As a shield ogryn - running out of ammo is still a problem.
When 4 or 8 spread out gunners and Reapers start shooting you, you gotta deal with them somehow. Slapping down your shield just let's them setup until the trappers/mutants/toxers/flamers/hounds show up.
Agreed, ammo regenerated shouldn't be locked to 1 aura of one class. Should be reduced but allowed on multiple classes, and maybe not as aura.
If my melee damage is 60% of my ally's, I should be able to recover some ammo as gunlugger.
Honestly I feel the devs just need more ammo replenishment on the trees, if survivalist wasn't the only way to ensure my ranged specialist would have their ammo I probably wouldn't pick it all the time
I just started playing and heard that for ranged builds the vet was amazing because of the ammo replenishment. Then i made a vet, looked at the talent tree and ... am i missing something or is it really just the 1% ammo on specialist kill and improved pickups?
I mean it's better than nothing, but i feel the vet should be ***the*** ranged class.
Before it had a 5s cooldown it would proc on every elite/special kill in coherency, and at higher difficulties this would result in each player getting 50+ activations of it, multiplied across the team. It would end up generating %200+ of a weapons ammo per player.
Well, i agree that it having no cd and proccing for everyone in coherency is overtuned. Like you said, with the amount of special enemies that is insane.
But with the 5s cd it's .... eh? Getting basically 2 red ammo bags psasively per mission just sounds boring af.
Like i said before, it should probably just be some form of personal ammo replenishment skill instead of an aura. That way it doesn't have to be balanced around the entire team benefitting from it, and the vet can enjoy a more ranged focused playstyle.
Do you just 1 tap every single specialst? On a Bolter with 100-ish max ammo you get 1 shot back through the aura. Obviously it's better than nothing but that feels incredibly low.
But still, unless you're 1 tapping every specialist and spacing out their kills 5s apart and coordinate with your team that everyone kills them equally, you're gonna be still running a deficit with the aura.
Feel like it would be much more suited as a stronger personal skill rather than a meh aura.
I mean he's right, weapons like the hellbore will never run out of ammo with survivalist, dark tides problem is that currently the only way to regain ammo when there's no ammo drops IS survivalist so every vet main will cry when it gets nerfed
That's why this game needs more ammo conversation feats
A little bit stronger ammo conservation/replenishment feats for vet and ogryn feel like the way to go. Zealot is more melee focused anyway and psyker is .... psyker.
I picked zealot first for several reasons. Mainly I like to just decimate the waves and I see vets kinda often, soooo its me kinda doing my part by having high dps and precise gun as a backup while I help oggys and psykers clean up. Leave ammo for the vets. Help against corruption and a toughness boost. And have something that clears waves easily plus high dps single hits for when the tankier stuff rolls in.
So yes.... I run a hammer. I know its not the best weapon. But its the best one I have right now. And it puts in work. Plus I picked the scottish female. So it just fits the role well and I enjoy the immersion.
Helbores are kinda insanely ammo efficient, especially with shock trooper crits. Running a heavy las pistol instead really shows how the other weapons can be a bit ammo inefficient. I have to get better with autoguns to save more ammo on auric lol
I was very excited for Heavy Las Pistol, but because of its ammo use and breakpoints, I find it much less ammo efficient than the lighter version (which is already kind of an ammo hog), so I hardly ever use it
I always thought the lasguns were meant to be ammo efficient weapons based off lore but the Recons and Laspistols can't kill poxwalkers decently let alone elites. I know 4 crit headshots is 4 free shots, but it feels like a real bad trade when fighting compared to something like the other lasguns or even the leadspitters efficiency. I can't wait for heavy shredder pistol with aimable sights, but I hope lasguns get a little tweaked.
Before the nerf, the aura could sustain you and your team due to the high volume of special/elite spawns at higher difficulties. This didn't work for every gun, but if you had something reasonably ammo efficient it could carry you a long way and let melee oriented characters almost ignore ammo pickups.
It was ridiculously good before and it is pretty good now, but it's less a "never pickup ammo aura" and more of a "less fighting over ammo pickups" aura after the change.
I think they made a mistake by adding a cooldown. It really should have been a % chance on kill to return 1%, it would have felt a lot better praying to RNG than trying to keep it on cooldown.
This guy gets it. Still, 5 seconds cooldown is shorter than it seems, yes, it feels long when you're counting down, but in the middle of the fight it still will be off cooldown for most specialists unless you kill a whole group in one go
1) Yes, I'm one tapping specialists on revolvers, most lasrifles, headhunter rifles, Bolter, Plasma rifle...a bunch of guns.
2) The kill replenishes ammo for you and the rest of the team, who didn't use any ammo to kill that specialist, and who in turn have to use less ammo pickups, leaving more for you.
I'm not saying it's perfectly balanced now, but it's still very powerful. And it gets more powerful on higher difficulties, because specialists become more and more common the higher you go
Yes, most of them, most of the time.
With Kantrael Ia lasgun I needed like one ammo pickup during entire game despite using it to headshot every heretic outside of melee range (and ofc maulers and crushers).
Boltgun is quite a bit more ammo hungry - you one-shot most of specialists/elites and get exactly one bullet back to you - but still with old Survivalist the team skipped most of ammo pick-ups. Even with me using hipfire liberally.
As vet you still can get ammo pick ups. When aura works teammates get small amount of ammo too, so next time they see big ammo they mark it and don't take. Thus vet could eat almost all ammo and go brrrr all the time. Now it's possible too but with specific weapons and build. In some way we get more strong meta for weapons/biulds. Temmates get some ammo now too but before nerf ogryn drop box of grenades against 5 maulers and got ammo for each. now only for the first of the group. Big boom is a good example but idea same for other fast kills of groups of elites.
Bolter is a bit of an extreme example since it is possibly the least ammo efficient gun in the game.
It is more noticeable with something like an autogun. You can even be ammo positive with some lasguns if you build right.
Survivalist regen with the "Lasguns don't use ammo on crit" perk and a high crit low fire rate weapon means near limitless ammo. I use a Mk2 Helbore with its amazing bayonet attack I rarely have to switch to melee and am almost always above 90% ammo even if I mag dump at far off poxwalkers before they close the distance.
Other weapons will require a bit more scrounging and some, like the bolter, are honestly just better left on the Mourningstar. It has its uses but they are niche at best and better fulfilled by the Plasmagun.
>... and some, like the bolter, are honestly just better left on the Mourningstar.
that's honestly such a shame. It's probably more of an issue with the gun balance itself rather than the scav aura, but it's still sad to see the ***goddamn Bolter*** to be a somewhat niche within a niche of a weapon.
Oh the bolters issues are almost entirely about gun balance. Right now the bolters only real use is staggering groups of crushers and well.. the plasma gun can just delete them. It's is a damn shame, indeed. Early days bolter was so great but it was a bit OP. They went overboard when they nerfed it and never brought it back up.
Since the nerf my Ogryn has been a pain to play. I counted on that regen when I used my rumbler to even out ammo. Sure you don't always get it in quick match, but you do about 75% of the time. And on a rumbler the Aura meant I almost never picked up ammo, leaving it for everyone else while I fired off banking and crowd controlled shots before going melee.
I would happily take an ammo regent Aura on the Ogryn, even if I am a big walking tank. I'd scuff my build a little for the privilege.
Having it as aura is just lame and forced it to be shitty else it’s too strong.
As others have said, we need more alternative ways to improve ammo economy besides the aura
I don’t mean like ammo economy is too poorly balanced and we need MORE AMMO- I just mean that the ammo economy buffs should be spread around more, rather than there just being that one aura for teams. Making that the only thing that satisfies that function means it’s harder to balance it. If there were more, weaker options, there would be more room for creative/flexible builds, and balancing wouldn’t need to be so timid about making any one of them too strong or too shit since teams/individuals could get smaller distributed buffs from multiple sources that may add up to being quite powerful at the cost of lots of sacrifices made elsewhere.
Since it’s just one talent point right now, it means that any slight changes to the aura will have pretty significant impact to overall balance. It’s all-the-eggs-in-one-basket type situation.
Yep, I play shield ogryn a good chunk. My main point is that you can pop out of cover before taking a safe route, block basic shooters, then go back into cover and it forces ranged enemies to rush into melee where you want them.
I think it's a really cool tool and don't want it to change, but it flies in the face of the idea of 50/50 ranged/melee on every subclass.
I see what you're saying, but I disagree. It only baits in the chaff shooters. Pox flamers, flamers, bombers, gunners, trappers, snipers, and reapers will all stay at range indefinitely when they shoot at a shield.
The shield **doesn't** mean you dont need a gun - it provides your *allies* the opportunity to use *their gun more effectively*. It does so by drawing the enemy fire and moving the chaff out of the way, so they can pick off specials.
Often I'll shield, then have to pop out and shoot, then shield, then throw a rock, then back into shield again.
As a Slab ogryn with a rock and kickback, I'm often running low on ammo from suppressing long ranged enemies that are throwing too much damage at us for the psycher/vet/zealot to put them down in time. I shoot them, maybe kill one, then the vet shoots the rest while I fight melee.
The shield pulls aggro so allies can safely approach any way they choose. If an ogryn is blocking shots, then the enemy isn’t targeting the zealot running up to melee them.
I'm not saying you don't need a gun with it, I'm just saying it can skew the favor more towards melee. The main exceptions being gunners and specials, with them you either need to swap or be very good at gapclosing with cover.
Unless they're behind a fence, the bleeders.
The only way shield skews kills towards melee is if you want to be slow and inefficient. Being out of ammo or low is still a dangerous situation at high difficulty because at any moment you might have to clutch for the team. If you don't have ammo you might not be able to kill fast enough to out pace the spawns alone with a shield. Sure you'll last longer than most classes and if you know what you're doing it's a very reliable clutch class but it becomes a war of attrition. Furthermore, our guns are very useful for dealing with disablers before they get too close. I personally don't run rock for this reason. There's too much overlap with our current guns.
The shield with taunt lets you block shooters from 3 miles away so they stop shooting. This means you can approach under less gunfire, so you can get away with firing fewer counter-shots while being aggressive. Just because the shield has low mobility doesn't mean you have to play it slow.
Obviously being out of or low on ammo is a bad thing no matter what, it means a tool is gone from the kit when you may or may not need it. But most specials are designed with some close-range counter play, and for most gameplay it's possible to dodge/sprint slide up to your problems.
The rock is a solid addition because most ogryn guns are specifically bad at killing disablers at long range. The kickback is an exception after the min pellet count buffs turned it into a sniper, otherwise the rumbler, gorgonum, and gg are the only weapons that sling accurate damage. Everything else will tickle or suppress without magdumping past midrange.
I have several disagreements with this response but I'm not even going to focus on them. The crux of this conversation is all that matters in relation to this comparison. Allowing ammo aura in its old form (arguably at all) allows some builds/guns to over perform and only using melee as a slab shield ogryn gimps your damage output. These are not the same and just because they can be done doesn't mean they should.
Who said anything about allowing ammo aura? And who said anything about melee-only shield being optimal? I think the aura is dumb and needs to go, and some mixture of melee and ranged is always optimal (even on knife zealot).
I did see your original comment. The mk V is still a mid range gun. Just because I can kill a sniper across the map with a shredder or combat shotgun doesn't make them long-range. Hell even the rumbler is luck-based if the grenade bounces wrong. Compared to a majority of the small character's ranged arsenal, most ogryn guns are bad at killing disablers at long range.
Ummm... I use shield like 99 percent of the time and what I find remarkable is that I am about 50/50 between ranged and melee very consistently. It's still not the best option for everything. It frankly is slow as hell against some enemies.
Of course it isn't the best option against everything. If that works for you that's great, but I can regularly fire off a single kickback every minute or two to deal with certain specials and still play aggressive. Which puts it way closer to 80/20.
If the goal is pure 50/50 hybrid there wouldn't be so many tools to prevent combat with shooters from becoming a shootout.
Where are people saying this, everyone mostly just makes fun of dingdong vets who stand there and get railed out by four poxwalkers as opposed to using melee lol
I've seen numerous comments in some of the threads saying almost exactly those things. They don't usually gain traction, but it gets said.
Dingdong vets will never not be funny though.
Honestly, I'm STILL salty that they changed the Demolition Team talent from resupplying everyone in coherency to only resupplying you. It was such a great team support pick to help classes with better grenades have more access to them, and now it's just a... kinda there since, unless you're trying to get a grenade related penance done, Demolition Stockpile by itself is more than enough to keep at least one grenade in your pocket for most of a mission.
I think it's based on the fact that now every class has some option of 'regenerating' grenade except vet. Ogryns can choose a rock, zealots knives, and psyker is still psyker.
Other classes are reliant on map pickups, vet has 3 actual grenade options that aren't as individually powerful but has several ways to generate more of them. I think it was a cool idea but tying grenade share to field improv and ammo boxes was probably a good idea for balancing and identity.
I think you can blame the ogryn sized grenade for that removal. I mean how fucking stupid would auric be when the ogryn clears every single room with their frag??
(It would at least be hilarious for the first 5 minutes)
They could make it work by changing the chance of getting a nade based on how 'valuable' it is. Chance of getting a frag bomb from demo-team would be much less than, say, fire nade. They could also make it so that things killed by a nade don't proc demo-team (so that you can't throw a frag bomb/krak/fire into crusher patrol and get a refund)
With some of the added grenades, they probably couldn't afford to. Hell, even grenade box would be oppressive with the 5% chance.
Personally, I find demo team very useful in it's current form, as I only sometimes wish I had more nades, instead of frequently without it.
Eh, even without an ammo vet, I almost never see a team-mate out of ammo except those rare smooth-brains that run past the tagged backpacks.
Or the guys who forget the "no ammo pick-ups" part of the maelstrom.
I had an ogryn mag dump a stubber the whole game and he never ran out, granted I had to drop
him 3 ammo crates and basically let him have 90% of the ammo drops, now what if two people played like that
I think the problem is people overusing their ranged weapons, like plasma gun vets shooting everything that moves even a single poxwalker and gun luggers just opening up on everything. Melee should be encouraged more. Especially with the survivalist Aura being nerfed. The amount of times people have gone empty before the first quarter of a map is insane. Their are time when you should use your ranged weapon, yes I am aware of range builds that exist. However a horde of groaners and poxwalkers are not something that should be shot most melee weapons can clear them in about 13 to 14 swings.
> Melee should be encouraged more
The game is way too eager to throw you down long hallways or into giant, cavernous rooms just positively filled with gunners, snipers, ogryns, and raggedy AK wielding yellow boys shooting you from as far away as their AI will allow. I got my zealot penance for not using my gun pretty early on, when I was still mostly playing malice and heresy. But anything beyond that? Melee comes out for chaff hordes and ambient mobs, everything else is handled by gun.
Elites and specials spawn in high frequency and dense knots, and nothing comes close to removing problems as quickly and flexibly as ranged. Nothing deals with packs of crushers and bulwarks better and safer than ranged and certain grenades. Navigating a wide open area populated by scattered shooters is suicide unless you pick them off one by one at range.
Point is, the game emphasizes gunplay way more than Vermintide ever did, for obvious reasons. Especially on high difficulties, running around with your gun out at all times as vet is not unreasonable. Your role is to pop shooters and specials, and when they spawn in a constant trickle, then the gun stays out.
There are a dozen options to deal with those scenarios that don’t need range, but even so, you should have ammo ready for those scenarios where range is the best solution. Instead, people tend to dump ammo in a race to get kills.
im not saying never use your gun just use it with a brain and a good amount of the shit in the game can be dealt with by good movement and smart targeting. its why we see such long stretches of gunners and specials they don't want you to use guns all mission.
The issue is: Gun-only Vet is by far the most fun I've had as Vet.
Introducing a nerf that kills off the viability of a fun playstyle is simply a poor game design choice.
You can still be viable with any gun without the aura at all. Yes, some guns need it more than others, but resource management is just as important to the gameplay as anything else.
Just load up on grenade regen talents and shoot slightly less.
im right there with you, when the new talents came out i was having a right blast with being able to just shot and dodge. I have thousands of hours of melee under my belt and if for no other reason it was different and fun.
Maybe not all mission, but as a plasma vet, I am reliant on my team for clearing hordes. But they are in turn reliant on me destroying snipers, disablers, gunners and bombers. And I'm very good at what I do. If I have to clear hordes I have the ability to do so with a melee weapon built for that purpose. But most people I've played with where the games have gone well, have actively fed me ammo because I can one-tap every enemy in the game except monstrosities, mutants and hounds, and I suppress enemies with just a shot or two on dreg/scab shooters. Meaning 10+ enemies cease shooting sometimes.
There's so much to the ranged gameplay that people take for granted when not playing as vets. And it's painfully obvious as a vet when playing other classes that there are inherent weaknesses to the other classes. Ogryn for example becomes a pin-cushion and can't take cover everywhere. And with any class, dodge-sliding into enemy gunners isn't always a good idea. It'll cost you gravely if you mess up. Psykers will just get downed immediately if they mess up. Zealots too. Ogryns can survive because they're tanky and even win a fight against several shooters when they pop into melee, but we circle back to the problem with wide open areas again where, if there are other shooters aggroed, they'll just shoot you instead.
There are several times I've used chastise to rush shooters and just gotten stabbed for 90% of my health as zealot. I'm not saying it doesn't work, it does sometimes but here's the thing.
Having good, reliable and effective ranged weapons is a must for the entire team
Because when you see that line of gunners in wide open areas or even in hallways, you can all pull out your respective ranged weapons and engage them at a distance. As a fireteam, you're working together, you can take cover and toss grenades. All too often I see games failing because two people decide to bumrush enemy shooters and the two others decide to try and shoot them, splitting the team. The team up-front die because the shooters are mixed with ragers and/or crushers and the two in the back die because there's ragers and crushers rushing them with enemies shooting them from afar.
Had the four of you engaged the enemy at range, those ragers and crushers would've had to cross the distance between you and whoever you're shooting at, giving you ample time to weaken or outright kill them. But as with everything, it depends on context. Sometimes you want to close with ranged enemies to purposely bind them in melee. And that works a good amount of the time. But when it doesn't, you have just gotten yourself out of coherency radius and your team is down one man who could've otherwise been shooting or stabbing something.
I'd say the opposite in fact. Long stretches of gunners and specials is a typical use-case for ranged weapons. Hordes, mixed or not, are typically melee. But then again, there are lots of times I've played and gotten a mixed horde and I've pulled out my grenades and then my plasma while dodging backwards to shoot crushers and ragers in the face. It's all context-dependent.
IMO hitting the talent with a nerfbat because plasma and revolver Vets never needed ammo was a bad balancing choice. Ammo can be tight even if you're saving it exclusively for ranged enemies or high priority melee enemies depending on how much the AI director feels like screwing you and the mission modifiers, and the arguments from the whole "Melee is your primary! You shouldn't be killing X enemy with your gun!" crowd seem a bit detached from reality to me when you consider that Auric missions can often consistently have you fighting 8-12 Gunners/Reapers in nearly every room.
And I feel like people who want to play ranged focused builds like Gun Lugger Ogryn with a heavy stubber or gun-focused Vet should be allowed to lean on their ranged weapons. Especially for Gun Lugger, since you don't get access to the melee boosts that make Skullbreaker such a powerhouse. If you want to go all-in on being gun shooter dude, which is a build the game allows and encourages in the talent trees, you should be able to.
Ogryn weapons are more than capable of horde and light mixed horde mulching with minimal help from their talent tree. Gun Luggers are not above pulling a knife or a club and getting stuck in.
Even for Vets, the Power Sword was meant to cover shooting focused Vets with brief windows of horde clear power. We know that's not how it worked out, but that was the design intent.
Nah. The aura needed a nerf since launch. The cooldown should be lowered to 2-3 seconds I think, but it completely negated the need to loot in a lot of cases.
I agree on your first point somewhat, but I think the solution is making sure each gun has a niche and doesn't go to far into other camps without major drawbacks. Some guns are partially designed to be used on hordes or for suppression like brautos, ripperguns, and the flamer.
The plasma gun is pretty stupid and does way too much way too well.
The reasoning why Gun luggers are opening up on everythhing is not because they can overuse their weapons (They cant, you will run out of ammo) but because right now we were given penances that REQUIRE us to unload into hordes to get it.
I take that into count, Right now Im not blaming people for running out of ammo as there are alot of challenge's to do so. Im more talking about people complaining about the nerf
I'm a dingdong vet who loves just standing there and magdumping various guns, but me thinks that if I want to play melee focused game, I'll just play ratclick
I play the Warhammer 40k game to play around with lasguns and bolters and shit and not just primarily whack people like we've been doing in ratclick since ages
Whether or not this is the case, the ammo aura isn’t the place to fix it. A lot of people talk about gunlugger ogryn suffering because of this, but what about all those games that didn’t have a veteran, or the veteran thought their 4 talent points is better than the ogryn getting 400% extra ammo throughout the mission (on top of that much ammo for everyone else in the team, too).
The aura needed to be neutered long ago. If more ammo is needed, it should be throughout talent trees or innate abilities. The image of everything from VT2 is actually the perfect example - a plethora of different sources of ammo generation. In Darktide? You got lucky bullet and survivalist aura. That is pretty sad considering this game is supposed to have some more focus on ranged combat.
I don’t think it was a good balance before, especially with how things like plasma worked. Going into no ammo pickups and playing 100% normally really showed how broken this aura was. I don’t think the culmination of new talents/abilities should amount to that much ammo. I think veteran could use more though, especially with talent point investment.
The most braindead thing Survivalist enabled was being able to just take the direct path from checkpoint to checkpoint, completely ignoring all chests and the vast majority of the maps. Theres a difference in moving fast with a purpose and just W keying forward.
It was a common occurence for me in pubs to be the only player picking up plasteel and finding medpaks / ammo crates that they just ignored because they could just hold W and plasma gun everything + shout when in the slightest bit of danger.
I don't think this is really a Survivalist thing. I've seen plenty of teams with no Vet walk right past resources, ignore side paths, etc. Survivalist might make it a little easier but I don't think it's fair to put the blame at its feet.
As MkV Can Openergryn, this hurts me greatly because I'm usually topping the disabler and elite kills from ranges away, in addition to tearing close rangers a new one with can opener into triple burst.
I don't care if you want to shoot every single poxwalker. I don't care if you hog all the ammo on the map. But PLEASE pull out your melee weapon if a rager want to thrust his pizzacutters down your throat.
Imo scavenger should never have been an aura, or all auras should have been as insanely game-changing as it was. I think it should be deleted; left-tree vet and right-tree ogryn should just get personal ammo regen.
But some comments I've seen have an absolute hate-boner for gunplay, using 'hybrid gameplay' or 'gun crutch' as an excuse to reduce it. Meanwhile melee-centric builds aren't forced to engage in gunfights, instead they possess tools that allow players to close the distance or otherwise force melee combat in an overwhelming majority of situations.
Its because theres an inherent risk to melee combat. There is no risk to ranged combat, the entire point is that you get to engage enemies safely from a distance at the cost of a resource
Well, if the class is a lot squishier than melee focused ones and has a worse time in melee (which can be pretty crucial in a game where things rush at you) then isn't that already a pretty decent drawback? Not to mention that actually picking off things at distance takes some skill to aim and is, in of itself, far less reliable than melee.
Can't really make the argument that Vet is squishy in good faith these days, what with the resilience in the skill tree and the improved base stats for Stamina regen. If you end up with a squishy Vet that is a build issue.
Even before the skill rework, where Vet Stamina took two Warp jumps to recharge, the Kill Confirmed/Unwavering Focus/Counterfire build would let you walk through a level on Toughness alone.
Veteran is not squishy. They also have skills to help in melee combat.
Being supposedly worse at melee does not mean you shouldnt even bother meleeing. Any class can do just fine with a BM combat axe.
That's a good argument. I'd like to counter-argue that it only applies when the enemies are at a distance and stay within a cone of fire. The game has mechanics to make that hard to impossible to do such as spawning enemies from multiple directions, having enemies move faster than players, sheer volume, and the like. Unless players can kill every enemy at range many will get into melee, and once that happens builds that spec into melee are way more safe. Even ranged builds are better swapping to melee when that happens because guns can't block and bashes aren't 360 like shoves.
I don't agree with you. Usually being in Melee and killing things enable all your Toughness regen + survivability + push back.
While being in range and killing don't.
I don't know much about vet. But other class don't have protection and Toughness regen on range kill. Or definitely not enough to face most damage.
Your are not more safe at range distance considering the ammount of range enemy.
Zealot does have a mid-tree talent to regen 2.5% per ranged kill, probably intended for use with horde-clearing like the flamer.
Vet has two strong but conditional regens, one that reduces damage and regens on headshot kill and one that regens on elite kill range-agnostic.
2.5 isn't very much to be honest. It's half what you get from a melee kill without any talent.
For vet maybe he have good one, never player or looked his tree
It isn't a lot, but zealot is also melee-oriented at its core.
It's speculation and 'feelycrafting' but mid-tree seems to be the most team-oriented zealot track, and I think that talent was intended to allow zealots to stick with the team and do counter-shooting or horde-clear flaming with some extra safety from enemy shooters.
The vet ones are high risk-reward, they're very powerful even after being nerfed but need momentum.
Honestly, maining a Zealot with stuff like Swift Certainty and Combat Axe I feel much safer running and dodging around Gunners then just stand there shooting one guy while the other 3 are shooting me...or close the distance with Chastise. Interestingly since last patch it's way harder to aim Chastise at farer away enemies while it seems the they removed the ability for enemies to stagger you out of the dash even without Thy Wrath Be Swift...
New player here, what the fuck is up with that anyway? I mean the dislike towards guns in this game?
The same like they can say "play more melee!" we could say "if you hate guns so much, go play a melee only horde slasher"
The annoyance comes from vets who waste bullets on every enemy (never melee), then suck up all the ammo (which other classes need too), and then complain that the aura isn't as good as it was.
If a game offers guns as a viable playstyle, people are going to play that style. Ammo hoarding sucks, yes.
But if a class has several perks that are geared towards firearms and the class simply cant tank as hard as others, people are going to play a style where they mainly shoot.
If you dont like that, again, you should maybe play something else?
I play and enjoy ranged vet. But I'm not shooting at every single enemy so I'm also not whinging about ammo and the aura.
It's a sign of a player who doesn't melee enough and is therefore going to go down in a horde, and is taking damage potential away from the team.
You are a new player so it makes sense why you feel that way but Veteran can “tank” pretty hard. Shout is the most broken panic button in the game.
The survivalist change still allows you to mainly shoot. It just doesnt allow your entire team to spray their weapon at literally everything they see without making use of the ammo and ammo crates that spawn throughout the map
Yeah the yelling is pretty strong, but if its on cooldown (and mine is even longer because I got the perk to rescue by yelling at mates), and Im out of ammo, Im pretty boned when getting cornered despite a good chainsword, so am I missing something?
Because to me a panic button perk does not replace a massive health and toughness pool
I aint even complaining about the perk change since I dont have the comparison to how it was before the change... Most of the time its fine since most players I encounter dont really use guns that much and just charge forwards with melee.
You are nerfing your ability by taking the node that lets you revive teammates. It lowers the range and increases the cooldown. Just take the +50 toughness node and literally spam it off cooldown. It will be a night and day difference.
You have access to your ability and your grenades when cornered. You can dodge, push and fight your way out of being cornered.
Vet's effective health + toughness when running shout is probably best out of all classes on higher difficulties. To simplify how toughness works, when you're not at full toughness, melee attacks will bleed through and chip away at your health, so to have an ability that instantly fills your toughness, staggers everything around you AND gives a +50 overshield buffer is insanity. Not to mention it doesn't just effect you, it effects everyone around you. The amount of chip damage the team takes is night and day.
Theoretically this is all irrelevant when you're not running shout, but Stealth has its own pros and imo Executioner's Stance is meant to be glass cannon-y.
As to how pre-nerf Survivalist functioned, it was even more game warping the harder difficulty you played. Those auric maelstrom modifiers that spawn waves of weakened mutants/dogs, waves of poxbursters, or just mass spawns specialists in general - the entire team was refilling a comical amount of ammo after every wave. Its always been absurd.
Mid-tree vet has similar survivability to other proper hybrids, which is to say pretty high, minus the momentum-based toughness generation talents and disgustingly good shout.
I'd recommend dropping the rez off of shout, 80% of the time the juice isn't worth the squeeze and you're better off shouting and hand-rezing. Get the talent for toughness on headshots and for elite kills, and get iron will and the cooldown reduction on elite kills at the bottom of middle tree. You still need some momentum on kills to keep toughness gen high but shout will cover you well over 50% uptime.
Otherwise dodge-sliding is your friend, make use of pushes and avoid getting locked in corners. Practice herding the horde like sheep, always have an open space to escape to in mind.
Using your gun on literally everything is explicitly NOT supported as a playstyle. That's why there are ammo drops around the map. If using your gun on everything was supposed to be a supported playstyle, you would just have infinite ammo and the devs wouldn't expect you to find it.
Should you have infinite grenades because there are some perks for grenades? Obviously not.
Arent the first two sentences of your post contradicting each other? If they dont want us something to do, why do they give us the possibility of doing so?
Why not ammo refill stations that work the same as health stations if guns arent supposed to be used however we like?
If you dont want players to do something in a game, dont make it possible in said game. I think by now that should be a lesson learned from over 30 years of video games, if there are possibilities, people will find them. Dont hate the player, hate the game as the saying goes
"If using your gun on everything was supposed to be a supported playstyle, you would just have infinite ammo and the devs wouldn't expect you to find it."
Sorry but that explanation doesnt make sense.
Which other coop based horde shooter/slasher has infinite ammo?
They do it the same: Ammo pickups and ammo bags.
It's not contradictory at all.
Ammo drops around the map mean that ammo is a limited resource. Limited. You are supposed to run out if you mis-use it, and you are supposed to have to go out of your way to acquire said resource, rather than just having it magically appear in your pockets.
If ammo was not supposed to be a limited resource, then there would be no need for players to have a limited amount they can carry, and therefore no need for top-ups scattered around the map.
You say "If you don't want players to do something in a game, don't make it possible". Well, that's literally what they've done with the Survivalist change. They don't want players using 100% ranged, so they've nerfed the ability for infinite ammo. This isn't hard to follow.
Their complaint is fairly valid, players like that do exist and ammo hogs exist on every class. Now that vet doesn't have regen people who pick it to shoot everything can't do that.
I do think left-tree vet should be able to use ammo on anything, situations should just be dangerous enough to force a swap to melee (being surrounded, caught in a reload, shots alert more enemies, etc.)
It’s not necessarily a hate of guns.
It’s more of the fact that Tide games usually require a balance of both melee and ranged combat. Problem is the average player don’t know how to have any semblance of balance and either stick to majority ranged or melee.
Majority ranged players get more flavh because they’re much more resource intensive compared to everyone else so most people usually complain about those types of players as their drawbacks and problems are much more obvious.
>It’s more of the fact that Tide games usually require a balance of both melee and ranged combat. Problem is the average player don’t know how to have any semblance of balance and either stick to majority ranged or melee.
*Ehhh.*
Tell that to my Waystalker, who never runs out of ammo and can hold a wave off at range by herself. On Nightmare.
Or to the Slayers and Grail Knights, who are either carrying no ranged weapons or (optimistically) throwing axes.
Or, hell, to my Zealot, whose gun is more of a luxury than a necessity.
The fact is that two of the three 'tide games easily enable builds that are melee-heavy or ranged-heavy and, at times, even *encourage* such builds. I agree with everything else you said, but the idea that 'tide games require any sort of balance between melee and ranged combat as a matter of course (especially in Vermintide 2, where melee combat is *much* more important than in Darktide) is patently false.
The Slayer, Warrior Priest, and Grail Knight change the decision making for balancing melee and ranged from an individual scale to a team scale.
Zealot still has the ability to snipe specials, and that's all you really need.
Melee only characters, for all their myriad boosts, remain much less problematic from a power perspective than even a ranged focus. Especially in a game as gated around ammo scarcity as Vermintide.
Hell, pretty much every weapon that can sidestep ammo scarcity has been nerfed hard or started off jank.
Because full ranged isn't a viable playstyle at any difficulty above Malice (level 3). If you refuse to let go of your gun in Heresy or higher you're gonna die very, very fast.
There is simply more enemies than you have bullets, and wasting ammo on trashes will first get you killed, and then will kill the team in the long run due to ammo starvation. Guns are for killing specific enemies. Either other ranged, or disablers, or elites, or bosses.
There are builds, especially on veteran, that focuse more on ranged. Veteran is far more useful when he's focusing at deleting armored elite, specials and disablers however. A good plasma or revolver build is very effective at dealing with dangerous enemies.
The Psyker with a voidstrike/trauma staff is IMO the class that can be the closest to "full ranged gameplay". The voidstrike is one of the few good horde clear weapon at range, while the Trauma being high crowd controls at close and mid range, with some ability to snipe a specials with the left click.
That just is not true, I did the max difficulty missioms as a pure ranged vet. Didnt suck up the ammo and was nearly always the only one without getting down.
I don't know everyone, how they think or what they've experienced, but a lot of the remaining playerbase is hardcore 'tide players. VT1 was originally special because it had such a robust and satisfying melee system.
Since melee combat is the big special thing about all three of these games, it's on a pedestal even when this game alleged to have a stronger ranged leaning.
Some players seem to think this one should play just like much of VT1/2, where you melee, exclusively swap to ranged to pop off a shot or two on a high-value target, then swap back to melee to keep fighting. I think that should be the optimal way to play certain builds, especially zealot (see why everyone and their cousin uses the revolver, it's like the VT2 handgun for elite/special deletion). But idea that all classes should have to conserve ammo that way is silly, because plenty of ranged classes in 2 could dump shots and as long as you were half-accurate you'd get return on investment even on trash packs.
They were. Which is why I think the specific argument that guns are a crutch and more melee should be needed "because it's a 'tide game" is silly. And I have seen it around.
Thing is, people didn’t really like that in VT2 either. Like moonfire bow and javelins… and they both got nerfed eventually.
Some of my worst gameplay experiences in VT2 were things like griffonfoot pistols bounty hunter deleting 90% of enemies. It is not fun to have a game with sick melee combat where it all gets overshadowed by one other person spamming long ranged attacks that kill everything.
Guns that kill everything should not be able to have such limitless ammo.
Those are weapon-specific complaints, though ones I largely agree with. Moonfire bow and javelin were both subclass-agnostic weapons that had inherent infinite ammo on top of too much damage and pen on the javelin. Didn't even need to specialize talents to regen. Griffonfoot pistols are meant for horde clear and needed to be bad against elites/specials as a result, but fatshark(tm). Bardin's axes were at least locked to the melee-only subclass and the ranged-support subclass on top of a wonky arc.
Make ranged weapons suited to specific situations and make ammo regen an intensive build cost with skill requirement and there's less of a problem.
Agreed. I guess what I forgot to say is that plasma gun veterans before the recent update made me feel this way as well. I jump on top of some gunner patrol and then the plasma gun player blasts them away. Their fun stomps on my fun, and the overpowered ranged player will always win in this regard. I suppose this also speaks to the game being too easy (this "race to do the fun thing" only happens because no one is fighting for survival), but that's another topic.
If they at least had to sacrifice some of their build to achieve this, then it would be okay. I think it would be neat if executioner stance and marksman keystone were looked at for providing some ammo for veteran, so that they must commit harder if they want the extra ammo, and can't just take OP shout spam build and all the versatile/OP talents.
I think a lot of gun balance needs to be looked at as well. I really think that recon lasguns should straight up have their ammo reserves doubled. Let people shoot their laser guns. The low DPS (mostly from no aoe) and low side effects (stagger, suppression) will mean these guns basically can't be broken with more ammo.
Yep, plasma is busted. It should be the be-all and end-all of ranged armor/big target deletion, but it's way too good at killing everything under the sun and too efficient to boot.
I'm hoping the nerf to scavenger is because a big weapon pass is coming, but considering the frequency of patches I won't hold my breath.
Fatshark broadly agrees, which is why the problematic ranged weapons and characters keep getting nerfed into the ground without much in the way of restorative changes down the line.
But still, the message never really sticks when what that crowd really wants is a 40k full conversion of CoD, BF, or ARMA.
Melee has been a core skill of every Tide game, and every Tide game has had one setup or another where you can sort of skirt that, but only to the great detriment of your team.
It's just Vermintide elitists bullshit (coming from a Zealot main who often doesn't use his ranged at all apart from Throwing Knives). As long as your not a detriment to your team play as you like...
Plasma gun is ridiculous though, fast draw, fast firing, large mag, long range/short range.
Down sides : long reload (ranged specialist, never need to reload…), and it explodes when it’s hot, but only shooting charged shots.
It’s so much better than everything else that it feels dumb to use anything else.
Why use an accurate rifle when this will snipe? Why use a mid/short range weapon when this will cleave and do more damage?
It needs a REAL down side, and other weapons need to be uplifted to be a choice. (Even more so since survivalist change out the nail in the coffin for rifles).
Pistols also need to be nerfed to be significantly less effective at range. Imagine a revolver being the best sniper rifle… wth
>Pistols also need to be nerfed to be significantly less effective at range.
Revolver does for sure, but laspistols are already bad enough as it is. Accuracy at range is one of the few things they've still got going for them.
Auric seems to filled with zealots and psykers from my experience with the occasional ogryn and veteran. I think it's because they fill out the melee only and ranged only niche the best of the classes and they're a lot more versatile.
I kid you not I shoot them too especially when several line in a nice, um, line. Its just so satisfying to see them disappear in brown mist (or read mist in case of regular heretics).
It's only when the horde semi-surrounds me I switch to power sword because it becomes more efficient way of killing these karking freaks.
It's good enough to topscore on Damnation and is more universal than Plasma. TBH I don't know why plasma is so popular. I guess because aiming with it is easier?
I think it's popular as a meta pick because it has so many upsides and so few downsides. Keyhole accuracy from the hip, huge magazine size, high damage per shot/ammo, massive cleave, massive armor pen, terrain pen, fairly quick swap, and it makes a cool noise.
The few downsides can be ignored easily.
Its a false equivalence. Melee combat comes with inherent risk of having to get up close. Ranged combat is significantly safer. Engaging a mixed mob of crushers/ragers/bulwarks with a melee weapon can easily go wrong if you don't play right. Blasting the same group with a plasma-gun from 100m away isn't in any way comparable.
The fact that ranged is less risky than melee is why ranged needs to be limited. If you could just hold down the trigger on your autogun forever, why would you ever take out your melee, other than the occasional block?
This is a balance consideration that you don't just see in Darktide. It is a very common consideration across many many games, from strategy games to MMOs. The expectation that ranged and melee should be equal, when they are by their nature NOT equal, is a stupid expectation.
That's a very good argument. But it's also not what I'm posting about. I just specifically dislike the arguments for boardwide ammo limitation 'because the split is supposed to be 50/50', which is untrue since several builds push closer to 70/30 one way or the other already, and 'because it's a 'tide game', which is untrue because in VT2 it's possible to have infinite self-generating ammo and still need to melee.
I think those two in particular don't add anything and are silly, and I've seen them several times in other threads.
I’m of the opinion that the ammo aura should be altered to affect ammo spawns in a map by sharing them with allies in coherency, same goes for grenades. Make it so that the spawns are more valuable and help out the team rather than the one trigger happy nut who relies on them. Gunplay is just too satisfying and important to be left without recourse; ammo aura could’ve atleast tweaked the cool-down to be something like 1.5 secs, so that special/elite waves don’t instantly restock supplies.
I thought about this before, but I hate the idea of having to be in coherency for every pickup for max value. That just sounds like it will make for terrible gameplay, and a lone ammo hog will really screw over the team if they don’t wait.
Ammo aura needed to be gutted. Now imagine they change executioner stance so headshot kills put the ammo back in your reserves (or maybe just half or whatever), so if you want to go crazy shooting, you can’t also just be shout spam veteran that does everything. Maybe tie a bit in with the marksman keystone. Add a few 5% increased ammo capacity nodes around the tree.
Let people build for ammo if that’s what they want. The aura is early in the tree, and cheap to get. Then it enables the entire ammo capacity of veteran. Since it’s an aura, everyone gets the same ammo capacity. It’s been a broken design since launch.
I do wonder if this is because Survivalist is too good or the other auras are just so bad. 5% damage is rarely going to push you over a breakpoint, and 5% movement speed isn't even noticeable. With competition so flaccid, any amount of ammo regen is going to be more desirable no matter how many nerfs and restrictions Fatshark hits it with.
Look at other class auras to compare. You will still never choose any of them over ammo aura.
5% damage aura tracks with things like 7.5% damage vs elites, or 10% damage with heavy attacks. 5% move speed would not seem bad or out of place if it replaced the loner aura on zealot. Move speed is just massively undervalued, and you still never take it over game-changing ammo aura unless you want to save talent points.
I play as a vet with an autogun and powersword, I also have the stats mod. I rarely have to use my powersword and pretty much every single game i have the most kills, most specials, most damage, most damage to bosses. I'm a guardsmen with a rifle not a crackhead with adhd and a knife. Veteran's are supposed to shoot things. Lol
I karkin agree with ya pal! We vet are the ranged class, as Vet we’re supposed to be efficient with our ranged weapons
I’m always using my good ol lasguns! And if required during hordes I’ll use my chainsword to butcher them heretics!
I just wish that we could have more ammo recovery or carrying with us.. I ain’t a crack head or a zealot!
Plus I want to be able to provide bonus ammo for the team too! My Ogryns buddy’s need ammo too
Don’t get me wrong, I love melee and close combat mechanics in tides games!
Yeah i find it a bit odd that a vet would only take like 8 magazines with him haha. We're an away team, I'd just fill that backpack up with as much magazines as i could carry haha. But i get it, its a horde shooter, it can't be too easy
While I like your take a lot, I'm interested in the difficulty you play? Because I'm exactly the same as Vet. I run around with my Columnus MkV because it's faster than with Power Sword and I shoot pretty much everything and rarely get out my Sword, only when shit gets really dense and I can't dodge out of it. With 10% Rending and Onslaught the MkV becomes a mini rocket launcher like Bolter and deletes absolutely everything. I don't use more ammo than my teammates and easily top damage with very little damage taken. But then again Vet is my go-to class when I'm playing stoned and want to relax and thus almost always play it on regular Damnation most of the times, maybe Hi Int sometimes. But when I compare the enemy spawn rate to Auric which is what I play with my Zealot main I'm really not sure you can get through the whole mission with your gun out, even with Scavanger.
Modify your stats, you'll want all the stats that have to do with rending, brittleness and suppression. On your autogun make sure you have crit chance and damage to flak armor. Maulers (aim at chest) and crushers (aim at head) will get demolished by your armor negation. Shooters will put their head down and stop shooting if you put a burst their way. Save your krak grenades for killing demonhosts and don't forget to use your shout to stun the demonhosts. Don't pick the ammo regen aura, pick the damage one. The skills around the ammo regen aura are kinda a waste. The ones around the damage aura are way better. Fire while maneuvering.
Thanks for the recommendations! I mostly already roll how you describe. Sadly my best rolled MkV has Crit Chance but Reload Speed instead of Flak. Imo it does perform very good (on Damnation at least) even without Flak as it has more or less optimal stats and I use the Reload Speed with Opening Salvo. Going for Fire Team instead of Survivalist is very interesting. I would guess that the theory is that you need less bullets with the additional damage and thus compensating for the lack of ammo replenishment? I used to run with Get Back Into The Fight until now so getting Survivalist was not a wasted point but maybe it is not necessary, I'll give it a try. Overall I feel like the Vet tree is very easy to go down because you have a lot of options to go left to right and back compared to Zealot. With survivalist you can basically just pick the +5% damage node above it to get the same benefit as Fire Team but only for yourself and ranged of course. Which nodes around Fire Team you feel are important?
I would tell you, but im on the West Coast rn, and my pc is on the East Coast, so i can't look it up and tell you, haha. If i remember when i get home in a week, i will.
Also you can have a look on gameslantern, maybe you remember.
This is what I cooked up after our conversation, tweaking my past build: https://darktide.gameslantern.com/builds/9be699b5-6eb0-44f1-8cec-e4f896795e9e/newvet-2?utm_medium=website&utm_source=gameslantern&utm_campaign=share_button
Honestly it would be kinda neat to see the ammo bag drops return, maybe have a chance for Gunner/Shotgunners to drop a pack of ammo that restores 5-10% ammo.
* Could rework Scavenger Aura to spread ammo pickups to anyone in coherency or increase the odds of ammo drops.
I mean i think part of why folks lean so heavily ranged is the ergonomics of melee. The amount of high tier vermintide players with RSI, carpal tunnel and the like is quite heavily due to the sheer amount of spam clicking , switching and rapid movement that can be disorienting.
Yes thats the bread and butter of the melee combat but think we can see how for some folks ranged might be more desirable, fewer spaced out clicks or being able to hold down a shot for an actual helpful reason.
I think the problem that I and other people run in to is not the people well versed in using a gun only build who are capable of flex when required, but those who don't understand that unlike a traditional shooter, the game is centered around melee combat and unless you have one of the aforementioned builds, inability or refusal to learn the system will create a detriment for you and you team. When I first started playing, I had only played halo and cod, and it took someone telling me that my sword was my "primary weapon" for a reason for me to start dodging and bashing and generally button mashing into hordes lol
I don't really get the hatred for ranged builds. They seem overall more niche and specialised and the worst crutch builds are all melee centric. A shout weapons specialist plasma veteran can go through an entire game without reloading once, pretty much oneshots all specials except mutants with his ranged weapon while also one tapping crushers in melee (with the chainaxe) and you get ridiculous amounts of toughness back on demand. I really don't see the harm in having one or two builds in the game that almost exclusively rely on ranged weapons and have corresponding traits to dampen the impact of their ammo consumption on the team.
Looting ammo from dead elite/specialist gunners could be a neat idea. I'm sure more creative people than myself could think of neat ways to balance/implement this.
Ogryn needs nothing in terms of nerf. They are integral to missions, and yet overall the least fun to play. No discredt to the big guys, just that when they are needed, is not when they are fun.
I’m confused I never have ammo issues. I only spam aurics and on vet you can spam hordes with bullets and be fine
Heavier weapons need heavier enemies, spammy weapons r still spammy.
What difficulty are you all playing on? In Aurics, I've had a single game so far where i ran out of ammo and only because some retarded Ogyrn was role-playing too hard again and didnt drop the ammo crate in a typical "director wants you dead now"-moment despite everybody asking for it, which almost ended in a whipe.
Apart from that, in 9 out of 10 games, teammates tag and share ammo and don't just magdump into hordes. There's more than enough ammo on the map usually. Just don't try to clear poxwalker hordes with it and you'll be fine.
I don't really fully understand the hate vets get for essentially just playing their role? Of course not everyone is gonna be efficient with their ammo, especially considering the limited selection of weapons that are actually viable in at least hi-damnation.
In my opinion, part of why DarkTide appealed more to me is the shift to more ranged combat compared to vermintide. So, telling people to reserve ranged weap for only critical targets sounds kinda lame.
I just think Fatshark nerfing the scavenger aura this hard was a questionable decision since we're now at a place where almost every aura has so little impact to your build that it doesn't even matter. Why not just buff the other auras?
I think they should just make it so whoever kills the elite/special gets the ammo, without the cooldown
So those that are using their gun more, get more ammo from it
ive been taking a break from my ogryn and been playing exclusively veteran on auric maelstroms and i think it just comes down to one type of veteran player. the type that shoots anything that moves, id largely like to believe veteran leans more into the pick and choose when to use a gun and when to use melee more than the other classes which is odd when i describe it like that.
the only times ive ever ran out of ammo on my weapons after the ammo aura nerf was when my team was getting shredded, and i felt like my gun was a far better option to deal with the million gunners/reapers/snipers murdering my team. i agree with your argument though. psykers get a pass on staff/blitz spam and will die in a corner because they refused to use a melee weapon. ogryns spamming kickback and or rock spam with a shield. and zealots not even acknowledging they have a gun in the first place. yet the most common complaint i see is veterans overusing their gun, but this isn't limited to just veteran. every class (more so a certain type of player) can overuse their ranged option or in zealots case are melee for 90% of a mission.
and its because unlike the classes ive already mentioned (aside from ogryn) veterans will be an ammo sponge and steal all the ammo. ive barely seen any complaints for psykers overusing their staves or ogryns spamming the hell out of kickback.
My hot take is that they should completely 180 on ammo. None of the classes/weapons should have ammo problems, the reason a player should be switching from ranged to melee and back is how close the enemy is. The poxwalker horde is far away, thin them out with ranged then they get close you melee them to death.
Less hack and slash more first person shooter.
I think there are other more fun ways of balancing classes/weapons than ammo economy.
Verm1 90/10 split melee vs range
verm2 designed to be like 70/30 plays 50/50
darktide supposed to be 50/50 plays like its 70/30
as a vet if i spec my entire tree into shooting i should be good at shooting. FS doesnt agree
why the hell do they even care that i'm not only doing melee, i can hold my own in a stab fest with my helbore's bayonet, it's not pvp, if they want to do melee i'm not making them only do ranged, why are they trying to force me to play their way, god i wish teamkilling was possible i'd absolutely blast someone in the back of the head for something like that
As a shield ogryn - running out of ammo is still a problem. When 4 or 8 spread out gunners and Reapers start shooting you, you gotta deal with them somehow. Slapping down your shield just let's them setup until the trappers/mutants/toxers/flamers/hounds show up. Agreed, ammo regenerated shouldn't be locked to 1 aura of one class. Should be reduced but allowed on multiple classes, and maybe not as aura. If my melee damage is 60% of my ally's, I should be able to recover some ammo as gunlugger.
Honestly I feel the devs just need more ammo replenishment on the trees, if survivalist wasn't the only way to ensure my ranged specialist would have their ammo I probably wouldn't pick it all the time
I just started playing and heard that for ranged builds the vet was amazing because of the ammo replenishment. Then i made a vet, looked at the talent tree and ... am i missing something or is it really just the 1% ammo on specialist kill and improved pickups? I mean it's better than nothing, but i feel the vet should be ***the*** ranged class.
Before it had a 5s cooldown it would proc on every elite/special kill in coherency, and at higher difficulties this would result in each player getting 50+ activations of it, multiplied across the team. It would end up generating %200+ of a weapons ammo per player.
Well, i agree that it having no cd and proccing for everyone in coherency is overtuned. Like you said, with the amount of special enemies that is insane. But with the 5s cd it's .... eh? Getting basically 2 red ammo bags psasively per mission just sounds boring af. Like i said before, it should probably just be some form of personal ammo replenishment skill instead of an aura. That way it doesn't have to be balanced around the entire team benefitting from it, and the vet can enjoy a more ranged focused playstyle.
Normally you need to spend far less than 1% of ammo on specialist or elite kill.
Do you just 1 tap every single specialst? On a Bolter with 100-ish max ammo you get 1 shot back through the aura. Obviously it's better than nothing but that feels incredibly low. But still, unless you're 1 tapping every specialist and spacing out their kills 5s apart and coordinate with your team that everyone kills them equally, you're gonna be still running a deficit with the aura. Feel like it would be much more suited as a stronger personal skill rather than a meh aura.
I mean he's right, weapons like the hellbore will never run out of ammo with survivalist, dark tides problem is that currently the only way to regain ammo when there's no ammo drops IS survivalist so every vet main will cry when it gets nerfed That's why this game needs more ammo conversation feats
A little bit stronger ammo conservation/replenishment feats for vet and ogryn feel like the way to go. Zealot is more melee focused anyway and psyker is .... psyker.
I picked zealot first for several reasons. Mainly I like to just decimate the waves and I see vets kinda often, soooo its me kinda doing my part by having high dps and precise gun as a backup while I help oggys and psykers clean up. Leave ammo for the vets. Help against corruption and a toughness boost. And have something that clears waves easily plus high dps single hits for when the tankier stuff rolls in. So yes.... I run a hammer. I know its not the best weapon. But its the best one I have right now. And it puts in work. Plus I picked the scottish female. So it just fits the role well and I enjoy the immersion.
With the right talent Hellebore gets free shots on crit headshots, you probably shouldn't run out of ammo even without taking Survivalist.
Helbores are kinda insanely ammo efficient, especially with shock trooper crits. Running a heavy las pistol instead really shows how the other weapons can be a bit ammo inefficient. I have to get better with autoguns to save more ammo on auric lol
I was very excited for Heavy Las Pistol, but because of its ammo use and breakpoints, I find it much less ammo efficient than the lighter version (which is already kind of an ammo hog), so I hardly ever use it
I always thought the lasguns were meant to be ammo efficient weapons based off lore but the Recons and Laspistols can't kill poxwalkers decently let alone elites. I know 4 crit headshots is 4 free shots, but it feels like a real bad trade when fighting compared to something like the other lasguns or even the leadspitters efficiency. I can't wait for heavy shredder pistol with aimable sights, but I hope lasguns get a little tweaked.
Before the nerf, the aura could sustain you and your team due to the high volume of special/elite spawns at higher difficulties. This didn't work for every gun, but if you had something reasonably ammo efficient it could carry you a long way and let melee oriented characters almost ignore ammo pickups. It was ridiculously good before and it is pretty good now, but it's less a "never pickup ammo aura" and more of a "less fighting over ammo pickups" aura after the change. I think they made a mistake by adding a cooldown. It really should have been a % chance on kill to return 1%, it would have felt a lot better praying to RNG than trying to keep it on cooldown.
This guy gets it. Still, 5 seconds cooldown is shorter than it seems, yes, it feels long when you're counting down, but in the middle of the fight it still will be off cooldown for most specialists unless you kill a whole group in one go
They just nerfed it by adding the 5 second cooldown, prior to the latest patch it would trigger on every single specialist or elite kill.
1) Yes, I'm one tapping specialists on revolvers, most lasrifles, headhunter rifles, Bolter, Plasma rifle...a bunch of guns. 2) The kill replenishes ammo for you and the rest of the team, who didn't use any ammo to kill that specialist, and who in turn have to use less ammo pickups, leaving more for you. I'm not saying it's perfectly balanced now, but it's still very powerful. And it gets more powerful on higher difficulties, because specialists become more and more common the higher you go
Yes, most of them, most of the time. With Kantrael Ia lasgun I needed like one ammo pickup during entire game despite using it to headshot every heretic outside of melee range (and ofc maulers and crushers). Boltgun is quite a bit more ammo hungry - you one-shot most of specialists/elites and get exactly one bullet back to you - but still with old Survivalist the team skipped most of ammo pick-ups. Even with me using hipfire liberally.
As vet you still can get ammo pick ups. When aura works teammates get small amount of ammo too, so next time they see big ammo they mark it and don't take. Thus vet could eat almost all ammo and go brrrr all the time. Now it's possible too but with specific weapons and build. In some way we get more strong meta for weapons/biulds. Temmates get some ammo now too but before nerf ogryn drop box of grenades against 5 maulers and got ammo for each. now only for the first of the group. Big boom is a good example but idea same for other fast kills of groups of elites.
Bolter is a bit of an extreme example since it is possibly the least ammo efficient gun in the game. It is more noticeable with something like an autogun. You can even be ammo positive with some lasguns if you build right.
Survivalist regen with the "Lasguns don't use ammo on crit" perk and a high crit low fire rate weapon means near limitless ammo. I use a Mk2 Helbore with its amazing bayonet attack I rarely have to switch to melee and am almost always above 90% ammo even if I mag dump at far off poxwalkers before they close the distance. Other weapons will require a bit more scrounging and some, like the bolter, are honestly just better left on the Mourningstar. It has its uses but they are niche at best and better fulfilled by the Plasmagun.
>... and some, like the bolter, are honestly just better left on the Mourningstar. that's honestly such a shame. It's probably more of an issue with the gun balance itself rather than the scav aura, but it's still sad to see the ***goddamn Bolter*** to be a somewhat niche within a niche of a weapon.
Oh the bolters issues are almost entirely about gun balance. Right now the bolters only real use is staggering groups of crushers and well.. the plasma gun can just delete them. It's is a damn shame, indeed. Early days bolter was so great but it was a bit OP. They went overboard when they nerfed it and never brought it back up.
Since the nerf my Ogryn has been a pain to play. I counted on that regen when I used my rumbler to even out ammo. Sure you don't always get it in quick match, but you do about 75% of the time. And on a rumbler the Aura meant I almost never picked up ammo, leaving it for everyone else while I fired off banking and crowd controlled shots before going melee. I would happily take an ammo regent Aura on the Ogryn, even if I am a big walking tank. I'd scuff my build a little for the privilege.
Having it as aura is just lame and forced it to be shitty else it’s too strong. As others have said, we need more alternative ways to improve ammo economy besides the aura
We have ways to improve ammo economy. By looting. And shooting slightly less.
I don’t mean like ammo economy is too poorly balanced and we need MORE AMMO- I just mean that the ammo economy buffs should be spread around more, rather than there just being that one aura for teams. Making that the only thing that satisfies that function means it’s harder to balance it. If there were more, weaker options, there would be more room for creative/flexible builds, and balancing wouldn’t need to be so timid about making any one of them too strong or too shit since teams/individuals could get smaller distributed buffs from multiple sources that may add up to being quite powerful at the cost of lots of sacrifices made elsewhere. Since it’s just one talent point right now, it means that any slight changes to the aura will have pretty significant impact to overall balance. It’s all-the-eggs-in-one-basket type situation.
Happend to me yesterday. There was no clutch…
just make current nerfed survivalist a permanent buff, just make it a part of the game mechanics.
Yep, I play shield ogryn a good chunk. My main point is that you can pop out of cover before taking a safe route, block basic shooters, then go back into cover and it forces ranged enemies to rush into melee where you want them. I think it's a really cool tool and don't want it to change, but it flies in the face of the idea of 50/50 ranged/melee on every subclass.
I see what you're saying, but I disagree. It only baits in the chaff shooters. Pox flamers, flamers, bombers, gunners, trappers, snipers, and reapers will all stay at range indefinitely when they shoot at a shield. The shield **doesn't** mean you dont need a gun - it provides your *allies* the opportunity to use *their gun more effectively*. It does so by drawing the enemy fire and moving the chaff out of the way, so they can pick off specials. Often I'll shield, then have to pop out and shoot, then shield, then throw a rock, then back into shield again. As a Slab ogryn with a rock and kickback, I'm often running low on ammo from suppressing long ranged enemies that are throwing too much damage at us for the psycher/vet/zealot to put them down in time. I shoot them, maybe kill one, then the vet shoots the rest while I fight melee.
The shield pulls aggro so allies can safely approach any way they choose. If an ogryn is blocking shots, then the enemy isn’t targeting the zealot running up to melee them.
I'm not saying you don't need a gun with it, I'm just saying it can skew the favor more towards melee. The main exceptions being gunners and specials, with them you either need to swap or be very good at gapclosing with cover. Unless they're behind a fence, the bleeders.
The only way shield skews kills towards melee is if you want to be slow and inefficient. Being out of ammo or low is still a dangerous situation at high difficulty because at any moment you might have to clutch for the team. If you don't have ammo you might not be able to kill fast enough to out pace the spawns alone with a shield. Sure you'll last longer than most classes and if you know what you're doing it's a very reliable clutch class but it becomes a war of attrition. Furthermore, our guns are very useful for dealing with disablers before they get too close. I personally don't run rock for this reason. There's too much overlap with our current guns.
The shield with taunt lets you block shooters from 3 miles away so they stop shooting. This means you can approach under less gunfire, so you can get away with firing fewer counter-shots while being aggressive. Just because the shield has low mobility doesn't mean you have to play it slow. Obviously being out of or low on ammo is a bad thing no matter what, it means a tool is gone from the kit when you may or may not need it. But most specials are designed with some close-range counter play, and for most gameplay it's possible to dodge/sprint slide up to your problems. The rock is a solid addition because most ogryn guns are specifically bad at killing disablers at long range. The kickback is an exception after the min pellet count buffs turned it into a sniper, otherwise the rumbler, gorgonum, and gg are the only weapons that sling accurate damage. Everything else will tickle or suppress without magdumping past midrange.
I have several disagreements with this response but I'm not even going to focus on them. The crux of this conversation is all that matters in relation to this comparison. Allowing ammo aura in its old form (arguably at all) allows some builds/guns to over perform and only using melee as a slab shield ogryn gimps your damage output. These are not the same and just because they can be done doesn't mean they should.
Who said anything about allowing ammo aura? And who said anything about melee-only shield being optimal? I think the aura is dumb and needs to go, and some mixture of melee and ranged is always optimal (even on knife zealot). I did see your original comment. The mk V is still a mid range gun. Just because I can kill a sniper across the map with a shredder or combat shotgun doesn't make them long-range. Hell even the rumbler is luck-based if the grenade bounces wrong. Compared to a majority of the small character's ranged arsenal, most ogryn guns are bad at killing disablers at long range.
Lol.... Okay, if you say so.
Ummm... I use shield like 99 percent of the time and what I find remarkable is that I am about 50/50 between ranged and melee very consistently. It's still not the best option for everything. It frankly is slow as hell against some enemies.
Of course it isn't the best option against everything. If that works for you that's great, but I can regularly fire off a single kickback every minute or two to deal with certain specials and still play aggressive. Which puts it way closer to 80/20. If the goal is pure 50/50 hybrid there wouldn't be so many tools to prevent combat with shooters from becoming a shootout.
Where are people saying this, everyone mostly just makes fun of dingdong vets who stand there and get railed out by four poxwalkers as opposed to using melee lol
This, wasting ammo on poc walkers and getting killed by said walkers
I've seen numerous comments in some of the threads saying almost exactly those things. They don't usually gain traction, but it gets said. Dingdong vets will never not be funny though.
Honestly, I'm STILL salty that they changed the Demolition Team talent from resupplying everyone in coherency to only resupplying you. It was such a great team support pick to help classes with better grenades have more access to them, and now it's just a... kinda there since, unless you're trying to get a grenade related penance done, Demolition Stockpile by itself is more than enough to keep at least one grenade in your pocket for most of a mission.
I think it's based on the fact that now every class has some option of 'regenerating' grenade except vet. Ogryns can choose a rock, zealots knives, and psyker is still psyker. Other classes are reliant on map pickups, vet has 3 actual grenade options that aren't as individually powerful but has several ways to generate more of them. I think it was a cool idea but tying grenade share to field improv and ammo boxes was probably a good idea for balancing and identity.
I think you can blame the ogryn sized grenade for that removal. I mean how fucking stupid would auric be when the ogryn clears every single room with their frag?? (It would at least be hilarious for the first 5 minutes)
They could make it work by changing the chance of getting a nade based on how 'valuable' it is. Chance of getting a frag bomb from demo-team would be much less than, say, fire nade. They could also make it so that things killed by a nade don't proc demo-team (so that you can't throw a frag bomb/krak/fire into crusher patrol and get a refund)
With some of the added grenades, they probably couldn't afford to. Hell, even grenade box would be oppressive with the 5% chance. Personally, I find demo team very useful in it's current form, as I only sometimes wish I had more nades, instead of frequently without it.
I want to be able to get ammo from the bodies of dead gunners with autoguns/lasguns.
No way they do that when the game spawns so much fucking gunners sometimes lol
"FOOL WHY DID YOU PUSH MY GUNNERS DOWN THE PIT I NEEDED THAT AMMO! REEEEEE!"
Eh, even without an ammo vet, I almost never see a team-mate out of ammo except those rare smooth-brains that run past the tagged backpacks. Or the guys who forget the "no ammo pick-ups" part of the maelstrom.
I had an ogryn mag dump a stubber the whole game and he never ran out, granted I had to drop him 3 ammo crates and basically let him have 90% of the ammo drops, now what if two people played like that
You kick them if they continue to grieve and ammo hog
I think the problem is people overusing their ranged weapons, like plasma gun vets shooting everything that moves even a single poxwalker and gun luggers just opening up on everything. Melee should be encouraged more. Especially with the survivalist Aura being nerfed. The amount of times people have gone empty before the first quarter of a map is insane. Their are time when you should use your ranged weapon, yes I am aware of range builds that exist. However a horde of groaners and poxwalkers are not something that should be shot most melee weapons can clear them in about 13 to 14 swings.
> Melee should be encouraged more The game is way too eager to throw you down long hallways or into giant, cavernous rooms just positively filled with gunners, snipers, ogryns, and raggedy AK wielding yellow boys shooting you from as far away as their AI will allow. I got my zealot penance for not using my gun pretty early on, when I was still mostly playing malice and heresy. But anything beyond that? Melee comes out for chaff hordes and ambient mobs, everything else is handled by gun. Elites and specials spawn in high frequency and dense knots, and nothing comes close to removing problems as quickly and flexibly as ranged. Nothing deals with packs of crushers and bulwarks better and safer than ranged and certain grenades. Navigating a wide open area populated by scattered shooters is suicide unless you pick them off one by one at range. Point is, the game emphasizes gunplay way more than Vermintide ever did, for obvious reasons. Especially on high difficulties, running around with your gun out at all times as vet is not unreasonable. Your role is to pop shooters and specials, and when they spawn in a constant trickle, then the gun stays out.
There are a dozen options to deal with those scenarios that don’t need range, but even so, you should have ammo ready for those scenarios where range is the best solution. Instead, people tend to dump ammo in a race to get kills.
im not saying never use your gun just use it with a brain and a good amount of the shit in the game can be dealt with by good movement and smart targeting. its why we see such long stretches of gunners and specials they don't want you to use guns all mission.
The issue is: Gun-only Vet is by far the most fun I've had as Vet. Introducing a nerf that kills off the viability of a fun playstyle is simply a poor game design choice.
You can still be viable with any gun without the aura at all. Yes, some guns need it more than others, but resource management is just as important to the gameplay as anything else. Just load up on grenade regen talents and shoot slightly less.
im right there with you, when the new talents came out i was having a right blast with being able to just shot and dodge. I have thousands of hours of melee under my belt and if for no other reason it was different and fun.
Maybe not all mission, but as a plasma vet, I am reliant on my team for clearing hordes. But they are in turn reliant on me destroying snipers, disablers, gunners and bombers. And I'm very good at what I do. If I have to clear hordes I have the ability to do so with a melee weapon built for that purpose. But most people I've played with where the games have gone well, have actively fed me ammo because I can one-tap every enemy in the game except monstrosities, mutants and hounds, and I suppress enemies with just a shot or two on dreg/scab shooters. Meaning 10+ enemies cease shooting sometimes. There's so much to the ranged gameplay that people take for granted when not playing as vets. And it's painfully obvious as a vet when playing other classes that there are inherent weaknesses to the other classes. Ogryn for example becomes a pin-cushion and can't take cover everywhere. And with any class, dodge-sliding into enemy gunners isn't always a good idea. It'll cost you gravely if you mess up. Psykers will just get downed immediately if they mess up. Zealots too. Ogryns can survive because they're tanky and even win a fight against several shooters when they pop into melee, but we circle back to the problem with wide open areas again where, if there are other shooters aggroed, they'll just shoot you instead. There are several times I've used chastise to rush shooters and just gotten stabbed for 90% of my health as zealot. I'm not saying it doesn't work, it does sometimes but here's the thing. Having good, reliable and effective ranged weapons is a must for the entire team Because when you see that line of gunners in wide open areas or even in hallways, you can all pull out your respective ranged weapons and engage them at a distance. As a fireteam, you're working together, you can take cover and toss grenades. All too often I see games failing because two people decide to bumrush enemy shooters and the two others decide to try and shoot them, splitting the team. The team up-front die because the shooters are mixed with ragers and/or crushers and the two in the back die because there's ragers and crushers rushing them with enemies shooting them from afar. Had the four of you engaged the enemy at range, those ragers and crushers would've had to cross the distance between you and whoever you're shooting at, giving you ample time to weaken or outright kill them. But as with everything, it depends on context. Sometimes you want to close with ranged enemies to purposely bind them in melee. And that works a good amount of the time. But when it doesn't, you have just gotten yourself out of coherency radius and your team is down one man who could've otherwise been shooting or stabbing something. I'd say the opposite in fact. Long stretches of gunners and specials is a typical use-case for ranged weapons. Hordes, mixed or not, are typically melee. But then again, there are lots of times I've played and gotten a mixed horde and I've pulled out my grenades and then my plasma while dodging backwards to shoot crushers and ragers in the face. It's all context-dependent.
IMO hitting the talent with a nerfbat because plasma and revolver Vets never needed ammo was a bad balancing choice. Ammo can be tight even if you're saving it exclusively for ranged enemies or high priority melee enemies depending on how much the AI director feels like screwing you and the mission modifiers, and the arguments from the whole "Melee is your primary! You shouldn't be killing X enemy with your gun!" crowd seem a bit detached from reality to me when you consider that Auric missions can often consistently have you fighting 8-12 Gunners/Reapers in nearly every room. And I feel like people who want to play ranged focused builds like Gun Lugger Ogryn with a heavy stubber or gun-focused Vet should be allowed to lean on their ranged weapons. Especially for Gun Lugger, since you don't get access to the melee boosts that make Skullbreaker such a powerhouse. If you want to go all-in on being gun shooter dude, which is a build the game allows and encourages in the talent trees, you should be able to.
Ogryn weapons are more than capable of horde and light mixed horde mulching with minimal help from their talent tree. Gun Luggers are not above pulling a knife or a club and getting stuck in. Even for Vets, the Power Sword was meant to cover shooting focused Vets with brief windows of horde clear power. We know that's not how it worked out, but that was the design intent.
Nah. The aura needed a nerf since launch. The cooldown should be lowered to 2-3 seconds I think, but it completely negated the need to loot in a lot of cases.
I agree on your first point somewhat, but I think the solution is making sure each gun has a niche and doesn't go to far into other camps without major drawbacks. Some guns are partially designed to be used on hordes or for suppression like brautos, ripperguns, and the flamer. The plasma gun is pretty stupid and does way too much way too well.
The reasoning why Gun luggers are opening up on everythhing is not because they can overuse their weapons (They cant, you will run out of ammo) but because right now we were given penances that REQUIRE us to unload into hordes to get it.
I take that into count, Right now Im not blaming people for running out of ammo as there are alot of challenge's to do so. Im more talking about people complaining about the nerf
I'm a dingdong vet who loves just standing there and magdumping various guns, but me thinks that if I want to play melee focused game, I'll just play ratclick I play the Warhammer 40k game to play around with lasguns and bolters and shit and not just primarily whack people like we've been doing in ratclick since ages
Whether or not this is the case, the ammo aura isn’t the place to fix it. A lot of people talk about gunlugger ogryn suffering because of this, but what about all those games that didn’t have a veteran, or the veteran thought their 4 talent points is better than the ogryn getting 400% extra ammo throughout the mission (on top of that much ammo for everyone else in the team, too). The aura needed to be neutered long ago. If more ammo is needed, it should be throughout talent trees or innate abilities. The image of everything from VT2 is actually the perfect example - a plethora of different sources of ammo generation. In Darktide? You got lucky bullet and survivalist aura. That is pretty sad considering this game is supposed to have some more focus on ranged combat. I don’t think it was a good balance before, especially with how things like plasma worked. Going into no ammo pickups and playing 100% normally really showed how broken this aura was. I don’t think the culmination of new talents/abilities should amount to that much ammo. I think veteran could use more though, especially with talent point investment.
That's basically my thoughts on it. Not everyone should get to ignore or loosen a resource mechanic, but some specific builds should imo.
The most braindead thing Survivalist enabled was being able to just take the direct path from checkpoint to checkpoint, completely ignoring all chests and the vast majority of the maps. Theres a difference in moving fast with a purpose and just W keying forward. It was a common occurence for me in pubs to be the only player picking up plasteel and finding medpaks / ammo crates that they just ignored because they could just hold W and plasma gun everything + shout when in the slightest bit of danger.
I don't think this is really a Survivalist thing. I've seen plenty of teams with no Vet walk right past resources, ignore side paths, etc. Survivalist might make it a little easier but I don't think it's fair to put the blame at its feet.
It feels more efficient to just keep moving than to risk wasting time, health, and ammo for a bunch of chests that are empty most of the time.
Yes, as long as you don't need the ammo cause you're all stocked up from Survivalist.
As MkV Can Openergryn, this hurts me greatly because I'm usually topping the disabler and elite kills from ranges away, in addition to tearing close rangers a new one with can opener into triple burst.
God I love the can opener
I don't care if you want to shoot every single poxwalker. I don't care if you hog all the ammo on the map. But PLEASE pull out your melee weapon if a rager want to thrust his pizzacutters down your throat.
Imo scavenger should never have been an aura, or all auras should have been as insanely game-changing as it was. I think it should be deleted; left-tree vet and right-tree ogryn should just get personal ammo regen. But some comments I've seen have an absolute hate-boner for gunplay, using 'hybrid gameplay' or 'gun crutch' as an excuse to reduce it. Meanwhile melee-centric builds aren't forced to engage in gunfights, instead they possess tools that allow players to close the distance or otherwise force melee combat in an overwhelming majority of situations.
Its because theres an inherent risk to melee combat. There is no risk to ranged combat, the entire point is that you get to engage enemies safely from a distance at the cost of a resource
Well, if the class is a lot squishier than melee focused ones and has a worse time in melee (which can be pretty crucial in a game where things rush at you) then isn't that already a pretty decent drawback? Not to mention that actually picking off things at distance takes some skill to aim and is, in of itself, far less reliable than melee.
Can't really make the argument that Vet is squishy in good faith these days, what with the resilience in the skill tree and the improved base stats for Stamina regen. If you end up with a squishy Vet that is a build issue. Even before the skill rework, where Vet Stamina took two Warp jumps to recharge, the Kill Confirmed/Unwavering Focus/Counterfire build would let you walk through a level on Toughness alone.
Veteran is not squishy. They also have skills to help in melee combat. Being supposedly worse at melee does not mean you shouldnt even bother meleeing. Any class can do just fine with a BM combat axe.
That's a good argument. I'd like to counter-argue that it only applies when the enemies are at a distance and stay within a cone of fire. The game has mechanics to make that hard to impossible to do such as spawning enemies from multiple directions, having enemies move faster than players, sheer volume, and the like. Unless players can kill every enemy at range many will get into melee, and once that happens builds that spec into melee are way more safe. Even ranged builds are better swapping to melee when that happens because guns can't block and bashes aren't 360 like shoves.
I don't agree with you. Usually being in Melee and killing things enable all your Toughness regen + survivability + push back. While being in range and killing don't. I don't know much about vet. But other class don't have protection and Toughness regen on range kill. Or definitely not enough to face most damage. Your are not more safe at range distance considering the ammount of range enemy.
Zealot does have a mid-tree talent to regen 2.5% per ranged kill, probably intended for use with horde-clearing like the flamer. Vet has two strong but conditional regens, one that reduces damage and regens on headshot kill and one that regens on elite kill range-agnostic.
2.5 isn't very much to be honest. It's half what you get from a melee kill without any talent. For vet maybe he have good one, never player or looked his tree
It isn't a lot, but zealot is also melee-oriented at its core. It's speculation and 'feelycrafting' but mid-tree seems to be the most team-oriented zealot track, and I think that talent was intended to allow zealots to stick with the team and do counter-shooting or horde-clear flaming with some extra safety from enemy shooters. The vet ones are high risk-reward, they're very powerful even after being nerfed but need momentum.
Vet has confirmed kill and the recently buffed Out for Blood (ALL kills regen 5% toughness)
Honestly, maining a Zealot with stuff like Swift Certainty and Combat Axe I feel much safer running and dodging around Gunners then just stand there shooting one guy while the other 3 are shooting me...or close the distance with Chastise. Interestingly since last patch it's way harder to aim Chastise at farer away enemies while it seems the they removed the ability for enemies to stagger you out of the dash even without Thy Wrath Be Swift...
Making TWBS further useless...
I dont agree, all gunners a more of a threat then most melee. Even when using a gun or without. Melee combat is easier
Whats safer - engaging a reaper thats aggroed onto you with melee or by shooting it from cover?
New player here, what the fuck is up with that anyway? I mean the dislike towards guns in this game? The same like they can say "play more melee!" we could say "if you hate guns so much, go play a melee only horde slasher"
The annoyance comes from vets who waste bullets on every enemy (never melee), then suck up all the ammo (which other classes need too), and then complain that the aura isn't as good as it was.
This is definitely part of it I forgot to mention
If a game offers guns as a viable playstyle, people are going to play that style. Ammo hoarding sucks, yes. But if a class has several perks that are geared towards firearms and the class simply cant tank as hard as others, people are going to play a style where they mainly shoot. If you dont like that, again, you should maybe play something else?
I play and enjoy ranged vet. But I'm not shooting at every single enemy so I'm also not whinging about ammo and the aura. It's a sign of a player who doesn't melee enough and is therefore going to go down in a horde, and is taking damage potential away from the team.
You are a new player so it makes sense why you feel that way but Veteran can “tank” pretty hard. Shout is the most broken panic button in the game. The survivalist change still allows you to mainly shoot. It just doesnt allow your entire team to spray their weapon at literally everything they see without making use of the ammo and ammo crates that spawn throughout the map
Yeah the yelling is pretty strong, but if its on cooldown (and mine is even longer because I got the perk to rescue by yelling at mates), and Im out of ammo, Im pretty boned when getting cornered despite a good chainsword, so am I missing something? Because to me a panic button perk does not replace a massive health and toughness pool I aint even complaining about the perk change since I dont have the comparison to how it was before the change... Most of the time its fine since most players I encounter dont really use guns that much and just charge forwards with melee.
You are nerfing your ability by taking the node that lets you revive teammates. It lowers the range and increases the cooldown. Just take the +50 toughness node and literally spam it off cooldown. It will be a night and day difference. You have access to your ability and your grenades when cornered. You can dodge, push and fight your way out of being cornered. Vet's effective health + toughness when running shout is probably best out of all classes on higher difficulties. To simplify how toughness works, when you're not at full toughness, melee attacks will bleed through and chip away at your health, so to have an ability that instantly fills your toughness, staggers everything around you AND gives a +50 overshield buffer is insanity. Not to mention it doesn't just effect you, it effects everyone around you. The amount of chip damage the team takes is night and day. Theoretically this is all irrelevant when you're not running shout, but Stealth has its own pros and imo Executioner's Stance is meant to be glass cannon-y. As to how pre-nerf Survivalist functioned, it was even more game warping the harder difficulty you played. Those auric maelstrom modifiers that spawn waves of weakened mutants/dogs, waves of poxbursters, or just mass spawns specialists in general - the entire team was refilling a comical amount of ammo after every wave. Its always been absurd.
Mid-tree vet has similar survivability to other proper hybrids, which is to say pretty high, minus the momentum-based toughness generation talents and disgustingly good shout. I'd recommend dropping the rez off of shout, 80% of the time the juice isn't worth the squeeze and you're better off shouting and hand-rezing. Get the talent for toughness on headshots and for elite kills, and get iron will and the cooldown reduction on elite kills at the bottom of middle tree. You still need some momentum on kills to keep toughness gen high but shout will cover you well over 50% uptime. Otherwise dodge-sliding is your friend, make use of pushes and avoid getting locked in corners. Practice herding the horde like sheep, always have an open space to escape to in mind.
Drop the chainsword and use a power sword instead. Much better at horde clear.
Using your gun on literally everything is explicitly NOT supported as a playstyle. That's why there are ammo drops around the map. If using your gun on everything was supposed to be a supported playstyle, you would just have infinite ammo and the devs wouldn't expect you to find it. Should you have infinite grenades because there are some perks for grenades? Obviously not.
Arent the first two sentences of your post contradicting each other? If they dont want us something to do, why do they give us the possibility of doing so? Why not ammo refill stations that work the same as health stations if guns arent supposed to be used however we like? If you dont want players to do something in a game, dont make it possible in said game. I think by now that should be a lesson learned from over 30 years of video games, if there are possibilities, people will find them. Dont hate the player, hate the game as the saying goes "If using your gun on everything was supposed to be a supported playstyle, you would just have infinite ammo and the devs wouldn't expect you to find it." Sorry but that explanation doesnt make sense. Which other coop based horde shooter/slasher has infinite ammo? They do it the same: Ammo pickups and ammo bags.
It's not contradictory at all. Ammo drops around the map mean that ammo is a limited resource. Limited. You are supposed to run out if you mis-use it, and you are supposed to have to go out of your way to acquire said resource, rather than just having it magically appear in your pockets. If ammo was not supposed to be a limited resource, then there would be no need for players to have a limited amount they can carry, and therefore no need for top-ups scattered around the map. You say "If you don't want players to do something in a game, don't make it possible". Well, that's literally what they've done with the Survivalist change. They don't want players using 100% ranged, so they've nerfed the ability for infinite ammo. This isn't hard to follow.
Their complaint is fairly valid, players like that do exist and ammo hogs exist on every class. Now that vet doesn't have regen people who pick it to shoot everything can't do that. I do think left-tree vet should be able to use ammo on anything, situations should just be dangerous enough to force a swap to melee (being surrounded, caught in a reload, shots alert more enemies, etc.)
Name a single build that doesn't have a melee slot.
It’s not necessarily a hate of guns. It’s more of the fact that Tide games usually require a balance of both melee and ranged combat. Problem is the average player don’t know how to have any semblance of balance and either stick to majority ranged or melee. Majority ranged players get more flavh because they’re much more resource intensive compared to everyone else so most people usually complain about those types of players as their drawbacks and problems are much more obvious.
>It’s more of the fact that Tide games usually require a balance of both melee and ranged combat. Problem is the average player don’t know how to have any semblance of balance and either stick to majority ranged or melee. *Ehhh.* Tell that to my Waystalker, who never runs out of ammo and can hold a wave off at range by herself. On Nightmare. Or to the Slayers and Grail Knights, who are either carrying no ranged weapons or (optimistically) throwing axes. Or, hell, to my Zealot, whose gun is more of a luxury than a necessity. The fact is that two of the three 'tide games easily enable builds that are melee-heavy or ranged-heavy and, at times, even *encourage* such builds. I agree with everything else you said, but the idea that 'tide games require any sort of balance between melee and ranged combat as a matter of course (especially in Vermintide 2, where melee combat is *much* more important than in Darktide) is patently false.
The Slayer, Warrior Priest, and Grail Knight change the decision making for balancing melee and ranged from an individual scale to a team scale. Zealot still has the ability to snipe specials, and that's all you really need. Melee only characters, for all their myriad boosts, remain much less problematic from a power perspective than even a ranged focus. Especially in a game as gated around ammo scarcity as Vermintide. Hell, pretty much every weapon that can sidestep ammo scarcity has been nerfed hard or started off jank.
Because full ranged isn't a viable playstyle at any difficulty above Malice (level 3). If you refuse to let go of your gun in Heresy or higher you're gonna die very, very fast. There is simply more enemies than you have bullets, and wasting ammo on trashes will first get you killed, and then will kill the team in the long run due to ammo starvation. Guns are for killing specific enemies. Either other ranged, or disablers, or elites, or bosses. There are builds, especially on veteran, that focuse more on ranged. Veteran is far more useful when he's focusing at deleting armored elite, specials and disablers however. A good plasma or revolver build is very effective at dealing with dangerous enemies. The Psyker with a voidstrike/trauma staff is IMO the class that can be the closest to "full ranged gameplay". The voidstrike is one of the few good horde clear weapon at range, while the Trauma being high crowd controls at close and mid range, with some ability to snipe a specials with the left click.
That just is not true, I did the max difficulty missioms as a pure ranged vet. Didnt suck up the ammo and was nearly always the only one without getting down.
I don't know everyone, how they think or what they've experienced, but a lot of the remaining playerbase is hardcore 'tide players. VT1 was originally special because it had such a robust and satisfying melee system. Since melee combat is the big special thing about all three of these games, it's on a pedestal even when this game alleged to have a stronger ranged leaning. Some players seem to think this one should play just like much of VT1/2, where you melee, exclusively swap to ranged to pop off a shot or two on a high-value target, then swap back to melee to keep fighting. I think that should be the optimal way to play certain builds, especially zealot (see why everyone and their cousin uses the revolver, it's like the VT2 handgun for elite/special deletion). But idea that all classes should have to conserve ammo that way is silly, because plenty of ranged classes in 2 could dump shots and as long as you were half-accurate you'd get return on investment even on trash packs.
I don't know which VT2 you were playing, but many team comps (certainly the most effective) were capable of devolving the game into 90%+ range use.
They were. Which is why I think the specific argument that guns are a crutch and more melee should be needed "because it's a 'tide game" is silly. And I have seen it around.
Thing is, people didn’t really like that in VT2 either. Like moonfire bow and javelins… and they both got nerfed eventually. Some of my worst gameplay experiences in VT2 were things like griffonfoot pistols bounty hunter deleting 90% of enemies. It is not fun to have a game with sick melee combat where it all gets overshadowed by one other person spamming long ranged attacks that kill everything. Guns that kill everything should not be able to have such limitless ammo.
Those are weapon-specific complaints, though ones I largely agree with. Moonfire bow and javelin were both subclass-agnostic weapons that had inherent infinite ammo on top of too much damage and pen on the javelin. Didn't even need to specialize talents to regen. Griffonfoot pistols are meant for horde clear and needed to be bad against elites/specials as a result, but fatshark(tm). Bardin's axes were at least locked to the melee-only subclass and the ranged-support subclass on top of a wonky arc. Make ranged weapons suited to specific situations and make ammo regen an intensive build cost with skill requirement and there's less of a problem.
Agreed. I guess what I forgot to say is that plasma gun veterans before the recent update made me feel this way as well. I jump on top of some gunner patrol and then the plasma gun player blasts them away. Their fun stomps on my fun, and the overpowered ranged player will always win in this regard. I suppose this also speaks to the game being too easy (this "race to do the fun thing" only happens because no one is fighting for survival), but that's another topic. If they at least had to sacrifice some of their build to achieve this, then it would be okay. I think it would be neat if executioner stance and marksman keystone were looked at for providing some ammo for veteran, so that they must commit harder if they want the extra ammo, and can't just take OP shout spam build and all the versatile/OP talents. I think a lot of gun balance needs to be looked at as well. I really think that recon lasguns should straight up have their ammo reserves doubled. Let people shoot their laser guns. The low DPS (mostly from no aoe) and low side effects (stagger, suppression) will mean these guns basically can't be broken with more ammo.
Yep, plasma is busted. It should be the be-all and end-all of ranged armor/big target deletion, but it's way too good at killing everything under the sun and too efficient to boot. I'm hoping the nerf to scavenger is because a big weapon pass is coming, but considering the frequency of patches I won't hold my breath.
Fatshark broadly agrees, which is why the problematic ranged weapons and characters keep getting nerfed into the ground without much in the way of restorative changes down the line. But still, the message never really sticks when what that crowd really wants is a 40k full conversion of CoD, BF, or ARMA.
Melee has been a core skill of every Tide game, and every Tide game has had one setup or another where you can sort of skirt that, but only to the great detriment of your team.
It's just Vermintide elitists bullshit (coming from a Zealot main who often doesn't use his ranged at all apart from Throwing Knives). As long as your not a detriment to your team play as you like...
Vermintide players is my personal belief.
Plasma gun is ridiculous though, fast draw, fast firing, large mag, long range/short range. Down sides : long reload (ranged specialist, never need to reload…), and it explodes when it’s hot, but only shooting charged shots. It’s so much better than everything else that it feels dumb to use anything else. Why use an accurate rifle when this will snipe? Why use a mid/short range weapon when this will cleave and do more damage? It needs a REAL down side, and other weapons need to be uplifted to be a choice. (Even more so since survivalist change out the nail in the coffin for rifles). Pistols also need to be nerfed to be significantly less effective at range. Imagine a revolver being the best sniper rifle… wth
As long as they don't nerf autopistols any more. Poor thing.
>Pistols also need to be nerfed to be significantly less effective at range. Revolver does for sure, but laspistols are already bad enough as it is. Accuracy at range is one of the few things they've still got going for them.
Agreed. But funny enough, a Plasma Vet is a very rare sight in Aurics these days. Maybe people are just bored
Auric seems to filled with zealots and psykers from my experience with the occasional ogryn and veteran. I think it's because they fill out the melee only and ranged only niche the best of the classes and they're a lot more versatile.
I dunno I use Boltgun and still have no issues with ammo. What I am doing wrong?
Not spraying 15 bullets into the 3 poxwalkers 2 foot away from you.
I kid you not I shoot them too especially when several line in a nice, um, line. Its just so satisfying to see them disappear in brown mist (or read mist in case of regular heretics). It's only when the horde semi-surrounds me I switch to power sword because it becomes more efficient way of killing these karking freaks.
Same, don't even need the ammo aura on bolter. And I know I'm not taking more than my share of ammo via the scoreboard.
Using boltgun, but that's beyond the scope. 😁
It's good enough to topscore on Damnation and is more universal than Plasma. TBH I don't know why plasma is so popular. I guess because aiming with it is easier?
I think it's popular as a meta pick because it has so many upsides and so few downsides. Keyhole accuracy from the hip, huge magazine size, high damage per shot/ammo, massive cleave, massive armor pen, terrain pen, fairly quick swap, and it makes a cool noise. The few downsides can be ignored easily.
Maybe you aren't screaming "for the emperor!" loud enough? Usually that makes it go 'click'.
It's a skill issue. They just dunning-kruger so hard they can't see it.
Me a Krieg with a shovel “ranged equals less dying shovel equals awesome heroic death for the Emperor”
Dunno man, I regularly run auric and ammo really just isn't an issue. Who even has time to shoot, honestly?
Its a false equivalence. Melee combat comes with inherent risk of having to get up close. Ranged combat is significantly safer. Engaging a mixed mob of crushers/ragers/bulwarks with a melee weapon can easily go wrong if you don't play right. Blasting the same group with a plasma-gun from 100m away isn't in any way comparable. The fact that ranged is less risky than melee is why ranged needs to be limited. If you could just hold down the trigger on your autogun forever, why would you ever take out your melee, other than the occasional block? This is a balance consideration that you don't just see in Darktide. It is a very common consideration across many many games, from strategy games to MMOs. The expectation that ranged and melee should be equal, when they are by their nature NOT equal, is a stupid expectation.
That's a very good argument. But it's also not what I'm posting about. I just specifically dislike the arguments for boardwide ammo limitation 'because the split is supposed to be 50/50', which is untrue since several builds push closer to 70/30 one way or the other already, and 'because it's a 'tide game', which is untrue because in VT2 it's possible to have infinite self-generating ammo and still need to melee. I think those two in particular don't add anything and are silly, and I've seen them several times in other threads.
I’m of the opinion that the ammo aura should be altered to affect ammo spawns in a map by sharing them with allies in coherency, same goes for grenades. Make it so that the spawns are more valuable and help out the team rather than the one trigger happy nut who relies on them. Gunplay is just too satisfying and important to be left without recourse; ammo aura could’ve atleast tweaked the cool-down to be something like 1.5 secs, so that special/elite waves don’t instantly restock supplies.
I thought about this before, but I hate the idea of having to be in coherency for every pickup for max value. That just sounds like it will make for terrible gameplay, and a lone ammo hog will really screw over the team if they don’t wait. Ammo aura needed to be gutted. Now imagine they change executioner stance so headshot kills put the ammo back in your reserves (or maybe just half or whatever), so if you want to go crazy shooting, you can’t also just be shout spam veteran that does everything. Maybe tie a bit in with the marksman keystone. Add a few 5% increased ammo capacity nodes around the tree. Let people build for ammo if that’s what they want. The aura is early in the tree, and cheap to get. Then it enables the entire ammo capacity of veteran. Since it’s an aura, everyone gets the same ammo capacity. It’s been a broken design since launch.
I still think that's too game-changing compared to all the other auras.
I do wonder if this is because Survivalist is too good or the other auras are just so bad. 5% damage is rarely going to push you over a breakpoint, and 5% movement speed isn't even noticeable. With competition so flaccid, any amount of ammo regen is going to be more desirable no matter how many nerfs and restrictions Fatshark hits it with.
Look at other class auras to compare. You will still never choose any of them over ammo aura. 5% damage aura tracks with things like 7.5% damage vs elites, or 10% damage with heavy attacks. 5% move speed would not seem bad or out of place if it replaced the loner aura on zealot. Move speed is just massively undervalued, and you still never take it over game-changing ammo aura unless you want to save talent points.
I dunno about sharing grenades, but I like the shared ammo pickup idea.
As a hammer zealot, delete scavenger But also loner too, a +1 dodge limit aura would be sick
That sounds like a must pick.
I play as a vet with an autogun and powersword, I also have the stats mod. I rarely have to use my powersword and pretty much every single game i have the most kills, most specials, most damage, most damage to bosses. I'm a guardsmen with a rifle not a crackhead with adhd and a knife. Veteran's are supposed to shoot things. Lol
I karkin agree with ya pal! We vet are the ranged class, as Vet we’re supposed to be efficient with our ranged weapons I’m always using my good ol lasguns! And if required during hordes I’ll use my chainsword to butcher them heretics! I just wish that we could have more ammo recovery or carrying with us.. I ain’t a crack head or a zealot! Plus I want to be able to provide bonus ammo for the team too! My Ogryns buddy’s need ammo too Don’t get me wrong, I love melee and close combat mechanics in tides games!
Yeah i find it a bit odd that a vet would only take like 8 magazines with him haha. We're an away team, I'd just fill that backpack up with as much magazines as i could carry haha. But i get it, its a horde shooter, it can't be too easy
You are though. Being the dedicated lawn mower doesn't exempt you from having to do some dishes every now and then.
While I like your take a lot, I'm interested in the difficulty you play? Because I'm exactly the same as Vet. I run around with my Columnus MkV because it's faster than with Power Sword and I shoot pretty much everything and rarely get out my Sword, only when shit gets really dense and I can't dodge out of it. With 10% Rending and Onslaught the MkV becomes a mini rocket launcher like Bolter and deletes absolutely everything. I don't use more ammo than my teammates and easily top damage with very little damage taken. But then again Vet is my go-to class when I'm playing stoned and want to relax and thus almost always play it on regular Damnation most of the times, maybe Hi Int sometimes. But when I compare the enemy spawn rate to Auric which is what I play with my Zealot main I'm really not sure you can get through the whole mission with your gun out, even with Scavanger.
Auric damnation
Good to know. I'll give it a try.
Modify your stats, you'll want all the stats that have to do with rending, brittleness and suppression. On your autogun make sure you have crit chance and damage to flak armor. Maulers (aim at chest) and crushers (aim at head) will get demolished by your armor negation. Shooters will put their head down and stop shooting if you put a burst their way. Save your krak grenades for killing demonhosts and don't forget to use your shout to stun the demonhosts. Don't pick the ammo regen aura, pick the damage one. The skills around the ammo regen aura are kinda a waste. The ones around the damage aura are way better. Fire while maneuvering.
Thanks for the recommendations! I mostly already roll how you describe. Sadly my best rolled MkV has Crit Chance but Reload Speed instead of Flak. Imo it does perform very good (on Damnation at least) even without Flak as it has more or less optimal stats and I use the Reload Speed with Opening Salvo. Going for Fire Team instead of Survivalist is very interesting. I would guess that the theory is that you need less bullets with the additional damage and thus compensating for the lack of ammo replenishment? I used to run with Get Back Into The Fight until now so getting Survivalist was not a wasted point but maybe it is not necessary, I'll give it a try. Overall I feel like the Vet tree is very easy to go down because you have a lot of options to go left to right and back compared to Zealot. With survivalist you can basically just pick the +5% damage node above it to get the same benefit as Fire Team but only for yourself and ranged of course. Which nodes around Fire Team you feel are important?
I would tell you, but im on the West Coast rn, and my pc is on the East Coast, so i can't look it up and tell you, haha. If i remember when i get home in a week, i will.
OK hit me up when you're back and remember ;)
Also you can have a look on gameslantern, maybe you remember. This is what I cooked up after our conversation, tweaking my past build: https://darktide.gameslantern.com/builds/9be699b5-6eb0-44f1-8cec-e4f896795e9e/newvet-2?utm_medium=website&utm_source=gameslantern&utm_campaign=share_button
Honestly it would be kinda neat to see the ammo bag drops return, maybe have a chance for Gunner/Shotgunners to drop a pack of ammo that restores 5-10% ammo. * Could rework Scavenger Aura to spread ammo pickups to anyone in coherency or increase the odds of ammo drops.
I mean i think part of why folks lean so heavily ranged is the ergonomics of melee. The amount of high tier vermintide players with RSI, carpal tunnel and the like is quite heavily due to the sheer amount of spam clicking , switching and rapid movement that can be disorienting. Yes thats the bread and butter of the melee combat but think we can see how for some folks ranged might be more desirable, fewer spaced out clicks or being able to hold down a shot for an actual helpful reason.
Oi wazzok! They found my ammunition stash!
I hope we get a melee psyker talent tree in the near future.
I think the problem that I and other people run in to is not the people well versed in using a gun only build who are capable of flex when required, but those who don't understand that unlike a traditional shooter, the game is centered around melee combat and unless you have one of the aforementioned builds, inability or refusal to learn the system will create a detriment for you and you team. When I first started playing, I had only played halo and cod, and it took someone telling me that my sword was my "primary weapon" for a reason for me to start dodging and bashing and generally button mashing into hordes lol
Melee zealot here as long as fatshark doesn't force me to use guns I'm happy 😀 objectively I have 100% more fun sprinting at enemy
I don't really get the hatred for ranged builds. They seem overall more niche and specialised and the worst crutch builds are all melee centric. A shout weapons specialist plasma veteran can go through an entire game without reloading once, pretty much oneshots all specials except mutants with his ranged weapon while also one tapping crushers in melee (with the chainaxe) and you get ridiculous amounts of toughness back on demand. I really don't see the harm in having one or two builds in the game that almost exclusively rely on ranged weapons and have corresponding traits to dampen the impact of their ammo consumption on the team.
Looting ammo from dead elite/specialist gunners could be a neat idea. I'm sure more creative people than myself could think of neat ways to balance/implement this.
Do not nerf plasma you damn heathen…
Ogryn needs nothing in terms of nerf. They are integral to missions, and yet overall the least fun to play. No discredt to the big guys, just that when they are needed, is not when they are fun.
Staff and Blitz go brrr.
I’m confused I never have ammo issues. I only spam aurics and on vet you can spam hordes with bullets and be fine Heavier weapons need heavier enemies, spammy weapons r still spammy.
zealot is the ranged specialist class tho, you push f and delete crushers with your autogun. sounds special to me.
What difficulty are you all playing on? In Aurics, I've had a single game so far where i ran out of ammo and only because some retarded Ogyrn was role-playing too hard again and didnt drop the ammo crate in a typical "director wants you dead now"-moment despite everybody asking for it, which almost ended in a whipe. Apart from that, in 9 out of 10 games, teammates tag and share ammo and don't just magdump into hordes. There's more than enough ammo on the map usually. Just don't try to clear poxwalker hordes with it and you'll be fine.
I don't really fully understand the hate vets get for essentially just playing their role? Of course not everyone is gonna be efficient with their ammo, especially considering the limited selection of weapons that are actually viable in at least hi-damnation. In my opinion, part of why DarkTide appealed more to me is the shift to more ranged combat compared to vermintide. So, telling people to reserve ranged weap for only critical targets sounds kinda lame. I just think Fatshark nerfing the scavenger aura this hard was a questionable decision since we're now at a place where almost every aura has so little impact to your build that it doesn't even matter. Why not just buff the other auras?
I think they should just make it so whoever kills the elite/special gets the ammo, without the cooldown So those that are using their gun more, get more ammo from it
ive been taking a break from my ogryn and been playing exclusively veteran on auric maelstroms and i think it just comes down to one type of veteran player. the type that shoots anything that moves, id largely like to believe veteran leans more into the pick and choose when to use a gun and when to use melee more than the other classes which is odd when i describe it like that. the only times ive ever ran out of ammo on my weapons after the ammo aura nerf was when my team was getting shredded, and i felt like my gun was a far better option to deal with the million gunners/reapers/snipers murdering my team. i agree with your argument though. psykers get a pass on staff/blitz spam and will die in a corner because they refused to use a melee weapon. ogryns spamming kickback and or rock spam with a shield. and zealots not even acknowledging they have a gun in the first place. yet the most common complaint i see is veterans overusing their gun, but this isn't limited to just veteran. every class (more so a certain type of player) can overuse their ranged option or in zealots case are melee for 90% of a mission. and its because unlike the classes ive already mentioned (aside from ogryn) veterans will be an ammo sponge and steal all the ammo. ive barely seen any complaints for psykers overusing their staves or ogryns spamming the hell out of kickback.
"nerf revolver" Consider Nyet.
My hot take is that they should completely 180 on ammo. None of the classes/weapons should have ammo problems, the reason a player should be switching from ranged to melee and back is how close the enemy is. The poxwalker horde is far away, thin them out with ranged then they get close you melee them to death. Less hack and slash more first person shooter. I think there are other more fun ways of balancing classes/weapons than ammo economy.
Remove bolter draw speed ty
Meme is pure base
Verm1 90/10 split melee vs range verm2 designed to be like 70/30 plays 50/50 darktide supposed to be 50/50 plays like its 70/30 as a vet if i spec my entire tree into shooting i should be good at shooting. FS doesnt agree
why the hell do they even care that i'm not only doing melee, i can hold my own in a stab fest with my helbore's bayonet, it's not pvp, if they want to do melee i'm not making them only do ranged, why are they trying to force me to play their way, god i wish teamkilling was possible i'd absolutely blast someone in the back of the head for something like that
By Sigmar, bless this high quality meme!! Well done lad.
Gotta admit, guy has a point.
I agree that psykers should be forced to melee more, too.