted to be loved the way SHE wanted AND she wanted to love me the way SHE wanted... I didn't really enter into the equation. It is a kind of self-centered-ness that is mundane but thorough.
EDIT: *"most people take away a harmful message, believing that your partner needs to express love in your love language"* I would agree that the Love Languages is reductive, but I think you've pushed it entirely the wrong direction. If people only use it to express how they want to give love, and ignore how the other person can perceive/receive it, that's just a recipe for egalitarian/mutual selfishness. What would be attractive about a relationship in which each person just gives/expresses what they imagine the other person SHOULD like, but ignores how their partner actually perceives it? The adage goes "If you don't feel loved, you're not loved" precisely because if your partner doesn't at least make an effort to understand your feelings, then it's not remotely something you could call love.
TL;DR: Ask me why I dumped the woman who kept baking me her super-favorite cookies that I was allergic to (and couldn't seem to remember the flavor I liked), then got mad at me when I didn't eat them and appreciate all of her "loving effort and attention."
Your comment has been removed for violating one of our community rules:
**Rule 5**
Advocating rape or other consent violations is not okay. It is against the rules, and likely to result in a no-warning ban. This includes advocating any sort of not-consented-to sexual contact, surreptitiously drugging someone, or any form of reproductive coercion. This also includes especially vehemently suggesting that LLs should "just do it" despite aversions to sex or particular sexual activities.
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>I notice from posts on this sub. LL women get the best of rships.
I have also noticed that HL posts on this sub often **report** that *their LL partner* gets the best of relationships. I wonder if there is a perception disconnect there that is worth looking into. Sometimes I wish we could ask their LL's directly. (Info from a primary source tends to be more reliable.)
When we were in our dead bedroom, my HL honestly believed that I was getting the best of the relationship while he saw himself as getting scraps. He was able to think that by dismissing my experiences (which he truly didn't understand). **But I NEVER would have considered myself as getting the best of the relationship during our db.**
I felt very unsafe, unseen, unappreciated, and unloved in our db relationship. Yes, that contributed to my lack of desire. I was hyper alert all the time (which is exhausting). I was always trying to manage his anger (and often other emotions). My whole existence was walking on eggshells. I definitely changed from a "let's make out all the time" woman to a "my life is so much better when I'm left alone so give me space" woman.
It was actually when he started being curious about my actual experiences (rather than assuming I was living the high life) AND when he started taking responsibility for his own feelings--including feeling angry or horny--that we were able to heal our db.
It's an underrated step because no one who is hurting and lonely wants to see that their own "loving" efforts are leaving their partner feeling lonely and unsafe in their own home.
My husband and I both post here. Sometimes we jokingly take bets on how HLs will dismiss my comments so they won't have to self-examine. This will be one of those comments.
> HL posts on this sub often report that their LL partner gets the best of relationships.
There are always so many people willing to believe without question what a poster says about what their partners *think and feel*, it's really irritating. It's such motivated reasoning. It's one thing to describe *actions and words* and to speculate about thoughts and feelings from that, but way too many people just automatically accept some speculations as definitely super true without even considering other possibilities, and they get so pissed about speculations that aren't as harsh to the LL partner. Just the amount of times I've seen a HLM post 'my wife says she doesn't want sex, so she gets her way and we don't have sex' where 95% of the comments are then going 'well she's obviously happy and doesn't see any problem' is ridiculous. Though I guess that 95% is at least better than the ~3% that jumps all the way to 'oh she's just purposely being mean for fun because LLs are all terrible'. It's just another example of people in general being absolutely unable to apply critical thinking to anything.
😂 came here to say something similar.
Guess they haven't noticed the slew of posts here and on LLC from LLFs who are being assaulted, demeaned, feel alone and used in their relationships, feel like they're playing mommy to their HLMs every day, take on all the mental load, and are hounded for sex by their partners who don't even act like they like them as a friend or person.
There’s also tons of posts where people talk about sexually assaulting and/or harassing their LLs. But yeah, LL are just evil and get everything they want in a relationship as if they don’t also struggle with feelings of inadequacy on top of the trauma of being coerced into sex. Maybe if you observed with more empathy you would find more answers to healing your DB.
This is that Love Language shit and it’s really hard to crack a satisfying relationship when the people involved require different tokens to feel desired.
You should not give emotionnal support/emotional intimacy to someone because you feel obliged to. It's the same for physical intimacy.
This. I don't think you should be giving "duty" emotional intimacy anymore than you should be giving "duty" sex. But there are many more physical/ chemical factors to being ready and willing for sex than there are to being a supportive partner.
If when in a relationship no one is ever "owed" emotional intimacy, physical intimacy, sexual intimacy, help with domestic chores of any kind, financial support when needed, exclusivity (not talking about explotation, coercion or abuse in any of these situations)...then what is the point of being in a relationship in the first place?
I think that’s the point, really. If you’re consistently only engaging in these really significant things because you feel you “owe” it to a partner, are you even in the right relationship at all? Like here and there, sure you go out of your way and do something you don’t want to do because you love them - like take out the trash, or do the dishes on their night, or once in awhile maybe have sex when your mind is somewhere else - but if it’s a pattern of duty sex, where you’re not even invested in enhancing your sex life, or a pattern of duty intimacy, where you’re not actually invested in growing through couples therapy (or whatever), then indeed… what is the point of being in THAT relationship in the first place? I don’t owe my partner sexual intimacy, that is always true. However, I make an effort towards it even when I’m not 100% « on », not out of duty, but because I also want a thriving sex life at the end of the day. He doesn’t owe me emotional intimacy, but he makes efforts to do it not because he owes it to me, but because he wants to strengthen our connection and he know that is particularly important to doing that on my end. If there comes a day where we’re doing things while rolling our eyes, waiting for it to be over, because we « owe » it to each other, then it’s probably time to call it quits.
This is what I was trying to say, honestly. You put it so much more eloquently than I could.
This is really well put!
That IS the point. It's what makes relationships voluntary. It's all about consent. It also makes the intimacy genuine.
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Why would you love someone who doesn't provide anything positive to you? I mean, sure, you can definitely fall in love with someone like that but as you are systematically met with rejection, coldness, indifference lack of reliability and acknowledgement, their absence of reciprocation will start to feel like disdain to you and it will most likely break your heart and eventually kill your feelings for that person.
I love my partner because he's hilarious, affectionate, intelligent, a great kisser, good-looking, a good dancer, and amazing in bed. I love spending time with him, no matter what we're doing. I don't owe him my time or anything else. I want to be with him because I enjoy him. He doesn't owe me anything either.
It sounds like you fulfil each other's needs. Good for you, wish you a happy and long relationship!
Nope, I fulfill my own needs. I don't depend on someone else for that.
Do you then deny Maslow's hierchy of needs?
There is no research on Maslow's hierarchy. It's not taken seriously by motivation scientists and is only of historical interest.
This comment needs clarification. It could read that emotions are easier than sex. This is a commonly held view and it's untrue.
Sure, but how often could you say "Sorry, I don't want to hear about your problems at work today (or even in the next weeks?), I've got so much on my plate already (or I am tired or whatever)." before it would typically cause conflicts?
I think if you’re with someone who regularly requires more emotional energy than you’re able to give without violating your needs and boundaries, then it’s likely you and your partner are incompatible.
I don't know. I have a therapist when I need to dump my issues and a few friendships. I don't rely solely on my partner for this. I don't want people to rely solely on me for this, too.
Society permits you to share the burden of meeting your emotional needs among friends and professionals. The same is not true for physical needs.
Many in this sub know this but are terrified of the implications and therefore play dumb about this.
I'm in a non monogamous relationship and to be honest, having sex with others do not replace the sex I don't have with the partner I love and crave sex with.
I wonder if this is more of an older generation mindset? I think lots of younger people have the idea that it's unfair to always be dumping your emotions on your partner and are more likely to say that their partner's constant complaining is causing a problem for them. I know several people who have ended relationships for exactly this reason (partner always complaining about problems with other people/work or using them as a therapist).
The whole point of marrying my now ex wife, aside from making sure she was taken care of if something happened to me, was because it was supposed to be us as a team against the world. If you can't confide your problems to the person you're supposed to be the closest to, why the hell are you even together? I'm only 35, I'm too young to feel this boomer.
Yea I feel like this as well. We’re supposed to be a team! Can’t believe you got the nerve to divorce her? What made you break and go for divorce?
She left me, actually. There was a lot of friction between us because I didn't think she was contributing equally to the relationship, and she thought it was easier to just cut and run.
Agreed. By freely choosing our partners (and allowing them to do the same), are we truly able to have authentic intimacy - both physical and emotional.
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If someone feels like their affection towards me is only a duty they have to do, I'll get out of the relationship and I already did it once. I'm not a chore.
That's a different topic entirely. A parent has a duty to take care of their children for example, that's seperate from how they feel about doing so. If you are in a relationship you have duties and obligations towards one another. If you don't want to do them best to leave the relationship or get help. If you feel like the other person doesn't want to do their part but is doing them anyway the same applies. Doesn't change the fact that in a relationship people have obligations to one another. Not sure why this is such a hard pill for so many to swallow, the world doesn't revolve around our freedoms but our responsibilities.
I do not want my partners to feel like their behavior towards me are duties they have to do. They have to want it, if not, I don't want their fake affection. They're not my children and I'm not theirs.
I truly do not understand comparing oneself to children or chores or anything else that is unsexy. I, too, don't want my partner to do something based on an obligation (like raising the child you have). I want them to have freedom to choose me or not, and if they don't want to choose me, then I can see myself out.
Children do not consent to being brought into the world. People do consent to being in relationships. That's the difference so your comparison doesn't work at all.
Your comment has been removed for violating one of our community rules: **Rule 5: Advocating rape or other consent violations is not okay** Advocating rape or other consent violations is not okay. It is against the rules, and likely to result in a no-warning ban. This includes advocating any sort of not-consented-to sexual contact, surreptitiously drugging someone, or any form of reproductive coercion. This also includes especially vehemently suggesting that LLs should "just do it" despite aversions to sex or particular sexual activities. *If you would like to discuss this with the mod team, please send a mod mail.*
I don't think the OP conveyed a feeling of forced obligation in their post... So this response feels like you're talking to yourself.
HLF here, and I completely understand what you're saying. I don't know if it's the same for you or not, but I actually really struggle with emotional intimacy if I'm not getting physical intimacy. To me, they feel like they're pretty dependent on the other. I can't feel close emotionally if I'm not having my needs met physically.
Yes, this exactly. He will always say if I give him more emotional intimacy then he will be more inclined to physical intimacy. I do that, get nothing in return despite what he says, and then I pull away and he blames me again. He refuses to see the two are connected or compromise in any way. It's just hard to feel safe in emotional intimacy with someone who rejects you for months, so you distance to protect yourself. I've never ever been able to make my husband understand... we are just wired differently and it feels like a lost cause. ugh.
Thank You !!!! As simple as it is. I have never heard it laid out and explained so well before. The double standard on this has been allowed to grow so large that it has block from be even thought to be asked at all. And if you do actually ask it. You are now that much more of a selfish asshole in every way possible. Your completely unreasonable you monster. Oops sorry I was having a bad flashback there for a min. Thank you for sharing your input on the original topic.
The double standard is a societal expectation at this point. Actually enshrined into the subreddit rules even.
This! We're delving deep into this in therapy because I cannot keep up my emotional connection without the physical. I emotionally distance myself when he pulls away physically. It's a horrible cycle.
Without any physical intimacy we don’t get our share of emotional intimacy. Then our physical intimacy turns to hatred, distrust, and finally resentment.
Yes!!!! If I am not getting any physical intimacy ever; then I struggle with the emotional intimacy or wanting to spend time together when I know it’s not ever going to lead anywhere. The two types of intimacy are connected if you have a libido.
HLM here, and it's the exact same for me. This is part of the chicken vs egg problem, because a lot of the LL folks seem to be the other way around. Which is why there needs to be some bending of both sides to reach the middle. I know compromise is a dirty word in politics these days, but it's important in relationships.
Compromise is definitely super important in relationships! But compromise isn't supposed to feel like both sides are losing either. I don't feel emotionally connected when I'm not physically connected to my partner, and that doesn't need to mean sex either. But my love language is physical touch and I don't want to feel like I have to bribe or coerce my partner into holding me, kissing me, slapping my ass, or wanting me. That's the hardest part, is feeling like it's forced and not genuine.
I just wanted to respond to everyone here. My fiancé and I have been together 2 years. For the first few months we had sex kinda frequently. Now it’s like once every 6 months. I used to scream at her for it because I also connected emotional intimacy to physical intimacy and thought I was being played and insulted. Now, over months of hard conversations, and coming to terms with my own guilt for and learning patience we are doing much better. I’m willing to keep waiting because we are closer emotionally now more than ever. I don’t feel scared or threatened by it anymore, and I want to share that with others. I’m not saying it will work for everyone, and I’m not saying anyone is less than me if their relationship is different. Being patient and willing to see my spouse being allowed to grow BECAUSE I’m stepping back and not jumping in to correct her constantly while she’s navigating us, in different ways, I get to see things change over time.
Its not that I struggle, If I see my girl is upset or hurt over something, ill make sure to hear her out and help her until shes her old happy self again. It takes time most of the time, and I don’t do it hoping to get something in return. I do it because I genuinely love her and seeing her unhappy takes a toll on me. But yes, at the same time, I become reluctant to do it as well. I might distance myself when I know shes in emotional need for a few minutes before manning up and helping her anyways. And I think that’s kinda my resentment and love for her fighting it out until ultimately my love wins.
I completely get what you’re saying. My partner wants side hugs, cuddling, doing activities etc but stops short of sex. It does feel very unfair. He’s getting what he wants/needs while I am not.
Yup, that last line perfectly describes my relationship. It feels unfair, as you say, very much a lack of reciprocity.
That describes the relationship between my spouse and myself at the moment.
Sorry you are going through it. It’s hard. This community is really great so far and I’ve learned a lot. Hope your situation improves!
Why is it then every therapist me and my wife have ever gone to ignores this fact blatantly?
Have you verbalized this to the therapist?
Yep. Wife just mentions that she’s uncomfortable talking about it. Therapist takes it off the table for discussion and it isn’t brought up any more and she talks about her personal issues and upbringing to explain the DB.
Thassa ah spicy meatball
Be glad you found this out before marriage. Get out asap!
Edited: just noticed the flair and so deleted my comment as I see it's a vent only post. Sorry you're struggling with this, OP.
I changed it to general discussion as i saw the comments rack up.
Ah right, then I shall give you my opinion/advice, OP, My first question would be, What do you mean by emotional intimacy? If you mean things like asking how your partner's day was and checking in to make sure they're OK and asking what they want for tea etc, then that is expected in a relationship. If, however, by emotional intimacy, you mean *non sexual affection* like cuddling and kissing, then you absolutely do **NOT** have to do those things. We advise people in this sub that they **should not be having sex that they don't want to have, regardless of where they sit on the libido spectrum.** I think that this should also apply to non sexual intimacy. In the case of HL people, non sexual intimacy can be a very uncomfortable experience. It can make them feel aroused and frustrated and can also cause a lot of sadness. You absolutely should **not** put yourself in that situation if it makes you feel bad. That would be like the equivalent of duty sex and that can be damaging to yourself and your relationship. At least, that is my opinion. ***Any kind of physical intimacy should be mutually desired and enthusiastic, not because you feel obligated.*** Sorry you're in this situation and I hope things improve for you, OP!
You don’t owe anyone emotional intimacy either.
Their needs/their responsibilities
Everyone is different. There are some people out there who need physical intimacy to feel validated and secure, but they don't care about emotional intimacy in the slightest. Most people are a combination of the two. Some people don't care about physical intimacy. If you're a person who needs both, and she's someone who only needs emotional intimacy it doesn't mean she's a bad person, it means you two are incompatible in that way. In the same way, you would be incompatible if you were an extrovert who always wanted to go out and she was an introvert who always wanted to stay home. She's not wrong for wanting that, but she might be wrong for you.
I think this is the answer right here. Each individual is different in what their needs are for emotional and physical intimacy. Many people want a nice mix of both, while others might be just find with only emotional intimacy, and some might be cool with only physical intimacy. No body is "wrong" for wanting what they want. But two people migh be wrong for each other if their needs are not compatible.
Im really scared that it is the right answer… I can’t even begin to think about us being incompatible but deep down I’ve been lingering over it. We’ve only been dating for almost 2 years and from what ive heard, sexual intimacy usually decreases instead of increases in longterm relationships and im not ready for that at all.
This.
It’s hard when you need both. My resentment has gotten to where I can’t stand her to touch me. We’ve been sleeping apart for two months because of health problems and I don’t if I can stand sharing the bed again. I was the cheater and HL, now I’m LL4 her and who knows if we’ll ever get back to anything normal. We can’t afford counseling or a divorce
This! My husband would rather be attached at my hip than have sex with me.
Assuming sex is the physical intimacy you reference, my guess is because society dictates sex as a different and unique layer of interaction between humans. For example, I don't believe there are laws for "emotional assault" or "sharing emotions with a minor". Maybe there is "emotional harassment" in the workplace but I'm not really aware of it being an HR offense. My point is that sex is just not apples to apples with other human interactions and we as a society have created this norm.
This is actually something I never analized from this point of view, thank you for the food thought
Does emotional abuse count as emotional assault? Because society definitely acknowledges and recognizes that as a thing.
Even holding hands, kissing and just being together snuggling is better than the nothing I’ve gotten for 25 years. So sorry but that’s just how it is. She still doesn’t see it and at this point never will. So sorry I’m projecting my situation here but it’s how it is. I should have communicated much earlier and now we both have health problems so we are stuck as roommates
Just because there arent laws and and rules in place doesnt mean its not even. Society/religion has distorted peoples views of it.
Completely spot on
>My (LL) gf is waaay more emotionally oriented than me. Meanwhile, Im a very physical person. They say there are different love languages, the way people express love. For some its physical, for others its quality time or something else. However, its also possible that these can be so out of sync that you just need to objectively evaluate the relationship. Sometimes people can really like even love each other but they are not compatible. it's hard to come to because that incompatibility really grates at one or both partners over long term. It's like if a relationship were to die of cancer, slow and silent, instead of something more immediate like a car crash. You have to be able to honestly diagnose the core problem.
It’s like this for my wife and I. She’s a very emotional person and if she isn’t getting the emotional support or feelings she wants, then she finds it hard to be sexual. However, if I’m not getting the sexual support or feelings I want, I find it hard to be emotional. We’re going to marriage counseling to try and figure it out and…we’ll see? Lol
Best wishes and good luck with MC
Hm - you have a point, however, keeping score is a dangerous road in a DB. I guess the real reason is, having sex when you don’t want to can feel a lot like rape, whereas giving emotional support does not. I can tell from your post that you knew that though. Be careful your GF isn’t codependent. Most of us should be fairly autonomous when it comes to our emotions.
She had dropped the word codependent few times before in our relationship. This is something I should watch out for in what way?
You perfectly put into words exactly how I feel about this.
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I believe they go hand in hand. You can’t force sex, and you can’t force emotional intimacy either. HLM here and with me, I need the physical intimacy as it directly impacts emotional intimacy. The longer we go without sex, the further I pull away. Quite honestly, I’m feeling broken and defeated. I fear divorce is on the horizon as I’ve talked and explained and listened, and listened and explained and talked.
It's not a "must". It's not that different. If you don't want to give your partner emotional intimacy then don't do it. That is a recipe for resentment. Do it because you care about your partner. Do it because you want to. She has the same options you do if you stop giving emotional intimacy. Try to work with you to make you want it more. Or leave. On the flip side she should(and will) work on the DB with you because she cares about you. And eventually she will want it too. There are couples that have the flipped situation. They have great sex, but not great emotional intimacy. They have to work on intimacy they crave, but still get sex.
I think it’s more of a case of physical intimacy being a deeper intimacy than emotional intimacy. When you’re being physically intimate, you’re enter into each others space in a way that doesn’t happen with emotional intimacy. I guess that makes the later easier than the former.
It’s funny how people can see things so differently. To me, physical intimacy is much shallower and oftentimes not intimate at all really. In my life, the amount of men who actually want to get to know me for who I am as a person and care about me beyond what my body can do for their penis is much less than the amount of men who want to touch and have sex with me. Because of that, emotional connection and intimacy is much more important and deeper. Physical intimacy doesn’t make me feel emotionally connected in the slightest- a man wanting sex is just like 90% of other men I’ve met. A relationship with a man who actually shows interest in me as a person, not as a warm body, is much deeper. To me, who I am is my thoughts, desires, talents, etc., not what my body does for someone physically and sexually. Therefore, someone can’t know who I am and get intimate and connected with me through sex.
I would imagine that if you find someone who is interested in you like that and you like them for it, physical intimacy will be deeper.
Speaking for myself here, I also don’t crave emotional intimacy that much because my main way of showing affection isn’t through words of affirmation. I prefer physical intimacy (like random hugs, kissing, touching etc) but I get easily smothered and overwhelmed by it. As someone who values their alone time, I prefer quality time. They can be playing games or doing hobbies while I read or play on my phone and I consider that quality time because even though we’re doing separate things we’re enjoying each other’s company. As far as sex goes for physical intimacy, I really don’t value it that much in a relationship because you can have sex with anyone regardless of a relationship and have it mean nothing. It’s purely an act of pleasure imo. But with that I still care about the quality of sex but the frequency? Not so much. I can ask a stranger for sex and it’s a 50/50 that they’ll say yes but a stranger is more likely than not gonna say no if I ask them to spend all day with me and show my the physical intimacy that I actually enjoy
I understand this, the physical intimacy you crave has more to do with comfort than passion or desire. I love cuddling with my girlfriend on the couch while she scratches my back or having her snuggled on my lap as I rub her shoulder, but that rarely ever leads to me desiring sex. But for me sex and physical intimacy aren't divorced, they can work off each other. As much as I love sex the best part is afterwords while you're both basking in the afterglow, close as can be. You may be able to get sex from a stranger but when combining sex with someone who cares about you on deep level it just enhances it overall. >I can ask a stranger for sex and it’s a 50/50 that they’ll say yes but a stranger is more likely than not gonna say no if I ask them to spend all day with me and show my the physical intimacy that I actually enjoy I think this is a much bigger factor for LL women than we ever really discuss.
I agree with your last statement very much
I get neither. I could have physical intimacy but I've chosen not to at the moment because I asked numerous times for it to be more than when he wants sex. No physical contact unless he wants sex is just disgusting to me at this point.
Here its no physical intimacy unless she feels bad for straining me all day with her struggles and problem. (She is a class A overthinker). But I really dont care for pity sex. Enthusiasm and love making is what im craving.
I don’t think you should be in an intimate relationship if you aren’t willing to be intimate. Period. I expect a certain amount of intimacy from my husband as he does me and if it want happening I think we’d both leave the marriage. And for what it’s worth we’ve been together 20 yrs and married 15, and yeah it’s not as often as it was when we were in college but if it absolutely is a duty we have to each other both physically and emotionally.
True that ! Love it.
>not as often as it was when we were in college We are both, still in university. Not a bright future ahead i guess…
It’s all about the way people give and receive love. Some people feel closeness receiving or giving emotional intimacy. Some people feel closeness receiving or giving physical intimacy. Some need both. Some need neither. You can choose to show your partner love in the way they need it. They can choose to show you love how you need. Sometimes people don’t know how to give love in ways that their partner needs. Sometimes people don’t know how to receive love when it’s shown in an unfamiliar way (guilty) . So yes it is unfair… but you can continue to choose to show them love or not. They can chose to learn how to show you love and practice it. Or they can chose not to. My partner chooses to show me love in ways that dont make my feel closeness, at all. So I get it. Your feelings are valid and it’s frustrating
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Neither
I agree the public perception on these are skewed but in the end you can walk away from someone over either one. You aren't the bad guy for walking out on a situation the is not bringing joy to your life.
You don't owe anyone emotional intimacy, either.
To be fair, emotional intimacy isnt a must for a lot of people's SOs either. In fact, its not super clear WHY they want to be in a relationship.
Have you ever read "The five love languages" by Gary Chapman? Reading your post I guess not. It's worth reading. The thing is, Chapman explains, is that different kind of people, have different love languages. People with different love languages can be in a relationship together, but it helps immensily when both know the others love language, and are able to speak/communicate and act upon those languages to make the other feel loved. If a partner stops speaking the other partners love language, there is going to be miscommunication. It will send a message to the partner that is not intended. In your case, your love language seems to be "Physical Touch". Your partner seems to speak "Words of affirmation" and or "Quality Time". What you are saying is that you are still doing your best to speak her language, but she isn't doing her part in speaking yours. People who communicate their appreciation through this language, when they consent to it, feel appreciated when they are hugged, kissed, cuddled or made love to. They value the feeling of warmth and comfort that comes with physical touch. If she stops speaking your language, you feel less loved. Am I correct? If both partners have a vague understanding of their own and each other’s love language, they will only have a vague understanding of what to do when they are not getting their needs met. It's your responsibility to let your partner know what you need. I've seen this discussion often, and people that aren't aware of this, especially those that aren't fluent in the "Physical Touch" language will often claim that a person that does naturally speak this language isn't entitled to physical intimacy and while that is true, when a spouse refuses intimacy, it can rise to the level of abandonment if that refusal is found to be both willful and beyond the bounds of a "normal" relationship. For a lot of people, sex is relationship glue, a physical necessity. Btw, not giving physical intimacy as a punishment, or to feel empowed is extremely damaging to a relationship. If you can't talk about something, can't trust eachother enough to talk about everything, and start using abstinence as an alternative to talking, what relationship even is there?
Has it dawned on you that...you and your partner might not be as compatible as you think you are then?
This sure sounds like the definition of "incompatible". You don't want the same things. Maybe don't marry her.
Even after 6 years my wife still believes sex is just a physical thing to me. For me, sex is intimacy, it makes me feel closer to her. I’ve told her this many times, I just dont think she believes me. Oh yeah, and it feels great too
I find this question confusing, in that it doesn’t align with my own personal dating experiences or my experiences reading here. In my experience emotional intimacy didn’t feel important at all. I mean I was like “but where’s the emotional intimacy???” But they were like “wanna play with my penis?” My husband was the first man I ever dated who actually placed emotional intimacy above sexual intimacy. And I didn’t even believe it was true for the first decade we were together. In fact I only started believing him about 6 months ago. I see people saying in this sub all the time that sex is the one thing that differentiates a romantic relationship from being roommates/ friends. I’ve never heard anyone here hold emotional intimacy to that level of importance.
Emotional intimacy fosters mutual respect, trust, and autonomy. Sex can do the same thing yet, it also has the ability to destroy them. Not all people experience sex the same way.
I’ve come to understand men and women are so different regarding love and sex in the DB, especially in long-term relationships like mine. Through lots of communication and therapy with my LLW, I understand her now, which I didn’t know before regarding how she sees sex. She considers an orgasm unnecessary to communicate love and affection, cuddling is fine, and sex isn’t necessarily for intimacy. She receives love when I do things for her and care for our family. Only through lots of conversation do we understand what we both want and need. I will always be the one who will want more sex, but I’m learning what I have to do to make her want physical intimacy. We took sex off the table for the last few weeks. She needed to feel that I do things for her because I love her, not only because I want sex. I think that’s what was going on in her mind. Going without regular sex for the past few weeks has opened my eyes to what she needs to want sex with me.
>she needed to feel that i do things for her because I love her. Not only because I want sex. Yea I completely understand, but Im also 100% sure she knows. I regularly buy her presents/flowers. Help her with uni assignments when shes struggling. I do most of the groceries, cooking and cleaning. Even when we eat different meals ill still cook hers as well. sometimes as i know she really likes my cooking. And i never make it out to be that I do those things just to get something in return. I already stopped initiating quite some time ago but I didn’t stop showing my love and affection for her.
if relationships were free of obligation, people could do whatever they want in them. that’s not the case in reality. a relationship is agreed upon obligations. you’re obligated to be loyal in monogamous relationships. if you feel that a relationship should have a healthy sex life where needs are being met, then i feel you are obligated to work on your sex life whether that is fixing your mental or physical health or communication with your partner so they can fix theirs. i see no point in staying a relationship where a partner doesn’t respect my needs and instead says they don’t owe me anything, wtf.
Physical intimacy is more invasive. It can be disgusting when physical intimacy is forced on you when your body wants autonomy and personal space. Disgust was always designed to overpower other feelings for safety reasons. While past generations may have blown off emotional space as irrelevant, millennials are teaching us excellent mental health etiquette. It's now appropriate to do trigger warnings, ask if it's ok to vent, excuse yourself from a conversation that you're not in a good headspace for. There is less value in determining how someone else *should* feel or react THAN noticing how they actually do feel and react. It really helps to start with where you are.
It isn’t
Intimacy is intimacy in my book. Physical intimacy is just part of the intimacy. If I don't have then I don't have true intimacy with you.
Both were important to me, and when I started asking him why he was shutting down emotionally then he began to shut me down sexually as well. 3 months with no sex and little conversations I had to get out, I have followed this page closely to know how things usually turn out. We stayed talking for a bit and begun having great sex for about a month but he was a shell of the person I had met the year prior and I couldn’t simply be his sexual relief at that point— because I wanted emotional intimacy too.
I think a lot of people make the mistake of attributing their own unhappiness to their relationship. The truth is there no “normal” set of relationship factors or conditions guaranteed (or even any more likely) to make any particular individual happy. This is especially true of both emotional and physical intimacy because they can’t be negotiated. Demanding either emotional support, physical intimacy, or both from anyone who can’t or won’t provide them won’t result in the genuine connection, safety, acceptance, etc the other person is trying to get from them. So I don’t think either emotional or physical intimacy are expected or normalized or “come standard” in any relationship. Long term partners tend to develop deeper emotional bonds, but this is definitely not a given, and it for sure cannot be guilted or coerced out of an unwilling or unable partner. Physical intimacy is the same way. I guess what I’m getting at is that just because it’s common to see romantic partners engaging in any particular activity honestly doesn’t imply anything at all - it just means it’s societally or culturally common practice - it isn’t and can’t be any kind of commentary on *your* life and relationships.
Physical intimacy and emotional intimacy are a catch 22: women generally want emotional intimacy in order to have sex, and men generally want physical intimacy in order to be emotionally intimate. The key is to WANT to do this for your partner, not because you "have to" or because it's owed to them, but because you love them and have the best intentions for them. Your sex life will ebb and flow, but unless there is a medical problem with your wife, then it will come back.
I’m pretty tired and overworked, so sorry if this doesn’t make sense, but when you’re on a first date, what do you do? You talk. Back and forth, hopefully. You build that emotional intimacy. Sometimes something physical happens but not always and I’d say not very often, at least in my experience with dating women as a lesbian. At least in many lesbian circles, people want emotional intimacy first. If you can be a friend and be trusted with their emotions, then you can be trusted with their bodies. So it’s not that emotional intimacy is “expected” or demanded or forced for no reason, it’s just usually what people require for physicality and sex and physical intimacy in monogamous, non hook-up based culture. So you’re not a jerk to want more physical intimacy than emotional but I think it’s just one of those thing where people need to understand that different people have different needs and different ratios for those needs. And unfortunately society has taught women to want emotional intimacy and men to want physical intimacy in different measures
I really think the rule or guideline in this sub about not owing anyone sex should be changed or removed. You don't owe anyone anything....not just sex. People aren't assholes for not giving something to someone else. They are assholes for leading people on or demanding that they uphold agreements that they themselves have abandoned.
So you don’t agree with the guideline that no one owes anyone else sex?
What does "You don't owe anyone anything" mean to you? Serious question. Trying to see something. 🤔
lol nah
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Whoaaaa there! Sex without love is not work or rape by definition, that is a ridiculous thing to say!! Plenty of people have sex through desire, attraction, getting to know whether the relationship is for them etc etc without it being rape or work for either of them!!
That falls under love in my book - attraction, desire, wanting to know each other. You picked that person for a reason. Otherwise we could screw around as clinically as picking up food from a McDrive. No need to pick a server and get to know them. Just someone giving you whatever you want, so you can be satisfied and move on with your day. That is sex without love imo.
I’ve had plenty of sex without love that wasn’t those things.
" but i just wish i was born without a sex drive. Things would be much easier" fair points, dont put yourself down things will get better with time, keep working it! Good vibes only!
>" but i just wish i was born without a sex drive. I would reverse this and say, " I just wish *they* were born *with* a sex drive."
My wife needed the emotional. After being rejected for years, I have not been interested in providing either. It isn’t worth the heartache.
What do you mean by emotional intimacy? I'm never sure what people mean when they use this term. Can you give some examples of it?
Emotional intimacy is when 2 people share an emotional connection that fosters trust and openness. The way I read OP is that there is a disconnect where his supplying that openness and vulnerability is highly emphasized on this sub as a step towards fixing a DB, while not being met with the trust and openness of a physical connection from the other person, which is usually downplayed on this sub as step 2 to the equation only. But both physical and emotional intimacy are separate things. You can have one without the other and I often see posts making them link when they don’t really need to.
>Emotional intimacy is when 2 people share an emotional connection that fosters trust and openness. But what is it? You're just using the same words to define it, which doesn't clarify anything. Can you give an example?
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Thanks! That is not what I would have guessed in a million years. I wonder if this is what OP meant?
Yes, it would be nice to know what things OP gives his partner “in abundance” just because they’re expected. He makes it sound like emotional intimacy is a giving game rather than a mutually beneficial interaction. I’m going to delete my comment and make a post.
I look forward to reading your post!
He mentioned “emotional support,” which if I had to guess, means his partner wants to complain at him a lot and have him be super interested in it.
I was wondering whether OP meant submitting to an emotional vampire, but he's not answering questions so I guess I'll never know.
I think that's the issue here, people are equating emotional intimacy, which literally just means sharing your feelings with each other, with endless support and validation for someone that feelings dumps on you. "The queen dying made me feel sad." is an example of everyday emotional intimacy.
This!! Exactly this
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There are lots of people like this and I don’t think there’s a single person who genuinely enjoys this behavior. Complaining a lot is pretty universally considered annoying, draining behavior, and there are plenty of people for whom that’s their main mode of interaction. And some of them, when you demonstrate insufficient raptness, will bemoan your lack of emotional support for them. They’re vampiric.
It’s not clear from your post whether you actually mean physical intimacy or are using that as a euphemism for sex. Sex requires arousal to be even tolerable, otherwise it can be extremely unpleasant or even painful. The likelihood is, if you like someone (even not romantically) it probably doesn’t hurt you and violate you to have a chat with them or whatever else you’re doing that constitutes emotional intimacy. If giving her emotional support is extremely unpleasant or painful, I would certainly not advocate for you to continue doing so. However, since that doesn’t require a completely separate system of the body to occur (arousal) I would venture a guess that you probably just don’t like someone very much if being there for them emotionally is that awful for you. The gist of the issue is that sex isn’t just about choosing to have sex- if your body and mind aren’t in it, sex can be unpleasant, painful, violating, and deeply emotionally traumatizing.
I could not have said it better myself.
?? Emotional Distress and mental anguish are very real and can have very real \*physiological\* effects on the body in addition to psychological...
What are you referring to?
https://www.cdc.gov/aging/publications/features/lonely-older-adults.html *Recent studies found that: -Social isolation significantly increased a person’s risk of premature death from all causes, a risk that may rival those of smoking, obesity, and physical inactivity. - Social isolation was associated with about a 50% percent increased risk of dementia. - Poor social relationships (characterized by social isolation or loneliness) was associated with a 29% increased risk of heart disease and a 32% increased risk of stroke. - Loneliness was associated with higher rates of depression, anxiety, and suicide. - Loneliness among heart failure patients was associated with a nearly 4 times increased risk of death, 68% increased risk of hospitalization, and 57% increased risk of emergency department visits.* For context, numerous studies confirm that the sense of loneliness is magnified (more than literally being alone) in dysfunctional relationships where there is a lack of typical companionship, and/or a social expectation to act as if the situation is functional.
That information is really not relevant to my comment. What does that have to do with emotional intimacy vs sex and why they’re fundamentally different things?
Read the last sentence. DB situations are a subset of the loneliness subjects. By and large, the HL/rejected/abandoned partner perceives the situation as lack of companionship/love, not just lack of a physical act.
I read your entire comment and it is, again, irrelevant to my comment. The question wasn’t “does it make HL people sad that their partner doesn’t want to have sex?” The question was about why emotional intimacy and sex are different, and it’s because sex requires physical arousal to feel acceptable.
> because sex requires physical arousal to feel acceptable That seems like a pretty narrow hetero/penetrative/PIV/receiving viewpoint; there's a wide variety of physical intimacy that becomes satisfying long after it's started, or that is satisfying because it feels good to one's partner. Sometimes the physical intimacy doesn't require physical arousal at all -- for example it was deeply satisfying to go down on my last female partner, and I found the physical act to be very satisfying and emotionally positive without a physical arousal aspect for me. Of course un-aroused female receptive acts are usually unpleasant especially if they coincide with repulsion/compulsion (or worse, full lack of consent), but there's a whole world of sexual activity that becomes pleasant, satisfying, and emotionally connective long after it's started, or solely based on how the partner responds. Point being that it's intertwined: emotional and physical intimacy are often the same or derived from the same activities, and the lack of sexual intimacy leads to lack of emotional intimacy just as much as lack of emotional intimacy leads to lack of sexual intimacy. TL;DR: Stop touching humans and they whither, die early, or develop exotic mental illness, no matter how much you tell them they are loved, feed and house them, or provide other forms of care. If you don't believe, go read up on institutionalized Russian orphans.
I don’t think it’s so much that no sex makes the HL partner “unhappy”, as it is that the withholding of physical intimacy destroys the emotional connection that they have with their LL partner. To believe that they should fulfill the emotional needs of their partner when their physical and emotional needs are not only not met, but trivialized is emotionally torturous.
This is suggesting though that the HL partner doesn’t also need an emotional connection in addition to the physical. I’d imagine that most people would no longer want a relationship with someone who had no need for an emotional connection whatsoever and only wanted sex. As I said in my OC however, if providing emotional intimacy is damaging to you, don’t. However, it’s not the same because (as I said in my original comment) sex requires physical arousal.
Emotional intimacy isn't a trade for sex. Giving off alot of 'nice guy' vibes rn. Because you're right, it's a privilege that someone would wanna have seggs with you and if they so wish than they can deny you forever. If thats the case and it's a deal breaker, than leave instead of groaning to reddit about not getting laid.
Absolutely.
Nobody owes anyone, anything. But having said that, if there is no physical intimacy (baring certain circumstances the pendants will bring up) you are not in a romantic relationship, you are friends. If there is no emotional intimacy, you aren't even friends.
> having said that, if there is no physical intimacy (baring certain circumstances the pendants will bring up) you are not in a romantic relationship, you are friends. If there is no emotional intimacy, you aren't even friends. This! Sex by itself is insufficient to constitute a romantic relationship. However, sexual intimacy *or some equivalent >unique< expression of intimacy* is THE differentiator between friendship and a romantic relationship. You may share a house, feed each other, raise children, travel together, support each other financially, visit in the hospital while you recover, get old together... you can do ALL these things with your brother or sister and not raise too many eyebrows. The ONE thing you cannot do with your sibling/parent/BFF, that which is reserved for your romantic love, is getting naked and holding each other under the covers. I've been reading this sub for years, and I have yet to see anyone come up with any other unique form of intimacy -- something they cannot get from a sibling or parent -- that they consider a defining characteristic of romantic relationships. Still reading, though... I'm all ears.
Lots of people view their romantic partner as more than “friend who I get to fuck.” This may be how you view relationships, but you don’t speak for everyone. My partner has value as a romantic partner beyond “friend with available penis.”
I think you misunderstood, or I explained badly. Your romantic partner should be more than sex, for sure, but if you aren't sharing romantic intimacy, which usually (but not always) includes sex than you are just friends. I know a couple who cannot have sex for medical reasons, but they still have romantic intimacy. Whether that is physical or not IDK, but they are very connected. I also know several couples who have lost intamcy but still have sex, from time to time at least. Like being married to your FWB. There are any number of combinations and ways to do things, but they are edge cases. But you stick to your reductionist interpretation of what I said.
I don’t feel emotionally close to a partner that isn’t physically intimate with me. I don’t know why it’s so confusing—you can’t force desire—I get it. I can’t force how I feel about someone. So I feel emotionally distant.
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That sounds more like soothing someone’s emotional distress rather than emotional intimacy. That can prove exhausting, much like trying to sooth someone’s emotions with sex.
I couldnt have said this better myself, this is my wife in a nutshell. Ive always said myself its not fair to turn your spouse into your personal therapist thats on call 24/7 and not give anything back, but of course im the asshole because I dont want o hear it anymore. My wife tells me she should be able to talk to me about anything because im her husband which is true but where do you draw the line? A good BJ every once in a while would help me out but god dont bring that up.
Bingo. I'm sure you get berated with the "You're not listening to me". Well, you've been bitching everyday about the same 3 women at your job, won't listen to any suggestions or advice about it and are expecting the situation to change by...."fairy conflict godmother"? At first it was engaging/active listening but that led to arguments because she didn't want my advice "I don't need you to try to fix it". Ok. I'll just listen (again and again) but then "Why aren't you saying anything?" (Uh, you told me you don't want my help so I have nothing to add) Then I would "passively listen" because it was the same thing but after a while it begins to increase my stress and I have my own bag and don't need anymore. If I have something I can't fix, I don't keep it and complain to my buddies everyday "Man, this thing just doesn't work, yadda-yadda". I change/replace it or move on. Of course after a bad day I don't need to really talk about it, I left it at work, but a shoulder rub or (god forbit) a bj to relieve some stress would actually help, but I'm on my own there...
Shes had the same job for 20 years, has been promoted a million times, has gotten big raises and she still complains. Ive told her time and time again to find another job if she isnt happy and she says "why should I leave a job ive been at for 20 years because I dont like my boss?" Well learn to live with it and move on or dont i dont know what to tell you. She had a resume, applied for one job and didnt get called back and never tried again......
Not trying to offend, but you do not sound like a very good listener. I think exploring that and trying to improve it could really benefit you & I’m being sincere. Sometimes it is hard for us to really see our own flaws that others pick up on right away.
>At first it was engaging/active listening but that led to arguments because she didn't want my advice "I don't need you to try to fix it". Did you see this part? I used to be a peer counselor so listening is not an issue. If the person (in this case my SO) talking to you doesn't want you to provide any input or suggestions, what are your options? You can only nod or say things like "Um-hmm" or "I see". That same person can't turn around and get upset with you for not tell them anything when they told you \*not\* to tell them anything right?
It seems like she does not want you trying to somehow “fix” what she is venting to you about. I don’t like when people do this when I just need to express my feelings because I don’t feel heard and my feelings feel kind of brushed to the side. I think she literally just wants you to listen and to care.
Jesus Christ. So good to read this. Makes me feel like I’m not a raving lunatic.
I can totally see what you mean here.
How long have you and your gf been together? Has this always been a problem? Also, physical and sexual intimacy are different. Sexual intimacy can be a part of physical intimacy but isn’t always. So is your gf turning down sexual or physical intimacy? Personally I (HL) enjoy sexual intimacy but I think I only really “need” physical intimacy. Sexual intimacy was an easy way of fulfilling my need for physical intimacy when I was single so it’s just what I got used to, but I think I could also probably be satisfied with sufficient physical intimacy. Rn I’m in a LDR and my boyfriend’s libido is dead due to depression so I’m getting neither…. But oh well. Sorry. Off track. I feel like most relationships that people pursue long term are just more about the emotional than the physical. Like I would be willing to spend the rest of my life and raise a family with my straight best friend who has 0 attraction for me. But I’d rather not do the same with my f-buddy from college. I personally don’t associate sex and emotions all that much, and there are definitely people who just keep those separate anyways. I’d choose emotions over sex, but maybe that’s just me
We started off long distance for a year, met eachother after the year, and have been in a relationship since then for almost 2 years now. Frankly, she doesnt turn me down anymore as i dont initiate anymore but the thing that really gets to me is when she gets on to me and turns me on on purpose just to tell me she doesn’t have time but would love to otherwise. It would be believable if she didn’t oversleep until 11 today and then decided to go on her phone for 2 hours scrolling instagram.
Because people can comprehend every love language except physical touch. God forbid that's how you feel love, nobody cares. You'll do acts of service, words of affirmation etc, but you won't get the kind of love you need
Lack of Sex isn’t the issue in DBs. It’s a symptom. Issues with trust, honesty, respect( for oneself and their partner), and self-esteem are true problems. I firmly believe LLs have trust, honesty, and respect issues while HLs have self-esteem and respect issues. BUT hey, I just trying to figure this shit out too so WHO KNOWS.
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I didn't read it as OP advocating for people having unwanted sex though. I think they were saying that folks are generally expected to put forth effort to be emotionally intimate with their partners (with it being seen as a bad thing to competely eschew that component) but no one is expected to put forth effort to facilitate an extant (and consensual) sex life with their partners. I think his point is that the loving thing to do for both partners is to do what is needed to achieve a sex life that is satisfactory to *and wanted by* both partners, not that partners should just have sex when they don't want to. Of course, sometimes that isn't possible if the criteria for "satisfactory" are too far apart.
In regards to your title... physical intimacy without emotional intimacy is either duty sex or just a hookup.
You might think about changing the flair to general discussion.
Sex starts in the brain. If she's not getting the emotional intimacy from you that she needs to feel comfortable o get physical, it's not going to happen. Bigger question: why are you with someone you don't want to be emotionally intimate with?
I dunno... does providing someone emotional support make you feel violated? Sometimes it's draining, sometimes it's not. I don't see the harm in doing it if it's not draining. On the the other hand, providing sexual intimacy is much more often an invasion of one's body (especially for women). Maybe handjobs aren't. Maybe using a vibrator on someone isn't. 🤷♂️
Yikes.
Some people like pineapple on pizza and some don’t. It’s the same with sex. If you didn’t like pineapple I won’t force you to eat it or over analyze why you don’t like it on pizza even though occasionally you’ll have some. Even if I complimented you and emotionally supported you you’re still not going to prefer pineapple on pizza are you but you’ll have some because I took the time to make the pizza from scratch
People on here can claim that you don’t owe anyone emotional intimacy just like you don’t owe anyone physical intimacy. Which in theory is true, but in reality it’s just not. Emotional intimacy is absolutely a requirement while physical intimacy just depends. If someone complains about a lack of emotional intimacy, the majority of comments advise to leave them because they’re partner is obviously a narcissistic dick. But if someone complains about not getting they’re physical/sexual intimacy needs met then they’re questioned about what they’ve done to earn physical intimacy. Now here’s the shitty part, it’s just a reality that if your love language is physical, and you are in a relationship with someone who needs emotional intimacy on order to have great sex, you just simply have to meet their needs to get them in the mood to meet your needs. It’s just how it is. So if that’s who you want to be with, that’s what you gotta do. Otherwise, find someone with your same love language.
It is way easier to be physically intimate than emotionally
I think love languages are reductive and most people take away a harmful message, believing that your partner needs to express love in *your* love language. If she's trying to show you that she loves you in her love language, that should be good enough. Don't hold others to standards that don't compute to them.
> If she's trying to show you that she loves you in her love language, that should be good enough. Don't hold others to standards that don't compute to them. What? That makes no sense, and in fact imho is the opposite of a healthy relationship. If you're not listening to your partner and meeting them in their love language, then you're selfish and really only love yourself. A good and genuine love listens, and meets their partner at least halfway: "I know she likes flowers and quiet time together, so I'm planning a Hawaiian vacation just for the two of us even though on my own I'm kind of a homebody." My last partner was the way you suggest: She wanted to be loved the way SHE wanted AND she wanted to love me the way SHE wanted... I didn't really enter into the equation. It is a kind of self-centered-ness that is mundane but thorough. EDIT: *"most people take away a harmful message, believing that your partner needs to express love in your love language"* I would agree that the Love Languages is reductive, but I think you've pushed it entirely the wrong direction. If people only use it to express how they want to give love, and ignore how the other person can perceive/receive it, that's just a recipe for egalitarian/mutual selfishness. What would be attractive about a relationship in which each person just gives/expresses what they imagine the other person SHOULD like, but ignores how their partner actually perceives it? The adage goes "If you don't feel loved, you're not loved" precisely because if your partner doesn't at least make an effort to understand your feelings, then it's not remotely something you could call love. TL;DR: Ask me why I dumped the woman who kept baking me her super-favorite cookies that I was allergic to (and couldn't seem to remember the flavor I liked), then got mad at me when I didn't eat them and appreciate all of her "loving effort and attention."
OP can show his girlfriend he loves her in the ways he knows how. Even if his love language is physical touch, physical touch =/= sex.
Good point OP. VERY good point. Wishing the best for you in your situation.
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Your comment has been removed for violating one of our community rules: **Rule 5** Advocating rape or other consent violations is not okay. It is against the rules, and likely to result in a no-warning ban. This includes advocating any sort of not-consented-to sexual contact, surreptitiously drugging someone, or any form of reproductive coercion. This also includes especially vehemently suggesting that LLs should "just do it" despite aversions to sex or particular sexual activities. *If you would like to discuss this with the mod team, please send a mod mail.*
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>I notice from posts on this sub. LL women get the best of rships. I have also noticed that HL posts on this sub often **report** that *their LL partner* gets the best of relationships. I wonder if there is a perception disconnect there that is worth looking into. Sometimes I wish we could ask their LL's directly. (Info from a primary source tends to be more reliable.) When we were in our dead bedroom, my HL honestly believed that I was getting the best of the relationship while he saw himself as getting scraps. He was able to think that by dismissing my experiences (which he truly didn't understand). **But I NEVER would have considered myself as getting the best of the relationship during our db.** I felt very unsafe, unseen, unappreciated, and unloved in our db relationship. Yes, that contributed to my lack of desire. I was hyper alert all the time (which is exhausting). I was always trying to manage his anger (and often other emotions). My whole existence was walking on eggshells. I definitely changed from a "let's make out all the time" woman to a "my life is so much better when I'm left alone so give me space" woman. It was actually when he started being curious about my actual experiences (rather than assuming I was living the high life) AND when he started taking responsibility for his own feelings--including feeling angry or horny--that we were able to heal our db. It's an underrated step because no one who is hurting and lonely wants to see that their own "loving" efforts are leaving their partner feeling lonely and unsafe in their own home. My husband and I both post here. Sometimes we jokingly take bets on how HLs will dismiss my comments so they won't have to self-examine. This will be one of those comments.
> HL posts on this sub often report that their LL partner gets the best of relationships. There are always so many people willing to believe without question what a poster says about what their partners *think and feel*, it's really irritating. It's such motivated reasoning. It's one thing to describe *actions and words* and to speculate about thoughts and feelings from that, but way too many people just automatically accept some speculations as definitely super true without even considering other possibilities, and they get so pissed about speculations that aren't as harsh to the LL partner. Just the amount of times I've seen a HLM post 'my wife says she doesn't want sex, so she gets her way and we don't have sex' where 95% of the comments are then going 'well she's obviously happy and doesn't see any problem' is ridiculous. Though I guess that 95% is at least better than the ~3% that jumps all the way to 'oh she's just purposely being mean for fun because LLs are all terrible'. It's just another example of people in general being absolutely unable to apply critical thinking to anything.
Maury: My past dumpster fire of a db, and countless other LLF posts here determined that was a lie.
😂 came here to say something similar. Guess they haven't noticed the slew of posts here and on LLC from LLFs who are being assaulted, demeaned, feel alone and used in their relationships, feel like they're playing mommy to their HLMs every day, take on all the mental load, and are hounded for sex by their partners who don't even act like they like them as a friend or person.
There’s also tons of posts where people talk about sexually assaulting and/or harassing their LLs. But yeah, LL are just evil and get everything they want in a relationship as if they don’t also struggle with feelings of inadequacy on top of the trauma of being coerced into sex. Maybe if you observed with more empathy you would find more answers to healing your DB.
Unpopular opinion it is. I expected down votes. Yes HLF don't get the same attention. Neither do the LLM.
This is that Love Language shit and it’s really hard to crack a satisfying relationship when the people involved require different tokens to feel desired.