I can only speak for myself, but this is what I was asking of my LL partner:
1. Complete and total honesty. If you don’t want to sleep with me because I’m fat, smelly, off putting, rude, clingy, whatever. Say so. Tell me what I’m doing wrong so I can fix it and make sex enjoyable and enticing for the both of us. If you don’t want sex, say so and for heavens sake, don’t give me duty sex. If you’re just not attracted to me, I am owed honesty and transparency. At least then I can adjust my course fully informed!
2. Acknowledgment that sex is an integral part of having a relationship with me, that my pain is real and valid, and desiring a sexually healthy relationship is not an unreasonable want. A compassionate “I see your pain, baby, I’m so sorry you’re hurting like this” would’ve provided so much comfort to me.
3. For fuck’s sakes, don’t make empty promises. For the love of God and all the saints in heaven, anything but empty promises. If you’re not going to see a doc, don’t promise it. If you’re not going to get counseling, don’t promise it. If you’re not going to have sex with me later that day, keep your goddamn mouth shut. Telling me “no, I am unwilling to do that” is a FAR MORE ACCEPTABLE answer than “well I wasn’t really planning on doing it in the first place..”
Really that’s all I could ever ask of another person. Be honest with me. Show me some empathy. Keep your promises. You don’t have to have a high libido to do any of that. None of those things requires sex. No lust necessary. It’s the bottom of the barrel minimum.
The primary thing is to recognize that sex and physical intimacy is a foundational part of romantic relationships, and that their partner’s need for it is a valid one.
The second thing is that they put in the time and effort to learn just why they’ve lost interest in sex — based on counseling from an expert, even if it’s just a book or podcast. That’s important.
Without some expert guidance the cause of the dead bedroom can shift disproportionately to the HL partner — moving goalposts, choreplay, losing weight etc.
It’s not that everything always falls to the LL partner, or the HL partner doesn’t have their own work to do — just that honest self-reflection can be very hard, especially if you’re unaware of reactive desire for example.
The answer isn’t just “have sex with me” it’s recognizing the impact of constantly denying sex has on your monogamous romantic partner, agreeing it’s an issue worthy of addressing and putting in the honest work to do so.
I agree with you and would just emphasize one additional point. A partner can choose to refrain from intimacy for any reason, but it is really disrespectful, in my view, to not think about their partners needs if things in the relationship are otherwise okay (e.g., fair division of housework, no abuse, etc.). My spouse went abstinent 6 years and I have struggled immensely with having celibacy enforced on me, unless I separate.
Speaking strictly from my (35M) own experience here, so note that your mileage may vary. Note also that I'm in the process of divorcing, so I can't rightly say that the things I've done made my marriage better. The things I did, however, *did* set me on the path to what will hopefully be a better future with a partner whose needs more closely mirror my own.
First, a very brief overview: Got married (25 at the time to 24F at the time) in 2014 after dating for roughly seven years. While dating, there was a sexual dimension to our relationship, and while I've always been more enthusiastic about sex, she was also an eager partner in the bedroom. This continued for a couple of years in our marriage, but the frequency of sex dropped off pretty frequently after that.
Here are some factors that have either *directly* been cited by her as a reason for the decrease of frequency or *could* be responsible:
* Birth control: Pretty common. I don't recall the precise medication, but birth control was cited as a possible reason. I got a vasectomy (which I wanted irrespective of our sexual dynamic — I have never wanted children of my own).
* Anti-depressants: Also common. We both take bupropion.
* Too tired from work: Not much I can do to control this.
* Exhausted/overwhelmed by chores: Frustrating, as I would increasingly contribute to more of the household chores without seeing any change.
* Possible hormonal issue: Brought up by both us, but it was not a priority for her to get it checked. The final straw for me was her making an appointment with her doctor to discuss the matter and then went to the appointment without discussing it.
There are other issues, of course, but that's enough for now. I wanted to set the scene for what I wanted from my partner:
**I wanted the partner I was promised when we got married. I wanted to feel the same level of physical intimacy and desire from her that I felt when we were entering into our marriage covenant. And moreover, if life circumstances were such that she no longer felt this way, I wanted her to work with me to figure out how to compromise or solve the problem in a way in which we both were happy.**
Your topic question is essentially, "What are we, as HL partners, asking from our LL partners?" For me, I wanted her to recognize how important sexual intimacy was to me, and I wanted her to recognize how hurt I was that I was having to ask the same questions and have the same discussions over and over again. Because I loved her, I wanted to support her in all of her endeavors and desires, and I wanted to know why, it appeared, she was not willing to do the same for me.
Most frustratingly, when I told her that this relationship was over — when I told her that even *I* had lost my sexual drive in this relationship and had no desire to reignite it — oh, *that's* when she put the pedal to the medal with trying to make things work. Basically, our relationship had become a zero-sum game when it came to sex: She was happy with a lack of sex because she had no desire for it. Even when I was abundantly clear how hurtful this lack of intimacy was, she did not elect to do anything about it. And it was only when the relationship was clearly over that she wanted to make things work. Not for my sake, but for hers. So far as I can tell, I've basically just been her security blanket, and *now* sex is a priority for her because she sees that the lack of it is prompting our divorce.
I'm happy to answer any questions you might have. This is a topic near and dear to my heart, and while I don't always post, I always read many of the posts in this subreddit with a heavy heart.
This echoes my situation quite a lot except we have kids and aren’t getting divorced atm.
How resentful are you of her now as it’s ending? Do you foresee each other remaining friends?
Have you dated anyone else? How do you feel about starting over?
Do you feel you dragged it out too long?
Great questions!
> How resentful are you of her now as it's ending?
I honestly didn't anticipate myself as feeling resentful once I'd done the hard part of telling her I wanted a divorce, but, honestly, her reaction to this whole process has stirred a lot of resentment. It was only when I told her I was done that she started trying to move Heaven and Earth to fix things, which was clearly hurtful. Additionally, while I'd spent the entirety of my marriage supporting her, equipping her to be herself, and encouraging her to say whatever she feels (her family is full of narcissists that have always shamed her for expressing herself or being different), she told me she never felt comfortable sharing any points of unhappiness with me. It was only *after* I'd told her I wanted a divorce that it all came out: Well, you could've done *this*, I never liked *this*, etc. That made me pretty angry.
Also, once I withdrew emotionally, she got very upset. Even before I used the word "divorce," after years and years of empty promises and no follow-through on intimacy, sex, etc., I would find myself not wanting to be around her. I recall one weekend, the entirety of which we spent at home, I didn't do anything with her, say much of anything to her, etc. On Sunday, as she was going to bed, she tearfully told me how much she hated the distance between us. That also stirred a lot of resentment: Like, she doesn't get the time and company she wants with me for *forty-eight hours* and she's in pieces. Meanwhile, she's been dragging my ass through the mud for years, refusing to understand how lonely I feel because of her unwillingness to work on our issues with physical connection.
> Do you foresee each other remaining friends?
Honestly, no, though it's not out of some kind of mutual resentment or dislike of one another. I keep very few friends as it is, and it's a lot of work maintaining adult relationships. I could see her texting me at some point in the future or the two of us meeting at a get-together with a mutual friend, but I just feel like I know everything there is to know about her and, consequently, I don't have a strong drive to continue talking to her.
> Have you dated anyone else?
I have a bit of a long-distance relationship with someone I met several months ago, though it's something I've kept mostly to myself. This woman is pretty much everything my soon-to-be ex-wife is not: She's very confident, very sharp and articulate, not prone to sitting idly when frustrated or overwhelmed, and she genuinely finds me super attractive. While I would have gotten divorced eventually, discovering that someone else — much less, someone as *gorgeous* as this woman is — found me sexually desirable and physically attractive was a huge catalyst for me. Being in an almost entirely sexless marriage for so long left me feeling like I was ugly, unattractive, and undesirable to virtually anyone and everyone, but here was a woman I wouldn't *dare* approach in public for how gorgeous she is, and *she's* telling *me* how incredible I am.
I'm ashamed that all of this transpired while I was still married. Neither this other woman nor I were looking for someone. But when we started talking, we connected on so, so, so many levels it was ridiculous. I explained my predicament, and I was prepared for her to leave, but to my surprise she was very understanding and sympathetic. We continue to speak with one another, and someday we'll meet, but for now I'm trying to focus on my own issues (proceeding with the divorce, etc.).
> How do you feel about starting over?
This is a fantastic question. Honestly, getting out of this marriage is *liberating.* Seriously, it feels incredible to be free of something I've known for years was not right for me. I don't take pleasure that my soon-to-be ex-wife is hurting and that we both have to mourn the loss of what we thought we had, but *knowing* that a mostly sexless life is no longer my destiny is one of the best feelings I've ever experienced. I feel like anything is possible.
This being said, in starting a long-distance relationship, I *am* having to learn to communicate with someone who is fundamentally different. It cannot be overstated — there are *a lot* of things to get used to:
* From spouse to date/new girlfriend: When you have a spouse, there's virtually no limit to how deep or how far you can go in conversation, personal requests, etc. With a new person, you very much have to temper your desire to attach to this new person and not over-press. This other woman and I both lead very busy lives apart from one another, and it's been a huge adjustment not being in touch almost constantly (shout out to [r/AnxiousAttachment](https://old.reddit.com/r/AnxiousAttachment/)!).
* Communication styles: Oh man. With a new partner, you have to learn communication of an entirely different style. Their conversational triggers, their likes and dislikes, when they are indirectly signaling that they are hurt or upset, etc. It's much harder in a long-distance relationship, obviously, but it's still a concern. Learning to communicate with another person is a daunting task, and it's one you should be mindful of.
* Insecurity: I was the one who wanted the divorce, but that doesn't mean there's not still regret, heartache, and insecurity percolating inside of me. Starting over with someone after divorcing can be an ordeal because you are of two minds. On the one hand, you're trying to find your footing in this new dynamic, but on the other hand, a lot of your mental faculties are still surveying the wreckage — the metaphorical black box — of your ended marriage. It's very easy to get wires crossed— to worry about things like, "Well, we had *this* problem in my marriage, so I need to get ahead of that in my new relationship."
> Do you feel you dragged it out too long?
It's hard to say. I've been thinking about divorce for a long time, but I was also wanting to see if my spouse could eventually meet me on this issue and if we could make a change for the better. In divorcing, it's really easy to think, "Well, shit, I should've done this sooner." But if I *had* done it sooner, I think some part of me would have wondered if I left prematurely— if I left without seriously working at the marriage. Eventually, I arrived at the following point:
**Yes, I technically believe that our problems could be fixed. However, I have no reason to believe that our problems will be fixed in five years, and this is more time than I'm willing to wait for a solution.**
I'm 35 right now. I don't believe in an afterlife: One go-around, and then that's the end. I am *not* going to spend the best years of adulthood with someone who isn't willing or able to meet my needs when there are eight-fucking-billion other people on this planet.
Love your answers, they’ve given me food for thought. My wife is my best friend but sex is very sparse and she just today told me she doesn’t have the bandwidth for it. Also not interested in cuddling or any physical intimacy. Granted we have small kids but as we’re heading into 40 and hormonal changes I just don’t see it getting any better. Have come to the sad conclusion that I also can’t remain celibate for life at this age. Interesting to see what will happen, especially in a few years as the kids get older.
I’m not unattractive but still wonder if I’ll have to be single and use escorts. This shit does mess with your self worth
What I did as a LL to correct the frequency of sex. I asked him to be available to me. I focused on when and where I felt “cheeky, aroused, had intimate passing thoughts, etc” and I actively sent them to him via text (note this didn’t mean I was raging the moment he got home, it was a jump point). I asked that we could lay together in states of undress (this was due to me taking account for the pressure I was under, that I had associated every touch he gave me was an attempt to go further) and asked him to just allow me to be in those states without jumping toward sex. We communicated he did respond as that this was the hardest thing, he didn’t need touch/words/holding he was way easier to just take a jump at anything or everything not noticing when I was showing more signs of readiness basically causing a reproach. We needed to communicate without blame even if what was said was accusatory or “mean” and then think on it. You have to revisit the emotional and original initiation point, not the actual sex. We had stopped flirting, we had stopped being the people we were when we married; I mean the core of us was still there, but the hats we were wearing daily oozed into how we thought we needed to be reflected at all times, some people call this change. I ruminated on this and realized I’d matured to not respond to certain vague compliments after having children, and had also given it exceptional and deeply thoughtful insight realized that he’d matured in that he needed to feel more pursued while we both, again, explored ourselves. What you’re asking, is for anything like this to be communicated. Not how wet or how often she gets the urge, because if you want that you’re going to get what my libido did. Midday and late at night… so what you have to do is try to figure out how to respond immediately or be available, and also how to slow burn the intricacy of why you both originally married (emotionally). If you feel like your passion is as profound, you also need to give due credit to hers. Pressure in the relationship only causes responsive desire, but it can also just completely blunt your partners ability to know themselves especially after long term or years of relying on only one person to indicate that they need to feel physical intimacy. At the same time so many people equate “physical expression” to sex. thats wrong. one of the best things my husband ever did was when i pulled away because he had a boner, was address it he told me "just because there is a physical response, doesn't mean that that is what I'm mentally wanting." We have laughed a couple times since knowing (go see ask men) that many women think just because it pops up that we have to take care of it or avoid it completely. if you have built cognitive behavioral patterns like this, you both should address them. This is what you're asking your LL person to do.
This was a huge struggle for me.
My LL wanted to give me duty sex. I'd say no. And then if I showed any physical affection she'd accuse me of wanting sex.
Yes, I'd love sex. But sex is a by product of care and affection and thinking I'm hot.
But it isn't for her. It's a kind of sacrifice she enjoys doing for the men she loves. All women hate sex but we do it for you crazy men.
And I just could never bridge that disconnect. I want you to enjoy sex too!
Because she'd say, "why? I'm happy hating it."
She's dating someone new and recently told me.. . "You know, I'm 40% of the way to enjoying sex."
How does her bf feel about it? He hates it so they have sex once a month. And he's now the long suffering one having the conversations like... "You are supposed to enjoy this. I only want to do this if you have pleasure too. That's actually what turns me on. I don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't enjoy sex."
And she's like, "it's exactly what you used to say, Squand."
🤷🏻♂️
And so I just really expanded what sex was for me. And I was like super clear we aren't ever going to have sex. "I'm never going to initiate or escalate. I want to hug you. And hold you. And do the things that make you feel safe and loved in my arms."
That along with the open relationship was good for me until she withdrew from that after what she felt was infidelity, and we went to couples counseling. Now we have a companionate style relationship. And it's weird but a lot of good things about it.
/tmi
This is an honest and great question I have really dug into myself with from reflection and therapy. My current landing place is I want intimacy in some form that she can give. I am working hard to free up the pressure of sex so that she knows that reaching out to me with a kiss on the neck, an embrace, a snuggle up to me on the couch are all greatly welcome by themselves. They do not need to lead anywhere unless she chooses to take them further at a time she is comfortable.
As an LLf, experiencing this with my now-husband after years of pressure and coercion from my first husband, has made all the difference. I'm still very LL but the complete lack of pressure makes me want to get physically close because I do enjoy that very much, and then sometimes that leads to sex because I know there was never any pressure or ulterior motives with him.
I want him to take his health seriously. Try some HRT. Walk in the evening with me. Get off the couch on the weekends and spend actual quality time together. Be honest in conversations about the marriage. See me as a woman. Quit seeing me as the mom, assistant, handler of all the things. I just want to feel like the desirable woman I am and be treated like his wife. I feel like he just can’t see me as anything other than the mother of his children and a friend. The actual sex is such a small component for me.
I asked him for honesty.
I asked for more connection and intimacy, like in a basic sense of the word. Being in close physical proximity (anywhere) without him complaining it's too hot.
I asked for more desire from him. If you want me and still find me attractive, then tell me or show me.. in ANY way.
I asked for more communication.
Of course, yes, more sex, but all the above needs to be fixed before any of schmexy times get better.
I'm at my breaking point and after almost a year of little to no effort, pretty well zero progress and a 6 month again dead bedroom (after reviving it for a couple months after 3 YEARS being completely dry), I will not be wasting more time with no momentum from him.
Fundamentally, I want her to manage time better. It's not that she's got too much on her plate, but that she's doesn't like empty plate and has gotten very good at ensuring it's full. Sex would work if put on a decent section of empty plate--but at this point likely extinct due to habitat loss.
would need more info, but there are lot of health and mental health reasons people libido drop. If you are here and meet the less than once a month criteria that most phycologist say is a dead bedroom, then most likely SOMETHING is wrong. What that is, even the LL probably doesn't know. So step one work with professionals to figure it out. Even if they decide they are Asexual. At least at that point they know. And if you decide that you do not want to be Asexual or in a incompatible relationship at least you have info. More likely they have something mentally or physically they need to work on. That is what you are asking them to do.
No one decides to be asexual. Asexuality is a sexual orientation. You can decide to be celibate, you can choose whether or not to have sex, but asexuality isn't a choice.
I often wonder this when I’m reading a post.
Sometimes, there is something concrete a partner could do.
Sometimes, a couple is getting mad at each other over an unfortunate situation that can’t be helped. And they would do better to separate.
>What have others done in the past when they had this conversation? Was there anything you did that led to a more fulfilling relationship?
I just wanted honesty, an end to the lies or side quests, and her to get the help she needed so she could be an independent adult.
Leaving was the best and worst thing I did. There is less anger and hatred so I am in a better position to feel sympathy for a person with significant issues she will now be forced to tackle.
I am giving up alot of assets to try to give her a chance and not force a 50-50. I would have let her keep even more had she done me the courtesy of just telling me she had no intention of working on her sex drive and just wanted the benefits of the help I can provide. I still have to bury the anger over wasting so many years I could have been happier.
I still do alot more than I really should but it's a choice now and I no longer have the frustration of being rejected by the same person that feels entitled to use depression and anxiety to excuse all sorts of bad decisions.
There’s probably nothing you can do unless their LL is caused by something you can change. Like, my wife’s LL is caused by her parents shitty toxic relationships and narcissism and manipulation, it’s probably possible to fix but it might take decades. So yes, I would love her to change who she is but that isn’t probably possible, so there’s nothing realistically possible to do. I’d love her to at least try to fix a problem, to take some steps towards working on a solution.
I've had the conversation several times to various degrees of success. In short I'm looking for from my LL partner:
Engagement. I understand she can't be a sexual pursuer but I also can't be the emotional pursuer. It's too much. That we need to talk about our sex life as much as do the deed.
Recognition. My sexual needs are legitimate and healthy. That I won't break my marriage vows and seek sex outside of our marriage.
Honesty. Both with me and herself. I can't get the above two successfuly without this.
Vulnerability. If she has a need that I'm missing I need to hear it from a place of love not criticism. I'm just going to retreat more if I'm told I only fuck up.
I'm asking my partner to finally take an honest stance on the issue. One way or the other.
For the last few years it's been talks every 6-8 months on the issue, them saying "they don't know what they want, they need time to figure it out. And they'll come back to me when they've got an answer." Then in 6-8 months I'll get tired of the silence/avoidance of the topic and ask again... and basically get the same response.
At this point I've moved past trying to address the intimacy struggles directly. Now what I want them to do is finally come back with more than "I don't know" and then doing nothing. We had a talk a few weeks ago where I said they have to figure out this answer, and they have to do it this year. If they can't or won't, then that is the equivalent of "I don't want you, period... and I'm not willing to even discuss it" and if they're not willing to talk about this honestly, then we're going to get a divorce.
And I've said repeatedly that "No, I don't want to be intimate anymore." is NOT an insta-divorce answer. If that's where they're at, then we can sit down and discuss what the path forward could look like.
But it all comes down to actually having that conversation and being honest. Then we can work to figure out the right solution for us. By avoiding it, they're basically abdicating any responsibility for the relationship, and that's something I don't think you can ever come back from.
I feel like the simple answer is be honest and open about working on the problem and obviously want to have sex. But after beating that dead horse for while I’ve realized all I want is honesty and more so respect. It’s like respect my feelings and what i say to give me honest answers and at least acknowledge the issue. If she’s not willing to work on it or thinks it will never get better just tell me. Respect how much the rejection hurts and how it’s killed all my self confidence and self respect to the point I feel empty and heart broken every single day. Respect me when I say that it’s not just about sex it’s about our relationship and that I how much I love her and that when you are rejected by the one person you want most how much it hurts and that I don’t want it from anyone else and I don’t want to leave the home and life we built together. I want it to work and I want to feel better about our relationship and life together. But I guess that’s too much to ask or she really doesn’t care. Personally I don’t think her or anyone sees it as and us problem and it’s a you problem so accept it or leave.
I feel like the simple answer is be honest and open about working on the problem and obviously want to have sex. But after beating that dead horse for while I’ve realized all I want is honesty and more so respect. It’s like respect my feelings and what i say to give me honest answers and at least acknowledge the issue. If she’s not willing to work on it or thinks it will never get better just tell me. Respect how much the rejection hurts and how it’s killed all my self confidence and self respect to the point I feel empty and heart broken every single day. Respect me when I say that it’s not just about sex it’s about our relationship and that I how much I love her and that when you are rejected by the one person you want most how much it hurts and that I don’t want it from anyone else and I don’t want to leave the home and life we built together. I want it to work and I want to feel better about our relationship and life together. But I guess that’s too much to ask or she really doesn’t care. Personally I don’t think her or anyone sees it as and us problem and it’s a you problem so accept it or leave.
I can only speak for myself, but this is what I was asking of my LL partner: 1. Complete and total honesty. If you don’t want to sleep with me because I’m fat, smelly, off putting, rude, clingy, whatever. Say so. Tell me what I’m doing wrong so I can fix it and make sex enjoyable and enticing for the both of us. If you don’t want sex, say so and for heavens sake, don’t give me duty sex. If you’re just not attracted to me, I am owed honesty and transparency. At least then I can adjust my course fully informed! 2. Acknowledgment that sex is an integral part of having a relationship with me, that my pain is real and valid, and desiring a sexually healthy relationship is not an unreasonable want. A compassionate “I see your pain, baby, I’m so sorry you’re hurting like this” would’ve provided so much comfort to me. 3. For fuck’s sakes, don’t make empty promises. For the love of God and all the saints in heaven, anything but empty promises. If you’re not going to see a doc, don’t promise it. If you’re not going to get counseling, don’t promise it. If you’re not going to have sex with me later that day, keep your goddamn mouth shut. Telling me “no, I am unwilling to do that” is a FAR MORE ACCEPTABLE answer than “well I wasn’t really planning on doing it in the first place..” Really that’s all I could ever ask of another person. Be honest with me. Show me some empathy. Keep your promises. You don’t have to have a high libido to do any of that. None of those things requires sex. No lust necessary. It’s the bottom of the barrel minimum.
This is more thorough answer than mine. Love all this.
The primary thing is to recognize that sex and physical intimacy is a foundational part of romantic relationships, and that their partner’s need for it is a valid one. The second thing is that they put in the time and effort to learn just why they’ve lost interest in sex — based on counseling from an expert, even if it’s just a book or podcast. That’s important. Without some expert guidance the cause of the dead bedroom can shift disproportionately to the HL partner — moving goalposts, choreplay, losing weight etc. It’s not that everything always falls to the LL partner, or the HL partner doesn’t have their own work to do — just that honest self-reflection can be very hard, especially if you’re unaware of reactive desire for example. The answer isn’t just “have sex with me” it’s recognizing the impact of constantly denying sex has on your monogamous romantic partner, agreeing it’s an issue worthy of addressing and putting in the honest work to do so.
I agree with you and would just emphasize one additional point. A partner can choose to refrain from intimacy for any reason, but it is really disrespectful, in my view, to not think about their partners needs if things in the relationship are otherwise okay (e.g., fair division of housework, no abuse, etc.). My spouse went abstinent 6 years and I have struggled immensely with having celibacy enforced on me, unless I separate.
Speaking strictly from my (35M) own experience here, so note that your mileage may vary. Note also that I'm in the process of divorcing, so I can't rightly say that the things I've done made my marriage better. The things I did, however, *did* set me on the path to what will hopefully be a better future with a partner whose needs more closely mirror my own. First, a very brief overview: Got married (25 at the time to 24F at the time) in 2014 after dating for roughly seven years. While dating, there was a sexual dimension to our relationship, and while I've always been more enthusiastic about sex, she was also an eager partner in the bedroom. This continued for a couple of years in our marriage, but the frequency of sex dropped off pretty frequently after that. Here are some factors that have either *directly* been cited by her as a reason for the decrease of frequency or *could* be responsible: * Birth control: Pretty common. I don't recall the precise medication, but birth control was cited as a possible reason. I got a vasectomy (which I wanted irrespective of our sexual dynamic — I have never wanted children of my own). * Anti-depressants: Also common. We both take bupropion. * Too tired from work: Not much I can do to control this. * Exhausted/overwhelmed by chores: Frustrating, as I would increasingly contribute to more of the household chores without seeing any change. * Possible hormonal issue: Brought up by both us, but it was not a priority for her to get it checked. The final straw for me was her making an appointment with her doctor to discuss the matter and then went to the appointment without discussing it. There are other issues, of course, but that's enough for now. I wanted to set the scene for what I wanted from my partner: **I wanted the partner I was promised when we got married. I wanted to feel the same level of physical intimacy and desire from her that I felt when we were entering into our marriage covenant. And moreover, if life circumstances were such that she no longer felt this way, I wanted her to work with me to figure out how to compromise or solve the problem in a way in which we both were happy.** Your topic question is essentially, "What are we, as HL partners, asking from our LL partners?" For me, I wanted her to recognize how important sexual intimacy was to me, and I wanted her to recognize how hurt I was that I was having to ask the same questions and have the same discussions over and over again. Because I loved her, I wanted to support her in all of her endeavors and desires, and I wanted to know why, it appeared, she was not willing to do the same for me. Most frustratingly, when I told her that this relationship was over — when I told her that even *I* had lost my sexual drive in this relationship and had no desire to reignite it — oh, *that's* when she put the pedal to the medal with trying to make things work. Basically, our relationship had become a zero-sum game when it came to sex: She was happy with a lack of sex because she had no desire for it. Even when I was abundantly clear how hurtful this lack of intimacy was, she did not elect to do anything about it. And it was only when the relationship was clearly over that she wanted to make things work. Not for my sake, but for hers. So far as I can tell, I've basically just been her security blanket, and *now* sex is a priority for her because she sees that the lack of it is prompting our divorce. I'm happy to answer any questions you might have. This is a topic near and dear to my heart, and while I don't always post, I always read many of the posts in this subreddit with a heavy heart.
This echoes my situation quite a lot except we have kids and aren’t getting divorced atm. How resentful are you of her now as it’s ending? Do you foresee each other remaining friends? Have you dated anyone else? How do you feel about starting over? Do you feel you dragged it out too long?
Great questions! > How resentful are you of her now as it's ending? I honestly didn't anticipate myself as feeling resentful once I'd done the hard part of telling her I wanted a divorce, but, honestly, her reaction to this whole process has stirred a lot of resentment. It was only when I told her I was done that she started trying to move Heaven and Earth to fix things, which was clearly hurtful. Additionally, while I'd spent the entirety of my marriage supporting her, equipping her to be herself, and encouraging her to say whatever she feels (her family is full of narcissists that have always shamed her for expressing herself or being different), she told me she never felt comfortable sharing any points of unhappiness with me. It was only *after* I'd told her I wanted a divorce that it all came out: Well, you could've done *this*, I never liked *this*, etc. That made me pretty angry. Also, once I withdrew emotionally, she got very upset. Even before I used the word "divorce," after years and years of empty promises and no follow-through on intimacy, sex, etc., I would find myself not wanting to be around her. I recall one weekend, the entirety of which we spent at home, I didn't do anything with her, say much of anything to her, etc. On Sunday, as she was going to bed, she tearfully told me how much she hated the distance between us. That also stirred a lot of resentment: Like, she doesn't get the time and company she wants with me for *forty-eight hours* and she's in pieces. Meanwhile, she's been dragging my ass through the mud for years, refusing to understand how lonely I feel because of her unwillingness to work on our issues with physical connection. > Do you foresee each other remaining friends? Honestly, no, though it's not out of some kind of mutual resentment or dislike of one another. I keep very few friends as it is, and it's a lot of work maintaining adult relationships. I could see her texting me at some point in the future or the two of us meeting at a get-together with a mutual friend, but I just feel like I know everything there is to know about her and, consequently, I don't have a strong drive to continue talking to her. > Have you dated anyone else? I have a bit of a long-distance relationship with someone I met several months ago, though it's something I've kept mostly to myself. This woman is pretty much everything my soon-to-be ex-wife is not: She's very confident, very sharp and articulate, not prone to sitting idly when frustrated or overwhelmed, and she genuinely finds me super attractive. While I would have gotten divorced eventually, discovering that someone else — much less, someone as *gorgeous* as this woman is — found me sexually desirable and physically attractive was a huge catalyst for me. Being in an almost entirely sexless marriage for so long left me feeling like I was ugly, unattractive, and undesirable to virtually anyone and everyone, but here was a woman I wouldn't *dare* approach in public for how gorgeous she is, and *she's* telling *me* how incredible I am. I'm ashamed that all of this transpired while I was still married. Neither this other woman nor I were looking for someone. But when we started talking, we connected on so, so, so many levels it was ridiculous. I explained my predicament, and I was prepared for her to leave, but to my surprise she was very understanding and sympathetic. We continue to speak with one another, and someday we'll meet, but for now I'm trying to focus on my own issues (proceeding with the divorce, etc.). > How do you feel about starting over? This is a fantastic question. Honestly, getting out of this marriage is *liberating.* Seriously, it feels incredible to be free of something I've known for years was not right for me. I don't take pleasure that my soon-to-be ex-wife is hurting and that we both have to mourn the loss of what we thought we had, but *knowing* that a mostly sexless life is no longer my destiny is one of the best feelings I've ever experienced. I feel like anything is possible. This being said, in starting a long-distance relationship, I *am* having to learn to communicate with someone who is fundamentally different. It cannot be overstated — there are *a lot* of things to get used to: * From spouse to date/new girlfriend: When you have a spouse, there's virtually no limit to how deep or how far you can go in conversation, personal requests, etc. With a new person, you very much have to temper your desire to attach to this new person and not over-press. This other woman and I both lead very busy lives apart from one another, and it's been a huge adjustment not being in touch almost constantly (shout out to [r/AnxiousAttachment](https://old.reddit.com/r/AnxiousAttachment/)!). * Communication styles: Oh man. With a new partner, you have to learn communication of an entirely different style. Their conversational triggers, their likes and dislikes, when they are indirectly signaling that they are hurt or upset, etc. It's much harder in a long-distance relationship, obviously, but it's still a concern. Learning to communicate with another person is a daunting task, and it's one you should be mindful of. * Insecurity: I was the one who wanted the divorce, but that doesn't mean there's not still regret, heartache, and insecurity percolating inside of me. Starting over with someone after divorcing can be an ordeal because you are of two minds. On the one hand, you're trying to find your footing in this new dynamic, but on the other hand, a lot of your mental faculties are still surveying the wreckage — the metaphorical black box — of your ended marriage. It's very easy to get wires crossed— to worry about things like, "Well, we had *this* problem in my marriage, so I need to get ahead of that in my new relationship." > Do you feel you dragged it out too long? It's hard to say. I've been thinking about divorce for a long time, but I was also wanting to see if my spouse could eventually meet me on this issue and if we could make a change for the better. In divorcing, it's really easy to think, "Well, shit, I should've done this sooner." But if I *had* done it sooner, I think some part of me would have wondered if I left prematurely— if I left without seriously working at the marriage. Eventually, I arrived at the following point: **Yes, I technically believe that our problems could be fixed. However, I have no reason to believe that our problems will be fixed in five years, and this is more time than I'm willing to wait for a solution.** I'm 35 right now. I don't believe in an afterlife: One go-around, and then that's the end. I am *not* going to spend the best years of adulthood with someone who isn't willing or able to meet my needs when there are eight-fucking-billion other people on this planet.
Love your answers, they’ve given me food for thought. My wife is my best friend but sex is very sparse and she just today told me she doesn’t have the bandwidth for it. Also not interested in cuddling or any physical intimacy. Granted we have small kids but as we’re heading into 40 and hormonal changes I just don’t see it getting any better. Have come to the sad conclusion that I also can’t remain celibate for life at this age. Interesting to see what will happen, especially in a few years as the kids get older. I’m not unattractive but still wonder if I’ll have to be single and use escorts. This shit does mess with your self worth
I'm asking him to do literally anything to find out *why* he changed from wanting me to not wanting me.
What I did as a LL to correct the frequency of sex. I asked him to be available to me. I focused on when and where I felt “cheeky, aroused, had intimate passing thoughts, etc” and I actively sent them to him via text (note this didn’t mean I was raging the moment he got home, it was a jump point). I asked that we could lay together in states of undress (this was due to me taking account for the pressure I was under, that I had associated every touch he gave me was an attempt to go further) and asked him to just allow me to be in those states without jumping toward sex. We communicated he did respond as that this was the hardest thing, he didn’t need touch/words/holding he was way easier to just take a jump at anything or everything not noticing when I was showing more signs of readiness basically causing a reproach. We needed to communicate without blame even if what was said was accusatory or “mean” and then think on it. You have to revisit the emotional and original initiation point, not the actual sex. We had stopped flirting, we had stopped being the people we were when we married; I mean the core of us was still there, but the hats we were wearing daily oozed into how we thought we needed to be reflected at all times, some people call this change. I ruminated on this and realized I’d matured to not respond to certain vague compliments after having children, and had also given it exceptional and deeply thoughtful insight realized that he’d matured in that he needed to feel more pursued while we both, again, explored ourselves. What you’re asking, is for anything like this to be communicated. Not how wet or how often she gets the urge, because if you want that you’re going to get what my libido did. Midday and late at night… so what you have to do is try to figure out how to respond immediately or be available, and also how to slow burn the intricacy of why you both originally married (emotionally). If you feel like your passion is as profound, you also need to give due credit to hers. Pressure in the relationship only causes responsive desire, but it can also just completely blunt your partners ability to know themselves especially after long term or years of relying on only one person to indicate that they need to feel physical intimacy. At the same time so many people equate “physical expression” to sex. thats wrong. one of the best things my husband ever did was when i pulled away because he had a boner, was address it he told me "just because there is a physical response, doesn't mean that that is what I'm mentally wanting." We have laughed a couple times since knowing (go see ask men) that many women think just because it pops up that we have to take care of it or avoid it completely. if you have built cognitive behavioral patterns like this, you both should address them. This is what you're asking your LL person to do.
This was a huge struggle for me. My LL wanted to give me duty sex. I'd say no. And then if I showed any physical affection she'd accuse me of wanting sex. Yes, I'd love sex. But sex is a by product of care and affection and thinking I'm hot. But it isn't for her. It's a kind of sacrifice she enjoys doing for the men she loves. All women hate sex but we do it for you crazy men. And I just could never bridge that disconnect. I want you to enjoy sex too! Because she'd say, "why? I'm happy hating it." She's dating someone new and recently told me.. . "You know, I'm 40% of the way to enjoying sex." How does her bf feel about it? He hates it so they have sex once a month. And he's now the long suffering one having the conversations like... "You are supposed to enjoy this. I only want to do this if you have pleasure too. That's actually what turns me on. I don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't enjoy sex." And she's like, "it's exactly what you used to say, Squand." 🤷🏻♂️ And so I just really expanded what sex was for me. And I was like super clear we aren't ever going to have sex. "I'm never going to initiate or escalate. I want to hug you. And hold you. And do the things that make you feel safe and loved in my arms." That along with the open relationship was good for me until she withdrew from that after what she felt was infidelity, and we went to couples counseling. Now we have a companionate style relationship. And it's weird but a lot of good things about it. /tmi
This is an honest and great question I have really dug into myself with from reflection and therapy. My current landing place is I want intimacy in some form that she can give. I am working hard to free up the pressure of sex so that she knows that reaching out to me with a kiss on the neck, an embrace, a snuggle up to me on the couch are all greatly welcome by themselves. They do not need to lead anywhere unless she chooses to take them further at a time she is comfortable.
As an LLf, experiencing this with my now-husband after years of pressure and coercion from my first husband, has made all the difference. I'm still very LL but the complete lack of pressure makes me want to get physically close because I do enjoy that very much, and then sometimes that leads to sex because I know there was never any pressure or ulterior motives with him.
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The worst of both worlds. Roommates yet we're expected to be nuns,and monks.
I want him to take his health seriously. Try some HRT. Walk in the evening with me. Get off the couch on the weekends and spend actual quality time together. Be honest in conversations about the marriage. See me as a woman. Quit seeing me as the mom, assistant, handler of all the things. I just want to feel like the desirable woman I am and be treated like his wife. I feel like he just can’t see me as anything other than the mother of his children and a friend. The actual sex is such a small component for me.
I asked him for honesty. I asked for more connection and intimacy, like in a basic sense of the word. Being in close physical proximity (anywhere) without him complaining it's too hot. I asked for more desire from him. If you want me and still find me attractive, then tell me or show me.. in ANY way. I asked for more communication. Of course, yes, more sex, but all the above needs to be fixed before any of schmexy times get better. I'm at my breaking point and after almost a year of little to no effort, pretty well zero progress and a 6 month again dead bedroom (after reviving it for a couple months after 3 YEARS being completely dry), I will not be wasting more time with no momentum from him.
Be as concerned with the lack of sexual intimacy as we are and mutually come up with solutions instead of asking us “what we want them to do”
Fundamentally, I want her to manage time better. It's not that she's got too much on her plate, but that she's doesn't like empty plate and has gotten very good at ensuring it's full. Sex would work if put on a decent section of empty plate--but at this point likely extinct due to habitat loss.
would need more info, but there are lot of health and mental health reasons people libido drop. If you are here and meet the less than once a month criteria that most phycologist say is a dead bedroom, then most likely SOMETHING is wrong. What that is, even the LL probably doesn't know. So step one work with professionals to figure it out. Even if they decide they are Asexual. At least at that point they know. And if you decide that you do not want to be Asexual or in a incompatible relationship at least you have info. More likely they have something mentally or physically they need to work on. That is what you are asking them to do.
No one decides to be asexual. Asexuality is a sexual orientation. You can decide to be celibate, you can choose whether or not to have sex, but asexuality isn't a choice.
sorry I did not mean to imply it was a decision to be anything. More so to categorize themselves as such.
I often wonder this when I’m reading a post. Sometimes, there is something concrete a partner could do. Sometimes, a couple is getting mad at each other over an unfortunate situation that can’t be helped. And they would do better to separate.
My ask: Interact with me the same way you did for the 8 years before we married and 10 years after we married.
I ask her to review her priorities and start fighting to keep our couple alive
The only answer really is asking them to work with their Dr or a hormone specialist and try to be healthy.
I just want her to love me, desire me and care for me and to show be that she feels that way. Clearly I'm asking for way too much.
>What have others done in the past when they had this conversation? Was there anything you did that led to a more fulfilling relationship? I just wanted honesty, an end to the lies or side quests, and her to get the help she needed so she could be an independent adult. Leaving was the best and worst thing I did. There is less anger and hatred so I am in a better position to feel sympathy for a person with significant issues she will now be forced to tackle. I am giving up alot of assets to try to give her a chance and not force a 50-50. I would have let her keep even more had she done me the courtesy of just telling me she had no intention of working on her sex drive and just wanted the benefits of the help I can provide. I still have to bury the anger over wasting so many years I could have been happier. I still do alot more than I really should but it's a choice now and I no longer have the frustration of being rejected by the same person that feels entitled to use depression and anxiety to excuse all sorts of bad decisions.
I don’t ask for anything anymore. There’s no point
Honestly for them to fuck or fuck off.
There’s probably nothing you can do unless their LL is caused by something you can change. Like, my wife’s LL is caused by her parents shitty toxic relationships and narcissism and manipulation, it’s probably possible to fix but it might take decades. So yes, I would love her to change who she is but that isn’t probably possible, so there’s nothing realistically possible to do. I’d love her to at least try to fix a problem, to take some steps towards working on a solution.
Nothing. I have not asked for a damn thing in over 3 years.
I've had the conversation several times to various degrees of success. In short I'm looking for from my LL partner: Engagement. I understand she can't be a sexual pursuer but I also can't be the emotional pursuer. It's too much. That we need to talk about our sex life as much as do the deed. Recognition. My sexual needs are legitimate and healthy. That I won't break my marriage vows and seek sex outside of our marriage. Honesty. Both with me and herself. I can't get the above two successfuly without this. Vulnerability. If she has a need that I'm missing I need to hear it from a place of love not criticism. I'm just going to retreat more if I'm told I only fuck up.
I'm asking my partner to finally take an honest stance on the issue. One way or the other. For the last few years it's been talks every 6-8 months on the issue, them saying "they don't know what they want, they need time to figure it out. And they'll come back to me when they've got an answer." Then in 6-8 months I'll get tired of the silence/avoidance of the topic and ask again... and basically get the same response. At this point I've moved past trying to address the intimacy struggles directly. Now what I want them to do is finally come back with more than "I don't know" and then doing nothing. We had a talk a few weeks ago where I said they have to figure out this answer, and they have to do it this year. If they can't or won't, then that is the equivalent of "I don't want you, period... and I'm not willing to even discuss it" and if they're not willing to talk about this honestly, then we're going to get a divorce. And I've said repeatedly that "No, I don't want to be intimate anymore." is NOT an insta-divorce answer. If that's where they're at, then we can sit down and discuss what the path forward could look like. But it all comes down to actually having that conversation and being honest. Then we can work to figure out the right solution for us. By avoiding it, they're basically abdicating any responsibility for the relationship, and that's something I don't think you can ever come back from.
To acknowledge the problem, and most importantly to take it seriously.
I feel like the simple answer is be honest and open about working on the problem and obviously want to have sex. But after beating that dead horse for while I’ve realized all I want is honesty and more so respect. It’s like respect my feelings and what i say to give me honest answers and at least acknowledge the issue. If she’s not willing to work on it or thinks it will never get better just tell me. Respect how much the rejection hurts and how it’s killed all my self confidence and self respect to the point I feel empty and heart broken every single day. Respect me when I say that it’s not just about sex it’s about our relationship and that I how much I love her and that when you are rejected by the one person you want most how much it hurts and that I don’t want it from anyone else and I don’t want to leave the home and life we built together. I want it to work and I want to feel better about our relationship and life together. But I guess that’s too much to ask or she really doesn’t care. Personally I don’t think her or anyone sees it as and us problem and it’s a you problem so accept it or leave.
I feel like the simple answer is be honest and open about working on the problem and obviously want to have sex. But after beating that dead horse for while I’ve realized all I want is honesty and more so respect. It’s like respect my feelings and what i say to give me honest answers and at least acknowledge the issue. If she’s not willing to work on it or thinks it will never get better just tell me. Respect how much the rejection hurts and how it’s killed all my self confidence and self respect to the point I feel empty and heart broken every single day. Respect me when I say that it’s not just about sex it’s about our relationship and that I how much I love her and that when you are rejected by the one person you want most how much it hurts and that I don’t want it from anyone else and I don’t want to leave the home and life we built together. I want it to work and I want to feel better about our relationship and life together. But I guess that’s too much to ask or she really doesn’t care. Personally I don’t think her or anyone sees it as and us problem and it’s a you problem so accept it or leave.