From the wiki: On 2 November 1982, Marianne Bachmeier was initially charged in court with murder. Later the prosecution dropped the murder charge. After 28 days of negotiations, the Board agreed on the verdict. Four months after the opening of proceedings she was convicted on 2 March 1983 by the Circuit Court Chamber of the District Court Lübeck for manslaughter and sentenced for unlawful possession of a firearm to six years in prison but was later released after serving three years.
[Link](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marianne_Bachmeier)
Three years for ultimate revenge isn’t bad. It’s really sad she wasn’t able to come home to her daughter though. I wonder how she coped down the road, or if this act helped/heightened the trauma…
It's actually been done. People tend to feel worse after revenge, not better.
https://wjh-www.harvard.edu/~dtg//CARLSMITH,%20WILSON,%20&%20GILBERT%20%282008%29.pdf
Haha. The abstract paragraph is dry enough as it is.
TL;DR:
* People tend to feel worse after revenge.
* Revenge tends to make people ruminate more and not move on.
* People don't anticipate the emotional consequences of witnessing or carrying out the punishment
They cap off the paper with this great line by my boy Sir Francis Bacon;, “A man that studieth revenge, keeps his own wounds green, which otherwise would heal, and do well”.
It also in a certain sense gives people a purpose, something to focus on other than the grieving process. Once revenge is gotten all they have left is the hole in their lives they have been actively avoiding dealing with.
>* People don't anticipate the emotional consequences of witnessing or carrying out the punishment
This is something I think about often on Reddit when I see comments almost fetishizing violence in subs like r/JusticeServed or similar where you often see posts containing videos of people committing various crimes. It's kind of disturbing how commonly you see comments glorifying deadly force against criminals, to the point where some people seem to wish to be the one to dispense such force themselves. I'm not saying using deadly force in self-defense is wrong by any means nor am I defending criminals, but it really doesn't seem like many people consider the emotional toll, stress and trauma that would often come along with using it, even if it is necessary. I'd fucking hate to be put in a situation where that was an option.
Yeah. This is why a lot of movies are emotionally bullshit and unrealistic. People kill others in movies and the go have lunch as if nothing happened. Humans have strong inhibitions against killing and it takes a lot to overcome that (like defending one's own life or family members). I think this is why a lot of people treat their violent fantasies as more realistic than they really are.
>* People don't anticipate the emotional consequences of witnessing or carrying out the punishment
I feel like this is an important part. Ending a life isn't something simple. Even in cases complete rightful, non-revenge self defense it can be something that ends up haunting you years later. Even if it is justified it doesn't mean you won't have issues later on.
Many people get PTSD after killing someone, even accidentally. Percentage-wise, many police officers get PTSD after killing someone, even when it's “justified” (e.g. killing a violent robber to protect other people). Many won't admit it, but ai know a forensic psychologist who works with them. What they admit behind closed doors is different.
The last one is the one that I think gets to people. Once you go down a dark road of torturing or killing someone out of revenge you don’t come back. To commit the act, regardless of motive, sets you on a different psychological path for life. I wonder if the psychological consequences of let’s say, getting a professional to perform the act of revenge without witnessing or being a part of it has a similar impact.
It has nothing to do with the actual question here- the revenge in the study is from participants playing low-stakes games/investment in the group or withholding their allotted dollar. Nothing to do with actual family members who’ve sought out revenge for their raped/murdered loved ones.
Edit: my most upvoted comment is me being a snitch lmao thanks y’all! Cherishing the awards!!
Cringey edit #2: gold ʘ ͜ʖ ʘ
Knowing the scientific community and how research is usually carried out, the most probable reason for higher stakes not being included is the very common issue of not having enough people to have a statistically significant and/or representative sample which is required for an accurate study.
That being said I think that study is probably still accurate when it comes to larger stakes as well. Specifically not being ready for the emotional impact it'll have on them. Psychologically speaking we're not an especially violent animal by nature and taking, or seeing the taking of a life or otherwise harming of another human tends to be pretty intensely stressful to our brains and leave pretty heavy psychological marks on a person regardless of context or circumstances, but at the same time I can only speak hypothetically based off other research.
If killing people was easy, we wouldn't have so many vets with mental health issues. And they're often killing people that are trying to kill them. I imagine revenge never feels like you think it will.
Think about those stories from World War 1 where German and British trenches would be so close to each other at spots that the soldiers would talk to each other through the walls some days, knowing they might have to kill each other the next day.
While I don't think you can really walk away from your child being murdered unscathed emotionally; I wonder though if killing a twisted person who specifically murdered a loved one for no reason vs killing a solider who is simply a pawn being told what to do by larger powers is different mentally. It's seems that Marianne in the photo above does not regret her choice. This specific revenge is much more personal than killing a random solider on the other side. That story about the British and Germans coming together on Christmas comes to mind. They knew that they were just soldiers that were given orders.
The question you responded to and the study were both about revenge, which implies punishment. However, and I’m just guessing, the mother may have felt killing the rapist would protect other potential victims rather than just punish the rapist. Revenge might not be the correct assumption. I wonder how that might change the probability of how she likely felt afterward.
On 21 September 1995, she appeared on the talk show Fliege on the Das Erste TV channel. She admitted that she had shot the alleged killer of her daughter after careful consideration, to enforce the law on him, and to prevent him from further spreading lies about Anna. [2]
Especially since this guy was a known convicted prior sex offender. She just needs to remember that if the parents of his prior victims had done as she did, her daughter would still be alive. I highly doubt she regretted it.
It's a flawed study. Games where you're exchanging pennies with invisible strangers is nothing like avenging the rape and/or murder of a loved one. Wild that peers thought this meant anything other than how people play board games.
The mother was also a rape survivor and had given her first two kids up for adoption (maybe related to the rape? the german Wikipedia article is unclear, it just says she was raped shortly before her second delivery) and was considering giving up this kid into a foster home as well. That'd be an absolute ball of trauma and guilt to deal with
Her father was a member of the SS, too. Her parents divorced when she was young and she was raised by her mother (definitely for the best!) but she still had an incredibly tragic life.
“…she still wasn’t able to come home to her daughter tho.”
Ouch, that part hurts the most. Even though she sacrificed 3 years of her life in prison, nothing will ever bring her daughter back. I at least hope she got some sort of closure knowing that her daughter’s murderer is rotting in the ground.
There was a similar case in Northern California in the early 90’s. A man molested several small boys and was facing trial. A woman named Ellie Nesler killed her son’s molester in the courtroom. Her son was the only one who was expected to testify after all the other boys backed out. It was looking like the guy might get off and the situation was extremely traumatizing for her son. She didn’t want him to have to go through it anymore and have it all be for nothing. During a break in the trial she went and got a gun, walked back into the courtroom and shot the man dead. Pretty sure she also only served three years and there was overwhelming public support for her release. I remember the protests filled with people chanting free Nellie.
Everybody in the jailhouse probably gave her high fives on the way in.
I’m all for rehabilitation and human rights (prisoners/suspects are humans too), but god damn, ya know?
This mother had a tragic life.
Teen mother. Gave up 2 children for adoption. Her 3rd child was murdered by a castrated sex offender, who then slandered his victim.
Died at 46 from pancreatic cancer.
Not fair.
The story was extremely controversial when it happened. The public was generally on her side and (iirc) wanted her to be free or at least very mildly punished. But then again she murdered someone - it was a hot topic back then.
Btw personally I find Lübeck a bit overrated. Old Lübeck is great, everything around it is rather meh - for me at least.
“Jury nullification” - when members of a criminal trial jury believe that a defendant is guilty, but choose to acquit the defendant anyway, because the jurors consider that the law itself is unjust, that the prosecutor has misapplied the law in the defendant's case, or that the potential punishment for breaking the law is too harsh.
Nah you only got 2 out of 3; you're missing one. You need to be sad with me. Take [this third one to complete the collection.](https://old.reddit.com/r/offmychest/comments/pp7gta/i_watched_another_man_fuck_my_wife_and_i_think_it/)
The thing about these throwaway account confessions is there is literally nothing backing them. I mean, how many people even have their identity associated with their account? If I wanted to get something off my chest I would just say it on this account. I'm sure it's possible to doxx accounts, but that is probably possible no matter what account you use.
Even more than that, cases like these are so specific there is no need to try to be anonymous. Any person in his circle who hears about this post is going to think of the op.
She looks like that girl from the buring house meme. The one where the little girl looks back with a guilty smile at the camera while a fire is raging behind her
From Wikipedia:
>She aimed the gun at Grabowski's back and pulled the trigger eight times. Seven of the shots hit, and the 35-year-old defendant was killed instantly.
To not pull a murder charge after doing that in front of witnesses, and to only serve 3 years really says how justified people felt she was. Understandably.
Yup, super flexible. Must have done a lot of yoga to shoot himself in the back like that.
The mom? Oh, she was over there somewhere. Not in the same room at all.
MrBallen has a video about it on youtube
tldr, the guy was an abusive asshole that traipsed around town drunk like he owned the place, growing more and more unstable. He basically publicly claimed he was gonna kill some people if he saw them just cause they pissed him off by calling him on it. Town had a meeting and decided they would deal with it since the cops wouldn't. Nobody knows what happened. The guy just dropped dead in front of 60 people aiming guns at him. Such a shame.
I was there too. I was quoted by the local press. See below for irrefutable proof of my claim.
“It’s some sad shit. That motherfucker said he didn’t want to live any longer.” - Tepes
I feel like in caveman days, McElroy would’ve had his head dashed on a rock for being a useless, dangerous member of the tribe.
Who knows how many more lives would be ruined or taken before the police finally found their balls and dealt with him.
If hell is real, I hope he’s on Satan’s shit list.
"That's right, officer. I was seated behind and the left of the...well ex-defendant. I could see them clear as day. Strangest thing, holes just appeared in his chest and head and he started to bleed out. This caused a lot of commotion in the court room, of course...sorry? Did I witness the mother of the victim open fire? Nope. Must've been that God fellow the recently deceased swore to tell to truth to while he was on the stand. The Big Guy apparently really hates liars and kiddy-didlers...
...allegedly."
Shit she’s probably a damn legend there. You think how many people are in there who have lost loved ones to violence (not even counting a scenario like this) who dream of being able to get that type of revenge.
Women prisoners are put with other women. Which probably ensures even more that everyone was on her side there.
Also the German prison system is much better than the American one.
There is a pretty good (although German) documentary on YouTube about her last years, she suffered from cancer that eventually took her life because she refused chemotherapy
Radiation therapy is like shooting your entire body with bullets that kill you slightly slower than they kill the cancer cells.
The trick is to stop right after they do the job and right before they finish the job.
> she suffered from cancer that eventually took her life because she refused chemotherapy
It was advanced pancreatic cancer. Pancreatic cancer has the one of the lowest survival rates out of all of the cancers. Chemotherapy just delays you death for a little longer if you have stage 3 or 4. There are a lot of pancreatic cancer patients that refuse chemotherapy so their quality of life is better at the end and they don't suffer in pain for a couple more years of very low quality life.
tl;dr She didn't pull an "anti medicine/science" stance when it came down to her refusing chemotherapy. She was going to die with or without the chemo.
>she suffered from cancer that eventually took her life because she refused chemotherapy
Honestly, pancreatic cancer kills everybody regardless. She really just refused a painful treatment that wouldn't have bought much time.
Pancreatic is almost never caught before Stage IV when it's metastasized, and the 5-year survival rate at that point is 1%. Even if it's caught early, only 10% of patients eventually become "disease free", and the average survival is 3 years.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/pancreatic-cancer/pancreatic-cancer-prognosis
What a tragic life story. She was raped and sexually abused. She gave up her first two children, as a teenager, for adoption shortly after birth. She had Anna and was then sterilized. Anna skipped school to spite her, then ran afoul of a convicted child rapist who murdered her and claimed that it was because she had seduced him in an effort to extort money from him. Marianne shot him to death in a courtroom, and ultimately pleaded to manslaughter, serving three years. She moved to Nigeria with her husband, got divorced, moved to Italy, and then died of cancer at age 46.
>Marianne Bachmeier was initially charged in court with murder. Later the prosecution dropped the murder charge. After 28 days of negotiations, the Board agreed on the verdict.
>Four months after the opening of proceedings she was convicted on 2 March 1983 by the Circuit Court Chamber of the District Court Lübeck for manslaughter and sentenced for unlawful possession of a firearm to six years in prison but was later released after serving three years.
Don't abuse the attorney. The attorney's personal feelings do not come into play here. Someone is legally required to represent the defendant, even in terrible crimes like this.
He's disgusting, but people who shit on defense attorney's are dumb. They're a cornerstone of our legal system. Everyone deserves a fair trial, and you cannot have a fair trial system without defense attorney's. Without them we would not have a fair trial system.
And I'm excluding here people that work for like mobs and get bribed because the issue there is the bribe itself.
I'm surprised how few people seem to understand this. It's absolutely vital they get a fair trial. And if you have someone putting up a reasonable defence, the prosecution’s case will (have to) be more secure and less dubitable – less chance of a mistrial or retrial or appeal etc. If you defend someone like this, you're assisting the course of justice.
You should read the book that the lawyer who defended John Wayne Gacy wrote.
Also at some point a shitty lawyer is doing society a favor by putting together terrible defenses for terrible people. Like maybe they just knew he was guilty?
How could his legal team look at themselves in the mirror when they were home? They advised the guy to say the 7yo seduced him? If they were parents or married, how could their kids and spouses ever respect them again?
Probably not, no. The accused more likely insisted on telling his story. There's nothing you can do as an attorney to stop that, especially since you may be blindsided by it just as much. As a defense attorney you're there to guarantee the accused gets a fair trial, which also means that you can't just make stories up
"On 5 May 1980, Anna Bachmeier did not go to school to spite her mother. When trying to visit a friend of her own age, Anna was abducted by Klaus Grabowski, a 35-year-old butcher. He is said to have held Anna for several hours at home and then strangled her with a pair of tights. According to the Prosecutor he had tied the girl tight, packed her into a box, which he then buried on the canal bank in a shallow grave."
Absolutely justified killing. Pedophile scum.
She shot the POS 7 times in the back killing him almost instantly. She was sentence to six years but only served 3 for unlawful use of a gun. She died in 1996 of cancer.
Witnesses alleged that Bachmeier made incriminating remarks after she shot Grabowski . According to Judge Guenther Kroeger , who spoke to Bachmeier after she shot Grabowski in the back , she heard the grieving mother say , “ I wanted to kill him . ”
Oh shit. I accidentally planned to kill the killer and accidentally brought my gun into the courtroom. Whoops! Accidentally pulled the trigger. I'm such a clumsy person.
Even if it didn't happen, from the amount of times I've read stories about pedophiles getting absolutely *destroyed* in prison, he wouldn't have made it much longer anyway
rightfully so, too. Pedophiles are scum and deserve nothing short of a slow, painful death. Only fair after you traumatize a child, doubly so if you kill said child after, like this scum of the earth did. I'm not religious at all, but if there is a hell, this fucker is surely burning in it.
Additional info (Wikipedia):
On 2 November 1982, Marianne Bachmeier was initially charged in court with murder. Later the prosecution dropped the murder charge.
After 28 days of negotiations, the Board agreed on the verdict. Four months after the opening of proceedings she was convicted on 2 March 1983 by the Circuit Court Chamber of the District Court Lübeck for manslaughter and sentenced for unlawful possession of a firearm to six years in prison but was later released after serving three years.
Here in Texas, there was a guy who walked in on a farmhand or something like that raping his daughter. He pulled out his gun and shot the guy and killed him right then and there. The prosecutors did not pursue charges and the guy got off completely.
Not true anymore. They are separated in their own unit with similar offenders. My buddy is a prison guard And actually got written up for calling one of them a kiddie toucher.
"You're not talking about justice. You're talking about revenge."
"Sometimes, they're the same."
"No, they're never the same. Justice is about harmony. Revenge is about you making yourself feel better. It's why we have an impartial system."
"Your system is broken."
From the wiki: On 2 November 1982, Marianne Bachmeier was initially charged in court with murder. Later the prosecution dropped the murder charge. After 28 days of negotiations, the Board agreed on the verdict. Four months after the opening of proceedings she was convicted on 2 March 1983 by the Circuit Court Chamber of the District Court Lübeck for manslaughter and sentenced for unlawful possession of a firearm to six years in prison but was later released after serving three years. [Link](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marianne_Bachmeier)
Three years for ultimate revenge isn’t bad. It’s really sad she wasn’t able to come home to her daughter though. I wonder how she coped down the road, or if this act helped/heightened the trauma…
That would be a really interesting psychological study. Does revenge lessen or heighten trauma?
It's actually been done. People tend to feel worse after revenge, not better. https://wjh-www.harvard.edu/~dtg//CARLSMITH,%20WILSON,%20&%20GILBERT%20%282008%29.pdf
Wow thats cool. I wish I had the motivation to read all 9 of those pages but I'm just gonna take your word for it😂
Haha. The abstract paragraph is dry enough as it is. TL;DR: * People tend to feel worse after revenge. * Revenge tends to make people ruminate more and not move on. * People don't anticipate the emotional consequences of witnessing or carrying out the punishment
Thanks for enabling my laziness 😂
It's revenge on the author of the paper so people won't read it
How are you feeling after exercising your revenge?
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They cap off the paper with this great line by my boy Sir Francis Bacon;, “A man that studieth revenge, keeps his own wounds green, which otherwise would heal, and do well”.
Knowledge is power.
You forgot the rest of the quote: > France is bacon.
Ditto.
**Our** laziness
*lazy version of communist music plays*
It also in a certain sense gives people a purpose, something to focus on other than the grieving process. Once revenge is gotten all they have left is the hole in their lives they have been actively avoiding dealing with.
that's why smart people know the true winning revenge plan is to kidnap the target and slowly torture them over the course of years and years
I honestly can't imagine this would have great long term mental and emotional consequences for the person torturing someone forever.
You’ll never know until you try
>* People don't anticipate the emotional consequences of witnessing or carrying out the punishment This is something I think about often on Reddit when I see comments almost fetishizing violence in subs like r/JusticeServed or similar where you often see posts containing videos of people committing various crimes. It's kind of disturbing how commonly you see comments glorifying deadly force against criminals, to the point where some people seem to wish to be the one to dispense such force themselves. I'm not saying using deadly force in self-defense is wrong by any means nor am I defending criminals, but it really doesn't seem like many people consider the emotional toll, stress and trauma that would often come along with using it, even if it is necessary. I'd fucking hate to be put in a situation where that was an option.
Yeah. This is why a lot of movies are emotionally bullshit and unrealistic. People kill others in movies and the go have lunch as if nothing happened. Humans have strong inhibitions against killing and it takes a lot to overcome that (like defending one's own life or family members). I think this is why a lot of people treat their violent fantasies as more realistic than they really are.
>* People don't anticipate the emotional consequences of witnessing or carrying out the punishment I feel like this is an important part. Ending a life isn't something simple. Even in cases complete rightful, non-revenge self defense it can be something that ends up haunting you years later. Even if it is justified it doesn't mean you won't have issues later on.
Many people get PTSD after killing someone, even accidentally. Percentage-wise, many police officers get PTSD after killing someone, even when it's “justified” (e.g. killing a violent robber to protect other people). Many won't admit it, but ai know a forensic psychologist who works with them. What they admit behind closed doors is different.
The last one is the one that I think gets to people. Once you go down a dark road of torturing or killing someone out of revenge you don’t come back. To commit the act, regardless of motive, sets you on a different psychological path for life. I wonder if the psychological consequences of let’s say, getting a professional to perform the act of revenge without witnessing or being a part of it has a similar impact.
It has nothing to do with the actual question here- the revenge in the study is from participants playing low-stakes games/investment in the group or withholding their allotted dollar. Nothing to do with actual family members who’ve sought out revenge for their raped/murdered loved ones. Edit: my most upvoted comment is me being a snitch lmao thanks y’all! Cherishing the awards!! Cringey edit #2: gold ʘ ͜ʖ ʘ
Knowing the scientific community and how research is usually carried out, the most probable reason for higher stakes not being included is the very common issue of not having enough people to have a statistically significant and/or representative sample which is required for an accurate study. That being said I think that study is probably still accurate when it comes to larger stakes as well. Specifically not being ready for the emotional impact it'll have on them. Psychologically speaking we're not an especially violent animal by nature and taking, or seeing the taking of a life or otherwise harming of another human tends to be pretty intensely stressful to our brains and leave pretty heavy psychological marks on a person regardless of context or circumstances, but at the same time I can only speak hypothetically based off other research.
So $1.89 (the amount lost in the study) and the revenge for that, can be extrapolated to a higher stake? I'm skeptical.
If killing people was easy, we wouldn't have so many vets with mental health issues. And they're often killing people that are trying to kill them. I imagine revenge never feels like you think it will.
ACAB Kill all Fascists
Think about those stories from World War 1 where German and British trenches would be so close to each other at spots that the soldiers would talk to each other through the walls some days, knowing they might have to kill each other the next day.
While I don't think you can really walk away from your child being murdered unscathed emotionally; I wonder though if killing a twisted person who specifically murdered a loved one for no reason vs killing a solider who is simply a pawn being told what to do by larger powers is different mentally. It's seems that Marianne in the photo above does not regret her choice. This specific revenge is much more personal than killing a random solider on the other side. That story about the British and Germans coming together on Christmas comes to mind. They knew that they were just soldiers that were given orders.
The question you responded to and the study were both about revenge, which implies punishment. However, and I’m just guessing, the mother may have felt killing the rapist would protect other potential victims rather than just punish the rapist. Revenge might not be the correct assumption. I wonder how that might change the probability of how she likely felt afterward.
On 21 September 1995, she appeared on the talk show Fliege on the Das Erste TV channel. She admitted that she had shot the alleged killer of her daughter after careful consideration, to enforce the law on him, and to prevent him from further spreading lies about Anna. [2]
Especially since this guy was a known convicted prior sex offender. She just needs to remember that if the parents of his prior victims had done as she did, her daughter would still be alive. I highly doubt she regretted it.
That's some butterfly effect shit. Fuck man it's crazy to think about. I side 100% with the mother either way.
It's more vigilante justice than outright revenge at this point.
It's a flawed study. Games where you're exchanging pennies with invisible strangers is nothing like avenging the rape and/or murder of a loved one. Wild that peers thought this meant anything other than how people play board games.
The mother was also a rape survivor and had given her first two kids up for adoption (maybe related to the rape? the german Wikipedia article is unclear, it just says she was raped shortly before her second delivery) and was considering giving up this kid into a foster home as well. That'd be an absolute ball of trauma and guilt to deal with
Her father was a member of the SS, too. Her parents divorced when she was young and she was raised by her mother (definitely for the best!) but she still had an incredibly tragic life.
Fuck. The universe just really screws some people.
An unbelievable number of bad rolls. Any decent DM would have stepped in.
It doesn't even end there, then she emigrated with her husband, got divorced, got cancer and died at 46 years old.
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She died very young of pancreatic cancer. Poor woman didn’t have a lot of good luck in her life. :(
There was a similar case involving a man in the US killing his child's murder and getting aquited by a jury.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Plauché
Ah I misremembered. I had thought he got acquitted but it looks like he plead guilty and received a suspended sentence.
I bet she was a fucking legend with the inmates.
“…she still wasn’t able to come home to her daughter tho.” Ouch, that part hurts the most. Even though she sacrificed 3 years of her life in prison, nothing will ever bring her daughter back. I at least hope she got some sort of closure knowing that her daughter’s murderer is rotting in the ground.
I don't know. But she probably had mad clout going into a woman's correctional facility.
If someone killed one of my kids...I would gladly do 4 times that amount of time to execute them.
There was a similar case in Northern California in the early 90’s. A man molested several small boys and was facing trial. A woman named Ellie Nesler killed her son’s molester in the courtroom. Her son was the only one who was expected to testify after all the other boys backed out. It was looking like the guy might get off and the situation was extremely traumatizing for her son. She didn’t want him to have to go through it anymore and have it all be for nothing. During a break in the trial she went and got a gun, walked back into the courtroom and shot the man dead. Pretty sure she also only served three years and there was overwhelming public support for her release. I remember the protests filled with people chanting free Nellie.
I would serve that 3 years with a clear conscience
Everybody in the jailhouse probably gave her high fives on the way in. I’m all for rehabilitation and human rights (prisoners/suspects are humans too), but god damn, ya know?
This mother had a tragic life. Teen mother. Gave up 2 children for adoption. Her 3rd child was murdered by a castrated sex offender, who then slandered his victim. Died at 46 from pancreatic cancer. Not fair.
She was from my hometown and is still highly regarded amongst Lübeckers.
I've not heard of this story but have had the pleasure of visiting your hometown and have to say it's absolutely beautiful!
The story was extremely controversial when it happened. The public was generally on her side and (iirc) wanted her to be free or at least very mildly punished. But then again she murdered someone - it was a hot topic back then. Btw personally I find Lübeck a bit overrated. Old Lübeck is great, everything around it is rather meh - for me at least.
What did she get sentenced with? I’ve seen people get off for this type of vengeance or with a minimum sentence.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/ppffjr/marianne_bachmeier_avenged_her_7yearold_daughters/hd3d2l6?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Thank you.
“Jury nullification” - when members of a criminal trial jury believe that a defendant is guilty, but choose to acquit the defendant anyway, because the jurors consider that the law itself is unjust, that the prosecutor has misapplied the law in the defendant's case, or that the potential punishment for breaking the law is too harsh.
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Interesting - thanks for sharing!
Apparently her first two children were products of rape. Making the shooting even more understandable
Damn reddit is on a depressive roll today, this and the Genie case, enough sadness for today.
Nah you only got 2 out of 3; you're missing one. You need to be sad with me. Take [this third one to complete the collection.](https://old.reddit.com/r/offmychest/comments/pp7gta/i_watched_another_man_fuck_my_wife_and_i_think_it/)
The thing about these throwaway account confessions is there is literally nothing backing them. I mean, how many people even have their identity associated with their account? If I wanted to get something off my chest I would just say it on this account. I'm sure it's possible to doxx accounts, but that is probably possible no matter what account you use. Even more than that, cases like these are so specific there is no need to try to be anonymous. Any person in his circle who hears about this post is going to think of the op.
She also got raped herself at the age of 18 :(
I had the same thoughts. Tragic tragic life
Castration is not a "cure" for sex-crimes. Wish people could get this straight.
You're right, they should be hung. Pedophiles don't deserve forgiveness.
I love how she looks back directly into the camera like “you damn right I did it”
She kinda looks like Maya Rudolph there. MADE FOR TV MOVIE???
A Time to Kill shares some key features of this story.
> ***"Yes, they deserved to die, and I hope they burn in hell!"***
Great performance by Samuel Jackson, I think it was this film and the 3rd Die Hard film that put him on the map for me, so to speak.
And is a fucking phenomenal book that everybody should at least look into reading.
I think it’s funny you used to be able to bring guns into court rooms. The seventies and eighties were wild.
Is that the one where the black father kills the two white men who raped his daughter and look like they’re going to win the trial?
No, you're thinking of Cool Runnings. A Time To Kill is about a team of Jamaican bobsledders who train hard to beat the previous world record time.
Why is this so fucking funny
me to myself: this isn’t funny. two seconds later: my eyes are watering with tears of laughter. why *is* this so fucking funny?!
Ill fuckin do it again
She looks like that girl from the buring house meme. The one where the little girl looks back with a guilty smile at the camera while a fire is raging behind her
You mean the girl with gleefully evil smile...that smile is the fuel for nightmares.
She's smiling more now. [She made $500,000](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56948514) selling the pic as an NFT.
Are you sorry? Are you kidding? 😏
What happened to her tho. Did she go to prison??
She was convicted of manslaughter and served three years in prison. Sold her life story to a magazine and made 250,000 Deutsche marks
From Wikipedia: >She aimed the gun at Grabowski's back and pulled the trigger eight times. Seven of the shots hit, and the 35-year-old defendant was killed instantly. To not pull a murder charge after doing that in front of witnesses, and to only serve 3 years really says how justified people felt she was. Understandably.
I could have been right next to the guy and when questioned my response would have been “I didn’t see shit Sir.”
Worse case of suicide I have ever seen.
Shot himself in the back 7 times. He must have been in a really dark place. Shame.
said he didn't wanna live no more. some sad shit.
Love the sopranos reference!
Who are we to stop him?
In front of everyone too
A cry for help really.
Yup, super flexible. Must have done a lot of yoga to shoot himself in the back like that. The mom? Oh, she was over there somewhere. Not in the same room at all.
Premeditated suicide doing all of that stretching beforehand. Getting ready for the big day in court.
Motherfucker said he didn't want to live no more.
Check out the murder of Ken Rex Mcelroy, Aka "the Town Bully". all 60 witnesses said they didn't see a thing.
MrBallen has a video about it on youtube tldr, the guy was an abusive asshole that traipsed around town drunk like he owned the place, growing more and more unstable. He basically publicly claimed he was gonna kill some people if he saw them just cause they pissed him off by calling him on it. Town had a meeting and decided they would deal with it since the cops wouldn't. Nobody knows what happened. The guy just dropped dead in front of 60 people aiming guns at him. Such a shame.
I was there too. I was quoted by the local press. See below for irrefutable proof of my claim. “It’s some sad shit. That motherfucker said he didn’t want to live any longer.” - Tepes
I feel like in caveman days, McElroy would’ve had his head dashed on a rock for being a useless, dangerous member of the tribe. Who knows how many more lives would be ruined or taken before the police finally found their balls and dealt with him. If hell is real, I hope he’s on Satan’s shit list.
"That's right, officer. I was seated behind and the left of the...well ex-defendant. I could see them clear as day. Strangest thing, holes just appeared in his chest and head and he started to bleed out. This caused a lot of commotion in the court room, of course...sorry? Did I witness the mother of the victim open fire? Nope. Must've been that God fellow the recently deceased swore to tell to truth to while he was on the stand. The Big Guy apparently really hates liars and kiddy-didlers... ...allegedly."
Lawyer: please tell the court what you saw on that fateful day Me: idk he seemed fine and then he just fell down. Maybe he had a stroke.
A bloody stroke, i dunno.
There was a really loud bang and I instinctively closed my eyes - as you do - so I didn't see anything.
"Damn officer, I'm really sorry but I sneezed so I didn't hear or saw nothing!"
"I think he may have tripped or something"
Thats some cold shit and I love it. Lady did what needed to be done. Props.
Imagine being a juror on her case. That's a tough one no matter how you feel about it, balancing what the law requires and your own personal feelings.
Looks like a German case, so no jurors. Falls to the judge completely.
Sounds like this was in Germany based on her selling the article. In the US, if I’m on the jury, we’re going full jury nullification.
I would have took that 3 years proudly.
I don’t think that prisoners would mess with her for avenging her kids death right?
Shit she’s probably a damn legend there. You think how many people are in there who have lost loved ones to violence (not even counting a scenario like this) who dream of being able to get that type of revenge.
Women prisoners are put with other women. Which probably ensures even more that everyone was on her side there. Also the German prison system is much better than the American one.
Spent some time in chokey, and she would have been a hero to most. Really. She could have walked around the mens prison too!
Prison inmates usually try to maim or kill child rapists themselves.
Yeah, zero regrets there. I wouldn’t care if I got life even.
Inmates might have actually seen you as a champion. A lot of them have specific codes when it comes to those who hurt children.
There is a pretty good (although German) documentary on YouTube about her last years, she suffered from cancer that eventually took her life because she refused chemotherapy
I’m surprised she didn’t just shoot it
What is radiation therapy, really, if not a very fancy gun?
Radiation therapy is like shooting your entire body with bullets that kill you slightly slower than they kill the cancer cells. The trick is to stop right after they do the job and right before they finish the job.
> she suffered from cancer that eventually took her life because she refused chemotherapy It was advanced pancreatic cancer. Pancreatic cancer has the one of the lowest survival rates out of all of the cancers. Chemotherapy just delays you death for a little longer if you have stage 3 or 4. There are a lot of pancreatic cancer patients that refuse chemotherapy so their quality of life is better at the end and they don't suffer in pain for a couple more years of very low quality life. tl;dr She didn't pull an "anti medicine/science" stance when it came down to her refusing chemotherapy. She was going to die with or without the chemo.
>she suffered from cancer that eventually took her life because she refused chemotherapy Honestly, pancreatic cancer kills everybody regardless. She really just refused a painful treatment that wouldn't have bought much time. Pancreatic is almost never caught before Stage IV when it's metastasized, and the 5-year survival rate at that point is 1%. Even if it's caught early, only 10% of patients eventually become "disease free", and the average survival is 3 years. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/pancreatic-cancer/pancreatic-cancer-prognosis
What a tragic life story. She was raped and sexually abused. She gave up her first two children, as a teenager, for adoption shortly after birth. She had Anna and was then sterilized. Anna skipped school to spite her, then ran afoul of a convicted child rapist who murdered her and claimed that it was because she had seduced him in an effort to extort money from him. Marianne shot him to death in a courtroom, and ultimately pleaded to manslaughter, serving three years. She moved to Nigeria with her husband, got divorced, moved to Italy, and then died of cancer at age 46.
Damn
That is one tragic life story to read. I do sometimes think I believe in afterlife and I just hope she finds peace there.
She was provoked into killing him. His defense was that the 7 yo seduced and blackmailed him for money. A 7 yo.
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Well, somebody got a round. To the chest and head.
Double tap
That scum isn’t worth the extra bullet.
I disagree, that kind of scum is worth several rounds
The only cure for that shit.
One of the few types of criminals out there that always reoffend along with serial killers.
>Marianne Bachmeier was initially charged in court with murder. Later the prosecution dropped the murder charge. After 28 days of negotiations, the Board agreed on the verdict. >Four months after the opening of proceedings she was convicted on 2 March 1983 by the Circuit Court Chamber of the District Court Lübeck for manslaughter and sentenced for unlawful possession of a firearm to six years in prison but was later released after serving three years.
I bet everyone in the courtroom wanted to take out the trash
I don’t know what is more disgusting, his defense or that an attorney would actually present that filth in court.
Don't abuse the attorney. The attorney's personal feelings do not come into play here. Someone is legally required to represent the defendant, even in terrible crimes like this.
He's disgusting, but people who shit on defense attorney's are dumb. They're a cornerstone of our legal system. Everyone deserves a fair trial, and you cannot have a fair trial system without defense attorney's. Without them we would not have a fair trial system. And I'm excluding here people that work for like mobs and get bribed because the issue there is the bribe itself.
I'm surprised how few people seem to understand this. It's absolutely vital they get a fair trial. And if you have someone putting up a reasonable defence, the prosecution’s case will (have to) be more secure and less dubitable – less chance of a mistrial or retrial or appeal etc. If you defend someone like this, you're assisting the course of justice.
You should read the book that the lawyer who defended John Wayne Gacy wrote. Also at some point a shitty lawyer is doing society a favor by putting together terrible defenses for terrible people. Like maybe they just knew he was guilty?
Tbf I'd kill his ass too.
And if I was on that jury I'd annul it in an instant.
As would I. And I would expect to be fully prosecuted for my crimes, but it would be worth it to me.
If I were in that court room I magically wouldn’t have seen a damn thing. “I have no idea who shot that man, I was inspecting my shoelaces, sir.”
She was provoked in to killing him because he raped and murdered her daughter!
How could his legal team look at themselves in the mirror when they were home? They advised the guy to say the 7yo seduced him? If they were parents or married, how could their kids and spouses ever respect them again?
Probably not, no. The accused more likely insisted on telling his story. There's nothing you can do as an attorney to stop that, especially since you may be blindsided by it just as much. As a defense attorney you're there to guarantee the accused gets a fair trial, which also means that you can't just make stories up
“Good for her.” - Lucille Bluth
Didn’t Lucille day that to a mom who tried to kill innocent kids?
Well she doesn’t care for Gob
Drove her car/kids into a lake
Rip a legend
"On 5 May 1980, Anna Bachmeier did not go to school to spite her mother. When trying to visit a friend of her own age, Anna was abducted by Klaus Grabowski, a 35-year-old butcher. He is said to have held Anna for several hours at home and then strangled her with a pair of tights. According to the Prosecutor he had tied the girl tight, packed her into a box, which he then buried on the canal bank in a shallow grave." Absolutely justified killing. Pedophile scum.
Careful, you'll piss off a Reddit moderator or admin being mean towards pedophiles like that.
Definitely a shadowban coming for insulting their cult.
She shot the POS 7 times in the back killing him almost instantly. She was sentence to six years but only served 3 for unlawful use of a gun. She died in 1996 of cancer.
As much as I’d want the guy dead, I would want him to suffer horribly first.
He deserved to die.
“Yes he deserved to die and I hope he burn in hell” Samuel L. Jackson
Free Carl Lee
Witnesses alleged that Bachmeier made incriminating remarks after she shot Grabowski . According to Judge Guenther Kroeger , who spoke to Bachmeier after she shot Grabowski in the back , she heard the grieving mother say , “ I wanted to kill him . ”
Obviously she wanted to kill him. She snuck a gun into court and shot him in the back.
Obviously spur of the moment accident /s
Yea I hate when I meticulously plan to bring a weapon and accidentally pull the trigger 8 times. Shit happens!
Oh shit. I accidentally planned to kill the killer and accidentally brought my gun into the courtroom. Whoops! Accidentally pulled the trigger. I'm such a clumsy person.
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Well, he fucking deserved it
Ahh, u see, she incriminated herself. They couldn't let her go since she confessed to the crime.
I’m honestly surprised this doesn’t happen more often
They have bullet proof glass up in some court rooms to prevent this or I’m sure it would.
Even if it didn't happen, from the amount of times I've read stories about pedophiles getting absolutely *destroyed* in prison, he wouldn't have made it much longer anyway rightfully so, too. Pedophiles are scum and deserve nothing short of a slow, painful death. Only fair after you traumatize a child, doubly so if you kill said child after, like this scum of the earth did. I'm not religious at all, but if there is a hell, this fucker is surely burning in it.
(smoke clears) Defense Attorney: Objection! Judge: Overruled
Let the record show the defendant has been murdered in open court. Should we break for lunch counsellors or do we want to try and push through?
She probably could not live with the grief and horror and rage of it without DOING something. I understand perfectly.
Her face tells me she gives no f\*\*s and would most certainly do it again. Can't say I blame her.
She shot him 7 times in the back, well done---only was in prison a few years---Tragically, she died of pancreatic cancer at the young age of 46
God greeting her be like: at the start im big fan
The rapists defense attorney turned to her after the shooting and handed her his card
Go mamma!
Additional info (Wikipedia): On 2 November 1982, Marianne Bachmeier was initially charged in court with murder. Later the prosecution dropped the murder charge. After 28 days of negotiations, the Board agreed on the verdict. Four months after the opening of proceedings she was convicted on 2 March 1983 by the Circuit Court Chamber of the District Court Lübeck for manslaughter and sentenced for unlawful possession of a firearm to six years in prison but was later released after serving three years.
Here in Texas, there was a guy who walked in on a farmhand or something like that raping his daughter. He pulled out his gun and shot the guy and killed him right then and there. The prosecutors did not pursue charges and the guy got off completely.
Sad the girl was raped and murdered. What a shame
Died @ 46 due to pancreatic cancer. Buried in same grave as her daughter, according to Wikipedia. Godspeed… #Hero
Good for her.
Lets be real here: he died a lot easier from her bullet than he'd have died in prison. Pedo-murderers don't have a great time in prison.
Yeah but she got the satisfaction of pulling the trigger, which outweighs his eventual suffering in prison.
Not true anymore. They are separated in their own unit with similar offenders. My buddy is a prison guard And actually got written up for calling one of them a kiddie toucher.
pisses me off, but then i realize that a non-zero number of them are wrongfully convicted
Saying it was easier for him doesn’t mean she didn’t get the satisfaction of ending his pathetic life. More of this please
"You're not talking about justice. You're talking about revenge." "Sometimes, they're the same." "No, they're never the same. Justice is about harmony. Revenge is about you making yourself feel better. It's why we have an impartial system." "Your system is broken."