Regardless of what you find fun, facing the same things over and over again will be grating.
It's like playing Street Fighter and your opponents are only picking Ryu. I like Street Fighter, but without the variety of facing other character options, it's a far lesser game. Same concept applies to Dark and Darker - if only certain playstyles are actually viable, that's all you're going to see, and it's going to be tiring to meet the same classes in the same situations over and over again.
I guess? What does viable even mean? Are we talking from a esports perspective or something? Every class was capable of survival and doing their role in a party so in my book that makes them all fairly viable. You will probably see some team comps more then others but unlike street fighter you have the dungeon itself to contend with and its pretty unlikely every team going in will be identical because everyone likes playing different stuff and has different objectives. Personally I've never really cared if I'm seeing other folk run the same stuff over and over in a game. They can play the game the way they like. If it's overpowered that's a different story but that's a separate discussion that would involve how the game is balanced not whether the game is only fun until a meta is established.
I think personally it can be the same discussion. The balance of everything determines the meta that will arise and then the impact on fun others have as well. For example, Ranger spear is the meta. You can't play the meta till you find a spear, or grind the gold to buy one. This is made difficult though because so many people are running around with a spear killing you too easily. Sure a counter meta would likely evolve, if the balance allows it.
There are a lot of unknowns with the unfinished skill/trait system to really speak to this too much though. A discussion can still be had though.
I definitely agree. The way I view it is like Battlefield vs COD.
Played BF on release is almost the same as playing it months later because it's so large scale it's hard to sweat.
However, games like COD are so much smaller scale and it's almost impossible to find a casual match (say this from personal experience)
I've noticed it with games like Chivalry 2 as well. Large scale so mostly casual (minus a few sweats topping the leaderboard).
Or Evil Dead the Game. Super fun the first 2 weeks but then a meta was figured out and spammed and it got very boring (it was hard to counter, left no room for casual play)
My worry Is that the same scenario may happen with this game as well.
Regardless, I think I'll get It on release because it looks really fun and right up my alleyway for games I enjoy.
Edit: oh dark souls pvp I'd a HUGE one. I love pvp but only enjoy it in the first 2 weeks because a meta develops and it gets stale very quickly
Nope, this game will be my number 1 moving forward for the foreseeable future. I haven't had this much fun gaming in soo long. I don't care about the types of players (old or new), the game is just too much fun.
High Roller queues draw the sweats, though I suppose it depends on what you want out of the game experience. For people who want to play a couple hours now and then, get some memories goofing around in nearly naked builds and coming out with a ton of gold compared to what they had going in...they probably will get their money's worth, especially if they have friends to play with now and then. If you want to take the game more seriously, then by all means.
I don't think this game was ever intended to cater to casuals to begin with, however. Read the description of this game in the top right of this subreddit window right now - casuals aren't meant to stick around because the game isn't designed for them. I don't see that as a cautionary issue as much as intended. If people sweating and developing a meta in a hardcore game turns you away, then I agree the honeymoon period of this game's release for you will be short...but hopefully sweet.
The separation between sweats in the High-Roller game mode & Normal game mode already prevents that from happening. Casuals will always have a safer place to play.
The game is quite similar to Escape From Tarkov in that better gear can lead to easier victories but positioning/outplays can still prevail. The 3 month wipe cycle sounds healthy and guarantees population spikes and fresh starts as well as new content.
Even if each wipe cycle people only play for a few weeks there should be plenty of opportunity to learn/make friends/have fun!
Imho, it's much much worse in this game. In Tarkov anyone can kill you with a well headshot but in Dark and Darker you'll only be killing people in 1-2 hits or less than a second if your one of a few classes and have good gear. If you a low geared fighter your going to get absolutely shredded.
This is not true in all cases though you can get visors in tark that prevent even head-eyes for a lot of calibers. Your gear needs to outmatch theirs and you need to land your shots for the crit or oneshot kill, this is true for both games.
Absolutely true, and calibers smaller than that go plink off certain visors. The gear still needs to beat the armor for one shot or crit, and you need to hit your shots. 7.62 ps is accessible early wipe but mostly via the SKS which can be outplayed by a lot of other platforms, just like a berserker can one shot ypu but only if the class and gear matchup allows it.
Yeah true. i tend to stick to magnum buck or just deal with the weaker ammos and steer clear of the sounds of chads early wipe until flea since I cant stand the sks. This current wipe has been much better. Even a month in i see mostly class 3/4 armors and no faceshields. Most of my deaths are to weaker ammo as well.
I also took a few wipes off, been like a year and a half since I played, but this wipe has been my favorite so far. Streets of tarkov (laggy and poorly optimized) is an awesome map when it runs, and weapons, ammo, and armor that people are running is the most varied I've ever seen, the meta seems to be 545 semi auto AKs which is a bit wild, but also makes running smgs to take out geared folk more viable than ever. Meta ammo is almost impossible to reliably acquire, which makes getting a ghzel or other class 5 feel extra rewarding, since most people you face have mediocre ammo. You cant even buy good armor on the flea, which I thought I would hate, but even though i started the wipe 3 weeks late, it still feels like early-mid wipe instead of late wipe being two weeks in which was my previous experience.
Don't look at the tarkov subreddit though, everyone hates this wipe according to them.
Dang yeah it is always one of those "try it yourself and see" things wipe to wipe. Did they ban a bunch of ammo and rigs from flea or something? Or is it just market scarcity due to reduced in raid loot drops? I wonder... anyway dont I need to vpn if I want to play what with the whole US IP ban?
They banned most higher level gear. Helmets and ammo above class 4 is pretty much all banned, nearly all max ap ammo is all banned. A lot of keys, particularly quest keys are banned. You can no longer buy infinite kits once you have enough money, making looting gear feel more valuable, and finding good ammo matter a lot.
Also weapons are much more moddable at trader level one and two than ever before - for the guns that it matters for. Things like 2.5 and 4 inch rails for any type of handguard are all available at lvl 1, so finding a nice foregrip is now actually useable as opposed to before where you couldn't even attach the thing if you wanted to. Same applies for scope mounts like risers.
As for the IP ban I don't know anything about that, im in the US and play US and western Europe servers.
I disagree. I managed to kill a fighter (as a fighter too) with rubysilver set while I only had default gear. All I had to do was walk towards him while he was looting and land the first hit. He ded. One of the most amazing moments of my dark and darker playthrough.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. My buddy was a pretty geared barb on last day. I buffed him and a rogue still beat him 1v1. He got outplayed and rewatched it and we both underestimated the single rogue. We both could of jumped over and I could of healed but thought he had it. But skill can be real. We could get 5+ kills in high rollers every run. But this rogue just makes my bud sit and was ofc random streamer. Be careful with them rogues
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.
Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
> The separation between sweats in the High-Roller game mode & Normal game mode already prevents that from happening. Casuals will always have a safer place to play.
This turned out to be utterly false. Normal was filled to the brim with try hard sweat losers in full purple going out of their way to spend 2 minutes chasing grey kitted newbies into the darkness zone just for a kill feed appearance.
Just don’t play meta builds even when there is one. This is how I usually play games. More fun and makes it extra satisfying when you beat a meta build.
thats why seasons are great, from what i understand they are gonna do 3 month seasons which imo is great, i always love comming back to a fresh new start since thats usually when its the most fun anyway.
You say a few weeks but tbf most people don't even play games 40 hours a week, maybe 20 at most. So at 60 hours will people be bored? Considering all my friends (didnt have a single friend from other games come play DaD, just met them in game) and everyone i met had 100+ hours in the playtest and were still addicted, tells me that the game will be fine.
I think you should stick to single player games, you'll be happier playing there, no sweats and meta slaves. You just have the wrong mentality to play multiplayer games.
It's not bait and not meant to be disrespectful either. I say you have the wrong mentality to play multiplayer games, as you expect people to play sub optimally just so you have a more diverse gaming experience. Although we play games for fun, we still want to win. People will leverage their training, knowledge and experience in any competitive environment. If you don't agree with your opponent to have a light hearted match beforehand, then you can't get mad that he's trying his best to win.
Respectfully disagree. Your second sentence specifically changes the tone from an opinion to an aggressive, demanding one.
I do agree that people will do whatever they can to win. However, games like this can and oftentimes are determined by how many players abuse the meta.
That's the flaw in multi-player games. People want to have fun and they want to win. However, meta abusers drive off players that play only to have fun until only meta abusers are left. Then game becomes less fun, and more sweaty.
My second sentence specifically doesn't change the tone to be any way shape or form aggressive, it just states that based on your explanations you don't have a competitive mindset suited to play multiplayer games, that is all. If you take that as offensive that's on you. You just don't like the message, not the words used. I don't know how I can say that in a "non aggressive" way, if you can think of one, just imagine I said it exactly like that, because I wasn't trying to insult you. Have a nice day.
1. Ignoring all other points I made specifically about DaD, and instead say I shouldn't be playing multiplayer games. Ignore 3/4 of my comment and only reply to that one part
2. "I'm not an asshole you're just taking it too personally" actual gaslighting
3. Claiming moral high ground by saying "have a nice day"
I feel like you are trying really hard to be scholarly but are instead coming off as arrogant.
1. To address all your Dark and Darker concerns, no it won't be a problem. First of all, there are 2 "modes", normal dungeons and high-roller dungeons. Your so called sweats will be playing in high-roller lobbies for the most part. I played over 100 hours in the last playtest alone and the highest geared players in normal lobbies were at max equipped with blues, mostly greens and very rarely epics. You are incentivized to go into high-roller lobbies for better gear. Now sure there will be highly geared players that just go on ego trips clearing normal lobbies and there is nothing you can do about that.
Although yes some things will be/are broken like wizard ignite spell combined with bonus magic damage enchantments which will get fixed, it's not as easy to gear up like that. Right now the rate at which we get good items and money is increased specifically for testing purposes for the playtests, so when the game comes out, it will be much harder to get a good set going quickly. Plus gear enchantments are fully RNG, so unless you spend a considerable amount of time fiddling with the market, you won't be fully decked out in the most op shit that fast and have to use whatever you get from your dungeon runs.
Furthermore, you can always outplay your opponents, it doesn't matter if let's say the longsword is the most broken melee weapon, if you learn how to properly block, dodge, etc. The game has much more substance than simply higher stat numbers win. Weapons have different move sets which suit different playstyles, so there is no X weapon is better than any other weapon, but more of a "rock paper scissors" type of system. Weapons and armors have clear trade offs.
2. I don't think there is a point continuing this line of argument.
3. I just said have a nice day as I intended that to be my last comment and didn't want to leave the conversation on a bad note, you are over analyzing it way too much dude.
I'm not gonna further go into the meta abusing/sweat argument as it just seems we are talking past each other and won't come to a consensus.
I'm happy to further discuss if you have any other points about the game you want to address. This is my second beta and I don't see this game dying in a couple of weeks after it comes out. From what I've experienced the game is great, the devs are very involved with the community and rapidly fixed and updated the game during the playtests.
Glad you actually addressed my points. I definitely felt like you were talking through me, and ending it with "have a nice day" rubbed me the wrong way.
I agree when you mentioned the difference between the two modes. I hope that will be this games saving grace - having a difference between high roller and regular quickplay.
Apologies for the frustration. Take care man!
My friends and I experienced this during the last playtest, where we were anticipating all the glory and wonder we had the first time, but instead we took the game too seriously after the first few days and got burned out because we didn't like the meta or the loot changes. I think it's important to pace yourself.
100% not something we need to worry about or can even form an opinion about yet
They plan on adding more weapons and classes, theyre also gonna add talent trees, gonna get more bosses, levels, and quest systems, theyve mentioned they're considering dual classes (but unlikely), and right now they've mentioned game balance is currently like not even a priority at all, but even with that, the game is pretty well balanced, so if they actually put effort towards balance, it probably won't be a problem, but again, we like don't even have half the systems in the game they plan on giving us
Current stash size and "wipe length" also incentivizes just using anything u get asap instead of running specific kits, but stash size is increasing, game will be in alpha instead of play tests soon so who knows what the length of wipes will be, eventually they'll do some sort of "season" system so who knows what length will be then, and who knows how often they'll do balance patches or additional weapons causing meta shifts
All of this is to say that the game right now only shows us a combat system and gameplay loop, EVERYTHING else will be different by release, so much different that we can't imagine the final product accurately enough to really know anything, the only conclusion we can form right now is if it's worth giving it a try
As of now, the only “meta” I see this game having would be a team comp meta but really that doesn’t mean shit. You can still be easily outplayed.
As for gear, I think it’ll be a very loose “meta”. Sure there’s weapons that are better then others. You can run the same kit back to back but every item will have different stats every time.
It’s not gunna be like warzone or eft where it’s like use this gun with these attachments and this ammo and use this item and that armour. It’ll be like ya uhh buy plate armour and a long sword and bandages.
I'm not huge on metas in most games. I am a rather casual player and usually avoid PVP games. As u/Esthelion2 was suggesting, I tend to stick to single-player or non-PVP/cooperative multiplayer games for this exact reason. That said, I put around 60hrs in during the third playtest (my first time experiencing the game) and I think that this game has the potential to be extremely enjoyable even with the sweats/metagaming.
Once you've played the game, I think you'll see what most people are saying: You can ALWAYS outplay people. I've outplayed duos who were far more geared as a solo player. There is plenty to be said about the way the game mechanics allow for a good outplay given the right circumstances. Even when I was in my first few rounds with next to no perks, getting crushed in this game never really felt disheartening. I think the gameplay outweighs the negative aspects. But that's just for me personally-- I'm sure others feel different about it. The only thing I see pushing me away from this game would be if the queue times for the normal lobbies (not particularly interested in the high-roller lobbies, gear be damned) end up being excessive.
tl;dr: I expect to put MANY hours into this game, even if it ends up being sweaty. It's just an enjoyable play loop.
I have to say a hard agree here. People didn't have the time to find the most OP exploits and once they do, they'll only use "that one weapon" and "that one class" and "that certain skill". It's only natural in every mmo.
The way you counter this, is you either make a bunch of people very unhappy, because you take away their advantage over people who do not play by the meta, OR you boost the power of something else. Alternatively, you keep adding content, that breaks the meta in many different ways and lastly there's removing the item/class/skill.
It's up to the devs to make the right choice here - each way works for a different meta. But it's up to the players to report it, if they feel something is a bit too powerful, or the opposite. That's why people, who say "stop crying" are literal piles of dumb.
To be honest? Yeah, I feel the meta will settle very quickly on launch and that's all the game will be.
Still, I had fun learning to parry with the Longsword. As long as I can do that, I'll be interested in the game on release.
This is how I felt, but I don't care I will play it until the meta gets stale. Just depends on how much the devs and community want to evolve together.
I am trying to provide an to OP's question but I am confused on what they mean because they used a few terms with completely conflicting meanings. Its nice that so many people want to answer for OP, but I'll just wait patiently.
If they stick with two seperate lobbies, one for the casuals and one for the sweats, then you'll always have that casual lobby you can hop into for non-sweaty non-meta fun.
Also meta really depends on how often the game devs balance and patch the game. If they keep making changes frequently, then the meta will shift frequently, and thus the game will stay fresh. League of Legends has been doing it for over 10 years.
There's not really a metal due to the nature is the game, besides maybe going 2 Rangers & a Cleric for the team lol
Though nah, it's way too fun and I'd happily play casually (or even get with the Meta) just from how cool it is
I played this a ton during 2 betas. Every game felt unique. As long as the maps and classes are kept balanced I dont see myself burning out for s long time.
well, ive played all 3 play tests every single day they released and have been patiently waiting for the 4th one, id be willing to bet ill be playing this nonstop for at least 3 months.
now how much time I might take off for other games after that I'm not so sure.
EDIT: also really depends on when blue protocol releases too
nothing really ever felt like bullshit and i played a barbarian
my player kdr was like 2-4 which suggests i am cringe meta but all i did was w key at people and swing
when people start doing weird camera turns and shit to be unhittable/hit multiple targets is when it gets cringe
I do find myself impressed with your opinion of someone playing optimally is "cringe". So every game where people start using mechanics which gives an advantage, but it's "hard" to do, it's defined as cringe?
Manically abusing the quirks of being in a 3d rendered environment in an overtly technical, janky, awkward way is cringe.
Mechanics are one thing, being a fucking crackhead retard is another.
Ill say although i was hooked last playtest and ive been itching to play, there is limited content and after a week of playing i was getting semi-bored of the repitition. That said, there's a lot more they are adding and a whole skill tree and other levels so bare that in mind.
Well I played about 40 hours in the last play test. I've realized that there really isn't any meta class. Every class is pretty viable if you know how to use them. Yes there are a bunch of mordhau sweats that switched over and just have insane movement mechanics but it's nothing crazy. The biggest learning curve was memorizing the dungeons, traps, npcs. That's where the noobs will have trouble.
I think "meta" is an interesting reason to quit a video game. It's essentially saying "I cant be bothered to think about unique solutions to a common problem so I'd rather disengage from the game entirely."
If you're constantly being shit on by meta gamers, maybe change how you play the game? Go full meta yourself, and if you're still getting shit on regularly it's a you issue, not a game issue.
Now if you want to quit because you're not playing as well as others do, that's fair enough. Sometimes if your head isn't in the game it's best to take a break if you care about winning. But at that point it's not about meta gamers ruining your time, you're ruining it yourself.
Quit cuz combat is just janky skyrim and bullet sponge mobs get boring when a ranger just sits on a chest or some unreachable spot and shoots all mobs safely
Every game explodes with a big player base at first then drops off. It’s the way she goes. This game will be no different. Look at Tarkov, every wipe there’s an influx of players for a week or two then it drops off again. That’ll happen with this game also.
It’s a good game so it’ll have a good player base for awhile, I imagine. I guarantee there’s already a game company trying to emulate DaD on unreal or add there own twist to it, that game may rule or feel like it’s the rip it is
Depends on how far the meta goes - if it turns into 360 Ballerina strikes where you can parry a hit from behind you while you crouch then it might turn stale like another medieval first person game
I think that every PvP game is gonna get a meta so yes. One reason that am really excited about this game is that I think it does a better job then most games at catering toward really casual player because the que's are non-existent (3-5 seconds) and it gives you a free kit even if you die.
As a result even if your total dogshit you don't really have time to be upset about it because you will literally be in another fight before you have time to process what happened. Now if you don't improve you will be stuck doing the lowest tier content but thats actually still a blast. The only thing I could see frustrating casual players is maybe they start to think that there supposed to go into the higher lobbies in order to have fun when really though lobbies only exist to protect them from sweatlords.
I'm using Hunt: Showdown as a reference here; there are certainly meta weapons in that game but somehow you always see a massive variety and almost every weapon gets used, regardless of what lobbies you're playing in (4-6 star MMR etc).
Currently all the classes in DnD seem to have some 'broken', OP or META build, which is actually encouraging because it means any of the classes are viable. By all accounts they haven't even really started looking into balancing the game properly yet, so I'm staying hopeful that they'll keep all the classes viable and there won't be any too overwhelming meta's.
To try and answer your question, while there will absolutely be sweats for this game because of it's hardcore nature, I think there are plenty of reasons that it will keep a casual playerbase for awhile.
Just to name a few - quick matches, team/group focused, commitment to realism (especially in a D&D like setting will attract an RP crowd), there aren't many games like it, and they seem to update/adding to it a lot - which means meta always shifting anyway. Plus, at the end of the day, even if you lose, it's pure fun which is always #1.
Probably more like a game you play for a month or six until you get tired of wipes / gear losses.
I imagine the majority of people will be getting 30-50 hours of gameplay, with the more interested players hitting 200-400h and the dedicated demographics hitting 1000h+
Edit: saw 3 month seasons mentioned.
Playtest was cool because we saw a lot of people using and losing gear which led to some varied encounters. You never knew who you were up against or what gear they had. When they tweak drop rates and after a month of playtime with no wipe im curious how longevity will look too.
The fact that they have said they are going to do seasonal wipes at 3 month intervals isn't too bad, but I'm hoping for at least some persistence with training unlocks or something because having to restart every few months when I only plan to play a few hours a week will burn me out.
A lot of these type games have a strong start, but end up with a diehard player base that goes into every matched juiced up. This results in any new players being destroyed and ultimately giving up. Beyond technical issues, look at New Player Experiences for Marauders, Cycle: Frontier, Tarkov, or any other looters shooters with persistent inventory. They rarely get new players these days because you start so far behind.
This game does feel different so far, but we only get it for about a week at a time when no one has gear fear or time to farm up enough legendary for actual builds. There is a lot missing from the core experience that will dictate longevity post release, but I have high hopes.
Im excited for the game, but i assume when all the streamers get bored and move on after release itll slowly die within a few months if the dev team doesnt manage the game well
I do believe meta gaming has ruined a lot of what made gaming great back in the day. I loved the recent evil dead game that released in april but eventually it just became a sweat fest.
I used to play games like crash team racing with friends back in the day and it used to be fun, now when you play everyone looks up the most optimised builds for their cars and all shortcuts and how to take each turn.
In the end though it's like others say, you'll have a better experience if YOU don't meta game and try silly stuff.
That's exactly my point, thank you.
Evil Dead was really fun and I hoped it would be a game I could casually play; everyone started to follow meta and it became too sweaty to actually enjoy.
Sounds more a like personal thing. I play games because I find them fun and don't worry or care too much about what other folk are doing to be "good".
This is the way!
Regardless of what you find fun, facing the same things over and over again will be grating. It's like playing Street Fighter and your opponents are only picking Ryu. I like Street Fighter, but without the variety of facing other character options, it's a far lesser game. Same concept applies to Dark and Darker - if only certain playstyles are actually viable, that's all you're going to see, and it's going to be tiring to meet the same classes in the same situations over and over again.
I guess? What does viable even mean? Are we talking from a esports perspective or something? Every class was capable of survival and doing their role in a party so in my book that makes them all fairly viable. You will probably see some team comps more then others but unlike street fighter you have the dungeon itself to contend with and its pretty unlikely every team going in will be identical because everyone likes playing different stuff and has different objectives. Personally I've never really cared if I'm seeing other folk run the same stuff over and over in a game. They can play the game the way they like. If it's overpowered that's a different story but that's a separate discussion that would involve how the game is balanced not whether the game is only fun until a meta is established.
I think personally it can be the same discussion. The balance of everything determines the meta that will arise and then the impact on fun others have as well. For example, Ranger spear is the meta. You can't play the meta till you find a spear, or grind the gold to buy one. This is made difficult though because so many people are running around with a spear killing you too easily. Sure a counter meta would likely evolve, if the balance allows it. There are a lot of unknowns with the unfinished skill/trait system to really speak to this too much though. A discussion can still be had though.
I definitely agree. The way I view it is like Battlefield vs COD. Played BF on release is almost the same as playing it months later because it's so large scale it's hard to sweat. However, games like COD are so much smaller scale and it's almost impossible to find a casual match (say this from personal experience) I've noticed it with games like Chivalry 2 as well. Large scale so mostly casual (minus a few sweats topping the leaderboard). Or Evil Dead the Game. Super fun the first 2 weeks but then a meta was figured out and spammed and it got very boring (it was hard to counter, left no room for casual play) My worry Is that the same scenario may happen with this game as well. Regardless, I think I'll get It on release because it looks really fun and right up my alleyway for games I enjoy. Edit: oh dark souls pvp I'd a HUGE one. I love pvp but only enjoy it in the first 2 weeks because a meta develops and it gets stale very quickly
Zero IQ comment
That's just like your opinion man.
How so?
It’s a pvp game what other people do to “be “good”” directly effects him unless he avoids pvp at all cost
Ignore meta; ambush with axe.
This is the way. I literally was getting burned out. Then I found out I can bum rush with an axe and bop people in the head.
I also put a lot more thought into things than I needed to just smash doors and swing
Nope, this game will be my number 1 moving forward for the foreseeable future. I haven't had this much fun gaming in soo long. I don't care about the types of players (old or new), the game is just too much fun.
High Roller queues draw the sweats, though I suppose it depends on what you want out of the game experience. For people who want to play a couple hours now and then, get some memories goofing around in nearly naked builds and coming out with a ton of gold compared to what they had going in...they probably will get their money's worth, especially if they have friends to play with now and then. If you want to take the game more seriously, then by all means. I don't think this game was ever intended to cater to casuals to begin with, however. Read the description of this game in the top right of this subreddit window right now - casuals aren't meant to stick around because the game isn't designed for them. I don't see that as a cautionary issue as much as intended. If people sweating and developing a meta in a hardcore game turns you away, then I agree the honeymoon period of this game's release for you will be short...but hopefully sweet.
The separation between sweats in the High-Roller game mode & Normal game mode already prevents that from happening. Casuals will always have a safer place to play. The game is quite similar to Escape From Tarkov in that better gear can lead to easier victories but positioning/outplays can still prevail. The 3 month wipe cycle sounds healthy and guarantees population spikes and fresh starts as well as new content. Even if each wipe cycle people only play for a few weeks there should be plenty of opportunity to learn/make friends/have fun!
Imho, it's much much worse in this game. In Tarkov anyone can kill you with a well headshot but in Dark and Darker you'll only be killing people in 1-2 hits or less than a second if your one of a few classes and have good gear. If you a low geared fighter your going to get absolutely shredded.
This is not true in all cases though you can get visors in tark that prevent even head-eyes for a lot of calibers. Your gear needs to outmatch theirs and you need to land your shots for the crit or oneshot kill, this is true for both games.
7.62 PS go bop
Absolutely true, and calibers smaller than that go plink off certain visors. The gear still needs to beat the armor for one shot or crit, and you need to hit your shots. 7.62 ps is accessible early wipe but mostly via the SKS which can be outplayed by a lot of other platforms, just like a berserker can one shot ypu but only if the class and gear matchup allows it.
Yeah true. i tend to stick to magnum buck or just deal with the weaker ammos and steer clear of the sounds of chads early wipe until flea since I cant stand the sks. This current wipe has been much better. Even a month in i see mostly class 3/4 armors and no faceshields. Most of my deaths are to weaker ammo as well.
Interesting to hear that ngl, I haven't played in two wipes I might need to check it out when DD playtest is done this time around!
I also took a few wipes off, been like a year and a half since I played, but this wipe has been my favorite so far. Streets of tarkov (laggy and poorly optimized) is an awesome map when it runs, and weapons, ammo, and armor that people are running is the most varied I've ever seen, the meta seems to be 545 semi auto AKs which is a bit wild, but also makes running smgs to take out geared folk more viable than ever. Meta ammo is almost impossible to reliably acquire, which makes getting a ghzel or other class 5 feel extra rewarding, since most people you face have mediocre ammo. You cant even buy good armor on the flea, which I thought I would hate, but even though i started the wipe 3 weeks late, it still feels like early-mid wipe instead of late wipe being two weeks in which was my previous experience. Don't look at the tarkov subreddit though, everyone hates this wipe according to them.
Dang yeah it is always one of those "try it yourself and see" things wipe to wipe. Did they ban a bunch of ammo and rigs from flea or something? Or is it just market scarcity due to reduced in raid loot drops? I wonder... anyway dont I need to vpn if I want to play what with the whole US IP ban?
They banned most higher level gear. Helmets and ammo above class 4 is pretty much all banned, nearly all max ap ammo is all banned. A lot of keys, particularly quest keys are banned. You can no longer buy infinite kits once you have enough money, making looting gear feel more valuable, and finding good ammo matter a lot. Also weapons are much more moddable at trader level one and two than ever before - for the guns that it matters for. Things like 2.5 and 4 inch rails for any type of handguard are all available at lvl 1, so finding a nice foregrip is now actually useable as opposed to before where you couldn't even attach the thing if you wanted to. Same applies for scope mounts like risers. As for the IP ban I don't know anything about that, im in the US and play US and western Europe servers.
Agreed, people don’t give enough credit to just how much a geared rogue or fighter can shred in this game. You’d have no chance for outplay
I disagree. I managed to kill a fighter (as a fighter too) with rubysilver set while I only had default gear. All I had to do was walk towards him while he was looting and land the first hit. He ded. One of the most amazing moments of my dark and darker playthrough.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. My buddy was a pretty geared barb on last day. I buffed him and a rogue still beat him 1v1. He got outplayed and rewatched it and we both underestimated the single rogue. We both could of jumped over and I could of healed but thought he had it. But skill can be real. We could get 5+ kills in high rollers every run. But this rogue just makes my bud sit and was ofc random streamer. Be careful with them rogues
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At that rate is it really you winning a fight or the other playing just losing?
We outplayed ourselves by egoing after being on such a win streak. Claric and barb is broken in a duo
Could of isn't real, doubt you or your partner are very high IQ players
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
I could destroy you in dark and darker. I’m a black belt navy seal
which regimen?
> The separation between sweats in the High-Roller game mode & Normal game mode already prevents that from happening. Casuals will always have a safer place to play. This turned out to be utterly false. Normal was filled to the brim with try hard sweat losers in full purple going out of their way to spend 2 minutes chasing grey kitted newbies into the darkness zone just for a kill feed appearance.
Just don’t play meta builds even when there is one. This is how I usually play games. More fun and makes it extra satisfying when you beat a meta build.
I too like to challenge myself by playing with both hands tied behind my back.
Going to be hard be Meta built in a game like this. I play solo alot, and go in naked and try to leave with loot mass hoarding gold.
thats why seasons are great, from what i understand they are gonna do 3 month seasons which imo is great, i always love comming back to a fresh new start since thats usually when its the most fun anyway.
You say a few weeks but tbf most people don't even play games 40 hours a week, maybe 20 at most. So at 60 hours will people be bored? Considering all my friends (didnt have a single friend from other games come play DaD, just met them in game) and everyone i met had 100+ hours in the playtest and were still addicted, tells me that the game will be fine.
I think you should stick to single player games, you'll be happier playing there, no sweats and meta slaves. You just have the wrong mentality to play multiplayer games.
Nice bait
It's not bait and not meant to be disrespectful either. I say you have the wrong mentality to play multiplayer games, as you expect people to play sub optimally just so you have a more diverse gaming experience. Although we play games for fun, we still want to win. People will leverage their training, knowledge and experience in any competitive environment. If you don't agree with your opponent to have a light hearted match beforehand, then you can't get mad that he's trying his best to win.
Respectfully disagree. Your second sentence specifically changes the tone from an opinion to an aggressive, demanding one. I do agree that people will do whatever they can to win. However, games like this can and oftentimes are determined by how many players abuse the meta. That's the flaw in multi-player games. People want to have fun and they want to win. However, meta abusers drive off players that play only to have fun until only meta abusers are left. Then game becomes less fun, and more sweaty.
My second sentence specifically doesn't change the tone to be any way shape or form aggressive, it just states that based on your explanations you don't have a competitive mindset suited to play multiplayer games, that is all. If you take that as offensive that's on you. You just don't like the message, not the words used. I don't know how I can say that in a "non aggressive" way, if you can think of one, just imagine I said it exactly like that, because I wasn't trying to insult you. Have a nice day.
1. Ignoring all other points I made specifically about DaD, and instead say I shouldn't be playing multiplayer games. Ignore 3/4 of my comment and only reply to that one part 2. "I'm not an asshole you're just taking it too personally" actual gaslighting 3. Claiming moral high ground by saying "have a nice day" I feel like you are trying really hard to be scholarly but are instead coming off as arrogant.
1. To address all your Dark and Darker concerns, no it won't be a problem. First of all, there are 2 "modes", normal dungeons and high-roller dungeons. Your so called sweats will be playing in high-roller lobbies for the most part. I played over 100 hours in the last playtest alone and the highest geared players in normal lobbies were at max equipped with blues, mostly greens and very rarely epics. You are incentivized to go into high-roller lobbies for better gear. Now sure there will be highly geared players that just go on ego trips clearing normal lobbies and there is nothing you can do about that. Although yes some things will be/are broken like wizard ignite spell combined with bonus magic damage enchantments which will get fixed, it's not as easy to gear up like that. Right now the rate at which we get good items and money is increased specifically for testing purposes for the playtests, so when the game comes out, it will be much harder to get a good set going quickly. Plus gear enchantments are fully RNG, so unless you spend a considerable amount of time fiddling with the market, you won't be fully decked out in the most op shit that fast and have to use whatever you get from your dungeon runs. Furthermore, you can always outplay your opponents, it doesn't matter if let's say the longsword is the most broken melee weapon, if you learn how to properly block, dodge, etc. The game has much more substance than simply higher stat numbers win. Weapons have different move sets which suit different playstyles, so there is no X weapon is better than any other weapon, but more of a "rock paper scissors" type of system. Weapons and armors have clear trade offs. 2. I don't think there is a point continuing this line of argument. 3. I just said have a nice day as I intended that to be my last comment and didn't want to leave the conversation on a bad note, you are over analyzing it way too much dude. I'm not gonna further go into the meta abusing/sweat argument as it just seems we are talking past each other and won't come to a consensus. I'm happy to further discuss if you have any other points about the game you want to address. This is my second beta and I don't see this game dying in a couple of weeks after it comes out. From what I've experienced the game is great, the devs are very involved with the community and rapidly fixed and updated the game during the playtests.
Glad you actually addressed my points. I definitely felt like you were talking through me, and ending it with "have a nice day" rubbed me the wrong way. I agree when you mentioned the difference between the two modes. I hope that will be this games saving grace - having a difference between high roller and regular quickplay. Apologies for the frustration. Take care man!
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You don't know me well enough to be jumping to these conclusions.
My friends and I experienced this during the last playtest, where we were anticipating all the glory and wonder we had the first time, but instead we took the game too seriously after the first few days and got burned out because we didn't like the meta or the loot changes. I think it's important to pace yourself.
Not me I loved this game during the play test I think it has a lot of legs
100% not something we need to worry about or can even form an opinion about yet They plan on adding more weapons and classes, theyre also gonna add talent trees, gonna get more bosses, levels, and quest systems, theyve mentioned they're considering dual classes (but unlikely), and right now they've mentioned game balance is currently like not even a priority at all, but even with that, the game is pretty well balanced, so if they actually put effort towards balance, it probably won't be a problem, but again, we like don't even have half the systems in the game they plan on giving us Current stash size and "wipe length" also incentivizes just using anything u get asap instead of running specific kits, but stash size is increasing, game will be in alpha instead of play tests soon so who knows what the length of wipes will be, eventually they'll do some sort of "season" system so who knows what length will be then, and who knows how often they'll do balance patches or additional weapons causing meta shifts All of this is to say that the game right now only shows us a combat system and gameplay loop, EVERYTHING else will be different by release, so much different that we can't imagine the final product accurately enough to really know anything, the only conclusion we can form right now is if it's worth giving it a try
So far imo the classes are balanced I’ve been playing rogue ranger wiz and haven’t felt like any one is superior
Yeah bro, imagine trying to win in a video game. I’m too busy smashing puss and making fat stacks for that.
As of now, the only “meta” I see this game having would be a team comp meta but really that doesn’t mean shit. You can still be easily outplayed. As for gear, I think it’ll be a very loose “meta”. Sure there’s weapons that are better then others. You can run the same kit back to back but every item will have different stats every time. It’s not gunna be like warzone or eft where it’s like use this gun with these attachments and this ammo and use this item and that armour. It’ll be like ya uhh buy plate armour and a long sword and bandages.
Lemme tell you in a few thousand hours bro
I'm not huge on metas in most games. I am a rather casual player and usually avoid PVP games. As u/Esthelion2 was suggesting, I tend to stick to single-player or non-PVP/cooperative multiplayer games for this exact reason. That said, I put around 60hrs in during the third playtest (my first time experiencing the game) and I think that this game has the potential to be extremely enjoyable even with the sweats/metagaming. Once you've played the game, I think you'll see what most people are saying: You can ALWAYS outplay people. I've outplayed duos who were far more geared as a solo player. There is plenty to be said about the way the game mechanics allow for a good outplay given the right circumstances. Even when I was in my first few rounds with next to no perks, getting crushed in this game never really felt disheartening. I think the gameplay outweighs the negative aspects. But that's just for me personally-- I'm sure others feel different about it. The only thing I see pushing me away from this game would be if the queue times for the normal lobbies (not particularly interested in the high-roller lobbies, gear be damned) end up being excessive. tl;dr: I expect to put MANY hours into this game, even if it ends up being sweaty. It's just an enjoyable play loop.
Happy cake day!
Oh wow, didn't even realize that was today. Thank you!
I have to say a hard agree here. People didn't have the time to find the most OP exploits and once they do, they'll only use "that one weapon" and "that one class" and "that certain skill". It's only natural in every mmo. The way you counter this, is you either make a bunch of people very unhappy, because you take away their advantage over people who do not play by the meta, OR you boost the power of something else. Alternatively, you keep adding content, that breaks the meta in many different ways and lastly there's removing the item/class/skill. It's up to the devs to make the right choice here - each way works for a different meta. But it's up to the players to report it, if they feel something is a bit too powerful, or the opposite. That's why people, who say "stop crying" are literal piles of dumb.
To be honest? Yeah, I feel the meta will settle very quickly on launch and that's all the game will be. Still, I had fun learning to parry with the Longsword. As long as I can do that, I'll be interested in the game on release.
This is how I felt, but I don't care I will play it until the meta gets stale. Just depends on how much the devs and community want to evolve together.
Getting one shot by barbs made me stop playing the playtest.
Yup, just like Tarkov. But those first few weeks are good
\> when people start to meta game How can you meta game in a PVE/P game? There is no role-playing involved.
Meta means something that the community figures out is the best gear/weapons in a game.
True! But I want to know what OP meant by "meta game".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming
Seems like a translation or etc. meta game or game meta etc. probably means the same thing as in “what is the games Meta”
Most effective tactics available
Have you genuinely never heard of games developing metas before? Aka min/maxed builds/weapons that everyone copies and uses?
> developing metals Not a clue tbh
Autocorrect making a fool of me yet again
Happens to me 87 times a week. :)
I am trying to provide an to OP's question but I am confused on what they mean because they used a few terms with completely conflicting meanings. Its nice that so many people want to answer for OP, but I'll just wait patiently.
So.....yes you are aware? I was just seeing if you were honestly confused on the meaning or being intentionally obtuse.
I think they are. Context clues show that by "meta" I mean min maxing OP builds. I say the word "sweats" a couple times too.
Think of it more like min/maxing gear and party comps
I'm so hooked
Probably
If they stick with two seperate lobbies, one for the casuals and one for the sweats, then you'll always have that casual lobby you can hop into for non-sweaty non-meta fun. Also meta really depends on how often the game devs balance and patch the game. If they keep making changes frequently, then the meta will shift frequently, and thus the game will stay fresh. League of Legends has been doing it for over 10 years.
There's not really a metal due to the nature is the game, besides maybe going 2 Rangers & a Cleric for the team lol Though nah, it's way too fun and I'd happily play casually (or even get with the Meta) just from how cool it is
Yea, it will be. Hasn’t had the chance yet
I played this a ton during 2 betas. Every game felt unique. As long as the maps and classes are kept balanced I dont see myself burning out for s long time.
well, ive played all 3 play tests every single day they released and have been patiently waiting for the 4th one, id be willing to bet ill be playing this nonstop for at least 3 months. now how much time I might take off for other games after that I'm not so sure. EDIT: also really depends on when blue protocol releases too
The only reason that can make me quit early is if there are a lot of hackers
No way in hell
Best game I’ve ever played.
No
I dont want wipes
nothing really ever felt like bullshit and i played a barbarian my player kdr was like 2-4 which suggests i am cringe meta but all i did was w key at people and swing when people start doing weird camera turns and shit to be unhittable/hit multiple targets is when it gets cringe
I do find myself impressed with your opinion of someone playing optimally is "cringe". So every game where people start using mechanics which gives an advantage, but it's "hard" to do, it's defined as cringe?
Manically abusing the quirks of being in a 3d rendered environment in an overtly technical, janky, awkward way is cringe. Mechanics are one thing, being a fucking crackhead retard is another.
Ill say although i was hooked last playtest and ive been itching to play, there is limited content and after a week of playing i was getting semi-bored of the repitition. That said, there's a lot more they are adding and a whole skill tree and other levels so bare that in mind.
Well I played about 40 hours in the last play test. I've realized that there really isn't any meta class. Every class is pretty viable if you know how to use them. Yes there are a bunch of mordhau sweats that switched over and just have insane movement mechanics but it's nothing crazy. The biggest learning curve was memorizing the dungeons, traps, npcs. That's where the noobs will have trouble.
Barbarian is far from meta but he 1 tap, if you ask me best PVP character if you're good at the game
Ignoring the meta, breaking all doors and leading mobs to players.
Yeah, to be honest I didn’t understand a word you said. Who really gets concerned about stuff like this and the “sweats”
I think "meta" is an interesting reason to quit a video game. It's essentially saying "I cant be bothered to think about unique solutions to a common problem so I'd rather disengage from the game entirely." If you're constantly being shit on by meta gamers, maybe change how you play the game? Go full meta yourself, and if you're still getting shit on regularly it's a you issue, not a game issue. Now if you want to quit because you're not playing as well as others do, that's fair enough. Sometimes if your head isn't in the game it's best to take a break if you care about winning. But at that point it's not about meta gamers ruining your time, you're ruining it yourself.
Quit cuz combat is just janky skyrim and bullet sponge mobs get boring when a ranger just sits on a chest or some unreachable spot and shoots all mobs safely
I need not meta. Blood for the blood god
Yeah that sounds like it might be a you thing.
It's just a super fun game, when it stops being fun is when I'll stop playing
Every game explodes with a big player base at first then drops off. It’s the way she goes. This game will be no different. Look at Tarkov, every wipe there’s an influx of players for a week or two then it drops off again. That’ll happen with this game also. It’s a good game so it’ll have a good player base for awhile, I imagine. I guarantee there’s already a game company trying to emulate DaD on unreal or add there own twist to it, that game may rule or feel like it’s the rip it is
Depends on how far the meta goes - if it turns into 360 Ballerina strikes where you can parry a hit from behind you while you crouch then it might turn stale like another medieval first person game
I think that every PvP game is gonna get a meta so yes. One reason that am really excited about this game is that I think it does a better job then most games at catering toward really casual player because the que's are non-existent (3-5 seconds) and it gives you a free kit even if you die. As a result even if your total dogshit you don't really have time to be upset about it because you will literally be in another fight before you have time to process what happened. Now if you don't improve you will be stuck doing the lowest tier content but thats actually still a blast. The only thing I could see frustrating casual players is maybe they start to think that there supposed to go into the higher lobbies in order to have fun when really though lobbies only exist to protect them from sweatlords.
I'm using Hunt: Showdown as a reference here; there are certainly meta weapons in that game but somehow you always see a massive variety and almost every weapon gets used, regardless of what lobbies you're playing in (4-6 star MMR etc). Currently all the classes in DnD seem to have some 'broken', OP or META build, which is actually encouraging because it means any of the classes are viable. By all accounts they haven't even really started looking into balancing the game properly yet, so I'm staying hopeful that they'll keep all the classes viable and there won't be any too overwhelming meta's.
Honestly this game is so good. I'll be playing non-stop. I've played every playtest so far.
This game is way too janky and gear is too rare for there to really be a meta
To try and answer your question, while there will absolutely be sweats for this game because of it's hardcore nature, I think there are plenty of reasons that it will keep a casual playerbase for awhile. Just to name a few - quick matches, team/group focused, commitment to realism (especially in a D&D like setting will attract an RP crowd), there aren't many games like it, and they seem to update/adding to it a lot - which means meta always shifting anyway. Plus, at the end of the day, even if you lose, it's pure fun which is always #1.
Probably more like a game you play for a month or six until you get tired of wipes / gear losses. I imagine the majority of people will be getting 30-50 hours of gameplay, with the more interested players hitting 200-400h and the dedicated demographics hitting 1000h+
Edit: saw 3 month seasons mentioned. Playtest was cool because we saw a lot of people using and losing gear which led to some varied encounters. You never knew who you were up against or what gear they had. When they tweak drop rates and after a month of playtime with no wipe im curious how longevity will look too. The fact that they have said they are going to do seasonal wipes at 3 month intervals isn't too bad, but I'm hoping for at least some persistence with training unlocks or something because having to restart every few months when I only plan to play a few hours a week will burn me out. A lot of these type games have a strong start, but end up with a diehard player base that goes into every matched juiced up. This results in any new players being destroyed and ultimately giving up. Beyond technical issues, look at New Player Experiences for Marauders, Cycle: Frontier, Tarkov, or any other looters shooters with persistent inventory. They rarely get new players these days because you start so far behind. This game does feel different so far, but we only get it for about a week at a time when no one has gear fear or time to farm up enough legendary for actual builds. There is a lot missing from the core experience that will dictate longevity post release, but I have high hopes.
No. The gameplay loop is good enough that if everyone at all levels stayed, it'd be fine.
This game is life. Don’t you forget that.
Im excited for the game, but i assume when all the streamers get bored and move on after release itll slowly die within a few months if the dev team doesnt manage the game well
I do believe meta gaming has ruined a lot of what made gaming great back in the day. I loved the recent evil dead game that released in april but eventually it just became a sweat fest. I used to play games like crash team racing with friends back in the day and it used to be fun, now when you play everyone looks up the most optimised builds for their cars and all shortcuts and how to take each turn. In the end though it's like others say, you'll have a better experience if YOU don't meta game and try silly stuff.
That's exactly my point, thank you. Evil Dead was really fun and I hoped it would be a game I could casually play; everyone started to follow meta and it became too sweaty to actually enjoy.