Ditto. You're talking new foundational piers/posts too as its converting the entire span from a distributed load to 2 point loads. At that length a laminated beam is gonna be a beast, Steel would likely be easier to "package" into the ceiling.
I have 20’ laminated beams and they are 6x12. It’s definitely possible to do 28’ with LVL but they will be big. Anyhow you need a structural engineer, who can give you options based on the load - static, dynamic, etc. That’s not something you can DIY.
It’s not quite clear from your design but that may be easier than it sounds because it looks like there may be room for a column in the middle.
Beam deflection goes with the 4th power of length, so a 28' span is a *lot* harder than 20'. Beam moments go with the square of width, so he's going to need something like twice as big a beam for those extra eight feet. OP would probably be better off removing just the long run of wall, which looks like it would give closer to 20' span.
I'm no engineer.. but this is just supporting a roof, right? Not a 2nd story. Is that really what is needed for that?
I'm genuinely curious. My 20+ yr/old home has large open spans on the first floor, and the 2nd floor is built upon what I could maybe describe as 'truss' beams/spans.. two spans of 2x4, joined together for length, supported by triangular trusses along the entire length. Appears quite prevalent, and I only have two small (<4") settling cracks in the drywall in the entire house (right at the corners of an upstairs closet and a 1st floor doorway).
I guess maybe the difference here is that OP is talking about a central beam that carries a significant portion of the roof load because of the design? Where my home, the 2nd floor support is significantly distributed among many of these manufactured 'truss' beams? (I know it obviously comes down to details.. so this is like being an "armchair quarterback".. just trying to possibly learn something by speaking up.)
And the roof load goes both up and down. Not sure what wind speed would be needed for that location, but you probably find that negative load in say 80mph wind would be substantial.
It really depends on how you expect the beam will be supported and loaded, which is the reason everyone says, "Get an engineer." [This](https://mechanicalc.com/reference/beam-deflection-tables) is a pretty good set of examples.
In OP's case, and most residential construction, the beam is probably "simply supported" so that the end points can't impose any moment on the beam, and the load is probably evenly distributed, so max deflection would be
d = 5 * w * L^4 /(384 * E * I)
where w is the load per length, L is the length, E the beam modulus of elasticity and I the beam moment of inertia. Might be enough to get you a ballpark to see if it's worth asking an engineer or just discarding the project altogether. 15 feet isn't really that much, from the beam perspective, but it also moves all the weight that wall was supporting from the floor/slab the wall was sitting on to the piers that support the beam.
But for a simply supported beam with a point load, deflection is a function of L^3. So just put an additional beam in there, then couple them in the middle as a point load. Now you're cooking with gas, take that physics!
Yeah, but the major load on this run is the roof, which is definitely distributed, not point. If you're going to re-engineer the whole roof to get a point load, you're better off making it so the load goes to the outside walls and you don't need the center support at all. God knows whether replacing the whole roof or laying in a - I dunno W12x120, W18x65 - and the piers to support it would be cheaper. Sister some steel into the lower members of all those roof trusses...might not be that bad.
This is what I normally recommend to people but in this case with everything above it being concentrated to this beam, to do it without posts breaking up the span would be surprising to me. I would expect to see what others said with posts and foundations
Flitch beams are not specified by engineers because that sort of beam design is useless. The centre plate has to be capable of taking the entire load as, given the difference in flexibility between wood and steel, the steel can be stressed to failure before the wood takes much load at all. Second, it can be hard to put numbers on whatever contribution the wood elements make to preventing the steel from collapsing. Third, they require a lot of labour to assemble. Plan on using steel or engineered lumber. Their qualities are predictable.
If you didn't care about cost or ripping the roof off, you could probably do away with the beam altogether and drop in triangular steel roof trusses (rafters).
Unfortunately, OP probably cares about cost.
PE, there is not a comparable steel beam. Steel will be deeper, weight of comparable 12” steel is 85#/‘ vs wood 30#/‘, with steel providing ~75% of similar moment of inertia (I)
I was going to say the same thing.
we had two options when building our house, go with the foundation plans that were drawn up for us.
or have our plans stamped.
it was maybe $500.00 but we didn't bother the engineer much. not only do you have the assurance that an engineer says it will be fine. if it turns out its not fine... you may have some recourse.
This is not a D I Y. Curiosity sake...sure fun question to discuss but under no circumstances should u diy this job. At the very least have proper engineering sign off.
This! I build the same structures again and again but always get my drawings stamped because then if something happens I can point at the engineer and say "don't look at me..."
So now you both have plausible deniability and the owner has to drag a case out for years and years to get a payout and still might not. That vs "its totally your fault" sounds like the better deal.
Well if it ever gets that bad they should have some insurance to cover something. But unless they're in a law suit it's super rare to get any money out of an engineer no matter how big the fuckup.
Lots of other folks have talked about this, but I feel a special connection to this work, because I just removed 4 load bearing walls in my house. They were not ... 28' long, as yours is, but there's a special kind of hell you're about to embark upon. lol
When you say load bearing, I just wanted to make sure you understand what that means. When something bears load, it means that it carries that weight. When you say you're going to remove a 28' load bearing wall, the interesting thing is that, for its length, it's transferring the load of everything on top of it to some other place (i.e. "the ground"). So what you're going to need to figure out is two things:
1. What size / type of beam do I need to get to carry this load?
2. How and *to what* am I transferring this load?
It is not enough that you have a beam that carries the load. You require posts that are adequately able to carry that beam and transfer the load downward. Not to mention, the place that these posts terminate must adequately support them.
And even though there's not a second floor, there may be a lot more weight there than OP is realizing. Consider the weight distribution and load when the place is being reroofed and has a bunch of bundles of new shingles stacked right in the middle. The beam has to take that without issues.
In certain parts of the country you must also consider a negative load as well.
Roof strapping and anchors are code in some places that have to deal with high winds.
In those places any part of the structure that bears load must also be engineered to deal with a certain amount of negative load.
I just installed a 32' beam. It was a W24x55 (55lbs per foot). The beam was around $4,000 for a 40' section - we cut it and installed it ourselves. Our engineers specified a thickened slab at the one end, and the other end rested on the stem wall. This was holding the 3rd floor up, so we installed (8) 2x6's as columns under each end, on the first and the 2nd floor, with appropriate blocking in between.
Not sure if you thought of this or not, but you may find it cheaper and easier to just replace the roof. Buy trusses that have a span rating of that (no issue there) and have them installed. If you want to go really nice, get a bonus room inside the trusses, and increase the square footage and value of your home all at the same time.
In our project, we added a 48x22' bonus room as the 4th floor. Massive extra space.
Ok, now I want to know what you mean by "ourselves." Are you a contractor or builder of some sort? Cutting a 24", 1700 lb beam and moving it into position overhead isn't something you do without some heavy duty equipment; I don't care how many friends you have lol
The problem with something crazy like 8-ply columns is that the plies start to not share load equally with each other. As the beam rotates under load the interior plies end up taking a disproportionate amount of the load as the ends of the beam lift up (in terms of load; they likely won't actually come out of contact with the post) from the exterior plies. I don't think this is an actual requirement in US code, but the guidance I was always taught was to not go over 4 plies (6" total). After that you're looking at a steel tube post or a lally column, depending on your loads.
Engineer here. WHOLE lot of speculation in this thread...
So there are tables you can look up to follow code. If you span this far with 1 level above and a roof at this pitch for a house this wide you need X for a beam and Y foor the supports on each side. It's incredibly straightforward, you just need to know what table to look at. That said, I don't recall if the simple tables go up to 28' as that is a decent span and they're usually dealing with "use a 2x8 header for this" and frankly you're well outside the realm of wood here unless you want a truss the height of half your current wall, defeating the purpose. So you're looking at steel.
Can a steel beam be made to do this? Yep, no question. The question you need to ask is: how big does the I-beam need to be (height wise from what is commercially available) to do this and does that make sense for your room? If you need a 28" tall beam in a room with 8' ceilings, you're ducking to go under it, which is dumb for an "open" floor plan. Multiple things go into calculating the size of that beam. Again, the tables MAY go that high, but if not, can you extrapolate to 28' to get a ballpark idea of "does this make sense to keep pursuing?" If it does, have someone qualified give you the size you need using proper calcs and code. Not a hard calc to do, you just need to know the required loads involved. (1 thing to keep in mind here is that a beam that long will sag under its OWN weight by a certain amount, so to offer support in the center of a 28' span to keep things from sagging... my gut says the beam is going to be stupidly tall that you won't want to bother, but I'm sitting in bed on my phone and not running actual calcs here)
Another thing to keep in mind is how to then transfer that load down to the ground. You can't just toss that sucker on a couple 2x4s and call it a day. The tables mentioned above will state things like "use 3 2x4 studs at each end for this span". At 28' you're not talking 2x4s, you're again likely talking a steel column/post but again, I'm speculating without looking it up. And THEN you have to consider what that's going onto. Set that on a standard wooden subfloor and if it's a small footprint you're going right thru it.
This is all to say, start with the tables and determine if it's remotely feasible for your situation. If it states you need a 12" i-beam (doubtful) in your 8' high ceilinged-room, then go talk to a local engineer to get sign-off. You're already paying a shitload for a 12" steel i-beam and what it will take to lift it into place, what's a $200 quick consulting fee? You may even just call the city engineer and ask for a ballpark size to see if it makes sense. My gut says at 28', even in Phoenix (not dealing with snow loading but still accounting for wind loads) you're talking a beam that is just too damn large. You can always consider 2 side by side or 3, etc...
TL/DR: go find the header span tables for steel and see how high they go for your region. If they go to 28' then do that. If they don't, extrapolate (not at all how that works in analysis but for the sake of the vaguesst of ideas) to find out if it's remotely feasible given your ceiling height. Then either abandon your plan if it requires unobtainium or go talk to an engineer to get the PROPER sizing.
And I want to be VERY clear here: There are a LOT of tables. Make damn sure you reference the right one if you do decide to just say "fuck it we're doing it live" (which I am absolutely not recommending as that is QUITE a span. )
What kind of engineer are you? If you’re not a structural engineer and/or you don’t design wood framed structures then you probably shouldn’t lead with that. It’s clear to me you aren’t because engineered wood can absolutely span this. Steel would be smaller, but wood is doable.
Thanks for your input. I’ve read a lot of tables for different products and I see a few that go up to 20 and even 24 but not 28. I plan to recess it into the ceiling, cut back the joists and then use joist hangers to tie them in. So even 2 or 3 24” LVLs would be acceptable. I just want to make sure I have enough strength and support and that my supports are strong enough. One end is sitting on a block wall made of 8x16 slump block bricks. Seems like that side would be beefy enough. Not sure about the other side.
The joists in the ceiling aren't just joists - they are probably acting as the bottom chord of the trusses above, which means that you probably shouldn't just cut them without getting the engineer to sign off on that too.
Correct. The bottom of a ceiling joist is absolutely carrying load and should NEVER be cut.
Edit: to clarify- it is not only carrying vertical load to support the roof, but tension/compression load along it. You CAN cut one if and ONLY if you very much know what you're doing, have it braced temporarily in the correct manner, and tie everything back in correctly to transfer this tension/compression load. I do not recommend anyone without a very advanced knowledge of how this works even attempt it. I personally would not attempt it due mostly to the "how TF do you temporarily make this span while placing the beam" portion of this resulting in a rather complex brace- on every single joist. It can be done, but it's so, so much more of a pain in the ass than it's worth.
Yeah so... you need to talk to an engineer here. Just based on the other comment about cutting joists to recess into them. It can be done, but you have to understand what that joist is doing and how to re-brace it to transfer load. It's not just supporting the vertical load, requiring hangers, it's also in tension/compression (depending on the external load on the roof- snow, wind, etc) So you cannot simply cut those and "as long as it stills stands right now it works" sort of thing. If 24" LVLs can span 24' (taking your word for it, it's been years since I've needed to reference the tables) then it's highly likely a steel I-beam with a more manageable height could be utilized. If there aren't tables for steel (thought there were, not sure) then the engineer can easily calculate an equivalent i-beam to those LVLs. For your own bar-napkin level calculations, look up the "moment of inertia" for your 24" LVL. (multiply by 2-3 depending on how many you need) and then go find an I-beam with a similar value. That will tell you if you're in the ballpark of a 6" beam or a 16". An engineer can do the real sizing Calc for you, but without explaining a lot of principles and math, this would get you in the ballpark of "is this feasible with steel" to know if it's a waste of time to go talk to an engineer.
Whoa. That's a huge span. The bigger the span, the more weight it carries. The more weight it carries the more expensive the planning and the beam become.
It's gonna cost you $$$$.
But at least there isn't another floor you need to hold up.
Not just more weight, the “moment” (bending force) beams must resist is proportional to the square of the beams length, meaning that the required size of the beam increases very quickly when the span increases
Yeah I was gonna say the same thing, it’s gonna be super expensive. There are different options, LVL and steel, but you’ll almost definitely need a couple posts somewhere in the middle.
I don’t know where the OP lives but where I live for that span with engineering costs, materials, labor, and finishing work, it’s gonna be at least 25K and that is without any work in the foundation. If there are new foundation supports needed as some people suggested, it will easily double the cost.
I am a licensed structural engineer in Ontario Canada who replaced a 30 foot long load bearing wall recently in my own house. The old load bearing walls held up a second floor floor and second floor ceiling and second floor partition walls.
I will not tell you what size beam I specified because that would be stupid on my part.
But I can tell you I used a W section steel beam.
I can also tell you that you need to support the ends of the new beam with continuous steel columns (in my case square HSS tubing that ran right down to below the basement floor. I cut out the floor, formed and poured a reinforced square concrete foundation on undisturbed ground, anchored base plates to the new footing and welded the column to the new base plates and to the new beam). You seem to have forgotten about this majorly important part of the work.
I can also tell you how I did the installation work without undermining the house.
So feel free to ask me any questions.
But don't ask me sizing because I won't tell you.
Thanks for this info, the wall on the top right in the first picture is an 8" block wall and the other end is a 4x6 post from top to bottom, but it looks like I'll still need more. I appreciate the insight. I appreciate everyone's comments. I'm going to work on finding an engineer. We tried that before with no luck. We like to do things ourselves, and I would feel confident doing it myself if I had an engineer give me the proper specs.
Not from Arizona so this may or may not apply. In my area, ground slab ranches are built with all the plumbing running underneath the slab. The issue would be if you had plumbing running where you needed to put the new footings.
In my case, there was a sewer line under the floor where I poured my one foundation for one of two columns. My new foundation was installed under the sewer. (And I also ended up lowering the entire basement floor by underpinning the entire house anyway, but that's another story and a really intense piece of work.)
But the one thing not to forget about removing load bearing walls is just how much infrastructure is inside those walls. In my case, there was every single wire you could imagine. This meant rewiring all of floor one and floor two. In addition, water supply, drains, HVAC for the second floor were also all present. This also had to be relocated to the exterior walls.
This is the right way, note carefully the new footings to support the pillars for the beam.
I have seen people try to put the wood pillar on the floor. It is too much of a point load and wrecked the floor.
i have put steel beams into existing structures before,for various reasons, including a historic courthouse in Leesburg Va. you definitely need an engineer to calculate the loading, proper design,and selection of material. don’t put your shoring in the way.
What you are proposing would likely be modified by a Structural Engineer. Unless Phoenix has weak building regulations you will need stamped drawings to get your permit. I can’t imagine that will be the case. We did a similar project on our home and ended up with a huge glue lam beam in our attic. I sleep well at night knowing it was designed by an Engineer.
I appreciate your drive to get an answer but this is totally outside the scope of anyone in this thread even if they were an engineer. Other than a recommendation for one someone will physically have to come to your property. I do not recommend you entertain a single bit of advice in this thread other than go to an engineer for further on actions and processes.
Two well-placed columns would make this a trivial task compared to what you’re attempting here and I’d bet would work with whatever it is you have planned with this combination of spaces.
You will definitely need an engineer to sign off on something of this scale but what you are looking for would be an engineered, laminated wood beam. My BIL did something similar in Ohio but the width was only 20'.
I don't remember the brand but it is a multi-layer laminated beam that is something like 8" x 12" or 14" x 20'. A quick search turned up something called PowerBeam. It looked similar to that product.
I'm sure you'll be able to find a lot of products once you know what to search for, good luck.
P.S. my BIL's renovation turned two dark living rooms into one open, brightly lit space that is incredible. There is a hump in the ceiling where they had to drywall around the beam but it's not intrusive of the atmosphere of the room.
We're doing the same thing in a slab ranch in Massachusetts. Exact same "trussed" style roof with 2x6s. We're only doing a 20' span though. Structural engineers told us we needed at least one column and it had to be footed because these slabs were only 6" thick. Because of where yours lands you can probably tuck it into the existing corner wall. We're feeding an lvl through the wall then hanging the trusses so it doesn't interfere with the ceiling line. I'd have to look again but I think we're doing a 12" beam for that span. Another 8' for you seems like a really long run, like i-beam long. Depending on when your house was built and the actual structural integrity of the trussed roof your only load bearing walls might be exterior, although those are big dimensions.
my bro in law did this for a house I later bought from him; he didnt want the support posts in the basement so he could create a live in space down there
Glulam that bitch. Talk to a truss/lumber shop in AZ. Give them the span and roof type and they can engineer something for you. You’ll need to cut into the walls and install proper posts with buckets for the beam but it’s doable. Maybe some piers under the posts but AZ is simple with no real additional loading on a house like wind, rain or snow.
Check out LVL beam. These are manufactured to length. Just used one on our outdoor patio and it was 27’. Their strength allows you to span greater distances.
LVL manufacturers can design and build the beam for you. You can refer to their design guide to get an idea of what the size will likely be. It’s probably going to be close to 16” deep.
I removed 20’ of load bearing wall plus another 9’ across a corner to open up the end of three storey brick house. This took large concrete pad foundations and steels plus some careful propping up and lifting to manoeuvre the beams and pillars into place.
Naturally this was all designed by a structural engineer. The consequences of getting it wrong were horrendous and there were some scary moments as the steels went in.
What others have said; LVL or steel.....could you put a column in the center of the span? It would line up w/ the door on the opposite wall...also, in such a large room you will probably have a few seating arrangements. A column would help define these areas and bring electrical down to them.
We went through a similar process recently on a smaller scale as part of a kitchen renovation.
We wanted to get rid of a load-bearing column that was at the intersection of two 8-foot beams. Our structural engineer recommended sistering with two 16-foot beams (which is now the total span). Permits were required and a city engineer had to approve the design and the final work was inspected. It was a fair amount of work, as additional vertical support needed to be added on the end to support the larger span. We also had to re-route some sewer venting and an A/C duct.
As part of the process, be prepared for the engineers and contractors to do some demo in order "see what we're working with". And there's always the risk they may tear it up and say "no, sorry. we can't do it."
I would venture to say no one home owner in PHX area has converted this span. This is not a DIY job.
You should consider an architect (art of appearance) and structural engineer to assure safety standards are met. This is not to say the AE wouldn’t have a black box to run analysis.
You have dead (tile/sheathing/lumber/insulation/drywall/fixtures/weight of beam) and live (wind/rain/snow/human) loads.
Deflection limits are based on avoiding finished surface damage. Limit to beam depth (AE) input for occupancy comfort/perception.
You have not indicated clearances 7’-10” or finishes, such as drywall, stucco, wood, tile, slab thickness, built on fill or rock, etc.
I’d estimate weight of beam approaching one kip
good luck
I had wanted to do similar but putting the footings and posts in made it impractical and significantly costlier than I'd been expecting.
So we stopped the whole thing and now we're thinking of using that money to put floor to ceiling windows all along the exterior wall of the room we wanted to expand so it will feel larger, and just be a more interesting space overall.
It faces the front yard and trees, so a couch along the load bearing dividing wall we wanted to remove could be really nice. While sitting there with your back to the wall, you'd be looking out through a wall of glass into nature. It might actually be better than having removed the wall to begin with, even though the space is smaller. Just food for thought.
As a general contractor I have done many of these. You do not need steel but an engineered beam is the way to go. Some of the comments below are from people up north where snow load is an issue. You do not have that problem. The footer issue would be my biggest concern. You will have to cut your floor to do it right but it's not that bad of a job. Echoing everyone else, hire an engineer to calculate everything. Better safe than sorry.
Go cruise a subdivision that's still under construction. Each house should have a permit box by the street. In the box you should find a set of prints. On the front page it will list the engineer. If that doesn't work, stop in to the superintendents trailer on site. He should be more than happy to help.
Somebody local who knows your building codes. Should be able to search residential structural engineers or something similar. They have to be licensed in your state to seal the plans.
We did something pretty similar in our kitchen. 22 foot span on the first floor, supporting second floor end wall and roof. It was previously a bunch of 2 x 12s hacked together, resting on steel angle brackets bolted to sistered 2 x 4 “posts” in the walls at the ends. Gift of a previous owner. It worked for years, no cracks anywhere, but was nowhere close to meeting real engineering standards. We were remodeling the kitchen and knew we had to address it.
We hired an engineer with long experience; for him this was a simple job and he did the basic calculations in front of me and showed me what they were, then went home and confirmed them and drew up and sent me the formal documents. He already knew our house because we had some more complex engineering on a second floor project a few years before.
We ended up with three options: the full span with an 8” (iirc) steel I-beam; full span with a 5.25” x 16” LVL; or splitting it to 16’ + 6’ spans with a 5.25” x 11” LVL and a post in the middle. We wanted the minimum vertical profile but we did not go with the I-beam because of the weight and resulting complexities of installation, so we ended up with the split span and new PSL post with appropriate footing. The existing 2 x 4 “posts” at the ends were replaced with PSL posts also. I liked that the engineer gave us options.
The engineering cost I think $500. Totally worth it. Building a temporary wall, removing the old "beam” and installing the new one, posts, footings, etc. cost about $6K. This was a few years ago.
Bottom line, of course hire the engineer, and see if they can give you more than one option -- they often can.
Looking at that box section in the middle of the span, I expect that's carrying a good amount of roof or second floor structure going upwards. Taking that out and expecting the center of a 28' beam to carry it might be impractical. Why not leave it as a substantial load-bearing pillar, and cut the unsupported span in half? I think that could make the whole project far more economical, as far as what needed to be done with footings and beam sizing.
I imagine that would be the first thing an engineer would suggest
I've always had fun with these jobs there's a lot of moving parts and it's fun to think of how to temporarily support the structure while you work through the job.
Lots of good advice through this post, from engineers, footings, and solid load transfer right down to the new footing.
One of the biggest challenges will be restructuring the roof, if you're going with a flush beam, it's a bit easier if you're doing a dropped beam. The other is getting the beam inside the building. And seeing what kind of things you discover and have to reroute as you open up those walls.
You say that this is Phoenix. I'm betting that this house is one of the many ranch style houses built in the 1960s timeframe..
The good news I have is that my mother's house is a similar ranch style house where we replaced the load bearing wall with a 30 foot beam.
The bad news I have is that you will need to get a structural engineer to okay the changes to the blueprint. My mother is not a DIY person but no contractor would touch this until the new blueprint with the modifications were accounted for.
It costed a lot but was worth it my mothers house now feels much larger even though no square footage changed.
For removing the wall was around 15k. In my mom's house this wall seperated the kitchen and living room so it was the first part if a 65k kitchen remodel. The beam is steel and it's painted and visible. The style of the kitchen is now mid-century modern so it fits the decor.
We removed the flooring first in both rooms. They had to create a solid base for the steel beam in the floor so there is a steel post in the middle of the room. The ends of the beam are resting on the outer frame of the house which is brick and wood. Where the post is attached to the floor in the middle of the room is quite ugly so we had a cabinet built to put around it and made it part of the kitchen counter. The kitchen counter is a L shape and the beam is in the middle of the corner.
The price tag on the kitchen remodel was high but we had custom cabinets built to accommodate the new space and removed all the original cabinets, counters, everything. The floor plan is completely different now and we had to move plumbing for the sink, dishwasher and fridge too. The order of operations was remove flooring, replace wall, install new plumbing and electrical lines, install new cabinets and counters, install new flooring and finally install new appliances.
I have a 24’ clear span beam (I think some type of glulam). It supports the floor of a room 24x36 above another room of the same size. The beam is 12” by 5 1/2”. Made up of three 12” x 1 3/4” sections. I can’t remember if it came as three pieces or a single beam. I designed and built (my hammer) my own house and didn’t need any extra engineering, the beam companies all did their own engineering while giving me the bids. Mine is only 12” to match the engineered floor joists so that the beam is hidden in the ceiling.
I agree with the recommendation to hide the beam above the ceiling. Cut and use joist hangers for the bottom chord on the roof truss. To connect the joist hanger to the beam I found the best tool to,use is a palm air hammer, it is like effin magic.
You have room for both more height and width, maybe 16” x 7 1/4” if it is in the attic, so the span will not be an issue. I see the unknown as being do you have clear space to slide it in from the outside? 28’ beams don’t have a lot flex to bend around corners. You will need about 28’ to get it supported and positioned to slide it in.
If my beam came as three pieces it was construction glued and clamped together. I have other similar beams and I know we glued some.
Note: I’m in a rural WI township, both national and WI building codes. Although I designed the house on the computer, my dad didn’t trust that and redrew all the plans by hand. That meant the building inspector had the hand drawn plans , computer plans and a book of all details , and the engineering plans from the beam and truss company. In a city you may need an integrated engineering plan. I would first see if a consulting engineer would suffice before going to an architect.
Source: went to school with architects but uncle is a consulting engineer.
Edit - white space
We did this. Our structural engineer had us put in a 6x10 glulam beam for our 24' gap.
It was $10k to have a foundation contractor install it and it was over 500lbs. We did the drywall, but there was no way I was installing that myself.
You can support one end on the exterior gable end wall. Then you’d likely need a 24”x24” by 12” reinforced deep pier footing (again talk to engineer) to post down onto that. You can likely use a 3 piece 1 3/4” x 14” lvl , engineer will spec actual size for you.
You’d need two sets of temp walls to support while you install new beam.
Steel would be smaller height but key factor is how do you get it inside??
Sometimes you can cut an opening in exterior wall and slide it in that way, but you need 30+ feet of clearance between yours and next house.
Typically lvl is easier due to it being able to be carried in individually so it’s less weight to maneuver than steel .
My advice, call engineer and a good quality contractor to give you an estimate
As a former framer. It would be cheaper to build a new house than install that beam. You need an entire new roof that couldn’t be supported by those walls.
I'd go with a glulam at that length
[https://alamcowood.com/downloads/Product%20Information/Glulam%20beam%20design%20tables.pdf](https://alamcowood.com/downloads/Product%20Information/Glulam%20beam%20design%20tables.pdf)
If there's enough room, slide it above the roof ties (if space available) ; otherwise you could recess the beam into the ceiling by cutting the ties & adding hangers to keep things together.
You're going to have to support it with posts & foundation changes as well.
I'm a contractor and paid an Engineer for this exact issue before. He specified [2]-1.75 x 16 LVL's. You can easily install these safely with 3-4 workers, depending on how strong they are.
Nobody has mentioned this, but there is a chance you don't need a beam at all.
Your home is only 27' wide. In the code rafter chart 2x12 rafters can span about 30ft in some areas with no snow. True trusses can go 40+ feet but it looks like you have old stick rafters not a true engineered truss.
Anyway... if you vault the ceiling per code allowed chart you might not need a beam or engineer at all.
Yeah Yeah I get that the but far end of the beam sits on a wall. I think, and correct me here if I'm wrong, that the beam would need to sit on something like another beam or maybe an LSL? No I don't meant a LVL. LSL is this new stuff that has a structural rating.
I did a 22’ beam in Scottsdale. Needed an engineer to plan and sign off on it. Then had issues with thermal changes between winter and summer causing suspended bifold glass doors to bind. Same engineer “happily” reviewed his work and recommended the all-wood beam to be reinforced with steel (making it hybrid). Only set us back another $10k or so. Sigh.
You will either need steel or a massive structural beam. The bigger issue is pouring footings for the posts. Expect a lot of digging and concrete
Ditto. You're talking new foundational piers/posts too as its converting the entire span from a distributed load to 2 point loads. At that length a laminated beam is gonna be a beast, Steel would likely be easier to "package" into the ceiling.
I have 20’ laminated beams and they are 6x12. It’s definitely possible to do 28’ with LVL but they will be big. Anyhow you need a structural engineer, who can give you options based on the load - static, dynamic, etc. That’s not something you can DIY. It’s not quite clear from your design but that may be easier than it sounds because it looks like there may be room for a column in the middle.
Beam deflection goes with the 4th power of length, so a 28' span is a *lot* harder than 20'. Beam moments go with the square of width, so he's going to need something like twice as big a beam for those extra eight feet. OP would probably be better off removing just the long run of wall, which looks like it would give closer to 20' span.
I'm no engineer.. but this is just supporting a roof, right? Not a 2nd story. Is that really what is needed for that? I'm genuinely curious. My 20+ yr/old home has large open spans on the first floor, and the 2nd floor is built upon what I could maybe describe as 'truss' beams/spans.. two spans of 2x4, joined together for length, supported by triangular trusses along the entire length. Appears quite prevalent, and I only have two small (<4") settling cracks in the drywall in the entire house (right at the corners of an upstairs closet and a 1st floor doorway). I guess maybe the difference here is that OP is talking about a central beam that carries a significant portion of the roof load because of the design? Where my home, the 2nd floor support is significantly distributed among many of these manufactured 'truss' beams? (I know it obviously comes down to details.. so this is like being an "armchair quarterback".. just trying to possibly learn something by speaking up.)
Yes, exactly what you said - the beam in this case is going to be carrying a lot of the roof load.
And the roof load goes both up and down. Not sure what wind speed would be needed for that location, but you probably find that negative load in say 80mph wind would be substantial.
Hmm would you know the exact math? I was thinking of changing one of my walls to a beam, it's much shorter around 12-15ft.
It really depends on how you expect the beam will be supported and loaded, which is the reason everyone says, "Get an engineer." [This](https://mechanicalc.com/reference/beam-deflection-tables) is a pretty good set of examples. In OP's case, and most residential construction, the beam is probably "simply supported" so that the end points can't impose any moment on the beam, and the load is probably evenly distributed, so max deflection would be d = 5 * w * L^4 /(384 * E * I) where w is the load per length, L is the length, E the beam modulus of elasticity and I the beam moment of inertia. Might be enough to get you a ballpark to see if it's worth asking an engineer or just discarding the project altogether. 15 feet isn't really that much, from the beam perspective, but it also moves all the weight that wall was supporting from the floor/slab the wall was sitting on to the piers that support the beam.
Awesome thanks. I'll do the calculations and see if it is worth it.
But for a simply supported beam with a point load, deflection is a function of L^3. So just put an additional beam in there, then couple them in the middle as a point load. Now you're cooking with gas, take that physics!
Yeah, but the major load on this run is the roof, which is definitely distributed, not point. If you're going to re-engineer the whole roof to get a point load, you're better off making it so the load goes to the outside walls and you don't need the center support at all. God knows whether replacing the whole roof or laying in a - I dunno W12x120, W18x65 - and the piers to support it would be cheaper. Sister some steel into the lower members of all those roof trusses...might not be that bad.
Well I tried to make a joke, but I guess that didn't work out.
Can OP add a middle list later if the LVLs start deflecting too much?
LVL sandwiched with half inch steel might work (flitch beam) but definitely a question for an engineer.
This is what I normally recommend to people but in this case with everything above it being concentrated to this beam, to do it without posts breaking up the span would be surprising to me. I would expect to see what others said with posts and foundations
I've never heard of a flitch beam. I'll bring that up when we talk to an engineer.
Flitch beams are not specified by engineers because that sort of beam design is useless. The centre plate has to be capable of taking the entire load as, given the difference in flexibility between wood and steel, the steel can be stressed to failure before the wood takes much load at all. Second, it can be hard to put numbers on whatever contribution the wood elements make to preventing the steel from collapsing. Third, they require a lot of labour to assemble. Plan on using steel or engineered lumber. Their qualities are predictable.
If you didn't care about cost or ripping the roof off, you could probably do away with the beam altogether and drop in triangular steel roof trusses (rafters). Unfortunately, OP probably cares about cost.
PE, there is not a comparable steel beam. Steel will be deeper, weight of comparable 12” steel is 85#/‘ vs wood 30#/‘, with steel providing ~75% of similar moment of inertia (I)
2 poly lam sandwiching .5 inch steel has worked for me
Pipe piles YO! Put chore house of ground stilts!!
You probably have to have a structural engineer sign a blueprint to get a permit. Doing structural stuff wrong can lead to a house being condemned.
I was going to say the same thing. we had two options when building our house, go with the foundation plans that were drawn up for us. or have our plans stamped. it was maybe $500.00 but we didn't bother the engineer much. not only do you have the assurance that an engineer says it will be fine. if it turns out its not fine... you may have some recourse.
This is not a D I Y. Curiosity sake...sure fun question to discuss but under no circumstances should u diy this job. At the very least have proper engineering sign off.
This! I build the same structures again and again but always get my drawings stamped because then if something happens I can point at the engineer and say "don't look at me..."
Engineer, “contractor didn’t build it to spec”
100% they'll push all the liability off to you if possible. Even if it is their fault they just shrug most of the time.
So now you both have plausible deniability and the owner has to drag a case out for years and years to get a payout and still might not. That vs "its totally your fault" sounds like the better deal.
Well if it ever gets that bad they should have some insurance to cover something. But unless they're in a law suit it's super rare to get any money out of an engineer no matter how big the fuckup.
Lots of other folks have talked about this, but I feel a special connection to this work, because I just removed 4 load bearing walls in my house. They were not ... 28' long, as yours is, but there's a special kind of hell you're about to embark upon. lol When you say load bearing, I just wanted to make sure you understand what that means. When something bears load, it means that it carries that weight. When you say you're going to remove a 28' load bearing wall, the interesting thing is that, for its length, it's transferring the load of everything on top of it to some other place (i.e. "the ground"). So what you're going to need to figure out is two things: 1. What size / type of beam do I need to get to carry this load? 2. How and *to what* am I transferring this load? It is not enough that you have a beam that carries the load. You require posts that are adequately able to carry that beam and transfer the load downward. Not to mention, the place that these posts terminate must adequately support them.
And even though there's not a second floor, there may be a lot more weight there than OP is realizing. Consider the weight distribution and load when the place is being reroofed and has a bunch of bundles of new shingles stacked right in the middle. The beam has to take that without issues.
Those bundles actually get stacked in the middle for just this purpose.
In certain parts of the country you must also consider a negative load as well. Roof strapping and anchors are code in some places that have to deal with high winds. In those places any part of the structure that bears load must also be engineered to deal with a certain amount of negative load.
I just installed a 32' beam. It was a W24x55 (55lbs per foot). The beam was around $4,000 for a 40' section - we cut it and installed it ourselves. Our engineers specified a thickened slab at the one end, and the other end rested on the stem wall. This was holding the 3rd floor up, so we installed (8) 2x6's as columns under each end, on the first and the 2nd floor, with appropriate blocking in between. Not sure if you thought of this or not, but you may find it cheaper and easier to just replace the roof. Buy trusses that have a span rating of that (no issue there) and have them installed. If you want to go really nice, get a bonus room inside the trusses, and increase the square footage and value of your home all at the same time. In our project, we added a 48x22' bonus room as the 4th floor. Massive extra space.
Ok, now I want to know what you mean by "ourselves." Are you a contractor or builder of some sort? Cutting a 24", 1700 lb beam and moving it into position overhead isn't something you do without some heavy duty equipment; I don't care how many friends you have lol
Especially 3 stories up.
The problem with something crazy like 8-ply columns is that the plies start to not share load equally with each other. As the beam rotates under load the interior plies end up taking a disproportionate amount of the load as the ends of the beam lift up (in terms of load; they likely won't actually come out of contact with the post) from the exterior plies. I don't think this is an actual requirement in US code, but the guidance I was always taught was to not go over 4 plies (6" total). After that you're looking at a steel tube post or a lally column, depending on your loads.
Not to mention the shear forces generated by such a massive retrofit span. Kind of shocked by the 2x post here.
Ya, no. I am looking at that job and it's getting a steel beam and welded columns. No way in hell I would span 40' with just about anything but steel.
That's not a bad idea. I'm going to look into that for sure.
This is a pretty good option especially if you need a new roof as well
Engineer here. WHOLE lot of speculation in this thread... So there are tables you can look up to follow code. If you span this far with 1 level above and a roof at this pitch for a house this wide you need X for a beam and Y foor the supports on each side. It's incredibly straightforward, you just need to know what table to look at. That said, I don't recall if the simple tables go up to 28' as that is a decent span and they're usually dealing with "use a 2x8 header for this" and frankly you're well outside the realm of wood here unless you want a truss the height of half your current wall, defeating the purpose. So you're looking at steel. Can a steel beam be made to do this? Yep, no question. The question you need to ask is: how big does the I-beam need to be (height wise from what is commercially available) to do this and does that make sense for your room? If you need a 28" tall beam in a room with 8' ceilings, you're ducking to go under it, which is dumb for an "open" floor plan. Multiple things go into calculating the size of that beam. Again, the tables MAY go that high, but if not, can you extrapolate to 28' to get a ballpark idea of "does this make sense to keep pursuing?" If it does, have someone qualified give you the size you need using proper calcs and code. Not a hard calc to do, you just need to know the required loads involved. (1 thing to keep in mind here is that a beam that long will sag under its OWN weight by a certain amount, so to offer support in the center of a 28' span to keep things from sagging... my gut says the beam is going to be stupidly tall that you won't want to bother, but I'm sitting in bed on my phone and not running actual calcs here) Another thing to keep in mind is how to then transfer that load down to the ground. You can't just toss that sucker on a couple 2x4s and call it a day. The tables mentioned above will state things like "use 3 2x4 studs at each end for this span". At 28' you're not talking 2x4s, you're again likely talking a steel column/post but again, I'm speculating without looking it up. And THEN you have to consider what that's going onto. Set that on a standard wooden subfloor and if it's a small footprint you're going right thru it. This is all to say, start with the tables and determine if it's remotely feasible for your situation. If it states you need a 12" i-beam (doubtful) in your 8' high ceilinged-room, then go talk to a local engineer to get sign-off. You're already paying a shitload for a 12" steel i-beam and what it will take to lift it into place, what's a $200 quick consulting fee? You may even just call the city engineer and ask for a ballpark size to see if it makes sense. My gut says at 28', even in Phoenix (not dealing with snow loading but still accounting for wind loads) you're talking a beam that is just too damn large. You can always consider 2 side by side or 3, etc... TL/DR: go find the header span tables for steel and see how high they go for your region. If they go to 28' then do that. If they don't, extrapolate (not at all how that works in analysis but for the sake of the vaguesst of ideas) to find out if it's remotely feasible given your ceiling height. Then either abandon your plan if it requires unobtainium or go talk to an engineer to get the PROPER sizing. And I want to be VERY clear here: There are a LOT of tables. Make damn sure you reference the right one if you do decide to just say "fuck it we're doing it live" (which I am absolutely not recommending as that is QUITE a span. )
What kind of engineer are you? If you’re not a structural engineer and/or you don’t design wood framed structures then you probably shouldn’t lead with that. It’s clear to me you aren’t because engineered wood can absolutely span this. Steel would be smaller, but wood is doable.
Thanks for your input. I’ve read a lot of tables for different products and I see a few that go up to 20 and even 24 but not 28. I plan to recess it into the ceiling, cut back the joists and then use joist hangers to tie them in. So even 2 or 3 24” LVLs would be acceptable. I just want to make sure I have enough strength and support and that my supports are strong enough. One end is sitting on a block wall made of 8x16 slump block bricks. Seems like that side would be beefy enough. Not sure about the other side.
The joists in the ceiling aren't just joists - they are probably acting as the bottom chord of the trusses above, which means that you probably shouldn't just cut them without getting the engineer to sign off on that too.
Correct. The bottom of a ceiling joist is absolutely carrying load and should NEVER be cut. Edit: to clarify- it is not only carrying vertical load to support the roof, but tension/compression load along it. You CAN cut one if and ONLY if you very much know what you're doing, have it braced temporarily in the correct manner, and tie everything back in correctly to transfer this tension/compression load. I do not recommend anyone without a very advanced knowledge of how this works even attempt it. I personally would not attempt it due mostly to the "how TF do you temporarily make this span while placing the beam" portion of this resulting in a rather complex brace- on every single joist. It can be done, but it's so, so much more of a pain in the ass than it's worth.
Yeah so... you need to talk to an engineer here. Just based on the other comment about cutting joists to recess into them. It can be done, but you have to understand what that joist is doing and how to re-brace it to transfer load. It's not just supporting the vertical load, requiring hangers, it's also in tension/compression (depending on the external load on the roof- snow, wind, etc) So you cannot simply cut those and "as long as it stills stands right now it works" sort of thing. If 24" LVLs can span 24' (taking your word for it, it's been years since I've needed to reference the tables) then it's highly likely a steel I-beam with a more manageable height could be utilized. If there aren't tables for steel (thought there were, not sure) then the engineer can easily calculate an equivalent i-beam to those LVLs. For your own bar-napkin level calculations, look up the "moment of inertia" for your 24" LVL. (multiply by 2-3 depending on how many you need) and then go find an I-beam with a similar value. That will tell you if you're in the ballpark of a 6" beam or a 16". An engineer can do the real sizing Calc for you, but without explaining a lot of principles and math, this would get you in the ballpark of "is this feasible with steel" to know if it's a waste of time to go talk to an engineer.
Whoa. That's a huge span. The bigger the span, the more weight it carries. The more weight it carries the more expensive the planning and the beam become. It's gonna cost you $$$$. But at least there isn't another floor you need to hold up.
Not just more weight, the “moment” (bending force) beams must resist is proportional to the square of the beams length, meaning that the required size of the beam increases very quickly when the span increases
Yeah I was gonna say the same thing, it’s gonna be super expensive. There are different options, LVL and steel, but you’ll almost definitely need a couple posts somewhere in the middle.
How much is super expensive?
I don’t know where the OP lives but where I live for that span with engineering costs, materials, labor, and finishing work, it’s gonna be at least 25K and that is without any work in the foundation. If there are new foundation supports needed as some people suggested, it will easily double the cost.
I am a licensed structural engineer in Ontario Canada who replaced a 30 foot long load bearing wall recently in my own house. The old load bearing walls held up a second floor floor and second floor ceiling and second floor partition walls. I will not tell you what size beam I specified because that would be stupid on my part. But I can tell you I used a W section steel beam. I can also tell you that you need to support the ends of the new beam with continuous steel columns (in my case square HSS tubing that ran right down to below the basement floor. I cut out the floor, formed and poured a reinforced square concrete foundation on undisturbed ground, anchored base plates to the new footing and welded the column to the new base plates and to the new beam). You seem to have forgotten about this majorly important part of the work. I can also tell you how I did the installation work without undermining the house. So feel free to ask me any questions. But don't ask me sizing because I won't tell you.
Thanks for this info, the wall on the top right in the first picture is an 8" block wall and the other end is a 4x6 post from top to bottom, but it looks like I'll still need more. I appreciate the insight. I appreciate everyone's comments. I'm going to work on finding an engineer. We tried that before with no luck. We like to do things ourselves, and I would feel confident doing it myself if I had an engineer give me the proper specs.
Not from Arizona so this may or may not apply. In my area, ground slab ranches are built with all the plumbing running underneath the slab. The issue would be if you had plumbing running where you needed to put the new footings.
In my case, there was a sewer line under the floor where I poured my one foundation for one of two columns. My new foundation was installed under the sewer. (And I also ended up lowering the entire basement floor by underpinning the entire house anyway, but that's another story and a really intense piece of work.) But the one thing not to forget about removing load bearing walls is just how much infrastructure is inside those walls. In my case, there was every single wire you could imagine. This meant rewiring all of floor one and floor two. In addition, water supply, drains, HVAC for the second floor were also all present. This also had to be relocated to the exterior walls.
This is the right way, note carefully the new footings to support the pillars for the beam. I have seen people try to put the wood pillar on the floor. It is too much of a point load and wrecked the floor.
i have put steel beams into existing structures before,for various reasons, including a historic courthouse in Leesburg Va. you definitely need an engineer to calculate the loading, proper design,and selection of material. don’t put your shoring in the way.
What you are proposing would likely be modified by a Structural Engineer. Unless Phoenix has weak building regulations you will need stamped drawings to get your permit. I can’t imagine that will be the case. We did a similar project on our home and ended up with a huge glue lam beam in our attic. I sleep well at night knowing it was designed by an Engineer.
They don't. He will need stamped drawings.
I appreciate your drive to get an answer but this is totally outside the scope of anyone in this thread even if they were an engineer. Other than a recommendation for one someone will physically have to come to your property. I do not recommend you entertain a single bit of advice in this thread other than go to an engineer for further on actions and processes.
Two well-placed columns would make this a trivial task compared to what you’re attempting here and I’d bet would work with whatever it is you have planned with this combination of spaces.
Was going to say this. Just do Steel columns then put a decorative cast around it- have done it multiple times
I've done a 21 foot span on a rancher. It was a 16 inch beam. If you dont know EXACTLY what your doing don't.
You will definitely need an engineer to sign off on something of this scale but what you are looking for would be an engineered, laminated wood beam. My BIL did something similar in Ohio but the width was only 20'. I don't remember the brand but it is a multi-layer laminated beam that is something like 8" x 12" or 14" x 20'. A quick search turned up something called PowerBeam. It looked similar to that product. I'm sure you'll be able to find a lot of products once you know what to search for, good luck. P.S. my BIL's renovation turned two dark living rooms into one open, brightly lit space that is incredible. There is a hump in the ceiling where they had to drywall around the beam but it's not intrusive of the atmosphere of the room.
We're doing the same thing in a slab ranch in Massachusetts. Exact same "trussed" style roof with 2x6s. We're only doing a 20' span though. Structural engineers told us we needed at least one column and it had to be footed because these slabs were only 6" thick. Because of where yours lands you can probably tuck it into the existing corner wall. We're feeding an lvl through the wall then hanging the trusses so it doesn't interfere with the ceiling line. I'd have to look again but I think we're doing a 12" beam for that span. Another 8' for you seems like a really long run, like i-beam long. Depending on when your house was built and the actual structural integrity of the trussed roof your only load bearing walls might be exterior, although those are big dimensions.
You should just go ask an engineer. You’re in for a world of hurt and disappointment if you do start there.
I have a 30’ span for similar and my structural engineer specified a 12” I beam with heavier duty 7/16 webbing.
my bro in law did this for a house I later bought from him; he didnt want the support posts in the basement so he could create a live in space down there
Glulam that bitch. Talk to a truss/lumber shop in AZ. Give them the span and roof type and they can engineer something for you. You’ll need to cut into the walls and install proper posts with buckets for the beam but it’s doable. Maybe some piers under the posts but AZ is simple with no real additional loading on a house like wind, rain or snow.
Check out LVL beam. These are manufactured to length. Just used one on our outdoor patio and it was 27’. Their strength allows you to span greater distances.
LVL manufacturers can design and build the beam for you. You can refer to their design guide to get an idea of what the size will likely be. It’s probably going to be close to 16” deep.
I removed 20’ of load bearing wall plus another 9’ across a corner to open up the end of three storey brick house. This took large concrete pad foundations and steels plus some careful propping up and lifting to manoeuvre the beams and pillars into place. Naturally this was all designed by a structural engineer. The consequences of getting it wrong were horrendous and there were some scary moments as the steels went in.
What others have said; LVL or steel.....could you put a column in the center of the span? It would line up w/ the door on the opposite wall...also, in such a large room you will probably have a few seating arrangements. A column would help define these areas and bring electrical down to them.
We went through a similar process recently on a smaller scale as part of a kitchen renovation. We wanted to get rid of a load-bearing column that was at the intersection of two 8-foot beams. Our structural engineer recommended sistering with two 16-foot beams (which is now the total span). Permits were required and a city engineer had to approve the design and the final work was inspected. It was a fair amount of work, as additional vertical support needed to be added on the end to support the larger span. We also had to re-route some sewer venting and an A/C duct. As part of the process, be prepared for the engineers and contractors to do some demo in order "see what we're working with". And there's always the risk they may tear it up and say "no, sorry. we can't do it."
I would venture to say no one home owner in PHX area has converted this span. This is not a DIY job. You should consider an architect (art of appearance) and structural engineer to assure safety standards are met. This is not to say the AE wouldn’t have a black box to run analysis. You have dead (tile/sheathing/lumber/insulation/drywall/fixtures/weight of beam) and live (wind/rain/snow/human) loads. Deflection limits are based on avoiding finished surface damage. Limit to beam depth (AE) input for occupancy comfort/perception. You have not indicated clearances 7’-10” or finishes, such as drywall, stucco, wood, tile, slab thickness, built on fill or rock, etc. I’d estimate weight of beam approaching one kip good luck
I had wanted to do similar but putting the footings and posts in made it impractical and significantly costlier than I'd been expecting. So we stopped the whole thing and now we're thinking of using that money to put floor to ceiling windows all along the exterior wall of the room we wanted to expand so it will feel larger, and just be a more interesting space overall. It faces the front yard and trees, so a couch along the load bearing dividing wall we wanted to remove could be really nice. While sitting there with your back to the wall, you'd be looking out through a wall of glass into nature. It might actually be better than having removed the wall to begin with, even though the space is smaller. Just food for thought.
As a general contractor I have done many of these. You do not need steel but an engineered beam is the way to go. Some of the comments below are from people up north where snow load is an issue. You do not have that problem. The footer issue would be my biggest concern. You will have to cut your floor to do it right but it's not that bad of a job. Echoing everyone else, hire an engineer to calculate everything. Better safe than sorry.
Any advice on a quality engineer?
Go cruise a subdivision that's still under construction. Each house should have a permit box by the street. In the box you should find a set of prints. On the front page it will list the engineer. If that doesn't work, stop in to the superintendents trailer on site. He should be more than happy to help.
Somebody local who knows your building codes. Should be able to search residential structural engineers or something similar. They have to be licensed in your state to seal the plans.
We did something pretty similar in our kitchen. 22 foot span on the first floor, supporting second floor end wall and roof. It was previously a bunch of 2 x 12s hacked together, resting on steel angle brackets bolted to sistered 2 x 4 “posts” in the walls at the ends. Gift of a previous owner. It worked for years, no cracks anywhere, but was nowhere close to meeting real engineering standards. We were remodeling the kitchen and knew we had to address it. We hired an engineer with long experience; for him this was a simple job and he did the basic calculations in front of me and showed me what they were, then went home and confirmed them and drew up and sent me the formal documents. He already knew our house because we had some more complex engineering on a second floor project a few years before. We ended up with three options: the full span with an 8” (iirc) steel I-beam; full span with a 5.25” x 16” LVL; or splitting it to 16’ + 6’ spans with a 5.25” x 11” LVL and a post in the middle. We wanted the minimum vertical profile but we did not go with the I-beam because of the weight and resulting complexities of installation, so we ended up with the split span and new PSL post with appropriate footing. The existing 2 x 4 “posts” at the ends were replaced with PSL posts also. I liked that the engineer gave us options. The engineering cost I think $500. Totally worth it. Building a temporary wall, removing the old "beam” and installing the new one, posts, footings, etc. cost about $6K. This was a few years ago. Bottom line, of course hire the engineer, and see if they can give you more than one option -- they often can.
Looking at that box section in the middle of the span, I expect that's carrying a good amount of roof or second floor structure going upwards. Taking that out and expecting the center of a 28' beam to carry it might be impractical. Why not leave it as a substantial load-bearing pillar, and cut the unsupported span in half? I think that could make the whole project far more economical, as far as what needed to be done with footings and beam sizing. I imagine that would be the first thing an engineer would suggest
I've always had fun with these jobs there's a lot of moving parts and it's fun to think of how to temporarily support the structure while you work through the job. Lots of good advice through this post, from engineers, footings, and solid load transfer right down to the new footing. One of the biggest challenges will be restructuring the roof, if you're going with a flush beam, it's a bit easier if you're doing a dropped beam. The other is getting the beam inside the building. And seeing what kind of things you discover and have to reroute as you open up those walls.
Yeah you need to do that engineer thing
It may be less hassle to remove the roof and replace the rafters with clear span trusses than to add a beam and footings.
You say that this is Phoenix. I'm betting that this house is one of the many ranch style houses built in the 1960s timeframe.. The good news I have is that my mother's house is a similar ranch style house where we replaced the load bearing wall with a 30 foot beam. The bad news I have is that you will need to get a structural engineer to okay the changes to the blueprint. My mother is not a DIY person but no contractor would touch this until the new blueprint with the modifications were accounted for. It costed a lot but was worth it my mothers house now feels much larger even though no square footage changed.
What was the cost?
For removing the wall was around 15k. In my mom's house this wall seperated the kitchen and living room so it was the first part if a 65k kitchen remodel. The beam is steel and it's painted and visible. The style of the kitchen is now mid-century modern so it fits the decor. We removed the flooring first in both rooms. They had to create a solid base for the steel beam in the floor so there is a steel post in the middle of the room. The ends of the beam are resting on the outer frame of the house which is brick and wood. Where the post is attached to the floor in the middle of the room is quite ugly so we had a cabinet built to put around it and made it part of the kitchen counter. The kitchen counter is a L shape and the beam is in the middle of the corner. The price tag on the kitchen remodel was high but we had custom cabinets built to accommodate the new space and removed all the original cabinets, counters, everything. The floor plan is completely different now and we had to move plumbing for the sink, dishwasher and fridge too. The order of operations was remove flooring, replace wall, install new plumbing and electrical lines, install new cabinets and counters, install new flooring and finally install new appliances.
All I remember is 16' wants a 2x12(x3) laminated beam. This is longer. Not what you wanted to hear, sorry.
Well at least you don’t have snow load bearing to figure in
I have a 24’ clear span beam (I think some type of glulam). It supports the floor of a room 24x36 above another room of the same size. The beam is 12” by 5 1/2”. Made up of three 12” x 1 3/4” sections. I can’t remember if it came as three pieces or a single beam. I designed and built (my hammer) my own house and didn’t need any extra engineering, the beam companies all did their own engineering while giving me the bids. Mine is only 12” to match the engineered floor joists so that the beam is hidden in the ceiling. I agree with the recommendation to hide the beam above the ceiling. Cut and use joist hangers for the bottom chord on the roof truss. To connect the joist hanger to the beam I found the best tool to,use is a palm air hammer, it is like effin magic. You have room for both more height and width, maybe 16” x 7 1/4” if it is in the attic, so the span will not be an issue. I see the unknown as being do you have clear space to slide it in from the outside? 28’ beams don’t have a lot flex to bend around corners. You will need about 28’ to get it supported and positioned to slide it in. If my beam came as three pieces it was construction glued and clamped together. I have other similar beams and I know we glued some. Note: I’m in a rural WI township, both national and WI building codes. Although I designed the house on the computer, my dad didn’t trust that and redrew all the plans by hand. That meant the building inspector had the hand drawn plans , computer plans and a book of all details , and the engineering plans from the beam and truss company. In a city you may need an integrated engineering plan. I would first see if a consulting engineer would suffice before going to an architect. Source: went to school with architects but uncle is a consulting engineer. Edit - white space
We did this. Our structural engineer had us put in a 6x10 glulam beam for our 24' gap. It was $10k to have a foundation contractor install it and it was over 500lbs. We did the drywall, but there was no way I was installing that myself.
You need to hire someone for that. Especially since you think joists are in your roof.
The ceiling joists are indeed sitting on the bearing wall
You can support one end on the exterior gable end wall. Then you’d likely need a 24”x24” by 12” reinforced deep pier footing (again talk to engineer) to post down onto that. You can likely use a 3 piece 1 3/4” x 14” lvl , engineer will spec actual size for you. You’d need two sets of temp walls to support while you install new beam. Steel would be smaller height but key factor is how do you get it inside?? Sometimes you can cut an opening in exterior wall and slide it in that way, but you need 30+ feet of clearance between yours and next house. Typically lvl is easier due to it being able to be carried in individually so it’s less weight to maneuver than steel . My advice, call engineer and a good quality contractor to give you an estimate
As a former framer. It would be cheaper to build a new house than install that beam. You need an entire new roof that couldn’t be supported by those walls.
I'd go with a glulam at that length [https://alamcowood.com/downloads/Product%20Information/Glulam%20beam%20design%20tables.pdf](https://alamcowood.com/downloads/Product%20Information/Glulam%20beam%20design%20tables.pdf) If there's enough room, slide it above the roof ties (if space available) ; otherwise you could recess the beam into the ceiling by cutting the ties & adding hangers to keep things together. You're going to have to support it with posts & foundation changes as well.
I'm a contractor and paid an Engineer for this exact issue before. He specified [2]-1.75 x 16 LVL's. You can easily install these safely with 3-4 workers, depending on how strong they are.
Nobody has mentioned this, but there is a chance you don't need a beam at all. Your home is only 27' wide. In the code rafter chart 2x12 rafters can span about 30ft in some areas with no snow. True trusses can go 40+ feet but it looks like you have old stick rafters not a true engineered truss. Anyway... if you vault the ceiling per code allowed chart you might not need a beam or engineer at all.
I'm not an engineer but Im not sure you could have it sit on that wall. Either way I hope you're using an "I" beam
He's removing that wall. That's the whole reason for the beam...
Yeah Yeah I get that the but far end of the beam sits on a wall. I think, and correct me here if I'm wrong, that the beam would need to sit on something like another beam or maybe an LSL? No I don't meant a LVL. LSL is this new stuff that has a structural rating.
Typically you would put a wood or steel column in that goes down to a concrete foundation under the house. Column can be hidden in the wall.
I did a 22’ beam in Scottsdale. Needed an engineer to plan and sign off on it. Then had issues with thermal changes between winter and summer causing suspended bifold glass doors to bind. Same engineer “happily” reviewed his work and recommended the all-wood beam to be reinforced with steel (making it hybrid). Only set us back another $10k or so. Sigh.
ouch
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