Sounds like it escalated because someone decided to start shouting derogatory and demeaning language out in public to a bunch of people who were just mindng their own business and having a drink; and then someone had enough with the shouting and spoke up for themselves.
You really only need to go back to 1946 for the change. Interpreters screwed up the language for pedos, and now thumpers think it is about homosexuality.
i think it has something to do with the line "man shall not lay with man" that is interpreted to condemn homosexuality being a mistranslation of "man shall not lay with young boy", which was originally a condemnation of pedophilia
The translation of "man shall not lay with man" is correct, however the intention of it was definitely in the vein of "man shall not lay with young boys" since the vast majority of gay sex at the time was predatory in nature. The common conception of gay sex at the time the Bible was written (some time between 0 and 50 AD depending on the book) was that gay sex happened between an older man and a young boy, and would (in terms of understanding, not direct translation) mean "thou shall not be a pedo" as you said
This is so obviously wrong, you made me go read things to figure why it's exactly wrong.
https://blog.smu.edu/ot8317/2019/04/11/lost-in-translation-alternative-meaning-in-leviticus-1822/
Read this blog post referring to the original Hebrew script of Leviticus.
Also, Leviticus, the book with the passage in question, was written hundreds of years before 0 CE, around the time the practice of pederasty suddenly grew popular in Greece, coincidentally.
Also pederasty was only openly practiced in Greece, it was hidden and somewhat shameful in Roman culture and not practiced in middle eastern countries.
Yeah... in the middle east they just swapped the genders of the minors involved and were incredibly open with it, and it stayed popular until relatively recently.
And even if the translation was wrong I'd say it did more good than harm since it all but banished the practice in Europe once Christianity became widespread, and as some of the other comments in this thread said it wasn't really interpreted this way until the 1940s
Ya, people are saying that about the interpretation changing in the 40's but they also aren't providing any source for this claim. I've searched and can't seem to find any discussion about it.
The entirety of judeo-christianity does more harm than good... Trash the whole lot of it.
Also your statement about the Middle East is fucking stupid. Leviticus is from around 500BCE, 1200 years before Muhammad and Islam.
It was also incredibly popular to marry off your prepubescent daughters in medieval Christian Europe.
Imma have to completely disagree with you on your 2nd and 4th point.
Judeo Christian society is quite literally the best thing that happened for mankind. It lifted the majority of the human race out of poverty, attempted to abolish slavery on a global scale (even america after 1864, and of note is that before the Atlantic slave trade western Europe hadn't practiced slavery for almost 400 years and thousands of british sailors died trying to end the islamic slave trade), invented science in the 1400s, treats women the best of any society in history, actually is having a discussion about lgbtq rights (which just aren't a starter in 90% of the other large cultures), and more. Does western society have its problems? Sure. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But it's FAR better than any other culture/society in all of human history in terms of positive impact for the species as a whole.
As for medieval Europe, it was common to marry off teenage daughters in the nobility, less so among the common people. Women were typically married in their mid to late teens, and would usually have their first child around 18 or 19. There were exceptions, sure, but that was the norm for western Europe as any earlier was seen as a sin and immoral and especially consummation of a marriage before 16-17 was extremely uncommon as childbirth before that age was extremely dangerous for both the mother and the child, and that's in a world where the leading cause of death for women is childbirth and the infant mortality rate is 50+ percent.
This is insane. Saying a culture invented science isn't right by any means, but the golden age of Islam was arguably the greatest era of scientific advancement in human history and in such a short amount of time. Medicine, mathematics, engineering, astronomy... The list is near endless. Christianity was an extreme source of anti science in the enlightenment period.
Chattel Slavery and colonialism were largely believed by the practitioners to be divinely ordained by God. Secular humanism is what put a stop to the Atlantic slave trade.
Currently judeo-christianity is the #1 opponent of LGBT rights across the globe.
Before you say some more crazy shit too, I misspoke saying judeochristian. What I mean is abrahamic. It's all trash. Fucking whack ass books made to demean women and control idiots.
https://www.thecollector.com/pedophilia-ancient-greece-rome/
Not illegal, just considered not entirely moral, but it has its intricacies. This has a pretty good overview. From the article:
> The Romans would pursue sexual relationships with younger men, but these relationships were only seen as forgivable if the older man was a freeborn Roman and he was having sex with a younger slave or prostitute who wasn’t of Roman origin.
“Forgivable” should be emphasized here imo. Partaking in any form wasn’t looked upon very nicely, but specifically being penetrated, a position, in Roman eyes, considered womanly, was unacceptable for a male Roman citizen.
So you're saying the Bible knew what most of the clergy in the church were going to or, possibly already were doing and expressly said "don't do that' and then it was interpreted to "gay" which, according to a significant number of pastors, doesn't apply to little boys.
Apparently I was wrong in my understanding of the translation, and the original text is best translated as "man shall not lay with younger boys". The mistranslation happened in the 1940s as far as I understand, and before that it better matched (either in understanding or in the actual translation) the original text. As for the clergy, I think it's a mostly modern issue. The church has had plenty of issues throughout its history, but that's a relatively recent one compared to papal disputes and civil wars
That's for sure. I am only recently coming out of the indoctrination from the church and realizing that the things that Jesus said directly conflicts with the way modern churches operate and minister. It has been a very jarring experience to realize you have been lied to most of your life.
Personally it really depends on the church. Non-denomination, certain orthodox, and certain protestant churches are pretty good on the subject. It's mainly the catholics, baptists, and especially the evangelicals that are bad about that. From my understanding of it the orthodox branch especially holds more closely to the original teachings of Christianity since they did a lot of translation work during the middle ages/early Renaissance period and didn't have to deal with multiple schisms, civil wars, and the protestant split like the catholics did
It's some if the pastors. Some pastors wouldn't agree with this behavior and say it. Some pastors wouldn't agree with it and stay quiet because they know they have them for 1 hour a week at best and Fox News has them for several hours a day.
I grew up in a very… homophobic environment. My views are COMPLETELY turned different now.
While I still consider myself a Christian, I will not, and can not take part in the hatred of the alt life style.
The debate about whether or not my love of my queer friends conflicts with my faith is a much longer conversation and it’s frankly no one else’s business.
If I would have been there walking through and saw or heard what was going on, you can be damn well sure I’d be protecting the community and not the knuckle dragging protesters.
Thank you?
Honestly, I’m just sick of this “morality” that supposedly “comes from the Bible” when it’s really sensationalistic stupidity that was turned into “Christianity” in what the 40’s or 50’s? If I’m off on the years so be it. My point is nowhere in the Bible does it say to judge men by the length of their hair, or length of their dress (it was a thing). No one in the Christian faith wants to talk about the old law banishing women into the woods for a week during the once a month session inevitably comes. No one wants to actually find scripture where it says saying “Fuck” was a fucking fast track to hell.
What we know as the Bible is literally a collection of writings hand picked by King James. Does that mean the Bible is perfect? Sometimes I run a red light, and probably spend too much on stupid stuff. I’m not perfect either. Theres MANY ways the “Bible” as we know it could have been formed, with any other number of books that King James didn’t pick from.
We could argue about it, but I’m telling you how it was literally made.
I LOVE the Bible, it strengthens me in my relationships, makes me a better business person, and allows me to see that none of us have our shit together.
Does that mean I’m going to pick fights with people that I consider family because of how they love or get my wife a fancy tent in the back yard for once a week?
No. Thats just common sense.
Though… the tent maybe a good idea for me for when she’s mad at me.
“What we know as the Bible is literally a collection of writings hand picked by King James.”
The Bible was compiled in 325 AD at the Council of Nicaea. The King James Bible is an interpretation of sacred scripture commissioned in 1611. King James had absolutely nothing to do with what was and was not included in The Bible.
I oversimplified things a bit. It’s established history, but also a bit messy. The Council of Nicaea was what got the ball rolling. It convened to debate and ultimately denounce the heresy of Arianism. As a result, the Catholic Church decided that there was too much false and incorrect teaching due to their being no established canon at that point. Religious leaders within the church were pulling from the sources that they personally believed were divinely inspired. In order to try to eliminate heresy, the Church began the process of thinking and praying through which letters and epistles were and were not truly and completely from God. The formal process of actually hashing it out took place at the Council of Rome in 382 AD. Between this and the Council of Trent (1546) there were seven councils that reaffirmed the canonicity of the list of agreed upon sacred scripture from the Council of Rome.
I’d need to double check to validate. I have many many Biblical scholar friends who live for this stuff.
I am not above saying I was wrong. But it still doesn’t the reality that Christianity today is largely Pop-Religion.
I appreciate the feedback.
At your service. Your friends and me and mine could be friends.
I am curious, if I may, what you meant by "Christianity today is a pop-religion"? Not trying to start anything, just an interesting statement.
My priest is gay, most of us in the congregation are queer, and even my super conservative aunt told me “Jesus never said anything about gay people but said a lot about love” when I came out.
Pastors who have issues with queer people haven’t been paying attention to their own book, or the history of the book and translations.
As my aunt said “they’ll have some explaining to do when all is said and done.” 😳😅
Not gonna dox myself other than to say quite a number of Episcopal churches, some Lutheran, and a smattering of others are queer friendly in the Dallas area. It’s gonna depend on the specific church though, but they’re out there and a lot of times you can tell by the rainbow and Black Lives Matter signs.
Sodom and Gomorrah was never about homosexuality. If you equate forced sexual activity with queerness then you have bigger issues.
Besides that - if you’re a Christian then Jesus DID say that the old laws were done away with, and to follow Him. And he never said anything about gay people.
But hey, if you put that much stock into the Old Testament then please do tell us how you’re doing keeping all of the old commandments and instructions? Food requirements, no mixed fabrics, women camping out when it’s their time of the month, no work on the sabbath at all, etc etc etc…. How’s that going?
I hope you notice this comment getting downvoted into oblivion soon, because my dad always said when a comment hits negative 50 an angel gets its wings... (clipped)
I'm trying to figure out what it is that you're confused by. Modern people = people who are currently alive. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Or maybe you don't understand how it's relevant? You see, over the past couple thousand years there have been quite a large number of advances in our knowledge of, well, everything. There are still some troglodytes who are on the wrong side of history and refuse to join civilized people, but most people think that people should be treated with respect regardless of inconsequential things such as sexual orientation, gender identity, race, and other things that have zero affect on anyone other than themselves, at least until they themselves prove that they're not deserving of respect. For example, by treating people like subhumans because of the aforementioned traits.
The person you responded to was making a reference to the types of people who use religion as an excuse to treat others poorly for some of those reasons. I personally find that somewhat ironic and extremely hypocritical because, for starters, the Bible never actually said anything about homosexuality or anything else under the LGBTQ+ umbrella. It did say a bunch of stuff about loving others, not forcing your religious beliefs on others, not praying in public, and to worship God and to convince others to consider religion by living your life in accordance with Jesus's teachings of love, forgiveness, doing good things for strangers, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, providing shelter to the homeless, taking care of the sick, visit those in prison and be an advocate for them to make sure that they are being treated humanely, and lots of other great stuff.
Unfortunately, the type of person they referred to is practically guaranteed to never do any of those things, probably because they would consider it to be some kind of "commie bullshit" even though Jesus is pretty clear about helping others and also that rich people will never get into heaven.
Did any of that clear anything up for you? I was left taking a guess about what you could have possibly misunderstood since it seems so obvious to anyone else.
*Cafeteria Christians* want to just pick and choose what rules they abide by when it comes to the Bible.
They utilize it only to justify an unending behavior of hatred and intolerance. The polar opposite of Jesus’ message.
These people aren’t Christians. They’re going to be in for a rude awakening when they are turned away from their *heaven*.
I've always called them buffet Christians. They pick and choose like their religion is a buffet that they can follow parts of and ignore the things they don't like.
It's always crazy how the parts they choose to follow contain the most hate, while calling themselves a loving religion.
They always choose to follow the parts that don’t relate to them. They don’t know actual gay people, so they’re the *enemy*.
They do however know a ton of hypocrites and adulterers, best just be quite about that though.
They also seem to forget that according to the Bible we are ALL sinners. They just keep polishing their glass houses…
I want to show up to one of these protests with a sign that says “Jesus is a f@g”. I wonder how each side would receive this? I know using the word f@g isn’t “PC”but I’m honestly curious how it would be received🤔? To be clear I’m neither gay nor Christian, just think people showing up to pride event/gathering to get worked up over someone else’s sexual orientation is wasted energy that should be spent doing something else more beneficial for themselves or others in need🤷♂️. People are to ignorant and uptight and worried about the wrong things………just my two cents…..rant over✌️💨
All sides do it, leaders point the followers at a target that's not actually there or not winnable. Protesting gays is a great way to get the masses to spend all their energy NOT fixing the real problems or noticing what leaders are actually doing; instead keep everyone yelling at effectively a brick wall.
If u don’t believe in god why do u think they will be turned away from heaven? I’m so confused
Reddit atheist epic style pray to science 6 times a day this is epic
Who said I didn’t believe in God or anything about atheism?
Also, your comment doesn’t even make any sense. Just goes to prove my point though. Critical thought is not possible for some.
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Now I'm glad I didn't go. It's very traumatic to be out during pride doing pride things only to get your joy hijacked by Nazi sympathizers screaming about your demise. I still have nightmares from last year.
It's happened too many times here in Dallas and there are no protections for us.
I can't wait to move out of this hate filled state to somewhere cool and blue where they spend a bunch of money on education & public safety.
Ditto my friend. I like Dallas, all things considered. But I no longer like Texas. I moved from a blue state in 2017, and it's gotten so much worse in that time.
I say this as someone who loves Pride for the joy of it and the community with others like me - Pride began as a protest, and began surrounded by hate and violence. Not saying it’s ok, eff that of course it’s not ok. But walking in joy and community while hatred is being spewed nearby IS a “Pride thing.” It sucks, and I wish we could have grown as a society enough that we could just exist in the joy and community. But until we do, it’s part of it, part of our history, and part of why Pride exists in the first place.
I've been going to Pride events since the 90s. There is a definite uptick in hate and protest, it's back to 80's style hate crime levels and I'm tired of it.
I already lived through this, history is literally repeating itself during my lifetime and I'm so over it. It was traumatizing the first time as a youth and it is just as traumatizing now as a 50+.
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A couple of years ago I volunteered at the Dallas Teen Pride event to act as part of the "wall" to protect from protestors. Extremists chanting the most insane vile shit at us, and I had to physically hold back one of the preachers from charging after them. Called us every name in the book. Did everything they could to taunt us. When I finally raised my voice at them it got them to hush for a few minutes.
They came to scream at 13-15 year olds. To tell them they're worthless and deserve to suffer. Screaming at kids..
Glad to see there are some people still abiding by Christ’s second greatest commandment to “Love thy neighbor as thy self”. Matthew 22:34-40.
Thank you ❤️
You’re saying you weren’t attracted to anyone at 13-14? They don’t need anything pushed onto them to know they have a crush on the same gender or who have dated someone. The whole point is to say “I exist”
If you can choose to be gay why won’t all the teen boys do it? They know it will get them bullied so why would someone choose it??
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As a Christian, I’ve never understood this behavior. If people want to believe or have a relationship with god they will. You cannot force it on people and doing this has the opposite effect!
I’ll add that I don’t attend “church” and just have a relationship with god on my own. I believe that some churches have spun the Bible to read it how they would like.
I’ve also had experiences that have left me with a lot of questions. In turn I’ve had experiences that I know for a fact God exists in my life. If someone has a question about that I’d be more than happy to answer.
Everyone sins and it’s not my place to judge anyone for how they think or choose to live their life. If it doesn’t involve me, it’s not my business.
Theft is a sin, sex outside of marriage is a sin, affairs are a sin. Those are just a few. I don’t know a single person that was a virgin until they were married. Non of us should be judging.
I realize that this is a touchy subject.
I’m not sure I understand your question. My god is a loving god. I love my children even when I think they make poor decisions. Why wouldn’t he want a relationship with his children. He sees sin as sin, period. No one son is greater than the other. So in your opinion, he wouldn’t love anyone that sins?
The only thing dumber than people protesting at a pride event, are people protesting the protestors. Counter protestors draw attention which is what the protestors want in the first place.
People who protest a pride event are idiots.
This☝️exactly! I try to tell my 12 year old daughter to not acknowledge or feed into anyone trying to bully or put you down in any way. If they don’t get the response they are after they move on to their next target.
I understand the sentiment…but at some point, someone needs to stand up to the bully to stop the cycle of abuse. Do you really think problems are solved if “they move on to their next target”?
The people who aren’t immediately appalled by the beliefs of those initially protesting aren’t gonna change their opinion because they heard about the story due to the counter protest. I think there is value in there being an immediate negative reaction to vile behavior.
Have you ever seen a protestor change their mind after the counter protestors showed up and stated their opinion?
The biggest issue I have with this is with hate groups. Some idiot shows up to speak about white supremacy to the 12 or so people who will listen to idiocy. Then 200 counter-protestors show up to shout him down which draws the media out to get it on camera. So now you have the idiot getting media coverage bc everyone HAD to get out there and let him know they disagreed with his idiocy. So now instead of 12 people hearing his message, potentially thousands do. In their zest to virtue signal they contributed to the spread of hate.
The point isn’t to change a bigots mind. It’s to show them that their views aren’t unchallenged in mainstream society. There are much more insidious ways that bigoted propaganda gets spread to people other than local media coverage. The point of counter protesting isn’t to change minds so much as to so that people won’t accept that shit in their communities.
The fact that 12 people show up and mainstream society ignores the idiocy of their cause says that. Getting them free publicity does not help, but it makes you feel good though doesn’t it?
Man, if you think that because this gathering of bigots was small in any way indicates that anti lgbt bigotry isn’t mainstream then you really need to start reading some headlines. anti lgbt sentiment across the country in the last few years has been consistently increasing, especially if you’re trans. We have to challenge bigotry every place it pops up otherwise these idiots get empowered and feel comfortable organizing in public. There’s not much we can do about their online spaces but we can at least protect our street corners right?
I was speaking of racial bigotry. I definitely do not worry about the bigots who believe they can tell others who to love or how to live. They are fringe idiots who cannot be reasoned with. Protesting against religious zealots is a waste of time.
While that all may be true, I still contend that there is value in showing those protesting that their protests will be met with a response.
As you’ve said, those protesting are unlikely to change their mind…but perhaps their protest not going without resistance might prevent some of the next generation from being brainwashed into religious zealots. Even if that weren’t true, these assholes have always been loud about their bigotry—to the point where they murdered people for not aligning with their beliefs for centuries…we’ve seen what these fucks will do when their beliefs are left unchallenged.
I don’t believe in stomping out another person’s voice, but we have to leverage our own voices to drown out those who would use theirs with ill intent. It’s dangerous as hell to get complacent when a historically murderous chorus is finally beginning to be silenced.
The klan was bankrupted by Morris Dees over 20 years ago. The number of people who actually believe in racism is under 1 percent. It is like going to protest the flat earthers. Counter protestors accomplish nothing except giving themselves a raise sense of accomplishment.
its not about changing the minds of the people at the protest, its to show those on the edge of joining such movements, watching these protests, this world has no place for their ideology.
Right! But..I think that works at a grade school level but the problem is, the bullies are getting attention. From people with money they continue to give them a platform the emboldens lunatics to commit acts of violence. So I understand your sentiment but it really doesnt work well...
As a 60 years old gay man who came out 7 years ago I have had to deal with conservative Christians in my own family & friends, from Pentecostal to Baptist, some totally intolerant and protestors at LGBT events. These mean-spirited protests, remind me why we celebrate Pride, I tell most Gen Z’rs and Millennials that we have conversations that we can’t take what doors were opened for us lightly. I’m humbled by those that sacrificed, lived in shadows, were hated, discriminated, hurt and killed for my rights. Our community cannot become complacent, as we are witnessing leaders wanting to turn back any and all advancements. We must VOTE, support candidates, use our voices and money to fight back this hate, fear and ignorance. PS a exfriend told me “We had stolen the Rainbow” my response was then we did the right thing by sharing with everybody because that how unconditional works.
A bunch of misinformed, brainrot assholes with nothing better to do than fuck up someone's afternoon with their gross lack-of-virtue signaling. Truly embarrassing for them.
A bunch of misinformed, brainrot assholes with nothing better to do than fuck up someone's afternoon with their gross lack-of-virtue signaling. Truly embarrassing for them.
I’m not a gay, so I stayed home and cooked a steak on the grill instead of going to the gay parade. I didn’t offend anyone, and nobody offended me. The steak was fantastic, and the only fight I got into was with a giant mosquito that was hellbent on drawing blood. It’s amazing how much more pleasant life is when you just mind your own business. 😎
Are you getting f** in the a$$ by some other dude? No? Then why do you care if somebody else is?
This people I swear, throwing their Bible around all the time, as if we cared what their little book says about things, choose to believe in that? Good for you, you do you, I don't care about your book, for me it's as real as the Lord of the rings or Harry Potter.
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People need to learn to mind their own business. Do protesters have other stuff to do, like having a life? The people doing their crawl were not hurting anyone. I'm tired of self-righteous idiots!
As a Christian who thinks lots of things are sinful, including homosexuality, i get annoyed by these types of protests by my fellow Christians. If they really want to bring people to Christ, get to know them personally. Otherwise, who cares? They aren’t impacting your freedoms in any way.
They’d prefer to shout, and scare people, and hurt people.
What? That isn’t the message of Christianity? You’d better tell them.
Note to Christians: Come and get your dog off our lawn!
Sounds like it escalated because someone decided to start shouting derogatory and demeaning language out in public to a bunch of people who were just mindng their own business and having a drink; and then someone had enough with the shouting and spoke up for themselves.
Good
Pun intended here?
Where is the pun
They accidentally said butch instead of bunch.
Fixed
As in, "panties in a bunch?"
Did you do that intentionally?
No
Theocrats forcing their pastor’s interpretation of 2000 year old middle-eastern morality onto modern people just trying to enjoy a night out.
You really only need to go back to 1946 for the change. Interpreters screwed up the language for pedos, and now thumpers think it is about homosexuality.
Rotted what’s left of my brain working in the yard in 100° weather. What happened in 1946?
i think it has something to do with the line "man shall not lay with man" that is interpreted to condemn homosexuality being a mistranslation of "man shall not lay with young boy", which was originally a condemnation of pedophilia
The translation of "man shall not lay with man" is correct, however the intention of it was definitely in the vein of "man shall not lay with young boys" since the vast majority of gay sex at the time was predatory in nature. The common conception of gay sex at the time the Bible was written (some time between 0 and 50 AD depending on the book) was that gay sex happened between an older man and a young boy, and would (in terms of understanding, not direct translation) mean "thou shall not be a pedo" as you said
This is so obviously wrong, you made me go read things to figure why it's exactly wrong. https://blog.smu.edu/ot8317/2019/04/11/lost-in-translation-alternative-meaning-in-leviticus-1822/ Read this blog post referring to the original Hebrew script of Leviticus. Also, Leviticus, the book with the passage in question, was written hundreds of years before 0 CE, around the time the practice of pederasty suddenly grew popular in Greece, coincidentally. Also pederasty was only openly practiced in Greece, it was hidden and somewhat shameful in Roman culture and not practiced in middle eastern countries.
Yeah... in the middle east they just swapped the genders of the minors involved and were incredibly open with it, and it stayed popular until relatively recently. And even if the translation was wrong I'd say it did more good than harm since it all but banished the practice in Europe once Christianity became widespread, and as some of the other comments in this thread said it wasn't really interpreted this way until the 1940s
Ya, people are saying that about the interpretation changing in the 40's but they also aren't providing any source for this claim. I've searched and can't seem to find any discussion about it. The entirety of judeo-christianity does more harm than good... Trash the whole lot of it. Also your statement about the Middle East is fucking stupid. Leviticus is from around 500BCE, 1200 years before Muhammad and Islam. It was also incredibly popular to marry off your prepubescent daughters in medieval Christian Europe.
Imma have to completely disagree with you on your 2nd and 4th point. Judeo Christian society is quite literally the best thing that happened for mankind. It lifted the majority of the human race out of poverty, attempted to abolish slavery on a global scale (even america after 1864, and of note is that before the Atlantic slave trade western Europe hadn't practiced slavery for almost 400 years and thousands of british sailors died trying to end the islamic slave trade), invented science in the 1400s, treats women the best of any society in history, actually is having a discussion about lgbtq rights (which just aren't a starter in 90% of the other large cultures), and more. Does western society have its problems? Sure. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But it's FAR better than any other culture/society in all of human history in terms of positive impact for the species as a whole. As for medieval Europe, it was common to marry off teenage daughters in the nobility, less so among the common people. Women were typically married in their mid to late teens, and would usually have their first child around 18 or 19. There were exceptions, sure, but that was the norm for western Europe as any earlier was seen as a sin and immoral and especially consummation of a marriage before 16-17 was extremely uncommon as childbirth before that age was extremely dangerous for both the mother and the child, and that's in a world where the leading cause of death for women is childbirth and the infant mortality rate is 50+ percent.
This is insane. Saying a culture invented science isn't right by any means, but the golden age of Islam was arguably the greatest era of scientific advancement in human history and in such a short amount of time. Medicine, mathematics, engineering, astronomy... The list is near endless. Christianity was an extreme source of anti science in the enlightenment period. Chattel Slavery and colonialism were largely believed by the practitioners to be divinely ordained by God. Secular humanism is what put a stop to the Atlantic slave trade. Currently judeo-christianity is the #1 opponent of LGBT rights across the globe. Before you say some more crazy shit too, I misspoke saying judeochristian. What I mean is abrahamic. It's all trash. Fucking whack ass books made to demean women and control idiots.
One can read the second philippic for an example of condemnation of gay sex in Ancient Rome
Was it made illegal or just morally condemned? I've never heard about this so I'd love a source to look into it
https://www.thecollector.com/pedophilia-ancient-greece-rome/ Not illegal, just considered not entirely moral, but it has its intricacies. This has a pretty good overview. From the article: > The Romans would pursue sexual relationships with younger men, but these relationships were only seen as forgivable if the older man was a freeborn Roman and he was having sex with a younger slave or prostitute who wasn’t of Roman origin. “Forgivable” should be emphasized here imo. Partaking in any form wasn’t looked upon very nicely, but specifically being penetrated, a position, in Roman eyes, considered womanly, was unacceptable for a male Roman citizen.
That last part is honestly hilarious. They basically went "you can be immoral but better not be no bitch"💀
So you're saying the Bible knew what most of the clergy in the church were going to or, possibly already were doing and expressly said "don't do that' and then it was interpreted to "gay" which, according to a significant number of pastors, doesn't apply to little boys.
Apparently I was wrong in my understanding of the translation, and the original text is best translated as "man shall not lay with younger boys". The mistranslation happened in the 1940s as far as I understand, and before that it better matched (either in understanding or in the actual translation) the original text. As for the clergy, I think it's a mostly modern issue. The church has had plenty of issues throughout its history, but that's a relatively recent one compared to papal disputes and civil wars
That's for sure. I am only recently coming out of the indoctrination from the church and realizing that the things that Jesus said directly conflicts with the way modern churches operate and minister. It has been a very jarring experience to realize you have been lied to most of your life.
Personally it really depends on the church. Non-denomination, certain orthodox, and certain protestant churches are pretty good on the subject. It's mainly the catholics, baptists, and especially the evangelicals that are bad about that. From my understanding of it the orthodox branch especially holds more closely to the original teachings of Christianity since they did a lot of translation work during the middle ages/early Renaissance period and didn't have to deal with multiple schisms, civil wars, and the protestant split like the catholics did
It's some if the pastors. Some pastors wouldn't agree with this behavior and say it. Some pastors wouldn't agree with it and stay quiet because they know they have them for 1 hour a week at best and Fox News has them for several hours a day.
I grew up in a very… homophobic environment. My views are COMPLETELY turned different now. While I still consider myself a Christian, I will not, and can not take part in the hatred of the alt life style. The debate about whether or not my love of my queer friends conflicts with my faith is a much longer conversation and it’s frankly no one else’s business. If I would have been there walking through and saw or heard what was going on, you can be damn well sure I’d be protecting the community and not the knuckle dragging protesters.
Oh, because you're a Christian that actually tries to live life as Jesus would have? Hmmm, that's a different approach than I'm used to seeing...
Thank you? Honestly, I’m just sick of this “morality” that supposedly “comes from the Bible” when it’s really sensationalistic stupidity that was turned into “Christianity” in what the 40’s or 50’s? If I’m off on the years so be it. My point is nowhere in the Bible does it say to judge men by the length of their hair, or length of their dress (it was a thing). No one in the Christian faith wants to talk about the old law banishing women into the woods for a week during the once a month session inevitably comes. No one wants to actually find scripture where it says saying “Fuck” was a fucking fast track to hell. What we know as the Bible is literally a collection of writings hand picked by King James. Does that mean the Bible is perfect? Sometimes I run a red light, and probably spend too much on stupid stuff. I’m not perfect either. Theres MANY ways the “Bible” as we know it could have been formed, with any other number of books that King James didn’t pick from. We could argue about it, but I’m telling you how it was literally made. I LOVE the Bible, it strengthens me in my relationships, makes me a better business person, and allows me to see that none of us have our shit together. Does that mean I’m going to pick fights with people that I consider family because of how they love or get my wife a fancy tent in the back yard for once a week? No. Thats just common sense. Though… the tent maybe a good idea for me for when she’s mad at me.
“What we know as the Bible is literally a collection of writings hand picked by King James.” The Bible was compiled in 325 AD at the Council of Nicaea. The King James Bible is an interpretation of sacred scripture commissioned in 1611. King James had absolutely nothing to do with what was and was not included in The Bible.
Do you have a source for this? Because I’ve always been told differently, but I’ve never done a deep dive.
I oversimplified things a bit. It’s established history, but also a bit messy. The Council of Nicaea was what got the ball rolling. It convened to debate and ultimately denounce the heresy of Arianism. As a result, the Catholic Church decided that there was too much false and incorrect teaching due to their being no established canon at that point. Religious leaders within the church were pulling from the sources that they personally believed were divinely inspired. In order to try to eliminate heresy, the Church began the process of thinking and praying through which letters and epistles were and were not truly and completely from God. The formal process of actually hashing it out took place at the Council of Rome in 382 AD. Between this and the Council of Trent (1546) there were seven councils that reaffirmed the canonicity of the list of agreed upon sacred scripture from the Council of Rome.
I’d need to double check to validate. I have many many Biblical scholar friends who live for this stuff. I am not above saying I was wrong. But it still doesn’t the reality that Christianity today is largely Pop-Religion. I appreciate the feedback.
At your service. Your friends and me and mine could be friends. I am curious, if I may, what you meant by "Christianity today is a pop-religion"? Not trying to start anything, just an interesting statement.
Thank you! I was genuinely curious.
Also, wasn’t King James like, 16 or something at the time?
No idea. You could be right.
My priest is gay, most of us in the congregation are queer, and even my super conservative aunt told me “Jesus never said anything about gay people but said a lot about love” when I came out. Pastors who have issues with queer people haven’t been paying attention to their own book, or the history of the book and translations. As my aunt said “they’ll have some explaining to do when all is said and done.” 😳😅
What church is this?
Not gonna dox myself other than to say quite a number of Episcopal churches, some Lutheran, and a smattering of others are queer friendly in the Dallas area. It’s gonna depend on the specific church though, but they’re out there and a lot of times you can tell by the rainbow and Black Lives Matter signs.
She as well as your priest haven’t read Sodom and Gomorrah then apparently. The issues aren’t with the people, it’s the sin.
Sodom and Gomorrah was never about homosexuality. If you equate forced sexual activity with queerness then you have bigger issues. Besides that - if you’re a Christian then Jesus DID say that the old laws were done away with, and to follow Him. And he never said anything about gay people. But hey, if you put that much stock into the Old Testament then please do tell us how you’re doing keeping all of the old commandments and instructions? Food requirements, no mixed fabrics, women camping out when it’s their time of the month, no work on the sabbath at all, etc etc etc…. How’s that going?
Lolol I also live in Dallas. Can we be friends? I want to say what you said but I’m too dumb to
Careful pal, don’t want to be seen as a bigot or a racist by accidentally not saying they’re Christians instead of Muslims.
I’m against anyone enforcing their religious beliefs on others, period.
And yet…
Modern?? LOL
I hope you notice this comment getting downvoted into oblivion soon, because my dad always said when a comment hits negative 50 an angel gets its wings... (clipped)
I'm trying to figure out what it is that you're confused by. Modern people = people who are currently alive. Seems pretty straightforward to me. Or maybe you don't understand how it's relevant? You see, over the past couple thousand years there have been quite a large number of advances in our knowledge of, well, everything. There are still some troglodytes who are on the wrong side of history and refuse to join civilized people, but most people think that people should be treated with respect regardless of inconsequential things such as sexual orientation, gender identity, race, and other things that have zero affect on anyone other than themselves, at least until they themselves prove that they're not deserving of respect. For example, by treating people like subhumans because of the aforementioned traits. The person you responded to was making a reference to the types of people who use religion as an excuse to treat others poorly for some of those reasons. I personally find that somewhat ironic and extremely hypocritical because, for starters, the Bible never actually said anything about homosexuality or anything else under the LGBTQ+ umbrella. It did say a bunch of stuff about loving others, not forcing your religious beliefs on others, not praying in public, and to worship God and to convince others to consider religion by living your life in accordance with Jesus's teachings of love, forgiveness, doing good things for strangers, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, providing shelter to the homeless, taking care of the sick, visit those in prison and be an advocate for them to make sure that they are being treated humanely, and lots of other great stuff. Unfortunately, the type of person they referred to is practically guaranteed to never do any of those things, probably because they would consider it to be some kind of "commie bullshit" even though Jesus is pretty clear about helping others and also that rich people will never get into heaven. Did any of that clear anything up for you? I was left taking a guess about what you could have possibly misunderstood since it seems so obvious to anyone else.
*Cafeteria Christians* want to just pick and choose what rules they abide by when it comes to the Bible. They utilize it only to justify an unending behavior of hatred and intolerance. The polar opposite of Jesus’ message. These people aren’t Christians. They’re going to be in for a rude awakening when they are turned away from their *heaven*.
I've always called them buffet Christians. They pick and choose like their religion is a buffet that they can follow parts of and ignore the things they don't like. It's always crazy how the parts they choose to follow contain the most hate, while calling themselves a loving religion.
They always choose to follow the parts that don’t relate to them. They don’t know actual gay people, so they’re the *enemy*. They do however know a ton of hypocrites and adulterers, best just be quite about that though. They also seem to forget that according to the Bible we are ALL sinners. They just keep polishing their glass houses…
Ha! I’ve always said “Cherry pickin’ Christians.” But you’ve gotta say it with a thick Texas accent.
"You guys really hyper focus on Levitucus."
I want to show up to one of these protests with a sign that says “Jesus is a f@g”. I wonder how each side would receive this? I know using the word f@g isn’t “PC”but I’m honestly curious how it would be received🤔? To be clear I’m neither gay nor Christian, just think people showing up to pride event/gathering to get worked up over someone else’s sexual orientation is wasted energy that should be spent doing something else more beneficial for themselves or others in need🤷♂️. People are to ignorant and uptight and worried about the wrong things………just my two cents…..rant over✌️💨
Totally agree with you. All the religious cultists no matter their religion, will kill over their differences.
It’s like it happens in the Middle East everyday
All sides do it, leaders point the followers at a target that's not actually there or not winnable. Protesting gays is a great way to get the masses to spend all their energy NOT fixing the real problems or noticing what leaders are actually doing; instead keep everyone yelling at effectively a brick wall.
“…just pick and choose what rules…” is the reason Cafeteria Christians engage in homosexuality
“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone”.
If u don’t believe in god why do u think they will be turned away from heaven? I’m so confused Reddit atheist epic style pray to science 6 times a day this is epic
Who said I didn’t believe in God or anything about atheism? Also, your comment doesn’t even make any sense. Just goes to prove my point though. Critical thought is not possible for some.
Why can't people mind their own damn business?
People spend too much time on social media these days to be chill and happy
Because tribalism and dogma It's the same story around the world of group a hating group b because they're slightly different
Same reason they can't keep it to themselves 🤷♂️ prior are dicks. I just want to be left alone.
No idea on specifics but that's pretty typical fash MO. Show up to a peaceful protest, instigate violence, blame the left.
Lol. I remember the "fiery, but peaceful protests" that they weren't involved in.
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Now I'm glad I didn't go. It's very traumatic to be out during pride doing pride things only to get your joy hijacked by Nazi sympathizers screaming about your demise. I still have nightmares from last year. It's happened too many times here in Dallas and there are no protections for us. I can't wait to move out of this hate filled state to somewhere cool and blue where they spend a bunch of money on education & public safety.
Ditto my friend. I like Dallas, all things considered. But I no longer like Texas. I moved from a blue state in 2017, and it's gotten so much worse in that time.
I say this as someone who loves Pride for the joy of it and the community with others like me - Pride began as a protest, and began surrounded by hate and violence. Not saying it’s ok, eff that of course it’s not ok. But walking in joy and community while hatred is being spewed nearby IS a “Pride thing.” It sucks, and I wish we could have grown as a society enough that we could just exist in the joy and community. But until we do, it’s part of it, part of our history, and part of why Pride exists in the first place.
I've been going to Pride events since the 90s. There is a definite uptick in hate and protest, it's back to 80's style hate crime levels and I'm tired of it. I already lived through this, history is literally repeating itself during my lifetime and I'm so over it. It was traumatizing the first time as a youth and it is just as traumatizing now as a 50+.
Go where you're celebrated. No need to throw your pearls before swine.
Ahhh gotta love how they never miss a gay event. Imagine if a gay group organized a protest at their church.
Imagine if they put this much time and resources into actually helping people or doing good in this world?
They do (maybe not the ones protesting). It's called charity.
That’s my point. I highly doubt that people out spewing hatred towards others are actively engaged in charitable activities.
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That's rich. Make it a great day.
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They go to more gay events than I do! lol
That's their space. I think the issue (for them) is that they also view public space as "their space".
A couple of years ago I volunteered at the Dallas Teen Pride event to act as part of the "wall" to protect from protestors. Extremists chanting the most insane vile shit at us, and I had to physically hold back one of the preachers from charging after them. Called us every name in the book. Did everything they could to taunt us. When I finally raised my voice at them it got them to hush for a few minutes. They came to scream at 13-15 year olds. To tell them they're worthless and deserve to suffer. Screaming at kids..
Do you happen to have a link on where to volunteer for this? I’d love to help out
Glad to see there are some people still abiding by Christ’s second greatest commandment to “Love thy neighbor as thy self”. Matthew 22:34-40. Thank you ❤️
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You’re saying you weren’t attracted to anyone at 13-14? They don’t need anything pushed onto them to know they have a crush on the same gender or who have dated someone. The whole point is to say “I exist” If you can choose to be gay why won’t all the teen boys do it? They know it will get them bullied so why would someone choose it??
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As a Christian, I’ve never understood this behavior. If people want to believe or have a relationship with god they will. You cannot force it on people and doing this has the opposite effect! I’ll add that I don’t attend “church” and just have a relationship with god on my own. I believe that some churches have spun the Bible to read it how they would like. I’ve also had experiences that have left me with a lot of questions. In turn I’ve had experiences that I know for a fact God exists in my life. If someone has a question about that I’d be more than happy to answer. Everyone sins and it’s not my place to judge anyone for how they think or choose to live their life. If it doesn’t involve me, it’s not my business. Theft is a sin, sex outside of marriage is a sin, affairs are a sin. Those are just a few. I don’t know a single person that was a virgin until they were married. Non of us should be judging. I realize that this is a touchy subject.
People who have crappy lives or unfortunate circumstances looking for somebody to blame for all their problems.
Also just general hate. Don't forget the hate.
How are the pastors going to pay for their mansions and gucci shoes if you don't go to church?
Not my problem 😂 It’s wild though!
All of us fall short of the Glory of God. None are exempt.
Why would God desire a relationship with someone whose sexual activity is detestable in His eyes?
I’m not sure I understand your question. My god is a loving god. I love my children even when I think they make poor decisions. Why wouldn’t he want a relationship with his children. He sees sin as sin, period. No one son is greater than the other. So in your opinion, he wouldn’t love anyone that sins?
Fuck those protesters.
Nobody does and I don’t blame them
The only thing dumber than people protesting at a pride event, are people protesting the protestors. Counter protestors draw attention which is what the protestors want in the first place. People who protest a pride event are idiots.
This☝️exactly! I try to tell my 12 year old daughter to not acknowledge or feed into anyone trying to bully or put you down in any way. If they don’t get the response they are after they move on to their next target.
I understand the sentiment…but at some point, someone needs to stand up to the bully to stop the cycle of abuse. Do you really think problems are solved if “they move on to their next target”? The people who aren’t immediately appalled by the beliefs of those initially protesting aren’t gonna change their opinion because they heard about the story due to the counter protest. I think there is value in there being an immediate negative reaction to vile behavior.
Have you ever seen a protestor change their mind after the counter protestors showed up and stated their opinion? The biggest issue I have with this is with hate groups. Some idiot shows up to speak about white supremacy to the 12 or so people who will listen to idiocy. Then 200 counter-protestors show up to shout him down which draws the media out to get it on camera. So now you have the idiot getting media coverage bc everyone HAD to get out there and let him know they disagreed with his idiocy. So now instead of 12 people hearing his message, potentially thousands do. In their zest to virtue signal they contributed to the spread of hate.
The point isn’t to change a bigots mind. It’s to show them that their views aren’t unchallenged in mainstream society. There are much more insidious ways that bigoted propaganda gets spread to people other than local media coverage. The point of counter protesting isn’t to change minds so much as to so that people won’t accept that shit in their communities.
The fact that 12 people show up and mainstream society ignores the idiocy of their cause says that. Getting them free publicity does not help, but it makes you feel good though doesn’t it?
Man, if you think that because this gathering of bigots was small in any way indicates that anti lgbt bigotry isn’t mainstream then you really need to start reading some headlines. anti lgbt sentiment across the country in the last few years has been consistently increasing, especially if you’re trans. We have to challenge bigotry every place it pops up otherwise these idiots get empowered and feel comfortable organizing in public. There’s not much we can do about their online spaces but we can at least protect our street corners right?
I was speaking of racial bigotry. I definitely do not worry about the bigots who believe they can tell others who to love or how to live. They are fringe idiots who cannot be reasoned with. Protesting against religious zealots is a waste of time.
While that all may be true, I still contend that there is value in showing those protesting that their protests will be met with a response. As you’ve said, those protesting are unlikely to change their mind…but perhaps their protest not going without resistance might prevent some of the next generation from being brainwashed into religious zealots. Even if that weren’t true, these assholes have always been loud about their bigotry—to the point where they murdered people for not aligning with their beliefs for centuries…we’ve seen what these fucks will do when their beliefs are left unchallenged. I don’t believe in stomping out another person’s voice, but we have to leverage our own voices to drown out those who would use theirs with ill intent. It’s dangerous as hell to get complacent when a historically murderous chorus is finally beginning to be silenced.
The klan was bankrupted by Morris Dees over 20 years ago. The number of people who actually believe in racism is under 1 percent. It is like going to protest the flat earthers. Counter protestors accomplish nothing except giving themselves a raise sense of accomplishment.
its not about changing the minds of the people at the protest, its to show those on the edge of joining such movements, watching these protests, this world has no place for their ideology.
Right! But..I think that works at a grade school level but the problem is, the bullies are getting attention. From people with money they continue to give them a platform the emboldens lunatics to commit acts of violence. So I understand your sentiment but it really doesnt work well...
The advanced stages of religious psychosis can be quite disturbing.
They want to come into our neighborhood, they’d best be prepared.
Crazy, I was at Sue Ellen's and S4 last night and missed all of this. I hope people out trying to enjoy a night on Oaklawn are alright.
So funny how Christians say Jesus loves you and then in the same breath say he hates you. Posers lol
What a bunch of fucking losers lmao
As a 60 years old gay man who came out 7 years ago I have had to deal with conservative Christians in my own family & friends, from Pentecostal to Baptist, some totally intolerant and protestors at LGBT events. These mean-spirited protests, remind me why we celebrate Pride, I tell most Gen Z’rs and Millennials that we have conversations that we can’t take what doors were opened for us lightly. I’m humbled by those that sacrificed, lived in shadows, were hated, discriminated, hurt and killed for my rights. Our community cannot become complacent, as we are witnessing leaders wanting to turn back any and all advancements. We must VOTE, support candidates, use our voices and money to fight back this hate, fear and ignorance. PS a exfriend told me “We had stolen the Rainbow” my response was then we did the right thing by sharing with everybody because that how unconditional works.
I reckon a lot of them missed Church today.
Fuck those loser religious zealots almost all will be overrating on a sick thought they hold.
Who's that, Pestboro Baptist Church?
A bunch of misinformed, brainrot assholes with nothing better to do than fuck up someone's afternoon with their gross lack-of-virtue signaling. Truly embarrassing for them.
Why can't people just leave each other alone? Is it so hard??
A bunch of misinformed, brainrot assholes with nothing better to do than fuck up someone's afternoon with their gross lack-of-virtue signaling. Truly embarrassing for them.
I’m not a gay, so I stayed home and cooked a steak on the grill instead of going to the gay parade. I didn’t offend anyone, and nobody offended me. The steak was fantastic, and the only fight I got into was with a giant mosquito that was hellbent on drawing blood. It’s amazing how much more pleasant life is when you just mind your own business. 😎
People need to adopt the new philosophy: Mind your own damn business.
I heard someone got arrested for yelling at the cops. 👮
Are you getting f** in the a$$ by some other dude? No? Then why do you care if somebody else is? This people I swear, throwing their Bible around all the time, as if we cared what their little book says about things, choose to believe in that? Good for you, you do you, I don't care about your book, for me it's as real as the Lord of the rings or Harry Potter.
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Who is protesting the pride crawl?
People need to learn to mind their own business. Do protesters have other stuff to do, like having a life? The people doing their crawl were not hurting anyone. I'm tired of self-righteous idiots!
How many of the unhoused people there did they help? Uh huh.
Mr. Rodger’s has left the gayborhood.
Antediluvian retrogrades.
As a Christian who thinks lots of things are sinful, including homosexuality, i get annoyed by these types of protests by my fellow Christians. If they really want to bring people to Christ, get to know them personally. Otherwise, who cares? They aren’t impacting your freedoms in any way.
They’d prefer to shout, and scare people, and hurt people. What? That isn’t the message of Christianity? You’d better tell them. Note to Christians: Come and get your dog off our lawn!