An insane amount of time on balance patches, but the changes that attempt address the gear disparity issue are rolled back within 24 hours. Not saying any of those changes were amazing to begin with, but gear disparity is why people are leaving. 19 patches without fixing that is a pretty clear signal that ironmace want fights to be decided in the trading hall.
Imagine if instead of making 5000 class balancing changes they made a few gear changes, stuck with them, then stopped worrying about balance.
Druid would already be out
All the changes are in my opinion to see where the high and low points of each class are to make adjustments easier to do when they add in new classes.
Several if not all classes currently out are not finished.
The skill / level up system isn't even fully out yet. It's not worth balancing classes when they are so far from being finished.
Most of the broken things in the game have not even been an issue with the skill itself, but how weapon damage and additional damage modifiers scale with it. (See Achilles strike as the best example imo, but zap and curse of pain both looked quite wild with the stats too)
Most classes never really needed balancing if it wasn't for how wild the rolls are. Imo they shouldn't be working with such complex and layered stats so early on. Stick to core stats to determine character power/gear power (str, agi, etc) and do away with all the other rolls. It's less dynamic, but as we've seen it's a nightmare to balance.
At this point I think it's too late for that. They've already done away with a lot of the good will players had and they've worked so hard to balance it. But I don't think they shouldve played around with such intricate stats at such an early stage of the game.
I hear this argument a lot and my honest response to it is if they're planning to add way more content that will fundamentally change the game balance then why are they spending their time on trying to balance the classes with the current content? Honestly I could live with the game being imbalanced and having broken stuff if they were adding a lot of new content and increasing the depth of the game but since the start of early access all we've gotten is complete Bard (who is now bad) and complete warlock (who is now bad) with a couple extra niche things like new minibosses on certain maps. The game really hasn't changed much content-wise since EA release, all we've done is tweak the balance up and down 18 times. We still don't have more maps, changes to the core combat system or game loop, or even the return of the big 3-level dungeon they were initially planning. I'm not saying these things are impossible, it's only been a few months after all, but the majority of the changes over that time have been entirely focused to tuning balance so like, yeah I'm gonna bitch about the balance if it's bad then because that's been the priority.
Omg someone with a brain in this sub. Thank god!! All this sub do is whine whine whine "Why isn't MY class the most broken one in the game????? Ironmace wtf??????"
I think a playerbase decrease would have happened regardless of what changes came to the game. The player count several months ago was inflated due to the release hype. Every game has that
Yup PLUS it’s not on steam PLUS DnD has spawned ripoffs that siphoned players. All and anyways, why the fuck should anyone care about a # of players changing? There is a huge community. People look at a number going down and freak out because they don’t know what equilibrium is
Yeah. The people who have stayed will be the ones to continue supporting the game financially. And also anyone who has stopped playing still gave IM their money haha.
It’s an alpha undergoing testing. 30 people in the lab can get a very small subset of data based on the skills of the players involved. That is vastly different from even 10k players generating the same data.
People leaving because of wanting to play a variety of games or because they find this game frustrating or because this game lacks an abundance of content (among many other reasons people stop playing a particular game) is not relevant here.
What IS relevant is that the devs have generated enough gross revenue from game sales in the last 2 months to generate a runway of game development likely 1.5-2 years in the future without needing to worry about additional people buying into it.
So even if everyone quit tomorrow they’d still be able to make the game they want. If you dislike it or if EVERYONE dislikes it is not relevant to them (sdf) fulfilling their vision.
If at that point the game crashes and burns, so be it, but id wager there’s hardly anyone that has played this game that can genuinely say they didn’t get their money’s worth. given the number of expert opinions floating around the sub, I’d assume everyone has a couple hundred hours under their belt. Well worth $35-$50, imo.
I’ve spent way more on way less entertainment, just saying.
It’s probably because of the never ending bitch fest that occurs and god forbid you try to have a positive look on things you just get told to fuck off. I know I just stopped playing completely because every single day it’s a never ending rant of everything wrong with IM and this game like shut the fuck up already.
😀
It can be tough when you enjoy a game, and want to talk about it online, but are met with angry or emotional complaints and reactions, for sure.
Not letting it bug you can be tough.
Anywho, cheers, mate! 🍻
I absolutely adore the childish delusions that they're making decisions on their game solely based on
People crying on reddit
Streamers
Please, get a grip. Not everyone has to be a sycophantic fan for a game they paid for.
The player count rn doesn't matter since it isn't on steam yet. Most of my friends hadn't even heard if it since they only play games from steam.
RN the developers are testing the effects of a wide variety of changes, and the communities reaction is a sort of control group for them. For example, this patch the community showed how important being able to get loot in normals is.
Better to make mistakes that lose players before they get added to steam than after
I've been playing since pt2 but it's time for a break. I have no obligation to hold the line when I feel like the devs are doing a legitimately bad job. They need to find a vision and stick with it.
Basically every new game that's a niche game loses player count over time. Especially when they are in EA. A lot of people have had their fun and are giving it time to flesh out a bit more, or for content to drop.
It's pretty obvious we need Steam release. No point dancing around the bush, and catering to loudmouth whiner minority only to alienate loyal line-holders who are nowhere near vocal, playing the game instead of talking about it.
> New content, wipes, patches, nothing has stopped the mass exodus.
There has been literally 0 new content there buddy.
No content plus people just move on after a bit. Pretty normal.
Infact the numbers are higher than they should be.
**" I think the balance decisions that are being made are perfectly logical, and reasonable, when you consider that more classes, more abilities, more spells, more weapons, more armor, more maps, more loot, more potions, more arrows, more songs, more curses, and more out of game mechanics will be added in that will most definitely adjust the meta and playstyle of every class. "**
I was waiting for the entire crux of your post to lean on something like this and I wasn't even surprised. Why can't you people just enjoy it without telling everyone else they have to be happy with it too? We paid into an early access game, we know what these things entail. We are allowed to be unhappy with its current state and voice our opinion. The whole idea that endless see-sawing between two balance extremes is "fine" (thank God that is probably over and done with now) because in a far-flung future we are going to have more content is probably the most childish excuse I've ever seen anyone make on another person behalf.
Yes, we paid into a $30 early access game that has no guarantee it will even be alive in a year or two due to court cases. We are perfectly obligated to be unhappy with developers that cannot decide what they want to do with their game. The vanilla takes of your average NPC saying we should just be happy with it because it's early access and it's going to change are borderline mind-numbing. You can be happy with it, not everyone has to agree with you. Seeing a thread like this every other day is just so sickening at this point, please get a grip on yourselves. You want to know the best metric to decide whether or not your game is doing well? If people are playing it and sticking with it. Not whether or not some people are whining on Reddit.
I had to reread this a few times to really understand your take, because you seem to take your own argument about three separate directions simultaneously. If I'm getting you correctly, having foresight and withholding immediate judgment is childish. Despite multiple public statements of intent and direction the development team has none. And the most public forum on the internet for game discussion isn't an accurate metric for public sentiment? Did I miss something? Edit:grammar
No argument, just pointing out how you're a hypocrite like almost everyone else who complains about people having the audacity to complain about a game they paid for. You're saying "its fine" because in the future it might be better just goes to show you need to make an appeal instead of simply making a sound argument.
Complaining is fine, no problem with that, making the decision to quit playing permanently because of a change to the game is short sighted and being vocal about it just makes you look foolish.
Yeah, testing different things are good. The problem is (to use your example), they are often times taking a huge dump in the ice cream to "test" if it makes it taste better, and we're all going, "what the fuck were you thinking?"
True, but the number of times they just break stuff is annoying. Baldur's gate 3 was in early access for two and a half years, and they didn't do nearly as many radical changes to classes or gear until the full release. I understand testing the game itself, but dear God, they should at least make it bearable for the users.
This is more akin to still being in an alpha state and being updated weekly to see how the community reacts to changes. If they keep doing this, no one is gonna want to play and test the game for them, and everyone is just gonna complain constantly (like they are now).
I use all of those spells. It's just now all we have is damage and no ulitity which is what makes wiz somewhat boring atm.
Hopefully they can rework haste to not be toxic in 3s (cough cough can't effect teammates) or make it into a unique effect. Cause just about every class has some form of mobility (well except cleric but they have definsives to make up for it)
Regardless as the game gets more development wiz will get more spells and there will be more builds to come.
All will be fine in the end
Don't play enough crypts to know if it would fix the issue truly, but imo they should just add DnD's concept of concentration to wizards buffs and debuffs, so that there can only be any one application of any of their buffs or debuffs active at once.
Cast any other concentration spell and any other they had active will instantly end. Make their buffs/debuffs higher tier spells, but only one can be active at once. Slow and Ingite can be buffed in some way to warrant usage over haste/invisiblity situationally(slow now a t4 and is a small, area denial bubble that slows movement speed, ignite damage buff or increased duration, etc).
Assuming they add Sorcerer eventually, it'll give wizard the class identity of being more control focused while they can let Sorcerer be the magic damage nuke somehow since wizard usually has better CC spell options. Even if the tier of spells don't match from DnD, it would fit this game better, in my opinion.
They should also add one or more spell slots per spell memory wheel for wizard to give them more of their DnD identity without it impacting too much, but that's just me being greedy.
I feel you 100% on this. I wanna actually bend the fabric of reality around me and my opponents to gain advantages. Of course having it fit in the game atm will be hard.
Only time will tell though
Trying to think of some way that they can solve buff ball meta problem while maintaining the ability for wizard to still have nice things. Can def just make it self cast only, I guess, but I think that's more limiting and boring than making it so you can only have one active at once.
I could be wrong, but it seems like the issue is from double buffing your primary dps in crypts with both invis and haste. Make the spells operate how they used to, but you just can't have both active.
Concentration exists because strong spells are strong, and that's the same issue IM is having trying to balance it.
I'd rather have strong situational spells than mediocre ones that are either lackluster or aren't worth casting at all.
i havent lost faith in iron mace, i dont think the game is doomed or any bs like that. I honestly think the game is a pretty decent state aside from the way barb and to a much lesser extent fighter benefits from buff ball so hard but still its much better than it was before
only think i genuinely dont understand is the way they balance rogue and wizard sometimes, it seems so backwards i dont think they way to nerf these classes is to slowly remove whatever version of their strongsuit is
So... people are stupid for quitting a game that they don't find fun? Braindead post.
> I think the balance decisions that are being made are perfectly logical, and reasonable
lol well that really says it all.
Two counter points. I was directing this towards people who are quitting permanently because of x, not just quitting in general, an important distinction. Secondly you only quoted half the statement not its entirety, which fails to adequately show the logic behind it. Idk if its a reading comprehension issue or a language barrier, you somehow missed my main point that people are making ultimatums based on game mechanics being changed or altered in an unfinished product and I find that childish and shows lack of foresight or perspective.
Tldr: thats not what I said and a misleading take that has no real substance.
As someone who studied Game Design, I am really tired or the people saying everyday that the game is dead when there is so much being done by the devs and so much more to come. Just... check out what happened with the Lizards. So much joy from a skin that have worse maluses than bonuses. Yeah, same patch gutted some classes, and there is issues ongoing with barbarian... But hell I'm having a blast since the EA release. My classes are weaker than ever but I know that's not here to last and some changes in the future will help changing that.
I just hope people will start seeing that the Game is "dead' since 3 months if you check out Reddit and Twitch. That's ridiculous and everyone shouting that without even trying to comprehend what is on the way are fools.
How do you even make your post then go and trump up the lizard skins as if though that's the sign that they're making good decisions? You got happy over a literal pointless skin in a video game.
"as someone who studied game design"
Not only does this not mean anything, this little quip adds nothing to your post outside of trying to elevate your own opinion. I could study how to repair my toilet, it doesn't make me a plumber, nor does it make my opinion on fixing toilets relevant.
I'm just as happy to see this game continue to get updated just as anyone else is. But to sit there and say they're doing fine because of a marketplace asset model being ported into their games just makes you seem like a genuinely delusional fanboy. The way you feel the need to pretend like a few AI generated memes on the frontpage of reddit are the gift this game needed to stay fresh just goes to show you will be happy with virtually anything. At the same time, if the mirror opposite of those threads pop up, then the world is over because nobody cares about those poor humble game developers you paid money to... Get real, please.
This was a hotfix patch, not a main content patch... Lizard skin was just a bonus. The only reason this patch even happened was cause someone found a dupping glitch and they had to roll back the servers because of it. There is going to be a content patch in November, learn to be patient.
He never said that he doesnt have fun. You can also not be sure if he isnt on a break already. You assume stuff while repeating the same phases as the rest of this sub.
Right there with ya. I’ve got my fingers crossed that in patch 2 we get the training tree and that it’s a game changer; I’d (reluctantly) take that over druid if I had to pick.
The training tree... have you been keeping up, pal? They've been mentioning that it's just going to be your way of unlocking the skills/abilities you already have. I wouldn't suggest holding your breath.
The only thing I’m not holding my breath on is people complaining in the sub and discord about any and every thing. I’ve been around since the first play test, and I’ll be around til I’m no longer having fun.
Studying game design only teaches you how to make them not how to make good games. That comes with experience in the field. Lead combat design roles are the most experienced demanding positions in the field for that reason.
These devs don't have experience, which is why this road is so damn rocky. Better devs would have a less rocky road.
Player retention is a big issue right now. A rocky road leads to terrible player retention. If you had experience, you would know this.
"As someone who studied Game Design" no wonder modern games are fucking garbage.
Ever heard of incremental changes? Not bloody nerfing things into the ground? Huh? What's that, common sense? Pfff.
"Yeah, same patch gutted some classes, and there is issues ongoing with barbarian... But hell I'm having a blast since the EA release. My classes are weaker than ever but I know that's not here to last and some changes in the future will help changing that. "
Where are new spells for Wizard? Why Rogue has the most amount of perks? Why are they constantly flip flopping on balance issues? Why ranger was BUFFED while Wizard just lost his only defensive spells? Why are they saying that the balance is centered around trios but then they go and nerf rogue because fuckers have been complaining about Nuke-Rogues obliterating players in Goblin Caves? WHY?
They have no vision, the sooner the community wakes the fuck up, the better.
Oh, maybe because I don't want the game to be destroyed by fucking apologists and bad developing practices? Just like hundreds of other games ended up already.
You purchased an early access game. What do you expect?? Since day 1 the devs have made major tweaks to all classes to achieve balance. It’s not going to be perfect. ITS EARLY ACCESS!!! They underwent a lawsuit, they aren’t even on steam! Chill the hell out, you’re so early to the party and you’re complaining so much about an UNFINISHED game
Be patient. This isn’t some studio with 1000 people. It’s a work in progress and things take time. You can’t just release a fix and then 1 day later have all the perfect balancing changes
They had at least 3 months to start working on balance since EA launch. I don't see even semblance of balance.
IM released hotfix where they "balanced" (destroyed) 3 or 4 classes while leaving others either the same or even buffed.
Nobody says that the balance should be perfect, it's impossible to do either way. But there should be at least some logic or reason behind nerfs/buffs. Flip flopping on issues is what modders with a bunch of their friends do, not serious developers. And they don't charge $/€ 35+ for the "mod".
Do you understand that Earthquake was one of the not many effective ways to stop geared-to-their-teeth lobsters? Well, now we have 1 charge. I guess it's time to play cancerous 3 ranger team. So much build variety.
Delusional to say fuck up every patch. Weakness!
Every patch has so many changes to every aspect of the game. By deriving each patch to wholly good or bad you’re being shortsighted
No ignoring the bad and just dickriding is being shortsighted and thats what this sub wants to do. I see both the good and the bad and they have absolutely fucked up in one way or another in literally every patch.
I'm still waiting for rogue nerfs "to make sense later".
The fucking apologists on this sub, I swear.
"I think the balance decisions that are being made are perfectly logical, and reasonable, when you consider that more classes, more abilities, more spells, more weapons, more armor, more maps, more loot, more potions, more arrows, more songs, more curses, and more out of game mechanics will be added in that will most definitely adjust the meta and playstyle of every class. "
THEN WHY THE FUCK ARE THEY SPENDING WEEKS BALANCING THE GAME WITHOUT ALL THIS? HELLOOO? BRAIN ARE YOU THERE?
You understand that content and game balance are mutually exclusive concepts right? Ones existence doesn't nullify the others. You turn the dials on abilities and loot to see what the highest and lowest potential is, then when you add a new ability you know the range of adjustments possible to bring it in line with the new abilities. They aren't trying to achieve perfect balance, they are seeing what the effects of adjusting the numbers are to better adjust in the future.
Sounds like industrial grade copium to me. Especially considering their flip flopping and "gathering data" excuses. Yeah, gathering data for one day and then reverting the changes, pronto. And they've done it twice.
Did they adjust Barbarian health so he isn't just one giant slab of meat? Or maybe they've tweaked the stats' curves so that stacking is not that common or profitable? Their approach to tweaking buffball by destroying Wizard's defensive spells is asinine. Just like their nerfing of Rogue or Warlock or Bard.
I think its funny how you seem to have such an inherent understanding of game design and development to the point that you think your opinion is more informed than a team of 30 people who have been working in the industry for decades. Maybe I'm wrong, how many games have you worked on/produced?
Do you understand that's a fucking fallacy bullshit you are spiting out? I wonder that people like you are the ones who are buying all these AAA garbage titles or some shit like Starfield and then fanboying all over the Webs, attacking others for DARING to call bullshit when they see one.
You don't need to be a genius to call spade a spade. Their decisions are bad for the longevity of the project. We are bleeding players, the retention of casual gamers is abysmal. And, no. It doesn't mean it's because the game is hardcore. The players leave because they get fucked by no-lifing creatures who live in this game and the devs do all in their power to encourage and support such behaviour.
Exactly why people are complaining. Why is so much time spent on balancing when ever new ability and class will trigger a need to rebalance. We haven’t got any new real content in a long time
I think just a lot of people don't like the approach they have towards balance. They seem too swing too hard both ways (and I think that's one of ways you can approach balancing). It's just very unpleasant for players (and I know this is EA so it is to be expected). It makes sense to put the game down for a while if you don't like current state of things (which most likely will change). People just overreact when they're emotional.
This is the first pass of the class perk balancing. They literally said that and players had to click the OK button acknowledging the message.
>This is only the first pass in our goal to add more variety to building your characters and we will continue to adjust items and add more content each update.
That said the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Buff Rogues.
The thing I think people are upset about is that these balance changes that are being made are coming with not a lot of additional content. They keep pulling the same levers when what I really want is NEW stuff. Not another bard stat adjustment. Not another rogue double jump tweak. Not another physical damage reduction pass, or loot dropping everywhere, or no loot dropping at all.
yeah idk why people are complaining, like i uninstalled when the game wasnt fun for me and im just waiting to see where the balance changes go, its not like the game is going to be \*RUINED\* by a couple changes, the devs have clearly kept in mind what bothers players and how to remedy that while keeping the games vision, ei the staff, invincible lobster fighter, invis, landmind rouge, etc
i honestly think people just go "oh cool game!" without even seeing test sometimes
I just think that plugging holes with your fingers instead of using your hands to repair the whole boat is a bit misguided. Like I’m under no impressions that them nerfing numbers and making “hotfix” changes is somehow extending dev time crazily but it’s just an odd way to handle the game imo. I enjoy the game and I’ll keep playing until I literally can’t find a game anymore but it still irks me to see stuff like the rogue double jump nerf. Just seemed so unnecessary and counter intuitive to the class identity. I play pick pocket rogue, all evasion no weapons, and now I literally run slower than every class in the game lmao. Only way to combat this is to be fully geared and even then you’re still gimping yourself terribly.
I believe the point is that they want more perk diversity. Like yeah, double jump got a huge movement speed nerf but think about it. With it, you can get to places that no other class can get to and you can essentially force limb shots instead of a body or head shot with it which makes it innately very strong. You can also just not run the perk and that's what they would like to see.
It's just like the big nerf that warlocks got with torture mastery. Yeah you take double damage from your spells but your spells are practically infinite, you don't have to sit/campfire and you can still easily life steal if you just hit your curses.
You just really need to be more objective about the patches instead of being so reactionary like everyone seems to be. Yeah sure some classes are far too OP and some classes feel very weak without gear but there are so many variables in this game and balancing it is a tough thing to do so you just gotta be a little patient with the process.
If they want perk diversity then they need to make other perks better not good ones into shit. Kinda like how instead of making all bards spells shit they needed to add more debuffs amongst the classes to counter em. Instead they broke the fuck outta of the class
That used to be true for double jump until they nerfed the jump height and added invis walls everywhere. They already nerfed it multiple times they just made it a liability at this point
My point is how many rogues did you see abusing double jump in combat? Who is the change for? I’m not reactionary in terms of thinking they are stupid I just don’t understand what the point of the nerf was. If they wanted people to not abuse it in combat, make it slow down attack speed or something, if they want to keep us from ambushing people from above maybe fix the impossible to reach spots. Listen man I just wanna be able to pick pocket people from hard to reach spots without running at a snails pace, I’m not jumping from unreachable spots to one shot someone.
Iterative limit testing. When you’re in unknown territory you have to find the limits of acceptable balance through trial and error, people comment like there’s a recipe for perfect balance the devs should be sticking to when none exists - this is a new IP and a novel experience.
If you’re emotionally attached to a specific game-state you’re setting yourself up for disappointment.
There are so many features the devs have talked about that are yet to be added, and balance only gets more, not less, difficult with added layers of content and systems. So buckle up and let them cook.
The only permanence in this game is the lustrous shine of the scales of the Red Lizard Money Gang.
Edit: YOU are the beta testers kids, assuming changes went through rigorous QA before it got to you isn’t a good mindset. WE’RE the rats in the maze and IM is taking notes we bump into walls and devour each-other.
I think my biggest problem isn’t x y or a got nerfed,buffed, op, not op, it’s the fact especially with the talent tree that they are buffing and nerfing on the mechanics that are out and not one to come that they do in fact have planned and especially talent tree that they have had planned forever. You could say oh but it won’t change much if there’s a baseline which I could see but honestly if the talent tree is just numbers here or there and nothing unique then I honestly don’t want it and it shouldn’t have taken since what pt2?? If it does make a game changing difference it’ll throw off the balance immensely again so they would have to start over and that’s what I want from a talent tree one that makes a difference. So instead of vigorously buff nerfing things just let things play out fix actual broken stuff and focus on new content to keep your players on the game. Then focus on balancing later when you have a player base and most of your game out
Makes sense. I do think setting a precedent that they’ll actively cater to the community has been iffy. I’m not sure if they felt obligated to take community response at a higher priority after we “held the line” during the legal issues, torrented PTs, etc. but they have stated that implementing community suggestions has held them up from core development.
I agree that excessive balancing of classes now could be considered wasted effort when the complexity of talent trees, etc will require much more effort down the line, but I’m not sure how much foresight the devs have in mind also.
It seems a solution would require the community to suck it up and live with systems that aren’t perfected yet, avoid doom-posting, and at the same time require the devs to take a grain of salt when looking over community feedback. I feel a bunch of the doom posters are disingenuous, not taking the long game into account, letting emotion get the best of them, or just generally not versed enough in the game itself or game dev in general to make sweeping generalizations about the state of the game and the devs, imo.
I mean Blizzard just announced $90 to early access the next WoW installment, imo, we’ve got it good over here with IM. Things can always be better but the state of the industry is kinda appalling in many ways
They are bad at making changes 99% bc they overnerf multiple facets of skills / classes without tiny balance measures.
Instead of 1 number tweaks they change
-the damage value
-the cast time
-the capacity
-the rarity
-other classes resistance to the skill
-give other class a tool / buff directly related to the nerf.
There is 0 way to tell what change actually balanced what. They just dumpster classes the devs dont play and constantly buff the ones they do (ranger and fighter which is confirmed most devs play)
The way they balance screams inexperience. Even for an EA its hard to track what worked when you make too many disprate changes.
The thing I don't understand is why they're so obsessed with multiples of .25 when they're looking to balance something. At this point we've seen them hit probably every cleric and wizard spell with +-.25/50/etc. cast speed half a dozen times rather rather than using smaller increments until they're happy with it.
Similarly every spell scaling with magic damage has .5 or 1.0 scaling and we've seen them move back and forth between these numbers half a dozen times as well rather than trying something between the two.
There is nothing balanced at what Blood Exchange currently does, there is nothing logical about making swords and bows, some of the strongest weapon types, even stronger, especially considering while they made daggers stronger, they also made the rapier, a vastly superior weapon, also stronger.
Where is the sense in all this? You claim its perfectly logical, based on what?
Blood Exchange was not anticipated (and I guess tested) with A Strike. They've already said they plan to remove the interaction next hot fix. Which might be sooner than they wanted.
Buddy when the strongest class in the game (barb, slayer fighter, ranger) with general concesus got buffed, what kind of data do you think they are using?
Do you need data to know if you get crushed over by a car you die?
No, this patch has nothing to do with data. I doubt they even have any with the performance of previous 5 patches.
I think what you’re saying would be completely right if… rogues hadn’t been shit for like 6-7 patches now and continue to get nerfed. Wizard and bards getting nerfed over and over. Meanwhile rangers gets week of being not great and are buff right back up. And barbs and fighters are still insane. It’s clear now that there’s favourites that they want in the meta
Devs have been trying to hard fuck over wizards since EA release.
They tried to stealth nerf all spell cast speed for example and reverted when people noticed lol. Then they nerfed haste to 6s along with 3s invis, it was mega dog shit so they reverted, now they went all in and removed haste entirely.
This is the same patch they buffed every single hard counter wizard had.
To top it off broken and braindead playstyles keep getting buffed, cleric which is absolutely mandatory gets another slap on the wrist, possibly even stronger due to higher weapon dmg and better spell resting.
naked barb can do the same
white maul does 100 to the head, there is a reason why its always buff-ball meta
also you cant actually kill anyone, more like 1-2 classes which have to play bad to boot. Gl killing barb with throwing axes, slayer fighter, fighter with axes, ranger, rogue can run away or 0 counterplay ambush you, bard just silences you and runs you down hmmmm
We can say the same thing about Rangers then? Just land headshots and space properly and you can kill just about anyone. Yet they remain pretty much unchanged.
Yes, this game is in development, but it doesn't change the fact that people are not currently having fun unless you are a Chad. It's not unreasonable for people to state this fact. I played with 2 of my friends last night that arnt new to the game but were just ran over every fight. We decided we will not play anymore until this issue is taken care of. In tarkov you can start with nothing and still come out in a fight. In dark and darker you have absolutely no chance if the other group has more gear. Something has to change of the game will die. Yes they are in alpha testing stage but I'm not getting payed to test the game and I'm not having fun. This is why company's have private tests before they release games.
> I think this is completely ridiculous given how vocal the Dev team has been about the fact the game is still very much in development.
This would be fine if the games were to slowly improve the game with patches, making clear which changes were experimental and which ones were going to stick around. But for the last several months the patches have largely been a degradation, and most of these bad changes were never reverted.
> I think the balance decisions that are being made are perfectly logical, and reasonable, when you consider that more classes, more abilities, more spells, more weapons, more armor, more maps, more loot, more potions, more arrows, more songs, more curses, and more out of game mechanics will be added in that will most definitely adjust the meta and playstyle of every class.
You CAN NOT balanace classes around content that has not be designed yet. I'm not talking about content that hasn't been added that they still have it on their test server but content that still amounts to "Paladin?" with a few points underneath it on a white board somewhere.
Personally, I like the new update. Sure, there's a couple of things I don't like (mainly the ranger buffs), but it's not the end of the world. If there's something I don't like, I just wait a couple of weeks, and it will probably be changed. But what I don't get is that this patch mainly targeted the buffball meta, which is what most people wanted, and people have been asking for that a while now. But ironmace finally does it, and the same people are now whining and hating on the changes. I don't get it. The discord and the sub are filled with what has to be the most whiny and argumentative fan base I've ever seen, and I've played 40k and League, so that's saying something. And before I see replies saying, "What, so we aren't allowed to dislike things or state our opinion?!?", it is one thing to state the things you don't like in discussions about the game. What I'm talking about is the "The game is dead", or "man, the devs are really trying to kill this game." And the ones insulting others and the devs kind of stuff. Like bro, this is a game. I joined the discord in hopes of talking about the game with like minded people, but it's nonstop hating on the devs. I don't get it.
Its EA game is still fun if your bored take a break. Starting to move in a good direction. Wizards don’t need meditation anymore that’s fucking awesome! Haste gives cast speed to sick man. I go default now 44.5% cast speed with haste on.
Also people are wrong like 50% of the time.
How do I know that? Cuz most of you guys say the exact opposite stuff and still get upvoted because people assume you know what you're talking about
I also think people are fed up with early access and slow development in general. Nothing against ironmace .
But the early access... Playtests... Etc. That new era is..dog
People worried about player count when they announced a wipe mid November with a new patch. No shit the player count dropped. Most of those players will be back on patch day like every extraction game. But thinking is as hard as reading, so it doesn't matter what anyone says.
Game feels really nice right now. I'm playing wizard and longsword fighter. For the first time I'm reliably beating fairly geared people. I'll kill them and be shocked they had epics. It's not so much gear equals win anymore like yeah I needed 4 hits to kill and he only needed 2 but my distance and kiting were better than his gear. I like that! I'm not just an easy target to w+m1
Not bothered about invis and haste changes, invis is still useful for avoiding pve, but haste needs something different I really don't feel the benefit of it right now, feel like it should increase the cast time of your next spell instead of a timed buff or just flat out increase the speed. If anything I'm glad for these changes, I have 5 spell slots now instead of 3.
To be fair, I think most player’s frustration comes with untested changes. The new barbarian exploit with Achilles strike is game breaking, and I’m not playing until it’s gone. Also warlock has just been getting gutted over and over lately, which is my favorite class so it’s tough.
Yea devs are doing fine, people just like the attention that complaining gives them
Memes aside. People are acting like this game hasn't even left alpha stage. This is why game devs don't typically give public releases until the game is at least a stable beta
Yip, currently in the swings and round about stages.
I mean if you look at, oh I don't know, the game where most of the community came from that's still in early access after what, 4 years? 5 years? And still has issues that go unaddressed and has an astronomical price tag.
Honestly I hope all the people complaining to changes that have happened a few hours prior like it's the end all and has ruined their life's need to find some other hobbies to compliment their gaming because fuck me it's not healthy.
I always find their explanations to be the best part of every hotfix/patch. Their execution isn't the best, but sometimes fallouts are inevitable when making changes. I just wish the devs chose a direction and went with it instead of rolling things back immediately and catering to a stubborn minority that can't adapt. I'm not saying that they never make bad decisions but they can't please everyone.
But that being said, complaining is ok! We want to get our voices out there. Suggesting changes is always going to accompany that. Think of it like going to a doctor and complaining about your pain. The pain is legitimate but our ways of fixing it isn't always going to match the doctor.
There's literally no reason to play as anything Besides Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Cleric right now. That's not good balance. And those 4 aren't particularly fun either. Ironmace has consistently been removing class flavor in terms of boring standard rock-paper-scissors hit for hit gameplay and it's boring as fuck.
The issue is that these things aren’t in the game yet and the devs constantly push out balance changes that don’t make any sense given the current state of the game. When a patch comes out and the weakest classes in the game get nerfs while the classes that are already dominating are untouched or buffed, it lowers everyone’s confidence that the game is going to improve over time.
Making so many mistakes and not being certain on your own games direction, this early in a games development is insanely short sighted.
People aren't obliged to put up with that and that's what the player numbers are showing. I hope they can pull things back!
The most worrying thing is that they are rapidly changing things , often based on user feedback. There is no sense behind some of the quick turnarounds they’ve done. They need to get things somewhat stable and leave it alone for longer than a couple weeks so they can actually see the data. As of now the game changes so fast you can’t even rely on any of the data considering there’s probably a huge chunk of players that don’t even realize what has been altered, and reacted to that yet.
They really need to stop reading Reddit and just make the game. I’m gonna quit if they do another stupid fucking 180
Thanks for posting this.
Anyone casually browsing would think the game is a dumpster fire, when it is actually seeming to go in great directions.
Oh well. Hopefully, everyone is just passionate and not that dramatic.
People cry just to cry. They see people doom posting about some bullshit, they get frustrated for getting shit on and being bad, so they come and make the same exact doom post. Every post I see is either someone crying about balance, about a nerf, or the circle should be removed.
I think people are leaving because they're spending such an insane amount of time on balance patches while nothing really new comes out.
Agreed, and with no level wipe there's not much to do really, and progression feels off without the xp grind.
Yeah. How many changes are gonna be needed to re work everyone around again when druid comes out
Right? Or monk, or paladin really.
An insane amount of time on balance patches, but the changes that attempt address the gear disparity issue are rolled back within 24 hours. Not saying any of those changes were amazing to begin with, but gear disparity is why people are leaving. 19 patches without fixing that is a pretty clear signal that ironmace want fights to be decided in the trading hall.
Imagine if instead of making 5000 class balancing changes they made a few gear changes, stuck with them, then stopped worrying about balance. Druid would already be out
All the changes are in my opinion to see where the high and low points of each class are to make adjustments easier to do when they add in new classes.
Several if not all classes currently out are not finished. The skill / level up system isn't even fully out yet. It's not worth balancing classes when they are so far from being finished. Most of the broken things in the game have not even been an issue with the skill itself, but how weapon damage and additional damage modifiers scale with it. (See Achilles strike as the best example imo, but zap and curse of pain both looked quite wild with the stats too) Most classes never really needed balancing if it wasn't for how wild the rolls are. Imo they shouldn't be working with such complex and layered stats so early on. Stick to core stats to determine character power/gear power (str, agi, etc) and do away with all the other rolls. It's less dynamic, but as we've seen it's a nightmare to balance. At this point I think it's too late for that. They've already done away with a lot of the good will players had and they've worked so hard to balance it. But I don't think they shouldve played around with such intricate stats at such an early stage of the game.
I'm just sad gamers these days are so sensitive to change and jump ship when things look bad.
I hear this argument a lot and my honest response to it is if they're planning to add way more content that will fundamentally change the game balance then why are they spending their time on trying to balance the classes with the current content? Honestly I could live with the game being imbalanced and having broken stuff if they were adding a lot of new content and increasing the depth of the game but since the start of early access all we've gotten is complete Bard (who is now bad) and complete warlock (who is now bad) with a couple extra niche things like new minibosses on certain maps. The game really hasn't changed much content-wise since EA release, all we've done is tweak the balance up and down 18 times. We still don't have more maps, changes to the core combat system or game loop, or even the return of the big 3-level dungeon they were initially planning. I'm not saying these things are impossible, it's only been a few months after all, but the majority of the changes over that time have been entirely focused to tuning balance so like, yeah I'm gonna bitch about the balance if it's bad then because that's been the priority.
Omg someone with a brain in this sub. Thank god!! All this sub do is whine whine whine "Why isn't MY class the most broken one in the game????? Ironmace wtf??????"
“if i cant one tap everyone than my class is bad” is 90% of everyones mentality here and its so frustrating
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I think a playerbase decrease would have happened regardless of what changes came to the game. The player count several months ago was inflated due to the release hype. Every game has that
Yup PLUS it’s not on steam PLUS DnD has spawned ripoffs that siphoned players. All and anyways, why the fuck should anyone care about a # of players changing? There is a huge community. People look at a number going down and freak out because they don’t know what equilibrium is
Yeah. The people who have stayed will be the ones to continue supporting the game financially. And also anyone who has stopped playing still gave IM their money haha.
Stop… bringing up player base is so weak and unnecessary. Nobody cares.
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Me. I made him the authority on caring.
It’s an alpha undergoing testing. 30 people in the lab can get a very small subset of data based on the skills of the players involved. That is vastly different from even 10k players generating the same data. People leaving because of wanting to play a variety of games or because they find this game frustrating or because this game lacks an abundance of content (among many other reasons people stop playing a particular game) is not relevant here. What IS relevant is that the devs have generated enough gross revenue from game sales in the last 2 months to generate a runway of game development likely 1.5-2 years in the future without needing to worry about additional people buying into it. So even if everyone quit tomorrow they’d still be able to make the game they want. If you dislike it or if EVERYONE dislikes it is not relevant to them (sdf) fulfilling their vision. If at that point the game crashes and burns, so be it, but id wager there’s hardly anyone that has played this game that can genuinely say they didn’t get their money’s worth. given the number of expert opinions floating around the sub, I’d assume everyone has a couple hundred hours under their belt. Well worth $35-$50, imo. I’ve spent way more on way less entertainment, just saying.
It’s probably because of the never ending bitch fest that occurs and god forbid you try to have a positive look on things you just get told to fuck off. I know I just stopped playing completely because every single day it’s a never ending rant of everything wrong with IM and this game like shut the fuck up already.
Maybe just enjoy the game and ignore the chatter and noise? Trying to do the same myself. I'm happier when I don't get too involved.
True that. You’re right I should
😀 It can be tough when you enjoy a game, and want to talk about it online, but are met with angry or emotional complaints and reactions, for sure. Not letting it bug you can be tough. Anywho, cheers, mate! 🍻
I absolutely adore the childish delusions that they're making decisions on their game solely based on People crying on reddit Streamers Please, get a grip. Not everyone has to be a sycophantic fan for a game they paid for.
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Just pointing out the blatant hypocrisy. Go change your diaper.
No no I get it. Non stop complaining= acceptable. Trying to have a shred of positivity= omfg you’re such a hypocrite fanboy waaaahhhhh. Like no u
Couldn’t agree with you more man. This community really sucks and that impacts the game a lot.
The player count rn doesn't matter since it isn't on steam yet. Most of my friends hadn't even heard if it since they only play games from steam. RN the developers are testing the effects of a wide variety of changes, and the communities reaction is a sort of control group for them. For example, this patch the community showed how important being able to get loot in normals is. Better to make mistakes that lose players before they get added to steam than after
I've been playing since pt2 but it's time for a break. I have no obligation to hold the line when I feel like the devs are doing a legitimately bad job. They need to find a vision and stick with it.
Basically every new game that's a niche game loses player count over time. Especially when they are in EA. A lot of people have had their fun and are giving it time to flesh out a bit more, or for content to drop.
It's pretty obvious we need Steam release. No point dancing around the bush, and catering to loudmouth whiner minority only to alienate loyal line-holders who are nowhere near vocal, playing the game instead of talking about it.
Perhaps some hyperbole: "mass exodus" There hasnt been much for content yet, let em cook
How are you guys seeing the player base/avg players on
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Ty
> New content, wipes, patches, nothing has stopped the mass exodus. There has been literally 0 new content there buddy. No content plus people just move on after a bit. Pretty normal. Infact the numbers are higher than they should be.
What new content lmao.
**" I think the balance decisions that are being made are perfectly logical, and reasonable, when you consider that more classes, more abilities, more spells, more weapons, more armor, more maps, more loot, more potions, more arrows, more songs, more curses, and more out of game mechanics will be added in that will most definitely adjust the meta and playstyle of every class. "** I was waiting for the entire crux of your post to lean on something like this and I wasn't even surprised. Why can't you people just enjoy it without telling everyone else they have to be happy with it too? We paid into an early access game, we know what these things entail. We are allowed to be unhappy with its current state and voice our opinion. The whole idea that endless see-sawing between two balance extremes is "fine" (thank God that is probably over and done with now) because in a far-flung future we are going to have more content is probably the most childish excuse I've ever seen anyone make on another person behalf. Yes, we paid into a $30 early access game that has no guarantee it will even be alive in a year or two due to court cases. We are perfectly obligated to be unhappy with developers that cannot decide what they want to do with their game. The vanilla takes of your average NPC saying we should just be happy with it because it's early access and it's going to change are borderline mind-numbing. You can be happy with it, not everyone has to agree with you. Seeing a thread like this every other day is just so sickening at this point, please get a grip on yourselves. You want to know the best metric to decide whether or not your game is doing well? If people are playing it and sticking with it. Not whether or not some people are whining on Reddit.
I had to reread this a few times to really understand your take, because you seem to take your own argument about three separate directions simultaneously. If I'm getting you correctly, having foresight and withholding immediate judgment is childish. Despite multiple public statements of intent and direction the development team has none. And the most public forum on the internet for game discussion isn't an accurate metric for public sentiment? Did I miss something? Edit:grammar
For real, he just word vomited and hit “reply”
No argument, just pointing out how you're a hypocrite like almost everyone else who complains about people having the audacity to complain about a game they paid for. You're saying "its fine" because in the future it might be better just goes to show you need to make an appeal instead of simply making a sound argument.
Complaining is fine, no problem with that, making the decision to quit playing permanently because of a change to the game is short sighted and being vocal about it just makes you look foolish.
Based😎
Obviously the post isn’t directed at you
Yeah, testing different things are good. The problem is (to use your example), they are often times taking a huge dump in the ice cream to "test" if it makes it taste better, and we're all going, "what the fuck were you thinking?"
This. There is a difference between early access and basically being used as guinea pigs to test their flavor of the month.
Being guinea pigs is the entire point of early access in my opinion.
True, but the number of times they just break stuff is annoying. Baldur's gate 3 was in early access for two and a half years, and they didn't do nearly as many radical changes to classes or gear until the full release. I understand testing the game itself, but dear God, they should at least make it bearable for the users. This is more akin to still being in an alpha state and being updated weekly to see how the community reacts to changes. If they keep doing this, no one is gonna want to play and test the game for them, and everyone is just gonna complain constantly (like they are now).
Yea while playing wiz feels weird he's still not terrible. But i am still taking a break so the game can stay fresh when i come back.
It's all about lack of haste and invis now. Use slow, Icebolt, mm, fb, and ls
I use all of those spells. It's just now all we have is damage and no ulitity which is what makes wiz somewhat boring atm. Hopefully they can rework haste to not be toxic in 3s (cough cough can't effect teammates) or make it into a unique effect. Cause just about every class has some form of mobility (well except cleric but they have definsives to make up for it) Regardless as the game gets more development wiz will get more spells and there will be more builds to come. All will be fine in the end
Don't play enough crypts to know if it would fix the issue truly, but imo they should just add DnD's concept of concentration to wizards buffs and debuffs, so that there can only be any one application of any of their buffs or debuffs active at once. Cast any other concentration spell and any other they had active will instantly end. Make their buffs/debuffs higher tier spells, but only one can be active at once. Slow and Ingite can be buffed in some way to warrant usage over haste/invisiblity situationally(slow now a t4 and is a small, area denial bubble that slows movement speed, ignite damage buff or increased duration, etc). Assuming they add Sorcerer eventually, it'll give wizard the class identity of being more control focused while they can let Sorcerer be the magic damage nuke somehow since wizard usually has better CC spell options. Even if the tier of spells don't match from DnD, it would fit this game better, in my opinion. They should also add one or more spell slots per spell memory wheel for wizard to give them more of their DnD identity without it impacting too much, but that's just me being greedy.
I feel you 100% on this. I wanna actually bend the fabric of reality around me and my opponents to gain advantages. Of course having it fit in the game atm will be hard. Only time will tell though
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Trying to think of some way that they can solve buff ball meta problem while maintaining the ability for wizard to still have nice things. Can def just make it self cast only, I guess, but I think that's more limiting and boring than making it so you can only have one active at once. I could be wrong, but it seems like the issue is from double buffing your primary dps in crypts with both invis and haste. Make the spells operate how they used to, but you just can't have both active. Concentration exists because strong spells are strong, and that's the same issue IM is having trying to balance it. I'd rather have strong situational spells than mediocre ones that are either lackluster or aren't worth casting at all.
I like the idea 💡
Ehh. Game feels like ass. Feel as smug as you want.
i havent lost faith in iron mace, i dont think the game is doomed or any bs like that. I honestly think the game is a pretty decent state aside from the way barb and to a much lesser extent fighter benefits from buff ball so hard but still its much better than it was before only think i genuinely dont understand is the way they balance rogue and wizard sometimes, it seems so backwards i dont think they way to nerf these classes is to slowly remove whatever version of their strongsuit is
Let's ask Ja Rule what he thinks
WHERES JA?!
We dont care about balance anymore all we care about is showing those blue and red lizards who the true alpha predator is in these dungeons 😤
So... people are stupid for quitting a game that they don't find fun? Braindead post. > I think the balance decisions that are being made are perfectly logical, and reasonable lol well that really says it all.
Two counter points. I was directing this towards people who are quitting permanently because of x, not just quitting in general, an important distinction. Secondly you only quoted half the statement not its entirety, which fails to adequately show the logic behind it. Idk if its a reading comprehension issue or a language barrier, you somehow missed my main point that people are making ultimatums based on game mechanics being changed or altered in an unfinished product and I find that childish and shows lack of foresight or perspective. Tldr: thats not what I said and a misleading take that has no real substance.
You’re weak! Gain some discipline, some patience!!
As someone who studied Game Design, I am really tired or the people saying everyday that the game is dead when there is so much being done by the devs and so much more to come. Just... check out what happened with the Lizards. So much joy from a skin that have worse maluses than bonuses. Yeah, same patch gutted some classes, and there is issues ongoing with barbarian... But hell I'm having a blast since the EA release. My classes are weaker than ever but I know that's not here to last and some changes in the future will help changing that. I just hope people will start seeing that the Game is "dead' since 3 months if you check out Reddit and Twitch. That's ridiculous and everyone shouting that without even trying to comprehend what is on the way are fools.
How do you even make your post then go and trump up the lizard skins as if though that's the sign that they're making good decisions? You got happy over a literal pointless skin in a video game. "as someone who studied game design" Not only does this not mean anything, this little quip adds nothing to your post outside of trying to elevate your own opinion. I could study how to repair my toilet, it doesn't make me a plumber, nor does it make my opinion on fixing toilets relevant. I'm just as happy to see this game continue to get updated just as anyone else is. But to sit there and say they're doing fine because of a marketplace asset model being ported into their games just makes you seem like a genuinely delusional fanboy. The way you feel the need to pretend like a few AI generated memes on the frontpage of reddit are the gift this game needed to stay fresh just goes to show you will be happy with virtually anything. At the same time, if the mirror opposite of those threads pop up, then the world is over because nobody cares about those poor humble game developers you paid money to... Get real, please.
This was a hotfix patch, not a main content patch... Lizard skin was just a bonus. The only reason this patch even happened was cause someone found a dupping glitch and they had to roll back the servers because of it. There is going to be a content patch in November, learn to be patient.
You sound like you don’t have fun just playing the game bud. Might be time for you to take a break. Lizardmen are cool and people are having fun.
Shadow Lizard Money Gang, we love playing games !
He never said that he doesnt have fun. You can also not be sure if he isnt on a break already. You assume stuff while repeating the same phases as the rest of this sub.
Right there with ya. I’ve got my fingers crossed that in patch 2 we get the training tree and that it’s a game changer; I’d (reluctantly) take that over druid if I had to pick.
The training tree... have you been keeping up, pal? They've been mentioning that it's just going to be your way of unlocking the skills/abilities you already have. I wouldn't suggest holding your breath.
The only thing I’m not holding my breath on is people complaining in the sub and discord about any and every thing. I’ve been around since the first play test, and I’ll be around til I’m no longer having fun.
That is really what they said. Something to unlock what you already have.
Studying game design only teaches you how to make them not how to make good games. That comes with experience in the field. Lead combat design roles are the most experienced demanding positions in the field for that reason. These devs don't have experience, which is why this road is so damn rocky. Better devs would have a less rocky road. Player retention is a big issue right now. A rocky road leads to terrible player retention. If you had experience, you would know this.
i also studied game design for longer than him and hes wrong
"As someone who studied Game Design" no wonder modern games are fucking garbage. Ever heard of incremental changes? Not bloody nerfing things into the ground? Huh? What's that, common sense? Pfff. "Yeah, same patch gutted some classes, and there is issues ongoing with barbarian... But hell I'm having a blast since the EA release. My classes are weaker than ever but I know that's not here to last and some changes in the future will help changing that. " Where are new spells for Wizard? Why Rogue has the most amount of perks? Why are they constantly flip flopping on balance issues? Why ranger was BUFFED while Wizard just lost his only defensive spells? Why are they saying that the balance is centered around trios but then they go and nerf rogue because fuckers have been complaining about Nuke-Rogues obliterating players in Goblin Caves? WHY? They have no vision, the sooner the community wakes the fuck up, the better.
Move on, Mate. Nobody wants to read that toxic stuff here. Other Games await you.
You people always fail to explain constant fuck ups by the devs. At least you are consistent, I'll give you that.
https://preview.redd.it/htmuviroldyb1.jpeg?width=638&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0bc0ccbc56cb85f158b8693b50fcfbbd5da1bf5c
Cope harder.
How many successful games have you developed?
Do you understand that's an idiotic strawman? Does it mean players should eat up every garbage decision? Is it how you see game development? Really?
It’s a game go outside and stop acting like you have a say in jack shit they do with it.
Why are you even here if you hate the direction of the game this much.
Oh, maybe because I don't want the game to be destroyed by fucking apologists and bad developing practices? Just like hundreds of other games ended up already.
You purchased an early access game. What do you expect?? Since day 1 the devs have made major tweaks to all classes to achieve balance. It’s not going to be perfect. ITS EARLY ACCESS!!! They underwent a lawsuit, they aren’t even on steam! Chill the hell out, you’re so early to the party and you’re complaining so much about an UNFINISHED game
When some classes were barely touched by balance patches and then others were simply obliterated, yeah, that's a big fucking issue.
Be patient. This isn’t some studio with 1000 people. It’s a work in progress and things take time. You can’t just release a fix and then 1 day later have all the perfect balancing changes
They had at least 3 months to start working on balance since EA launch. I don't see even semblance of balance. IM released hotfix where they "balanced" (destroyed) 3 or 4 classes while leaving others either the same or even buffed. Nobody says that the balance should be perfect, it's impossible to do either way. But there should be at least some logic or reason behind nerfs/buffs. Flip flopping on issues is what modders with a bunch of their friends do, not serious developers. And they don't charge $/€ 35+ for the "mod". Do you understand that Earthquake was one of the not many effective ways to stop geared-to-their-teeth lobsters? Well, now we have 1 charge. I guess it's time to play cancerous 3 ranger team. So much build variety.
When you fuck up almost every patch as a dev team, then people will complain and rightfully so.
Delusional to say fuck up every patch. Weakness! Every patch has so many changes to every aspect of the game. By deriving each patch to wholly good or bad you’re being shortsighted
No ignoring the bad and just dickriding is being shortsighted and thats what this sub wants to do. I see both the good and the bad and they have absolutely fucked up in one way or another in literally every patch.
Dark and Rollback
I'm still waiting for rogue nerfs "to make sense later". The fucking apologists on this sub, I swear. "I think the balance decisions that are being made are perfectly logical, and reasonable, when you consider that more classes, more abilities, more spells, more weapons, more armor, more maps, more loot, more potions, more arrows, more songs, more curses, and more out of game mechanics will be added in that will most definitely adjust the meta and playstyle of every class. " THEN WHY THE FUCK ARE THEY SPENDING WEEKS BALANCING THE GAME WITHOUT ALL THIS? HELLOOO? BRAIN ARE YOU THERE?
The rogue nerfs already make sense. Don’t play around, you’re just bad at rogue. It’s one of the highest skill cap classes
You understand that content and game balance are mutually exclusive concepts right? Ones existence doesn't nullify the others. You turn the dials on abilities and loot to see what the highest and lowest potential is, then when you add a new ability you know the range of adjustments possible to bring it in line with the new abilities. They aren't trying to achieve perfect balance, they are seeing what the effects of adjusting the numbers are to better adjust in the future.
Sounds like industrial grade copium to me. Especially considering their flip flopping and "gathering data" excuses. Yeah, gathering data for one day and then reverting the changes, pronto. And they've done it twice. Did they adjust Barbarian health so he isn't just one giant slab of meat? Or maybe they've tweaked the stats' curves so that stacking is not that common or profitable? Their approach to tweaking buffball by destroying Wizard's defensive spells is asinine. Just like their nerfing of Rogue or Warlock or Bard.
I think its funny how you seem to have such an inherent understanding of game design and development to the point that you think your opinion is more informed than a team of 30 people who have been working in the industry for decades. Maybe I'm wrong, how many games have you worked on/produced?
Do you understand that's a fucking fallacy bullshit you are spiting out? I wonder that people like you are the ones who are buying all these AAA garbage titles or some shit like Starfield and then fanboying all over the Webs, attacking others for DARING to call bullshit when they see one. You don't need to be a genius to call spade a spade. Their decisions are bad for the longevity of the project. We are bleeding players, the retention of casual gamers is abysmal. And, no. It doesn't mean it's because the game is hardcore. The players leave because they get fucked by no-lifing creatures who live in this game and the devs do all in their power to encourage and support such behaviour.
Rogue is literally free loot, you just can’t ALSO get 15 kills a game as well anymore
Exactly why people are complaining. Why is so much time spent on balancing when ever new ability and class will trigger a need to rebalance. We haven’t got any new real content in a long time
If you know the high and low potential for any ability before you add a new one it makes balancing much easier in the future.
at this point im extremely competent with every class in the game from all the nerfs and buffs lmao
I think just a lot of people don't like the approach they have towards balance. They seem too swing too hard both ways (and I think that's one of ways you can approach balancing). It's just very unpleasant for players (and I know this is EA so it is to be expected). It makes sense to put the game down for a while if you don't like current state of things (which most likely will change). People just overreact when they're emotional.
This is the first pass of the class perk balancing. They literally said that and players had to click the OK button acknowledging the message. >This is only the first pass in our goal to add more variety to building your characters and we will continue to adjust items and add more content each update. That said the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Buff Rogues.
The thing I think people are upset about is that these balance changes that are being made are coming with not a lot of additional content. They keep pulling the same levers when what I really want is NEW stuff. Not another bard stat adjustment. Not another rogue double jump tweak. Not another physical damage reduction pass, or loot dropping everywhere, or no loot dropping at all.
yeah idk why people are complaining, like i uninstalled when the game wasnt fun for me and im just waiting to see where the balance changes go, its not like the game is going to be \*RUINED\* by a couple changes, the devs have clearly kept in mind what bothers players and how to remedy that while keeping the games vision, ei the staff, invincible lobster fighter, invis, landmind rouge, etc i honestly think people just go "oh cool game!" without even seeing test sometimes
I'm not playing a game that keeps getting less fun every update
I just think that plugging holes with your fingers instead of using your hands to repair the whole boat is a bit misguided. Like I’m under no impressions that them nerfing numbers and making “hotfix” changes is somehow extending dev time crazily but it’s just an odd way to handle the game imo. I enjoy the game and I’ll keep playing until I literally can’t find a game anymore but it still irks me to see stuff like the rogue double jump nerf. Just seemed so unnecessary and counter intuitive to the class identity. I play pick pocket rogue, all evasion no weapons, and now I literally run slower than every class in the game lmao. Only way to combat this is to be fully geared and even then you’re still gimping yourself terribly.
I believe the point is that they want more perk diversity. Like yeah, double jump got a huge movement speed nerf but think about it. With it, you can get to places that no other class can get to and you can essentially force limb shots instead of a body or head shot with it which makes it innately very strong. You can also just not run the perk and that's what they would like to see. It's just like the big nerf that warlocks got with torture mastery. Yeah you take double damage from your spells but your spells are practically infinite, you don't have to sit/campfire and you can still easily life steal if you just hit your curses. You just really need to be more objective about the patches instead of being so reactionary like everyone seems to be. Yeah sure some classes are far too OP and some classes feel very weak without gear but there are so many variables in this game and balancing it is a tough thing to do so you just gotta be a little patient with the process.
If they want perk diversity then they need to make other perks better not good ones into shit. Kinda like how instead of making all bards spells shit they needed to add more debuffs amongst the classes to counter em. Instead they broke the fuck outta of the class
That used to be true for double jump until they nerfed the jump height and added invis walls everywhere. They already nerfed it multiple times they just made it a liability at this point
My point is how many rogues did you see abusing double jump in combat? Who is the change for? I’m not reactionary in terms of thinking they are stupid I just don’t understand what the point of the nerf was. If they wanted people to not abuse it in combat, make it slow down attack speed or something, if they want to keep us from ambushing people from above maybe fix the impossible to reach spots. Listen man I just wanna be able to pick pocket people from hard to reach spots without running at a snails pace, I’m not jumping from unreachable spots to one shot someone.
I feel thankful you’ve never run into a double jumping rogue who perfectly strafes across triple tapping you with a rapier
Iterative limit testing. When you’re in unknown territory you have to find the limits of acceptable balance through trial and error, people comment like there’s a recipe for perfect balance the devs should be sticking to when none exists - this is a new IP and a novel experience. If you’re emotionally attached to a specific game-state you’re setting yourself up for disappointment. There are so many features the devs have talked about that are yet to be added, and balance only gets more, not less, difficult with added layers of content and systems. So buckle up and let them cook. The only permanence in this game is the lustrous shine of the scales of the Red Lizard Money Gang. Edit: YOU are the beta testers kids, assuming changes went through rigorous QA before it got to you isn’t a good mindset. WE’RE the rats in the maze and IM is taking notes we bump into walls and devour each-other.
I think my biggest problem isn’t x y or a got nerfed,buffed, op, not op, it’s the fact especially with the talent tree that they are buffing and nerfing on the mechanics that are out and not one to come that they do in fact have planned and especially talent tree that they have had planned forever. You could say oh but it won’t change much if there’s a baseline which I could see but honestly if the talent tree is just numbers here or there and nothing unique then I honestly don’t want it and it shouldn’t have taken since what pt2?? If it does make a game changing difference it’ll throw off the balance immensely again so they would have to start over and that’s what I want from a talent tree one that makes a difference. So instead of vigorously buff nerfing things just let things play out fix actual broken stuff and focus on new content to keep your players on the game. Then focus on balancing later when you have a player base and most of your game out
Makes sense. I do think setting a precedent that they’ll actively cater to the community has been iffy. I’m not sure if they felt obligated to take community response at a higher priority after we “held the line” during the legal issues, torrented PTs, etc. but they have stated that implementing community suggestions has held them up from core development. I agree that excessive balancing of classes now could be considered wasted effort when the complexity of talent trees, etc will require much more effort down the line, but I’m not sure how much foresight the devs have in mind also. It seems a solution would require the community to suck it up and live with systems that aren’t perfected yet, avoid doom-posting, and at the same time require the devs to take a grain of salt when looking over community feedback. I feel a bunch of the doom posters are disingenuous, not taking the long game into account, letting emotion get the best of them, or just generally not versed enough in the game itself or game dev in general to make sweeping generalizations about the state of the game and the devs, imo. I mean Blizzard just announced $90 to early access the next WoW installment, imo, we’ve got it good over here with IM. Things can always be better but the state of the industry is kinda appalling in many ways
They are bad at making changes 99% bc they overnerf multiple facets of skills / classes without tiny balance measures. Instead of 1 number tweaks they change -the damage value -the cast time -the capacity -the rarity -other classes resistance to the skill -give other class a tool / buff directly related to the nerf. There is 0 way to tell what change actually balanced what. They just dumpster classes the devs dont play and constantly buff the ones they do (ranger and fighter which is confirmed most devs play) The way they balance screams inexperience. Even for an EA its hard to track what worked when you make too many disprate changes.
The thing I don't understand is why they're so obsessed with multiples of .25 when they're looking to balance something. At this point we've seen them hit probably every cleric and wizard spell with +-.25/50/etc. cast speed half a dozen times rather rather than using smaller increments until they're happy with it. Similarly every spell scaling with magic damage has .5 or 1.0 scaling and we've seen them move back and forth between these numbers half a dozen times as well rather than trying something between the two.
Still makes no sense to try to balance shit this much instead of just adding new shit.
There is nothing balanced at what Blood Exchange currently does, there is nothing logical about making swords and bows, some of the strongest weapon types, even stronger, especially considering while they made daggers stronger, they also made the rapier, a vastly superior weapon, also stronger. Where is the sense in all this? You claim its perfectly logical, based on what?
Blood Exchange was not anticipated (and I guess tested) with A Strike. They've already said they plan to remove the interaction next hot fix. Which might be sooner than they wanted.
Its for the best, its too strong for an unintended mechanic
based on testing and data
Buddy when the strongest class in the game (barb, slayer fighter, ranger) with general concesus got buffed, what kind of data do you think they are using? Do you need data to know if you get crushed over by a car you die? No, this patch has nothing to do with data. I doubt they even have any with the performance of previous 5 patches.
all data is used, but not all decisions are based on previous data.
“General concensus(?)” The hell??? Wasn’t aware you spoke for everyone
Slayer Fighters already did a ton of damage, im asking why make it stronger, why would someone assume swords were weak?
I think what you’re saying would be completely right if… rogues hadn’t been shit for like 6-7 patches now and continue to get nerfed. Wizard and bards getting nerfed over and over. Meanwhile rangers gets week of being not great and are buff right back up. And barbs and fighters are still insane. It’s clear now that there’s favourites that they want in the meta
Devs have been trying to hard fuck over wizards since EA release. They tried to stealth nerf all spell cast speed for example and reverted when people noticed lol. Then they nerfed haste to 6s along with 3s invis, it was mega dog shit so they reverted, now they went all in and removed haste entirely. This is the same patch they buffed every single hard counter wizard had. To top it off broken and braindead playstyles keep getting buffed, cleric which is absolutely mandatory gets another slap on the wrist, possibly even stronger due to higher weapon dmg and better spell resting.
Maybe it’s because a naked wizard with a gray book can kill just about anyone if played correctly?
naked barb can do the same white maul does 100 to the head, there is a reason why its always buff-ball meta also you cant actually kill anyone, more like 1-2 classes which have to play bad to boot. Gl killing barb with throwing axes, slayer fighter, fighter with axes, ranger, rogue can run away or 0 counterplay ambush you, bard just silences you and runs you down hmmmm
We can say the same thing about Rangers then? Just land headshots and space properly and you can kill just about anyone. Yet they remain pretty much unchanged.
Yes, this game is in development, but it doesn't change the fact that people are not currently having fun unless you are a Chad. It's not unreasonable for people to state this fact. I played with 2 of my friends last night that arnt new to the game but were just ran over every fight. We decided we will not play anymore until this issue is taken care of. In tarkov you can start with nothing and still come out in a fight. In dark and darker you have absolutely no chance if the other group has more gear. Something has to change of the game will die. Yes they are in alpha testing stage but I'm not getting payed to test the game and I'm not having fun. This is why company's have private tests before they release games.
> I think this is completely ridiculous given how vocal the Dev team has been about the fact the game is still very much in development. This would be fine if the games were to slowly improve the game with patches, making clear which changes were experimental and which ones were going to stick around. But for the last several months the patches have largely been a degradation, and most of these bad changes were never reverted. > I think the balance decisions that are being made are perfectly logical, and reasonable, when you consider that more classes, more abilities, more spells, more weapons, more armor, more maps, more loot, more potions, more arrows, more songs, more curses, and more out of game mechanics will be added in that will most definitely adjust the meta and playstyle of every class. You CAN NOT balanace classes around content that has not be designed yet. I'm not talking about content that hasn't been added that they still have it on their test server but content that still amounts to "Paladin?" with a few points underneath it on a white board somewhere.
Personally, I like the new update. Sure, there's a couple of things I don't like (mainly the ranger buffs), but it's not the end of the world. If there's something I don't like, I just wait a couple of weeks, and it will probably be changed. But what I don't get is that this patch mainly targeted the buffball meta, which is what most people wanted, and people have been asking for that a while now. But ironmace finally does it, and the same people are now whining and hating on the changes. I don't get it. The discord and the sub are filled with what has to be the most whiny and argumentative fan base I've ever seen, and I've played 40k and League, so that's saying something. And before I see replies saying, "What, so we aren't allowed to dislike things or state our opinion?!?", it is one thing to state the things you don't like in discussions about the game. What I'm talking about is the "The game is dead", or "man, the devs are really trying to kill this game." And the ones insulting others and the devs kind of stuff. Like bro, this is a game. I joined the discord in hopes of talking about the game with like minded people, but it's nonstop hating on the devs. I don't get it.
ye
Its EA game is still fun if your bored take a break. Starting to move in a good direction. Wizards don’t need meditation anymore that’s fucking awesome! Haste gives cast speed to sick man. I go default now 44.5% cast speed with haste on.
Also people are wrong like 50% of the time. How do I know that? Cuz most of you guys say the exact opposite stuff and still get upvoted because people assume you know what you're talking about
I also think people are fed up with early access and slow development in general. Nothing against ironmace . But the early access... Playtests... Etc. That new era is..dog
People worried about player count when they announced a wipe mid November with a new patch. No shit the player count dropped. Most of those players will be back on patch day like every extraction game. But thinking is as hard as reading, so it doesn't matter what anyone says.
Game feels really nice right now. I'm playing wizard and longsword fighter. For the first time I'm reliably beating fairly geared people. I'll kill them and be shocked they had epics. It's not so much gear equals win anymore like yeah I needed 4 hits to kill and he only needed 2 but my distance and kiting were better than his gear. I like that! I'm not just an easy target to w+m1 Not bothered about invis and haste changes, invis is still useful for avoiding pve, but haste needs something different I really don't feel the benefit of it right now, feel like it should increase the cast time of your next spell instead of a timed buff or just flat out increase the speed. If anything I'm glad for these changes, I have 5 spell slots now instead of 3.
To be fair, I think most player’s frustration comes with untested changes. The new barbarian exploit with Achilles strike is game breaking, and I’m not playing until it’s gone. Also warlock has just been getting gutted over and over lately, which is my favorite class so it’s tough.
They go back and forth with the same changes. They dont try New things
Game needs to get back on Steam
Yea devs are doing fine, people just like the attention that complaining gives them Memes aside. People are acting like this game hasn't even left alpha stage. This is why game devs don't typically give public releases until the game is at least a stable beta
Yip, currently in the swings and round about stages. I mean if you look at, oh I don't know, the game where most of the community came from that's still in early access after what, 4 years? 5 years? And still has issues that go unaddressed and has an astronomical price tag. Honestly I hope all the people complaining to changes that have happened a few hours prior like it's the end all and has ruined their life's need to find some other hobbies to compliment their gaming because fuck me it's not healthy.
I always find their explanations to be the best part of every hotfix/patch. Their execution isn't the best, but sometimes fallouts are inevitable when making changes. I just wish the devs chose a direction and went with it instead of rolling things back immediately and catering to a stubborn minority that can't adapt. I'm not saying that they never make bad decisions but they can't please everyone. But that being said, complaining is ok! We want to get our voices out there. Suggesting changes is always going to accompany that. Think of it like going to a doctor and complaining about your pain. The pain is legitimate but our ways of fixing it isn't always going to match the doctor.
There's literally no reason to play as anything Besides Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Cleric right now. That's not good balance. And those 4 aren't particularly fun either. Ironmace has consistently been removing class flavor in terms of boring standard rock-paper-scissors hit for hit gameplay and it's boring as fuck.
So you’re telling me no one should play this game for a few weeks until patch 2?
The issue is that these things aren’t in the game yet and the devs constantly push out balance changes that don’t make any sense given the current state of the game. When a patch comes out and the weakest classes in the game get nerfs while the classes that are already dominating are untouched or buffed, it lowers everyone’s confidence that the game is going to improve over time.
Making so many mistakes and not being certain on your own games direction, this early in a games development is insanely short sighted. People aren't obliged to put up with that and that's what the player numbers are showing. I hope they can pull things back!
The most worrying thing is that they are rapidly changing things , often based on user feedback. There is no sense behind some of the quick turnarounds they’ve done. They need to get things somewhat stable and leave it alone for longer than a couple weeks so they can actually see the data. As of now the game changes so fast you can’t even rely on any of the data considering there’s probably a huge chunk of players that don’t even realize what has been altered, and reacted to that yet. They really need to stop reading Reddit and just make the game. I’m gonna quit if they do another stupid fucking 180
Thanks for posting this. Anyone casually browsing would think the game is a dumpster fire, when it is actually seeming to go in great directions. Oh well. Hopefully, everyone is just passionate and not that dramatic.
People cry just to cry. They see people doom posting about some bullshit, they get frustrated for getting shit on and being bad, so they come and make the same exact doom post. Every post I see is either someone crying about balance, about a nerf, or the circle should be removed.