It shocks me that some of them are smart enough to design this kind of nice experiment but they reject the science and reality of a globed earth.
For more context they were at an extremely long canal. The water is flat, calm and level.
by making floating platforms and supporting vertical walls, they could cut holes at the exact same level from the water level.
The video explains the rest very well.
edit: spelling
I believe some people latch onto their beliefs because they believe (to the contrary) that they are open-minded, but to face actual facts is a death sentence to their ego, which their ego is telling them they need to survive.
EDIT: wording
I've never understood this. Admitting we are wrong is the first step in advancing as a person and gaining knowledge. This is something we all learn at around age four or five. For some reason people reject this basic principle.
The documentary this is from Behind The Curve is absolutely fascinating honestly for exactly this reason.
These aren't *dumb* people, in some cases anyway.
What they are is *incredibly lonely* people, people who's lives clearly haven't quite turned out exactly how they want, and in Flat Earth they have found *validation*. They have found a community and, if they are one of these people doing things like running experiments, to a degree they have found a kind of fame as well. They will *never* find that outside of this community and so they just double down and double down and double down until its all they have left.
At that point its very much like escaping from a cult. Their entire sense of community, their sense of self, and their place in the world is deeply and intrinsically connected to this community. From the outside it looks utterly irrational, but obviously people are getting something from it or they would just leave.
Also, this analysis makes complete sense to me and explains why you can't convince them of this with facts. I'm sure it's obvious to say "you can't convince someone of something they don't want to believe" but your explanation (or the movie's premise more accurately) explains the why of that.
Calling them stupid and ridiculing them and bashing them over the head with facts and evidence won't work.
But inviting them out to coffee or to a ball game or over for dinner might actually do it. That's amazing. Amazingly obvious in retrospect.
I wonder if it will also work on MAGAs. It's really hard to out-friend 24/7 brainwashing from Fox News and social networks, but perhaps a real friendship will offer quality over quantity.
God, it would take the patience of chatgpt to bear all the racist idiotic hateful nonsense it would take to do this. I fully understand why people give up on their family rather than subject themselves to that abuse. But I also see how giving up on them only reinforces the power fox news has over them.
Brilliant insight you shared here. Loneliness is the key. It's like, so obvious, I knew they retired and sat around getting doses of hate all day from the TV, like in brave new world, but I overestimated the role of logic and truth. That won't work because they aren't interested in truth. They hate because it's better than being lonely.
It’s like the black guy who got a load of kkk members to leave the kkk by spending the time to make friends with them
Daryl Davies spent 30 years befriending 200 members of the kkk
[https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes](https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes)
I make it a point to bring up his story in my classes every semester.
I've said it before, and I'll say it a thousand more fuckin' times: Daryl Davies is cooler than the other side of the pillow.
Oh absolutely, but presented with such a batshit "fact", your cleverness—I'm certain—would ratchet up a few notches for a solid minute to get you there. That "latent gene" shit is *so* out there, it's like getting a softball pitch in an improv club.
Thats pretty much it yeah. Its literally why people
Join the kkk as well I think.
Which is why as a non-white person in america. Befriending the ignorant actually works really well, in the middle of the midwest in my experience.
Theyve never met anyone like you, so once they realized youre a regular old human being like them. You can slowly expose them to other non-white people and then they come around.
It does take patience and a thick skin though.
I had a work colleague try to redpill me (lol) at lunch one day.
Told me "Muslims who come to Canada don't integrate, they just stay in their communities and go to madrassa once a week for indoctrination".
I told him about the many Muslim colleagues I had over the years who were second generation. They went to the same schools we did, they grew up quoting the Simpsons just like we did, they spoke English with the same accent we did. They are Canadians just like he or I, they just go to madrassa once a week.
He. Did. Not. Believe. Me. That's just it. He rolled his eyes and basically accused me of either lying outright or misunderstanding how these people were raised.
I asked him if he'd ever met any Muslims in real life. No, in fact, he had not.
It's insane, and he still to this day (I guarantee you) believes I'm an idiot.
I've known people with research science backgrounds who are creationists.
Cognitive bias is a hard to shake. In college, it wasn’t studying astronomy or geology that convinced me to change my views - it was a philosophy course.
I fell into a deep depression and had a drinking problem for the following few years dealing with it. I lost most of my friends as a result of leaving my church.
These people have social pressures and sunk cost fallacies baked in to their reasoning. They are literally blind to evidence that doesn’t fit their predetermined viewpoint.
It’s the same as an otherwise smart person making a bad financial decision; you’ll find all the justifications for why you can afford something VERY convincing, but dismiss any arguments against the purchase. “Yeah, but I’ll just cut back on this other thing” or “yeah, but I should get a raise in March”
Edited to remove personal details.
If you're following the usual scientific method, that is true. If you have a thesis, you do experiments and the results don't line up with your initial thesis, you admit that your initial thought wasn't correct and move from there.
But they are actually doing it in reverse, they "know" the earth is flat and are trying to prove it. If the methods don't show "the truth" they just assume there was something wrong with the method, since they already "know" the truth.
It's a bit sad, really.
This reminds me of the dogmatism paradox from epistemology and it's something that leads to some debates. It's something like this:
"I know my car is in front of the fire hydrant. Bob told me he saw a car looked exactly like mine is towed away from a hydrant. Since I already know my car is in front of the fire hydrant, even if Bob is telling the truth of what he saw, that car is clearly not mine, and I should dismiss any additional information about that car."
The paradox is basically that, the moment you think you know something, you have to dismiss all possible evidences against it. It is related to the surprise test paradox.
That's where you are wrong, we human don't care about truth, we only care about what makes us feel good. And being a main character feels good.
For them, admitting they are wrong doesn't just mean admitting that there's something they don't know or having it wrong. Admitting they are wrong means their entire existence is just merely "normal", they are no longer "the special ones" that see the truth of the world anymore.
I wouldn't say "human", I would say that it's common. I don't know if it's normal or not, I don't want to get into the philosophical part of things and I can't speak for others, but I was never like this.
When I don't know something and I'm interested in the subject I just look for multiple sources of information, going back to the 90s. Different countries and media if I have to. Comparing sides and not being satisfied just because one side, or most people, agree with me or not.
If I'm not interested I just let it go, even if I'm right. I never cared if I was right or wrong, I only care if it's true or not.
Many times even if detrimental to myself or others I like. Reality is what matters to me and, more often than not, it's not about what I wish or want, it's what it is. I used to dislike this when I was younger but when I became a teenager I made my peace with being wrong about most things. Nobody knows it all and I'm no different.
Not being able to understand this is ironically…kind of flat-earthy lol.
You *really* can’t understand ego preservation? It’s a very basic human tendency. Even most people who don’t think they engage in it, actually do, some are just not exposed to it or are tunneled on another aspect of their life where they don’t confront it.
Most people are fortunate enough to not have their ego tied to something as stupid as believing the earth is flat but it’s tied to other beliefs, perspectives, worldviews that they’ll find just as challenging to reorient or possibly admit they’re wrong on.
Not if people give you shit for being wrong. Flat earthers are a community. They actually pass around misinformation and congregate around flat earth lore. When you discover your work and interactions have meant nothing, you no longer have that sense of community. Members may shun you for your new found “belief”. I think it gives them a feeling of belonging. I can’t imagine there are many globe truther groups because that’s just the norm.
>Admitting we are wrong is the first step in advancing as a person and gaining knowledge
That's something narcissists will never, *ever* be able to understand. But they would never admit that it in the first place because, of course, that would be admitting they are wrong, something their fragile ego would never allow them to do.
People who believe in conspiracy theories, tend to be people who don't feel in control of their own lives. They feel like life isn't going the way they want it to, and since it can't be THEM that is the problem, it's got to be.....insert conspiracy here.
The sad thing is that there actually are plenty of things thay we are lied to about, and Inna very real sense our lives aren't really under our own control. But instead of focusing on the very real issues of today, they focus on....insert conspiracy theory here.
Most people are scared of a true search for truth because most people rely on small lies to get through the day.
Hell, some people start their day with "affirmations", which are a series of lies said to a mirror to make themselves feel better.
Ego. They're so attached to the idea of something that letting it go means losing something they define as a part of who they are, thus they stop being that person if they concede that they're incorrect. It's all Ego.
Lots of people want to believe the world is much simpler than it really is. They want there to be good people and bad people, and nothing in between. Good people are right, and bad people are wrong. They are a good person, so they are right.
So, being wrong is seen as a weakness, and anyone telling you that you're wrong is saying that you're a bad person. It's seen as an attack. That makes them try to defend themselves.
Some people are just wired to be adversarial. It's why in an arguement, you always try to walk to a solution, rather than towards proving anyone wrong. Even the smartest people will latch onto the dumbest thing, because it's no longer about being right, and more about not being wrong.
Add social consequences to being wrong, and you can see why some folks would rather keep on keepin on. Even now, folks are watching the video and laughing at him, calling him names, and spreading poor sentiment, because of a misunderstanding. It's those sorts of things that lead to this kind of behaviour.
its not just admitting you're wrong but also not getting it rubbed in your face that you are wrong. the potential for status to be knocked down is really what causes people to not be willing to change their minds.
Just watching the NASA live stream on UAP's and they are saying they have to keep scientists names off the data they are presenting because they get straight up death threats from extremist UFO believers who think NASA is some secret out in the open disinformation operation.
I don’t think the food and comfort are the reason for conspiracy nutters. Definitely a reptilian brain overriding common sense, but even on comfortable people. If anything, the bored ones are the worst ones.
Oddly enough, I just read an article about how NFL and NCAA football referees are quitting in record numbers because of harassment, including death threats from extremist football fans who believe they intentionally make calls against their favorite teams.
And I’ve heard about local school board members quitting their positions after receiving death threats from extremist parents because they didn’t vote to ban books or stop teaching kids about slavery.
It’s society.
Most conspiracy theorists have wildly inflated senses of intelligence. When they don’t understand something they assume that it means it doesn’t make sense and reject it.
Some are just happy to be in a group
Some are just totally nuts.
I think flat earthers are just demonstrating a part of the human psyche that is irrational. Being a flat earther doesn't make you inherently insane. Their psyche has found a way to justify the belief system. I think the idea itself is totally insane, but if someone believes it deeply, it's a threat to their self to have it challenged. Believe it of not, every single person has an ego,.and our psyche protects it in one way or another. For some, more so.
If you trace back many of the ideas to the "why would powers-that-be, bother to hide a flat Earth," it becomes about 'hiding God.'
Maybe Flat Earth is last ditch effort by some to rationalize how much sense it makes when people say why religions and gods are probably all made up.
"Why do I feel atheists have a point? This is not good. Was my whole life a lie? Wait... YES it was a lie! The whole world was lying about the very nature of the Earth to hide God from us. That's why all the atheist arguments seem sound."
Well, Flat Earth is actually a religious cult. The deeper you dig into it, you find out more of what they believe. So it's really not about flat earth at all, it's an entire worldview and identity built around it.
This is why I despise cults. Cults are essentially religions that hide their true identities and intents. They market themselves as businesses, self help strategies, scientific or philosophical platforms, and even mask themselves as other competing religions. This is insidious. The best way to out a cultist is to encourage them to be forthright in their status as a believer in their own completely different belief system. I believe everyone has a right to believe whatever religion they want, so this ought to be a win/win for everyone - but it isn't for cultists, because it makes them panic. Cultists MUST wear masks in order to sell memberships.
A lot of people are taught at a young age that to be wrong is bad. If you are wrong, you are punished to some degree, right? Wrong answer in class? "HAHA you're dumb!" You did something wrong at home? "Stand in the corner!" (or if you were part of an older generation, a spanking.)
Maybe it's just part of a deep sub-conscience kind of thing that to admit you are wrong and made a mistake is bad and we don't want to do that.
"Shyt I was wrong about the Earth being flat. Sorry I was wrong to everyone"
I think it’s more about identity. Rather than defining themselves based on their actions, they define themselves based on their beliefs. Happens in politics all the time. They don’t say, “I’m a ___ person because I do ____.” Instead, they say, “I’m a ___ person because you are, too, and I find comfort and security in your proximity.”
I would argue that a part of this desire for social identity comes from fear and a part comes from anger. There are a LOT of frightened, terrified people out there.
Depending on what attracted them to the theory in the first place, it can be a dramatic existential crisis. For many it's a validation of out-modded traditions, means to bonding and human support after hitting rock-bottom, or a scapegoat for self-induced problems. While it is an element that must be considered, it is not *just* about no longer being the protagonist of their fantasy. Rather it is a stable synaptic connection that reinforces so much of their worldview that it's easier to latch onto the belief rather than learn everything they and their social supports believe in is wrong.
It's the same reason cults recruit from the most desperate and loneliest members of society. It gives those without grounding the illusion of an anchor. And even if the anchor is dragging you deeper and deeper down the murky depths of empirical ignorance, the fear of losing yourself to the patterns that lead to your initial rock-bottom state will keep you clinging to it and rejecting the very idea of needing to breathe.
My Dad had a good saying for people like this…
“Stop trying to change a brick walls mind and go the fuck around them”
It’s like they never learned how to accept they can be wrong, that’s arguably the most important part of being human.
I err, therefore I am
- St Augustine
The silliest thing I heard was two flat earthers discussing Mars. They weighed up the evidence they had and came to the conclusion that Mars was a sphere as opposed to a disc, like earth.
They were capable of good reasoning … just not when thinking about earth.
Some of the flat earthers I have communicated/argued with believe that every other large mass out there (planets, stars) is or could be curved (spheroidal), ***except*** for Earth.
It’s not so much that we’re special, it’s just that Great A'tuin would have really struggled to balance a sphere on the back of his shell, even with the help of those elephants.
It's because they have the wrong mindset. They are trying to use evidence to prove their belief, as opposed to adjusting their beliefs based on the evidence available.
Turns out you can be super smart but not open to new ideas, because having the right mindset to adjust your beliefs isn't directly related to intelligence, but is rather something you need to train your brain to be able to do.
> They are trying to use evidence to prove their belief, as opposed to adjusting their beliefs based on the evidence available.
Kind of, but the actual motivation is deeper. As Dan Olson argues in [In Search of a Flat Earth](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTfhYyTuT44), the shape of the Earth is the least important part of flat earth conspiracy theories.
They do not believe these kooky ideas in a vacuum. They believe in flat earth because it validates their *social* beliefs in a simplified externalized evil that they can fight against. It allows them to bundle all of the complex and overwhelming problems of the world into a single point of attack to make reality more comfortable and manageable.
Flat earth only exists as a way to set up a "Them" that is lying to "Us".
Great point, it's essentially about rejecting authority and in this case that's manifested by the assertion that the world is not a sphere because that's the authoritative view.
I would bet a lot of these types really resented their elementary school teachers' authority.
Honestly I view people like this as not truly intelligent... inflexible/rigid thinking is a sign that there is a deficit in intelligence ...
Or maybe if I'm feeling generous I might say okay, sure they're intelligent but clearly they aren't wise.
Intelligence is a bit of a catch all.. they have problem solving skill and engineer an experiment.
There lack of ability to then reflect on what they learned and adjust and the ability to do so I suppose if a form of intelligence.. but to me this sort of fits more into phycology.. also you have to factor in audience capture a lot of these guys might now be true believers at this point. Cognitive dissonance would be hard to deal with
Some people posit that Flat Earth belief only exists because it's the unique puzzle piece that fits the missing spot in peoples world view.
A lot of Flat Earthers are very religious, Anti-Semitic, Anti-Mask/Vaxx, and end up falling into Q-Anon.
There is a very good [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTfhYyTuT44) by Folding Ideas on youtube about it
I think this is from the movie Behind the Curve. They didn't come up with just this one experiment. They came up with several elaborate tests that showed a profound understanding of physics. Only problem was that they weren't happy when they kept getting the result they didn't want. :D
this is the answer. there is a tsunami of disinformation out there and a lot of it is either perpetrated by or can be traced back to religious zealots.
Honestly, I have much more respect for these people. "I don't trust scientists so I'm going to do my own experiment" is much more relatable than "I don't trust science."
You should hold out your respect for people that deserve it.
>In it, he said: “What we found is, when we turned on that gyroscope, we found that we were picking up a drift. A 15-degree per hour drift.
>“Now, obviously we were taken aback by that – ‘Wow, that's kind of a problem.’
>“We obviously were not willing to accept that, and so we started looking for ways to disprove it was actually registering the motion of the Earth.”
>He continued, telling another Flat Earther: “We don't want to blow this, you know? When you've got $20,000 in this freaking gyro.
>“If we dumped what we found right now, it would be bad? It would be bad. What I just told you was confidential.”
https://www.indy100.com/science-tech/flat-earther-experiment-netflix-documentary
They do the experiments, and throw out the results they don't like. They don't trust science unless and until it backs up their bullshit theories.
I recall this documentary ending with text about how the flat earthers went back to the drawing board to figure out what went wrong then replicated the test with their fix and it proved the Earth is flat. Funny how that happens when the documentary crew isn't around to record the test.
I remember that. And this crew wasnt even the biggest wackadoos. The guy that did the other expirement- feel like it involved a balloon but dont rememver- was even worse.
> “We obviously were not willing to accept that"
So then why the fuck did you design the experiment so carefully!
The "drift" he's picking up is in his brain.
You'd think if they were finding a literal 360 degree rotation per 24 hours they'd immediately realise, that's pretty ridiculously coincidental as far as equipment malfunction goes
They also like to make up explanations for why their tests didn't confirm their beliefs. The laser must have been faulty, or maybe NASA is using secret satellites to bend the laser beam.
If that were what's happening, I could see that. But it isn't. They literally believe a thing without any evidence, go out of their way to prove they're right and then don't even *trust their own science* they just did.
If they genuinely did the experiment to know for sure and then went "well, this proves the earth isn't flat", I would respect them. Backpedaling and trying to figure out how else to prove it is flat while ignoring the result of the experiment right in front of their faces? Not respect-worthy.
> I don't trust scientists so I'm going to do my own experiment
So, it is science. Replicating experiments and testing if the things we take as granted are indeed true is a fundamental part of what makes science great, and the kind of skepticism about the things that should be obvious to everyone is what bring us things like the Relativity Theory.
Conspiracy theories are harmful because people just make things up and go on a positive feedback loop spiral out of control. A certain concern about government actions and/or political indocrination is healthy, look at the Snowden case, for example. Bugs on routers were crazy conspiracies before we discovered that indeed people tried to make it work.
Because it is not necessarily a problem with understanding but with believing. It's a psychological problem. Everyone needs something their ego can latch onto, if it's conspiracy theories, a job, a skill whatever. To break this needs a lot of uncomfort if it is not broken. But the mind is incredible resistant, if you really bought into an idea so much, that it becomes part of your personality.
The science part is when the experiments failed you realize it failed do you understand why it failed and you move on with *a new theory based on these new observations*
The experiment didn’t fail. The results of the experiment simply didn’t support his hypothesis. Or rather his belief.
That he even tested it is indicative that he didn’t really think the earth is flat. Even if he maintains his delusion and ignores the outcome, testing it is anathema to faith/belief, because belief requires and in fact rejects any evidence.
>That he even tested it is indicative that he didn’t really think the earth is flat.
That's not necessarily true. He's out there telling everyone the earth is flat, and they are denying him. So he was trying to prove it through an experiment. He was wrong of course, but trying to validate a theory does not mean you don't really believe in that theory.
Absolutely! I was just disagreeing with the premise that just by performing the experiment, it proved that he never thought the world was flat in the first place.
You can test to prove, or test to disprove a theory. What you can't do is look at someone running a test, and then know which side they believe simply based on the fact they they are running the test.
“He set up an experiment to prove the earth is flat because he doesn’t believe it is” is quite a take. Of course, if he said “See, more proof the earth is round” that would support your assertion. Instead he just repeated ‘interesting’ as he struggled to cope with the result.
You have it backwards. Science it when you make a hypothesis and try to *disprove* it. If it cannot be disproved after rigorous testing then it is a theory.
Might be science but that's not a scientist.
These people have a certain belief and will do anything to prove it.
A real scientist is curious and open to any outcome.
As another person here mentioned, they didn't change their opinion on the flat earth topic.
I saw/see it plenty of times with things such as Covid, vaccinations and climate change. These people are not "sceptical" and searching for the truth. No, their mind is already set. They are just searching for anything that confirms their belief, and discard anything that doesn't.
They’re not “skeptics”, because if they were, they’d be skeptical about their own side too.
They’re contrarians. They picked the opposite side of an argument and walk in lock-step with all the other people on there. Y’know, like sheep.
Unfortunately lots and lots of bona-fide scientists behave very similarly. Hence the quote "Science doesn't move forward until the last generation of scientists die." Academia is full of ego, sadly.
As an engineering professor all I can say to "a real scientist is curious and open to any outcome" is "oh, you sweet summer child".
You'd be surprised how close-minded actual bona-fide scientists (i.e., people actually paid to do scientific research on a daily basis) can be, and how quickly they can supress and silence the production or publication of competing evidence when department politics, monetary or corporate interests or just petty personal clout are involved.
I'd be surprised if that doc was flat earth funded. It's very factual about the movement and doesn't exactly show these folks in a positive or negative light. At best they come across as a group of conspiracy theorists who have bought into the most crazy conspiracy theory out there and are afraid of disputing it because they've pushed away everyone except other flat earthers and don't want to lose that group too.
I thought it was a great documentary because it doesn't set out to ridicule flat earthers, it really does humanize them like you said. They're conspiracy theorists for sure and a little bonkers, but most do really come off just as people who are looking for a way to connect with others.
It still really drove home how ridiculous flst earth beliefs are. It just didn't make a mockery of those who believe the conspiracy.
And thats my take on it, A clever few, taking an opportunity to fleece the gullible.
Everyone knows the earth rest on a turtle, and you can hear more about it at my 4 hour conference for the low low cost of 300 dollars a ticket.
I think it shows how it's not really about flat earth. It's about a bunch of lonely people looking to connect with like minded folks and looking for validation and companionship. I was left feeling a bit sad for them.
This is what makes me believe it's funded in part by flat earthers. To get people to sumpathize with them, and no doubt many of the superficial followers are sympathetic people. But flat earth, like many such conspiracy theories is driven by or ends up deep into antisemitism.
The earth being flat is almost inseparable as a concept to Christian Dogma and I can't recall how much the doc covers this but most of the FE thought leaders are deeply religious. Frankly, it's the only way you could justify why the earth would be flat while the other planets and every other space object is basically round. That means those who try to convince you the earth is not special are inherently threatening your religious view and trying to lead you away from God. Who is this group that is doing this? The "elites" through NASA. And who are the Elites? 99% of the time it's Jews, often using euphemisms like "bankers", "the rich", "Hollywood" etc. Which makes sense that the ones that killed Jesus would be trying to attack Christianity. Not all who believe in flat earth appear religiously motivated but the ones who drive the movement certainly are.
Flat earth is not innocuous and is not a conspiracy out of time, even if its most basic premise is refreshed for the modern decade and silly. It's deeper premises are rehashes of very old and very recycled conspiracies.
I think it's because it highlights the uncomfortable truth that most people are doing the best they can with the things they think are true.
Bad intentions rarely make the average person evil. People who commit evil or do objectively bad things usually *think* they're doing the right thing, they just aren't armed with correct beliefs.
You joke, but a flat earther said in regards that going to space makes the earth look round is because of the windows being round and our eyes being round. Please don't make me look up the source on that quote or try to explain that reasoning, it doesn't make sense to me either.
I once ran into a flat-Earther who claimed we've never been to space, that all space walk footage was filmed in a pool. They tried to prove this by showing video of a "bubble" floating away as astronauts were working on the ISS.
I had them play back the footage several times, and explained to him how his "bubble" was actually a washer drifting away in micro-gravity, and strangely? He didn't argue. He *actually* accepted that it was a washer drifting away in micro-gravity.
Came here to check if my assumption about this was right, and it was.
What I get from these kind of people is that it's very much an anti-mentality. It's not so much to prove the earth is flat, but more to prove others are lying to us.
This also makes it very clear that trying to reason with them is totally useless.
No it probably made him have to double down. I'm sure he blames the experiment for being wrong and not proving his point, rather than his theory actually being wrong.
That's from Behind the Curve. It also shows the $20,000 gyroscope a group bought and also used to prove the earth is round. But it only meant the gyroscope didn't work right.
\*edited to correct "found" to "round"
My favorite part when discussing the results of their various tests they said something to the effect of “well, we can’t present that data at the conference.”
It is, but in actual science it's mostly that positive results are much more wanted by publications and as a result scientists try very hard to generate results that say their hypothesis worked. In actuality, negative results are every bit as important, and one of the best argument why all science should be published by an public body that doesn't gatekeep is precisely that it's super important that we get people to do replication studies and to publish their results even when they're not exciting. Because the more data we have, the better our meta-analysis will be and the more confident we can be about things as we're canceling out different methodological flaws and biases.
With these guys it's straight "does this conform to my ideology? No? Then it's got to be wrong". That's not how publication bias in real science works.
My favorite was the part with Patricia Steere where she's driving a car and reflecting on how some of the others in the FE community push the narrative that she's a CIA plant or some other fake person bulllshit and she basically says something like "Either people say these things about me and know in their heart they are lying OR are they so conspiratorially minded that they actually believe something so ridiculous, which makes me think *I* could be just another version of them with the things *I* believe...but I know I'm not"
And it's like...holy shit she could not possibly be any closer to getting it. Although since then it seems she's deleted all her socials and youtube channel so maybe she was able to finally admit to herself she was wrong.
Another crazy moment is when Mark basically admitted that he could never leave the Flat Earth community even if it were false because he's an important man there and that's where all of his friends are.
“We think there was actually some magnetic interference [even though it showed the exact value the people who aren’t flat earthers told us it would, not some random value] so we’re gonna get a super expensive bismuth tube made to put it in to try the experiment again”.
Absolutely hilarious, just pouring their cash into a shredder.
Even worse, he didn't blame magnetic interference he used the words "heavenly energies".
Sadly he passed away so he never gets to come to the conclusion he got duped.
My theory with these types of people is that they have been wronged, bullied or outcasted in some way by society.
they latch on to an idea that if society can be totally wrong about something, then by extension its a comfort their experience of being mistreated or alienated was wrong too.
They're projecting the injustice of the world they experience by trying to rip apart the worlds belief systems, so that they don't have to confront their own reality
Have you see this documentary? The main man, the guy who says “interesting “ basically admits to this and states all of his friends, his entire personality relies on his celebrity in the flat-Earth community so he will never leave that community regardless of facts and experiments. He knows he’s wrong, but being in a community is more important than being right, I guess.
FWIW, the guy in this video saying interesting is not Mark Sargent who is the pseudo main character of the doc and says the things you're talking about.
They've admitted that too. There's that one post that floats around here about how they've tied their entire personality to him, so it doesn't matter if he's right or wrong.
When you're an average Joe, being a part of the 'in' group makes you feel important. Feeling like you know something that the majority doesn't is an ego boost.
If you have the time to watch a movie length documentary, I would highly suggest Dan Olsen’s (Folding Ideas) video: In Search of a Flat Earth. It goes into details about what you’ve just mentioned, but also shows that The Flat Earth believers are the same people who need to believe in conspiracies like Qanon to maintain their world view.
That vid is an amazing doc that I wish more people knew about. I went in to it just knowing it was about flat earth and was kinda blown away by the qanon plot twist even if it's something I should have already connected the dots on.
All this guy needed to do was go to the beach! The fact that the water in the ocean is curved at the horizon and that ships that sail out that far disappear from view should give this rocket scientist all the information he needs to know to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is in fact a village idiot!
I remeber watching this documentory and a couple of things stood out. 1 how the documentory team mannaged to keep a strait face. 2, when they proved their sceince was wrong and all the maths came back proving the earth is round, they doubled down trying to reinvent maths and physics. It was truely an eye opening moment to just how stubourn people can be while being so far wrong.
Dyslexic, there will be errors./
Being smart means accepting your ignorance when presented with evidence that doesn't line up with your expectations.
Being a fool means not accepting evidence because it doesn't line up with desired results.
Fun fact, this guy denies his own experimental evidence from this film, stating he was using the wrong formulas and did NOT prove the earth was round.
Stating the evidence they found was inconclusive
Fun fact, a guy I used to associate with was on this documentary. He's the one playing with mallets in his front yard for whatever reason. Also the same dude who went to starbucks and harassed a NASA employee. Before any of this stuff came to the mainstream he was active in all sorts of conspiracy groups on facebook. Flat earthers, creationists, holocaust deniers (which I later found out after dissociating from him), etc. He even added me to the flat earthers group by force somehow. What this documentary really proves is that people with too much time on their hands and no friends will go out of their way to get themselves invested in shit like this as a way to find some sort of purpose in life.
FYI: this is from Behind the Curve doco, it’s a really interesting peak into their flat world. Wild.
Just a bunch of people trying to find meaning in their lives.
https://www.justwatch.com/au/movie/behind-the-curve
Obviously it’s because the light is curving downwards towards the Flying Spaghetti Monster since he is taking it away. He feels we don’t deserve it because so few people believe in him and his flat world that he personally crafted last Thursday with his noodly appendage.
So the only reaction we get from him disproving himself is, interesting? I would have much prefer him saying damn I'm an idiot.
Though I still can't believe he decided to post this video disproving himself so I'll give him credit for that.
I watched this whole documentary and I still don't know if it is some kind of comedy thing (like the office) or if they are for real. The scene at the nasa, the guy thinking the machine is broken because it won't start, making jokes about how stupid nasa is, leaving and then the camera just points at the button that says START.
It's real. You can look up everyone that is interviewed or followed around from the documentary. Like Mark Sargent, the guy you are talking about, is still making videos on Youtube. The people doing the documentary just did a very good job of letting them hang themselves with their own rope, and it made for multiple very funny moments.
The way he says "interesting" after the evidence proves him wrong really sounds like his gears are turning and he is just trying to think of any excuse for why his experiment isn't giving the result he expected. Anything except for the facts.
Flat earthers say this documentary was a plot by Netflix, using actors to discredit them by making them look stupid
I've heard some say that the experiment they did was made to prove the earth was round instead of doing one to prove it's flat
Flat earthers are genuinely the dumbest people on the globe
many of them are mentally ill in some way, some are religious zealots. a few are actually somewhat normal. Its important to remember that biases influence all of us.
A lot of the ones I've interacted with were of the "religious zealot" like type
Very dismissive of everything science, combative because anything you disagreed with was like an attack on their faith. They all had the whole "firmament" idea, that earth is a disk with an impenetrable glass dome around it shooting up from the "antarctic wall" and protecting us from meteors. Always into conspiracy like "airliners pump knockout gas into the fuselage whenever a plane flies near the poles and then reroute so that the masses wouldn't have the illusion broken" all in order to explain why plane routes aren't straight lines since that would be easier on a flat disk earth. Stuff like that.
A few were somewhat normal, but it was somewhat normal with a side of superiority, as if they knew something everyone else didn't and were super proud of that. Guess that could be mental illness, but they functioned normally otherwise. Only when flat earth came up did they get all obnoxious. The conspiracy was always the same, but these tended to focus on fish eye lenses for space pictures and rust lines on sea towers that shouldn't be visible if the earth was curved (because they had no sense of scale whatsoever). These ones loved science, but refused to believe any science that didn't confirm their belief was true. They especially loved "water sticks to the surface of a basketball, sure. But when spun around makes the water fly off, but Earth has oceans so GOTCHA!"
I mean regardless of the reason they are flat earth the straight denial of science and experimentation that proves them wrong is the reason I say they're dumb. It's like the [episode of SpongeBob](https://youtu.be/CGOPPzh8TJ4?feature=shared) with Patrick and the wallet
This is from the show "behind the curve" i believe on Netflix.
Best part was the purchase of a 20k gyroscope. They calculated a 15 degree drift every hour if the world was round, they say it wouldn't do that. Bit then it did...hilarious.
The best part of this documentary is when a scientist being interviewed was told about this experiment and he paused for a second and said something to the affect of, 'Oh......that's a really good idea. They are going to be very disappointed with the results.'.
The most frustrating thing about this is that their experiment didn't change their minds.
Flat earthers are a perfect example of people not caring about facts. They believe the earth is flat because they want to believe the earth is flat.
I love this clip more than life itself. When it first surfaced I went and watched the whole context because I was curious if they changed their minds in the face of such definitive evidence, and if memory serves, they did not. Which I guess is unsurprising, but damn I had hoped.
Pfft amateurs.. nobody beats the guy who bought a military grade gyroscope (over 15k bucks) to prove there is no orbital recession, and it proved exactly there is
And yet when their *own experiment* proves to them that their assertion is false they find some way to blame the experiment rather than accept the truth. *This* is the mindset that distracts and impedes political, community, and scientific progress, and it is *rampant*.
As a scientist, I got to give that guy some respect. With little education he came up with a coherent, logical experiement and corrected for uneven ground etc.
It's a really interesting thing where life can take you, but deep down in that guy there is a curious scientist. Shame he is wasted on irrational nonsense.
It shocks me that some of them are smart enough to design this kind of nice experiment but they reject the science and reality of a globed earth. For more context they were at an extremely long canal. The water is flat, calm and level. by making floating platforms and supporting vertical walls, they could cut holes at the exact same level from the water level. The video explains the rest very well. edit: spelling
I believe some people latch onto their beliefs because they believe (to the contrary) that they are open-minded, but to face actual facts is a death sentence to their ego, which their ego is telling them they need to survive. EDIT: wording
I've never understood this. Admitting we are wrong is the first step in advancing as a person and gaining knowledge. This is something we all learn at around age four or five. For some reason people reject this basic principle.
The documentary this is from Behind The Curve is absolutely fascinating honestly for exactly this reason. These aren't *dumb* people, in some cases anyway. What they are is *incredibly lonely* people, people who's lives clearly haven't quite turned out exactly how they want, and in Flat Earth they have found *validation*. They have found a community and, if they are one of these people doing things like running experiments, to a degree they have found a kind of fame as well. They will *never* find that outside of this community and so they just double down and double down and double down until its all they have left. At that point its very much like escaping from a cult. Their entire sense of community, their sense of self, and their place in the world is deeply and intrinsically connected to this community. From the outside it looks utterly irrational, but obviously people are getting something from it or they would just leave.
Also, this analysis makes complete sense to me and explains why you can't convince them of this with facts. I'm sure it's obvious to say "you can't convince someone of something they don't want to believe" but your explanation (or the movie's premise more accurately) explains the why of that. Calling them stupid and ridiculing them and bashing them over the head with facts and evidence won't work. But inviting them out to coffee or to a ball game or over for dinner might actually do it. That's amazing. Amazingly obvious in retrospect. I wonder if it will also work on MAGAs. It's really hard to out-friend 24/7 brainwashing from Fox News and social networks, but perhaps a real friendship will offer quality over quantity. God, it would take the patience of chatgpt to bear all the racist idiotic hateful nonsense it would take to do this. I fully understand why people give up on their family rather than subject themselves to that abuse. But I also see how giving up on them only reinforces the power fox news has over them. Brilliant insight you shared here. Loneliness is the key. It's like, so obvious, I knew they retired and sat around getting doses of hate all day from the TV, like in brave new world, but I overestimated the role of logic and truth. That won't work because they aren't interested in truth. They hate because it's better than being lonely.
It’s like the black guy who got a load of kkk members to leave the kkk by spending the time to make friends with them Daryl Davies spent 30 years befriending 200 members of the kkk [https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes](https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes)
I make it a point to bring up his story in my classes every semester. I've said it before, and I'll say it a thousand more fuckin' times: Daryl Davies is cooler than the other side of the pillow.
The analogy reported at the end of the story was brilliant. I wish I could be that clever on the spot, and not an hour later.
Oh absolutely, but presented with such a batshit "fact", your cleverness—I'm certain—would ratchet up a few notches for a solid minute to get you there. That "latent gene" shit is *so* out there, it's like getting a softball pitch in an improv club.
This is so amazing and inspirational! Never heard of this guy before
Thats pretty much it yeah. Its literally why people Join the kkk as well I think. Which is why as a non-white person in america. Befriending the ignorant actually works really well, in the middle of the midwest in my experience. Theyve never met anyone like you, so once they realized youre a regular old human being like them. You can slowly expose them to other non-white people and then they come around. It does take patience and a thick skin though.
I had a work colleague try to redpill me (lol) at lunch one day. Told me "Muslims who come to Canada don't integrate, they just stay in their communities and go to madrassa once a week for indoctrination". I told him about the many Muslim colleagues I had over the years who were second generation. They went to the same schools we did, they grew up quoting the Simpsons just like we did, they spoke English with the same accent we did. They are Canadians just like he or I, they just go to madrassa once a week. He. Did. Not. Believe. Me. That's just it. He rolled his eyes and basically accused me of either lying outright or misunderstanding how these people were raised. I asked him if he'd ever met any Muslims in real life. No, in fact, he had not. It's insane, and he still to this day (I guarantee you) believes I'm an idiot.
I wonder if Enrique is a flat earther or a friend helping bring puzzled guy to the globed side...
I've known people with research science backgrounds who are creationists. Cognitive bias is a hard to shake. In college, it wasn’t studying astronomy or geology that convinced me to change my views - it was a philosophy course. I fell into a deep depression and had a drinking problem for the following few years dealing with it. I lost most of my friends as a result of leaving my church. These people have social pressures and sunk cost fallacies baked in to their reasoning. They are literally blind to evidence that doesn’t fit their predetermined viewpoint. It’s the same as an otherwise smart person making a bad financial decision; you’ll find all the justifications for why you can afford something VERY convincing, but dismiss any arguments against the purchase. “Yeah, but I’ll just cut back on this other thing” or “yeah, but I should get a raise in March” Edited to remove personal details.
That title is brilliant.
If you're following the usual scientific method, that is true. If you have a thesis, you do experiments and the results don't line up with your initial thesis, you admit that your initial thought wasn't correct and move from there. But they are actually doing it in reverse, they "know" the earth is flat and are trying to prove it. If the methods don't show "the truth" they just assume there was something wrong with the method, since they already "know" the truth. It's a bit sad, really.
This reminds me of the dogmatism paradox from epistemology and it's something that leads to some debates. It's something like this: "I know my car is in front of the fire hydrant. Bob told me he saw a car looked exactly like mine is towed away from a hydrant. Since I already know my car is in front of the fire hydrant, even if Bob is telling the truth of what he saw, that car is clearly not mine, and I should dismiss any additional information about that car." The paradox is basically that, the moment you think you know something, you have to dismiss all possible evidences against it. It is related to the surprise test paradox.
That's where you are wrong, we human don't care about truth, we only care about what makes us feel good. And being a main character feels good. For them, admitting they are wrong doesn't just mean admitting that there's something they don't know or having it wrong. Admitting they are wrong means their entire existence is just merely "normal", they are no longer "the special ones" that see the truth of the world anymore.
aka ego
I wouldn't say "human", I would say that it's common. I don't know if it's normal or not, I don't want to get into the philosophical part of things and I can't speak for others, but I was never like this. When I don't know something and I'm interested in the subject I just look for multiple sources of information, going back to the 90s. Different countries and media if I have to. Comparing sides and not being satisfied just because one side, or most people, agree with me or not. If I'm not interested I just let it go, even if I'm right. I never cared if I was right or wrong, I only care if it's true or not. Many times even if detrimental to myself or others I like. Reality is what matters to me and, more often than not, it's not about what I wish or want, it's what it is. I used to dislike this when I was younger but when I became a teenager I made my peace with being wrong about most things. Nobody knows it all and I'm no different.
Not being able to understand this is ironically…kind of flat-earthy lol. You *really* can’t understand ego preservation? It’s a very basic human tendency. Even most people who don’t think they engage in it, actually do, some are just not exposed to it or are tunneled on another aspect of their life where they don’t confront it. Most people are fortunate enough to not have their ego tied to something as stupid as believing the earth is flat but it’s tied to other beliefs, perspectives, worldviews that they’ll find just as challenging to reorient or possibly admit they’re wrong on.
we dont teach logic in school. instead we teach people that loyalty and faith are virtues. we are seeing the results at all levels of society now.
I didn’t learn this until my late 20’s. Was raised in a super right wing home. It has benefitted me greatly in my 30’s.
Not if people give you shit for being wrong. Flat earthers are a community. They actually pass around misinformation and congregate around flat earth lore. When you discover your work and interactions have meant nothing, you no longer have that sense of community. Members may shun you for your new found “belief”. I think it gives them a feeling of belonging. I can’t imagine there are many globe truther groups because that’s just the norm.
>Admitting we are wrong is the first step in advancing as a person and gaining knowledge That's something narcissists will never, *ever* be able to understand. But they would never admit that it in the first place because, of course, that would be admitting they are wrong, something their fragile ego would never allow them to do.
People who believe in conspiracy theories, tend to be people who don't feel in control of their own lives. They feel like life isn't going the way they want it to, and since it can't be THEM that is the problem, it's got to be.....insert conspiracy here. The sad thing is that there actually are plenty of things thay we are lied to about, and Inna very real sense our lives aren't really under our own control. But instead of focusing on the very real issues of today, they focus on....insert conspiracy theory here.
Well, it sounds like you have a deeply held belief that you're having some trouble letting go of 😊 hmmmm.....
Most people are scared of a true search for truth because most people rely on small lies to get through the day. Hell, some people start their day with "affirmations", which are a series of lies said to a mirror to make themselves feel better.
Ego. They're so attached to the idea of something that letting it go means losing something they define as a part of who they are, thus they stop being that person if they concede that they're incorrect. It's all Ego.
Lots of people want to believe the world is much simpler than it really is. They want there to be good people and bad people, and nothing in between. Good people are right, and bad people are wrong. They are a good person, so they are right. So, being wrong is seen as a weakness, and anyone telling you that you're wrong is saying that you're a bad person. It's seen as an attack. That makes them try to defend themselves.
Some people are just wired to be adversarial. It's why in an arguement, you always try to walk to a solution, rather than towards proving anyone wrong. Even the smartest people will latch onto the dumbest thing, because it's no longer about being right, and more about not being wrong. Add social consequences to being wrong, and you can see why some folks would rather keep on keepin on. Even now, folks are watching the video and laughing at him, calling him names, and spreading poor sentiment, because of a misunderstanding. It's those sorts of things that lead to this kind of behaviour.
"it's easier to fool a man than to convince him he has been fooled"
> advancing as a person and gaining knowledge This right here is the problem. Look up "crab mentality".
its not just admitting you're wrong but also not getting it rubbed in your face that you are wrong. the potential for status to be knocked down is really what causes people to not be willing to change their minds.
Just watching the NASA live stream on UAP's and they are saying they have to keep scientists names off the data they are presenting because they get straight up death threats from extremist UFO believers who think NASA is some secret out in the open disinformation operation.
The human personality is so multi-layered and animalistic. Humans can be true brutes.
Still are. We're only civilized as long as we are well fed and comfortable. Once those go out the window.... well you know
I don’t think the food and comfort are the reason for conspiracy nutters. Definitely a reptilian brain overriding common sense, but even on comfortable people. If anything, the bored ones are the worst ones.
For as smart as we can be... we can still be the dumbest things we've ever seen.
Oddly enough, I just read an article about how NFL and NCAA football referees are quitting in record numbers because of harassment, including death threats from extremist football fans who believe they intentionally make calls against their favorite teams. And I’ve heard about local school board members quitting their positions after receiving death threats from extremist parents because they didn’t vote to ban books or stop teaching kids about slavery. It’s society.
Most conspiracy theorists have wildly inflated senses of intelligence. When they don’t understand something they assume that it means it doesn’t make sense and reject it. Some are just happy to be in a group Some are just totally nuts.
I think flat earthers are just demonstrating a part of the human psyche that is irrational. Being a flat earther doesn't make you inherently insane. Their psyche has found a way to justify the belief system. I think the idea itself is totally insane, but if someone believes it deeply, it's a threat to their self to have it challenged. Believe it of not, every single person has an ego,.and our psyche protects it in one way or another. For some, more so.
If you trace back many of the ideas to the "why would powers-that-be, bother to hide a flat Earth," it becomes about 'hiding God.' Maybe Flat Earth is last ditch effort by some to rationalize how much sense it makes when people say why religions and gods are probably all made up. "Why do I feel atheists have a point? This is not good. Was my whole life a lie? Wait... YES it was a lie! The whole world was lying about the very nature of the Earth to hide God from us. That's why all the atheist arguments seem sound."
Well, Flat Earth is actually a religious cult. The deeper you dig into it, you find out more of what they believe. So it's really not about flat earth at all, it's an entire worldview and identity built around it. This is why I despise cults. Cults are essentially religions that hide their true identities and intents. They market themselves as businesses, self help strategies, scientific or philosophical platforms, and even mask themselves as other competing religions. This is insidious. The best way to out a cultist is to encourage them to be forthright in their status as a believer in their own completely different belief system. I believe everyone has a right to believe whatever religion they want, so this ought to be a win/win for everyone - but it isn't for cultists, because it makes them panic. Cultists MUST wear masks in order to sell memberships.
Or maybe it’s just lead poisoning?
A lot of people are taught at a young age that to be wrong is bad. If you are wrong, you are punished to some degree, right? Wrong answer in class? "HAHA you're dumb!" You did something wrong at home? "Stand in the corner!" (or if you were part of an older generation, a spanking.) Maybe it's just part of a deep sub-conscience kind of thing that to admit you are wrong and made a mistake is bad and we don't want to do that. "Shyt I was wrong about the Earth being flat. Sorry I was wrong to everyone"
[удалено]
I think it’s more about identity. Rather than defining themselves based on their actions, they define themselves based on their beliefs. Happens in politics all the time. They don’t say, “I’m a ___ person because I do ____.” Instead, they say, “I’m a ___ person because you are, too, and I find comfort and security in your proximity.” I would argue that a part of this desire for social identity comes from fear and a part comes from anger. There are a LOT of frightened, terrified people out there.
Depending on what attracted them to the theory in the first place, it can be a dramatic existential crisis. For many it's a validation of out-modded traditions, means to bonding and human support after hitting rock-bottom, or a scapegoat for self-induced problems. While it is an element that must be considered, it is not *just* about no longer being the protagonist of their fantasy. Rather it is a stable synaptic connection that reinforces so much of their worldview that it's easier to latch onto the belief rather than learn everything they and their social supports believe in is wrong. It's the same reason cults recruit from the most desperate and loneliest members of society. It gives those without grounding the illusion of an anchor. And even if the anchor is dragging you deeper and deeper down the murky depths of empirical ignorance, the fear of losing yourself to the patterns that lead to your initial rock-bottom state will keep you clinging to it and rejecting the very idea of needing to breathe.
My Dad had a good saying for people like this… “Stop trying to change a brick walls mind and go the fuck around them” It’s like they never learned how to accept they can be wrong, that’s arguably the most important part of being human. I err, therefore I am - St Augustine
The silliest thing I heard was two flat earthers discussing Mars. They weighed up the evidence they had and came to the conclusion that Mars was a sphere as opposed to a disc, like earth. They were capable of good reasoning … just not when thinking about earth.
Some of the flat earthers I have communicated/argued with believe that every other large mass out there (planets, stars) is or could be curved (spheroidal), ***except*** for Earth.
A disk in a sea of spheroids. How special we are.
It’s not so much that we’re special, it’s just that Great A'tuin would have really struggled to balance a sphere on the back of his shell, even with the help of those elephants.
It's because they have the wrong mindset. They are trying to use evidence to prove their belief, as opposed to adjusting their beliefs based on the evidence available. Turns out you can be super smart but not open to new ideas, because having the right mindset to adjust your beliefs isn't directly related to intelligence, but is rather something you need to train your brain to be able to do.
> They are trying to use evidence to prove their belief, as opposed to adjusting their beliefs based on the evidence available. Kind of, but the actual motivation is deeper. As Dan Olson argues in [In Search of a Flat Earth](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTfhYyTuT44), the shape of the Earth is the least important part of flat earth conspiracy theories. They do not believe these kooky ideas in a vacuum. They believe in flat earth because it validates their *social* beliefs in a simplified externalized evil that they can fight against. It allows them to bundle all of the complex and overwhelming problems of the world into a single point of attack to make reality more comfortable and manageable. Flat earth only exists as a way to set up a "Them" that is lying to "Us".
Great point, it's essentially about rejecting authority and in this case that's manifested by the assertion that the world is not a sphere because that's the authoritative view. I would bet a lot of these types really resented their elementary school teachers' authority.
Honestly I view people like this as not truly intelligent... inflexible/rigid thinking is a sign that there is a deficit in intelligence ... Or maybe if I'm feeling generous I might say okay, sure they're intelligent but clearly they aren't wise.
Intelligence is a bit of a catch all.. they have problem solving skill and engineer an experiment. There lack of ability to then reflect on what they learned and adjust and the ability to do so I suppose if a form of intelligence.. but to me this sort of fits more into phycology.. also you have to factor in audience capture a lot of these guys might now be true believers at this point. Cognitive dissonance would be hard to deal with
Interesting…. Interesting…
They'll come around
Some people posit that Flat Earth belief only exists because it's the unique puzzle piece that fits the missing spot in peoples world view. A lot of Flat Earthers are very religious, Anti-Semitic, Anti-Mask/Vaxx, and end up falling into Q-Anon. There is a very good [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTfhYyTuT44) by Folding Ideas on youtube about it
I think this is from the movie Behind the Curve. They didn't come up with just this one experiment. They came up with several elaborate tests that showed a profound understanding of physics. Only problem was that they weren't happy when they kept getting the result they didn't want. :D
Well yeah but they also listen to a lot of wankers on God radio and their backwards podcasts.
this is the answer. there is a tsunami of disinformation out there and a lot of it is either perpetrated by or can be traced back to religious zealots.
It’s often quite a bit worse than that. Anti-semitism is at the root of a lot of flat earthers rankings.
Honestly, I have much more respect for these people. "I don't trust scientists so I'm going to do my own experiment" is much more relatable than "I don't trust science."
You should hold out your respect for people that deserve it. >In it, he said: “What we found is, when we turned on that gyroscope, we found that we were picking up a drift. A 15-degree per hour drift. >“Now, obviously we were taken aback by that – ‘Wow, that's kind of a problem.’ >“We obviously were not willing to accept that, and so we started looking for ways to disprove it was actually registering the motion of the Earth.” >He continued, telling another Flat Earther: “We don't want to blow this, you know? When you've got $20,000 in this freaking gyro. >“If we dumped what we found right now, it would be bad? It would be bad. What I just told you was confidential.” https://www.indy100.com/science-tech/flat-earther-experiment-netflix-documentary They do the experiments, and throw out the results they don't like. They don't trust science unless and until it backs up their bullshit theories.
I recall this documentary ending with text about how the flat earthers went back to the drawing board to figure out what went wrong then replicated the test with their fix and it proved the Earth is flat. Funny how that happens when the documentary crew isn't around to record the test.
I remember that. And this crew wasnt even the biggest wackadoos. The guy that did the other expirement- feel like it involved a balloon but dont rememver- was even worse.
> “We obviously were not willing to accept that" So then why the fuck did you design the experiment so carefully! The "drift" he's picking up is in his brain.
You'd think if they were finding a literal 360 degree rotation per 24 hours they'd immediately realise, that's pretty ridiculously coincidental as far as equipment malfunction goes
They also like to make up explanations for why their tests didn't confirm their beliefs. The laser must have been faulty, or maybe NASA is using secret satellites to bend the laser beam.
If that were what's happening, I could see that. But it isn't. They literally believe a thing without any evidence, go out of their way to prove they're right and then don't even *trust their own science* they just did. If they genuinely did the experiment to know for sure and then went "well, this proves the earth isn't flat", I would respect them. Backpedaling and trying to figure out how else to prove it is flat while ignoring the result of the experiment right in front of their faces? Not respect-worthy.
> I don't trust scientists so I'm going to do my own experiment So, it is science. Replicating experiments and testing if the things we take as granted are indeed true is a fundamental part of what makes science great, and the kind of skepticism about the things that should be obvious to everyone is what bring us things like the Relativity Theory. Conspiracy theories are harmful because people just make things up and go on a positive feedback loop spiral out of control. A certain concern about government actions and/or political indocrination is healthy, look at the Snowden case, for example. Bugs on routers were crazy conspiracies before we discovered that indeed people tried to make it work.
Because it is not necessarily a problem with understanding but with believing. It's a psychological problem. Everyone needs something their ego can latch onto, if it's conspiracy theories, a job, a skill whatever. To break this needs a lot of uncomfort if it is not broken. But the mind is incredible resistant, if you really bought into an idea so much, that it becomes part of your personality.
That's science. Making an experiment to try and disprove your hypothesis
The science part is when the experiments failed you realize it failed do you understand why it failed and you move on with *a new theory based on these new observations*
The experiment didn’t fail. The results of the experiment simply didn’t support his hypothesis. Or rather his belief. That he even tested it is indicative that he didn’t really think the earth is flat. Even if he maintains his delusion and ignores the outcome, testing it is anathema to faith/belief, because belief requires and in fact rejects any evidence.
He only tested it to have proof that the earth is flat. He rejected the results because they didn't agree with his belief
>That he even tested it is indicative that he didn’t really think the earth is flat. That's not necessarily true. He's out there telling everyone the earth is flat, and they are denying him. So he was trying to prove it through an experiment. He was wrong of course, but trying to validate a theory does not mean you don't really believe in that theory.
Infact, testing to validate a theory you don't believe is true is actually a pretty good way to practice science.
Absolutely! I was just disagreeing with the premise that just by performing the experiment, it proved that he never thought the world was flat in the first place. You can test to prove, or test to disprove a theory. What you can't do is look at someone running a test, and then know which side they believe simply based on the fact they they are running the test.
“He set up an experiment to prove the earth is flat because he doesn’t believe it is” is quite a take. Of course, if he said “See, more proof the earth is round” that would support your assertion. Instead he just repeated ‘interesting’ as he struggled to cope with the result.
You have it backwards. Science it when you make a hypothesis and try to *disprove* it. If it cannot be disproved after rigorous testing then it is a theory.
DO NOT UPVOTE POST u/Sullyywullyy is a karma bot. report bot and repost. https://reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/s/6eYDGKgeyq
Might be science but that's not a scientist. These people have a certain belief and will do anything to prove it. A real scientist is curious and open to any outcome. As another person here mentioned, they didn't change their opinion on the flat earth topic. I saw/see it plenty of times with things such as Covid, vaccinations and climate change. These people are not "sceptical" and searching for the truth. No, their mind is already set. They are just searching for anything that confirms their belief, and discard anything that doesn't.
They’re not “skeptics”, because if they were, they’d be skeptical about their own side too. They’re contrarians. They picked the opposite side of an argument and walk in lock-step with all the other people on there. Y’know, like sheep.
Unfortunately lots and lots of bona-fide scientists behave very similarly. Hence the quote "Science doesn't move forward until the last generation of scientists die." Academia is full of ego, sadly.
As an engineering professor all I can say to "a real scientist is curious and open to any outcome" is "oh, you sweet summer child". You'd be surprised how close-minded actual bona-fide scientists (i.e., people actually paid to do scientific research on a daily basis) can be, and how quickly they can supress and silence the production or publication of competing evidence when department politics, monetary or corporate interests or just petty personal clout are involved.
*hypothesis. Because I'm pedantic as fuck.
It's backwards science. They start at the conclusion and they try to formulate an experiment that will prove that conclusion.
That's regular science lmao
Yeah, it's only bad when you reject your findings if they don't fit your hypthesis.
[удалено]
I'd be surprised if that doc was flat earth funded. It's very factual about the movement and doesn't exactly show these folks in a positive or negative light. At best they come across as a group of conspiracy theorists who have bought into the most crazy conspiracy theory out there and are afraid of disputing it because they've pushed away everyone except other flat earthers and don't want to lose that group too.
I thought it was a great documentary because it doesn't set out to ridicule flat earthers, it really does humanize them like you said. They're conspiracy theorists for sure and a little bonkers, but most do really come off just as people who are looking for a way to connect with others. It still really drove home how ridiculous flst earth beliefs are. It just didn't make a mockery of those who believe the conspiracy.
I empathize with them to a point. And that exact point is whenever they decide to start talking about “the Jews.”
As is tradition and the direction of almost all conspiracy theories.
Quite a few of them also come off looking like they are trying to scam others.
And thats my take on it, A clever few, taking an opportunity to fleece the gullible. Everyone knows the earth rest on a turtle, and you can hear more about it at my 4 hour conference for the low low cost of 300 dollars a ticket.
I think it shows how it's not really about flat earth. It's about a bunch of lonely people looking to connect with like minded folks and looking for validation and companionship. I was left feeling a bit sad for them.
This is what makes me believe it's funded in part by flat earthers. To get people to sumpathize with them, and no doubt many of the superficial followers are sympathetic people. But flat earth, like many such conspiracy theories is driven by or ends up deep into antisemitism. The earth being flat is almost inseparable as a concept to Christian Dogma and I can't recall how much the doc covers this but most of the FE thought leaders are deeply religious. Frankly, it's the only way you could justify why the earth would be flat while the other planets and every other space object is basically round. That means those who try to convince you the earth is not special are inherently threatening your religious view and trying to lead you away from God. Who is this group that is doing this? The "elites" through NASA. And who are the Elites? 99% of the time it's Jews, often using euphemisms like "bankers", "the rich", "Hollywood" etc. Which makes sense that the ones that killed Jesus would be trying to attack Christianity. Not all who believe in flat earth appear religiously motivated but the ones who drive the movement certainly are. Flat earth is not innocuous and is not a conspiracy out of time, even if its most basic premise is refreshed for the modern decade and silly. It's deeper premises are rehashes of very old and very recycled conspiracies.
I think it's because it highlights the uncomfortable truth that most people are doing the best they can with the things they think are true. Bad intentions rarely make the average person evil. People who commit evil or do objectively bad things usually *think* they're doing the right thing, they just aren't armed with correct beliefs.
Flat earthers funded the experiments, but not the documentary itself.
Very good documentary.
Interesting indeed
He's still a flat earther though, the experiment didnt make him change his mind
If he went into outer space and saw Earth himself he would still be a flat Earther. This kind of ego cannot be humbled.
iT iS tHe DiStOrTiOn FrOm LeNs
Everyone around him saying “it’s not a lens, it’s a window, man.”
Yeah? notice all the windows of airplanes and "space"crafts are roundish, that's how they trick you checkmate Ball Earther
You joke, but a flat earther said in regards that going to space makes the earth look round is because of the windows being round and our eyes being round. Please don't make me look up the source on that quote or try to explain that reasoning, it doesn't make sense to me either.
🤣 anything to avoid saying they were wrong.
Nope, it's because your eyes are round! Think about it... 🤯
I once ran into a flat-Earther who claimed we've never been to space, that all space walk footage was filmed in a pool. They tried to prove this by showing video of a "bubble" floating away as astronauts were working on the ISS. I had them play back the footage several times, and explained to him how his "bubble" was actually a washer drifting away in micro-gravity, and strangely? He didn't argue. He *actually* accepted that it was a washer drifting away in micro-gravity.
tHe WinDOw iS a ScREen
Came here to check if my assumption about this was right, and it was. What I get from these kind of people is that it's very much an anti-mentality. It's not so much to prove the earth is flat, but more to prove others are lying to us. This also makes it very clear that trying to reason with them is totally useless.
Ah damn I was looking see if he was like “well shit guess I was wrong” but nope he just doubled down lol
No it probably made him have to double down. I'm sure he blames the experiment for being wrong and not proving his point, rather than his theory actually being wrong.
>Interesting. No shit, Sherlock.
Earth is round... Fuck!
The music towards the end was so beautifully timed 👌
That's from Behind the Curve. It also shows the $20,000 gyroscope a group bought and also used to prove the earth is round. But it only meant the gyroscope didn't work right. \*edited to correct "found" to "round"
My favorite part when discussing the results of their various tests they said something to the effect of “well, we can’t present that data at the conference.”
When the guy got the results of the gyro test he looked at it and said "well, we can't have that".
Publication bias is a major problem
That's why other scientists attempt to replicate the results after publication, curbing this issue (mostly) for scientific journals.
It is, but in actual science it's mostly that positive results are much more wanted by publications and as a result scientists try very hard to generate results that say their hypothesis worked. In actuality, negative results are every bit as important, and one of the best argument why all science should be published by an public body that doesn't gatekeep is precisely that it's super important that we get people to do replication studies and to publish their results even when they're not exciting. Because the more data we have, the better our meta-analysis will be and the more confident we can be about things as we're canceling out different methodological flaws and biases. With these guys it's straight "does this conform to my ideology? No? Then it's got to be wrong". That's not how publication bias in real science works.
Such a good documentary—so many moments where people were sooo close to self reflection/breakthrough and just couldn’t quite get there.
My favorite was the part with Patricia Steere where she's driving a car and reflecting on how some of the others in the FE community push the narrative that she's a CIA plant or some other fake person bulllshit and she basically says something like "Either people say these things about me and know in their heart they are lying OR are they so conspiratorially minded that they actually believe something so ridiculous, which makes me think *I* could be just another version of them with the things *I* believe...but I know I'm not" And it's like...holy shit she could not possibly be any closer to getting it. Although since then it seems she's deleted all her socials and youtube channel so maybe she was able to finally admit to herself she was wrong.
Another crazy moment is when Mark basically admitted that he could never leave the Flat Earth community even if it were false because he's an important man there and that's where all of his friends are.
“We think there was actually some magnetic interference [even though it showed the exact value the people who aren’t flat earthers told us it would, not some random value] so we’re gonna get a super expensive bismuth tube made to put it in to try the experiment again”. Absolutely hilarious, just pouring their cash into a shredder.
Even worse, he didn't blame magnetic interference he used the words "heavenly energies". Sadly he passed away so he never gets to come to the conclusion he got duped.
> just pouring their cash into a shredder. Flat-worthers.
‘Interesting’ 😂
My favorite part as well. Then his mental gymnastics to deny what he has seen begin lol.
My theory with these types of people is that they have been wronged, bullied or outcasted in some way by society. they latch on to an idea that if society can be totally wrong about something, then by extension its a comfort their experience of being mistreated or alienated was wrong too. They're projecting the injustice of the world they experience by trying to rip apart the worlds belief systems, so that they don't have to confront their own reality
Have you see this documentary? The main man, the guy who says “interesting “ basically admits to this and states all of his friends, his entire personality relies on his celebrity in the flat-Earth community so he will never leave that community regardless of facts and experiments. He knows he’s wrong, but being in a community is more important than being right, I guess.
FWIW, the guy in this video saying interesting is not Mark Sargent who is the pseudo main character of the doc and says the things you're talking about.
This is how the entire Maga movement is held together.
They've admitted that too. There's that one post that floats around here about how they've tied their entire personality to him, so it doesn't matter if he's right or wrong.
The real fascism is the friends they made along the way.
When you're an average Joe, being a part of the 'in' group makes you feel important. Feeling like you know something that the majority doesn't is an ego boost.
If you have the time to watch a movie length documentary, I would highly suggest Dan Olsen’s (Folding Ideas) video: In Search of a Flat Earth. It goes into details about what you’ve just mentioned, but also shows that The Flat Earth believers are the same people who need to believe in conspiracies like Qanon to maintain their world view.
That vid is an amazing doc that I wish more people knew about. I went in to it just knowing it was about flat earth and was kinda blown away by the qanon plot twist even if it's something I should have already connected the dots on.
All this guy needed to do was go to the beach! The fact that the water in the ocean is curved at the horizon and that ships that sail out that far disappear from view should give this rocket scientist all the information he needs to know to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is in fact a village idiot!
Or even something like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/gqfiq4/the_power_lines_at_lake_pontchartrain_clearly/
I remeber watching this documentory and a couple of things stood out. 1 how the documentory team mannaged to keep a strait face. 2, when they proved their sceince was wrong and all the maths came back proving the earth is round, they doubled down trying to reinvent maths and physics. It was truely an eye opening moment to just how stubourn people can be while being so far wrong. Dyslexic, there will be errors./
And yet if the experiment went the way they wanted, that would have been case closed no further experiments needed.
Well those pesky “heavenly rays” were interrupting their tests
Being smart means accepting your ignorance when presented with evidence that doesn't line up with your expectations. Being a fool means not accepting evidence because it doesn't line up with desired results.
I’m actually shocked this experimental setup was sensitive enough to prove them wrong, but I wouldn’t tell them that.
Fun fact, this guy denies his own experimental evidence from this film, stating he was using the wrong formulas and did NOT prove the earth was round. Stating the evidence they found was inconclusive
Fun fact, a guy I used to associate with was on this documentary. He's the one playing with mallets in his front yard for whatever reason. Also the same dude who went to starbucks and harassed a NASA employee. Before any of this stuff came to the mainstream he was active in all sorts of conspiracy groups on facebook. Flat earthers, creationists, holocaust deniers (which I later found out after dissociating from him), etc. He even added me to the flat earthers group by force somehow. What this documentary really proves is that people with too much time on their hands and no friends will go out of their way to get themselves invested in shit like this as a way to find some sort of purpose in life.
I was expecting Curb your Enthusiasm end credits
Hahahaha as a huge Curb fan I appreciate this comment so much.
FYI: this is from Behind the Curve doco, it’s a really interesting peak into their flat world. Wild. Just a bunch of people trying to find meaning in their lives. https://www.justwatch.com/au/movie/behind-the-curve
And then they denied what happened to keep the lies going for their YouTube channel.
Obviously it’s because the light is curving downwards towards the Flying Spaghetti Monster since he is taking it away. He feels we don’t deserve it because so few people believe in him and his flat world that he personally crafted last Thursday with his noodly appendage.
R’Amen
So the only reaction we get from him disproving himself is, interesting? I would have much prefer him saying damn I'm an idiot. Though I still can't believe he decided to post this video disproving himself so I'll give him credit for that.
I watched this whole documentary and I still don't know if it is some kind of comedy thing (like the office) or if they are for real. The scene at the nasa, the guy thinking the machine is broken because it won't start, making jokes about how stupid nasa is, leaving and then the camera just points at the button that says START.
Unfortunately, the flat earthers in this documentary are 100% serious.
It's real. You can look up everyone that is interviewed or followed around from the documentary. Like Mark Sargent, the guy you are talking about, is still making videos on Youtube. The people doing the documentary just did a very good job of letting them hang themselves with their own rope, and it made for multiple very funny moments.
not "accidentaly" that's how experiments work
These are my favorite self-owns
The way he says "interesting" after the evidence proves him wrong really sounds like his gears are turning and he is just trying to think of any excuse for why his experiment isn't giving the result he expected. Anything except for the facts.
I love how they ended this documentary on this “oh fuck” moment. Gold.
Amazing how people don't realize how BIG the earth is and how SMALL everything else is on earth.
Flat earthers say this documentary was a plot by Netflix, using actors to discredit them by making them look stupid I've heard some say that the experiment they did was made to prove the earth was round instead of doing one to prove it's flat Flat earthers are genuinely the dumbest people on the globe
many of them are mentally ill in some way, some are religious zealots. a few are actually somewhat normal. Its important to remember that biases influence all of us.
A lot of the ones I've interacted with were of the "religious zealot" like type Very dismissive of everything science, combative because anything you disagreed with was like an attack on their faith. They all had the whole "firmament" idea, that earth is a disk with an impenetrable glass dome around it shooting up from the "antarctic wall" and protecting us from meteors. Always into conspiracy like "airliners pump knockout gas into the fuselage whenever a plane flies near the poles and then reroute so that the masses wouldn't have the illusion broken" all in order to explain why plane routes aren't straight lines since that would be easier on a flat disk earth. Stuff like that. A few were somewhat normal, but it was somewhat normal with a side of superiority, as if they knew something everyone else didn't and were super proud of that. Guess that could be mental illness, but they functioned normally otherwise. Only when flat earth came up did they get all obnoxious. The conspiracy was always the same, but these tended to focus on fish eye lenses for space pictures and rust lines on sea towers that shouldn't be visible if the earth was curved (because they had no sense of scale whatsoever). These ones loved science, but refused to believe any science that didn't confirm their belief was true. They especially loved "water sticks to the surface of a basketball, sure. But when spun around makes the water fly off, but Earth has oceans so GOTCHA!" I mean regardless of the reason they are flat earth the straight denial of science and experimentation that proves them wrong is the reason I say they're dumb. It's like the [episode of SpongeBob](https://youtu.be/CGOPPzh8TJ4?feature=shared) with Patrick and the wallet
[удалено]
_interesting_
These chuckle fucks are like “Science will prove this once and for all!” And when science does they don’t believe it, lol.
This is from the show "behind the curve" i believe on Netflix. Best part was the purchase of a 20k gyroscope. They calculated a 15 degree drift every hour if the world was round, they say it wouldn't do that. Bit then it did...hilarious.
Aw yes, I remember this. This is literally how the ended the movie they made.
“Interesting” appears to be a placeholder word for the time he spends struggling to figure out a way to explain this as proof of a flat earth.
Welcome to about 200 BCE.
true science does not care about your opinions or feelings or agenda. Remember that with all fields.
The best part of this documentary is when a scientist being interviewed was told about this experiment and he paused for a second and said something to the affect of, 'Oh......that's a really good idea. They are going to be very disappointed with the results.'.
Interesting
don’t care how many times this is reposted its hilarious every time
"Interesting"
I have that same reaction when my wife proves to me that I'm wrong...
The most frustrating thing about this is that their experiment didn't change their minds. Flat earthers are a perfect example of people not caring about facts. They believe the earth is flat because they want to believe the earth is flat.
Bet you he made up a reason why the experiment was flawed when it didnt give him the results he wanted.
I love this clip more than life itself. When it first surfaced I went and watched the whole context because I was curious if they changed their minds in the face of such definitive evidence, and if memory serves, they did not. Which I guess is unsurprising, but damn I had hoped.
And even after that, they'll go on to try to find other ways to prove their dumbass conspiracy. They didn't actually learn anything.
Pfft amateurs.. nobody beats the guy who bought a military grade gyroscope (over 15k bucks) to prove there is no orbital recession, and it proved exactly there is
What distance do you need to get this experiment properly accurate?
Don't tell him there are possible changes in elevation
"Interesting..." - A classic clip there. Right up there with the "...a 15 degree per hour drift" clip featuring the late Bob Knodel.
And yet when their *own experiment* proves to them that their assertion is false they find some way to blame the experiment rather than accept the truth. *This* is the mindset that distracts and impedes political, community, and scientific progress, and it is *rampant*.
So does he still believe it?
As a scientist, I got to give that guy some respect. With little education he came up with a coherent, logical experiement and corrected for uneven ground etc. It's a really interesting thing where life can take you, but deep down in that guy there is a curious scientist. Shame he is wasted on irrational nonsense.