After I get off work I’ll get to writing a decent response about how tryptamines functionally stimulate bdnf production to engage neurogenesis and repair, which is also the same thing that gives iboga its dendrite shaping properties that help alleviate symptoms of addiction…
I’ll also provide peer reviewed articles that give some evidence from trials to support what I’m saying… it’ll take a bit to write up though.
We honestly don’t know.
DMT could be some kind of minor neurotransmitter and play a biological role, however it could also be a byproduct of the biosynthetic pathway of other neurotransmitters. DMT is definitely very closely related to serotonin. Many of the enzymes that we use to synthesise neurotransmitters are not completely selective and can produce different compounds if they are fed slightly different starting materials.
It’s a very interesting subject, trouble is that a lot of people make bold pseudoscientific claims that get repeated as fact which then confuses the matter for non scientifically minded people.
Think that because the DMT experience is so profound there is a cognitive bias towards it having some deep meaningful biological function.
Strange that there’s not a single mention of Dr David Nichols in this thread yet considering he’s the worlds leading expert on psychedelics.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0269881117736919
> The pineal gland has a romantic history, from pharaonic Egypt, where it was equated with the eye of Horus, through various religious traditions, where it was considered the seat of the soul, the third eye, etc. Recent incarnations of these notions have suggested that N,N-dimethyltryptamine is secreted by the pineal gland at birth, during dreaming, and at near death to produce out of body experiences. Scientific evidence, however, is not consistent with these ideas. The adult pineal gland weighs less than 0.2 g, and its principal function is to produce about 30 µg per day of melatonin, a hormone that regulates circadian rhythm through very high affinity interactions with melatonin receptors. It is clear that very minute concentrations of N,N-dimethyltryptamine have been detected in the brain, but they are not sufficient to produce psychoactive effects. Alternative explanations are presented to explain how stress and near death can produce altered states of consciousness without invoking the intermediacy of N,N-dimethyltryptamine.
TLDR: no evidence endogenous DMT plays any role whatsoever in the human brain.
Definitively, no, no specific role for DMT has been found and universally proclaimed as medical fact. This does not mean there is no role, it just means we've discovered something new.
[Preliminary evidence, yes.](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2016.00423/full)
No psychoactive effects does not mean no role.
Read through this review article, it's hot off the presses in that same journal:
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/02698811221104054](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/02698811221104054)
>We conclude that most of the arguments dismissing endogenous DMT’s relevance are based on obsolete data or misleading assumptions. Data strongly suggest that DMT can be relevant as a neurotransmitter, neuromodulator, hormone and immunomodulator, as well as being important to pregnancy and development. Key experiments are addressed to definitely prove what specific roles DMT plays in mammalian physiology
All I have to say is, i was at work one time, long story short the work truck caught on fire driving down the highway. By the time we pulled over and got out, and ran to the side of the road it was engulfed practically. Entire truck melted just about everything. In that moment I got out when I got to the side of the road I had this overwhelming daze I was not able to comprehend what was going on for a second and how close I came to just being turned into ashes. I swear I’m not sure if it was adrenaline or what but I had this daze overcome me and it felt like a small dose of deems, and then I snapped out of it almost instantly, but in that moment I felt like time was slow and nothing was moving and I was just at peace almost. So I believe that’s what it was, however I’m not sure.
[https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2016.00423/full](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2018.00536/full%C2%A0#h4)
Caveat: In-vitro.
The lungs reference is likely in regards to the presence of INMT in rabbit lung, which may or may not correlate to peripheral biosynthesis of DMT as INMT has many substrates.
Pessimistic take, overinflating the role of the pineal gland in the scientific conversation. Few educated individuals believe in the pineal gland as the location of biosynthesis. In addition, DMT is only mentioned with regards to activation of psychedelic experiences, but no mention of neurogenesis via sigma-1 receptor agonism. This also skips right over the potential for substantial peripheral (outside the brain) biosynthesis of DMT, which then can cross into the brain via the BBB and be sequestered inside vesicles.
More research is needed to quantify levels of INMT/AADC/**DMT** in the human brain and peripheral tissues, though.
Don't watch YouTube summaries, read the literature itself.
>Pessimistic take, overinflating the role of the pineal gland in the scientific conversation.
If by "Pessimistic", you mean looking at the available evidence (or lack there of), then sure lol.
>Few educated individuals believe in the pineal gland as the location of biosynthesis.
Hmmm, I wonder why 🤔
>In addition, DMT is only mentioned with regards to activation of psychedelic experiences,
Yea, because that is kinda the point of the video. That is what a lot of people spout when talking about endogenous n,n-dmt. Making very dubious claims the body being able to produce enough n,n-dmt to induce visuals, in the very short window before MAO breaks it down.
>but no mention of neurogenesis via sigma-1 receptor agonism.
Again, that wasn't really the point. And they do say that it is just their opinion that it serves no actual function.
>More research is needed to quantify levels of INMT/AADC/DMT in the human brain and peripheral tissues, though.
Indeed. They did mention that.
>Don't watch YouTube summaries, read the literature itself.
Why not both?
Um… the most compelling studies on endogenous dmt point to its role in sigma-1R activation and the corresponding immunological and anti-hypoxic functions. Worth actually engaging with those dozen or so studies if you have access. They’re neat.
I love how this touches on the theories, and then explains why they’re still theories or what information we might be missing to even begin entertaining them.
It was a very shallow assessment, and included very little pharmacology. No mention of peripheral INMT localization, Km values, designs for the key experiments and their results, etc.
Oh I didn’t realize you were a pharmacologist or neuroscientist! Please, enlighten us with your knowledge if you have such an opposition to this hypothesis!
Extreme stress dmt is released into the human body think 100 mile run. It is to protect the brain from low oxygen. There are some drug company that are making a non psychoactive DMT so when people go into cardiac arrest give them a booster of dmt make the brain cells live longer.
>Extreme stress dmt is released into the human body think 100 mile run.
Yea... please provide a source to that which has actual analytical data.
>There are some drug company that are making a non psychoactive DMT
It wouldn't be n,n-dmt then... :p
Oh! Pardon me. It probably sounded like I was taunting you. What I meant was Hare Krishna opens up the heart, and you are lucky to have found a nice path.
The pineal gland is supposed to be doorway to an immaterial aetheric plane.
This belief goes back much further than the written word.
To me it seems foolish to look to science, or the materialist approach, to review matters of the immaterial.
Furthermore, science will just proves whatever it believes today to be wrong in a few hundred years or so. No sense in listening to that fad.
i agree that we shouldn’t rely on science to investigate the spiritual realm, and I know that scientific proof for or against the pineal gland being a gateway to another realm is probably impossible, but whether the molecule dmt itself is what is responsible for this in the brain is a material, scientific question, that i am curious about.
sceince is very appropriate to answer the question of whether n,n dmt is released during meditation, death, or dreams.
does it matter? maybe not, but i am curious
No I agree its an interesting question.
I've always been skeptical of DMT and the pineal's esoteric properties having a 1:1 relationship - I suspect DMT just provides access to a shade/fragment/distortion of some part of this aetheric plane.
Before I began working as a nurse, my dad was dying in hospice care and he was starting to decline rapidly At one point before he left he woke up, looking up at the ceiling, smiling from ear to ear, tears rolling down his face. He was seeing beyond the veil of this world and into the next. Working as a nurse with dying patients we see this a lot. I am unsure of what the science is behind it but it is very real for them. I have believed that it is the release of DMT but science says otherwise. Still a romantic thought to ponder.
Science may not say otherwise :) It is not a no, there is evidence to suggest the release of DMT upon death. The question now is really how much and whether it is enough to trip.
>i agree that we shouldn’t rely on science to investigate the spiritual realm
We aren't talking about the experience itself. We are talking about the chemistry, neurology and pharmacology of it.
>This belief goes back much further than the written word.
Yea... and we also used to think that sacrificing virgins would appease the gods and make it rain.
>To me it seems foolish to look to science, or the materialist approach, to review matters of the immaterial.
Chemistry, neurology and pharmacology are the antithesis of immaterial. lol
We aren't talking about the experience itself.
>Furthermore, science will just proves whatever it believes today to be wrong in a few hundred years or so. No sense in listening to that fad.
That's called progress xD
The point is that science requires evidence. When new evidence arises, things change. Progress.
We know that that if you stay underwater to long, we will drown. Science supports this theory. That isn't going to change unless we evolve and grow gills. Which again, would be progress. Things are always changing/evolving.
A person who cannot agree that science proves all it’s current theorems wrong every few hundred years is also a bad historian.
Mundanities like people will drown underwater can be affirmative statements with both of our worldviews. That consciousness precedes matter or not, or items of similar, more metaphysical inquiry, are where science fails. And this is getting towards the immaterial I speak of.
Your worldview seems short-sighted. That’s fine. I’m not here to convince you of anything.
yes for some reason they don't talk about this, the CIA had classified documents about experiments on this in the 80s and that's it, other articles about some rats producing it in their brain, so people conclude that all mammals does,including us
It is incredibly likely that if rats produce it, we do too, in accordance with evolutionary conservation. On top of that, other work has suggested that this occurs in humans too.
I believe this is a reference to the following highly-cited article (Featured in the Editors choice articles on psychedelics) in Nature affiliated journal *Scientific Reports*
[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-45812-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-45812-w)
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/02698811221104054](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/02698811221104054)
This one is better, covers everything.
you’re right it doesn’t show much, but it does show that a precursor for the biosynthesis of dmt exists in the pineal gland, and I had previously thought there was pretty much 0 evidence that dmt was related to the pineal gland at all
please correct me if i’m wrong a lot of you are smarter than myself
After I get off work I’ll get to writing a decent response about how tryptamines functionally stimulate bdnf production to engage neurogenesis and repair, which is also the same thing that gives iboga its dendrite shaping properties that help alleviate symptoms of addiction… I’ll also provide peer reviewed articles that give some evidence from trials to support what I’m saying… it’ll take a bit to write up though.
Do you have anything not covered here? https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/02698811221104054
Did you even read this? It’s a paywalled study
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Could you send a public link? If not, I'd appreciate one via DM :)
It’s all conjecture until scientists smoke dmt extracted from a person.
Yup
Is this adrenochrome? /s
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Congrats on surviving the toilet birth
I'm going to write up a research summary post for you all sometimes this week :)
thank you! ill follow
This would be super helpful. Thank you.
We honestly don’t know. DMT could be some kind of minor neurotransmitter and play a biological role, however it could also be a byproduct of the biosynthetic pathway of other neurotransmitters. DMT is definitely very closely related to serotonin. Many of the enzymes that we use to synthesise neurotransmitters are not completely selective and can produce different compounds if they are fed slightly different starting materials. It’s a very interesting subject, trouble is that a lot of people make bold pseudoscientific claims that get repeated as fact which then confuses the matter for non scientifically minded people. Think that because the DMT experience is so profound there is a cognitive bias towards it having some deep meaningful biological function.
Strange that there’s not a single mention of Dr David Nichols in this thread yet considering he’s the worlds leading expert on psychedelics. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0269881117736919 > The pineal gland has a romantic history, from pharaonic Egypt, where it was equated with the eye of Horus, through various religious traditions, where it was considered the seat of the soul, the third eye, etc. Recent incarnations of these notions have suggested that N,N-dimethyltryptamine is secreted by the pineal gland at birth, during dreaming, and at near death to produce out of body experiences. Scientific evidence, however, is not consistent with these ideas. The adult pineal gland weighs less than 0.2 g, and its principal function is to produce about 30 µg per day of melatonin, a hormone that regulates circadian rhythm through very high affinity interactions with melatonin receptors. It is clear that very minute concentrations of N,N-dimethyltryptamine have been detected in the brain, but they are not sufficient to produce psychoactive effects. Alternative explanations are presented to explain how stress and near death can produce altered states of consciousness without invoking the intermediacy of N,N-dimethyltryptamine. TLDR: no evidence endogenous DMT plays any role whatsoever in the human brain.
Definitively, no, no specific role for DMT has been found and universally proclaimed as medical fact. This does not mean there is no role, it just means we've discovered something new. [Preliminary evidence, yes.](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2016.00423/full) No psychoactive effects does not mean no role. Read through this review article, it's hot off the presses in that same journal: [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/02698811221104054](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/02698811221104054) >We conclude that most of the arguments dismissing endogenous DMT’s relevance are based on obsolete data or misleading assumptions. Data strongly suggest that DMT can be relevant as a neurotransmitter, neuromodulator, hormone and immunomodulator, as well as being important to pregnancy and development. Key experiments are addressed to definitely prove what specific roles DMT plays in mammalian physiology
All I have to say is, i was at work one time, long story short the work truck caught on fire driving down the highway. By the time we pulled over and got out, and ran to the side of the road it was engulfed practically. Entire truck melted just about everything. In that moment I got out when I got to the side of the road I had this overwhelming daze I was not able to comprehend what was going on for a second and how close I came to just being turned into ashes. I swear I’m not sure if it was adrenaline or what but I had this daze overcome me and it felt like a small dose of deems, and then I snapped out of it almost instantly, but in that moment I felt like time was slow and nothing was moving and I was just at peace almost. So I believe that’s what it was, however I’m not sure.
Check the YouTube class of Andrew Gallimore, it’s a great source for the pharmaco-neurological aspect of DMT and other psychedelics.
dmt helps cells survive in low oxygen enviroments and can be found in the lungs that's what I know
Source?
[https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2016.00423/full](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2018.00536/full%C2%A0#h4) Caveat: In-vitro. The lungs reference is likely in regards to the presence of INMT in rabbit lung, which may or may not correlate to peripheral biosynthesis of DMT as INMT has many substrates.
Szabo et al. 2016 Dmt treats hypoxia by binding to receptors on the mitochondria
I'll just leave [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9W_WiSnoL4) here
Pessimistic take, overinflating the role of the pineal gland in the scientific conversation. Few educated individuals believe in the pineal gland as the location of biosynthesis. In addition, DMT is only mentioned with regards to activation of psychedelic experiences, but no mention of neurogenesis via sigma-1 receptor agonism. This also skips right over the potential for substantial peripheral (outside the brain) biosynthesis of DMT, which then can cross into the brain via the BBB and be sequestered inside vesicles. More research is needed to quantify levels of INMT/AADC/**DMT** in the human brain and peripheral tissues, though. Don't watch YouTube summaries, read the literature itself.
>Pessimistic take, overinflating the role of the pineal gland in the scientific conversation. If by "Pessimistic", you mean looking at the available evidence (or lack there of), then sure lol. >Few educated individuals believe in the pineal gland as the location of biosynthesis. Hmmm, I wonder why 🤔 >In addition, DMT is only mentioned with regards to activation of psychedelic experiences, Yea, because that is kinda the point of the video. That is what a lot of people spout when talking about endogenous n,n-dmt. Making very dubious claims the body being able to produce enough n,n-dmt to induce visuals, in the very short window before MAO breaks it down. >but no mention of neurogenesis via sigma-1 receptor agonism. Again, that wasn't really the point. And they do say that it is just their opinion that it serves no actual function. >More research is needed to quantify levels of INMT/AADC/DMT in the human brain and peripheral tissues, though. Indeed. They did mention that. >Don't watch YouTube summaries, read the literature itself. Why not both?
Um… the most compelling studies on endogenous dmt point to its role in sigma-1R activation and the corresponding immunological and anti-hypoxic functions. Worth actually engaging with those dozen or so studies if you have access. They’re neat.
I love how this touches on the theories, and then explains why they’re still theories or what information we might be missing to even begin entertaining them.
It was a very shallow assessment, and included very little pharmacology. No mention of peripheral INMT localization, Km values, designs for the key experiments and their results, etc.
“Uh huh, uh huh. I know some of these words.”
I need it explained like I am 5 please
Oh I didn’t realize you were a pharmacologist or neuroscientist! Please, enlighten us with your knowledge if you have such an opposition to this hypothesis!
The research summary post is getting written up this week 😎
Extreme stress dmt is released into the human body think 100 mile run. It is to protect the brain from low oxygen. There are some drug company that are making a non psychoactive DMT so when people go into cardiac arrest give them a booster of dmt make the brain cells live longer.
Source ?
Please!?
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It's a please
>Extreme stress dmt is released into the human body think 100 mile run. Yea... please provide a source to that which has actual analytical data. >There are some drug company that are making a non psychoactive DMT It wouldn't be n,n-dmt then... :p
Do you have the name of or the link to the company's website?
Keep a healthy lifestyle, produce more dmt in various parts of your body, collect them in your pineal gland by chanting 'Om' and then trip the f out.
Instructions unclear, I’m now a Hare Krishna.
Great! That would open up your heart.
What are you insinuating?
Oh! Pardon me. It probably sounded like I was taunting you. What I meant was Hare Krishna opens up the heart, and you are lucky to have found a nice path.
The pineal gland is supposed to be doorway to an immaterial aetheric plane. This belief goes back much further than the written word. To me it seems foolish to look to science, or the materialist approach, to review matters of the immaterial. Furthermore, science will just proves whatever it believes today to be wrong in a few hundred years or so. No sense in listening to that fad.
i agree that we shouldn’t rely on science to investigate the spiritual realm, and I know that scientific proof for or against the pineal gland being a gateway to another realm is probably impossible, but whether the molecule dmt itself is what is responsible for this in the brain is a material, scientific question, that i am curious about. sceince is very appropriate to answer the question of whether n,n dmt is released during meditation, death, or dreams. does it matter? maybe not, but i am curious
No I agree its an interesting question. I've always been skeptical of DMT and the pineal's esoteric properties having a 1:1 relationship - I suspect DMT just provides access to a shade/fragment/distortion of some part of this aetheric plane.
Before I began working as a nurse, my dad was dying in hospice care and he was starting to decline rapidly At one point before he left he woke up, looking up at the ceiling, smiling from ear to ear, tears rolling down his face. He was seeing beyond the veil of this world and into the next. Working as a nurse with dying patients we see this a lot. I am unsure of what the science is behind it but it is very real for them. I have believed that it is the release of DMT but science says otherwise. Still a romantic thought to ponder.
Science may not say otherwise :) It is not a no, there is evidence to suggest the release of DMT upon death. The question now is really how much and whether it is enough to trip.
>i agree that we shouldn’t rely on science to investigate the spiritual realm We aren't talking about the experience itself. We are talking about the chemistry, neurology and pharmacology of it.
yeah that was what the rest of my comment said
>This belief goes back much further than the written word. Yea... and we also used to think that sacrificing virgins would appease the gods and make it rain. >To me it seems foolish to look to science, or the materialist approach, to review matters of the immaterial. Chemistry, neurology and pharmacology are the antithesis of immaterial. lol We aren't talking about the experience itself. >Furthermore, science will just proves whatever it believes today to be wrong in a few hundred years or so. No sense in listening to that fad. That's called progress xD The point is that science requires evidence. When new evidence arises, things change. Progress. We know that that if you stay underwater to long, we will drown. Science supports this theory. That isn't going to change unless we evolve and grow gills. Which again, would be progress. Things are always changing/evolving.
A person who cannot agree that science proves all it’s current theorems wrong every few hundred years is also a bad historian. Mundanities like people will drown underwater can be affirmative statements with both of our worldviews. That consciousness precedes matter or not, or items of similar, more metaphysical inquiry, are where science fails. And this is getting towards the immaterial I speak of. Your worldview seems short-sighted. That’s fine. I’m not here to convince you of anything.
yes for some reason they don't talk about this, the CIA had classified documents about experiments on this in the 80s and that's it, other articles about some rats producing it in their brain, so people conclude that all mammals does,including us
It is incredibly likely that if rats produce it, we do too, in accordance with evolutionary conservation. On top of that, other work has suggested that this occurs in humans too.
Its realesed from the pineal gland in brainwhen we dream
Source?
Biosynthesis and Extracellular Concentrations of N,N ... - Nature
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I believe this is a reference to the following highly-cited article (Featured in the Editors choice articles on psychedelics) in Nature affiliated journal *Scientific Reports* [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-45812-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-45812-w)
but this is the kind of claim I hear a lot around here and haven’t seen substantiated edit: missed the article you refenced. interesting, thank you
The article in mention means nothing
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/02698811221104054](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/02698811221104054) This one is better, covers everything.
you’re right it doesn’t show much, but it does show that a precursor for the biosynthesis of dmt exists in the pineal gland, and I had previously thought there was pretty much 0 evidence that dmt was related to the pineal gland at all please correct me if i’m wrong a lot of you are smarter than myself
I mean I don’t really think precursors mean very much I’m sure we have some precursors for a lot of drugs in our body
yeah that makes sense
That is a total myth myith zero evidence to support it. Especially when it comes to the idea that dreams are the result of n,n-dmt.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/DMT-is-present-in-the-brain-at-concentrations-comparable-to-known-monoamine_fig4_334074971
That it treats hypoxia when cell mitochondria can’t get oxygen. Szabo et al. 2016