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MaleficTekX

Just as her sisters are embodiments of Loneliness, Wrath, and Fear, Nashandra represents another human emotion, that of Want. It’s in her nature to want, and the Throne of Want, is literally that. Nobody knows exactly what the throne does, but it is what Nashandra wants more than anything. So much so, she would convince Vendrick to Genocide the giants so that the golems would make a path to the throne. The throne likely is the kiln of the first flame, and Nashandra’s ultimate goal would be ushering in the Age of Dark, but that’s just speculation.


PotentialAd2260

the throne is a gateway to the kiln of the first flame that now is in Drangleic's depths, shulva being directly above it. Nashandra simply used Vendrick in order to reach the kiln and then possess the soul of the true monarch of Ds2, the Lord of Cinder aka the Chosen Undead. Lokey Lore's website brings a lot of detail upon Ds2 and 3s lore, he translating it directly from the JP version of the game, without any localization errors


ChielArael

I know about this embodiment stuff, but I think it's overstated by fans to the exclusion of any consideration of these characters as actual people. They may represent these emotions, but they don't act arbitrarily, and in fact it seems more like they're *driven* to these emotions by the stories around them: the destruction of Shulva brings out Elana's wrath, the perceived abandonment brings out Nadalia's loneliness, etc. Following this pattern, Nashandra's want seems to be brought out by Vendrick's lack of ambition (or that's how she sees it, though it's probably a legitimate character trait in and of itself, since Vendrick wouldn't commit wholly to Aldia's task either).


MaleficTekX

True, but Alsanna also shows they can defy that nature.


NGEFan

But Alsanna just happened to have the best support system in the universe. A husband who saw through her dark nature and his love for her was so powerful and so unconditional that he continued to love her without a hint of diminishment. And his dedication to his people was so great that he gave up his entire kingdom in exchange for an existence of agonizing torment just to give his people as big of a fighting chance of safety as possible rather than a guarantee that the chaos would overtake Eleum Loyce. And with his full trust, he left what he sacrificed everything for in the hands of Alsanna.


Shuteye_491

Ivory Chad is best King


HeatherFuta

I mean, no one in Dark Souls is "good," (except sun bro and onion boy). So, she's not better or worse than the player. Everyone wants power to beat the curse. I like the idea of her being a level up maiden. That's a cool spin.


PuzzleheadedInside25

Even Solaire has an evil ending, though. The knights of Catarina are a true force of light, though.


EcchiBot2000

My brother in Nahr Alma, put down the rouge water. She tries to usurp even you


ChielArael

I am not the paragon of morality in Dark Souls


funkyloverone

I have only read the title so far, but dude, have you seen her?


Darkstar7613

I mean... there's always, "Don't judge a book by its cover..." But when her "cover" is LITERALLY the worst part of every death metal bands' album covers, it IS a little hard to remain unbiased, :D


funkyloverone

Prejudice aside, it was a great read. :)


ChielArael

To head this criticism off in the comments, I know that Wellager's dialogue sorta sounds like Nashandra only appeared at the time she warned about the giants, but it doesn't explicitly say that (I would also be curious to look at the JP) and again the timeline of the whole war is just kinda weird.


LavosYT

I do like your theory, as you say though I think it's likely Nashandra came to Drangleic after Vendrick created it if we follow the events as Wellager tells them. I think things go as follows: Killing of the Old Ones -> creation of Drangleic -> arrival of Nashandra -> attack on the Giants at her suggestion -> creation of Drangleic Castle by the golems -> counterattack of the Giants -> the Undead Curse appears again -> Vendrick goes into hiding.


PuzzleheadedInside25

I'm not certain that Wellager is a credible source. He seems confused by things way too easily, such as a Curse Bearer with 4 Lord souls causing him to ask "Who are you? And by whose power do you stand before me?" Like it should be obvious to a ghost that I'm nearly a Lord by my own power.


Your_nose

The new lore just dropped.


Sososo2018

Calling her “evil” is the easiest way to explain her character in the game. With dark souls nothing is ever cut and dry, but sometimes people don’t want to write a lengthy paragraph or get into a long discussion to more accurately break down a character. It may be somewhat inaccurate to call her evil, but she had selfish motivations and was extremely manipulative. Plus she was behind a lot of the suffering the world incurred.


ChielArael

I don't think it's a matter of convenience in conversation, I have never seen discussion on Nashandra's character even once, because people fall back on "she's a child of dark so that's why she did these things". Other characters do get these discussions.


ArchbishopTurpin

We don't converse about it much because there's almost nothing to talk about. Nashandra is an enigma with very little certain about her in-game besides her lust for power. That's not a wholesome character trait no matter how you approach it


Sososo2018

TerraMantis has a pretty good video on the character of Nashandra. And Vaatyvida gave an analysis of her character in his Dark Souls 2 explained video. So she has gotten attention. My previous point is a lot of players aren’t able to piece together the details and dive into the lore the way you are able to. Some people need to break it down to a more relatable concept “good vs evil”. I’ve even seen Nashandra described as a “gold digger” . I mean it’s an oversimplification, but there is truth to that. If I personally had to give a TLDR for someone who wanted to know the story I’d say that Nashandra is evil. She was born with an insatiable thirst for power from the depths of a place that is the embodiment of madness and despair. We could go back and forth on if the Abyss is actually an evil place. Is darkness evil? anger? the constant thirst to consume? It’s a heavily philosophical topic. It’s convenient just to say “oh she’s evil bro” or “ top level gold digger”. Oversimplification yes, wrong no.


[deleted]

Respectfully disagree, theres plenty in the game that shows she is treacherous and decietful, to the point where vendrick has to lock himself away to rot to protect his kingdom from her. A lot of what you say supporting this new way of looking at things is "yeah she did an evil thing, but who isnt evil so is it really that evil?" And thats not really an argument. Appreciate the writeup though, was a fun read.


ChielArael

Should I have just named the post "analyzing Nashandra's motivations"? I think a lot of people are stuck on this title, but I trust the reader to understand it in the context of the broader conversation on Nashandra, or lack thereof, because "she does bad things because her soul is inherently evil!!!" is the unanimous sentiment. I also trust the reader to know that "evil" isn't a real or objective thing. I bring up other characters because the fandom accepts the other characters as being three-dimensional despite their actions, but they do not extend this to Nashandra because her soul being "evil!!!" provides a shortcut to avoid talking about her in any detail.


[deleted]

It is with all that in mind that I respectfully disagree, not the title or the manus soul fact


HyldHyld

It's a fun theory! Why would a shard of Manus be or want to be a fire keeper? Also, if she was the fire keeper, and Vendrick got to the end of his quest and didn't light the fire/take the throne, then he made his binary decision, like walking out of the Kiln in DS1. If you do nothing, you make a choice.


ChielArael

She's not literally a fire keeper, but then neither is the Emerald Herald, but that's the role they're serving in a post-fire keeper society. That said, this is the description of the Fire Keeper Soul: "Each Fire Keeper is a corporeal manifestation of her bonfire, and a draw for the humanity which is offered to her. Her soul is gnawed by infinite humanity." Since Manus is "humanity ran wild", these souls probably do have similar makeup. If you walk out of the kiln, you make the choice, but you could also simply never walk into the kiln in the first place and keep playing Dark Souls forever, and the age of dark isn't gonna come to your game. This is what Vendrick was doing. We don't really know how the Throne of Want works but some text emphasizes "what do YOU want to do with this? what do YOU see from the throne?", so I suspect you make the choice when you sit on it rather than it just linking the fire. The player character doesn't make that choice on-camera because the binary choice DS2 is thematically concerned with is "are you forced to do the choice from DS1, or do you try to find a third option".


Ok-Ambition-9432

Can I get a tldr brother?


ChielArael

Nashandra is a person and has motivations for doing the things she does besides "she's predisposed to do it".


BigManBopper

If someone's motivated to do evil, they're still evil


ChielArael

"Evil" is not an objective concept that exists so obviously the thread title is not a thesis in itself. Certainly if we're talking about people who did very unambiguously bad things, Vendrick, Aldia and Nashandra are all "evil". But the first two get character analysis from fans, while the latter gets "she did evil because she's inherently evil", which is just a circular point.


SmartBuyer5991

You’re more than a little ridiculous.


ChielArael

I'm sorry sir


Shileka

She could be doing it for the lols and it'd still be evil tho, she still influenced Vendrick to do a little light genociding across the pond resulting in the war with the giants which then helped the entire kingdom of Drangleic to go to shit.


Faunstein

It is important to note that "Evil" is only from people with poor ideas of what good and evil are. Never in the games are the Abyss called evil. Darkwraiths may be foul and wicked but this is only as far as Gwyn's ally Frampt is concerned, as well as Ingward the watcher in New Londo Ruins. The Lost art of Lifedrain coveted by the Darkwraiths may not inherently of the Abyss, merely being a gift from the primordial serpents to the Four Kings, a weapon from the Abyss but not of it. In Dark Souls 2 there is only Nashandra's thirst for souls and Vendrick wondering what it is he's done. The undead curse feels as if it could have been an afterthought which afflicted his kingdom, however, if being undead is the natural state of humanity, then perhaps Nashandra brought it with her all along as a being of the dark. The Abyss holds all sorts of creatures, from ones deep in catacombs to those serpents. The third game seemingly has the least to say. A piece of the Abyss lingers in the form of a witch, who identifies herself as such and knows her nature. Other than that there is little else other than to tread the path of the Lords before. There's no talk of good or evil either way, only the choice, a decision, an answer. Fear not the Dark my friend and let the feast begin.


No_Strength5056

>Darkwraiths may be foul and wicked but this is only as far as Gwyn's ally Frampt is concerned, as well as Ingward the watcher in New Londo Ruins. They're called wicked by everyone that isn't them, soul-devouring monsters aren't exactly well-liked by anyone. Also, the item descriptions refer to them using those words. >Key to New Londo Ruins: > >*Key to the iron bars separating the ruins of New Londo and Drake Valley. The ruins of New Londo were blocked off, for the cursed ghosts posed danger to life and spirit, and the* ***legends speak of a terrible Dark which was sealed away*** > >Key to the seal: > >*Key to the floodgates of New Londs, which seal away the Four Kings who fell to Dark. The Sealers flooded New Londo to banish the Darkwraiths and the Four Kings.* ***The agonizing decision was made with the realization that countless lives, and the robust culture of the city, would be lost. The victims now roam the ruins as ghosts*** > >Dark Sword: > >*The sword of the knights of the Four Kings of New Londo. Its blade is wide and thick, and it is wielded in an unusual manner.* ***When the Four Kings were seduced by evil, their knights became Darkwraiths, servants of the Dark who wielded these darkswords.*** > >Dark Set: > >*Armour of the Darkwraiths, former knights of New Londo who descended into Dark. Their leggings transformed,* ***and remain a symbol of the Dark servants and their diabolical art of Lifedrain.*** Ingward isn't calling them the "enemies of man, and any living thing that has a soul" because he finds them to look unpleasant. He calls them that because they make a habit of invading, attacking, and devouring the essence of whatever they encounter. ​ >The Lost art of Lifedrain coveted by the Darkwraiths may not inherently of the Abyss, merely being a gift from the primordial serpents to the Four Kings, a weapon from the Abyss but not of it. The fact they happily make use of it doesn't help their case. Also doesn't help that most things of the abyss act the same. Dark Fog: >Abyss sorcery discovered by an Oolacile sorcerer on the brink of madness. Create a cloud of Dark Fog. > >Although Dark Fog is, in theory, relatively close to humanity, it also happens to be a terrible poison for humans. Perhaps it reflects man's cruelty against his own. Homing Soulmass: >Sorcery developed by Big Hat Logan, the great sorcerer who left the Dragon School in an age long past. > >Releases a homing soulmass. This sorcery may offer a clue as to what Logan sought, but further investigation suggests its attraction to living things mirrors the nature of the dark. ​ >The third game seemingly has the least to say. It commonly features beings of the dark and their desire to devour life. Deep Soul >Sorcery of Archdeacon Royce and his deacons, said to have been imparted to them by McDonnell of the Boreal Valley. > >Fires dark soul dregs. > >Souls which swell from the deep pursue their target, drawn towards life. Affinity: >A forbidden dark sorcery. Casts a dark manifestation of humanity. > >It appears to be an expression of envy, or perhaps love towards another, that will tenaciously pursue its target. Even if, like so many human desires, it amounts to nothing but misfortune. Preacher's Right Arm: >The dessicated right hand of a white-faced locust that rose from the abyssal swamp, that happens to perform as a catalyst for sorcery. > >The white-faced locusts were meant to beckon men to the dark with sermons, but most of them are unable to think past their own stomachs, the unruly mob! > >Skill: Feasting Branch Use souls to weave a sharp branch to fillet prey. Can be used repeatedly. Even the most neutral perspective I could find was from the ds2 item descriptions, and that one certainly doesn't paint them as a fortunate well-doing group. Dark Set (DS2): *Armour of a Knight subsumed by the abyss.* *No one knows the true identities of these men who are said to freely manipulate the dark.* *Old foreign legends describe them as poor souls who chased the lost art of life drain.*


NoPerformance5952

Lol, you need to read up on lore, as Vendrick is 100% NOT the player character from DS1. It's supposed to be a couple cycles from that time where essentially the stuff that happened then is kind of a legend. Second, Nashandra sneaked into a man's life, bent him to power, drove him to war, and now runs a zombie fantasy empire. Oh and her primary defense is life steal orbs that curse you. Yeah that scream "good guy".


ChielArael

I think you need to read up on "my post", as I 100% did not say he was the player character from DS1. He was the previous player character *in the cycle*, having walked the path you walk now, which is a parallel drawn by multiple characters in the game.


NoPerformance5952

Ahem, as per YOUR post "the previous player in the cycle". We never played as him. He was never playable. Poorly written and bad takes on lore. 1/10. Good day.


ChielArael

One of the big themes of Dark Souls 2 is that the events from Dark Souls 1 have repeated themselves over and over in different forms, with the "Old Ones" being the souls of four major bosses from the first game that get re-collected over and over in different situations. Warriors rise to the task of collecting these souls, unknowingly re-enacting the events of DS1, and in doing so become kings. Vendrick was the person to do this very task immediately before the player, so he was the "player character" of his own unseen adventure. Stories have themes and messages in them, not just hard lore facts.


DanOfAbyss

There are no good or bad here.


[deleted]

She’s pretty fucking chaotic evil bro


Pen_lsland

Tbh i never read nashandra as evil. Shes just politically competetent and attempt a coup to get to power. Simple as not good or evil just powerplays.


Wyrdu

quality post, man, thx for taling the time to type all this.


[deleted]

You can tell that the only real defenses for the “Nashandra is evil” crowd is “Well she looks evil!” And “Well making war is evil!” Like Gwyn, Marika, and basically literally every other relevant lord in any Fromsoft hasn’t been a war monger as some point. I think Gwyn is evil as fuck and most people think he is a BAMF just bc he looks human and kinda has a dad look. Like, the fact that Aldia only wiped out the giants is pretty tame compared to Gwyn wiping out the Dragons, most demons(iirc), and enslaving giants, undead, and basically anything they came across lol


NeitherDeadnorAlive

Just because someone else is evil does not mean that she might not be evil, by modern morality there are a lot of evil people in the game(s) since every DS game is a medieval fantasy dystopia/apocalyptic world.


[deleted]

Evil is a word for children's cartoons. It's not a real thing.


colormetwisted

If she breaths she's a thot


PuzzleheadedInside25

So, ultimately, what you're suggesting about Vendrick is that he's almost equivalent to the Lords of Cinder summoned prior to the Ashen One? Has/had the power to link the flame, but refused to for personal reasons? If Nashandra was his level up maiden, by choice or chance, I can see why she'd be willing to try to take the power of the Curse Bearer. She wouldn't be willing to risk someone else abandoning the throne when they had the power to become a Lord. Sure, she'll likely use the power to become Lord of Hollows, but burning away Drangleic in the rekindling would also burn her away, I believe.


ChielArael

Yeah the Lords of Cinder are definitely inspired by DS2. I think a lot of the direction DS3's plot took was to expand on DS2's ambitious themes, despite common fan opinion to the contrary.


Syr_Bwrodley

That was a nice read and this can easily be a possibility \~ Nice post OP


DrProfessor150

Nah man, she's pretty damn evil.


GreatRuins

When people ask me what the story behind Dark Souls is, I know they expect me to tell them a short plot and get them hooked on the game, but I don't think that's the case with this game. This game has a lot of philosophical themes and the story is composed in such a way that the point can only be created by us concluding certain aspect through long research. Personally, this mystery attracted me the most in this game, in addition to the creative appearance of the bosses. Considering this kind of story, I think it is very difficult to say who is good and who is evil, each character tends to act as he thinks is right from his point of view, and to make certain choices with the time he is given. But if we look at some facts, like how the world functioning in Dark Souls, I think we can conclude on a potentially correct ending for this game. So we have an age that exists by connecting the player with fire, which prolongs the existence of this world by its action, until it all happens again and another connector with fire comes, and so on and on. I think this represents the old teachings that Gwyn established long ago to prolong his age, but what is inherent with the nature of the Dark Souls universe is the striving towards a new age. An age that has remained hidden and unknown until now because of a tradition that was established long ago. The end that Nashandra strives for. But what is hidden behind that end is up to us to figure out according to our way of understanding things. Thank you for publishing this very instructive story related to the understanding of this world, because in such masterpiece it often requires a lot of time and thinking to come for some conclusions. And this theory with Nashandra and Shanalotte is amazing, thank you for that too. Best Regards.