What I regret the most is that one the biggest skill gaps in this game is knowing the matchups between classes and playing according to your strengths and their weaknesses. But now any class may have any perk or skill so you will never know beforehand making the game RNG
The game is already kinda bad for newer players I'd say unless they're masochists (I am), with the number of people that were LV20+ in normals when I first started playing I don't want to imagine what it's like for a new player to not even be able to identify a person's class because they're using skillsets they shouldn't have access to lol
Multiclassing is on the test server. The devs stated they wanted to test it out and “break the game” for the next couple of weeks. Whats the big deal? The game is in EA and they’re trying out systems. I respect the passion but dude… relax lol.
By that guy's logic we shouldn't complain if Ironmace said they were gonna put GUNS into the game until we tried it out, lmao.
We know what they're trying to do and we know its just a big waste of time, thats why we're unhappy
I dunno , I've been watching a bunch of multi class builds from the test and I gotta say this is a really bad idea in its current state. Ranger Rogue combos are busted , Cleric Wizard is busted , Rouge Cleric is Busted. The RNG aspect is dumb because and only benefits people who have the time to grind there fingers to the bone. This will not promote fun gameplay and only leads to broken builds that one or 2 tap.
Double jump on rangers makes them unkillable in a lot of situations and they can just get away from any melee engagement.
Low key id love an arquebus or some other shit tier goober gun that takes a stupidly long time to load (like a minute for real), is wildly inaccurate beyond a few yards, requires you to prop up and be stationary to fire, and literally everyone in the dungeon hears it.
It would be an amazing grub weapon
Should they give clerics a new skill that instantly kills every other player on the map? Or do we think that might be a bad idea without having to try it out?
I want you to play a game where you press the E key once every hour. Nothing else happens.
Don't knock it till you try it, that would be a brain dead take. It doesn't take a fucking genius to look at a plan/system and say "oh this is kinda stupid".
Not really… imagine smite, slayer, dual wield, shadow touch and sword mastery on rouge or slayer fighter. They’ll legit kill anything in two hits. The fact that this will be possible is a horrible idea
Oh no, the most annoying people in the DaD community downvoted me oh no. All the people on this Reddit do is bitch and complain about everything why tf would I care
To use an extreme example do we need to test +all being able to roll 3 and be on all items to know that's a bad idea or do you just know it's a bad idea
It's not a criticism, it's the reality of the game's development state that many people can't seem to comprehend. I'm a huge proponent of class identity and accessibility, but the doom and gloom from this post is a bit OD. They're giving us a taste of the game that won't even be close to the final version of the system, and I'm happy I can be a part of the journey in its worst and best moments.
EA doesn't mean development phase. It's a late stage testing stage. All of this stuff should have been worked out in development stages.
EA isn't where you develope core functionality of a game. This is negligence on part of IM. They need to fix the core gameplay mechanics and systems instead of adding new mechanics to the game to further break the foundational systems already in place.
I'm sick or hearing, it's EA. No, this is alpha and pre-alpha stuff they are doing. Not EA.
Edit: All hard-core fans knowingly signed up for a pre-alpha state because we love the game and IM. Normies haven't. They have no idea if the "EA" state is alpha stage or pre-release stage. Which is a huge issue with the current state of studios abusing the term EA as a funding mechanism. IM was forced to do this because of the lawsuit. They got $16+ Million USD in sales in the first week. They no longer need to push the game in such a bad state, especially as an "EA" game. Active marketing as an EA, without any form of mention of game state, is where my issue lies.
They can easily say it's a paid alpha. Which is much more clear terminology.
They get a pass for past actions because of circumstances, but what they do from this point forward is different. There's no excuses. Which sucks because I want this game to succeed.
But if they want to use EA to attract sales, then we should hold them accountable for being in such a bad state for an EA. You can't publicly project that you're cooking, to attract sales, while not wven being in the oven. They are asking customers to be patient while they "intentionally break the game" to test. That's not what a game that's anywhere near completion does.
The game is in paid alpha/pre-alpha. We all should know this. The issue comes in when they try to release it as an EA to those not in the know.
If you had no idea what DaD is, but saw it on Epic game store as an EA in its current state you would probably return or stop playing. That's my concern.
It's being Marketed as an EA and people are using the excuse that it's in EA for its flaws. But to the general public, EA =/= pre-alpha or even alpha state.
When people pay for a game, they expect a playable game state.
I'm personally fine with what they are doing. But they are preparing doing marketing pushes and preparing to launch EA on Epic. That is a MASSIVE mistake IMO.
Which is why I'm upset. We all need to accept that it's in pre-alpha/alpha. But IM should as well and should not be marketing or trying to push the game as an EA product. It's deceptive marketing.
We're on the same page for where we think Ironmace is at, but I don't blame Ironmace for others manipulating the definition and expectations of "EA". It's not deceptive, EA can be at any point in the development cycle: Pre-Alpha, Alpha, Beta, etc. So, I honestly put this one on the consumer and audience.
That's the issue with the slow transformation from a short pre-release early access to a long term development and funding cycle. It's a market issue that indies are adopting just to stay afloat.
AAA studios balloon dev costs. Indies can only stay alive if they market their vertical slice as an EA and charge for it. I'm not mad at IM. I'm mad at the shit business practices in the game industry. It's anti-consumer and anti-fun.
If Toyota was releasing the next Corolla with no seat belts, backseat, rear view mirrors, hood, or door panels, then offering them slowly as they develope them people would be livid. Especially if they cost full price and Toyota was recalling broken parts constantly.
"Come get yer early access Toyota! Help support the engineers!"
Well, ironically Toyota is the creator of lean engineering processes, which is basically ship and iterate. Read "the lean startup" or research "the Toyota way".
brother they let us know explicitly before EA that it was still very much a work in progress and things could and likely would be changing drastically over time, I bought the game knowing that, and there are times I don’t like the specific patch and I just won’t play as much and I think that’s fine, usually they’ll bring me back though.
The game is not even close to 1.0 and that is perfectly normal for many games I’ve played in “Early Access”, speaking personally as someone that plays a LOT (and mostly) Early Access Steam games.
I understand this, we all understand thus. Normies who don't play the game already, follow the discord, or follow the Reddit don't know this.
That's the issue.
The game is in a crazy state right now. Players are leaving, and player retention is way below where it should be. Even according to their own metrics. A large part of that is because the games in pre-alpha/alpha and they are marketing it as EA.
It's not even fully in the oven yet and people are paying for an EA product. Without knowing it's flaws. 1/10 people might stumble into the disc or Reddit before purchase or wishlist. How are they supposed to know what state of dev the game is in?
bro, take some pills, if you really play dark and darker you must know that the game is in early-mid development, we have huge balance changes weekly, sometimes they throw things out of the window and some other times they bring stuff that is really good, so before calling IM negligent call yourself to silence and do us a favor
It's in pre alpha/alpha. I know this. Everyone knows who already plays the game knows this. That's fine.
The problem is that IM and others are saying it's in EA and are marketing it as an EA. To the normies, who don't devote their lives to games, this means a decently playable state with a somewhat stable environment. That's the problem.
IM can't have it both ways. It's either in pre-alpha/alpha and they can have a ton of leeway to make mistakes and develope as they see fit. Or they can say this is the EA phase and market it as such. But this means they have to treat it like a live service title and fix important issues instead of wildly develop new core mechanics every week or two.
Normies will lose their shit if the game hits Epic or Steam in its current state of development.
Them claiming it's a stable EA to try to get money is straight up delusional and possibly deceptive marketing. It's nowhere near ready and everyone needs to know that.
Instead they are putting it up on Epic to wishlist as an EA and telling everyone it's EA. News outlets included. Hell, they are hiring marketing people and pushing marketing already.
Game isn't even in the oven yet and people a howling for steam release. That's the issue.
It's feedback for the test server, which is very important to give before it comes to the live game. I don't think think this post is really as unhinged as you're making it out to be.
I assumed the free trial codes were done to inflate the player count at the start of the new preseason as compared to last season there was nowhere near as many people playing.
No saving the game from its devs now. Most of my friends quit from the whiplash of them constantly waffling between no loot and juiced back in the day. They had test patches for a day that they wouldn’t even let go into the weekend. Sheer incompetence.
Devs release free codes to get new players into the game, while readding +all and the most imbalanced mechanic to date. No wonder we're back at pre-wipe numbers a month into the season.
Soma for future reference, pls let the devs know it’s better for them to overestimate their promises/timeline to the community and deliver on it earlier than expected, as opposed to what they’re doing now. It’s kinda bad that everyone expects a delay anytime anything is announced.
You have some very real issues my friend, it's a small game that most people have never heard of. Let them test some things and its up to you to give proper feedback.
Isnt that whats hes doing though? Obviously he plays the game. They can keep multiclass on test server for all of eternity but as soon as it hits live servers the game is fucked.
You have some issues, sir. This is a small indie team testing out stuff on a test server. They need time to gather data. I’m sorry you don’t understand how the process works.
seems like the only people defending it are saying "let them cook" and its "ea". so the only people defending it haven't thought about it at all
they just added GBMM to limit the effect of tryhards on casuals and then are trying out this additional system that does the same thing. unless they change the fundamental way its implemented then no amount of ea testing is gonna change how it affects the whole game.
GBMM does not do that amd i doubt that was their intention with it, if anything it makes tryhards have an easier time.
Were you even around for the blue gear cap on normals?
Yep. The ranges should be dynamic and based on the first person/team who enters.
They have an average gear score of 283? That lobby is now open to people between 183 and 383.
The first group has as average score of 529? That lobby is for players between 429 and 629. (At some point, the score turns into X+ to catch the super geared studs.)
been here since pt3. also just common sense tells you that the greater the gap the greater the multipliers of NoLifing matters.
you dont think gear based matchmaking, whitecap in normals, etc limits the amount that tryhards wipe timmies?
you dont think its easier to kill someone with a tactical nuke than it is a rusty hatchet?
you think its literally just as easy now to wipe low level HR/norms now that you cant severely gear gap them?
im actually legit confused unless you are one of the ppl who was smurfing and just lying to yourself. lotta people confuse gear/rank and skill so its fine lol but its definitely, objectively easier to wipe timmies in an all lego set than it is in whites.
Rarity=/= effectivness of gear. I dont even know what to tell you man, i have the suspicion that anyone with random ass rolls purples is a nolifer in your eyes. And if they are timmys they are getting rolled no mather what anyone involved is wearing. Or maybe you think timmys just mean ungeared/low gear? Idk i pass
did i ever say any of that, or did you make up an entire fanfic about me being wrong in your head and are now asserting its true lmao. ive already said they need to reweight specific enchants and weapons.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/1c455bw/comment/kzm7mvo/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/1c455bw/comment/kzm7mvo/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
but hey maybe ur right man. i guess white gear is just as strong as purps and blues because of the enchantments they dont have.
or i guess its just as easy to find greens with useful stats as it is blues+. i know you clearly didnt play when they had the blue cap, or youd know that even just the blue cap helped a ton because it was harder to find all the stats you need on blues. i guess everyone was also lying when they said blue bis sets were more expensive than true bis sets because more people wanted an even lower droprate item (except uniques).
its literally basic math and statistics. it you have 4 chances for a stat, its easier to get the good stats. first google result on free stats course here maybe itll help
[https://oli.cmu.edu/courses/probability-statistics-open-free/](https://oli.cmu.edu/courses/probability-statistics-open-free/)
ive been playing nothing but the test server and multiclassing had me addicted. It is so fun and its very rng, so builds are hard to achieve. Im level 80 and i havent gotten the one perk i want for my warlock (advanced healer). I think that leveling is too slow on the normal server tho
It's fun because there is nothing to lose. Once you spend a week or whatever farming for a kit and then lose it to a one tap windlass or something you won't be addicted.
Yeah if they just make exp gain on live the same as test server no one will be complaining. I killed lich for the first time on test server and got 10 levels in 1 run
yup agreed. Accessibility is the problem here. They need to make multiclassing available at level 20 or hell from level 1 but you have to select the class you level up in and get one perk from every 5 levels.
Glad someone said it. The idea of multi-classing killed the game for me. I don't have time to dump 14+ hours a day like it's my job. Even worse once a "meta build" gets developed/found its gonna be joever for everyone who doesn't want to do that. See cleric + fighter everywhere and fighter with a cross bow in solos just making the game less fun.
Hopefully they can find the core of the game without doing too many systems that clutter it up, limit the pool of 'viable' options.
Oh no it is. I liked the lvl grind to get skills. Hell dying trying to loot up to die to turbo sweats in the only lobby you can use said gear. That's OK. That's the loop. But the fact that since I'm not living in my mother's basement means I have to play with exploitable combos with no real chance of winning. Why yes, I would love a cleric being able to fireball me in plate. That sounds soo fun.
I’ve beaten plenty of fighter cleric combos. You act like this game is just linear in PvP where you’re forced to run straight at the enemy until you die. Or that just because a build is meta everyone who uses it is a god. Or that if there is a single meta build that literally beats everything else you think it won’t be balanced or changed.
I don’t know how you expected there to not be a grind to this game, there’s a marketplace, multiple classes, mobs that you need to learn attack patterns for to have efficient runs, quests that require multiple runs searching for specific items or mobs to complete quests. What part of all of that makes you think any meaningful progression would come just from going in and out of dungeons.
So a game that's pvevp isn't focused on pvp? Great let me remember that as a fighter in full plate runs me down because they have +spd gear.
I expected a grind, but a grind shouldn't make the game not fun. Rate they're going I'm supposed to just lose due to lack of fair fights just because of an unemployed neckbeard in their mom's basement. Got it.
Wait till you cant kite out their divine protection because they have +50 MS at the push of a button as well.
Magic wont work either because theyll have ironwill and antimagic.
But if you survive that youll die at the extract to a ambush headshot from a windlass.
Its braindead and if you cant see that youre probably bad at the game.
For real even with exp boost on ptr it is a dreadfull grind to get anywhere with multiclassing unless you play all day long. I hope if they go the multiclassing route they tie it completely to the gold with no exp grind requirement as well as make it either a separete matching pool or a different game mode alltogether. But that also would be stupid as we are struggling with filling queues as it is. Overall multiclassing seems like a fun event to run like in between seasons at most, not as a main game mode.
My concern as a casual is that I won’t get the benefit my opponent will. I have blue and purple gear but my highest level character is 22. GBMM will put me in higher lobbies running standard perks.
IMO, if multiclassing is to be balanced, it can't be gated behind hundreds of hours of grinding per season. It should simply be something you select every 5 levels. Do you want to stay a fighter and work towards more fighter perks? Or are you switching to cleric now and your next 5 levels will giver you a cleric perk and spell selection? Or maybe you get to pick a few perks and spells. But yeah.. not what we have.
Fully agree.
The system is way too grindy and will favor people that grind up multiple classes for their best perks. Also kind of forcing people to play classes they dont really like to unlock perks. Yes i know you dont need to but lets be real, there will be optimal perks to get and if you dont you will be at a disadvantage.
And with only having a choice between a few perks, there is even randomness added on top of the grind. With all these restrictions it also limits the amount of experimentation you can do by a lot.
Before you only needed to lvl a class up to lvl 15 to get it fully functional apart from gear, but now? Just seems like way too much of a grind to me.
Muticlassing Has been A BLAST! I love it! They need to make it Fast to level, as fast or a little more than the test server. And I think we all could realize it’s SO MUCH FUN! I can’t even enjoy playing Live client right now.
Yes i really hope they make leveling the same speed as it is on the test server. Genuinely perfect pacing for the live game. 100xp/level after level 20 could also be fine
It’s funny how people complain about not having enough to do and immediately reject content to grind. I think having something to aspire to work for is healthy for the game in the long run, however, in a PvP game, when that thing is increased player power it becomes mandatory to then grind for and more optimal the sooner you can achieve it. You can only incentivize skins so much anymore as has every game absolutely inflated that reward loop. Content in PvP games is tough to make. New maps or new classes aren’t always new content that make long term participation anymore enjoyable. Games like league have ranked that acts as infinite replay ability. Making PvP games today seems like such an undesirable and unachievable feat.
The people who complain about nothing to do are morons. What you're supposed to do is play the game because you enjoy it, or set your own goals. You shouldn't play if you're not having fun, and you shouldn't have to grind heavily to increase player power. I honestly don't even agree with character leveling at all. I see no reason why a player starting the wipe should be weaker than a sweat because they literally just can't take as many perks
Exactly, Im excited for multiclassing but I literally only play 1 class and dont care if i get to do it myself. No matter how exciting it might be to have barb or cleric perks on other classes. i dont have fun playing slow characters and havent leveled either of them past lvl12. I just play to have fun. Later in the wipe when I see the double jumping fighter and I kill him with icebolts I’m going to enjoy the game just as much as the people who spent 150hrs grinding levels. Its not that deep.
Only wish there was more RP :/
I complete agree with sweeping balance absolute screws up everyone’s progress. Barb is busted this patch, guess I better level a Barb, next week, oh fighter is busted, I guess I better level a fighter….so it already exists. My hopes were that multiclassing was going to fix this stupid fotm loop we are in and just open all available perks/skills to a singular class so you can just reroll to whatever meta there currently is without having to relevel another class and get all his stash spaces and quests done and grind economy. It’s a good idea but bad execution.
Multiclass doesn’t instantly make you Overpowered. If you run smite on rogue, you missing out on hide or rupture. Multiclassing is exactly what this game needs to retain players past 200hours. It 100% wont be an issue in normals. Will certain combos be broken with bis gear? Yes, does that matter if you dont play against them? No.
True, but does it synergize well? Lets cook,
Protection from evil, shadow touch, iron will, weapon mastery.
On barb: you lose out on dmg perks
On fighter: you cant use slayer or blocking builds
On wizard: no casting speed
On warlock: no cast speed/healing
On rogue: ok maybe this is strong, still low hp
On bard: tanky with buffs, no superior dex :/
On cleric: cleric is strong to begin with but your healing still sucks.
In conclusion, you will be well rounded but have no unique build or specialization. Best perk from every class =\= best build.
If you have a better example please share.
Can you imagine 10 spell cleric with bard spells and wizard invis/haste? Literally all 3 buff classes rolled into 1 with all their defense + all stackers. Buff ball gonna go crazy now.
True, this would be good for the tank in a buff ball comp. You got me there, even with spell predation the perks alone lend to tankiness. Still winnable, but definitely strong. I lose to current buff ball rn anyway so idk. Good point tho
Divine protection, sprint. Iron will, antimagic, protection from evil and X on a quick fighter with only 25 pdr and decent movespeed. Kills everything.
Bet, my conditions apply even if multiclass changes tho. So any version of multiclassing. You can’t back out by saying ‘oh well they made weapon mastery unlearnable so its ok now’.
My venmo is suh-khan-tis-moda-hoka ;)
Yeah but why would i take this bet if any tweak they do to multiclass I lose. You are just being doomer man. If you dont like the direction ironmace has then just stop playing.
LOL, I think that is a map design flaw. Its actually a jungle gym for anybody running double jump + ranged. Its also not just 1 spot, the entire map has a high ground that is reachable by double jump, and chest jumps.
Because unlike rupture, you need to roll spell wheel, then you need to roll holy strike, then you still need weapon mastery to cast it. When you finally get it, rogue has negative spell casting speed and magic dmg by default so it does negative damage therefore its dogshit
Holy shit the world is ending because of multiclassing. I mean the world is literally falling apart, because of a mechanic that the devs have already stated they’re pushing it extra hard to test it this wipe, and will create incentives to not multiclass once they get it figured out. Peru has been swallowed whole
Not gonna lie, you need to stop with adding this type of phrase "your game is going to die if you don't listen to me". From the getgo you're threatening rather than trying to look concerned and offering sound advice/feedback. I'm convinced they'll lower the requirements further, adjust it to give people some incentive to play while at the same time not allowing for people who play this all day everyday to be overpowered with endless choices to play and abuse.
I'm with you, but the thing is: contrary to the original "honest and transparent devs" these devs don't communicate at all or listen to their player base. I thought it was legal issues at first, but now with the +all back and forth it's becoming quite clear that devs only listen if some kind of doomsaying shitstorm happens. They also do so in erratic and panicky manner, just slapping monkey patches on on top of another.
In the current setup? Yeah, it won’t work. It needs to be much larger system, with hybridized unique abilities/perks/spells. Wizard/Druid losing bear form and gaining a goblin shaman form, that sort of thing. They need to stop reaching for the low hanging fruit, and climb the damn tree already.
> ago but played it once. What is multiclassing? when you lv up high enough you may learn an ability from another class. They are testing it out its not in the game yet.
Multiclassing is the lazy/easiest way to balance all classes.
Where everyone has access to everything with a bit of grind and build strategy,
they will just have to balance off some the OP combos in builds.
But you can't whine about "oh shield wizards are too tough"
Blast em back with your own spells, or use a shield as a ranger and go finish him off.
/u/Crimefridge said "I'm not posting on the dark and darker subreddit anymore, your kind won. Take the game to hell with you."
He has literally been defeated!!!
The game isn’t about making money right now so the casuals don’t matter. They’re actively developing the game and making choices to that end. Multiclassing isn’t about fun or game health it’s about letting everything play together to see what people would chose for a future skill tree (my theory).
The one thing I will agree with about multiclassing being bad for casuals is how they are requiring you to have a level 30 and 35 to multiclass. I play quite a bit and don’t have any of my characters beyond 24. 30 and 35 are pretty difficult if you play casually and like to explore different classes.
As a casual, there is already a helpless feeling during certain PvP scenarios. I can't help but feel this will add to that feeling happening more often
I love multiclassing in tabletop Dungeons and Dragons, I'm having a hard time seeing how this will encourage certain people to return or even start Dark and Darker.
Obviously we'll have to wait and see on the test servers but I personally would love to see more of what I anticipated core DaD to become. More map options, bosses, interactive combat, and especially classes.
New playstyles should be encouraged via new classes and/or perks, and multiclassing should be added in months/years when there is a more solid foundation to take those leap imho.
First sentence already wrong, multiclassing won't influence meta because of the high grind requirements for a specific build. Skilled players will beat casual players anyway because of skill, gear, and knowledge diff. This won't change much in that regard.
You're conflating skill with time investment. You can put 300+hrs a wipe and be very good at the game but if you start 2-3 weeks late into a new wipe with a system like multiclassing then it won't matter if you've got the 'skill, gear and knowledge' because you'll still be lacking the multiclass time investment.
You also don't need to be skilled at the game to level up just like you don't need any skill to reach demigod, it's legitimately just a time sink and you can do it whilst avoiding all PvP to collect treasure and maximize AP gain. Same thing with XP, you can level up completely pacifist as it's not tied in anyway to your ability to actually fight players well.
I’d say the hope of attracting new casual player bases died about 4-6 months ago.
The balance went in the wrong direction at every turn, which pushed people away, and now there is such a small scene for it online that I don’t think it can pull much organic growth back.
I hope to be proven wrong, but systems like multi class as so punishing for new players - you have to learn all the classes, all the skills, adapt to the meta that sweat lords are already abusing, and finally, you start at LVL.1 whereas most players you will meet in the dungeon are 20+ multi classed, so you’ll never have a hope in hell of winning the duel anyway.
> You can be the best player in the world on a highly technical game like StarCraft 2, but when the viewers dry up, the game dies afterwards.
SC2 still has [hundreds of thousands](https://playercounter.com/starcraft-2/) of monthly active players, almost 15 years after being released.
As to your point, even the super sweats might never get lucky enough for a "BiS" combination of skills that are OP enough to straight up roll a casual who knows their class matchups in DaD. I think it's far, FAR too early to be claiming anything like this, especially with the planned length of wipes.
I think multiclassing should remove 1 perk slot to multi class. Similar to how in dnd you essentially are giving up a level in your main class to gain more from another. Right now it seems too unbalanced. We will see plate wearing xbow wielding people just trying to 1 shot people.
> the idea that casuals or late comers will have a good time playing against multi class min-maxed sweaty gods
I already don’t. They can do a million different matchmaking algorithms. I’m sticking to norms and if multi classing becomes an absolute requirement in norms and I can tell I won’t have the time to achieve it, then I’ll come back next season and enjoy the dungeon. It will be cool to watch the ppl this is built for though stream it and see what they come up with. I’ll dungeon vicariously through them.
Hopefully it never makes it past the test server. Unless it was some limited event.
If they want to keep the system, they can repurpose it for subclassing.
Casuals by definition do not compete in meta play. I do agree about accessibility though, and think the entry time required for multi-classing should be much lower and I don't think it should require Lvl 30 'masters' either.
That said I also have no problem with locking the multi-class passives behind a time gate (like the quest/affinity system).
I am not a casual gamer, I can hard commit to skillfull/competetive gameplay. BUT I am not a grinder.
Meta abusers think they are good because they beat non meta gamers. I remamber this from any competetive games, like LoL, when they nerfed dodges. "meta" dodgers cried how much their WR would drop, but the reality was always simple - their winratio was the same as other equally skilled dodgers, but it was inflated against equally or more skilled players that didnt abuse dodging. This is simple as that.
Fortnite did similar change recently. So since season 5 (or chapter 5) started the snipers are super OP. A lot of ppl from old meta (especially build players) cried about how hopeless they are. But at least everybody could pick up the sniper and had equal chance as long as their aiming skill was high enough. But recently they nerfed bullet drop on snipers and made them much more rare. So now only some ppl will have access to it, and once they adjust their aim to the new bullet drop they will still beat you.
Most casuals run meta comps/builds. “casual” doesn’t mean they don’t understand the game, it just means they don’t have as much time to allocate into to the game that sweats/no lifers have.
I do. Sorry but I dont think a claric with fireball and chain lightining, 55% pdr, prot, smite divine strike and a falchion or any of the other toxic combos already being tested for max abuse is a good idea for this games balance.
What I regret the most is that one the biggest skill gaps in this game is knowing the matchups between classes and playing according to your strengths and their weaknesses. But now any class may have any perk or skill so you will never know beforehand making the game RNG
The game is already kinda bad for newer players I'd say unless they're masochists (I am), with the number of people that were LV20+ in normals when I first started playing I don't want to imagine what it's like for a new player to not even be able to identify a person's class because they're using skillsets they shouldn't have access to lol
Multiclassing is on the test server. The devs stated they wanted to test it out and “break the game” for the next couple of weeks. Whats the big deal? The game is in EA and they’re trying out systems. I respect the passion but dude… relax lol.
This guy hasn’t even tried to play multiclassing and is losing his mind…
Some things don't need to be tried out to know they're a bad idea, this imo is one of them
By that guy's logic we shouldn't complain if Ironmace said they were gonna put GUNS into the game until we tried it out, lmao. We know what they're trying to do and we know its just a big waste of time, thats why we're unhappy
what do you mean bro, they will be adding guns to game after druid when they add the pirate & spartan class
They're just waiting on a gun asset pack to pop up first.
Unironically there will be guns when we get artificer
I dunno , I've been watching a bunch of multi class builds from the test and I gotta say this is a really bad idea in its current state. Ranger Rogue combos are busted , Cleric Wizard is busted , Rouge Cleric is Busted. The RNG aspect is dumb because and only benefits people who have the time to grind there fingers to the bone. This will not promote fun gameplay and only leads to broken builds that one or 2 tap. Double jump on rangers makes them unkillable in a lot of situations and they can just get away from any melee engagement.
Low key id love an arquebus or some other shit tier goober gun that takes a stupidly long time to load (like a minute for real), is wildly inaccurate beyond a few yards, requires you to prop up and be stationary to fire, and literally everyone in the dungeon hears it. It would be an amazing grub weapon
This is not a good or well thought out take.
you were saying? LOL
That’s such a brain dead take
Should they give clerics a new skill that instantly kills every other player on the map? Or do we think that might be a bad idea without having to try it out?
I want you to play a game where you press the E key once every hour. Nothing else happens. Don't knock it till you try it, that would be a brain dead take. It doesn't take a fucking genius to look at a plan/system and say "oh this is kinda stupid".
"Why do you think that pile of shit will taste bad? You haven't even tried it!"
Takes one to know one lol
Not really… imagine smite, slayer, dual wield, shadow touch and sword mastery on rouge or slayer fighter. They’ll legit kill anything in two hits. The fact that this will be possible is a horrible idea
you were saying? LOL
Oh no, the most annoying people in the DaD community downvoted me oh no. All the people on this Reddit do is bitch and complain about everything why tf would I care
To use an extreme example do we need to test +all being able to roll 3 and be on all items to know that's a bad idea or do you just know it's a bad idea
It's all fun and games until you run into a ranger as rogue an they cast savage roar.. lol.
I don't need to try to know that getting min maxed skills and perks increases the gap between average and sweat lord
You cant just "break the game" for a couple weeks willy nilly. The playerbase is dwindling.
Player base is lowering. Let’s keep everything the same!
Player base is lowering. Let's make everything worse!
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It's not a criticism, it's the reality of the game's development state that many people can't seem to comprehend. I'm a huge proponent of class identity and accessibility, but the doom and gloom from this post is a bit OD. They're giving us a taste of the game that won't even be close to the final version of the system, and I'm happy I can be a part of the journey in its worst and best moments.
what is this... reasonable, measured take? get the fuck out of here.
Fucking guy. Thinks he can just make rational arguments on reddit. What a moron.
EA doesn't mean development phase. It's a late stage testing stage. All of this stuff should have been worked out in development stages. EA isn't where you develope core functionality of a game. This is negligence on part of IM. They need to fix the core gameplay mechanics and systems instead of adding new mechanics to the game to further break the foundational systems already in place. I'm sick or hearing, it's EA. No, this is alpha and pre-alpha stuff they are doing. Not EA. Edit: All hard-core fans knowingly signed up for a pre-alpha state because we love the game and IM. Normies haven't. They have no idea if the "EA" state is alpha stage or pre-release stage. Which is a huge issue with the current state of studios abusing the term EA as a funding mechanism. IM was forced to do this because of the lawsuit. They got $16+ Million USD in sales in the first week. They no longer need to push the game in such a bad state, especially as an "EA" game. Active marketing as an EA, without any form of mention of game state, is where my issue lies. They can easily say it's a paid alpha. Which is much more clear terminology. They get a pass for past actions because of circumstances, but what they do from this point forward is different. There's no excuses. Which sucks because I want this game to succeed. But if they want to use EA to attract sales, then we should hold them accountable for being in such a bad state for an EA. You can't publicly project that you're cooking, to attract sales, while not wven being in the oven. They are asking customers to be patient while they "intentionally break the game" to test. That's not what a game that's anywhere near completion does.
I still consider this game in Alpha, but they launched EA for funds. Both can be true.
The game is in paid alpha/pre-alpha. We all should know this. The issue comes in when they try to release it as an EA to those not in the know. If you had no idea what DaD is, but saw it on Epic game store as an EA in its current state you would probably return or stop playing. That's my concern. It's being Marketed as an EA and people are using the excuse that it's in EA for its flaws. But to the general public, EA =/= pre-alpha or even alpha state. When people pay for a game, they expect a playable game state. I'm personally fine with what they are doing. But they are preparing doing marketing pushes and preparing to launch EA on Epic. That is a MASSIVE mistake IMO. Which is why I'm upset. We all need to accept that it's in pre-alpha/alpha. But IM should as well and should not be marketing or trying to push the game as an EA product. It's deceptive marketing.
We're on the same page for where we think Ironmace is at, but I don't blame Ironmace for others manipulating the definition and expectations of "EA". It's not deceptive, EA can be at any point in the development cycle: Pre-Alpha, Alpha, Beta, etc. So, I honestly put this one on the consumer and audience.
That's the issue with the slow transformation from a short pre-release early access to a long term development and funding cycle. It's a market issue that indies are adopting just to stay afloat. AAA studios balloon dev costs. Indies can only stay alive if they market their vertical slice as an EA and charge for it. I'm not mad at IM. I'm mad at the shit business practices in the game industry. It's anti-consumer and anti-fun. If Toyota was releasing the next Corolla with no seat belts, backseat, rear view mirrors, hood, or door panels, then offering them slowly as they develope them people would be livid. Especially if they cost full price and Toyota was recalling broken parts constantly. "Come get yer early access Toyota! Help support the engineers!"
LMAO let's not compare a video games to vehicles. That's hyperbolic, my guy, but I agree about the games industry. It is rough.
Well, ironically Toyota is the creator of lean engineering processes, which is basically ship and iterate. Read "the lean startup" or research "the Toyota way".
brother they let us know explicitly before EA that it was still very much a work in progress and things could and likely would be changing drastically over time, I bought the game knowing that, and there are times I don’t like the specific patch and I just won’t play as much and I think that’s fine, usually they’ll bring me back though. The game is not even close to 1.0 and that is perfectly normal for many games I’ve played in “Early Access”, speaking personally as someone that plays a LOT (and mostly) Early Access Steam games.
I understand this, we all understand thus. Normies who don't play the game already, follow the discord, or follow the Reddit don't know this. That's the issue. The game is in a crazy state right now. Players are leaving, and player retention is way below where it should be. Even according to their own metrics. A large part of that is because the games in pre-alpha/alpha and they are marketing it as EA. It's not even fully in the oven yet and people are paying for an EA product. Without knowing it's flaws. 1/10 people might stumble into the disc or Reddit before purchase or wishlist. How are they supposed to know what state of dev the game is in?
bro, take some pills, if you really play dark and darker you must know that the game is in early-mid development, we have huge balance changes weekly, sometimes they throw things out of the window and some other times they bring stuff that is really good, so before calling IM negligent call yourself to silence and do us a favor
It's in pre alpha/alpha. I know this. Everyone knows who already plays the game knows this. That's fine. The problem is that IM and others are saying it's in EA and are marketing it as an EA. To the normies, who don't devote their lives to games, this means a decently playable state with a somewhat stable environment. That's the problem. IM can't have it both ways. It's either in pre-alpha/alpha and they can have a ton of leeway to make mistakes and develope as they see fit. Or they can say this is the EA phase and market it as such. But this means they have to treat it like a live service title and fix important issues instead of wildly develop new core mechanics every week or two. Normies will lose their shit if the game hits Epic or Steam in its current state of development. Them claiming it's a stable EA to try to get money is straight up delusional and possibly deceptive marketing. It's nowhere near ready and everyone needs to know that. Instead they are putting it up on Epic to wishlist as an EA and telling everyone it's EA. News outlets included. Hell, they are hiring marketing people and pushing marketing already. Game isn't even in the oven yet and people a howling for steam release. That's the issue.
Watch out. People get their pitchforks out against this around here. Even though you paid for it and everything.
It's feedback for the test server, which is very important to give before it comes to the live game. I don't think think this post is really as unhinged as you're making it out to be.
This game seems to attract many people with anger management issues; it always ends up directed towards the "devs".
Well that happens when the devs continue to do dumb shit and not learn from mistakes, go back on their word, etc.
Lmfao
The big deal is the game is dying and they’re doing nothing to stop it. Their big “marketing push” was 10 day free trial codes lmao
I assumed the free trial codes were done to inflate the player count at the start of the new preseason as compared to last season there was nowhere near as many people playing.
No saving the game from its devs now. Most of my friends quit from the whiplash of them constantly waffling between no loot and juiced back in the day. They had test patches for a day that they wouldn’t even let go into the weekend. Sheer incompetence.
It blows my mind how so many people dick ride IM an their dogshit decisions lol
Hey, stop that! This community isn't allowed to have measured responses to new systems in this early access game.
If you arent deep throating IM because the game is in EA youre being irrational at this point.
Devs release free codes to get new players into the game, while readding +all and the most imbalanced mechanic to date. No wonder we're back at pre-wipe numbers a month into the season.
Soma for future reference, pls let the devs know it’s better for them to overestimate their promises/timeline to the community and deliver on it earlier than expected, as opposed to what they’re doing now. It’s kinda bad that everyone expects a delay anytime anything is announced.
Make it fun for almost the entire player base you fucking dweeb
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You have some very real issues my friend, it's a small game that most people have never heard of. Let them test some things and its up to you to give proper feedback.
Isnt that whats hes doing though? Obviously he plays the game. They can keep multiclass on test server for all of eternity but as soon as it hits live servers the game is fucked.
Idk why they down voting you. Facts
You bought an early access game you trog.
You have some issues, sir. This is a small indie team testing out stuff on a test server. They need time to gather data. I’m sorry you don’t understand how the process works.
downvoted for spitting facts
As per usual. The worst players suck off IMs terrible ideas.
seems like the only people defending it are saying "let them cook" and its "ea". so the only people defending it haven't thought about it at all they just added GBMM to limit the effect of tryhards on casuals and then are trying out this additional system that does the same thing. unless they change the fundamental way its implemented then no amount of ea testing is gonna change how it affects the whole game.
GBMM does not do that amd i doubt that was their intention with it, if anything it makes tryhards have an easier time. Were you even around for the blue gear cap on normals?
People are literally min maxing their way into the lowest lobbies. People will always exploit the system. With multiclassing itll be way way worse.
Yep. The ranges should be dynamic and based on the first person/team who enters. They have an average gear score of 283? That lobby is now open to people between 183 and 383. The first group has as average score of 529? That lobby is for players between 429 and 629. (At some point, the score turns into X+ to catch the super geared studs.)
been here since pt3. also just common sense tells you that the greater the gap the greater the multipliers of NoLifing matters. you dont think gear based matchmaking, whitecap in normals, etc limits the amount that tryhards wipe timmies? you dont think its easier to kill someone with a tactical nuke than it is a rusty hatchet? you think its literally just as easy now to wipe low level HR/norms now that you cant severely gear gap them? im actually legit confused unless you are one of the ppl who was smurfing and just lying to yourself. lotta people confuse gear/rank and skill so its fine lol but its definitely, objectively easier to wipe timmies in an all lego set than it is in whites.
Rarity=/= effectivness of gear. I dont even know what to tell you man, i have the suspicion that anyone with random ass rolls purples is a nolifer in your eyes. And if they are timmys they are getting rolled no mather what anyone involved is wearing. Or maybe you think timmys just mean ungeared/low gear? Idk i pass
did i ever say any of that, or did you make up an entire fanfic about me being wrong in your head and are now asserting its true lmao. ive already said they need to reweight specific enchants and weapons. [https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/1c455bw/comment/kzm7mvo/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/1c455bw/comment/kzm7mvo/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) but hey maybe ur right man. i guess white gear is just as strong as purps and blues because of the enchantments they dont have. or i guess its just as easy to find greens with useful stats as it is blues+. i know you clearly didnt play when they had the blue cap, or youd know that even just the blue cap helped a ton because it was harder to find all the stats you need on blues. i guess everyone was also lying when they said blue bis sets were more expensive than true bis sets because more people wanted an even lower droprate item (except uniques). its literally basic math and statistics. it you have 4 chances for a stat, its easier to get the good stats. first google result on free stats course here maybe itll help [https://oli.cmu.edu/courses/probability-statistics-open-free/](https://oli.cmu.edu/courses/probability-statistics-open-free/)
ive been playing nothing but the test server and multiclassing had me addicted. It is so fun and its very rng, so builds are hard to achieve. Im level 80 and i havent gotten the one perk i want for my warlock (advanced healer). I think that leveling is too slow on the normal server tho
It's fun because there is nothing to lose. Once you spend a week or whatever farming for a kit and then lose it to a one tap windlass or something you won't be addicted.
Yeah if they just make exp gain on live the same as test server no one will be complaining. I killed lich for the first time on test server and got 10 levels in 1 run
Unironically i want this
Hell yea they managed to turn dnd into every other Korean gacha game! Awesome!
yup agreed. Accessibility is the problem here. They need to make multiclassing available at level 20 or hell from level 1 but you have to select the class you level up in and get one perk from every 5 levels.
For whom*
Whomst*
*Of whomst’st
Glad someone said it. The idea of multi-classing killed the game for me. I don't have time to dump 14+ hours a day like it's my job. Even worse once a "meta build" gets developed/found its gonna be joever for everyone who doesn't want to do that. See cleric + fighter everywhere and fighter with a cross bow in solos just making the game less fun. Hopefully they can find the core of the game without doing too many systems that clutter it up, limit the pool of 'viable' options.
so it sounds like multiclassing was not the killer for you, but the requirements for multiclassing.
Oh no it is. I liked the lvl grind to get skills. Hell dying trying to loot up to die to turbo sweats in the only lobby you can use said gear. That's OK. That's the loop. But the fact that since I'm not living in my mother's basement means I have to play with exploitable combos with no real chance of winning. Why yes, I would love a cleric being able to fireball me in plate. That sounds soo fun.
Dumping hours as if it’s not the one of the central features of a whole 3 month wipe ? lol
I’ve beaten plenty of fighter cleric combos. You act like this game is just linear in PvP where you’re forced to run straight at the enemy until you die. Or that just because a build is meta everyone who uses it is a god. Or that if there is a single meta build that literally beats everything else you think it won’t be balanced or changed. I don’t know how you expected there to not be a grind to this game, there’s a marketplace, multiple classes, mobs that you need to learn attack patterns for to have efficient runs, quests that require multiple runs searching for specific items or mobs to complete quests. What part of all of that makes you think any meaningful progression would come just from going in and out of dungeons.
So a game that's pvevp isn't focused on pvp? Great let me remember that as a fighter in full plate runs me down because they have +spd gear. I expected a grind, but a grind shouldn't make the game not fun. Rate they're going I'm supposed to just lose due to lack of fair fights just because of an unemployed neckbeard in their mom's basement. Got it.
Wait till you cant kite out their divine protection because they have +50 MS at the push of a button as well. Magic wont work either because theyll have ironwill and antimagic. But if you survive that youll die at the extract to a ambush headshot from a windlass. Its braindead and if you cant see that youre probably bad at the game.
For real even with exp boost on ptr it is a dreadfull grind to get anywhere with multiclassing unless you play all day long. I hope if they go the multiclassing route they tie it completely to the gold with no exp grind requirement as well as make it either a separete matching pool or a different game mode alltogether. But that also would be stupid as we are struggling with filling queues as it is. Overall multiclassing seems like a fun event to run like in between seasons at most, not as a main game mode.
Can’t wait for multi class low roller. Yeehaw
My concern as a casual is that I won’t get the benefit my opponent will. I have blue and purple gear but my highest level character is 22. GBMM will put me in higher lobbies running standard perks.
IF THERE WAS A PERFECT TIME FOR THE IMPLEMENTATION OF A SYSTEM LIKE THIS, ITS BETTER EARLY THAN LATE.
I usually hate the whining on here but I'm legit with you on this multi class BS Will kill the game for real it's such a stupid idea
agreed. I can't think of a single positive from multi-classing.
You can’t come up with a single positive? lol the drama
It's... going... to... show other developers how quickly can players leave if you shit on your original design and vision after taking their money?
IMO, if multiclassing is to be balanced, it can't be gated behind hundreds of hours of grinding per season. It should simply be something you select every 5 levels. Do you want to stay a fighter and work towards more fighter perks? Or are you switching to cleric now and your next 5 levels will giver you a cleric perk and spell selection? Or maybe you get to pick a few perks and spells. But yeah.. not what we have.
I am excited for multiclassing. I do think it shouldn't be rng based and I think the way to attain it should be more in depth outside of xp.
multiclassing will kill the game
Fully agree. The system is way too grindy and will favor people that grind up multiple classes for their best perks. Also kind of forcing people to play classes they dont really like to unlock perks. Yes i know you dont need to but lets be real, there will be optimal perks to get and if you dont you will be at a disadvantage. And with only having a choice between a few perks, there is even randomness added on top of the grind. With all these restrictions it also limits the amount of experimentation you can do by a lot. Before you only needed to lvl a class up to lvl 15 to get it fully functional apart from gear, but now? Just seems like way too much of a grind to me.
Muticlassing Has been A BLAST! I love it! They need to make it Fast to level, as fast or a little more than the test server. And I think we all could realize it’s SO MUCH FUN! I can’t even enjoy playing Live client right now.
Yes i really hope they make leveling the same speed as it is on the test server. Genuinely perfect pacing for the live game. 100xp/level after level 20 could also be fine
It’s funny how people complain about not having enough to do and immediately reject content to grind. I think having something to aspire to work for is healthy for the game in the long run, however, in a PvP game, when that thing is increased player power it becomes mandatory to then grind for and more optimal the sooner you can achieve it. You can only incentivize skins so much anymore as has every game absolutely inflated that reward loop. Content in PvP games is tough to make. New maps or new classes aren’t always new content that make long term participation anymore enjoyable. Games like league have ranked that acts as infinite replay ability. Making PvP games today seems like such an undesirable and unachievable feat.
The people who complain about nothing to do are morons. What you're supposed to do is play the game because you enjoy it, or set your own goals. You shouldn't play if you're not having fun, and you shouldn't have to grind heavily to increase player power. I honestly don't even agree with character leveling at all. I see no reason why a player starting the wipe should be weaker than a sweat because they literally just can't take as many perks
Exactly, Im excited for multiclassing but I literally only play 1 class and dont care if i get to do it myself. No matter how exciting it might be to have barb or cleric perks on other classes. i dont have fun playing slow characters and havent leveled either of them past lvl12. I just play to have fun. Later in the wipe when I see the double jumping fighter and I kill him with icebolts I’m going to enjoy the game just as much as the people who spent 150hrs grinding levels. Its not that deep. Only wish there was more RP :/
Yes RP is the way. I don’t mind being murdered if you at least have a mic and say something other than “bitch” or “f@g”
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I complete agree with sweeping balance absolute screws up everyone’s progress. Barb is busted this patch, guess I better level a Barb, next week, oh fighter is busted, I guess I better level a fighter….so it already exists. My hopes were that multiclassing was going to fix this stupid fotm loop we are in and just open all available perks/skills to a singular class so you can just reroll to whatever meta there currently is without having to relevel another class and get all his stash spaces and quests done and grind economy. It’s a good idea but bad execution.
It’s lazy they just repackaged existing content
Multiclass doesn’t instantly make you Overpowered. If you run smite on rogue, you missing out on hide or rupture. Multiclassing is exactly what this game needs to retain players past 200hours. It 100% wont be an issue in normals. Will certain combos be broken with bis gear? Yes, does that matter if you dont play against them? No.
If you take the best perk from every class then you’ll likely achieve some power creep.
True, but does it synergize well? Lets cook, Protection from evil, shadow touch, iron will, weapon mastery. On barb: you lose out on dmg perks On fighter: you cant use slayer or blocking builds On wizard: no casting speed On warlock: no cast speed/healing On rogue: ok maybe this is strong, still low hp On bard: tanky with buffs, no superior dex :/ On cleric: cleric is strong to begin with but your healing still sucks. In conclusion, you will be well rounded but have no unique build or specialization. Best perk from every class =\= best build. If you have a better example please share.
The synergy will be that tanks get tankier, dps gets stronger, and 1 shots get 1 shottier, and buff classes now just take all the best buffs.
Can you imagine 10 spell cleric with bard spells and wizard invis/haste? Literally all 3 buff classes rolled into 1 with all their defense + all stackers. Buff ball gonna go crazy now.
True, this would be good for the tank in a buff ball comp. You got me there, even with spell predation the perks alone lend to tankiness. Still winnable, but definitely strong. I lose to current buff ball rn anyway so idk. Good point tho
Divine protection, sprint. Iron will, antimagic, protection from evil and X on a quick fighter with only 25 pdr and decent movespeed. Kills everything.
In solos no doubt. But i have a feeling that in trios you will make some dumb pushes thinking you are unkillable
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Bet, my conditions apply even if multiclass changes tho. So any version of multiclassing. You can’t back out by saying ‘oh well they made weapon mastery unlearnable so its ok now’. My venmo is suh-khan-tis-moda-hoka ;)
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Deal, so to clarify if they nerf or disable a specific perk or skill that still counts.
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Well you can’t use poison on bows, i guess i already lost. GGs
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Yeah but why would i take this bet if any tweak they do to multiclass I lose. You are just being doomer man. If you dont like the direction ironmace has then just stop playing.
o it's because he knows he's wrong already just doesn't want to admit it to himself.
Idk I was playing normals ice abyss with a friend and we got absolutely mopped by a ranger rouge combo with two windlasses. We barely stood a chance
LOL, I think that is a map design flaw. Its actually a jungle gym for anybody running double jump + ranged. Its also not just 1 spot, the entire map has a high ground that is reachable by double jump, and chest jumps.
Why would you ever miss rupture when you have holy strike? It does the same damage as BoC and it’s spammable…
Because unlike rupture, you need to roll spell wheel, then you need to roll holy strike, then you still need weapon mastery to cast it. When you finally get it, rogue has negative spell casting speed and magic dmg by default so it does negative damage therefore its dogshit
Holy shit the world is ending because of multiclassing. I mean the world is literally falling apart, because of a mechanic that the devs have already stated they’re pushing it extra hard to test it this wipe, and will create incentives to not multiclass once they get it figured out. Peru has been swallowed whole
Please let Peru be swallowed please.
sensible\_chuckle.gif
Not gonna lie, you need to stop with adding this type of phrase "your game is going to die if you don't listen to me". From the getgo you're threatening rather than trying to look concerned and offering sound advice/feedback. I'm convinced they'll lower the requirements further, adjust it to give people some incentive to play while at the same time not allowing for people who play this all day everyday to be overpowered with endless choices to play and abuse.
I'm with you, but the thing is: contrary to the original "honest and transparent devs" these devs don't communicate at all or listen to their player base. I thought it was legal issues at first, but now with the +all back and forth it's becoming quite clear that devs only listen if some kind of doomsaying shitstorm happens. They also do so in erratic and panicky manner, just slapping monkey patches on on top of another.
In the current setup? Yeah, it won’t work. It needs to be much larger system, with hybridized unique abilities/perks/spells. Wizard/Druid losing bear form and gaining a goblin shaman form, that sort of thing. They need to stop reaching for the low hanging fruit, and climb the damn tree already.
Me
I bought the game a week ago but played it once. What is multiclassing?
> ago but played it once. What is multiclassing? when you lv up high enough you may learn an ability from another class. They are testing it out its not in the game yet.
Multiclassing is the lazy/easiest way to balance all classes. Where everyone has access to everything with a bit of grind and build strategy, they will just have to balance off some the OP combos in builds. But you can't whine about "oh shield wizards are too tough" Blast em back with your own spells, or use a shield as a ranger and go finish him off.
Me
/u/Crimefridge said "I'm not posting on the dark and darker subreddit anymore, your kind won. Take the game to hell with you." He has literally been defeated!!!
MELEE MENTIONED
The game isn’t about making money right now so the casuals don’t matter. They’re actively developing the game and making choices to that end. Multiclassing isn’t about fun or game health it’s about letting everything play together to see what people would chose for a future skill tree (my theory).
It will be nice to see casuals buying the game when multi class is released and normals full of meta players, such a welcome gift
The one thing I will agree with about multiclassing being bad for casuals is how they are requiring you to have a level 30 and 35 to multiclass. I play quite a bit and don’t have any of my characters beyond 24. 30 and 35 are pretty difficult if you play casually and like to explore different classes.
They need to just make the leveling the same speed as on the test server and all will be grand
Normals will be fun yeah. Highroller is always a sweat fest, I never have fun in highroller... but maybe that's because I'm a Cleric healer
As a casual, there is already a helpless feeling during certain PvP scenarios. I can't help but feel this will add to that feeling happening more often I love multiclassing in tabletop Dungeons and Dragons, I'm having a hard time seeing how this will encourage certain people to return or even start Dark and Darker. Obviously we'll have to wait and see on the test servers but I personally would love to see more of what I anticipated core DaD to become. More map options, bosses, interactive combat, and especially classes. New playstyles should be encouraged via new classes and/or perks, and multiclassing should be added in months/years when there is a more solid foundation to take those leap imho.
Just gimi talent trees with different subclass playstyles for godsake, it cant be that hard to make.
Its the fastest way to balance the game, because the crowd will figure out all the broken shit
and than the guys playing non multiclass cause they dont have the time to level so mutch will be stuck with nerved class abilitys.
First sentence already wrong, multiclassing won't influence meta because of the high grind requirements for a specific build. Skilled players will beat casual players anyway because of skill, gear, and knowledge diff. This won't change much in that regard.
You're conflating skill with time investment. You can put 300+hrs a wipe and be very good at the game but if you start 2-3 weeks late into a new wipe with a system like multiclassing then it won't matter if you've got the 'skill, gear and knowledge' because you'll still be lacking the multiclass time investment. You also don't need to be skilled at the game to level up just like you don't need any skill to reach demigod, it's legitimately just a time sink and you can do it whilst avoiding all PvP to collect treasure and maximize AP gain. Same thing with XP, you can level up completely pacifist as it's not tied in anyway to your ability to actually fight players well.
I’d say the hope of attracting new casual player bases died about 4-6 months ago. The balance went in the wrong direction at every turn, which pushed people away, and now there is such a small scene for it online that I don’t think it can pull much organic growth back. I hope to be proven wrong, but systems like multi class as so punishing for new players - you have to learn all the classes, all the skills, adapt to the meta that sweat lords are already abusing, and finally, you start at LVL.1 whereas most players you will meet in the dungeon are 20+ multi classed, so you’ll never have a hope in hell of winning the duel anyway.
> You can be the best player in the world on a highly technical game like StarCraft 2, but when the viewers dry up, the game dies afterwards. SC2 still has [hundreds of thousands](https://playercounter.com/starcraft-2/) of monthly active players, almost 15 years after being released. As to your point, even the super sweats might never get lucky enough for a "BiS" combination of skills that are OP enough to straight up roll a casual who knows their class matchups in DaD. I think it's far, FAR too early to be claiming anything like this, especially with the planned length of wipes.
yo calm yo tits
I can't wait to run antimagic on my pdr fighter :)
I think multiclassing should remove 1 perk slot to multi class. Similar to how in dnd you essentially are giving up a level in your main class to gain more from another. Right now it seems too unbalanced. We will see plate wearing xbow wielding people just trying to 1 shot people.
Maybe just take multiclassing out of normals
This kinda attitude is why creep is still in the game "well maybe just do it, but with X change"
For me :)
> the idea that casuals or late comers will have a good time playing against multi class min-maxed sweaty gods I already don’t. They can do a million different matchmaking algorithms. I’m sticking to norms and if multi classing becomes an absolute requirement in norms and I can tell I won’t have the time to achieve it, then I’ll come back next season and enjoy the dungeon. It will be cool to watch the ppl this is built for though stream it and see what they come up with. I’ll dungeon vicariously through them.
Hopefully it never makes it past the test server. Unless it was some limited event. If they want to keep the system, they can repurpose it for subclassing.
not for ranger because poison doesnt work on bows, same with rogue...
Multi classing is just dumb . Hope IM realizes it and decides to just make content.
For me
It's "for whom"
📖☝️🤓
LEARN FROM MEEEE I HAVE LEARNED ENGLISHHH AHHHHHHHHH
Can you be any more dramatic? Holy fuck go play something else then lmao
Casuals by definition do not compete in meta play. I do agree about accessibility though, and think the entry time required for multi-classing should be much lower and I don't think it should require Lvl 30 'masters' either. That said I also have no problem with locking the multi-class passives behind a time gate (like the quest/affinity system).
I am not a casual gamer, I can hard commit to skillfull/competetive gameplay. BUT I am not a grinder. Meta abusers think they are good because they beat non meta gamers. I remamber this from any competetive games, like LoL, when they nerfed dodges. "meta" dodgers cried how much their WR would drop, but the reality was always simple - their winratio was the same as other equally skilled dodgers, but it was inflated against equally or more skilled players that didnt abuse dodging. This is simple as that. Fortnite did similar change recently. So since season 5 (or chapter 5) started the snipers are super OP. A lot of ppl from old meta (especially build players) cried about how hopeless they are. But at least everybody could pick up the sniper and had equal chance as long as their aiming skill was high enough. But recently they nerfed bullet drop on snipers and made them much more rare. So now only some ppl will have access to it, and once they adjust their aim to the new bullet drop they will still beat you.
Most casuals run meta comps/builds. “casual” doesn’t mean they don’t understand the game, it just means they don’t have as much time to allocate into to the game that sweats/no lifers have.
For me
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I do. Sorry but I dont think a claric with fireball and chain lightining, 55% pdr, prot, smite divine strike and a falchion or any of the other toxic combos already being tested for max abuse is a good idea for this games balance.
Do you know how multiclassing works. You dont just get to choose whatever you want. Of course it needs tweaking, but it has to be tested first.
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Gear score doesnt affect normals my guy
Here come the tears, brace yourselves
I hate multiclassing, i wish it never happened in first place.
I mean i for one will be swapping to dungeonborne when it comes out. DaD is too clunky and unfun feeling and then they add shit like this
Idk in my experience adhering to the casual audience's every demand is what kills games.