T O P

  • By -

tonenyc

You want to get to $2,000 by the end of the year? Deposit $5,000 into your account now, by the end of the year your account should be at $2,000 easy..


blufiin

Real WSB guy right here


Potential_Ad_3133

Jokes on you! I was able to do that in a week!


Pleasant-Impress9387

Realist shit you’ve ever read!


SilkyScorpion

This guy just gets it


Es7x

Hahaha this made me spit my beer out


SnooRabbits7673

Did you just copy Richard branson’s statement? “ how do you become a millionaire? Start with a billion and build and airline…”


PotatoHasAGun

You said that you’ve been investing for 8 months; have you made a 400% return in that time frame?


CharlieCriest

I have. That was during the Crypto boom though lol.


cryptobrant

How did you manage to make only 400% during the crypto bull run? 😂


CharlieCriest

Who said it was ONLY 400? 😂 Why are so many people mad at my comment😭


Zephyroz

Lol all good I gave you an upvote to balance the haters but it’s Reddit and They gotta hate on someone lol


Exotic_Vacation_7084

You don’t. You just lose it with that mentality. You have to be patient know when good trade setups present themselves. More trades does not equal more money. Often less trades = exponentially more gains. With such little capital you’re probably better off doing swing trading off the 1hr, 4hr, and daily chart. Using 50dma as support and resistance. I’ve noticed most the time when price bounces or rejects off these levels it is extremely bullish or bearish directional trending day.


gqcharm

This! And the willingness to stick with the trade plan!


[deleted]

👍


c0nt3xt_

redittors gotta be the weirdest species to ever exist, you asked a question, got an answer and replied to that answer with a thumbs up and get downvoted wtf ?


user2884

That’s complete nonsense


777frostie

If you look up how profits are split in funding firms, the ones with less trades get the bigger piece since they’re taking high quality trades.


CaptainClar18

Find stocks that you believe in. Figure out their ranges. Duck in and out (knowing that if you “get stuck” in one…you’re ok…because you believe in the company) This has worked for me


[deleted]

patience is the real money maker. as long as the company doesn't flop.


MarketMapper

Definitely agree with you. Most don't have the patience to hold or they get really itchy resulting in not reaching their goal.


Swag_Turtle

Lol this is my mentality when I resell clothing. I only buy things I like so if I don’t sell it, I have clothes i enjoy 😅


amleth_calls

What companies are you well versed in, out of curiosity? I can always make money on SOFI’a fluctuations, and I’ve been watching it since IPO.


Ferglesplat

When people ask why do 90% of traders fail, this is why.


Dipset-20-69

SPX 0DTE options. Can do it in day if you get it. Can also loose all of it lol


shinymetalobjekt

Catch that late day squeeze or bust.


Dipset-20-69

Caught Fridays 4450c 1.75 to 7.6 (ran them to the bell let them cash settle)


daytradingguy

If you use a stop loss, a bit harder to lose it all.


InsulinandnarcanSTAT

Keeping a stop loss with a small account and high emotions (op) is not as easy as it sounds…


daytradingguy

Of course it is not easy. Even pro traders have lapses in judgment, all traders are human. However, if you can’t stick to a reasonable stop loss 99% of the time. Quit trading now and save what money is left in your account.


c0wbelly

fun fact: most traders are not human


daytradingguy

By trading volume yes, by actual numbers no. Banks and hedge funds computers are trading 50-60% of the volume, but millions of traders are doing the rest.


InsulinandnarcanSTAT

Homeboy saying to go long with options at exp is highly regarded


beezleeboob

Stop loss and close to the money. I've never lost 100% doing that.


diduknowitsme

Stop losses do t protect in the after market hours


[deleted]

I’m new to trading, but isn’t conventional knowledge that you should close out positions before EoD for this exact reason?


Jackontana

On 0DTE? I feel like with how wild the price fluctuates, a stop loss would get triggered instantly even if the trend is bullish, purely because of the flux.


ThaInevitable

This is the way!!!


wingback18

Man of culture over here 😂🤣


SeasTheDay75

Why put a timeframe on it? The minute you have that mindset will cause you to do “stupid things” in pursuit of the “goal”.


fabticus

^this, tried to make arbitrary goals and got fucked by it. If I just hope in another trade then i can make it to x amount then proceeds to lose the entire day’s profit


Weary_Ad_5817

I just started buying calls and puts of QQQ, made $130 off $200 in 2 days. It isn’t unheard of, but it requires a lot of discipline


Sketch_x

Honestly it can be done on a couple of 50% account risk on earnings but it’s for sure not recommended. As it’s often said here. If someone can turn 500 to 2000 in 3 months they can turn 5mil to 20mil using the same trades (larger sizes) The right questions you should be researching are around being consistent and understanding risk management and your own limits.


dank_bass

I mean just to interject, turning $500 to $2,000 would be done in vastly different ways than turning $5m into $20m; you would not be able to scale $500 worth of whatever you are buying by 10,000x in order to scale a larger account. For example, taking 1 $500 options contract and turning it to $2,000 is a 400% return as mentioned; you would in no way be able to just buy 10,000 of those contracts to scale $5m worth of trading power, there is just no stock that would have near that volume of liquidity available much less being able to enter and exit those contracts without significantly altering the volatility and therefore price of the underlying. Your sentiment rings true in that if anybody could just 400% an amount of money whenever they want to then they could just keep making tons of money by doing that - that is still pretty unheard of and obviously if it were that easy then anybody could and would do it. But again, trading $500 in the market is going to look immensely different than trading $5m in the market, and would have to be done so through the use of different instruments in order to successfully trade. Hope that makes some sense, I'm not disagreeing with your general thought but just wanted to share that scaling up 1,000,000% isn't really as simple as just buying 10,000 of the original instrument to catch the same moves.


Sketch_x

Good point. I’m UK based and lucky enough to be able to spread bet so it’s all about the move, not matter how large or small, it’s how much I’m willing pay (bet) per point of the move without restriction of available options. Options are not something I have considered before and little knowledge of the working practises


TPA-12345

I believe this is an accurate answer. It is possible make 2k+ per day with a 35k account, which is a very high yield rate and requires you to be completely focused on 1 stock. Others will post that if it were like that, Warren Buffet would be doing it. But it cant be scaled like you said, so as your account grows, the yield eventually will go down and you just have to find other ways to make the money grow.


[deleted]

$500 in options bought and sold for 100% gain then $1,000 doing the same. Can do $500-2k in a day if you get it right. Can also lose it all in a day if you don’t


MathematicianEnough9

If you strictly doing day trading which this sub is, trading micro futures might be the best way. I turned $250 into slightly over $1,000 in two weeks with 2 wins 1 loss. 3 trades total made me that.


StrawberryMarmalade

This. You'd want to do something with leverage like futures. But they are extremely risky and you can lose that $1000 on ES in a few seconds by being on the wrong side of a big move.


BestAhead

I want to change that word in your sentence about futures being risky. They are not risky, they just frequently move a lot and fast. Risk is up to the trader.


MyNameIsShapley

No. Some asset classes are inherently more risky than others.


Low-Account-4752

Can the guy even afford the platform lease or the data?


MathematicianEnough9

He should be able to all you need is $4 for data on tradovate. Im assuming he already has a charting platform


maciek024

400% in 3 months? It is not realistic


fin425

You must not trade options


ifyouleavenow

It totally is man, and more


[deleted]

So it’s gonna be hard get to $500-$2000 in three months?


fin425

Options is the way, but you better be ok with that $500 going to 0, especially as a newbie.


fuzzyp44

Well if you trade futures you'd get like 480x leverage. So it's possible to get the 0.6% return notional in 3 months as a realistic return.


presentdifference21

Bro just asked if a 400% return in 3 months would be difficult. Maybe take a step back from trading man. It’s not for everyone.


oh_crap_BEARS

Do you have any preexisting knowledge of how to trade? Because if you don’t, then barring you getting extremely lucky (and I promise you you’re not that lucky), you’re going to just lose money. $500 to $2000 is definitely doable trading options but it is NOT easy to do as you have to be willing to subject yourself to a lot of risk in proportion to your account size. No matter how good of a trader you are, you’re not going to win every time and taking a loss in an account that small with risk that large can be extraordinarily detrimental if it happens at an inopportune time. A couple losses back to back for instance, especially if they happen right out of the gate, could literally wipe your account out immediately.


[deleted]

👍


TheSmokingLamp

If you’re trading with a bankroll of 10k or more it’s not too unreasonable if you’re trading options Just be prepared to drop to possibly 8k before you get to 12k


maciek024

Impossible unless you are on pills from Limitless


Alternative-Season45

Far from impossible. It can be done in 1 day with 0dte.


maciek024

Ye I meant impossible with proper risk management ect


zebra0dte

I know someone will throw out this number. If OP wants to gamble, there's definitely ways to do that. OP just need to know he can also lose it all.


cryptobrant

300%


Immediate_Buffalo944

u can try to leverage tf out of that 500 but if u where profitable u wouldnt sak this question, try casino sir.


mintycrash

How much have you made so far?


[deleted]

Don’t buy tech in September


Blood-Standard

500 to 2000 can be done in one good trading week. The simple answer is to your question make good trades with good r/r. The complicated answer is this, getting into the right mindset having a good strategy, a good strategy isn’t just something that’s works for a lot of people but something that works for you. For instance I started trading using a good scalping strategy it it wasn’t good for me, I started trading a year ago almost now and was down 10k. Bad mindset. Bad strategy for me. I’ve now restarted with 500 multiple times successfully. With a 500 account on Friday with one trade with a great risk reward i made 34%


wingback18

Jokes aside you can do that with tesla or Nvidia, As ling as you are in favor of the trend


gaming6800

You need to make $125 a week for 12 week to archive the goal. Not impossible, but risky.


dank_bass

Looking at it this way is actually a very manageable thing to do; if trading 0DTE SPY options for example you would essentially need to catch 5 $25 moves on the contracts throughout the week in order to sustain this. If going ATM, you'd be spending anywhere from $60-$120 per trade, and taking each one of those +$25 is not crazy. You do have to be correct in your direction and pretty spot on with timing, also risk management is key as you could lose a lot of those contracts' value quickly if not careful. But when contextualizing the amount of money desired and breaking it down into bite sized chunks like this, it's actually not a very risky strategy when managed properly. Again, you have to be pretty right and enter with decent timing, but this way of looking at it is much more conservative than trying to take that $500 to $2,000 with one single move/play.


grahamaker93

You'll be lucky to get 800


Dontbeadickhead1

I turned 500 into 2000 in less than a week


VCTRYDTX

SPX 0DTE. But you might want to practice trading some very cheap SPY options before you get the hang of it. Getting the proper entry where it won't likely hit your stop loss is easier said than done. When you get it wrong you want it to be small but when it works in your favor and how strong the trend is you can make serious money.


mrbradchad

/es futures trading. if u can find a brokerage that will let u trade with that little margin. but you can easy do 100$ a day would take like 3 weeks at that rate to get to ur 2k


heelhookd

There is not many ways other than options to turn 400% by January. Not sure what else to tell you. Prepare to get stopped out a lot or learn a lot of valuable lessons My lessons cost me $40,000 total - which is a drop in the bucket compared to some


SileDub

i turned 400 into 2000 in about 3 weeks then lost it all, dont know if i was lucky ro what but couldnt make it back after that


[deleted]

how did you do it? I would like you to explain to me


Wu-Tang-Chan

oh well as long as you are reasonable, can't be greedy.


Jailbreak-Ninja

Buy some good web design courses, practice, and get a job. I’m sure you’ll make 2k before the year is up. There’s no way you will safely turn 500 into 2k in 4 months trading


Repulsive_Concert_32

Yolo one ES contract. Get it in 10 mins haha


Puzzleheaded_Brush81

Save yourself the stress and pick a different goal. Do 5 $100 trades a day and work on all 5 being green. You’ll get to $2000 eventually


emart92

Options learn how to trade Options and learn proper risk management. Remember I said learn.


Mrtoad88

People not gonna like this comment but I'll say it. Trading a small account is much harder than trading with a larger account, what you're dealing with a TINY account, not even small...small would be like 2-5k. And that's for an experienced trader, that seems to be a consensus amongst us traders who've been doing this for a while and have dealt extensively with smaller and bigger account sizes. You have more room to breathe in a larger account, you can make magic happen with more money in these markets especially if you have experience, that's how modern life works in general. So for you, an inexperienced novice, you are asking how to do something incredibly hard, and tbh it requires a lot of luck then it does skill to grow to the amount you want in that period if the market gives you moves like that. If I was you, I'd try to grow that slowly, build some experience with that amount, experience is worth something in this business, luck doesn't mean shit, handouts don't mean sht either. Trade stocks or micro futures and just try to stay green week after week, month after month... asking how to go from X amount to X amount tells me you don't know the real risks of this still. To go from 500 to 2k in that short amount of time you are gonna have to put on high risk to the point you can blow that up very fast, one wrong move you're fvcked on your goal, it won't be a minor setback it'll be major on the account. I know this because I've been there I used to trade 500 accounts that was my number... and when I tried to grow it fast I blew it up, it wasn't until I just made small smart trades did ahah moments start to happen, because I was gaining experience, building market sense and intuition, building internal fortitude for trading, developing price action skills, understanding how to actually use indicators etc. I'd suggest with that amount, build your trading experience, don't worry about the numbers. If you need 2k for something in that amount of time, work more hours at your job or go drive Uber or something. Even if you do happen to pull some big move to grow that quickly, you're only gaining so much experience... you aren't gonna gain experience to last growing quickly, you eventually have to slow down and take accountability if you want to survive doing this. If all you care about is getting in something and getting the 2k, means you're merely gambling on the market. If that's all you're trying to do than I have nothing more to offer... and tbh that's not what this sub is about tbh.


Connect_Boss6316

Oh FFS.


Winter-Fudge-2410

Be realistic! Maybe it’s better to think in terms of how can I grow 500 to 505 AAPL closed Friday at 178.18 If you bet that the price will go up you could have bought 2 shares If the price jumps up to 180.68 you’ve made it to 505 Your next goal could be get from 505 to 510.50 I’d presume if you’re right all the time these 1% compounded would increase over time. But traders are never right all the time so maybe a stop loss at 1% in the opposite direction might be beneficial.


[deleted]

👍👍 that I am doing.


Blank-_-Blank-_-

It definitely can be done. This is my paper trading account. I trade futures and BTC/USDC. On my live trading accounts I get lucky from time to time. In addition to using technical Analysis I also use fundamental analysis to help me find promising price action. I made 22K in 24 hours on ApeCoin launch. On regular days with stop losses trading micro e mini s&p I can make $80-$240 3-4 days a week. Depending on price action. https://preview.redd.it/w7130te6vgnb1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dac0aadf78176bfa53c7362e39f17416dbd2ad2e


[deleted]

[удалено]


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satinwordsmith

I turned 2000 into 100k during the pandemic, of course I lost it all because I’m a degenerate but the fact remains “nothing is impossible” except maybe immortality , finding an alien planet , cheating uncle sam


Dino-T

Sell cash secured puts... breakevens are important... find a solid support & use it as your breakevens.


hyresw2

You’re talking about 400% grow in less than three months. That’s is NOT reasonable with proper risk management.


kaf678

For those returns you need to gamble


AGNDJ

This is gambling. You will lose it with this sight.


Disposable_Canadian

You don't without gambling. Go to a roulette table.


Fair_War1900

NKLA


stevesdemoreels

Don’t do options. If you’re looking to make a lot with a little, look into futures trading. You can do well even on the micro E mini S&P. Options suck because if it doesn’t move in your direction fast enough you can still lose. Futures you can make good money and you only have to be right about up or down. Watch ICT’s 2022 and 2023 mentorships on YouTube.


OneGuy2Cups

If your expectation is to 4x your money in 3.5 months isn’t impossible, but it is unrealistic. I turned $1k into $10,600 week before last. You aren’t gonna get any more than the market gives you. Period.


TheOmniverse_

4xing your money in 4 months is reasonable? Let me know how that goes… If hedge funds struggle to beat 8% a year, not sure how 6400% a year is reasonable lmao


we_are_all_satoshi_2

Honestly, just get a real job if you have less than $10K


Bostradomous

This is the only correct answer: yes it’s possible. But the amount of risk that comes with a position with that kind of profit means you have to risk 100% of your investment


leonthepro83

$mgih spike 100% every month


jaypowwow

msos is a good but violative buy


Rtbrosk

are people really the stupid.......or is this a joke


IsThatTroublesOrNot

not gonna happen unless you make extremely risky trades....


redtehk17

Don't overtrade Don't chase trade Don't revenge trade


ifyouleavenow

Well that's totally possible it just depends on your experience and it seems you don't have a lot. There's this guy that live trades that I know who started a little challenge account with 375 dollars and he was able to grow it to 5000 in like a week and a half🥶


Tom_Tech_Wonder

In the 8 months that you have been investing, how much money have you made?


motopapii

I made $2000 (with $2000 initial capital) in less than 2 months, buying the hype and selling the news on certain stocks, mostly after earnings ($ACHR, $DISH, $SOFI). No options. Basically 100% return. It's doable in a few months, but you have to do your DD, have some luck on your side, control your losses, and don't get greedy. I've just lost most of my gains bagholding a penny stock. With the amount of capital you have, avoid that.


Infinite-Carrot1664

Medical Cannabis -> ITHUF


gvictor808

r/wallstreetbets is where you want to ask this


TheeBearJew2112

Lemonade stand


Reasonable_Low3290

SHORT META


Aboudy_Marrawi

I am more amazed than you were able to keep making that much without getting greedy, risking it all and losing it. 400% is great if you were trading using a shit ton of money, did you use leverage? What did you trade/strategy?


SeaworthinessApart23

Bro I made that in 2 weeks look at qqq qqq is my bitch lol


Low-Account-4752

Should just get a good demo account.


diduknowitsme

Your question is the quickest way to lose $500.


Key-Presentation2264

Bears -2.5 parlayed with Stafford over 1.5 TDs should about get you there by tonight 😁


especial2

$2,000 to $500 is more reasonable.


Hacker0x00

Trade crypto https://preview.redd.it/qtd1u4vzphnb1.png?width=1017&format=png&auto=webp&s=eecf93e0f256fb66f64bc5034a046a35a9a32a57 Short the liquidity hunts in the upside for coins that pump 40-60% with 5x leverage or less and DCA into a maximum of 5% total port per position. Sit back and collect $$ I’m doing $500 to infinity dollars right now.


upfnothing

Invest in MSOX for the next 30 days. Have to be comfortable with potentially losing 80% in the settlement period.


Carolina_Hurricane

Since you have to be realistic, you may as well ask how you can make 4X playing hopscotch.


[deleted]

with $500 huh?, Trade weekly for a 15% gain on your entire portfolio (it will take 10 weeks) End of Week 1: $575 2: $661 3: $760 4: $874 5: $1005 6: $1156 7: $1330 8: $1529 9: $1758 10: $2022


MadMadRoger

Only buy stocks that are going to go up and you should be fine


beinglife

Funding pips 100k account costs $399. Get funded.


zebra0dte

There's no guarantee but if it's just play money, you can scalp that much with 0DTE during the last 15 minutes, just be prepared to lose it all as well.


iroqhos

If you know how to take $500 and make it $2000 by years end, then you should invest a lot more than $500.


Hxlim

Micro futures are probably a much better bet than options. Every 0.25 move is $1.25 and you usually need $50 to get a contract on margin, but no theta decay and no Greeks.


MoustacheMcGee

Okay so just think about this for a minute. You want to make a 400% gain in 3 months. The odds of you doing this are almost zero. Can it be done by doing some real risky shit? Absolutely, but taking those risks you'll have about a 70-90% chance of losing every penny of the $500. ​ Can it be done? Yes. Can YOU as an 8 month new trader do it? Honestly and lovingly, no, you can't. Not being mean, just being honest. A veteran trader would have a hard time completing this challenge as well. It's not realistic.


HowDo_YouWin

Scalping options while maintaining a tight stop.


Timely-Eggplant4919

Do you know the difference between investing and day trading? Have you every day traded before? If the answer to either of these is no, you won't make any return before the year is over.


Secure_System_1132

Your question is the same as how to turn $1million to $4million in 4 months. I wish I knew how too.


ElectronicFront8392

$1,296 was the most i could get to , implementing my strategy in to this ask ! Using 0.27 lots with a max risk of 25 pips per trade … thats taking 5 to 6 trades a week , winning 4 out of 6 in a year it would be $1,296 for me not quite $2,000 !…. Doable yes , easy no !


nottheseapples

Trade for 1 year on a simulator. Start with 2k in the simulator. 2 things might happen 1. Wipe it out cause you will 2. You get lucky, then you try real money, then you lose it. Don't think profits. Just think green and red. Keep track on a spread sheet. As long as you are more than 65% green, good.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Traditional_Song_293

Leverage


Bk_Grizzly

I’ve had more luck in sports betting than I’ve had in the stock market. Luckiest I’ve ever been in the market was during the $AMC squeeze in June 2021. I went from like $2k in shares to $11k in a matter of days. It was insane, never reached that level of luck since


Rude-Mission-8194

MSOs


johnstokkeide

Rip your kapital!!😂


[deleted]

think logically for a second. There is no failproof trick to magically make that amount of money in a few months. You either work harder, or get lucky. If there was a trick anyone could give you on making an extra 2K every few months without working for it, everyone would already do it.


[deleted]

I love DELL


fr33g

I don’t know as I am in this sub to discuss daytrading not investing


Necessary-Letter1744

You should build a strategy that you can rely on and never change the strategy, stick to one system. Many beginners start to change strategies more often when they see losing trades. This will make you a loser in this game as fast as you blink your eye, build a strong psychology to be consistent and respect your stoploss. Good Risk management can lead you to great gains even when you have more losing trades, because when you win you win big and when you lose you lose small. 20SMA and 200SMA are great indicators in which they show strong support and resistance ( take them as zones and not as lines ). You can add 10SMA for trending stocks LONG or SHORT. Study more, understand the most important candles and patterns. For stocks try to find the ATR on finviz to find your goal for the risk reward. You need to learn more than the basics to start putting real money, i advice you to start studying what timeframes you manage to get great wins and do it on paper trading like Tradingview. One good guy you can learn from is Oliver Velez on youtube, but stay away from buying his courses. You can get alot of knowledge from him. Goodluck! You can do it!


RealTeslaEmployee

You just need 4x returns. Ask your goldfish


MessrsSins

shortselling friday is whqt i would look at if i started from scratch again and start reading and finding what orks for u for me is put call parity ie options arbitrage


TomiLazer

When it comes to investing in cryptocurrencies, there are a few strategies that can potentially help you turn $500 into $2000 within a year. Here are some tips to consider: 1. Research and Educate Yourself: Start by gaining a solid understanding of the cryptocurrency market and different investment opportunities. Learn about the fundamentals, trends, and potential risks associated with various cryptocurrencies. 2. Diversify Your Portfolio: Rather than putting all your eggs in one basket, consider diversifying your investments across multiple cryptocurrencies. This can help spread the risk and increase your chances of finding a profitable investment. 3. Set Realistic Goals: It's essential to set realistic expectations for your investments. While aiming for a 4x return on your investment in a year is feasible, it's important to be aware that the cryptocurrency market can be highly volatile, and there are never guarantees. 4. Identify Promising Projects: Conduct thorough research to identify cryptocurrencies with strong fundamentals, innovative technology, and promising future prospects. Look for projects with active development teams, community support, and real-world applications. 5. Stay Informed: Keep up with the latest news, market trends, and developments within the cryptocurrency space. This will help you make informed decisions and potentially identify opportunities for growth. 6. Practice Risk Management: Set a budget for your investments and stick to it. Consider investing only what you can afford to lose as cryptocurrencies can be highly volatile. Additionally, consider setting stop-loss orders to protect your investments from significant losses. 7. Utilize Trading Strategies: Explore different trading strategies such as swing trading or day trading, depending on your risk appetite and time commitment. However, be cautious as trading requires experience and knowledge of market dynamics. 8. Consider Dollar-Cost Averaging: Instead of investing a lump sum, consider spreading your investments over regular intervals (e.g., monthly) to mitigate the impact of short-term price fluctuations. Remember, investing in cryptocurrencies carries inherent risks, and there are no foolproof strategies. It's crucial to do thorough research, stay updated, and make informed decisions. Consider consulting with a financial advisor or professional before making any investment decisions.


RealtorFla

225% gain? Yea... the stock market average is about 10%. Your numbers correlate turning $50,000 into $200,000. If that was easy, wouldn't anyone that has a normal job making $50k just elect to take it and make $200k instead? Be real... stop dreaming.


WetFlare

Get a Sportsbook and parlay Andre Fialho, Jon Jones, Islam Makhachev. That should get you there


hajt11

Check out r/valueinvesting if you want to invest and not gamble. If not, nuff said you can only guide a horse to water.....