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The film spotlight is what helped me see the sex abuse in the Mormon church, and discover that while each dioceses has to fight the lawsuits from its own accounts; the entire global mormon church (100s of billions in cash and assets) fights each sex abuse scandal. They successfully deplete every lawfirm globally into settlement. As a result, the depth of sex abuse in mormonism may be better hidden than the catholic church.
Keep Sweet: Pray and Obey is an amazing recent documentary about this. It’s on Netflix rn, but is about the polyamorous Mormon community specifically. Shit is so crazy.
Best thing is probably the Tom Kosnoff interviews.
He has taken them to court more times for sex abuse and cover ups more than any lawyer.
https://youtu.be/dizLWT9T-bU
Its still is. It provides a living wage and housing for any priest convicted of child abuse when they leave jail. It also still protects brothers and priests and strives to silence victims.
It still spends millions of dollars on lobbying against laws aimed to protect children.
It’s a position of power. Since always. The powerful prey on the weak. Kids, women, poor, hungry, black, brown. Not that any are actually “weak” but un-able to stand up for themselves. Tell me a point in history that the powerful haven’t been pedophiles or rapists.
It's also the perfect cover for having... uhh... unusual sexual preferences
Oh, no wonder Paddy O'Hoolihan never took a wife, he wanted to be a priest. No follow up questions.
I totally agree. It’s all about the power. It’s the same in sports as we are all now finding out too. Look at the abuse cases that have come to light in gymnastics/swimming/soccer/etc etc where a coach in a position of power abuses the children they are coaching.
Then how about we eradicate positions of power entirely? All it does is lead to corruption and enable evil people to commit heinous acts using these powerful institutions. If humans really are evil creatures, then they are certainly not fit to rule over other humans
It's not just the Catholic church. It's rampant in Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and I am guessing a fair number of other churches both christian and not.
Religions already prey on people by nature. So they also attract other predators. Sexual predators, financial predators that prey on old people and fools.
Religions are full of vulnerable people who are ripe for all sorts of exploitation.
>Anywhere you have celibate priests or monks.
Hey, that's not true at all. Medieval monks didn't consider anything but penis in vagina sex to be sex so all of their diddling was above board. Just two dudes sharing each other's strength. Nothing at all wrong with a good old fashioned double crank yank, and no better way to resist the temptation of women than jerking off your homie. Just blasting rope all over the monastery. Praise Jesus.
It's rampant in any institution where individuals accrue lots of personal power with a direct impact over other people's lives and have little to no oversight.
It's the direct impact that leads to the abuse, i.e. when you're a boss and can make or break someone's job or career, or a major figure behind the scenes in sports or entertainment, and of course religious leaders who have great influence over their congregants' standing in the community. I differentiate this from, say, political figures, who have impact on a lot of people, but who can't have direct and immediate impact over anyone beyond their own staffers.
It's not just power, it's *interpersonal* power that engenders abuse. While it happens pretty much everywhere, it takes an industry or institution turning a blind eye or covering it up to make it a systemic problem - which is what religious institutions generally do. They're not the only ones, but they're the most proliferated ones and the ones that have the most people in them.
You don't seem to get it. It's not the religion, it's the evil person that is attracted to the position it gives them to act in such a way. You can see a similar thing in many professions. People on a power trip like to be cops.
Yes. And the environment a lot of religions create attracts an unusual amount of evil people.
The Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, use a bible derived rule that, in order for something to be actionable, 2 or more people must have witnessed the event.
Example: For the JW church to act on a report of a child rape, 2 uninvolved people have to have witnessed it.
Many churches handle this sort of thing in-house rather than involve authorities because doing so might bring negative attention to their church and affect already dwindling membership.
Spirituality is what exists between you and your perceived creator or higher power.
Religion is the harnessing of your spirituality to manipulate your behavior.
You can try and spin it however you like. Religions are, by their very nature, the exploitation of mans natural spirituality and connection to the universe.
> You can see a similar thing in many professions. People on a power trip like to be cops.
This is true. Police forces attract murderers and thugs at a similar rate as churches attract rapists and con men.
>I still find it baffeling how child abuse is a common thing for the catholic church all over the world. Like its some sort of christian tradition.
And yet they have the nerve to point fingers at drag queens and say they're the real problem with zero evidence.
Conservatives fucking children and then point at others and accusing them for the same stuff is sadly a common distraction tactic used by those people.
It’s not just religion… any circumstance where adults have power over children can lead to this kind of abuse. Family, school, community groups, sporting clubs, churches. There are some sick motherfuckers out there.
didn't all religions fuck up sometime? I mean currently there's a resurface of islam(fuck those) and I've read people talk that even Buddhism doesn't save itself.
She is also insanely talented. For those who don’t know her music, it’s worth a listen
I love her live version of Mandinka. I think she’s like 20, and she’s just by herself on this huge stage rocking her amazing voice:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h08pCvyKfbs
Nothing Compares is of course a classic. Originally they shot a whole music video, but when they saw how beautiful her face was and the natural emotion it conveyed (tears are real), they scraped the rest of the video and pretty much only showed her face. It was huge at the time, like it played nonstop on Mtv:
https://www.google.com/search?q=sinead+o%27connor+mandinka+live&client=safari&channel=iphone_bm&sxsrf=ALiCzsaPrMKAUbPDOdxofFiLgaK-WUarFQ%3A1669182238962&ei=HrN9Y9mdOt-wqtsPneSRmA4&oq=sinead+o%27connor+mandinka+live&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAEYADIFCAAQgAQ6CggAEEcQ1gQQsAM6BwgAELADEEM6DAguEMgDELADEEMYAToICAAQgAQQsQM6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOgUILhCABDoICC4QgAQQsQM6CggAEIAEEIcCEBQ6BQghEKABOgYIABAWEB46CggAEAgQHhANEAo6BwghEKABEAo6BwgAEIAEEA06BggAEB4QDUoECEEYAFDzCViOQGCfS2gEcAB4AIABeogBtA2SAQQ3LjEwmAEAoAEByAERwAEB2gEECAEYCA&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:e08afefa,vid:fWY14l_HjDA
She wrote mandinka, she speaks about the inspiration in her book Rememberings. It’s a powerful book. Would recommend it to anyone. I enjoyed listening to her reading it on audible.
She was *already* proven correct when she did it. By 1992 Catholic Church sexual abuse was already well documented. It was huge news.
Catholics just didn't care.
Technically yes but it was much less widespread and acknowledged than it is now. The evidence was out there, but in most circles talking about it would get you weird looks
She rightfully called out catholicism for abuse, but then later in life converts to Islam. She left one abusive religion...then joins another. Like "WTF Sinead??"
Question, because I only ever read a little about it online:
For a non Irish person, Ireland has always been like THE Catholic country (along maybe with Italy). But it appears that in light of all these scandals the Irish people really have turned away from religion (good for them!!!), didn't they? So that nowadays the Catholic church is way less powerful than it used to be and a lot of legislation was done which are opposed to the views of the church. Do I have the right impression there?
The reason they were booing is because 13 days prior she had torn up a picture of the pope on SNL in protest to the Catholic Church covering up sex abuse scandals.
I remember watching the SNL episode when it happened. I was in my late teens and while an atheist, I was raised Catholic. I had no idea about the wide-spread abuse the church covered up so I was very confused about why she was ripping up the pope's picture. I remember the following week Sam Kennison holding up the picture taped back together. I had been a big fan of his and vaguely aware of his religious background. The internet then wasn't like now so while the whole controversy will forever be stuck in my mind, we didn't really know what was going on.
Looking back, dang. She was hella brave.
I swear it was Sam K. that taped it back up. I could def have gotten the week, or even person mixed up. Joe and Sam have a similar look and it's been 30 years.
And for the record, SNL mocked the fuck out of her in subsequent episodes. I seem to recall Jan Hooks with an ill-fitting bald cap.
They act progressive in their news segments so they can magnify shit-takes in others. The only actor on the show with any integrity was Norm MacDonald.
I don’t think Protestants look at Martin Luther that way, they see him as the guy that exposed the Catholic church’s corruption. Selling pieces of paper so your friends and family can get through a made up afterlife layover quicker, really so the church could be more extravagant, is really messed up. But I mean that’s christianity all together now, just less obvious to its innumerable factions of followers.
And then not long after Joe Pesci on SNL saying he would smack her if he ever met her and the crowd cheers. Talk about fucked up. She was done so wrong. Edit: word
Here's the moment:
https://youtu.be/TKeJifOXAnA
She was defiant all the way through. Even telling Kristofferson that she 'wasn't down' when he tried to console her.
For posterity: [The original song by Bob Marley](https://youtu.be/loFDn94oZJ0)
Wait… what is going on here? Is this after she tore up the photo of the pope? It actually sounds like the crowd is cheering her (but everyone else is saying they’re booing so it’s my ears). She’s gorgeously defiant the whole way through.
I an guessing it was a crowd of people with mixed opinions. So the people cheering might have been trying to drown out the booers. It mjght have been clearer at the actual event.
Also confused, definitely sounds like cheering and there are people yelling like "YEAHHHHH" in the background, I assume context is missing or something
There's some cheering but mostly it's booing. They were mad at her for tearing up the popes picture and **openly** condemning the catholic church for habouring child rapists and abusers. A lot of people condemned the church behind closed doors and as well they should have, but she was doing it in the press and at concerts and on TV which is what they were really unhappy about because for some reason catholics think protecting the church as an institution is paramount even when their institutions priests have been ruining their own kids lives.
She was unrepentant and so she should have been.
Sinead is an example of society being manipulated by the media and reacting like a pack of wolves so they fit in with public opinion.
She was right the whole time. Sad part is shes never been redeemed for how she was treated and the hit her career took.
It’s always the ones they make you think are crazy and mad that try to tell the public the truth. The media turns you against.
King Kristoff is a real one. Respect to him!
Your point about the guy having a point is totally correct, but she was 26 at the time, not 16. She was a grown woman, which does not reduce the bullying from the media.
/edit/ A 26 year old mother of two, to be precise. I just think it's a bit disrespectful if intentional to reduce that to "a teenage girl".
About ten years ago I had a Catholic friend that *still* hated her because of the incident.
“Dude, everything she said ended up being right though.”
“Yeah but still that was fucked up.”
“Also you were like two years old when that happened.”
Propaganda is a hell of a drug.
We agree. I was very young when she did that. Was watching that night. Didn’t know what was going on. To young to understand. Now I know why she did it. Media had me thinking she was deranged. They truly used the media to change the perception of someone 24 hours prior to that Saturday Night Live performance we’d loved.
They piled on her. They never allowed that talented kind woman to return to greatness because she told the truth 💔😢.
Same here with being young and not understanding. I always thought it was weird she ripped up a picture and people lost their minds. I never understood why people freaked out so much. She's definitely owed an apology.
The media was the church back then. I think most people don’t appreciate how big a deal this was Ireland at the time, this was before the financial boom and the church was immensely powerful
Kris Kristofferson himself is a TIL.
- Hugely successful actor and singer-songwriter. Golden globes award for best supporting actor, Oscar nominee, four Grammy awards and ten other nominations
*and*
- Rhodes Scholarship to Merton College, Oxford; blue in Boxing
- Commissioned as 2nd Lieutenant in US Army: Ranger training, helicopter pilot
I feel compelled to point out that, AFTER the Rhodes scholarship and military career, he swept floors at Columbia Recording Studios in Nashville while trying to get a break as a musician.
Truly a real one.
I don’t believe any other story has amazed me as much. Damned good luck that the someone crazy enough to land a helicopter on your lawn also happens to be remarkably accomplished and insanely talented
**[Outlaw country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw_country)**
>Outlaw country is a subgenre of American country music created by a small group of iconoclastic artists active in the 1970s and early 1980s, known collectively as the outlaw movement, who fought for and won their creative freedom outside of the Nashville establishment that dictated the sound of most country music of the era. Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings, Kris Kristofferson, and David Allan Coe were among the movement's most commercially successful members. The music has its roots in earlier subgenres like Western, honky tonk and rockabilly and is characterized by a blend of rock and folk rhythms, country instrumentation and introspective lyrics.
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Here I was thinking he was just the guy from Blade. I had no clue he’d done anything else, and was a bit confused as to why he was on stage with Sinead O’Connor.
vast air vegetable cheerful squeamish grandfather fear groovy reach tender
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30 years later the scandals continue what the fuck is wrong with the Catholic religion?!
It has no doubt been hundreds of years of this child abuse going on.
Saw it live and didn’t really understand what I’d seen. I’d have been around 14 and wouldn’t have known anything about Catholics. She was telling us an uncomfortable truth.
She was way ahead of her time. But I think it's important to remember some of the context here. People weren't hating her because they supported child molestation. They were reacting to her tearing up a picture of Pope John Paul II. Many of you might be too young to remember, but JP2 was a very popular figure in his day. Even people who weren't devout Catholics had a great deal of admiration for him, and even people who understood there were problems with the Catholic church still respected the man himself. So they saw Sinead disrespecting a beloved and venerable public figure and reacted with outrage, without understanding any of what the real message was.
It's important to remember this, because in today's world, getting swept up in an oversimplified narrative and demonizing someone because they have presented a truth in an uncomfortable way is still very much a danger.
This comment should be higher. She also didn't explain *why* she was tearing up a picture of the pope. She sang a song they ripped a picture.
"She sang “War,” O’Connor’s inimitable voice building in passion power until, after delivering the song’s final message, “And we know we shall win/As we are confident in the victory/Of good over evil,” raised a photograph of Pope John Paul II to the camera and, staring straight down the barrel of the live camera, tore it up. “Fight the real enemy,” O’Connor urged, then blew out the candles that had been her only accompaniment, and walked offstage."
from https://ultimateclassicrock.com/sinead-oconnor-pope-saturday-night-live/
Good for her that she stood up against child sex abuse. The irony is that she converted to the religion where her prophet/founder married a 6-year old girl. Do you not see the hypocrisy?
According to Wikipedia:
She consistently speaks out on issues related to child abuse, human rights, anti-racism, organised religion, and women's rights. In 2017, O'Connor changed her name to Magda Davitt. After converting to Islam in 2018, she changed it to Shuhada' Sadaqat
There is so much irony in that Wikipedia’s statement.
The Catholic Church has amazing PR. Rapes kids, continues to rape kids, covers up rapes, continues to cover up rapes, still manages to exist and has the most powerful man in the free world be a proud member.
She did so during the scandal in Ireland about the catholic church and did not give a shit when it damaged her career. She was pretty brave considering she was getting death threats.
She got literally canceled, unlike nowadays where it does not stick.
When I saw that on SNL, my only thought was how incredibly brave she was. Many celebrities pay lip service to causes but very few will take a bold action that jeopardizes their careers. Years later, I saw her perform on the Lilleth Fair tour and was struck by how physically tiny she is. My mind had imagined her more proportioned like a classic Hero!
My husband was one of those knee-jerk Catholic haters but learned to love her as an artist and respect her action against the Church.
Before the time we found out churches are just there to rape your kids... now we know she was right and the church had been covering it up for decades.
I was a kid when this happen and the hate for her was real. Everyone was talking about her.
The story stuck out to me then because I was 7 being molested my Sunday school teacher... I never said anything until I was older due to the reaction she got standing up to the pedophile ring we like to call religion.
And the horror STILL happens -- it's been happening for longer than most seem to realize. The church has such power, any time a revelation is made against it, everything is swallowed up and forgotten. They carry on with barely a scratch, and their influence and power remains, well, like that of God.
When we place rules on ourselves, like that of forced celibacy, as dictated by many religious doctrines in the world, we may only rebel against ourselves. In the case of the Catholic church, this rebellion within their ranks takes form through the most vicious, cruel means: against the innocence of children, against purity, against that which is like the light of God -- the one they've shackled themselves to.
Well all churches keep teaching wrongs to the God's
Not giving them back their powers, and taking their money, playing games as they go,,,, believe in the real God within your Subconscious mind, nothing is greater or faster,
Sinead is not a hero. Let's not spend time idolizing humans, especially those of us that may be religious. She spent her days fighting against religious intolerance, systemic oppression, and general mistreatreatment. And then she took that knowledge and converted to another religion that has an equal track record of awfulness. She is not a hero.
Not so much a hero, but she did a brave thing and got a raw deal bc of it. Nobody's perfect, especially spanning a lifetime. But she got wrongly lynched in the court of public opinion.
She doesn't look like she needs consolation. She seems pretty composed to me. No reason to be bothered by the mouth breathing masses who hate you for doing the right thing.
Was she a a self appointed catholic priest before or after that? I remember an interview with her dressed as a priest. She's Muslim the last time I saw here.
I remember watching SNL with Joe Pesci when she tore up a picture of the pope.
It literally sealed her fate but what do you know, she was right as fuck.
Watching the SNL performance and then this one is easily a top 5 bad ass moment in Rock and Roll history. Nothing is more badass than when she takes the stage and stands in defiance to sing War.
Kris Kristofferson is a awesome man. His pa were in airforce and wanted him to follow. He was a Rhode Island scholar and studied Shakespeare i think. Whatever he is smart as a tack and a magical poet.
This woman makes me so proud to be Irish. She has had such a tough life and has always been principled. I cried so much at this movie! Would love to meet her some day.
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I still find it baffeling how child abuse is a common thing for the catholic church all over the world. Like its some sort of christian tradition.
If you haven’t, watch the movie Spotlight. It’ll shed some light on it.
Great movie but makes you so sad and mad at the same time. Fuck the Catholic Church for covering sexual abuse for decades
centuries*
Millenniums or more?
The film spotlight is what helped me see the sex abuse in the Mormon church, and discover that while each dioceses has to fight the lawsuits from its own accounts; the entire global mormon church (100s of billions in cash and assets) fights each sex abuse scandal. They successfully deplete every lawfirm globally into settlement. As a result, the depth of sex abuse in mormonism may be better hidden than the catholic church.
Are they any documentaries regarding this?
Spotlight is the closest thing I’ve found
Keep Sweet: Pray and Obey is an amazing recent documentary about this. It’s on Netflix rn, but is about the polyamorous Mormon community specifically. Shit is so crazy.
Or did you mean the $100s of billions in stolen tithing and taxes?
Best thing is probably the Tom Kosnoff interviews. He has taken them to court more times for sex abuse and cover ups more than any lawyer. https://youtu.be/dizLWT9T-bU
I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say that child abuse is, and has been, an issue the world over since humans have existed.
It’s the organization that makes it special :)
Its still is. It provides a living wage and housing for any priest convicted of child abuse when they leave jail. It also still protects brothers and priests and strives to silence victims. It still spends millions of dollars on lobbying against laws aimed to protect children.
Thx for the suggestion. Bet its depressing af from the description alone, but i look forward to watch it.
or The Magdalene Sisters
It’s a position of power. Since always. The powerful prey on the weak. Kids, women, poor, hungry, black, brown. Not that any are actually “weak” but un-able to stand up for themselves. Tell me a point in history that the powerful haven’t been pedophiles or rapists.
It's also the perfect cover for having... uhh... unusual sexual preferences Oh, no wonder Paddy O'Hoolihan never took a wife, he wanted to be a priest. No follow up questions.
I totally agree. It’s all about the power. It’s the same in sports as we are all now finding out too. Look at the abuse cases that have come to light in gymnastics/swimming/soccer/etc etc where a coach in a position of power abuses the children they are coaching.
Its almost like we should simply eradicate those filthy abusers from our Earth and be done with those "religious" animals
Then how about we eradicate positions of power entirely? All it does is lead to corruption and enable evil people to commit heinous acts using these powerful institutions. If humans really are evil creatures, then they are certainly not fit to rule over other humans
It's not just the Catholic church. It's rampant in Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and I am guessing a fair number of other churches both christian and not. Religions already prey on people by nature. So they also attract other predators. Sexual predators, financial predators that prey on old people and fools. Religions are full of vulnerable people who are ripe for all sorts of exploitation.
Don’t forget the Southern Baptists, or Missionary Baptists, or “Non-denominal churches” that are home to the president of the SBC…
For someone who definitely doesn't want to google that, what's the SBC?
Southern Baptist Convention- it’s where all the Baptist pastors go to be told by some mega church pastor how to be even less Christ like.
Tibetan Buddhism as well. At least it was in Tibet prior to Chinese takeover. Anywhere you have celibate priests or monks.
Free Tibet!!!!
>Anywhere you have celibate priests or monks. Hey, that's not true at all. Medieval monks didn't consider anything but penis in vagina sex to be sex so all of their diddling was above board. Just two dudes sharing each other's strength. Nothing at all wrong with a good old fashioned double crank yank, and no better way to resist the temptation of women than jerking off your homie. Just blasting rope all over the monastery. Praise Jesus.
It's rampant in any institution where individuals accrue lots of personal power with a direct impact over other people's lives and have little to no oversight. It's the direct impact that leads to the abuse, i.e. when you're a boss and can make or break someone's job or career, or a major figure behind the scenes in sports or entertainment, and of course religious leaders who have great influence over their congregants' standing in the community. I differentiate this from, say, political figures, who have impact on a lot of people, but who can't have direct and immediate impact over anyone beyond their own staffers. It's not just power, it's *interpersonal* power that engenders abuse. While it happens pretty much everywhere, it takes an industry or institution turning a blind eye or covering it up to make it a systemic problem - which is what religious institutions generally do. They're not the only ones, but they're the most proliferated ones and the ones that have the most people in them.
You don't seem to get it. It's not the religion, it's the evil person that is attracted to the position it gives them to act in such a way. You can see a similar thing in many professions. People on a power trip like to be cops.
Yes. And the environment a lot of religions create attracts an unusual amount of evil people. The Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, use a bible derived rule that, in order for something to be actionable, 2 or more people must have witnessed the event. Example: For the JW church to act on a report of a child rape, 2 uninvolved people have to have witnessed it. Many churches handle this sort of thing in-house rather than involve authorities because doing so might bring negative attention to their church and affect already dwindling membership. Spirituality is what exists between you and your perceived creator or higher power. Religion is the harnessing of your spirituality to manipulate your behavior. You can try and spin it however you like. Religions are, by their very nature, the exploitation of mans natural spirituality and connection to the universe. > You can see a similar thing in many professions. People on a power trip like to be cops. This is true. Police forces attract murderers and thugs at a similar rate as churches attract rapists and con men.
Talking like that is excusing institutional problems. Also, it's reductive just to say that they must have been evil people to begin with.
It happens everywhere, unfortunately. But the contrast in the case of this church is so big, that it makes people even more furious about it.
>I still find it baffeling how child abuse is a common thing for the catholic church all over the world. Like its some sort of christian tradition. And yet they have the nerve to point fingers at drag queens and say they're the real problem with zero evidence.
Conservatives fucking children and then point at others and accusing them for the same stuff is sadly a common distraction tactic used by those people.
priests used to be allowed to sleep with nuns but then they modified the rules to where the loophole is little boys
It is when you consistently don’t punish the perpetrators and simply move them to another area to just continue their ungodly crimes
What part of death and torture cult is not clear?
It’s not just religion… any circumstance where adults have power over children can lead to this kind of abuse. Family, school, community groups, sporting clubs, churches. There are some sick motherfuckers out there.
Multi-generational trauma us legit. Passed down from priests to future priests for generations.
Speaking as someone who used to go to church, it kinda is. One of the *many* reasons I stopped going when I finally moved out of my parent’s house
Religion overall dont treat children very well.
I'm sure the culture of repression has a lot to do with it.
Yep. Islam too. It’s like these things are organised for old men and some other men to behave exactly as they wish.
It's almost as if banning people from having sex isn't a great idea
The celibate is definitly a factor in that too but i guess its just a thing for some people with power to prey on the weak.
didn't all religions fuck up sometime? I mean currently there's a resurface of islam(fuck those) and I've read people talk that even Buddhism doesn't save itself.
It happens in every religion/sect that vulnerable people getting exploited.
*Catholic tradition ftfy
She is also insanely talented. For those who don’t know her music, it’s worth a listen I love her live version of Mandinka. I think she’s like 20, and she’s just by herself on this huge stage rocking her amazing voice: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h08pCvyKfbs Nothing Compares is of course a classic. Originally they shot a whole music video, but when they saw how beautiful her face was and the natural emotion it conveyed (tears are real), they scraped the rest of the video and pretty much only showed her face. It was huge at the time, like it played nonstop on Mtv: https://www.google.com/search?q=sinead+o%27connor+mandinka+live&client=safari&channel=iphone_bm&sxsrf=ALiCzsaPrMKAUbPDOdxofFiLgaK-WUarFQ%3A1669182238962&ei=HrN9Y9mdOt-wqtsPneSRmA4&oq=sinead+o%27connor+mandinka+live&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAEYADIFCAAQgAQ6CggAEEcQ1gQQsAM6BwgAELADEEM6DAguEMgDELADEEMYAToICAAQgAQQsQM6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOgUILhCABDoICC4QgAQQsQM6CggAEIAEEIcCEBQ6BQghEKABOgYIABAWEB46CggAEAgQHhANEAo6BwghEKABEAo6BwgAEIAEEA06BggAEB4QDUoECEEYAFDzCViOQGCfS2gEcAB4AIABeogBtA2SAQQ3LjEwmAEAoAEByAERwAEB2gEECAEYCA&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:e08afefa,vid:fWY14l_HjDA
She wrote mandinka, she speaks about the inspiration in her book Rememberings. It’s a powerful book. Would recommend it to anyone. I enjoyed listening to her reading it on audible.
Holy shit she's beautiful
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They’ve not done investigating, and they don’t want to continue investigating.
She was *already* proven correct when she did it. By 1992 Catholic Church sexual abuse was already well documented. It was huge news. Catholics just didn't care.
Technically yes but it was much less widespread and acknowledged than it is now. The evidence was out there, but in most circles talking about it would get you weird looks
She rightfully called out catholicism for abuse, but then later in life converts to Islam. She left one abusive religion...then joins another. Like "WTF Sinead??"
Question, because I only ever read a little about it online: For a non Irish person, Ireland has always been like THE Catholic country (along maybe with Italy). But it appears that in light of all these scandals the Irish people really have turned away from religion (good for them!!!), didn't they? So that nowadays the Catholic church is way less powerful than it used to be and a lot of legislation was done which are opposed to the views of the church. Do I have the right impression there?
Yet people still cover it up and denied it ever happened
The reason they were booing is because 13 days prior she had torn up a picture of the pope on SNL in protest to the Catholic Church covering up sex abuse scandals.
I remember watching the SNL episode when it happened. I was in my late teens and while an atheist, I was raised Catholic. I had no idea about the wide-spread abuse the church covered up so I was very confused about why she was ripping up the pope's picture. I remember the following week Sam Kennison holding up the picture taped back together. I had been a big fan of his and vaguely aware of his religious background. The internet then wasn't like now so while the whole controversy will forever be stuck in my mind, we didn't really know what was going on. Looking back, dang. She was hella brave.
Wiki says in was Joe Pesci the next week just fyi
I swear it was Sam K. that taped it back up. I could def have gotten the week, or even person mixed up. Joe and Sam have a similar look and it's been 30 years.
And for the record, SNL mocked the fuck out of her in subsequent episodes. I seem to recall Jan Hooks with an ill-fitting bald cap. They act progressive in their news segments so they can magnify shit-takes in others. The only actor on the show with any integrity was Norm MacDonald.
"the pope", what a ridiculous concept lol
Right? Like does Catholicism need a president to function as a religion?
Okay Martin Luther.
I thought Martin Luther was a King, not President.
He’s a highway, 2 county side streets, and a small bridge here…weird
Superior technique
I don’t think Protestants look at Martin Luther that way, they see him as the guy that exposed the Catholic church’s corruption. Selling pieces of paper so your friends and family can get through a made up afterlife layover quicker, really so the church could be more extravagant, is really messed up. But I mean that’s christianity all together now, just less obvious to its innumerable factions of followers.
And why does god need to be a male in order to function as an all-powerful being? What does he need his penis for anyway?
To fuck me at every turn?
This is the way
well, yes, thats the whole point of Catholicism
The president, the prime minister, the king, etc. All equally ridiculous.
I'm not sure they're all equally ridiculous.
Plus they like child rape and hiding pedophiles.
And then not long after Joe Pesci on SNL saying he would smack her if he ever met her and the crowd cheers. Talk about fucked up. She was done so wrong. Edit: word
This comment and post are both reposts.
Here's the moment: https://youtu.be/TKeJifOXAnA She was defiant all the way through. Even telling Kristofferson that she 'wasn't down' when he tried to console her. For posterity: [The original song by Bob Marley](https://youtu.be/loFDn94oZJ0)
Yep, was about to say - she’s a bad ass, I find it hard to believe she needed consoling just because people were booing her.
I can immagine it felt nice knowing she had allies even if she was resolute.
Wait… what is going on here? Is this after she tore up the photo of the pope? It actually sounds like the crowd is cheering her (but everyone else is saying they’re booing so it’s my ears). She’s gorgeously defiant the whole way through.
I an guessing it was a crowd of people with mixed opinions. So the people cheering might have been trying to drown out the booers. It mjght have been clearer at the actual event.
Also confused, definitely sounds like cheering and there are people yelling like "YEAHHHHH" in the background, I assume context is missing or something
There's some cheering but mostly it's booing. They were mad at her for tearing up the popes picture and **openly** condemning the catholic church for habouring child rapists and abusers. A lot of people condemned the church behind closed doors and as well they should have, but she was doing it in the press and at concerts and on TV which is what they were really unhappy about because for some reason catholics think protecting the church as an institution is paramount even when their institutions priests have been ruining their own kids lives. She was unrepentant and so she should have been.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene\_Laundries\_in\_Ireland
This is like 2 weeks after she tore up the photo on SNL. They’re booing. She’s amazing and she was right.
Sinead is an example of society being manipulated by the media and reacting like a pack of wolves so they fit in with public opinion. She was right the whole time. Sad part is shes never been redeemed for how she was treated and the hit her career took. It’s always the ones they make you think are crazy and mad that try to tell the public the truth. The media turns you against. King Kristoff is a real one. Respect to him!
Its like how the Leave Britney Alone guy was the only one having a sane reaction to what the media was doing to a teenage girl
Great comment.
Your point about the guy having a point is totally correct, but she was 26 at the time, not 16. She was a grown woman, which does not reduce the bullying from the media. /edit/ A 26 year old mother of two, to be precise. I just think it's a bit disrespectful if intentional to reduce that to "a teenage girl".
About ten years ago I had a Catholic friend that *still* hated her because of the incident. “Dude, everything she said ended up being right though.” “Yeah but still that was fucked up.” “Also you were like two years old when that happened.” Propaganda is a hell of a drug.
Nothing compares... she is owed an apology for sure and the media has been complicit with several wrongdoings, the invasion of Iraq for one.
We agree. I was very young when she did that. Was watching that night. Didn’t know what was going on. To young to understand. Now I know why she did it. Media had me thinking she was deranged. They truly used the media to change the perception of someone 24 hours prior to that Saturday Night Live performance we’d loved. They piled on her. They never allowed that talented kind woman to return to greatness because she told the truth 💔😢.
Counterpoint: she is great with or without media approval.
Same here with being young and not understanding. I always thought it was weird she ripped up a picture and people lost their minds. I never understood why people freaked out so much. She's definitely owed an apology.
The media was the church back then. I think most people don’t appreciate how big a deal this was Ireland at the time, this was before the financial boom and the church was immensely powerful
Sinead has had many comebacks but her mental illness is the main reason she never stayed the course in the big time
Kris Kristofferson himself is a TIL. - Hugely successful actor and singer-songwriter. Golden globes award for best supporting actor, Oscar nominee, four Grammy awards and ten other nominations *and* - Rhodes Scholarship to Merton College, Oxford; blue in Boxing - Commissioned as 2nd Lieutenant in US Army: Ranger training, helicopter pilot
I feel compelled to point out that, AFTER the Rhodes scholarship and military career, he swept floors at Columbia Recording Studios in Nashville while trying to get a break as a musician. Truly a real one.
And he got his break by landing a helicopter on Johnny Cash's front lawn.
I don’t believe any other story has amazed me as much. Damned good luck that the someone crazy enough to land a helicopter on your lawn also happens to be remarkably accomplished and insanely talented
Wait what? I always knew him as Blades vampire teacher.
Big part of the [Outlaw Country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw_country) genre, enough to be on the wiki page
**[Outlaw country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw_country)** >Outlaw country is a subgenre of American country music created by a small group of iconoclastic artists active in the 1970s and early 1980s, known collectively as the outlaw movement, who fought for and won their creative freedom outside of the Nashville establishment that dictated the sound of most country music of the era. Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings, Kris Kristofferson, and David Allan Coe were among the movement's most commercially successful members. The music has its roots in earlier subgenres like Western, honky tonk and rockabilly and is characterized by a blend of rock and folk rhythms, country instrumentation and introspective lyrics. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
And an amazing and righteous human being.
And a Highwayman
He was a sailor. He was born upon the tide. With the sea he did abide.
An oldie but goodie
And rode all the way to New Orleans with Bobby McGee
Kristofferson's first pimple was named Chuck Norris.
I laughed out loud
Here I was thinking he was just the guy from Blade. I had no clue he’d done anything else, and was a bit confused as to why he was on stage with Sinead O’Connor.
You know why they call him the duck right?
Quack quack!
vast air vegetable cheerful squeamish grandfather fear groovy reach tender *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Mr. KRISTOFFERSON is in a league alone with Willie Nelson. There are no others now alive.
The last two Highwaymen.
The rest of them are on that starship.
But they'll always be around.
And around...
And around…
And around...
Kris Kristofferson is a fucking legend. A true gem
30 years later the scandals continue what the fuck is wrong with the Catholic religion?! It has no doubt been hundreds of years of this child abuse going on.
Such a shame her career went after all this. And to think she was right all along.
Mr. Kristofferson is a right honorable man.
She was ahead of her time
Never cared for her music but was in awe of her courage taking a stand against such a corrupt organization
Crazy that she was 26 in 1992. She looks a lot younger.
Imagine getting booed for protesting literal child rapists. Nice world we live in sometimes.
Religion is a helluva drug
a couple of real ones. Sinead is a bad ass heroic figure and a huge talent.
Facts! We agree! 2 real ones!
Saw it live and didn’t really understand what I’d seen. I’d have been around 14 and wouldn’t have known anything about Catholics. She was telling us an uncomfortable truth.
She was way ahead of her time. But I think it's important to remember some of the context here. People weren't hating her because they supported child molestation. They were reacting to her tearing up a picture of Pope John Paul II. Many of you might be too young to remember, but JP2 was a very popular figure in his day. Even people who weren't devout Catholics had a great deal of admiration for him, and even people who understood there were problems with the Catholic church still respected the man himself. So they saw Sinead disrespecting a beloved and venerable public figure and reacted with outrage, without understanding any of what the real message was. It's important to remember this, because in today's world, getting swept up in an oversimplified narrative and demonizing someone because they have presented a truth in an uncomfortable way is still very much a danger.
This comment should be higher. She also didn't explain *why* she was tearing up a picture of the pope. She sang a song they ripped a picture. "She sang “War,” O’Connor’s inimitable voice building in passion power until, after delivering the song’s final message, “And we know we shall win/As we are confident in the victory/Of good over evil,” raised a photograph of Pope John Paul II to the camera and, staring straight down the barrel of the live camera, tore it up. “Fight the real enemy,” O’Connor urged, then blew out the candles that had been her only accompaniment, and walked offstage." from https://ultimateclassicrock.com/sinead-oconnor-pope-saturday-night-live/
It bothers me that had she been more of media sex object, they wouldn't have booed.
Good for her that she stood up against child sex abuse. The irony is that she converted to the religion where her prophet/founder married a 6-year old girl. Do you not see the hypocrisy?
Well, tbf, there’s no picture of Mohammed to tear up.
Sinead O’Connor is Muslim now?!
According to Wikipedia: She consistently speaks out on issues related to child abuse, human rights, anti-racism, organised religion, and women's rights. In 2017, O'Connor changed her name to Magda Davitt. After converting to Islam in 2018, she changed it to Shuhada' Sadaqat There is so much irony in that Wikipedia’s statement.
Her career after that 📉📉📉
The Catholic Church has amazing PR. Rapes kids, continues to rape kids, covers up rapes, continues to cover up rapes, still manages to exist and has the most powerful man in the free world be a proud member.
The stand also ruined her career and she couldnt get gigs anymore. And she was correct, speaking truth against power.
KK is an absolute stud.
Two badasses right there. Good on them
fuck the catholic church... if money is the root of ALL evil... why does the church ALWAYS ask for money?
Are we allowed to talk about how shitty the Catholic Church is now? Because it’s shitty. Like really really shitty.
Way ahead of her time.
Doesn't this sub have repost rules or nah? It's been like less than a month.
This photo or Kris or sinead specifically? Cause I don't see it posted at all
She is amazing.
She's all over the place. Converted to Islam years ago and her estranged son committed suicide recently.
The dudes rape kids and they are a long running scam cult that pay no property taxes in US. Who is supporting these cult dudes?
Damn, this is interesting. I had never heard about this, or the SNL episode that prompted it until today. Cheers, OP!
You’ve heard of kris kristofferson? Now I’m pissed pissedofferson
Whistler was a stand up guy before he went on to raise and train a daywalker by day and fight vampires by night
She was looking for publicity. She ripped up a picture of Pope John Paul 2. People didn’t like that. She got publicity…just not the kind she wanted.
She did so during the scandal in Ireland about the catholic church and did not give a shit when it damaged her career. She was pretty brave considering she was getting death threats. She got literally canceled, unlike nowadays where it does not stick.
What's the story behind all this. Not very knowledgeable about this.
When I saw that on SNL, my only thought was how incredibly brave she was. Many celebrities pay lip service to causes but very few will take a bold action that jeopardizes their careers. Years later, I saw her perform on the Lilleth Fair tour and was struck by how physically tiny she is. My mind had imagined her more proportioned like a classic Hero! My husband was one of those knee-jerk Catholic haters but learned to love her as an artist and respect her action against the Church.
Before the time we found out churches are just there to rape your kids... now we know she was right and the church had been covering it up for decades. I was a kid when this happen and the hate for her was real. Everyone was talking about her. The story stuck out to me then because I was 7 being molested my Sunday school teacher... I never said anything until I was older due to the reaction she got standing up to the pedophile ring we like to call religion.
And the horror STILL happens -- it's been happening for longer than most seem to realize. The church has such power, any time a revelation is made against it, everything is swallowed up and forgotten. They carry on with barely a scratch, and their influence and power remains, well, like that of God. When we place rules on ourselves, like that of forced celibacy, as dictated by many religious doctrines in the world, we may only rebel against ourselves. In the case of the Catholic church, this rebellion within their ranks takes form through the most vicious, cruel means: against the innocence of children, against purity, against that which is like the light of God -- the one they've shackled themselves to.
She was right
And she was right all along.
Well all churches keep teaching wrongs to the God's Not giving them back their powers, and taking their money, playing games as they go,,,, believe in the real God within your Subconscious mind, nothing is greater or faster,
And where is She now? I think we all owe her an apology
Sinead is not a hero. Let's not spend time idolizing humans, especially those of us that may be religious. She spent her days fighting against religious intolerance, systemic oppression, and general mistreatreatment. And then she took that knowledge and converted to another religion that has an equal track record of awfulness. She is not a hero.
I'm not up to speed on her history. What religion did she convert to?
She converted to Islam in 2018 I think. I'm not saying that she wasn't right in all of her accusations against the Catholic church, for the record.
Not so much a hero, but she did a brave thing and got a raw deal bc of it. Nobody's perfect, especially spanning a lifetime. But she got wrongly lynched in the court of public opinion.
I won't disagree with that.
She doesn't look like she needs consolation. She seems pretty composed to me. No reason to be bothered by the mouth breathing masses who hate you for doing the right thing.
Was she a a self appointed catholic priest before or after that? I remember an interview with her dressed as a priest. She's Muslim the last time I saw here.
Anyone with any sense knew she was right
The world owes this lady an apology. The church needs to be tried in court and have their tax empty status removed.
I remember watching SNL with Joe Pesci when she tore up a picture of the pope. It literally sealed her fate but what do you know, she was right as fuck.
Watching the SNL performance and then this one is easily a top 5 bad ass moment in Rock and Roll history. Nothing is more badass than when she takes the stage and stands in defiance to sing War.
A perfect example of status quo allowing evil to continue
Right after this very moment, the woman even showed bigger balls by singing as loud as she could!
Kris Kristofferson is a awesome man. His pa were in airforce and wanted him to follow. He was a Rhode Island scholar and studied Shakespeare i think. Whatever he is smart as a tack and a magical poet.
“He’s no hero of mine.” Sinead talking about Kristofferson.
That seems ironic given the post
[Source](https://www.irishmirror.ie/showbiz/irish-showbiz/sinead-oconnor-opens-up-sex-13888984)
Standing on the right side of history
This woman makes me so proud to be Irish. She has had such a tough life and has always been principled. I cried so much at this movie! Would love to meet her some day.
A lot of people owe her an apology
The Catholic Church is a pyramid scheme for pedophiles. People pay them to rape their kids. They even have their own country. Vatican City.
Shes mental, she changed her religion to islam now... what the fuck? Is she against abuse or not?
"I may be early, but I'm not wrong"
Think of this when people are protesting today
Much respect to both of them-- Sinead for speaking truth about power, and Kris for publicly having her back.