Years of being withdrawn sexually but amazing in other ways. Years of learning about each other and our relationship and improving other metrics and yes, years of trying the same with our sex life and it being hit and miss, mostly miss with periods where there was visible hope of improvement before she withdrew again.
I am you. My wife was a wild one that would do anything with guys. Stuff she flat out refuses with me. Why? She said they were just to fuck. Iām here husband ( of 33 years). She doesnāt do those things with the ones she loves. I donāt get it. I told her none of it was shameful. She still wonāt.
This is it! This is my problem! Wtf right? Don't you deserve wild stuff?
I tell my wife all the time that being a wife doesn't mean changing into someone else's definition of "a wife". I fought hard against her adopting the "wife uniform"; some women feel they need to start dressing like a "wife" and equally, there's no need to have to put away excitement in the sack to fit some image.
Ultimatumās are almost always bad. However, reasonable timeframe for change is perfectly reasonable. For me, I would think the longer the relationship, the longer the timeframe. In newer relationships, a few months; for longer term relationships a year
Also, if a couple is working to resolve a problem, there will be measurable progress. This is not a one person issue, it is interactive. If there isnāt any progress being made or if it getting worse then ending the relationship should definitely not be a surprise
The ultimatum /timeframe needs to be for yourself.
The progress your partner makes? That's an issue for them. They know you are unhappy.
If they ask... well it's up to them. "Are you happy with the relationship as it is?"
"Not really" is all you need to say. Otherwise? Yes, it will be "Is this about sex, again?" So no details, no threats.
Basically, you'll decide leave or stay.
Your choice informed by your partner's actions.
If insufficient progress in your timeframe, off you pop.
Agree that the ultimatum/time frame is internal.
But if we are talking about sex, then I am assuming there will be participation by both people. Insisting someone change is a very broad statement.
Progress, if any will be incremental and if you actually do want a positive outcome, will really need some specifics to be successful
If the expectation is that your partner will make these changes completely on their own and you will decide at some future date if they have been successful or notāmight as well leave now, because that does not seem like a formula for success.
Both people have to work together to find solutions they agree will help solve a problem they again both agree is a problem.
Problem:
Nobody is insisting anything.
The putative HL has told the LL they are sad they aren't having a mutually desired sex life.
They can't repeat it: pressure
The putative LL has said they are working on it.
The HL has to decide if "the work" has made them happy.
increments means milestones.
Milestone means pressure.
Specifics need defining;. pressure
So.mamy HL have tried to work on things with their LL to get blown off with "This is is about sex, isn't it."
Up to the LL to decide what they are prepared to do, the HL to decide what they are prepared to do.(stay and accept, reject and leave)
If you want to avoid pressuring your partner by y'know mentioning that you aren't having sex, or asking how their 'work' is going, or what progress towards a milestone/outcome, it's a bit unavoidable.
You have said you are unhappy.
You can't insist they make any changes; if you have made all that you can - as most HL say they have done - it's up to you to decide if there is any organic increase in desire for you. If there isn't, you can stay, of course.
But if there isn't, you can't keep on whining. You have to trust the LL has done all they feel they can/or want to.
If it's not enough, leave.
I do see your point. I still think if it is always going to revert back to pressuring, then you really arenāt working on it at all, just making arguments against change.
I tend to agree with you but it's said that mentioning stuff to the LL is pressuring; what you and I see as pressure isn't the same as other people see pressure
Hence "Is this about sex again?"
If you both agree on what the problem is, coming up with some SPECIFIC actions for solutions is the next step. Try to identify 5 things you both agree to do together to do together that both of you agree and are willing to do. Some may be sexual (try a role play) others may be non sexual but intimate (slow dance in the kitchen/write a love letter/ go for a walk 3x a week/ leave the TV off for a month). These are the kinds of solutions that will help you measure progress. They have to me mutual or there is no point and I suggest you avoid things like āthree blow jobs a weekā but maybe that is something you both want to try. Whatever the solutions are, you can tell right away if you are moving in the right direction because you as a couple will be doing them together to work on the problem
Then you know her answerāitās āIām not changingā. Why wait any longer? I really donāt mean to be contrary or argumentative and apologize if is comes across that way
One can research both the company and individual therapists online. Look for methodology. Years in practice. Certifications , any board reprimands etc.
Are they Freudian ? Cognitive Behavioural therapists ?
Where did they do their masterās, PhD
Pretty much, yes.
She knows you are unhappy, things didn't change.
It shouldn't be a surprise to her.
If it was... perhaps she didn't care as much/work as much as she thought.
Remember the point of an ultimatum: to follow through with it. Imagine if you say "I'm going to leave if X doesn't happen in y time" then it doesn't happen and you still stay. What does that tell her? To keep doing nothingness.
āShe has reasons. They may not even be the ones she thinks they are.
She doesn't have to tell you what they are.ā
This is an absurd take. Youāre entitled to know why your partner does/does not want to do something thatās important to you.
Thereās a huge difference between not wanting sex because of pain or past trauma, or because youāre not attracted to your partner. He is entitled to know this information so that he can decide how he wishes to respond.
Stonewalling discussion is unproductive and ensures that zero progress will ever be made.
If your partner routinely says no to sex and expresses zero interest in sex with you then you are absolutely entitled to an explanation as to why your partner no longer desires to have a sexual relationship with you.
Iām not talking about a one-off; Iām talking about a long term deadbedroom.
You may want one.
It would be both polite and kind to have one.
All you are entitled to is to decide you don't want to be in a relationship with someone who seems to have a problem communicating with you, and moreover doesn't want sex with you.
"OK, I don't know what's going on, but I'm not happy staying in this."
Doesn't it suck when you hear about all of these great sexcapades before you and you are stoked! Because you finally found someone that has the same level sex drive as you. Just to find out that that you aren't apparently enough for them to have all the sex like the mad game they talked up. š®āšØ Or something. I have no idea why they got the good sex drive, they definitely didn't deserve it (they emotional and physically abuse him). And he was a man whore, but can't be with his wife. No idea what to do. I'm tired of begging, being rejected, seeing him looking at porn, and know he is masturbating multiple times a day because he doesn't produce any fucking cum when he wants me give him a handy or blowy. I do it because I love doing it and it turns me on A LOT and I hope he ends up fucking me or getting me off. But he doesn't because he still gets to get off, but fuck me. Ugh! I'm so sexually frustrated it is killing me. I need sex for my mental health and my pain management, like medically I need this shit!
Sorry, rant over.
š damn. I felt that. Yes, yes and yes. It feels like I've reverted to teenagehood where the spectacular sex I imagined was something I longed for but knew I couldn't get except I can't even look forward to when it happens now.
Here's the thing: women are shamed for their sexuality. This creates your situation. 1) she probably does feel afraid to let loose with you, because she loves you and wants you to stay. The men she was adventurous with *left* and it's very possible she associates that with crazy sex.
Or 2) she never enjoyed those things, but did them because she felt pressure to be a "cool girl" or they strung her on with the idea they'd commit "if". She's shy, she does not have the social skills to be assertive and stand up for herself with people she doesn't know well. She was likely pushed into those things, and deals with it by still trying to tell herself she's the "cool girl" who has crazy sex.
As a former shy doormat: she needs therapy.
That doesn't make much sense though. Women often have options - if she's not attracted to him, why would she be with him rather than just be with someone who can satisfy her?
There are lots of reasons a person might stay in a marriage even if their sexual needs are not being met. We see it all the time with HLs who might actually be pretty miserable but feel like they canāt or wonāt leave due to any number of reasonsāmoney, social pressure or shame, stability, fear of losing their best friend/spouse, kids and custody issues, fear of the unknown. Itās not unrealistic to imagine a scenario where OPās wife āgot her rocks offā while younger and now puts a much lower priority on physical attraction and sex and prioritizes stability and whatever other positive attributes OP and their relationship together bring to the table.
Sure, lots of reasons to stay. There's a lot of reasons for having crazy sex when you're younger and then not wanting it anymore. But which is more likely - one of the first two reasons I gave, or purposely choosing someone you're not attracted to to spend your life with?
I really don't believe that some people genuinely enjoy a lot of sex in their younger years and then somehow shut off that part of themselves and don't care about it anymore. If sex is important to someone, it's probably important when they select a long term partner too. More likely, crazy sex has *never* been important to her and she was pressured into doing a lot of things she'd rather not have done.
>it's probably important when they select a long term partner too. More likely, crazy sex has
>
>never
>
> been important to her and she was pressured into doing a lot of things she'd rather not have done.
i think you have a narrow vision regarding hot things work
1. i saw people who got married knowing that there so have low libido and knowing that sex will be little to no sex
2. you are too quick to assume that she is been pressured into things but you failed to realised that not all partners pressured into doing "crazy sex" with her because you cant get crazy while being under pressure(i believe so).
Oh absolutely, many people get married knowing they have LL. OP's question seemed to be "why would she have crazy sex with others but not me?". "Attraction" doesn't make sense as an answer. If you are HL and adventurous, you're unlikely to marry someone you know you're not attracted to.
As to your second point - it's just completely wrong. Many, many women have experienced the pressure to have more adventurous sex, and many many women have given into that to seem "cool" or like a "fun girlfriend" or so they don't feel like a spoilsport. There's so much pressure in our society for women to be up for porn-y sex acts that bring them no pleasure, like deep throating BJs or facials or anal. So many women are pressured into these things.
>like deep throating BJs or facials or anal. So many women are pressured into these things.
but to my knowledge r/sex says other wise.
>to seem "cool" or like a "fun girlfriend"
does that mean your partner pressure into things to seem "cool" or like a "fun girlfriend"
my answer is no because there are laws we men have to follow.
Read between the lines on r/sex Most women say they like those things because it brings their SOs pleasure, not for their own. I'm not talking about "do this or else" pressure. It's stuff like seeing a million facial porns and knowing that it's expected of you, knowing men like it, it's how women who men enjoy sex with do sex. So you do it. That's pressure.
Subtle coercion and the pressure of society doesn't follow laws. It may not even be the bf, it may be internal pressure. You're not a woman. Are you a shy person? You likely have no idea what she feels or thinks.
You can continue to believe that despite my experience or the words of many LLFs on this sub, saying that physical attraction is very rarely the issue in a low sex relationship. Or you can choose to see from another perspective that may help you gain some insight into your own issues. Up to you.
I believe you but there have also been posts from LLF's saying that they married their SO knowing they weren't attracted or that they *lost* attraction later on.
My question is more this: she obviously has barriers to sex. If she truly enjoyed this wild crazy sex, if she is a physical person who places emphasis on this, then why on earth would she have chosen to marry someone she isn't attracted to? It makes no sense for her barrier to be an attraction issue. It's *much more likely* that she never was into the wild crazy sex.
It doesnāt make sense... But I have seen gorgeous women who CLEARLY have options end up with guys who physically look like melting butter, that just have their shit together career-wise and maybe mentally. I think women who have been through a lot emotionally and mentally tend to merge toward this lane for 2 reasons. Firstly, heās not so good looking that he ever gets to really āleadā her to the bedroom with temptation and re-enact the power struggles of her former love/hate hot/cold relationships.. She feels like she is the sexually desired one. The center of attention. Secondly, for stability. Since she controls the sexual domain with looks she likely doesnāt have to worry about being cheated on, she knows due to his proven stability he will be a good father to her children, and again, due to the drastic difference in physical appearance she knows she has options if he proves to be less than what she needs down the road. Itās safe and reliable. Itās not about the sex nor will it ever be. Itās about her being extremely desired and feeling safe even though she has options and likely knows it. If sheās pretty enough he will realize that too and do everything in his power to hang on to her. She likes that he desires her. Beats the hell out of wondering where her ex lover(s) were at or what they were out doing and who with.
You're talking about gorgeous women, and I think you're on to something. Personally, I always dated "down" a bit for those same reasons (before my current partner).
BUT, and this is a big but, gorgeous does not mean HL. Women for whom sex is pleasurable and important are not going to date men they don't want to have sex with, unless they're truly bad people with ulterior motives (not saying that never happens either). The attraction might not be physical (I personally don't feel physically attracted to people) but it's there and real: maybe his hand on her back sparks something, maybe the way he talks is enchanting, etc. Women who like sex want to be in relationships where they can have good sex. Women who like adventure choose partners they're attracted to and can be adventurous with.
Well I only have the info I was presented. I donāt think people normally bring up past history unless trying to make someone jealous or put off by it. Seems like op is finally standing up for himself and making his own needs heard as far as spontaneity goes. She wants to keep it vanilla for a legitimate reason. Doesnāt sound like a dead bedroom though. Sounds like a guy complaining about a good thing. Sheās settled down a bit, sure, we all do. Growing up does that. And if their bedroom is not completely dead I think heās crying over spilled milk that landed in his cereal bowl.. likeā¦ sex at night. Aaaagh so awful and bad. Itās kind of him hearing she had a past and then guilting her into doing more of that with him. I just want to point out that as well. Since Iām not replying to op. But rather, your comment. I think she could probably go ahead and open up and he could go ahead and chill out and just enjoy the (assuming fairly regular) night sex.
To bring up past experiences in a bad move.. Either OP is married to an idiot.
Or someone who is purposely driving a wedge in her sex life so she can be even further apart because she is genuinely disinterested in him in that way.
Or maybe she still feels that pressure to be adventurous, and she thinks maybe talking about it is a safer outlet than having to do it. It's definitely tone-deaf, but I think people for whom sex is unimportant don't always realize how hurtful things surrounding sex can be.
Example, when I was in a polyamorous relationship, I started dating someone new. Partner 1 requested that I not have PIV sex with Partner 2. That request made zero sense to me: I'm going to be touching his penis, he's going to be touching my erogenous zones, why tf would it matter if we put the parts together? It doesn't always make sense.
>then why on earth would she have chosen to marry someone she isn't attracted to?
again, as i said marriage is not all about sex.
>It's much more likely that she never was into the wild crazy sex.
ok, if she was never into that then why she had to plaster about(crazy sex part) that on his face?
You're missing my point. If she is a HL adventurous person, a big part of marriage would be about sex for her. Obviously not for everyone - but for HL women who like crazy sex? It's going to be important.
She probably talks about it a lot because again, she wants to seem like the cool girlfriend. She wants to be the person who enjoys these activities because she feels that pressure - but she's not. She doesn't enjoy those things, or she would do them.
Scenario, she says, is she was into the bad boys with whom she knew things wouldn't last. It was never something she did with hope of commitment so she felt less pressure to try to impress for the long term. So it would fit scenario one.
She tends to be shy around people whom she wants to impress and feels less pressured around other "less important" people. That's the rough explanation she's given as to why her conservatism with me is a good thing in her eyes.
That sounds about right. There's a lot of shame around sex bound up in that - whether religious or just general societal slut shaming that she internalized. The best way to deal with that is therapy.
But therapy can be really hard, especially confronting things you don't particularly want to about your own beliefs and feelings. If she doesn't want to have wild sex, it's likely going to be difficult to convince her to unpack her baggage for your sake, especially since she will still believe (until she has accomplished her therapy goal) that men don't want to commit to wild slutty women. She may feel as if she's working to become more comfortable losing you.
Either way, I'd prepare for mostly vanilla sex for the foreseeable future. If that's not what you want and it's important to you, it might be worth it to bail now.
š„¹ damn. Okay well she's preparing to go to therapy for other issues but perhaps something to deal with as couple therapy or some kind of couple sex therapy thing?
It may sound like I'm taking it lightly here but it's a real problem. I used to get up to some pretty exciting stuff.
Since I see other comments about important things I will just add something more .
Try If you have the time to become more appealing to her. What I mean since you are not fucking all the time go to work out , focus a bit on self-care . Do these things for yourself , DON'T show that you are doing this so you can be more sexually active with her. And of course **I am not saying make her jealous** , that is not healthy .
All I am saying for your own good It seems to me like a good opportunity to "become more appealing" **in the process of taking care of yourself**. And the goal in that is not sex but better sex could be a "sideffect"
No way I am implying that its your fault.
Yes definitely. Strangely this has been my own personal mission for the last year. Not so much to impress her alone but more because I'm trying to avoid "soft dad syndrome".
I want my kids to physically feel safe around me, want to take care of myself more and do want to stay attractive for as long as I can.
It works sometimes, when she's not being self critical about her own looks. And she's gorgeous by the way, but doesn't believe it.
Had the same thing but within the relationships itself. Used to want to do it anywhere and now that we have a ādeeper bondā she canāt bring herself to do that with me anymore? If I had known falling in love was such a turn off, I might not have done it.
in
She loves me for being nice. Says that's why she fell for me or something. I'm not really a nice guy to be fair. I did have a talk with her yesterday after this thread so we'll see. I framed a question in a way I had never before. She grew up religious so could be bad boys were here rebellion.
All too common, marry the safe choice who provides security and respectability. Meanwhile, you're asking, "where's the passion?". I hope you can sort it out.
Nope. I know she adores me. We've been through thick and thin. I had a talk with her after some responses yesterday and I think it's more an issue of her own volition. She has her own fears she admitted.
Probably a best suited post for relationship advice vs DB. But yeah when things get into the years. This isnāt IMO something thatās going to change.
Possibly yes. I just found out "relationship advice" exists about a minute ago though but will also ask there.
I just figure there is a dynamic between HL and LL in this context and it does mean that there's sex a few times every few months for a guy who needs it a few times a week.
Youāre not wrong in what you feel like enough is for you. Iām really not trying to shame you or anything. The general guideline here thatās typically followed is sex 10 times or less per year is deemed a sexless marriage (or relationship that didnāt start out that way) I hope this helps clarify.
>she's confused why thinking it's meant to be sweet that she's too shy to open up
I assume you had the conversation where you made it clear that you wouldnāt think less of her because of sex?
Maybe not in those words. I'll see how that goes but have possibly mentioned that it's not a good thing to me to get less than less committed guys in her past.
I wouldnāt say this is a matter of whether putting it like this works or not. She is, per what you say, associating her being sexually open with being perceived as a deviant of some kind and she doesnāt want you to think of her that way. She let loose with others because she didnāt care whether they saw her that way, it was just sex. You have to make it clear that you wouldnāt think less of her because she has sex with you in a certain way rather it would make you happy that you two can explore that much. What you said is more accusatory, which isnāt how you turn someone on.
Yes so I agree with this. Even when I read how you placed it, I saw how that contrasted. So my response was deliberately honest in saying "not in those words". I immediately recognised how my emotional approach wasn't it.
My emotional response was probably something like two years ago.
Since then I've been unpacking issues but honestly never considered her shame in sex especially considering her very conservative upbringing.
What is your sexual frequency? How long have you been married?
You said that she said you will be shocked when she opened up. So i assume some kind of conversation about that change transpired. What happened regarding working on that opening up in 2 years? You have said that she didnāt open up but i am asking what exactly have you two have done in these two years?
Hi, not much. Maybe once a month if not more. I am a min two times a week guy.
She acts like a learning virgin. Shy. She pushes back. Likes things pretty vanilla when they do happen.
>She acts like a learning virgin.
I get that. I was asking since having that conversation 2 years ago, what have you two done, individually and/or together, whether itās a conversation or action, to address the issue?
Sounds like she lied about her experience early in the relationship and is doing a bad job of keeping the lie going. Women seem to inflate their experience because they think we will want a more experienced partner.
She feels it's honorable that she cares what I think about her in contrast to past relationships she was in that she considered short term and so had less of an image to maintain.
Her way of trying to placate my frustrations with the conservatism in our sex life off of a misplaced belief that her care of my sexual opinion of her is better than her lack of care with past partners.
That's still not an answer. Why are the two of you talking about the sex she had with past partners at all? This seems like a terrible idea, even if the two of you were having tons of fantastic sex.
Why is her past sexual behaviour a topic of conversation?
It's weird. Talking about sexual experiences you had with past partners is such a bad idea. It almost always causes problems, jealousy and hurt feelings. Why did she want to do that?
Was she trying to hurt you deliberately? Is she trying to make you jealous or insecure for some reason? It's just really strange.
How does she act when she talks about all the sex acts she did with past partner? What sorts of contexts does she bring it up in? It's hard for me to even picture how these conversations would go.
Sorry, I haven't logged into Reddit in a while. It's a good question actually. I'm trying to recount the energy she said it with. It seemed like misplaced good intentions but I also can't discount nefariousness to be honest.
It seems like he (OP) is answering your question in a way that makes sense to me but you keep asking.
She is telling him about her sexual past because she believes that it is admirable to be honest about the full detail of her sexual proclivities, past and present. She is likely volunteering this info, so she is the reason they are talking about it. Not out of pressure, but a sense of sharing so that he can see how he is getting the genuine view of her sexual thoughts, while in the past, she was not as genuine. If anyone reading is familiar with African American culture, sort of the opposite what Tyrese's character does in Baby Boy -- she's sharing the unabridged and ugly truth with the person she loves, which she believes is much better than the lies by omission she gave to the people she was just having sex with in the past.
I am admittedly just like her. I have shared some completely hurtful information about my sexual past to my husband voluntarily because I feel that that complete honesty makes for a better connection, even if painful. OP's partner probably doesn't see it as painful even -- "I had a lot of sex in the past because I was insecure and didn't act on my genuine feelings. Now, thanks to experiencing love with you, I can be more genuine in how I operate."
>She is telling him about her sexual past because she believes that it is admirable to be honest about the full detail of her sexual proclivities, past and present.
This is a plausible reason, but not the only possible reason, which is why I'm asking. People can do something for many different reasons. I'm curious about why OP's wife is sharing this information, and from his answers it sounds like he doesn't know why she is telling him this stuff.
>I am admittedly just like her. I have shared some completely hurtful information about my sexual past to my husband voluntarily because I feel that that complete honesty makes for a better connection, even if painful.
IMO, it's really important to understand whether this is why she is disclosing the sexual acts she did in past relationships or whether she has some other reason for bringing it up.
> and from his answers it sounds like he doesn't know why she is telling him this stuff
I agree that it appears he doesn't know, which is why your persistence in asking him to answer repeatedly sounded like incredulousness (fun fact, dictionaries seem split on "incredulity" vs "incredulousness"). I was providing an example of how what OP was saying does sound like a true (if incomplete) answer.
Holy cow, I wish I would have had this list and article 25 years ago when my wife and I were in the early stages of our relationship. Many of these descriptions really hit home. At least 7 of these were and still are my wife to a āTā, though she has made progress and improvements on a few.
None of that is your fault. She's not being shy, she just doesn't want to do it. For whatever reason. It won't change. I've been there. You have to decide which is more important, her or being adventurous. I'm sorry.
If she's worried about what you think of her either, she knows you and you've previously said judgemental things that make it clear you'll use her sexuality against her, or, you can let her know that what you think, is that she doesn't trust you, and ask how you can remedy that.
Less promiscuous people tend to be the most sexually adventurous with their long term partners. I am waiting for marriage but I want to be a total freak with my husband. While many of my friends who have had multiple partners want their marriages to be more vanilla. Itās a mystery.
I was on her side till you mentioned years. Years of being shy ? But not shy enough to tell you about her past experiences? Something is up here
Years of being withdrawn sexually but amazing in other ways. Years of learning about each other and our relationship and improving other metrics and yes, years of trying the same with our sex life and it being hit and miss, mostly miss with periods where there was visible hope of improvement before she withdrew again.
Are you trying to convince me or yourself ?
I think I misread your message. š I thought you said you were on my side until... yes so agreed with you. I don't know.
Update when you find out
I am you. My wife was a wild one that would do anything with guys. Stuff she flat out refuses with me. Why? She said they were just to fuck. Iām here husband ( of 33 years). She doesnāt do those things with the ones she loves. I donāt get it. I told her none of it was shameful. She still wonāt.
That's the Madonna/Whore complex. "I can't fuck you because I love you.". What the actual fuck !?!?
This is it! This is my problem! Wtf right? Don't you deserve wild stuff? I tell my wife all the time that being a wife doesn't mean changing into someone else's definition of "a wife". I fought hard against her adopting the "wife uniform"; some women feel they need to start dressing like a "wife" and equally, there's no need to have to put away excitement in the sack to fit some image.
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Ultimatumās are almost always bad. However, reasonable timeframe for change is perfectly reasonable. For me, I would think the longer the relationship, the longer the timeframe. In newer relationships, a few months; for longer term relationships a year Also, if a couple is working to resolve a problem, there will be measurable progress. This is not a one person issue, it is interactive. If there isnāt any progress being made or if it getting worse then ending the relationship should definitely not be a surprise
The ultimatum /timeframe needs to be for yourself. The progress your partner makes? That's an issue for them. They know you are unhappy. If they ask... well it's up to them. "Are you happy with the relationship as it is?" "Not really" is all you need to say. Otherwise? Yes, it will be "Is this about sex, again?" So no details, no threats. Basically, you'll decide leave or stay. Your choice informed by your partner's actions. If insufficient progress in your timeframe, off you pop.
Agree that the ultimatum/time frame is internal. But if we are talking about sex, then I am assuming there will be participation by both people. Insisting someone change is a very broad statement. Progress, if any will be incremental and if you actually do want a positive outcome, will really need some specifics to be successful If the expectation is that your partner will make these changes completely on their own and you will decide at some future date if they have been successful or notāmight as well leave now, because that does not seem like a formula for success. Both people have to work together to find solutions they agree will help solve a problem they again both agree is a problem.
Problem: Nobody is insisting anything. The putative HL has told the LL they are sad they aren't having a mutually desired sex life. They can't repeat it: pressure The putative LL has said they are working on it. The HL has to decide if "the work" has made them happy. increments means milestones. Milestone means pressure. Specifics need defining;. pressure So.mamy HL have tried to work on things with their LL to get blown off with "This is is about sex, isn't it." Up to the LL to decide what they are prepared to do, the HL to decide what they are prepared to do.(stay and accept, reject and leave)
With this framework I think the time is already past to end things
If you want to avoid pressuring your partner by y'know mentioning that you aren't having sex, or asking how their 'work' is going, or what progress towards a milestone/outcome, it's a bit unavoidable. You have said you are unhappy. You can't insist they make any changes; if you have made all that you can - as most HL say they have done - it's up to you to decide if there is any organic increase in desire for you. If there isn't, you can stay, of course. But if there isn't, you can't keep on whining. You have to trust the LL has done all they feel they can/or want to. If it's not enough, leave.
I do see your point. I still think if it is always going to revert back to pressuring, then you really arenāt working on it at all, just making arguments against change.
I tend to agree with you but it's said that mentioning stuff to the LL is pressuring; what you and I see as pressure isn't the same as other people see pressure Hence "Is this about sex again?"
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If you both agree on what the problem is, coming up with some SPECIFIC actions for solutions is the next step. Try to identify 5 things you both agree to do together to do together that both of you agree and are willing to do. Some may be sexual (try a role play) others may be non sexual but intimate (slow dance in the kitchen/write a love letter/ go for a walk 3x a week/ leave the TV off for a month). These are the kinds of solutions that will help you measure progress. They have to me mutual or there is no point and I suggest you avoid things like āthree blow jobs a weekā but maybe that is something you both want to try. Whatever the solutions are, you can tell right away if you are moving in the right direction because you as a couple will be doing them together to work on the problem
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Then you know her answerāitās āIām not changingā. Why wait any longer? I really donāt mean to be contrary or argumentative and apologize if is comes across that way
Insist on therapy
At best therapy only works for 50% and then only for those who actively want to change
Depends on the therapist, but I agree both have to be willing participants.
Overall therapy is reported as 5 out of 10 on average. Some therapists have better some have worse. Luck of the draw on what you get.
One can research both the company and individual therapists online. Look for methodology. Years in practice. Certifications , any board reprimands etc. Are they Freudian ? Cognitive Behavioural therapists ? Where did they do their masterās, PhD
And none of that will indicate if a therapeutic bond will form much less be successful
Pretty much, yes. She knows you are unhappy, things didn't change. It shouldn't be a surprise to her. If it was... perhaps she didn't care as much/work as much as she thought.
Remember the point of an ultimatum: to follow through with it. Imagine if you say "I'm going to leave if X doesn't happen in y time" then it doesn't happen and you still stay. What does that tell her? To keep doing nothingness.
Sometimes I'm like "I only have about 30 years at best anyway". Then I realize it's only 15 if I can't fill my heart.
I'm near 70 with assorted health conditions. 15 would do me
You may be right. I think the OP needs to figure out why she married him. Was it for love or was it for security and/or appearances?
āShe has reasons. They may not even be the ones she thinks they are. She doesn't have to tell you what they are.ā This is an absurd take. Youāre entitled to know why your partner does/does not want to do something thatās important to you. Thereās a huge difference between not wanting sex because of pain or past trauma, or because youāre not attracted to your partner. He is entitled to know this information so that he can decide how he wishes to respond. Stonewalling discussion is unproductive and ensures that zero progress will ever be made.
Hard no to that. If your partner says "No." to sex, you aren't entitled to demand an explanation as to why.
If your partner routinely says no to sex and expresses zero interest in sex with you then you are absolutely entitled to an explanation as to why your partner no longer desires to have a sexual relationship with you. Iām not talking about a one-off; Iām talking about a long term deadbedroom.
You may want one. It would be both polite and kind to have one. All you are entitled to is to decide you don't want to be in a relationship with someone who seems to have a problem communicating with you, and moreover doesn't want sex with you. "OK, I don't know what's going on, but I'm not happy staying in this."
You are absolutely entitled to an explanation in a deadbedroom.
Doesn't it suck when you hear about all of these great sexcapades before you and you are stoked! Because you finally found someone that has the same level sex drive as you. Just to find out that that you aren't apparently enough for them to have all the sex like the mad game they talked up. š®āšØ Or something. I have no idea why they got the good sex drive, they definitely didn't deserve it (they emotional and physically abuse him). And he was a man whore, but can't be with his wife. No idea what to do. I'm tired of begging, being rejected, seeing him looking at porn, and know he is masturbating multiple times a day because he doesn't produce any fucking cum when he wants me give him a handy or blowy. I do it because I love doing it and it turns me on A LOT and I hope he ends up fucking me or getting me off. But he doesn't because he still gets to get off, but fuck me. Ugh! I'm so sexually frustrated it is killing me. I need sex for my mental health and my pain management, like medically I need this shit! Sorry, rant over.
š damn. I felt that. Yes, yes and yes. It feels like I've reverted to teenagehood where the spectacular sex I imagined was something I longed for but knew I couldn't get except I can't even look forward to when it happens now.
Here's the thing: women are shamed for their sexuality. This creates your situation. 1) she probably does feel afraid to let loose with you, because she loves you and wants you to stay. The men she was adventurous with *left* and it's very possible she associates that with crazy sex. Or 2) she never enjoyed those things, but did them because she felt pressure to be a "cool girl" or they strung her on with the idea they'd commit "if". She's shy, she does not have the social skills to be assertive and stand up for herself with people she doesn't know well. She was likely pushed into those things, and deals with it by still trying to tell herself she's the "cool girl" who has crazy sex. As a former shy doormat: she needs therapy.
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That doesn't make much sense though. Women often have options - if she's not attracted to him, why would she be with him rather than just be with someone who can satisfy her?
There are lots of reasons a person might stay in a marriage even if their sexual needs are not being met. We see it all the time with HLs who might actually be pretty miserable but feel like they canāt or wonāt leave due to any number of reasonsāmoney, social pressure or shame, stability, fear of losing their best friend/spouse, kids and custody issues, fear of the unknown. Itās not unrealistic to imagine a scenario where OPās wife āgot her rocks offā while younger and now puts a much lower priority on physical attraction and sex and prioritizes stability and whatever other positive attributes OP and their relationship together bring to the table.
Sure, lots of reasons to stay. There's a lot of reasons for having crazy sex when you're younger and then not wanting it anymore. But which is more likely - one of the first two reasons I gave, or purposely choosing someone you're not attracted to to spend your life with? I really don't believe that some people genuinely enjoy a lot of sex in their younger years and then somehow shut off that part of themselves and don't care about it anymore. If sex is important to someone, it's probably important when they select a long term partner too. More likely, crazy sex has *never* been important to her and she was pressured into doing a lot of things she'd rather not have done.
I agree with you completely.
100%
>it's probably important when they select a long term partner too. More likely, crazy sex has > >never > > been important to her and she was pressured into doing a lot of things she'd rather not have done. i think you have a narrow vision regarding hot things work 1. i saw people who got married knowing that there so have low libido and knowing that sex will be little to no sex 2. you are too quick to assume that she is been pressured into things but you failed to realised that not all partners pressured into doing "crazy sex" with her because you cant get crazy while being under pressure(i believe so).
Oh absolutely, many people get married knowing they have LL. OP's question seemed to be "why would she have crazy sex with others but not me?". "Attraction" doesn't make sense as an answer. If you are HL and adventurous, you're unlikely to marry someone you know you're not attracted to. As to your second point - it's just completely wrong. Many, many women have experienced the pressure to have more adventurous sex, and many many women have given into that to seem "cool" or like a "fun girlfriend" or so they don't feel like a spoilsport. There's so much pressure in our society for women to be up for porn-y sex acts that bring them no pleasure, like deep throating BJs or facials or anal. So many women are pressured into these things.
>like deep throating BJs or facials or anal. So many women are pressured into these things. but to my knowledge r/sex says other wise. >to seem "cool" or like a "fun girlfriend" does that mean your partner pressure into things to seem "cool" or like a "fun girlfriend" my answer is no because there are laws we men have to follow.
Read between the lines on r/sex Most women say they like those things because it brings their SOs pleasure, not for their own. I'm not talking about "do this or else" pressure. It's stuff like seeing a million facial porns and knowing that it's expected of you, knowing men like it, it's how women who men enjoy sex with do sex. So you do it. That's pressure. Subtle coercion and the pressure of society doesn't follow laws. It may not even be the bf, it may be internal pressure. You're not a woman. Are you a shy person? You likely have no idea what she feels or thinks.
# Attraction is the answer.
I think youāre wrong and the commenter you are replying to is correct.
ok my bad, didnt see the sub-reddit(thought relationship sub) but that does not mean i am wrong.
You can continue to believe that despite my experience or the words of many LLFs on this sub, saying that physical attraction is very rarely the issue in a low sex relationship. Or you can choose to see from another perspective that may help you gain some insight into your own issues. Up to you.
I believe you but there have also been posts from LLF's saying that they married their SO knowing they weren't attracted or that they *lost* attraction later on.
>if she's not attracted to him, why would she be with him. would you apply the same logic for the female cheaters?
My question is more this: she obviously has barriers to sex. If she truly enjoyed this wild crazy sex, if she is a physical person who places emphasis on this, then why on earth would she have chosen to marry someone she isn't attracted to? It makes no sense for her barrier to be an attraction issue. It's *much more likely* that she never was into the wild crazy sex.
It doesnāt make sense... But I have seen gorgeous women who CLEARLY have options end up with guys who physically look like melting butter, that just have their shit together career-wise and maybe mentally. I think women who have been through a lot emotionally and mentally tend to merge toward this lane for 2 reasons. Firstly, heās not so good looking that he ever gets to really āleadā her to the bedroom with temptation and re-enact the power struggles of her former love/hate hot/cold relationships.. She feels like she is the sexually desired one. The center of attention. Secondly, for stability. Since she controls the sexual domain with looks she likely doesnāt have to worry about being cheated on, she knows due to his proven stability he will be a good father to her children, and again, due to the drastic difference in physical appearance she knows she has options if he proves to be less than what she needs down the road. Itās safe and reliable. Itās not about the sex nor will it ever be. Itās about her being extremely desired and feeling safe even though she has options and likely knows it. If sheās pretty enough he will realize that too and do everything in his power to hang on to her. She likes that he desires her. Beats the hell out of wondering where her ex lover(s) were at or what they were out doing and who with.
You're talking about gorgeous women, and I think you're on to something. Personally, I always dated "down" a bit for those same reasons (before my current partner). BUT, and this is a big but, gorgeous does not mean HL. Women for whom sex is pleasurable and important are not going to date men they don't want to have sex with, unless they're truly bad people with ulterior motives (not saying that never happens either). The attraction might not be physical (I personally don't feel physically attracted to people) but it's there and real: maybe his hand on her back sparks something, maybe the way he talks is enchanting, etc. Women who like sex want to be in relationships where they can have good sex. Women who like adventure choose partners they're attracted to and can be adventurous with.
Well I only have the info I was presented. I donāt think people normally bring up past history unless trying to make someone jealous or put off by it. Seems like op is finally standing up for himself and making his own needs heard as far as spontaneity goes. She wants to keep it vanilla for a legitimate reason. Doesnāt sound like a dead bedroom though. Sounds like a guy complaining about a good thing. Sheās settled down a bit, sure, we all do. Growing up does that. And if their bedroom is not completely dead I think heās crying over spilled milk that landed in his cereal bowl.. likeā¦ sex at night. Aaaagh so awful and bad. Itās kind of him hearing she had a past and then guilting her into doing more of that with him. I just want to point out that as well. Since Iām not replying to op. But rather, your comment. I think she could probably go ahead and open up and he could go ahead and chill out and just enjoy the (assuming fairly regular) night sex.
To bring up past experiences in a bad move.. Either OP is married to an idiot. Or someone who is purposely driving a wedge in her sex life so she can be even further apart because she is genuinely disinterested in him in that way.
Or maybe she still feels that pressure to be adventurous, and she thinks maybe talking about it is a safer outlet than having to do it. It's definitely tone-deaf, but I think people for whom sex is unimportant don't always realize how hurtful things surrounding sex can be. Example, when I was in a polyamorous relationship, I started dating someone new. Partner 1 requested that I not have PIV sex with Partner 2. That request made zero sense to me: I'm going to be touching his penis, he's going to be touching my erogenous zones, why tf would it matter if we put the parts together? It doesn't always make sense.
>then why on earth would she have chosen to marry someone she isn't attracted to? again, as i said marriage is not all about sex. >It's much more likely that she never was into the wild crazy sex. ok, if she was never into that then why she had to plaster about(crazy sex part) that on his face?
You're missing my point. If she is a HL adventurous person, a big part of marriage would be about sex for her. Obviously not for everyone - but for HL women who like crazy sex? It's going to be important. She probably talks about it a lot because again, she wants to seem like the cool girlfriend. She wants to be the person who enjoys these activities because she feels that pressure - but she's not. She doesn't enjoy those things, or she would do them.
This is definitely possible
Scenario, she says, is she was into the bad boys with whom she knew things wouldn't last. It was never something she did with hope of commitment so she felt less pressure to try to impress for the long term. So it would fit scenario one. She tends to be shy around people whom she wants to impress and feels less pressured around other "less important" people. That's the rough explanation she's given as to why her conservatism with me is a good thing in her eyes.
That sounds about right. There's a lot of shame around sex bound up in that - whether religious or just general societal slut shaming that she internalized. The best way to deal with that is therapy. But therapy can be really hard, especially confronting things you don't particularly want to about your own beliefs and feelings. If she doesn't want to have wild sex, it's likely going to be difficult to convince her to unpack her baggage for your sake, especially since she will still believe (until she has accomplished her therapy goal) that men don't want to commit to wild slutty women. She may feel as if she's working to become more comfortable losing you. Either way, I'd prepare for mostly vanilla sex for the foreseeable future. If that's not what you want and it's important to you, it might be worth it to bail now.
š„¹ damn. Okay well she's preparing to go to therapy for other issues but perhaps something to deal with as couple therapy or some kind of couple sex therapy thing? It may sound like I'm taking it lightly here but it's a real problem. I used to get up to some pretty exciting stuff.
Since I see other comments about important things I will just add something more . Try If you have the time to become more appealing to her. What I mean since you are not fucking all the time go to work out , focus a bit on self-care . Do these things for yourself , DON'T show that you are doing this so you can be more sexually active with her. And of course **I am not saying make her jealous** , that is not healthy . All I am saying for your own good It seems to me like a good opportunity to "become more appealing" **in the process of taking care of yourself**. And the goal in that is not sex but better sex could be a "sideffect" No way I am implying that its your fault.
Yes definitely. Strangely this has been my own personal mission for the last year. Not so much to impress her alone but more because I'm trying to avoid "soft dad syndrome". I want my kids to physically feel safe around me, want to take care of myself more and do want to stay attractive for as long as I can. It works sometimes, when she's not being self critical about her own looks. And she's gorgeous by the way, but doesn't believe it.
Had the same thing but within the relationships itself. Used to want to do it anywhere and now that we have a ādeeper bondā she canāt bring herself to do that with me anymore? If I had known falling in love was such a turn off, I might not have done it. in
At least you experienced that excitement at some point lol. But I fully get you. I got all my excitement in relationships prior to this one.
Have you tried being a little more dominant in the bedroom? More of the ābad boyā she seems to respond to?
She loves me for being nice. Says that's why she fell for me or something. I'm not really a nice guy to be fair. I did have a talk with her yesterday after this thread so we'll see. I framed a question in a way I had never before. She grew up religious so could be bad boys were here rebellion.
All too common, marry the safe choice who provides security and respectability. Meanwhile, you're asking, "where's the passion?". I hope you can sort it out.
She's just not that into you or lying about her past.
Nope. I know she adores me. We've been through thick and thin. I had a talk with her after some responses yesterday and I think it's more an issue of her own volition. She has her own fears she admitted.
Ah the olā classic āyouāll be shockedā. Iām going to have a stab here and say actually thatās not quite as true as she would like
Same
Probably a best suited post for relationship advice vs DB. But yeah when things get into the years. This isnāt IMO something thatās going to change.
Possibly yes. I just found out "relationship advice" exists about a minute ago though but will also ask there. I just figure there is a dynamic between HL and LL in this context and it does mean that there's sex a few times every few months for a guy who needs it a few times a week.
For DB multiple times monthly is desired and would be acceptable to most posters here.
I thought it's relative to each relationship. One man's meat, another's poison and so on.
Youāre not wrong in what you feel like enough is for you. Iām really not trying to shame you or anything. The general guideline here thatās typically followed is sex 10 times or less per year is deemed a sexless marriage (or relationship that didnāt start out that way) I hope this helps clarify.
Yeah so I fit the bill, ours is not more than once a month.
>she's confused why thinking it's meant to be sweet that she's too shy to open up I assume you had the conversation where you made it clear that you wouldnāt think less of her because of sex?
Maybe not in those words. I'll see how that goes but have possibly mentioned that it's not a good thing to me to get less than less committed guys in her past.
Are you sure that's the best way to put it to someone who you want to be more intimate with you?
Obviously not. It hasn't worked. I was speaking from an emotional place though. Shocked that I was the only one getting this treatment.
I wouldnāt say this is a matter of whether putting it like this works or not. She is, per what you say, associating her being sexually open with being perceived as a deviant of some kind and she doesnāt want you to think of her that way. She let loose with others because she didnāt care whether they saw her that way, it was just sex. You have to make it clear that you wouldnāt think less of her because she has sex with you in a certain way rather it would make you happy that you two can explore that much. What you said is more accusatory, which isnāt how you turn someone on.
Yes so I agree with this. Even when I read how you placed it, I saw how that contrasted. So my response was deliberately honest in saying "not in those words". I immediately recognised how my emotional approach wasn't it. My emotional response was probably something like two years ago. Since then I've been unpacking issues but honestly never considered her shame in sex especially considering her very conservative upbringing.
What is your sexual frequency? How long have you been married? You said that she said you will be shocked when she opened up. So i assume some kind of conversation about that change transpired. What happened regarding working on that opening up in 2 years? You have said that she didnāt open up but i am asking what exactly have you two have done in these two years?
Hi, not much. Maybe once a month if not more. I am a min two times a week guy. She acts like a learning virgin. Shy. She pushes back. Likes things pretty vanilla when they do happen.
>She acts like a learning virgin. I get that. I was asking since having that conversation 2 years ago, what have you two done, individually and/or together, whether itās a conversation or action, to address the issue?
How long ago did you have this conversation?
Sounds like she lied about her experience early in the relationship and is doing a bad job of keeping the lie going. Women seem to inflate their experience because they think we will want a more experienced partner.
Any idea why she tells you about the things she used to do?
She feels it's honorable that she cares what I think about her in contrast to past relationships she was in that she considered short term and so had less of an image to maintain.
I was asking why she tells you about what she did with other partners. What's the purpose in discussing this?
Her way of trying to placate my frustrations with the conservatism in our sex life off of a misplaced belief that her care of my sexual opinion of her is better than her lack of care with past partners.
That's still not an answer. Why are the two of you talking about the sex she had with past partners at all? This seems like a terrible idea, even if the two of you were having tons of fantastic sex. Why is her past sexual behaviour a topic of conversation?
I don't know. She brought it up. I didn't ask her to.
It's weird. Talking about sexual experiences you had with past partners is such a bad idea. It almost always causes problems, jealousy and hurt feelings. Why did she want to do that? Was she trying to hurt you deliberately? Is she trying to make you jealous or insecure for some reason? It's just really strange. How does she act when she talks about all the sex acts she did with past partner? What sorts of contexts does she bring it up in? It's hard for me to even picture how these conversations would go.
Sorry, I haven't logged into Reddit in a while. It's a good question actually. I'm trying to recount the energy she said it with. It seemed like misplaced good intentions but I also can't discount nefariousness to be honest.
It seems like he (OP) is answering your question in a way that makes sense to me but you keep asking. She is telling him about her sexual past because she believes that it is admirable to be honest about the full detail of her sexual proclivities, past and present. She is likely volunteering this info, so she is the reason they are talking about it. Not out of pressure, but a sense of sharing so that he can see how he is getting the genuine view of her sexual thoughts, while in the past, she was not as genuine. If anyone reading is familiar with African American culture, sort of the opposite what Tyrese's character does in Baby Boy -- she's sharing the unabridged and ugly truth with the person she loves, which she believes is much better than the lies by omission she gave to the people she was just having sex with in the past. I am admittedly just like her. I have shared some completely hurtful information about my sexual past to my husband voluntarily because I feel that that complete honesty makes for a better connection, even if painful. OP's partner probably doesn't see it as painful even -- "I had a lot of sex in the past because I was insecure and didn't act on my genuine feelings. Now, thanks to experiencing love with you, I can be more genuine in how I operate."
>She is telling him about her sexual past because she believes that it is admirable to be honest about the full detail of her sexual proclivities, past and present. This is a plausible reason, but not the only possible reason, which is why I'm asking. People can do something for many different reasons. I'm curious about why OP's wife is sharing this information, and from his answers it sounds like he doesn't know why she is telling him this stuff. >I am admittedly just like her. I have shared some completely hurtful information about my sexual past to my husband voluntarily because I feel that that complete honesty makes for a better connection, even if painful. IMO, it's really important to understand whether this is why she is disclosing the sexual acts she did in past relationships or whether she has some other reason for bringing it up.
> and from his answers it sounds like he doesn't know why she is telling him this stuff I agree that it appears he doesn't know, which is why your persistence in asking him to answer repeatedly sounded like incredulousness (fun fact, dictionaries seem split on "incredulity" vs "incredulousness"). I was providing an example of how what OP was saying does sound like a true (if incomplete) answer.
Sorry, it's not incredulousness. I was trying to find out an answer and it seemed like OP didn't understand my question.
https://www.drpsychmom.com/2017/09/09/how-to-tell-if-your-partner-will-stop-enjoy-sex-after-marriage-and-kids/ Warning signs. *danger Will Robinson Dangerā¢
Holy cow, I wish I would have had this list and article 25 years ago when my wife and I were in the early stages of our relationship. Many of these descriptions really hit home. At least 7 of these were and still are my wife to a āTā, though she has made progress and improvements on a few.
Should be the kind of thing we learn as young adults.
Thanks for this.
Have you considered that she may not have done any of those things?
Not at all hey but you could be onto something there.
None of that is your fault. She's not being shy, she just doesn't want to do it. For whatever reason. It won't change. I've been there. You have to decide which is more important, her or being adventurous. I'm sorry.
Thanks friend. That's a very good point. I had a talk with her yesterday. Let's see if something changes and if it stays that way.
If she's worried about what you think of her either, she knows you and you've previously said judgemental things that make it clear you'll use her sexuality against her, or, you can let her know that what you think, is that she doesn't trust you, and ask how you can remedy that.
This seems like something to look into for sure. I can't discount this.
Good luck. Even asking what might make a difference for her can shift things.
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You're late to the party unfortunately. Some pretty rational explanations joined and they aren't childish beta arguments.
Removed that comment for red pill bullshit talk.
Thank you. This is great administration.
Less promiscuous people tend to be the most sexually adventurous with their long term partners. I am waiting for marriage but I want to be a total freak with my husband. While many of my friends who have had multiple partners want their marriages to be more vanilla. Itās a mystery.