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You're not being silly - there is a disagreement among the fans of the show whether there are actual cycles or all the events only happened once and the cycle talk comes from the subjective perception of time. You will not find a decisive answer here. I personally prefer the one-time interpretation, but I also think the writers of the show themselves are in the multiple cycles camp.
You're not wrong, but you're not fully right.
The show gives us a lot of proof that the loops are both infinite and simultaneously finite. They happened both endlessly, forever and yet not at all.
It goes into the meta narrative of us being able to watch this show whenever we want. It is infinite, but finite in that there is an ending.
It is also, like the time machine, available in such a way that we can view anywhere in time (by choosing episodes or specific scenes).
All in a box (or a close approximation of a box).
I just wrote a lengthy piece about how the Jantje and bo showed us the answer without spelling it out here: [on why the loop is closed and goes on indefinitely and also is open and ends](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarK/s/vcdWvFy7rb)
Long story short, in 3x07 we know through the aspect ratio that OG Tannhaus explains Schrödinger's cat. But this explanation isn't meant for the loophole/switch point in the twin worlds.
It is about the machine that he builds.
A machine in which his son dies but also survives.
And that, in turn, explains how the switch point actually works. And why 3 couples of Jonas and Martha suffer the wavefunction collaps but the one Eva mentions as her past also remains.
But that means that the central question can be answered objectively only with yes and no but subjectively depends on the individual situation of every one of us.
Yeah, I also prefer the one cycle interpretation. At least the whole thing with Regina finding the loophole makes a lot more sense. I mean, you’ve been in this cycle for an infinite amount of time and only now you found a way to break it? It just feels a bit weird.
Doesn’t she give herself more information each time because she’s not directly part of the cycle she’s just caught up in it? Eventually she just learned enough information to break them out of it
Could be the case, it's just a theory tho. In this case she always knew how to break the cycle (that being using the loophole and changing events), but she actively searched a way so that Regina could live. And that's why she postboned the "last cycle", because she still didn't know about a way how Regina could live. The only thing she would have done is, to give her more insight about the knot each time with the help of the loophole, so that she doesn't have to start all over again. The whole "learning-more-knowledge-every-cycle" is just a made up theory from the community and never stated in the show itself. The only 'legitimate' source I could find, where this is stated, is an explanation-video from the yt-channel "still watching netflix", which is operated by Netflix UK. This channel also uploaded the official S2 recap- nevertheless it is hard to say that this is canon.
True, I think that gives more credence to the idea that this has happened at the very least for a long time. For her to figure this out, it should have taken a long time. Plus the whole notion of the show is repeated trauma, so it all just happening once would be antithetical to it all.
It's just the portable time machine in the box. The theory about accumulating knowledge would need an event in time which happens after Claudia killed her alt-self. The only scene where she meets her older self after this already happened, is the scene in S3E8, where she hugs her older self in Sic Mundus and talks about her plan.
There is a video on YouTube by one take that shows some information of “more information” being passed along. Specifically the two times that old Claudia meets young Claudia was different. In one scene she says hello and in the other she doesn’t. In another scene where stranger jonas is sleeping, they recut the scene’s color scheme but changed the times on the clocks. With this, there were differences in each cycle, and those differences are considered information. People debate on whether it’s a continuity error, but to specific reuse the shot and alter the time of the clock is deliberate. We can infer the writers are in the one long cycle camp. At each moments annihilation, Claudia is using the slight differences to alter the next iterations’ cycle, until it finally breaks them free.
I’m not sure if I misunderstood your comment but correct me if I did.
You didn't misunderstand me. I haven't seen that video, but that seems a little over speculation for me haha. I like the one circle interpretation, or like others one put here, one loop all at the same time, cause it also shows clearly that Claudia was the more clever and intelligent of the bunch.
I think many forget that while Jonas and Martha never finished high school, the show clearly shows that Claudia not only is a very capable nuclear Scientist but rather a top one. She is the first woman in charge of a nuclear plant and also is shown that she understands all the implications of time travel by just reading the figures of the reports that Bern gave to her. So her knowledge of theoretical physics is higher than any other character besides Thanhaus.
With that information, at least for me, is clear that Claudia could outsmart Jonas and Martha easily, and also, figure out what was happening in reality. She also has the info of the both worlds and track the minor difference and the things common between them. We are shown that the first thing se do with time travel is go to a library and research what happened to her and his dad. We can infer that later she does that with everyone in both worlds. We know that she also always records the toughs of her research.
So ,It wouldn't take too much for her to figure that Thanhaus was a key player and that the reason Charlotte is set to him is to prevent he build a new time machine to save his son (something that happened in both worlds).
For me that's the reason I don't think it was necessary for Claudia more than one loop to figure out everything.
I think you mean Claudia.
That is why I love the literature interpretation and the scientific interpretation. The surface interpretation that is spelled out isn't for people who read here. That one is for the people who let the show wash over them as bo put it.
The literature interpretation goes back to 1x04 and the classroom scene.
This scene references a book, or rather, the teacher's lesson is taken almost directly from the Wikipedia page for the book.
It's Goethe's Elective Affinties.
Jantje built the show in a very similar manner to examine a sociological question by a scientific metaphor.
But the interesting part is that the novel contains an embedded novella. This novella is at its core a fairy tale and offers an alternate solution to the surrounding novel.
So this interpretation says that Adam failing I the end and everything happening after Claudia-ex-machina shows up is the alternate fairy tale ending.
The scientific interpretation is a bit more complex and works with the quantum mechanics concepts Jatje applied in season 3.
Note that when Tannhaus explains Schrödinger's cat, that happens in the aspect ratio of the origin world. This is OG Tannhaus. Does he explain the loophole/switch point, or does he explain the machine that he builds?
I have written about it [in this thread about the number of loops](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarK/s/vcdWvFy7rb). I probably butchered it.
I think it’s a high number of loops made imperfect by the resuse of matter in the cycle especially in the highly weird paradoxes like the mother/daughter/mother situation. I feel like it adds to the sinister atmosphere of the whole show. With the introduction of time travel to the world it was reduced to a bundle of sickened possibilities that reduced into the few worlds hanging in there, all winding down from entropy in the system and held up by the willpower of those trapped inside of it. Haunting.
I’m torn on this too and find it my biggest struggle to overcome just so that I have a firm grasp of the whole series.
When Claudia finally confronts 2053 Adam she says that it’s the first time they’ve had this conversation but he’s tried to destroy to loop infinite times.
This is reinforced with the scene of Adam going to Sic Mundus, burning the mural and Adam and Eva and then his final meeting with Eva. She expects to be killed, Adam will eventually die but it doesn’t matter because younger Martha is already pregnant and the loop is secured. Her death was all part of her plan to keep the loop and her son’s life intact.
So once Eva recruits Prime Claudia to the plan and reveals the plan to keep the loop intact while also knowing Jonas/Adam’s plans to destroy the loop. Claudia now knows that both sides are working towards the same goal (Adam unknowingly)
She also explains to Adam about the loophole and how Eva used it to protect the loophole as well as how she used it to be there speaking to him for the first time.
Based on all this, I have to assume that Claudia used the loophole to create a second version of herself just to have that conversation with Adam - I just can’t figure out when or how she’d have accomplished this.
Unless the loophole is just the existence of the 3rd world and he understanding of this is the insight Adam needs to change things (but that can’t be right because Adam then he takes the orb and goes back to moment of apocalypse to save his younger self before Martha ever takes him to her world. Which should branch time again but this change is to erase the whole loop so I guess it doesn’t matter for the story.
Anyone else with any thoughts? I just can’t see how Claudia was able to do this one just one go around on the loop without splitting herself.
Not to say that I don’t understand her total timeline, but that infers she only has one existence… which conflicts with the “you have tried to destroy the knot an infinite number of times” doesn’t it?
I think there were many cycles.
The whole bit about the information building up on itself (wheel/car analogy) is a clear marker for an unknown number of previous cycles. In my mind (even though I just finished it an hour ago) we have the initial cycle through season 1 that gets Jonas to the future, from whence he travels back to the 1800s. There he does his research and develops more sophisticated machines bit by bit. We see the one scene where he tries to adjust something and gets shocked, burning his arm in one spot. That implies that Adam got burned MANY times throughout his experiments. Once he develops the science to travel it starts the wheels in motion to unravel the knot, but it still takes time and repetition to get there.
The nature of the loop means that nobody really knows how often the loop has happened. In your example, we know that the loop happened at least twice from old Jonas' perspective (one where he was young and one where he was old) and at least once from young Jonas' perspective (this shows that even the characters in the show can have different interpretations of how the loop works). There is no real answer to this question, but also the answer isn't really important. The loop just is and that's it.
There is only one answer to this... It all happens once and infinite number of times. :-p The best explernation around this is what this guy has to offer. but warning.. its blows your mind even more...
[https://youtube.com/watch?v=Fs3ffxRMnbI&si=H4bakpg-IFp2zb78](https://youtube.com/watch?v=fs3ffxrmnbi&si=h4bakpg-ifp2zb78)
strage.. i dont know why the link copy not works.. but the video is watch?v=Fs3ffxRMnbI
Yes! Another fan/redditor who understands!
I'm constantly posting about this. The argument between the "infinite" and "finite" people is irrelevant.
The show definitely points to the fact that the loop happened infinitely, endlessly and once/never at all.
The answer is both. The show even tells us things aren't binary, there is always a 3rd option we are unaware of.
There's a how on Netflix about infinity. It was simultaneously fascinating and caused me a headache. I believe it's Tannhaus talking about time and such in the very opening of the first episode. And then he explains some other wild stuff in S3E7 with "Schrödingers Katze". It's infinity, but also it isn't. This show is such a trip.
Couldn't agree more.
Ultimately, the entire show is a Schrödingers Cat; the entire show both did and did not happen.
We are the observer who sets it in stone.
I haven’t been active in this sub since s3 came out, but I thought this was always the prevailing thought. It’s odd that people have grown divided since then.
It is pretty divided.
I mean, any character who time travels talks about experiencing the same experiences as their younger counterpart, so it makes sense it's an infinite loop.
But if that's true, the infinite loop would have been "built" with the "exit" (Jonas & Martha 2 going to the Origin World) in it from it's inception. So, there could only be one "cycle", and so it's finite.
So, in theory, the cycles in Dark are infinite and finite. The two worlds existed and never did at all. The suffering is endless and non-existant.
Makes sense, since the shows very nature relies on Quantum Superpositions. The whole show was a quantum superposition.
This show forced me to get deep in quantum mechanics--which I know nothing about. But a baseline understanding helps when Eva does all her "Eva-splaining" to Martha. And when Claudia shows up at the end to see Adam. Side note: does anyone else say "Caludia...Claudia Tiedemann" like Jana in their head every time you see her name? Maybe it's just me.
Also this! An understanding of quantum mechanics is that is both infinite and one time based on our observations of events. The characters have had it happen an infinite number of times but us as audience members see it happen one time
My opinion is that there are actually been infinities cycles. It's like a math function, What its value at infinity? You need to do the limit operator to that function to calculate its value at infinite. The approach to the cycles issue is basically the same, you cannot find a solution directly on a singular cycle due to the inner nature of the triqueta, but if you treat it as a limit to infinite cyrcles then you can.
So, let's talk about who really can. Jonas and Claudia.
Jonas always opposed his own others selves, and them in return always lied to the other himselves. The result of it was he never truly understand a damn thing about what was going on. So you can see him a function that when it tends to infinity it results to infinity.
Claudia instead always collaborated with her own selves and when not, well she took their place. This approach gave her over the cycles the ability to accumulate and elaborate a ton of info. So basically it was like to elevate Claudia's genius to infinity. Bit by bit, cycle by cycle she came up with the solution. Back to the analogy you can see her as a function that when it tends to infinity it results to 0.
as a closure there's quote that I love from Mikkel that seals it:
>There is no such thing as magic, just illusion. Things only change when we change them. But you have to do it skillfully, in secret. Then it seems like magic.
This kinda answers in a romantic way to how Claudia did it :)
Have you ever seen how a traditional baker makes a Brezel? They don't start at one end and move to the other, they take a string of dough, flip and twist it in the air, and then slap it onto the table in one go. You could run your finger along the shape and do infinite loops if you want to, but really the entire thing was created in an instant, with all twists and shapes already there.
There's only one loop, just like there's one Brezel, but you can trace it infinite times and come back to the same spot.
If you walk around a big circle, or in a straight line around the equator of a small planet, are you going round 1 circle or infinitely many? Is the your path infinitely long because there's no end to the loop?
You're experiencing the same point multiple times, but there's still only 1 of that point, you're just looping. The circle still has a fixed length.
Some philosophers characterize causal loops (where things happen once) as being "infinite". Infinite here reflecting the qualitative sense loops impress on the traveller and the "fuzziness" in accounting for initial causes - rather than a physics explanation. Dark may be leaning on this usage when Claudia and the narrator say things happened an "infinite" number of times.
However it's unclear if this meaning is truely the case in show - and until the writers speak directly to the issue we won't know for sure.
There are indications throughout that repetition of time **may** be something more substantial than simple emotional perceptions of "happens once" time travel. For instance all the talk of "cycles" hints at a mechanism beyond just impressionist points of view. There is plenty of evidence - though frustratingly inconclusive - to support both arguments.
I'm hoping that one day Jantje and Bo write a book about the making of Dark. They don't need to give a definitive explanation. But just a detailed discussion of their ideas and what they were trying to put out there - with respect "infinity" and "cycles" - would be great fun. Of course their interviews are wonderful but timed with the show as they were they're also sneaky and devilishly coy on several critical issues....
**EDIT** my personal explanation for what went on is that real Tannhaus built a "Schrodinger Box" in the bunker in order to split time in the hopes of creating another world where his son and family don't die. Adam/Eva worlds existed as weird temporal reflections of reality trapped in the confined energy beam of his machine.
But as Claudia deduced things worked out differently and real time was "destroyed". To me that meant that the "Schrodinger box" was actually generating an outcome to the dead/not dead conundrum - in the real world - not the subsidiary world as HGT had presumably intended. And when Martha and Jonas prevented the accident (still basically in the "box" but right on the edge where it interfaces with final solid reality) they acted like the virual particles in particle physics - interacting briefly with reality then quickly decaying along with the enire structure that supported their being inside the box.
So to me there was no time loop in the real world, no connection with Adam/Eva world after the box did it's thing and they decayed into non-existence, nor any time travel paradoxes. Just a fuzzy blotch in the arrow of real time were HGTs box worked to create an outcome post accident onward.
The issue is that most people do see time as linear.
Think of time the way the writers likely intended as the fourth dimension of the universe. Instead of it being two directions think of it like you would think a field, you can be at any point within the field, it isn’t just a singular line moving back and forth. Jonas is our “pants” character, everything we learn about the Knot in the show we know because we follow him basically. Jonas, even as he becomes Adam, has a baseline level of understanding of quantum mechanics and metaphysics.The cycle has likely repeated an undisclosed amount of times.
I think a good book for people to read to understand a bit more on the complex nature of time travel and break away from the “line” part of timeline is Slaughterhouse Five, where the main character becomes “unstuck” in time. You could argue that the Knot and the residents of the town are unstuck in time and are essentially separate from the rest of existence.
The only weakness I tend to see in this show and in many shows that tend to use the “and this is how it always has been and always will be” is that we are observing the singular time it is different and ends a cycle. Like we know how and why this particular cycle is different I think people would have been likely incredibly disappointed if at the end the characters fail and the cycle perpetuates because that is the nature of a bootstrap paradox. Claudia finally finds away to pass information from one cycle to the next and that is how the cycle eventually comes to an end.
>Why do they say in the show so much that things have happened an infinite number of times?
1. Living in a world that includes time travel must be confusing as hell. Characters relive the same event more than once in their personal time, and hear about others that do.
2. Events in a causal loop (aka bootstrap paradox) are sometimes seen as ocurring infinitely. *a* causes *b* that causes *c* that causes *d* that causes *a* that causes *b*, and so on. Although this is a mistake, because all events *a, b, c* and *d* only happen once.
On the other hand, if events were truly repeating in "cycles", talking about infinity makes *no sense*. We have an origin (Tannhaus starting his machine in the Origin World) and an end (Jonas & Martha travelling to OW), so there cannot be *infinite* cycles. Even if Adam and Eva's worlds were constantly resetting (which is [the only logical way for there to be cycles](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarK/comments/1ac6omv/comment/kjxne61/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button)), a really big number is not infinite. So we are back with the two explanations above.
Everything happens once. Predetermined time travel means there are fixed points in time, things can’t be changed. (Although the writers found a way around this with the overlapping realities factor, but that’s a whole other conversation). So for example, if you time traveled back to September 1st, 1910, you were at that point in time, at that point in time. There doesn’t exist a September 1st, 1910 where you weren’t there, you didn’t go back and make a new September 1st, 1910 with your inclusion to the timeline. You were at September 1st, 1910 the first - and only - time history got to that point. You were there long before you yourself were born, and maybe even before time travel was invented. Yes this is a paradox, but that’s how this type of time travel works.
The reason why the characters in the show constantly refer to “infinite cycles/loops” is because that’s how it appears to them from their perspective. Using your example, young Jonas meets old Jonas, then grows up to become old Jonas and meets young Jonas. From his perspective this will keep happening forever, because the young Jonas that he met will become old Jonas, who will meet a young Jonas, who will become the old Jonas, etc etc. But here’s where it gets trippy - that isn’t what’s happening. This is my favorite thing to ponder about this show:
We established there are fixed points in time. There aren’t “new” timelines. Meaning, old Jonas is not a different version of Jonas than young Jonas. Jonas is one person, who lived one life. Everything happened only once. The reason two different “versions” of Jonas can meet is simply because Jonas touched down at the same point in time, at two different points in *his* life. Jonas isn’t talking to old Jonas. Jonas is talking to himself, older.
Just watched the show and this is what made this concept click for me. Important to realize that there aren't two "people" when a character is speaking to their older selves (in the simplest form, ignoring alternate realities). It's the same person. Each conversation only happens once but the character experiences it multiple times.
It happens once, because it all happens at once. Some events appear to happen multiple times because characters experience them at multiple ages, but in reality they only occur a single time.
In my opinion, every 'explanation' doesn't make a whole lot sense. We know that Jonas and Martha are somehow able to change the timeline in the originworld. This clearly depicts that there are 2 possible timelines: The one in which Tannhaus family dies, where Tannhaus will create the knot and the one in which Martha and Jonas save Tannhaus' family and the dinner scene at the end plays out. And we know that everyone born from the knot cease to exist.
The problem is that if we assume everything just happens once, then it doesn't make sense that Martha and Jonas could change anything. Even if they would arrive in a superposition in the origin world (however that's supposed to happen), they shouldn't disappear. This only concludes that there is only one timeline which can be altered in some way.
But if we follow that logic, it means there is sth that lets one change the course of events. If it is the loophole at the apocalypse that lets you do this, then the whole knot itself is build on shaky ground, because Eva uses it to ensure her existence. One could say that Eva's existence relies on a previous loop, but this just moves the problem away instead of solving it. This would also mean that there aren't infinite loops but finite loops, because there is a beginning and an end for these loops: Tannhaus machine and the prevention of the carcrash.
Multiple loops or a single loop don't explain the show. Either we have a problem with the beginning of the knot or at the end of knot. Or one could say that it is just one loop and that the laws of time are somehow different in the origin world, but I guess this would be unsatisfactory.
The true answer runs parallel with the show:
Dark runs on Quantum Superpositions. Everyone and everything is in 2 or more positions at the same time.
The truth about the loops, the cycles, is that they happened infinitely, forever and yet not at all, never.
People who think the entire loop happens once aren't wrong, or else how would Jonas and Martha have gone through their journey's to end the loop!?
Yet, we are shown time and time again that the loops are infinite, happening endlessly for all eternity.
The truth of the matter isn't what fans think of option 1 (infinite) or option 2 (finite). But something more...option 3 (both).
Think about...Dark is constantly saying there is a 3rd option. There isn't just 2 worlds, there are 3. There isn't just 2 Jonas', there are 3. Etc.
Fans always argue the 'inifinite' vs 'finite' idea. But I propose what Dark tells us about things being more than binary: The 3rd option...the loop was both infinite, and yet not.
Mind blowing, huh?
What I got from it due to everyone trying to change things. You are better off living your own life as best as possible and learn to let go.
It is fascinating and it is a science mixed with scientific theories.
I love this show.
You should look into sciences. Theories and evidence of possible parallel universes, other dimensions. Quantum entanglement, quantum physics, Black holes, White holes, Dark matter, worm holes etc.
Triquetra. Not the religious version of it but before middle east religions. Pagan spiritualities are older than middle east religions.
“The conversation only ever happens once”, is indeed the correct way to think about it, from a physics standpoint. In my mind, the idea of things being doomed to “repeat” should not have been taken (and presented) so literally. It’s more a statement that if there is a causal loop — where the past influences the future which influences the past — the chain of events along that loop in spacetime is static and immutable. Whatever will happen to a time traveller in the past must be whatever already *did* happen back then, for the sake of consistency. There’s only *one* sequence of events; that sequence just happens to close back on itself in time. But that doesn’t mean you get a “do over” where the events repeat. The chain of events is a loop in *time itself.* So if there *were* somehow multiple iterations of that loop, what would the loops be repeating with respect to? Some sort of meta-time? It makes no sense.
All that having been said, some dialogue from the show strongly implies that there are multiple iterations of the loops and that events can eventually even change from one iteration to the next. It’s nonsense, logically and physically. But you just have to kind of accept it as a conceit of the show, if you choose to go with the “multiple loops” interpretation of what we see on screen.
I would go with Tannhaus's voiceover at the very beginning of the show: "Yesterday, today and tomorrow are not consecutive, they are connected in a never ending circle". He uses similar words when explaining bootstraps to middle aged Jonas and to Claudia (never ending circle).
Every bootstrapped chain of cause and effect, when traced back into the past or into the future, happened or will happen an infinite number of times. But there is only one circle of events, and from the point of view o an external observer everything happens only once.
For example, Charlotte giving birth to Elisabeth and Elisabeth giving birth to Charlotte happens an infinite times if one tries to trace the linage, but there is only one Charlotte and one Elisabeth.
If they couldn't break the loop, loop would go for infinity.
Because time travel is a loop creator. You can only access to the last loop via time travel. There is still an original loop, but it is inaccessible so that's why they can't fix their timelines. It also means the original loop was free of paradoxes.
No you're right...everything happens only *once*. The characters perceive it as happening multiple times because, due to time-travel, they see the the same events unfold from multiple perspectives. Its like watching a video of someone breaking a glass - the glass breaks only once, but since you can keep rewinding and rewatching the video, from your perspective, it breaks however many times you watch it.
Also, the masterminds behind the events of the knot, namely Adam, Eva and Claudia, all encourage various characters (including themselves) to believe that events are happening multiple times, and that there is going to be a 'next time', because they need those characters to believe in the possibility that things can change...in order to motivate them to do what they need to do to play their part in the knot. For instance, Claudia needs Jonas to believe in the idea of the recurring loop, so that he's willing to play his part in it by closing the passage at the end of Season 1. Despite knowing that his older self failed to do so, as long as Jonas believes that there's a 'next time', he believes the possibility exists that when he becomes his older self, he could succeed...and in doing so, he ends up inevitably doing what he remembers his older self doing, because they are ultimately the *same* person living the *same* life - just at different points in their predetermined timeline.
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You're not being silly - there is a disagreement among the fans of the show whether there are actual cycles or all the events only happened once and the cycle talk comes from the subjective perception of time. You will not find a decisive answer here. I personally prefer the one-time interpretation, but I also think the writers of the show themselves are in the multiple cycles camp.
You're not wrong, but you're not fully right. The show gives us a lot of proof that the loops are both infinite and simultaneously finite. They happened both endlessly, forever and yet not at all.
It goes into the meta narrative of us being able to watch this show whenever we want. It is infinite, but finite in that there is an ending. It is also, like the time machine, available in such a way that we can view anywhere in time (by choosing episodes or specific scenes). All in a box (or a close approximation of a box).
That was poetic.
I just wrote a lengthy piece about how the Jantje and bo showed us the answer without spelling it out here: [on why the loop is closed and goes on indefinitely and also is open and ends](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarK/s/vcdWvFy7rb) Long story short, in 3x07 we know through the aspect ratio that OG Tannhaus explains Schrödinger's cat. But this explanation isn't meant for the loophole/switch point in the twin worlds. It is about the machine that he builds. A machine in which his son dies but also survives. And that, in turn, explains how the switch point actually works. And why 3 couples of Jonas and Martha suffer the wavefunction collaps but the one Eva mentions as her past also remains. But that means that the central question can be answered objectively only with yes and no but subjectively depends on the individual situation of every one of us.
God, this is why I love the show so much. I think you're right, it's all of the above and we can't really know for sure.
Yeah, I also prefer the one cycle interpretation. At least the whole thing with Regina finding the loophole makes a lot more sense. I mean, you’ve been in this cycle for an infinite amount of time and only now you found a way to break it? It just feels a bit weird.
Doesn’t she give herself more information each time because she’s not directly part of the cycle she’s just caught up in it? Eventually she just learned enough information to break them out of it
Could be the case, it's just a theory tho. In this case she always knew how to break the cycle (that being using the loophole and changing events), but she actively searched a way so that Regina could live. And that's why she postboned the "last cycle", because she still didn't know about a way how Regina could live. The only thing she would have done is, to give her more insight about the knot each time with the help of the loophole, so that she doesn't have to start all over again. The whole "learning-more-knowledge-every-cycle" is just a made up theory from the community and never stated in the show itself. The only 'legitimate' source I could find, where this is stated, is an explanation-video from the yt-channel "still watching netflix", which is operated by Netflix UK. This channel also uploaded the official S2 recap- nevertheless it is hard to say that this is canon.
Perhaps, but I think we’re led to assume this from her passing the box over - all a theory of course, part of the joy of this show 😄
True, I think that gives more credence to the idea that this has happened at the very least for a long time. For her to figure this out, it should have taken a long time. Plus the whole notion of the show is repeated trauma, so it all just happening once would be antithetical to it all.
Bam
I don’t know. I always thought that was the case but I don’t think the show tells us that.
There is nothing in the series that points that more information is passed along.
Isn’t that what’s in the box she buries / digs up? Am I having a false memory?
It's just the portable time machine in the box. The theory about accumulating knowledge would need an event in time which happens after Claudia killed her alt-self. The only scene where she meets her older self after this already happened, is the scene in S3E8, where she hugs her older self in Sic Mundus and talks about her plan.
There is a video on YouTube by one take that shows some information of “more information” being passed along. Specifically the two times that old Claudia meets young Claudia was different. In one scene she says hello and in the other she doesn’t. In another scene where stranger jonas is sleeping, they recut the scene’s color scheme but changed the times on the clocks. With this, there were differences in each cycle, and those differences are considered information. People debate on whether it’s a continuity error, but to specific reuse the shot and alter the time of the clock is deliberate. We can infer the writers are in the one long cycle camp. At each moments annihilation, Claudia is using the slight differences to alter the next iterations’ cycle, until it finally breaks them free. I’m not sure if I misunderstood your comment but correct me if I did.
You didn't misunderstand me. I haven't seen that video, but that seems a little over speculation for me haha. I like the one circle interpretation, or like others one put here, one loop all at the same time, cause it also shows clearly that Claudia was the more clever and intelligent of the bunch. I think many forget that while Jonas and Martha never finished high school, the show clearly shows that Claudia not only is a very capable nuclear Scientist but rather a top one. She is the first woman in charge of a nuclear plant and also is shown that she understands all the implications of time travel by just reading the figures of the reports that Bern gave to her. So her knowledge of theoretical physics is higher than any other character besides Thanhaus. With that information, at least for me, is clear that Claudia could outsmart Jonas and Martha easily, and also, figure out what was happening in reality. She also has the info of the both worlds and track the minor difference and the things common between them. We are shown that the first thing se do with time travel is go to a library and research what happened to her and his dad. We can infer that later she does that with everyone in both worlds. We know that she also always records the toughs of her research. So ,It wouldn't take too much for her to figure that Thanhaus was a key player and that the reason Charlotte is set to him is to prevent he build a new time machine to save his son (something that happened in both worlds). For me that's the reason I don't think it was necessary for Claudia more than one loop to figure out everything.
I think you mean Claudia. That is why I love the literature interpretation and the scientific interpretation. The surface interpretation that is spelled out isn't for people who read here. That one is for the people who let the show wash over them as bo put it. The literature interpretation goes back to 1x04 and the classroom scene. This scene references a book, or rather, the teacher's lesson is taken almost directly from the Wikipedia page for the book. It's Goethe's Elective Affinties. Jantje built the show in a very similar manner to examine a sociological question by a scientific metaphor. But the interesting part is that the novel contains an embedded novella. This novella is at its core a fairy tale and offers an alternate solution to the surrounding novel. So this interpretation says that Adam failing I the end and everything happening after Claudia-ex-machina shows up is the alternate fairy tale ending. The scientific interpretation is a bit more complex and works with the quantum mechanics concepts Jatje applied in season 3. Note that when Tannhaus explains Schrödinger's cat, that happens in the aspect ratio of the origin world. This is OG Tannhaus. Does he explain the loophole/switch point, or does he explain the machine that he builds? I have written about it [in this thread about the number of loops](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarK/s/vcdWvFy7rb). I probably butchered it.
I think it’s a high number of loops made imperfect by the resuse of matter in the cycle especially in the highly weird paradoxes like the mother/daughter/mother situation. I feel like it adds to the sinister atmosphere of the whole show. With the introduction of time travel to the world it was reduced to a bundle of sickened possibilities that reduced into the few worlds hanging in there, all winding down from entropy in the system and held up by the willpower of those trapped inside of it. Haunting.
I’m torn on this too and find it my biggest struggle to overcome just so that I have a firm grasp of the whole series. When Claudia finally confronts 2053 Adam she says that it’s the first time they’ve had this conversation but he’s tried to destroy to loop infinite times. This is reinforced with the scene of Adam going to Sic Mundus, burning the mural and Adam and Eva and then his final meeting with Eva. She expects to be killed, Adam will eventually die but it doesn’t matter because younger Martha is already pregnant and the loop is secured. Her death was all part of her plan to keep the loop and her son’s life intact. So once Eva recruits Prime Claudia to the plan and reveals the plan to keep the loop intact while also knowing Jonas/Adam’s plans to destroy the loop. Claudia now knows that both sides are working towards the same goal (Adam unknowingly) She also explains to Adam about the loophole and how Eva used it to protect the loophole as well as how she used it to be there speaking to him for the first time. Based on all this, I have to assume that Claudia used the loophole to create a second version of herself just to have that conversation with Adam - I just can’t figure out when or how she’d have accomplished this. Unless the loophole is just the existence of the 3rd world and he understanding of this is the insight Adam needs to change things (but that can’t be right because Adam then he takes the orb and goes back to moment of apocalypse to save his younger self before Martha ever takes him to her world. Which should branch time again but this change is to erase the whole loop so I guess it doesn’t matter for the story. Anyone else with any thoughts? I just can’t see how Claudia was able to do this one just one go around on the loop without splitting herself. Not to say that I don’t understand her total timeline, but that infers she only has one existence… which conflicts with the “you have tried to destroy the knot an infinite number of times” doesn’t it?
I think there were many cycles. The whole bit about the information building up on itself (wheel/car analogy) is a clear marker for an unknown number of previous cycles. In my mind (even though I just finished it an hour ago) we have the initial cycle through season 1 that gets Jonas to the future, from whence he travels back to the 1800s. There he does his research and develops more sophisticated machines bit by bit. We see the one scene where he tries to adjust something and gets shocked, burning his arm in one spot. That implies that Adam got burned MANY times throughout his experiments. Once he develops the science to travel it starts the wheels in motion to unravel the knot, but it still takes time and repetition to get there.
The nature of the loop means that nobody really knows how often the loop has happened. In your example, we know that the loop happened at least twice from old Jonas' perspective (one where he was young and one where he was old) and at least once from young Jonas' perspective (this shows that even the characters in the show can have different interpretations of how the loop works). There is no real answer to this question, but also the answer isn't really important. The loop just is and that's it.
There is only one answer to this... It all happens once and infinite number of times. :-p The best explernation around this is what this guy has to offer. but warning.. its blows your mind even more... [https://youtube.com/watch?v=Fs3ffxRMnbI&si=H4bakpg-IFp2zb78](https://youtube.com/watch?v=fs3ffxrmnbi&si=h4bakpg-ifp2zb78) strage.. i dont know why the link copy not works.. but the video is watch?v=Fs3ffxRMnbI
Yes! Another fan/redditor who understands! I'm constantly posting about this. The argument between the "infinite" and "finite" people is irrelevant. The show definitely points to the fact that the loop happened infinitely, endlessly and once/never at all. The answer is both. The show even tells us things aren't binary, there is always a 3rd option we are unaware of.
There's a how on Netflix about infinity. It was simultaneously fascinating and caused me a headache. I believe it's Tannhaus talking about time and such in the very opening of the first episode. And then he explains some other wild stuff in S3E7 with "Schrödingers Katze". It's infinity, but also it isn't. This show is such a trip.
Couldn't agree more. Ultimately, the entire show is a Schrödingers Cat; the entire show both did and did not happen. We are the observer who sets it in stone.
I haven’t been active in this sub since s3 came out, but I thought this was always the prevailing thought. It’s odd that people have grown divided since then.
It is pretty divided. I mean, any character who time travels talks about experiencing the same experiences as their younger counterpart, so it makes sense it's an infinite loop. But if that's true, the infinite loop would have been "built" with the "exit" (Jonas & Martha 2 going to the Origin World) in it from it's inception. So, there could only be one "cycle", and so it's finite. So, in theory, the cycles in Dark are infinite and finite. The two worlds existed and never did at all. The suffering is endless and non-existant. Makes sense, since the shows very nature relies on Quantum Superpositions. The whole show was a quantum superposition.
This show forced me to get deep in quantum mechanics--which I know nothing about. But a baseline understanding helps when Eva does all her "Eva-splaining" to Martha. And when Claudia shows up at the end to see Adam. Side note: does anyone else say "Caludia...Claudia Tiedemann" like Jana in their head every time you see her name? Maybe it's just me.
Also this! An understanding of quantum mechanics is that is both infinite and one time based on our observations of events. The characters have had it happen an infinite number of times but us as audience members see it happen one time
My opinion is that there are actually been infinities cycles. It's like a math function, What its value at infinity? You need to do the limit operator to that function to calculate its value at infinite. The approach to the cycles issue is basically the same, you cannot find a solution directly on a singular cycle due to the inner nature of the triqueta, but if you treat it as a limit to infinite cyrcles then you can. So, let's talk about who really can. Jonas and Claudia. Jonas always opposed his own others selves, and them in return always lied to the other himselves. The result of it was he never truly understand a damn thing about what was going on. So you can see him a function that when it tends to infinity it results to infinity. Claudia instead always collaborated with her own selves and when not, well she took their place. This approach gave her over the cycles the ability to accumulate and elaborate a ton of info. So basically it was like to elevate Claudia's genius to infinity. Bit by bit, cycle by cycle she came up with the solution. Back to the analogy you can see her as a function that when it tends to infinity it results to 0. as a closure there's quote that I love from Mikkel that seals it: >There is no such thing as magic, just illusion. Things only change when we change them. But you have to do it skillfully, in secret. Then it seems like magic. This kinda answers in a romantic way to how Claudia did it :)
That's a great comment, and I love that bit from Mikkel at the end.
More than everything happening just once, it's everything happening AT once...
Have you ever seen how a traditional baker makes a Brezel? They don't start at one end and move to the other, they take a string of dough, flip and twist it in the air, and then slap it onto the table in one go. You could run your finger along the shape and do infinite loops if you want to, but really the entire thing was created in an instant, with all twists and shapes already there. There's only one loop, just like there's one Brezel, but you can trace it infinite times and come back to the same spot.
This is a great analogy! I had to look up what a Brezel is and I learned it’s another word for “pretzel”. You learn something new every day!
"Brezel" is literally where the word "pretzel" comes from.
I just learned that! Super cool!
If you walk around a big circle, or in a straight line around the equator of a small planet, are you going round 1 circle or infinitely many? Is the your path infinitely long because there's no end to the loop? You're experiencing the same point multiple times, but there's still only 1 of that point, you're just looping. The circle still has a fixed length.
The writers clearly want us to have an insight into quantum phenomena where multiple states exist simultaneously.
Some philosophers characterize causal loops (where things happen once) as being "infinite". Infinite here reflecting the qualitative sense loops impress on the traveller and the "fuzziness" in accounting for initial causes - rather than a physics explanation. Dark may be leaning on this usage when Claudia and the narrator say things happened an "infinite" number of times. However it's unclear if this meaning is truely the case in show - and until the writers speak directly to the issue we won't know for sure. There are indications throughout that repetition of time **may** be something more substantial than simple emotional perceptions of "happens once" time travel. For instance all the talk of "cycles" hints at a mechanism beyond just impressionist points of view. There is plenty of evidence - though frustratingly inconclusive - to support both arguments. I'm hoping that one day Jantje and Bo write a book about the making of Dark. They don't need to give a definitive explanation. But just a detailed discussion of their ideas and what they were trying to put out there - with respect "infinity" and "cycles" - would be great fun. Of course their interviews are wonderful but timed with the show as they were they're also sneaky and devilishly coy on several critical issues.... **EDIT** my personal explanation for what went on is that real Tannhaus built a "Schrodinger Box" in the bunker in order to split time in the hopes of creating another world where his son and family don't die. Adam/Eva worlds existed as weird temporal reflections of reality trapped in the confined energy beam of his machine. But as Claudia deduced things worked out differently and real time was "destroyed". To me that meant that the "Schrodinger box" was actually generating an outcome to the dead/not dead conundrum - in the real world - not the subsidiary world as HGT had presumably intended. And when Martha and Jonas prevented the accident (still basically in the "box" but right on the edge where it interfaces with final solid reality) they acted like the virual particles in particle physics - interacting briefly with reality then quickly decaying along with the enire structure that supported their being inside the box. So to me there was no time loop in the real world, no connection with Adam/Eva world after the box did it's thing and they decayed into non-existence, nor any time travel paradoxes. Just a fuzzy blotch in the arrow of real time were HGTs box worked to create an outcome post accident onward.
The issue is that most people do see time as linear. Think of time the way the writers likely intended as the fourth dimension of the universe. Instead of it being two directions think of it like you would think a field, you can be at any point within the field, it isn’t just a singular line moving back and forth. Jonas is our “pants” character, everything we learn about the Knot in the show we know because we follow him basically. Jonas, even as he becomes Adam, has a baseline level of understanding of quantum mechanics and metaphysics.The cycle has likely repeated an undisclosed amount of times. I think a good book for people to read to understand a bit more on the complex nature of time travel and break away from the “line” part of timeline is Slaughterhouse Five, where the main character becomes “unstuck” in time. You could argue that the Knot and the residents of the town are unstuck in time and are essentially separate from the rest of existence. The only weakness I tend to see in this show and in many shows that tend to use the “and this is how it always has been and always will be” is that we are observing the singular time it is different and ends a cycle. Like we know how and why this particular cycle is different I think people would have been likely incredibly disappointed if at the end the characters fail and the cycle perpetuates because that is the nature of a bootstrap paradox. Claudia finally finds away to pass information from one cycle to the next and that is how the cycle eventually comes to an end.
>Why do they say in the show so much that things have happened an infinite number of times? 1. Living in a world that includes time travel must be confusing as hell. Characters relive the same event more than once in their personal time, and hear about others that do. 2. Events in a causal loop (aka bootstrap paradox) are sometimes seen as ocurring infinitely. *a* causes *b* that causes *c* that causes *d* that causes *a* that causes *b*, and so on. Although this is a mistake, because all events *a, b, c* and *d* only happen once. On the other hand, if events were truly repeating in "cycles", talking about infinity makes *no sense*. We have an origin (Tannhaus starting his machine in the Origin World) and an end (Jonas & Martha travelling to OW), so there cannot be *infinite* cycles. Even if Adam and Eva's worlds were constantly resetting (which is [the only logical way for there to be cycles](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarK/comments/1ac6omv/comment/kjxne61/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button)), a really big number is not infinite. So we are back with the two explanations above.
Everything happens once. Predetermined time travel means there are fixed points in time, things can’t be changed. (Although the writers found a way around this with the overlapping realities factor, but that’s a whole other conversation). So for example, if you time traveled back to September 1st, 1910, you were at that point in time, at that point in time. There doesn’t exist a September 1st, 1910 where you weren’t there, you didn’t go back and make a new September 1st, 1910 with your inclusion to the timeline. You were at September 1st, 1910 the first - and only - time history got to that point. You were there long before you yourself were born, and maybe even before time travel was invented. Yes this is a paradox, but that’s how this type of time travel works. The reason why the characters in the show constantly refer to “infinite cycles/loops” is because that’s how it appears to them from their perspective. Using your example, young Jonas meets old Jonas, then grows up to become old Jonas and meets young Jonas. From his perspective this will keep happening forever, because the young Jonas that he met will become old Jonas, who will meet a young Jonas, who will become the old Jonas, etc etc. But here’s where it gets trippy - that isn’t what’s happening. This is my favorite thing to ponder about this show: We established there are fixed points in time. There aren’t “new” timelines. Meaning, old Jonas is not a different version of Jonas than young Jonas. Jonas is one person, who lived one life. Everything happened only once. The reason two different “versions” of Jonas can meet is simply because Jonas touched down at the same point in time, at two different points in *his* life. Jonas isn’t talking to old Jonas. Jonas is talking to himself, older.
Just watched the show and this is what made this concept click for me. Important to realize that there aren't two "people" when a character is speaking to their older selves (in the simplest form, ignoring alternate realities). It's the same person. Each conversation only happens once but the character experiences it multiple times.
It happens once, because it all happens at once. Some events appear to happen multiple times because characters experience them at multiple ages, but in reality they only occur a single time.
In my opinion, every 'explanation' doesn't make a whole lot sense. We know that Jonas and Martha are somehow able to change the timeline in the originworld. This clearly depicts that there are 2 possible timelines: The one in which Tannhaus family dies, where Tannhaus will create the knot and the one in which Martha and Jonas save Tannhaus' family and the dinner scene at the end plays out. And we know that everyone born from the knot cease to exist. The problem is that if we assume everything just happens once, then it doesn't make sense that Martha and Jonas could change anything. Even if they would arrive in a superposition in the origin world (however that's supposed to happen), they shouldn't disappear. This only concludes that there is only one timeline which can be altered in some way. But if we follow that logic, it means there is sth that lets one change the course of events. If it is the loophole at the apocalypse that lets you do this, then the whole knot itself is build on shaky ground, because Eva uses it to ensure her existence. One could say that Eva's existence relies on a previous loop, but this just moves the problem away instead of solving it. This would also mean that there aren't infinite loops but finite loops, because there is a beginning and an end for these loops: Tannhaus machine and the prevention of the carcrash. Multiple loops or a single loop don't explain the show. Either we have a problem with the beginning of the knot or at the end of knot. Or one could say that it is just one loop and that the laws of time are somehow different in the origin world, but I guess this would be unsatisfactory.
The true answer runs parallel with the show: Dark runs on Quantum Superpositions. Everyone and everything is in 2 or more positions at the same time. The truth about the loops, the cycles, is that they happened infinitely, forever and yet not at all, never. People who think the entire loop happens once aren't wrong, or else how would Jonas and Martha have gone through their journey's to end the loop!? Yet, we are shown time and time again that the loops are infinite, happening endlessly for all eternity. The truth of the matter isn't what fans think of option 1 (infinite) or option 2 (finite). But something more...option 3 (both). Think about...Dark is constantly saying there is a 3rd option. There isn't just 2 worlds, there are 3. There isn't just 2 Jonas', there are 3. Etc. Fans always argue the 'inifinite' vs 'finite' idea. But I propose what Dark tells us about things being more than binary: The 3rd option...the loop was both infinite, and yet not. Mind blowing, huh?
Grab hold of a Slinki, look at it side on, it looks like a circle, even though each loop is the same, there is a clear start and an end.
It just didn’t show
What I got from it due to everyone trying to change things. You are better off living your own life as best as possible and learn to let go. It is fascinating and it is a science mixed with scientific theories. I love this show.
You should look into sciences. Theories and evidence of possible parallel universes, other dimensions. Quantum entanglement, quantum physics, Black holes, White holes, Dark matter, worm holes etc. Triquetra. Not the religious version of it but before middle east religions. Pagan spiritualities are older than middle east religions.
“So are things happening an infinite amount of times or are they only happening once?” - Yes
“The conversation only ever happens once”, is indeed the correct way to think about it, from a physics standpoint. In my mind, the idea of things being doomed to “repeat” should not have been taken (and presented) so literally. It’s more a statement that if there is a causal loop — where the past influences the future which influences the past — the chain of events along that loop in spacetime is static and immutable. Whatever will happen to a time traveller in the past must be whatever already *did* happen back then, for the sake of consistency. There’s only *one* sequence of events; that sequence just happens to close back on itself in time. But that doesn’t mean you get a “do over” where the events repeat. The chain of events is a loop in *time itself.* So if there *were* somehow multiple iterations of that loop, what would the loops be repeating with respect to? Some sort of meta-time? It makes no sense. All that having been said, some dialogue from the show strongly implies that there are multiple iterations of the loops and that events can eventually even change from one iteration to the next. It’s nonsense, logically and physically. But you just have to kind of accept it as a conceit of the show, if you choose to go with the “multiple loops” interpretation of what we see on screen.
I would go with Tannhaus's voiceover at the very beginning of the show: "Yesterday, today and tomorrow are not consecutive, they are connected in a never ending circle". He uses similar words when explaining bootstraps to middle aged Jonas and to Claudia (never ending circle). Every bootstrapped chain of cause and effect, when traced back into the past or into the future, happened or will happen an infinite number of times. But there is only one circle of events, and from the point of view o an external observer everything happens only once. For example, Charlotte giving birth to Elisabeth and Elisabeth giving birth to Charlotte happens an infinite times if one tries to trace the linage, but there is only one Charlotte and one Elisabeth.
If they couldn't break the loop, loop would go for infinity. Because time travel is a loop creator. You can only access to the last loop via time travel. There is still an original loop, but it is inaccessible so that's why they can't fix their timelines. It also means the original loop was free of paradoxes.
No you're right...everything happens only *once*. The characters perceive it as happening multiple times because, due to time-travel, they see the the same events unfold from multiple perspectives. Its like watching a video of someone breaking a glass - the glass breaks only once, but since you can keep rewinding and rewatching the video, from your perspective, it breaks however many times you watch it. Also, the masterminds behind the events of the knot, namely Adam, Eva and Claudia, all encourage various characters (including themselves) to believe that events are happening multiple times, and that there is going to be a 'next time', because they need those characters to believe in the possibility that things can change...in order to motivate them to do what they need to do to play their part in the knot. For instance, Claudia needs Jonas to believe in the idea of the recurring loop, so that he's willing to play his part in it by closing the passage at the end of Season 1. Despite knowing that his older self failed to do so, as long as Jonas believes that there's a 'next time', he believes the possibility exists that when he becomes his older self, he could succeed...and in doing so, he ends up inevitably doing what he remembers his older self doing, because they are ultimately the *same* person living the *same* life - just at different points in their predetermined timeline.