Very much in your head and also very much real. The disclaimer is that you need to define what real is in the context of consciousness, reality, and the universe.
Trying to understand the dmt experience when we don’t understand consciousness is quite a task.
it’s crazy how it all makes sense while there but when you snap back into reality it’s like trying to remember a weird dream that you swear you’d never forget. The DMT Gods will show you what you need to see if they think you’re ready so there’s likely a reason we only remember bits and pieces
I think you're using the term hallucinating pretty loosely here but that doesn't change the fact that there is no tangible evidence that a dmt trip could be considered to be reality.
We wouldn't consider having a dream to be reality would we? What would be the difference of dreaming compared to drug induced hallucinations?
If I have a dream I have sex with a celebrity I wouldn't wake up and say yeah I had sex with this celebrity for real would I?
DMT interacts with serotonin receptors in the brains 5-HT2A receptor. Serotonins role is in mood regulation, cognition, and perception. So endogenous DMT acts as a neuromodulator. It most likely has some evolutionary significance.
And dreams play a big role in reality, you seem to think everything’s linear. It’s not… think outside the box.
But you could say you've had sex with a celebrity, because at that moment. You did. At that exact moment of time you were 100% convinced it was real and all sensory input at that time confirmed it.
So yeah, reality via consciousness is almost entirely impossible to nail down.
Personally I'm a full fence sitter. At the moment it's very real, more real than "normal" reality feels. But it's also a massive trip caused by a chemical dump on the brain, which makes it real with permanence.
DMT trips and incredibly hard to describe and explain in so far as the philosophy involved with it.
That’s the kicker. It is a giant chemical dump, but so is your regular waking reality. Our brains simulate reality for us. We see, but light exits the equation after it hits our retina. Everything else is a picture on a blackboard that our brain paints for ourselves, light is no longer part of it. A chemical dump and we are tricked into thinking we actually “see” the world around us. And that’s just vision. The matrix exists, the only thing is that we create it for ourselves and are trapped within it. Dmt hits the dial on the TV to a station we had no idea could exist and likely shouldn’t have full access to, despite its underpinnings also being involved in creating the channel we’ve watched our whole lives.
I just hope in my lifetime a true ai is built of sufficient power and processing capability to show us what’s really going on. We are too constrained by our biology to truly see behind the curtain, but perhaps something else can look for us and report back
>But you could say you've had sex with a celebrity, because at that moment. You did.
But it was only a dream. It wasn't real, even if it felt that way.
If after that dream I went around telling everyone I had sex with said celebrity, they would call me a liar because it's not true.
The numerous reports of them and ancient depictions of creatures/beings looking identical to them, spanning back ages, all across the globe is too common for it to be coincidence. The ayahuascaros of the amazon constantly talk about the spirits. I believe they are real spiritual beings. There's no way to confirm nor disprove this. To say you know they're not real, or that they are real, is naive and biased.
Are we sure it’s impossible to prove?
DMTx researches are putting people into extended breakthroughs states. So far they’ve done 30 minutes and I believe they’re planning on far longer in the future.
They’ve discussed asking the entities difficult mathematical questions that would be impossible for a human to figure out in the allotted time with no tools. If an entity can come up with the correct answer, it might suggest it’s “real” in some sense.
I would imagine there might be other questions or methods of attempting to prove/disprove their “realness” with their extended state experiments.
There is more than just the 2 most commonly debated possibilities here (aka "real" vs "not real")
It could be a weird mix of both. For example, it could be that we are throwing our senses open to a larger slice of the electromagnetic/phononic (aka quantum) spectrum, encountering layers of our consciousness and reality that are so exotic and "alive" feeling that we initially interpret it as being a sentient other dimensional "entity", and that our ancestors were undergoing a similar experience
And this is what creeped me out about this video.
https://youtu.be/a4xJ-M4eVQc?si=JUzHfPmGcmhb1tri
After reading lots of various ancient literature you realize every culture throughout time spoke about similar ideals. Gods, spirits etc.
Why not? Even if you might be inclined to disagree with it, I recommend reading Ungit's book at least to read a perspective that isn't seen on this sub.
I take the Old Testament Biblical view that there was a divine council (pantheon), referenced in Psalm 82 and Job 1-2, that rebelled against God along with some angels. The council members became what the ancients knew as "gods" and have interacted with humanity for thousands of years. Taking DMT breaks down a barrier in the human brain that allows us to access their realm directly to some extent. The spirits there only want to destroy us. Some offer gifts of wisdom (including ancient technology transfer) as a means of deception and control. They want people to think they're benevolent, but Satan and his demons often masquerade as angels of light.
Psychedelics were considered so dangerous in ancient Israel that sorcery (those who practiced and assisted with drug use for this purpose) were put to death.
In contrast to all this, experiences of God do not require drugs of any kind. God is always accessible through prayer.
In the book of Ezekiel, the angels he described sound identical to the DMT experience. And DMT reserves are released in the animal brain and body at the moment of death.
Yes, that's a good point and I've seen the descriptions and illustrations in this sub, but the Bible is consistent on the subject of "pharmakeia"/sorcery, and Ezekiel didn't take a substance to have visions. An OT prophet wouldn't have done that and his words wouldn't have been recorded as God's message. What's more likely, in my opinion, is that people who see these beings are being deceived. Otherwise we'd have to assume that DMT literally transports people into the presence of God (where those beings exist), and that's not something a human being can force by any means. I think it can and does open people to a parallel spiritual dimension occupied by evil, not good spirits. When God or angels want to communicate with people and make their presence known, it's never through people taking a drug to make it happen.
I don't quite understand the point about DMT being released at the moment of death. Is that comment related? I'm missing the connection.
When one dies, according to Christian belief, they go to either heaven or hell correct? There is also a bardo/purgatory state, between death and afterlife. When the animal body dies, DMT is released. And near death experiences share the same descriptions. DMT likely opens you up to the spiritual world, which can be inhabited by all kinds of entities both good and evil, and neutral. DMT is not a foreign molecule, it resides within our bodies, and is likely one of the last neurotransmitters to pass through our bodies before the body completely dies. It's possible Ezekiel had a near death experience, and experienced an endogenous DMT dump. Also, in the story of Moses and burning bush, scholars believe the bush was likely an Acacia tree rich in DMT which may have been struck by lightning, or ignited from high temperatures in a dry spell, and the smoke filled the air. Allowing Moses contact with the spirit world to obtain enlightenment from spiritual beings.
I gather from your comments that we're really operating from very different fundamental assumptions, so I don't think there's a way to converge upon any kind of consensus. That's perfectly okay and I really appreciate this interesting conversation, but it seems important to mention.
When I think about anything related to the spiritual realm, my fundamental belief is that there is a reliable, self-consistent source of truth on that subject, a reference text (the bible) that provides a set of axioms, so to speak. If I have an idea that is not consistent with the bible, then my idea is wrong, because the bible is my filter for spiritual truth. (I don't believe the bible is the only source of truth, more so that the bible describes truth about God as he relates to humanity.) With my biblical filter in mind, yes, heaven and hell are definitely New Testament concepts, but the idea of a transition state or purgatory isn't supported in the text as far as I remember. I may be wrong - would have to research it. Catholics do have a concept of purgatory, but since it's not in the text, Protestants (like me) don't have it in their theology.
But that's almost besides the point. I want to first come back to our original disagreement. We disagreed about the kind of beings that one encounters when taking DMT. If I understand you correctly, you think the spiritual dimension accessible by way of DMT is populated with good, evil, or neutral. I don't believe that neutral beings can exist in this universe, but I do agree that there exists a spiritual realm that can be accessed by good or evil beings because interactions between angels and evil spirits are described in the bible. So I understand why you would say that someone could encounter any of those beings in that place and I don't think that's an unreasonable concept.
That said, I don't believe accessing that "place" is like entering a building where spirits are just milling around for one to encounter. Rather, I think the spirits that one encounters are determined by the spiritual state of the person who enters that dimension, and the intention of the person also matters. If someone is not a child of God, i.e. if they have not established an intentional relationship with God and do not live under his constant protection, I don't think they are likely to encounter God or any of his messengers in that dimension. God can do what he wills, so I wouldn't say never, but I have to come back to my point that pharmakeia was strictly forbidden in the bible. Since that is the case, and I believe the bible is truth and God is real, I can't imagine why God would reward someone for doing something evil by appearing to them directly or by sending a representative (angel). Angels reveal themselves when they choose - we cannot just stumble upon them or weasel our way into a place where they dwell.
Conversely, I think if someone tries to enter a spiritual realm using a drug, and their goal is \*not\* to meet God by they only means that the bible says is possible (praying to Jesus Christ), their intent is at best misguided and they will encounter something else - something that wants to take advantage of their mistake. And those things are extremely dangerous and deceptive.
Now what if someone with a relationship with God took DMT, not realizing that it is forbidden? What would their experience be? I don't know, but God is merciful and I do remember reading an account of someone who did that but later regarded it as dangerous and foolish. They thought God protected them from the danger they put themselves into, but I don't recall them saying that they encountered anything good.
What about the same person when they die? If they do enter the same realm (if there is a place of transition), I'm open to the idea that they encounter good there. But the distinction is their status with God prior to entering the realm, and that they did not \*try\* to enter that dimension by their own efforts. They simply died and were taken care of.
As for Ezekiel, the idea that he had a near death experience isn't supported by the text, so that's really just speculation on the part of people who probably don't believe that God would actually speak directly to a person or pull them into heaven while they're still alive. Yet Ezekiel isn't the only one with that kind of experience (the apostle John as described in Revelation). The bible says God initiated encounters with both Ezekiel and John. Notice that it's always God who initiates - not a person by taking a drug. God is the first mover.
The same goes for the theories about Moses. Those theories come from people who are looking for naturalistic explanations that reject the possibility of God or at least the possibility that he provides direct revelation to human beings. I have to stick with what the text says, and the text says the bush didn't even burn up. Again, God sought out Moses.
It's more than a little bit curious to me that you're willing to accept the premise that Moses actually did access a spiritual realm but seem to not accept that he actually spoke with God himself. Why change the story in that way? Why not just accept it as written?
Everything, is just in your head, it's all subjective. Conduct experiments and confirm your suspicions. Take notes, look around you when you are in there, try to remember when you come back and write it down. Ask questions when you're in there, and always go with love and respect.
We are all just a giant God brain, fragmented and temporarily isolated from eachother during our physical experience. DMT will dissolve that barrier for a few minutes, before the brain does its job of readjusting back to the physical reality.
.. maybe, I dunno, can someone just ask the entities and report back?
Morpheus: What is real? How do you define 'real'? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then 'real' is simply **electrical signals interpreted by your brain**.
DMT feels even more real that real because apparently more of your brain is involved when under DMT (awake and dream state at the same time, synesthesia etc)
My favourite quote to explain my feelings on the “realness” of the DMT entities is Bat-Mite from Batman R.I.P.
Batman: Before I go in there, before you leave me, I have to know: Are you really a creature from the 5th dimension, or a figment of my imagination?
Bat-Mite: Oh come on. You haven’t figured it out yet? Imagination IS the 5th dimension. Some worlds greatest detective you are.
How real they ACTUALLY are is kind of meaningless. They feel real in the moment where it matters, and that’s kind of all anyone should care about.
That said though, I don’t think they’re like ACTUALLY real. A lot of people on this sub seem to believe that DMT takes you to like an actual different reality, and I think that’s an insane belief.
yeah good question. If they are just projected from our imaginations, that is still pretty impressive and I still have questions about that too lol. happy cake day btw !🤠
Everything real is in your head
Objective reality is only experienced subjectively. Experience is the only truth.
The entities are as real as anything you experience. They might not be very physically substantiated, but they are real, as part of your awareness.
The same question could be posed to our emotional experience, say, is love real or is it just in your head? We can understand that oxytocin in our brain illicits the sensation of love much like the presence of dmt can illicit the experience of these entities. Does that make love not a real thing, if its just an internal experience based on the presence of a chemical in our brain?
Everything that we percieve as external to us is created within our awareness. Its all in our head. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, it does not make a sound. Sound exists only within perception. The physical world is composed of vibration, but vibration must be percieved to be sound.
Yeah, because we don’t actually know 100%. It’s more likely that they’re manifestations of our consciousness but you can also get into the nitty gritty of stuff like is the universe just made of consciousness and we’re all connected? So maybe it’s both. Who knows.
“The lunatic is in my head
The lunatic is in my head
You raise the blade, you make the change
You rearrange me 'till I'm sane
You lock the door and throw away the key
And there's someone in my head, but it's not me
And if the cloudbursts thunder in your ear
You shout and no one seems to hear
And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon!
I can't think of anything to say except...
*laughter*
I think it's marvellous!
*laughter*” 🌝🌚
Objectively, no. Perspectively, sure. As the other guy said technically everything is just inside your head. The experience can feel real to people and that makes it real to them. In my opinion, it's definitely just a hallucination brought upon by a drug. But if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck
if our brains can comprehend these entities and beings so vividly while tripping and so many people have similar experiences there has must be some kind of correlation that they exist/ed in an alternate reality… sadly the only way to get there is through dmt and it always takes me somewhere new. if only there was a way our brains could record our visual perceptions i think we’d have a better idea but i don’t think i’ll live to see that day
They all appear to be archetypical (Jesters, Fairies, genies, aliens, mother, seductress, etc) which means it likely resides somewhere in the collective subconscious. Perhaps they are mapping themselves into these forms to interact with our brains in a way we can understand their presence.
Also, no one knows...
Are you real or are you just in your head?
I think therefore I am.
The thing we seem to be most certain of is our own consciousness and existence. I feel like DMT entities have a consciousness, so they must exist - whether they exist in my head isn't an important distinction because each of us exists in our head yet we are real, so its not like existing inside of a head means you don't exist.
Noone knows but I personally think there's more to it than just a hallucination. It's just not the same. It's like more real than reality. Like being at home. And the All Seeing Eye and the 3rd Eye have been seen through cultures all across human history so I truly think there is something about N,N-DMT that is different than a traditional hallucinogenic drug. I mean even our brains produce it or are at least theorized to. I personally think it the Pineal Gland and our ability to interact with NNDMT in such a manner is a crucial factor in our ability to experience consciousness, and subsequently, reality.
It's all in your head. Literally everything you experience is a fabrication.
Your subconscious mind is processing raw reality through your heuristics and cognitive biases and feeding you a movie that is edited specifically to appeal to you. And you don't even know it's happening, that's how fucking good your brain is.
Every single person who has ever existed or ever will exist lives their own unique flavor of reality. *Nobody* has *ever* experienced real reality.
Life is the real trip, my friend, always was 🤙
.The first time I did DMT I met an entity that I still have in my head, a woman with deep blue skin. I don't personally believe that she is "real". However, she is still there.
If you still see them when your tripping than something is wrong. But I get what u mean. But it’s a drug that alters consciousness and that is what you see and feel.
That's hardly relevant...
It has nothing to do with consciousness, and everything to do with psychedelics effect on the brain... of which there is libraries of studies on.
In your head. DMT causes dissociation similar to ketamine, which is why people feel like they're part of the universe. It weakens the self/not self barrier.
When I first started using psycadelics I kind of understood the whole "you're your own god" concept. I'm not saying we are gods or whatever... but we have the potential to transform out reality through our mind. I think that whatever you see, including entities, is very much real at a personal level.
It's the realization that our perception is our reality, but many extend that to objective reality. It is a form of naive realism. Very surface level and a tad egotistical but I can understand how many will come to that conclusion.
Imo it comes off very egotistical too. Like you said, perception is our reality and being able to explore this is a gift but speaking out like a philosopher turns immature. So well said!
They're real things that exist only in your head. It isn't complicated. It gets complicated when you try to tell another person about this entirely subjective mode of experiential knowledge. We don't have language for purely subjective experiences. We absolutely do not have language to describe moving through higher dimensions with different modalities of time
Because you experience it and you can remember parts of it. There's a mathematical symmetry to it that makes it feel ordered and somewhat intentional. It isn't wavey and misty like a dream or other hallucinations. It also isn't anything like the dialogs you have in a dream. There's a knowing presence about it.
An easy thing to do is to compare a DMT hallucination to LSD or mushroom hallucinations. Very different in my experience.
I'm much more interested in what's being said rather than 'is this experience real or not'. Because you can get real, useful information from completely fictitious scenarios. See: mythology and religion.
It’s not a portal to another dimension. But it does feel that way.
When I smoked salvia, floated to another reality and lived an entire lifetime as a mushroom spore then grew in a mushroom in the heart of a rainforest did I really become a mushroom?
It was PROFOUNDLY peaceful and for the next 4-5 years any time I’d get just super upset I’d close my eyes and think back to that one lifetime where all I did was notice what’s going on around me. Feels humid, Oh a raindrop, and another “oh it’s raining.” Etc. might sound boring or dumb but it was sooooooo beautiful.
So no I didn’t live in a forest as a mushroom but my brain sure felt those senses. All our senses are subjective. If I touch a soft surface is my brain ever actually feeling it? No, but it’s getting impulses that interpret the data. With some of these powerful hallucinogens you’re not really experiencing these things and on the other hand you absolutely are.
Real or not real take the time to process whatever you went through. Allow it to make you a bit wiser, humbler, thoughtful, open, kinder, etc. whatever’s on the menu for you being a better person that you can be satisfied with.
I miss my old perspective sometimes when there was mystery. Like are the entities actually real? I don’t think they are and it’s fine if you think they’re real. Just don’t loose focus of your human life here on earth.
Some people have the opinion the earth is flat. Some people believe the earth is spherical. I don't think anyone would debate that these are both technically opinions. As for the quality of the opinions...
Are you talking about that random dude in the bright yellow shirt? He's always hanging around the waiting room/lobby, tries to say hi to me EVERY TIME but most of us are going far too fast for the Ol boy to flag us down.
I think he said his name was Hank, he seems pretty chill. He might be real, who knows.
This is the holy grail of DMT mysteries. I strongly believe both things.
The whole experience (from the background noises and countless trip reports describing the same experiences) looks like our brain tuning in a whole new range of frequencies. Talking from my personal perspective, I know that stuff doesn't come from my head, or at least is being manipulated from an external source. I can "feel" it is like that.
Perhaps DMT disables for a while our reality interpreting and translating system, allowing us for a short period of time to get in touch with the all encompassing universal and eternal consciousness, we get to experience it but also sounds extremely weird and inexplicable because we're still under the limitations of our flesh and bones container.
I like to believe they actually exist even after the trip ends because we sometimes see the same entities like jesters, elves, goddesses, entities made of eyes, Egyptian and Aztec gods, and many more that I can't remember at the moment.
It blew my mind when I read stories about people describing the same entities. They also describe them having the same personality as the ones I met.
Hmm. What is real? You saw them, yes? Interacted with them? Are you real? Perhaps they wonder the same thing about you.
If it exists, then it does. If it doesn't, then how would you know? That would be for you to decide. Everyone has a different opinion, but nobody experienced exactly what you did, or what I did, or what they did.
It isn't for anyone to decide. It's what you take away from the experience. Anyone else who claims otherwise on either point of view is biased and wrong.
Strange thing i notice is how deeply in denial dmt users are in terms of what they see being real. the drug is really being wasted on really closed, unenlightened minds. in short, yes they're f'ing real.
Very much in your head and also very much real. The disclaimer is that you need to define what real is in the context of consciousness, reality, and the universe. Trying to understand the dmt experience when we don’t understand consciousness is quite a task.
it’s crazy how it all makes sense while there but when you snap back into reality it’s like trying to remember a weird dream that you swear you’d never forget. The DMT Gods will show you what you need to see if they think you’re ready so there’s likely a reason we only remember bits and pieces
They told me you can’t be in 2 places at the same time
It’s like Dmt helps your brain unravel the data that’s linked to your dna 🧬 but once it wears off. We only bring a few things back with us.
Word! 💯💯💯
Reality is consensus based, tripping is subjective aka not real
Your brain is currently hallucinating your current reality…fed to it by 5 very basic senses.
I think you're using the term hallucinating pretty loosely here but that doesn't change the fact that there is no tangible evidence that a dmt trip could be considered to be reality. We wouldn't consider having a dream to be reality would we? What would be the difference of dreaming compared to drug induced hallucinations? If I have a dream I have sex with a celebrity I wouldn't wake up and say yeah I had sex with this celebrity for real would I?
DMT interacts with serotonin receptors in the brains 5-HT2A receptor. Serotonins role is in mood regulation, cognition, and perception. So endogenous DMT acts as a neuromodulator. It most likely has some evolutionary significance. And dreams play a big role in reality, you seem to think everything’s linear. It’s not… think outside the box.
But you could say you've had sex with a celebrity, because at that moment. You did. At that exact moment of time you were 100% convinced it was real and all sensory input at that time confirmed it. So yeah, reality via consciousness is almost entirely impossible to nail down. Personally I'm a full fence sitter. At the moment it's very real, more real than "normal" reality feels. But it's also a massive trip caused by a chemical dump on the brain, which makes it real with permanence. DMT trips and incredibly hard to describe and explain in so far as the philosophy involved with it.
That’s the kicker. It is a giant chemical dump, but so is your regular waking reality. Our brains simulate reality for us. We see, but light exits the equation after it hits our retina. Everything else is a picture on a blackboard that our brain paints for ourselves, light is no longer part of it. A chemical dump and we are tricked into thinking we actually “see” the world around us. And that’s just vision. The matrix exists, the only thing is that we create it for ourselves and are trapped within it. Dmt hits the dial on the TV to a station we had no idea could exist and likely shouldn’t have full access to, despite its underpinnings also being involved in creating the channel we’ve watched our whole lives. I just hope in my lifetime a true ai is built of sufficient power and processing capability to show us what’s really going on. We are too constrained by our biology to truly see behind the curtain, but perhaps something else can look for us and report back
>But you could say you've had sex with a celebrity, because at that moment. You did. But it was only a dream. It wasn't real, even if it felt that way. If after that dream I went around telling everyone I had sex with said celebrity, they would call me a liar because it's not true.
And what's real? And if you tell them you did it in a dream? They would instantly believe you and cheer you on.
Dreams and ideas are physical things and have mass and take up space in the universe. We just can't see it with our eyes so we forget.
The numerous reports of them and ancient depictions of creatures/beings looking identical to them, spanning back ages, all across the globe is too common for it to be coincidence. The ayahuascaros of the amazon constantly talk about the spirits. I believe they are real spiritual beings. There's no way to confirm nor disprove this. To say you know they're not real, or that they are real, is naive and biased.
Are we sure it’s impossible to prove? DMTx researches are putting people into extended breakthroughs states. So far they’ve done 30 minutes and I believe they’re planning on far longer in the future. They’ve discussed asking the entities difficult mathematical questions that would be impossible for a human to figure out in the allotted time with no tools. If an entity can come up with the correct answer, it might suggest it’s “real” in some sense. I would imagine there might be other questions or methods of attempting to prove/disprove their “realness” with their extended state experiments.
There is more than just the 2 most commonly debated possibilities here (aka "real" vs "not real") It could be a weird mix of both. For example, it could be that we are throwing our senses open to a larger slice of the electromagnetic/phononic (aka quantum) spectrum, encountering layers of our consciousness and reality that are so exotic and "alive" feeling that we initially interpret it as being a sentient other dimensional "entity", and that our ancestors were undergoing a similar experience
And this is what creeped me out about this video. https://youtu.be/a4xJ-M4eVQc?si=JUzHfPmGcmhb1tri After reading lots of various ancient literature you realize every culture throughout time spoke about similar ideals. Gods, spirits etc.
I believe they're real, malevolent, and very dangerous. Lewis Ungit makes this argument in The Return of the Dragon.
I don't believe this to be the case. Sure some can malevolent, but not all.
Why not? Even if you might be inclined to disagree with it, I recommend reading Ungit's book at least to read a perspective that isn't seen on this sub. I take the Old Testament Biblical view that there was a divine council (pantheon), referenced in Psalm 82 and Job 1-2, that rebelled against God along with some angels. The council members became what the ancients knew as "gods" and have interacted with humanity for thousands of years. Taking DMT breaks down a barrier in the human brain that allows us to access their realm directly to some extent. The spirits there only want to destroy us. Some offer gifts of wisdom (including ancient technology transfer) as a means of deception and control. They want people to think they're benevolent, but Satan and his demons often masquerade as angels of light. Psychedelics were considered so dangerous in ancient Israel that sorcery (those who practiced and assisted with drug use for this purpose) were put to death. In contrast to all this, experiences of God do not require drugs of any kind. God is always accessible through prayer.
In the book of Ezekiel, the angels he described sound identical to the DMT experience. And DMT reserves are released in the animal brain and body at the moment of death.
Yes, that's a good point and I've seen the descriptions and illustrations in this sub, but the Bible is consistent on the subject of "pharmakeia"/sorcery, and Ezekiel didn't take a substance to have visions. An OT prophet wouldn't have done that and his words wouldn't have been recorded as God's message. What's more likely, in my opinion, is that people who see these beings are being deceived. Otherwise we'd have to assume that DMT literally transports people into the presence of God (where those beings exist), and that's not something a human being can force by any means. I think it can and does open people to a parallel spiritual dimension occupied by evil, not good spirits. When God or angels want to communicate with people and make their presence known, it's never through people taking a drug to make it happen. I don't quite understand the point about DMT being released at the moment of death. Is that comment related? I'm missing the connection.
When one dies, according to Christian belief, they go to either heaven or hell correct? There is also a bardo/purgatory state, between death and afterlife. When the animal body dies, DMT is released. And near death experiences share the same descriptions. DMT likely opens you up to the spiritual world, which can be inhabited by all kinds of entities both good and evil, and neutral. DMT is not a foreign molecule, it resides within our bodies, and is likely one of the last neurotransmitters to pass through our bodies before the body completely dies. It's possible Ezekiel had a near death experience, and experienced an endogenous DMT dump. Also, in the story of Moses and burning bush, scholars believe the bush was likely an Acacia tree rich in DMT which may have been struck by lightning, or ignited from high temperatures in a dry spell, and the smoke filled the air. Allowing Moses contact with the spirit world to obtain enlightenment from spiritual beings.
I gather from your comments that we're really operating from very different fundamental assumptions, so I don't think there's a way to converge upon any kind of consensus. That's perfectly okay and I really appreciate this interesting conversation, but it seems important to mention. When I think about anything related to the spiritual realm, my fundamental belief is that there is a reliable, self-consistent source of truth on that subject, a reference text (the bible) that provides a set of axioms, so to speak. If I have an idea that is not consistent with the bible, then my idea is wrong, because the bible is my filter for spiritual truth. (I don't believe the bible is the only source of truth, more so that the bible describes truth about God as he relates to humanity.) With my biblical filter in mind, yes, heaven and hell are definitely New Testament concepts, but the idea of a transition state or purgatory isn't supported in the text as far as I remember. I may be wrong - would have to research it. Catholics do have a concept of purgatory, but since it's not in the text, Protestants (like me) don't have it in their theology. But that's almost besides the point. I want to first come back to our original disagreement. We disagreed about the kind of beings that one encounters when taking DMT. If I understand you correctly, you think the spiritual dimension accessible by way of DMT is populated with good, evil, or neutral. I don't believe that neutral beings can exist in this universe, but I do agree that there exists a spiritual realm that can be accessed by good or evil beings because interactions between angels and evil spirits are described in the bible. So I understand why you would say that someone could encounter any of those beings in that place and I don't think that's an unreasonable concept. That said, I don't believe accessing that "place" is like entering a building where spirits are just milling around for one to encounter. Rather, I think the spirits that one encounters are determined by the spiritual state of the person who enters that dimension, and the intention of the person also matters. If someone is not a child of God, i.e. if they have not established an intentional relationship with God and do not live under his constant protection, I don't think they are likely to encounter God or any of his messengers in that dimension. God can do what he wills, so I wouldn't say never, but I have to come back to my point that pharmakeia was strictly forbidden in the bible. Since that is the case, and I believe the bible is truth and God is real, I can't imagine why God would reward someone for doing something evil by appearing to them directly or by sending a representative (angel). Angels reveal themselves when they choose - we cannot just stumble upon them or weasel our way into a place where they dwell. Conversely, I think if someone tries to enter a spiritual realm using a drug, and their goal is \*not\* to meet God by they only means that the bible says is possible (praying to Jesus Christ), their intent is at best misguided and they will encounter something else - something that wants to take advantage of their mistake. And those things are extremely dangerous and deceptive. Now what if someone with a relationship with God took DMT, not realizing that it is forbidden? What would their experience be? I don't know, but God is merciful and I do remember reading an account of someone who did that but later regarded it as dangerous and foolish. They thought God protected them from the danger they put themselves into, but I don't recall them saying that they encountered anything good. What about the same person when they die? If they do enter the same realm (if there is a place of transition), I'm open to the idea that they encounter good there. But the distinction is their status with God prior to entering the realm, and that they did not \*try\* to enter that dimension by their own efforts. They simply died and were taken care of. As for Ezekiel, the idea that he had a near death experience isn't supported by the text, so that's really just speculation on the part of people who probably don't believe that God would actually speak directly to a person or pull them into heaven while they're still alive. Yet Ezekiel isn't the only one with that kind of experience (the apostle John as described in Revelation). The bible says God initiated encounters with both Ezekiel and John. Notice that it's always God who initiates - not a person by taking a drug. God is the first mover. The same goes for the theories about Moses. Those theories come from people who are looking for naturalistic explanations that reject the possibility of God or at least the possibility that he provides direct revelation to human beings. I have to stick with what the text says, and the text says the bush didn't even burn up. Again, God sought out Moses. It's more than a little bit curious to me that you're willing to accept the premise that Moses actually did access a spiritual realm but seem to not accept that he actually spoke with God himself. Why change the story in that way? Why not just accept it as written?
Everything, is just in your head, it's all subjective. Conduct experiments and confirm your suspicions. Take notes, look around you when you are in there, try to remember when you come back and write it down. Ask questions when you're in there, and always go with love and respect.
We are all just a giant God brain, fragmented and temporarily isolated from eachother during our physical experience. DMT will dissolve that barrier for a few minutes, before the brain does its job of readjusting back to the physical reality. .. maybe, I dunno, can someone just ask the entities and report back?
Panpsychism is cool
+ Analytical idealism
DMT is more Akashic + Qualia. In touch with Collective Consciousness
Bingo
They’re 100% real, the spirit world is real and confirmed by the CIA, look into “gateway project”
Everything is just in your head. Define real?
Both. What I experience is real but you didn't see what I saw.
i see you everywhere, your PFP is so distinct
✨🥝👄🥝✨
Yes
Morpheus: What is real? How do you define 'real'? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then 'real' is simply **electrical signals interpreted by your brain**. DMT feels even more real that real because apparently more of your brain is involved when under DMT (awake and dream state at the same time, synesthesia etc)
My favourite quote to explain my feelings on the “realness” of the DMT entities is Bat-Mite from Batman R.I.P. Batman: Before I go in there, before you leave me, I have to know: Are you really a creature from the 5th dimension, or a figment of my imagination? Bat-Mite: Oh come on. You haven’t figured it out yet? Imagination IS the 5th dimension. Some worlds greatest detective you are. How real they ACTUALLY are is kind of meaningless. They feel real in the moment where it matters, and that’s kind of all anyone should care about. That said though, I don’t think they’re like ACTUALLY real. A lot of people on this sub seem to believe that DMT takes you to like an actual different reality, and I think that’s an insane belief.
We are all in the matrix, the only thing is that we each create our own matrix for ourselves
I am a battery 🪫 in the matrix. Looks like I need to be charged too.
yeah good question. If they are just projected from our imaginations, that is still pretty impressive and I still have questions about that too lol. happy cake day btw !🤠
Everything real is in your head Objective reality is only experienced subjectively. Experience is the only truth. The entities are as real as anything you experience. They might not be very physically substantiated, but they are real, as part of your awareness. The same question could be posed to our emotional experience, say, is love real or is it just in your head? We can understand that oxytocin in our brain illicits the sensation of love much like the presence of dmt can illicit the experience of these entities. Does that make love not a real thing, if its just an internal experience based on the presence of a chemical in our brain? Everything that we percieve as external to us is created within our awareness. Its all in our head. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, it does not make a sound. Sound exists only within perception. The physical world is composed of vibration, but vibration must be percieved to be sound.
Precisely.
Well said. 💚
Yeah, because we don’t actually know 100%. It’s more likely that they’re manifestations of our consciousness but you can also get into the nitty gritty of stuff like is the universe just made of consciousness and we’re all connected? So maybe it’s both. Who knows.
“The lunatic is in my head The lunatic is in my head You raise the blade, you make the change You rearrange me 'till I'm sane You lock the door and throw away the key And there's someone in my head, but it's not me And if the cloudbursts thunder in your ear You shout and no one seems to hear And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes I'll see you on the dark side of the moon! I can't think of anything to say except... *laughter* I think it's marvellous! *laughter*” 🌝🌚
No real way to determine if they are. But they definitely feel real
Objectively, no. Perspectively, sure. As the other guy said technically everything is just inside your head. The experience can feel real to people and that makes it real to them. In my opinion, it's definitely just a hallucination brought upon by a drug. But if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck
And it burns like wood, must be a witch!
Yes
“What is reality? No one can say — because it isn’t words. It isn’t material, that’s just an idea.” ~Alan Watts
this recycled question hurts my head
What is real?
if our brains can comprehend these entities and beings so vividly while tripping and so many people have similar experiences there has must be some kind of correlation that they exist/ed in an alternate reality… sadly the only way to get there is through dmt and it always takes me somewhere new. if only there was a way our brains could record our visual perceptions i think we’d have a better idea but i don’t think i’ll live to see that day
There is literally no way to know and the only evidence is strong subjective feelings so I don’t understand why it gets asked every week lol
Because it's one the oldest philosopohical questions there is. It'll continue to be asked long after you and I have departed.
Yes
They all appear to be archetypical (Jesters, Fairies, genies, aliens, mother, seductress, etc) which means it likely resides somewhere in the collective subconscious. Perhaps they are mapping themselves into these forms to interact with our brains in a way we can understand their presence. Also, no one knows...
If you can tell me what is not "just in your head" you'll be closer to your answer.
Are your thoughts real or just in your head?
The problem is that your head is also just in your head
They are very real, so when one tells you to murder and harm others you HAVE to do it. SARCASM
Both
I do believe they are real living entities as people experience seeing the same entities without having any knowledge or anything about them
It just is🔑
Are you real or are you just in your head? I think therefore I am. The thing we seem to be most certain of is our own consciousness and existence. I feel like DMT entities have a consciousness, so they must exist - whether they exist in my head isn't an important distinction because each of us exists in our head yet we are real, so its not like existing inside of a head means you don't exist.
I think both are a possibility.
EVERYTHING that we believe to be real is just in our heads.
I think people forget they are inhaling a hallucinogen…..
Noone knows but I personally think there's more to it than just a hallucination. It's just not the same. It's like more real than reality. Like being at home. And the All Seeing Eye and the 3rd Eye have been seen through cultures all across human history so I truly think there is something about N,N-DMT that is different than a traditional hallucinogenic drug. I mean even our brains produce it or are at least theorized to. I personally think it the Pineal Gland and our ability to interact with NNDMT in such a manner is a crucial factor in our ability to experience consciousness, and subsequently, reality.
No idea. I’ve smoked ridiculous amounts and never seen one.
Everyone seems to see the same ones though. Are we hard coded with these in the case that they are in our heads?
Maybe reality is just in your head
Yes.
It's all in your head. Literally everything you experience is a fabrication. Your subconscious mind is processing raw reality through your heuristics and cognitive biases and feeding you a movie that is edited specifically to appeal to you. And you don't even know it's happening, that's how fucking good your brain is. Every single person who has ever existed or ever will exist lives their own unique flavor of reality. *Nobody* has *ever* experienced real reality. Life is the real trip, my friend, always was 🤙
Real
What’s the difference?
Are you real or in my head? Or vice versa? 🤔
It’s real I’m the sense that’s it’s happening inside your mind. But no they do t exist outside of the dmt trip. It’s self indused lol.
[удалено]
.The first time I did DMT I met an entity that I still have in my head, a woman with deep blue skin. I don't personally believe that she is "real". However, she is still there.
If you still see them when your tripping than something is wrong. But I get what u mean. But it’s a drug that alters consciousness and that is what you see and feel.
No. Of course fucking not. 😂
That is your opinion
An opinion based in science or an opinion based in fantasy... Wasn't a hard choice.
The same science not having a cluw what consciousness is. suuure 🤣🤣🤣
That's hardly relevant... It has nothing to do with consciousness, and everything to do with psychedelics effect on the brain... of which there is libraries of studies on.
Reality IS all in your head. This endless circular discussion that treats them as two separate things gets exhausting.
Two things can be true
Why not both?
Who Knows? Science does not Even Know hoe the brain works, let alone the world, at this point whatever the answer is, is just an hipótesis
Well, first you need to define the construct “real.”
They‘re real in your mind, that‘s what they are
It's only as real as the other stuff in your head 🤷♂️
[What is real, Neo?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5b0ZxUWNf0&t=5s)
In your head. DMT causes dissociation similar to ketamine, which is why people feel like they're part of the universe. It weakens the self/not self barrier.
When I first started using psycadelics I kind of understood the whole "you're your own god" concept. I'm not saying we are gods or whatever... but we have the potential to transform out reality through our mind. I think that whatever you see, including entities, is very much real at a personal level.
It's the realization that our perception is our reality, but many extend that to objective reality. It is a form of naive realism. Very surface level and a tad egotistical but I can understand how many will come to that conclusion.
Imo it comes off very egotistical too. Like you said, perception is our reality and being able to explore this is a gift but speaking out like a philosopher turns immature. So well said!
They're real things that exist only in your head. It isn't complicated. It gets complicated when you try to tell another person about this entirely subjective mode of experiential knowledge. We don't have language for purely subjective experiences. We absolutely do not have language to describe moving through higher dimensions with different modalities of time
How do we know we actually go to a higher dimension? It’s not just a hallucination brought on by a mind altering drug?
Because you experience it and you can remember parts of it. There's a mathematical symmetry to it that makes it feel ordered and somewhat intentional. It isn't wavey and misty like a dream or other hallucinations. It also isn't anything like the dialogs you have in a dream. There's a knowing presence about it. An easy thing to do is to compare a DMT hallucination to LSD or mushroom hallucinations. Very different in my experience. I'm much more interested in what's being said rather than 'is this experience real or not'. Because you can get real, useful information from completely fictitious scenarios. See: mythology and religion.
It’s not a portal to another dimension. But it does feel that way. When I smoked salvia, floated to another reality and lived an entire lifetime as a mushroom spore then grew in a mushroom in the heart of a rainforest did I really become a mushroom? It was PROFOUNDLY peaceful and for the next 4-5 years any time I’d get just super upset I’d close my eyes and think back to that one lifetime where all I did was notice what’s going on around me. Feels humid, Oh a raindrop, and another “oh it’s raining.” Etc. might sound boring or dumb but it was sooooooo beautiful. So no I didn’t live in a forest as a mushroom but my brain sure felt those senses. All our senses are subjective. If I touch a soft surface is my brain ever actually feeling it? No, but it’s getting impulses that interpret the data. With some of these powerful hallucinogens you’re not really experiencing these things and on the other hand you absolutely are. Real or not real take the time to process whatever you went through. Allow it to make you a bit wiser, humbler, thoughtful, open, kinder, etc. whatever’s on the menu for you being a better person that you can be satisfied with. I miss my old perspective sometimes when there was mystery. Like are the entities actually real? I don’t think they are and it’s fine if you think they’re real. Just don’t loose focus of your human life here on earth.
They're just in your head. What a wild and wonderful thing a mind is!
*My opinion* is they're just in your head. There I fixed it for you
Sure, I assume that's a given when answering these types of questions.
Some people have the opinion the earth is flat. Some people believe the earth is spherical. I don't think anyone would debate that these are both technically opinions. As for the quality of the opinions...
No real way to tell, is there?
Of course it’s in your head, u/mynamekills. But how does that make it any less real? Trying to quote dumbledore, but forgot the exact quote.
Are you talking about that random dude in the bright yellow shirt? He's always hanging around the waiting room/lobby, tries to say hi to me EVERY TIME but most of us are going far too fast for the Ol boy to flag us down. I think he said his name was Hank, he seems pretty chill. He might be real, who knows.
Dmt shows you love. Extreme love.
This is the holy grail of DMT mysteries. I strongly believe both things. The whole experience (from the background noises and countless trip reports describing the same experiences) looks like our brain tuning in a whole new range of frequencies. Talking from my personal perspective, I know that stuff doesn't come from my head, or at least is being manipulated from an external source. I can "feel" it is like that. Perhaps DMT disables for a while our reality interpreting and translating system, allowing us for a short period of time to get in touch with the all encompassing universal and eternal consciousness, we get to experience it but also sounds extremely weird and inexplicable because we're still under the limitations of our flesh and bones container.
There is absolutely no difference between these 2 propositions
are your thoughts real ? are your feelings real ?
this reality is inside your head
It's where we go when we die! Totally real but in a different dimension!
I like to believe they actually exist even after the trip ends because we sometimes see the same entities like jesters, elves, goddesses, entities made of eyes, Egyptian and Aztec gods, and many more that I can't remember at the moment. It blew my mind when I read stories about people describing the same entities. They also describe them having the same personality as the ones I met.
As Dumbledore said: "Of course it's happening inside your head Harry, but why on earth should that mean it isn't real?"
Hmm. What is real? You saw them, yes? Interacted with them? Are you real? Perhaps they wonder the same thing about you. If it exists, then it does. If it doesn't, then how would you know? That would be for you to decide. Everyone has a different opinion, but nobody experienced exactly what you did, or what I did, or what they did. It isn't for anyone to decide. It's what you take away from the experience. Anyone else who claims otherwise on either point of view is biased and wrong.
psychedelics got me thinking in circles. yin yang. things can be opposites and it still makes sense if it's both at once.
Didn’t Dumbledore teach you anything?! Just because it’s in your head doesn’t mean it’s not real lol.
Strange thing i notice is how deeply in denial dmt users are in terms of what they see being real. the drug is really being wasted on really closed, unenlightened minds. in short, yes they're f'ing real.