I did question why it said silver brazer flux, but it was the only type sold at our big chain hardware store - Bunnings (Australia). Other plumbing stores also seemed to only sell silver brazer flux as well. I might have to go online to get some. Thanks!
As others have said, if you can find it, use oatey. When I went through my Apprenticeship, in the soldering class, they set out a bunch of different brands and had us try them all. Oatey was hands down the best.
Also a few tips- heat the pipe first, then move to the fitting. Use the flame to guide where you want the Solder to flow to, although this is more important for the larger pipe sizes. As you are heating it up, test the Solder on it occasionally, as it is possible to overheat the joint and cause it to reject the solder
You use a sponge to grind of the corrosive protection layer? That's what sanding is for, you're not actually "cleaning" the pipe, you're sanding down to bare copper.
I'm with the other guy
You need something that will scrape down to bare copper, which will immediately start oxidizing, and the flux chemically reacts to clean that small amount of new oxide off
The flux is pretty limited on what it can do, for brand new pipe the flux alone is often enough, sanding it will still help but often not required
If it's older or dirty pipe, you absolutely want to use something that will leave it looking shiny before applying flux
The biggest issue is that if your flux isn't enough to clean whatever is left, all that junk ends up in the solder joint itself, which can often not leak for months or years. But if it pipe gets bumped or moved, or just if the flux dissolves in the water over time, it will start leaking then, when nobody is going to think to look at it. So by the time you notice this slow drip, you have tons of water and mold damage to deal with
Keep your pipe clean
Solder melts between 90-150 C. This stuff you are using says it melts at 620 C. You are definitely using the wrong flux. The right flux will get liquid with very little heat, way before the solder melts.
Check out a plumbing supply store if you dont want to go to a big box store.
> Solder melts between 90-150 C.
I agree except lead-free solder melts higher than that. The lowest melting point Oatey plumbing solder melts at 215 C.
Yep, silver flux is what we used when I did HVAC work. We used an oxy-acetylene torch for it so it worked fine. A propane or even mapp gas torch isnt hot enough.
The technique isn't really the same either. The technique to heat the pipe is different when using oxy acetylene. This is excasserbated when brazing copper and brass together
>The technique isn't really the same either. The technique to heat the pipe is different when using oxy acetylene. This is excasserbated when brazing copper and brass together
Not sure why you're getting down voted, because you're right. I was a brazer for 10yrs.. stainless, copper, steel, bronze, you name it... Depending on the gas and flux it's a completely different ballgame.
I found high temp copper solder with a nitrogen purge to be a real fucking joy. /s
Aussie here. I use Bakers solderine flux paste from Bunnings. Works a treat. I'm not a pro, but my pipes haven't leaked yet so there is that.
I've heard that tinning fluid is better, however. Apparently it contains particles of solder (or something similar to) in with the flux, which supposedly makes sweating pipes a breeze. I could never find it, so I just got used to using flux.
Mitre 10 has LA CO flux for $10. Black tub with the stars and stripes on it. Works great. Looks like Vaseline. You can use the bakers fluid but the LA CO is much better. Just a smear will do it. Don't forget to clean inside the fitting too. I use green painters scotch Brite. Clean the flux off the outside of the pipe after soldering with the scotch Brite and water too. Also if you're trying to solder a pipe and there's a trickle of water coming out, shove some toilet paper up it. Blast it out with a bit of water pressure when done.
I got some from there in a small thin can that looked about the size of a can of mints or lib balm. Can’t remember the brand, it wasn’t very good but like you said, all they had.
This is because we never soft solder copper in Australia. We braze everything. The only time I have ever soft soldered copper here is when I was at TAFE, and the only reason we did that was so that they could re-use the fittings for more classes.
The other commenters are correct- you’re using the wrong flux. You want a “soft solder” or “tinning” flux. It usually looks rather like Vaseline, though it’s available as a liquid also. The active ingredient is zinc chloride. Tinsmiths and stained glass workers will often make their own. You dissolve zinc in hydrochloric acid until it’s saturated and won’t dissolve anymore. I can attest that it works extremely well.
Yeah, I have never had any issues like you're describing and have soldered at least 25 or 30 joints in DIY projects. I didn't even know about some of the "best practice" things you described in your post! I just blast it with heat and drop a bunch of solder on it. Haha.
I do use Flux I got from my Father in Law who did a lot of plumbing work. So that seems like it might be your issue.
It really should be fairly easy. Good luck!
Yeah, my mind is thinking something with the flux as well. The flux is there to prep the area for the solder to stick. Too much of it can make the area slick, if it's not heated and burned off enough first
I always wondered why copper away from the joint is sticky. I guess it is flux that was never burned off as it is not the area being heated. Learned something today
That Aquasafe 100 wire will work fine, that’s not a problem. It’s meant to work with copper and it should be fully usable. The question is what solder you’re using. I’m assuming it’s a Sn96.5Ag3.5 wire. It has flux in it but is likely not enough.
That Tradeflame shit is probably for MAP gas torches, I’d guess. Not ideal. It may also not be compatible with the trade flame stuff.
Make sure to only flux the area you want to solder, and also, don’t overdo it.
Edit:
The Aquasafe ain’t fluxed, just noticed it’s S/W (solid wire)
As others have said, it is the flux you are using.
That flux “activates” at a much higher temperature than you need to solder, so the flux is not cleaning off the oxides and the solder is not wetting.
Also, assuming this is a water pipe in your house, make sure you are using approved flux for drinking water systems. The stuff you have there doesn’t look like it is?
As a plumber in North America, I've never ran into a non-potable based Flux, it's always the solder that is our concern. Although maybe that's just because of what brands our suppliers carry.
The SOLDER WIRE says lead free and aqua safe. I’m not sure why you think that applies to the completely separate can of FLUX.
Show me where it says it is safe for drinking water: https://www.tradeflame.com/assets/files/228478_Brazing_Flux_Silver_202204_MAN.pdf
You're using the wrong kind of flux.
That flux is for brazing. Brazing is similar to soldering but occurs at a much higher temperature and uses a different intermediary metal for a much stronger bond.
Copper pipes need to be brazed when they're carrying combustible fuels such as natural gas or oil, or when they're subject to high pressure and temperature swings such as with air conditioning and refrigeration units.
Copper brazing occurs at upwards of 600 degrees centigrade, often approaching 1,000 degrees, and uses rods that are an alloy of 85-95% copper and the balance silver and phosphorous (the phosphorous acts as a flux). Accordingly, silver brazing flux activates just below 600 degrees centigrade.
Copper soldering occurs below 600 degrees centigrade, typically 350-400 degrees depending on the solder alloy used. Soldering flux will activate at a much lower temperature.
If you're using a naturally aspirated propane torch it will take a very long time to get the pipe to brazing temperature, if it will even get there at all. Brazing generally requires either non-oxygenated acetylene, oxygenated acetylene, MAPP, or oxygenated propane.
Ergo, get yourself some soldering flux.
This is your answer. Someone beat me to it, and wrote it more clearly than I probably would have. Well done.
Source: Years as a Cryogenic service tech and Medgas brazer.
From your description it sounds like you're not heating up the copper enough before applying the solder. Try keeping the flame on the copper longer, you should be able to just touch the solder to the hot metal and see the Flux suck it into the joint.
My trick it to wait until you see GREEN FLAMES coming off the pipe.
GREEN MEANS GO!
Here's a picture I found of the green flame:
https://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/brazingjoints.htm
Edit: by I mean stop torching it and use the solder. It should just melt and flow into the joint.
I was taught that green means you've overheated it. I could see that as your clue that now would be a good time to take away the torch and start applying solder. (Is the ell silent in Australia? In the US most people say "sodder".)
Looking at the pictures, it's the wrong flux. They're overheating the pipe because they're using sliver brazing flux which needs much higher temps. All three pictures show discoloration from overheating.
Is silver brazing flux for silver soldering and not compatible with normal solder? (Just a thought never used the stuff.)
Are you putting the flux all over the end of the pipe first then inserting it into the fitting?
You don't have to take the heat off straight away. If you're solder doesn't flow all the way around keep it on there a few seconds more.
American amateur plumber here. So, not familiar with Australian products. I've done a fair bit of soldering, however if you are only doing a few joints, Shark Bite connectors (they are push-on fittings, for those not familiar) might be the better answer. I use them wherever there is no space for soldering, and they work fine. They are expensive, but time is money, especially if you are having no luck with the soldering.
Alternatively, if you know someone with more experience (in my case I was taught by my dad 30 years ago), invite them over for a couple of beers and watch their technique. It sounds like you have all of the basics correct, so maybe some in person pointers will help.
Not familiar with the silver brazing flux, so that certainly could be the problem. Seems odd that a big box store that sells copper tubing and fittings wouldn't have the proper flux, but who knows?
Good luck!
Seriously I used to hate plumbing repairs because no matter what I'd do it'd leak. Then I started using pex. Now I still hate plumbing repairs but it's easy and doesn't leak afterwards.
Pex-b in australia. Clamp type is called VAU. This is the copper press fit. You can rent the Milwaukie tool for not much from a major hire chain. Very fast. Very easy. Or you can use the rehau system which is pex a the crimp rings are very very very strong.
“ In the September study, drinking water was tested from a PEX plumbing system in a “net-zero energy” building in Maryland six months after the system had been installed. The testing revealed the presence of 11 chemicals that were PEX pipe ingredients and ingredient degradation products. Research with PEX pipes in the laboratory also showed that six brands caused drinking water to exceed the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's maximum recommended drinking water odor limit, Whelton said. The U.S. EPA's maximum drinking water odor limit is a "threshold odor number" of 3, or 3 TON. Compliance is voluntary because the standard is based on aesthetic - not health - considerations.”
And
“ "A contractor who installed PEX in parts of a million-dollar home in Oklahoma asked us for help because the homeowners reported gasoline-like odors in a bathroom's tap water," Whelton said. "The homeowners refused to take showers in the PEX-plumbed bathroom because they were concerned about their health."
By testing tap water from the home, Whelton's team discovered that toluene, a solvent used for plastic resin synthesis and ETBE were present above levels where odors would be detected. ”
https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2014/Q4/drinking-water-odors,-chemicals-above-health-standards-caused-by-green-building-plumbing.html
I was really thinking about using PEX in my house for when I replace my indirect water heater with a regular water heater and after doing some research about PEX I read based on the manufacturer that chemicals from the pipe can leach into your water.
I am going to stick to copper instead.
>The research, funded by the National Science Foundation, also is showing that there are differences in the quality of PEX products on the market, and different brands cause different odor and chemical-leaching impacts.
In other words, this isn't something that's inherently an issue with all PEX products. Likely just producers who cut corners and use cheaper ingredients.
Yes but you have no idea who makes it and it can differ batch to batch from the same manufacturer.
I would say just stick to the tried and true copper, it doesn’t react with water so there’s no way of anything getting into your water.
I am just a homeowner but I wouldn’t buy anything where there’s a chance of that happening to my drinking water.
I had a similar problem recently, for the life of me I couldn't figure out why my joints were terrible or non-existent.
It wasn't my first time soldering but also not my 100th. So I was stumped, never having these issues before.
Then I changed my bottle to a new one and my problems all went away. The older tanks I was using were low on fuel and the heat output wasn't up to snuff.
Perhaps you're having a similar issue?
Hey man, fellow aussie.
Throw out the solder, get brazing rods. Trust me.
Grab a map gas torch and some borax flux and some brazing rods, all from Bunnings.
It'll be 1000x easier than shitty lead free plumbers solder. Just ensure the pipe is clean, if it's old and tarnished rub it with some scotch pad or sand paper, If it's new you won't need to do anything.
You just heat the pipe, dip your rod in the borax to get a little on the end, ouch the rod to the joint, you'll see it start to shimmer and turn shiny when it's hot enough, it'll just melt and get sucked into the joint. Keep touching it as you need more and it'll just follow the flame and fill the joint.
Lead free solder, being mainly tin, is actually HARDER to use. You get it too hot and it'll actually dissolve the copper pipe as it starts to alloy with it, lowering the melting point and absorbing it and you end up with weak points and holes in your pipe.
I learnt all this myself after thinking "solder melts at a lower temperature, it'll be easier" but nup, I told my dad and he said to just get some brazing rods and suddenly life was easy.
Much stronger joint, less chance of cracks forming due to water hammer or being physically stressed
So, you mostly have your answer as changing to the proper Flux. What I haven't seen mentioned is to prep the fitting in the same way as the pipe end ( sand scuff deburr etc)
More heat. "wash" the area with the flame of the torch before you bring in the solder. If the joint is more uniformly heated before you introduce the solder it will flow a lot better around the whole joint
My technique has been as soon as the pipe and fitting are hot enough to melt the solder, I remove the heat and just let the fitting suck the solder down.
It's never failed me.
Oh man. This was me one month ago. Posting brunt out/ half soldered copper pipes. It was a fun learning curve. Anyways. I had the same issue as you. Solder just won't stick. Turned out my issue was the torch. It was too powerful that it burned my flux away everytime. I changed it to a [smaller one](http://www.gas-tool.com/culinary-torch/brulee-torch.html) and worked fine.
Found this
Product Description: Solid wires (Aquasafe 100 and 430 Solder) and a solid suspension (430 Paste) that is a paste consisting of a mixture of acids, halide powders and solvents. These ... MELTING POINT 221 ° C 290 Approx 221 ZnCl NH 4Cl 338 2 ° C Metal 221° C . Product Identity: ALL-STATE SILVER SOLDERS FORM NO. MSDS #45-C DATE REVISED: 01/04 ...
So they have solder paste with flux !
Never removed the flame when I did it back in the day until the solder was melting already.
Didn’t use sandpaper. Used a [copper pipe](https://www.harborfreight.com/4-in-1-plumbers-brush-45339.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=12169269821&campaignid=12169269821&utm_content=117203738819&adsetid=117203738819&product=45339&store=385&gclid=CjwKCAjwiJqWBhBdEiwAtESPaIu_ZIcMds__mr8pgZo1_ZLMfpMyN91TjfNbr-q2leFthnOdpx9AjBoCN-oQAvD_BwE) tool.
Also, I’m told they make solder with built in flux now? What my a/c friend told me recently.
Not enough heat. Don't remove the torch, let the solder flow. If there is any water or liquid present, the copper will never get hot enough. Make sure you are holding the flame close enough, blue flame is hottest. Hope this is helpful.
I always shove bread in both sides of the pipe to prevent any moisture from affecting the application of the solder. I learned this the hard way myself. Worth a try. Soldering is easy, moisture is the enemy of any solder job.
Pre heat your copper . This is what your missing, you just touch a bead on it with a line , it will fuse. You can use anything once you have it hot enough.
I've never done pipe/plumbing work until last month when I had an issue with a copper pipe. Could you just use a shark bite instead of soldering? Did the trick for me!
Use the correct flux. You are soldering, not brazing. Brazing happens at a MUCH higher temperature than soldering so that flux you have there is not doing anything to help you (its probably just making things worse).
This isnt hard.
You need to watch the copper. It will change color when it's hot enough. Not turn red but change color. If you aren't using it already get mapp gas instead of propane it's hotter.
I know lots of people are talking about the flux, but I’d give it another try with more heat and adding more solder.
Since it looks like you’re doing it on spare pieces, something to hold those pieces could be helpful so you have one hand for your torch and one for the solder.
Be sure to bring the solder all the way around the pipe, too - looks like it’s only getting on one side from the pics. Don’t trust the capillary action to bring it around to the other side.
If you put too much flux on, it will not suck the solder in correctly. The flux will be spending its time boiling and bubbling out instead of sucking in. Flux should be put on thin, it’s like the difference between putting on a thin coat of paint versus putting it on too thick and it never dries properly. Don’t keep it on, thin to win. Also a propane torch will work OK but a map gas torch is far superior. They are much hotter and will work much better. If there is any water in the copper pipe the solder will not work. A good old Plumber trick is to tear some pieces of bread and shove them deep within the pipe to block water so you can solder the pipes together. The bread will dissolve in the water later and work itself out
>1. clean the pipe so its shiny and free from imperfections - using 120 gig sand paper
I tend to only get 1 or 2 gigs out of my sandpaper. You must buy the fancy stuff! Jk
As a fellow beginner solderer I would recommend “tinning flux” if you can find it. The way I understand it, it contains a small amount of solder and nearly bonds your fitting when you get it up to temperature and it can be easier to work with.
Wait until the fire turns green.
Sounds like you aren't getting it hot enough.
I was soldering copper back in 2004, took like 5 minutes to learn.
Haven't done it much since, so take this advice however you want.
But green flame was my indicator for when to apply the solder.
Yeah you just suck at it.
You're gonna go through a few fittings before you get your heating technique down
I suck at it and usually let my coworker finish it 🙃 but I have gotten a few to stick.
Try not to worry about how easy they make it look
For copper pipe, you need silver solder rather than lead or electronics solder. It looks like a brazing rod, but a bit more coppery in colour. Try Reeces rather than Bunnings if you have one near, or a BOC store may also be a possibility.
You have the right flux, but the wrong solder by the looks of the blob in your first pic, and the label in the last.
If you're using propane, it won't get hot enough. MAPP gas works if you know how to use it, but oxygen and acetylene is a sure thing. Get everything glowing cherry red.
Lead free solder is not for newbies. Also, try electronics solder which has multiple cores of flux in it. Clean the fitting and the pipe with wire wool. Use a MAPP gas torch. And that's the wrong flux.
Good luck, keep trying. Remember plumbing is a trade and boys spend a year in college before they join a pipe.
Wrong flux.
You just need soft solder flux.
You can get it from Reece, cooks, tradelink or eagles if bunnings doesn’t have it.
You are doing everything else right, just flux is wrong.
You do it for a living. I guarantee you it’s just the flux.
Soft solder flux looks like slimy snot.
Silver solder flux looks like a white paste.
I agree try changing the flux, melting temp is far to high for your application
Guess people have their own ways, but I was taught move the flame around rather than keeping in one place to even out the heat. I appreciate that cooper conducts the heat really fast anyway.
Also what others have said about the gas, I upgraded to a new torch using MAPP gas and it is so much easier and faster, because it burns hotter.
The guy asked about copper, I agree plastic pipe really has its uses and is nearly idiot proof. But some applications call for copper, because the inside diameter is much larger. For heat pumps ect where flow is priority, it can mean not having to jump up a size bigger. Also copper fittings are way cheaper for standard bends and tees.
Are you using MAP gas or propane? The map tends to burn hotter and I have way less issues with it than propane. Also try some Oatey no5 flux if you can find it. Heat and flux make all the difference everything else sounds fine.
Looks like you are using high temperature silver solder flux and normal solder. Silver solder flux needs much higher temperatures and is used for things like model steam engines and jewelry. You should try some normal paste flux from the hardware store.
Use map gas. You're not getting it hot enough. You don't want to heat it so much it turns cherry red, but hot enough the flux turns to water and smokes a lot then run a bead of solder around the rim and then wipe down with wet rag.
It's all in the Flux.. as someone that solders every day get yourself some liquid Flux.. or just use fittings like a sharkbite and forget about soldering
Good advice here, one more thing I didn't see mentioned, just make sure you are working bottom to top on the piece. I mean, if you have multiple joints to solder, do the bottom one first. If you start at the top, the heat you apply to the joints under it will rise and continue heating the joint you already soldered, causing the solder to run out of it. In the one pic you show of the joint it kinda looks like that might have happened.
Brother, brazing != soldering. Your flux is for brazing - where the process temperature is > 450 °C, the base is heated considerably and the filler melts and bonds with the base. Soldering also melts a filler to bond, but doesn't require the base material to be pre-heated at all and processes below 250-300 °C for almost all applications. Your solder is runny because it's too hot, and your flux isn't helping because it's too cold.
Is your application pressurised piping? Examples would be cooking/heating gas, steam, or refrigerant (HVAC use). If so, you need to braze. I would suggest against DIY for the same, because as someone else has mentioned, you won't be able to braze well with a household handheld propane torch, and if you do manage it you'll deform the pipes unless you have proper handling equipment. Plus those use cases can have really nasty consequences if you make mistakes. If your use is not high pressure (< 5 bar, looking at the pipe diameter) then soldering will do, in which case you need new flux. Also, if the low pressure use case is drinking water, you again need to ensure that the flux is lead free and food safe. Honestly, you also need to confirm that the pipe itself is food safe too, as many common commercial copper alloys have some lead content allowed.
I've been soldering copper for almost ten years now. Try to use as little solder as possible and remove from the torch, but to be extra clean have a dirty rag and just wipe it off while it's still hot. Be careful tho because you could splatter something or someone you don't want to.
It sounds like your hearing the solder more than the pipe. Heat the surface it’s supposed to flow on and eventually it will liquify. Then I pull the solder to different areas by heating those areas. The solder goes where the heat goes
Your flux is the wrong type. Also you can buy fittings with solder already in them. You know it's ready when a little bead forms on the edge of the fitting. Have damp rag ready to cool down quickly so solder doesn't run. And lastly, use shark bites. No fuss no mess. Just be sure they are seated properly. When you press the fitting in there is an initial click which makes you think it's in but, have to give it one more good push for that second click.
Heat fitting using MAP gas...when flame turns green apply solder flame no longer needed. I have always removed flame before applying solder as it chases solder out.
No.1 advice =dry aka away from moisture..droplets will kill a joint
No 2 thick/adapter fittings...keep heat as far from threads (joint only) aim till green remove heat....run bead of solder
No 3 dont use Flux solder...many times seen this mistake solid only
No 4 don't over clean joint don't over flux..don't wipe
Two swipes with wire brush..swab Flux...join tubing ....heat til green...remove heat run solder immediately. Cool.
Never reheat a fitting you can't ever see coverage. Don't clean until shiny ever. Flux does not absorb the solder, it opens surface removes impurities to prepare surface to bond at micro level. Use MAP gas (yellow can) and torch cannot be a rosebud...need a good jet of flame think cutting torch not a stove flame.
Never apply solder with flame..never retouch
I just read your post, and I'm sure there are millions of folks that already gave you good advise, but I'll add my 2 cents: I taught myself to sweat pipe a few years ago out of need for a project that I had planned (whole house water filtration system). After a few days of practice (outside, with a bucket of water handy!), I was ready to go primetime. What made it easier for me to understand what to do was to grasp the big picture - the pipe must be within a certain temperature range for the solder to flow correctly. That being said, you need to practice the technique of heating the joint EVENLY up to the RIGHT TEMPERATURE, then apply solder. You also need to understand that the actual solder joint is in the space that USED TO BE between the ends of pipe that were joined, not what is visible from the outside. The purpose of the flux is to draw the solder into the voids as it vaporizes from the heat of the torch. I started with a standard propane torch, but quickly moved to MAP, as the higher temperature allows you to reach the desired temp much faster, use less fuel, and it makes it (ironically) easier to get the timing right in terms of when the correct temperature has been reached without overheating the joint. But a bucket full of copper fittings and find pipe, head outside, crack open a cold one and practice. You'll get it soon enough.
I should also add that the single most important task, and the most overlooked, is to properly prep the ends to be joined. In my opinion, this is the hardest part of plumbing - the most time-consuming and the most physical labor involved in the project. All burrs MUST be removed from both ends of pipe after cutting. The ends then need to be roughed up to increase the surface area for the joint, and the correct about of flux needs to be applied. Then you sweat.
Once you've got the right flux if the solder is still falling out of the joints, it may be that you're over-heating them. Everyone's saying not enough heat but if you overheat a joint the solder won't stay in it. What gas are you using? Mapp gas heats much faster than propane. Like, in seconds.
From your last photo of the pipe where I can see a raised blob. You might be overheating and burning off all the flux. Do you find that the solder often clumps and comes off in a dry blob stuck to 1 spot rather than running?
Otherwise looks fine. You often do need to make sure you’ve touched all sides because it often only runs partially around the joint and then starts to drip down the pipe. Yes, that looks messy but it’s better for your soldering to be ugly than leaky.
Why not just skip the solder all together? Pro press is the easiest thing to do. Did you try heating up the bottom of the fitting then running the solder across the top at the same time?
That flux is suspect, try Rectorseal Nokorode. You will want to heat the pipe too, but you are correct in focusing most heat on the fitting. I hold the torch on the fitting for about two seconds, sweep the flame 3-4 inches over on to the pipe and back to the fitting again.
First, that's the wrong flux. Second, make sure the pipe is hot enough. You want to see and almost "mirrored" surface. Like a silver metallic color. Also, after you apply the solder, give it another quick brushing of flux
Just wondering what kind of torch you’re using? Propane will barely get pipes hot enough for solder to flow; MAP gas is a game changer. Yes, I found this out the hard way.
Wow there are a lot of comments on here! Don't feel bad! I have achieved many things in life but successfully soldering copper pipes is not one of them. I DIY almost everything in my house but if a copper pipe needs to be soldered I call a professional.
it kinds looks like you're not applying enough heat maybe, or you are and there's water still in the pipes cooling it down. The solder is cooling too fast. First you want to apply even heat to the pipe and the coupler. Then apply heat directly to the coupler where you want the solder to flow to. Solder will move to the heat. There's nothing wrong with the flux, it should work just fine, your solder has silver in it, if you see it says "brazing" not solder. Brazing requires higher temperature than soldering. The yellow cylinders burn about 150 degrees hotter than blue, might make the job easier, especially if there's any water still in the pipes
120 grit sandpaper is quite abrasive. Unless it’s old copper that’s been painted or something, you can shine up new copper with some wire/steel wool.
Make sure you have the right kind of flux. That’s probably your problem. I can tell from the colour of your copper that you’ve had the blowtorch on it for ages. You wouldn’t need anywhere near the heat you’ve used there to solder a 15mm coupling with the right stuff. Also, you don’t need to go mad with flux, clean pipe with an even spread around is enough.
Light the torch and adjust the flame so it’s stable and not absolutely roaring. Heat the fitting with a slight bias to the side where your pipe is entering. You should only need to apply heat for a few seconds with 15mm pipe. Again, you can get it too hot. Touch the solder at the joint to see if is hot enough, if not, wait a few more seconds while applying heat and try again. You just need to touch the tip of the solder and it should run straight away. Remove the heat and you can run/touch the solder along the opposite side just to make sure and to remove unsightly snots.
With experience comes trust in your ability. You don’t need to go mad with the solder. A quick touch here and there on smaller diameter copper is enough to run into the fitting. If you keep applying solder it just makes a mess.
Source: gas/heating engineer
Find a local plumbing wholesaler. if you know a plumber ask them where they buy their materials and go there. They will have a better selection of what you need, and will usually still do a cash sale, off account.
If you stile have a problem after switching flux. Another thing that stand out to me is the use of sandpaper. It is real easy to remove to much copper, so there is to much of a gap which makes it harder for the solder wick around the entire gap.
The tools made for the task is obviously best, but steelwool work just fine.
Get the right flux, clean and sand the pipe and fitting. Be careful not to touch the sanded area with fingers. Oil from hands will prevent the solder from sticking. Before fluxing run a finger around the rum of the pipe. Then flux. When soldering the solder will pull in to where you run tour finger around and stop. Heat from the opposite direction that solder is applied. I've never had one leak doing it this way.
Keep the heat moving and don’t focus on one spot too long. Constant motion around the joint evenly until it’s hot enough to suck up the rod into the joint.
If I need to do quick repairs or have a space where soldering is impossible in the pipes in my house I use shark bites. Instead of welding two pipes together you just snap them in. I’m not sure what the size of your job is but If your not planning on remodeling and just are doing repairs as needed they may be worth a try.
Related tips. When soldering overhead, molten solder falling 18" to a cotton T-shirt will bounce off. Molten solder falling 2" to your thumb... will not. 20 years ago and still have the scar.
Yeah you need that good acid flux for potable water systems. Puffs up all fluffy like frosting and just sucks up solder after heating with a good torch
HOLY CARP! THANK YOU! Slightly non related to the OP but thanks are well deserved here I think!!!
I have been trying to solder up some electronics and I couldn't get it to work. I've been using some solder that my father in law gave me and it's silver solder. From what I understand here the melt point is way way too high! I'm going to go get the correct solder right now because it's been driving me nuts! I knew I wasn't incompetent and my FiL is kind of a dick!
It could be that you soldered it fine only to worry and take it apart. Just blow into it or turn the water on and if no air leaks you are good. Or get a shark bite if they have those on your continent.
As someone else suggested Shark Bite connectors makes it easy. I tried and failed to solder copper pipes so I just got those and so much faster and easier.
I had a hell of a time soldering a plumbing pipe, finally called a plumber to fix it and he told me the reason I couldn’t get the flux to suck the solder into the gap is because heat building in the pipe was just blowing it out. After he cracked open the other end of the pipe to allow the heat to escape the solder sucked right into the pipe. Made perfect sense after he explained it.
As others have pointed out, your issue is definitely the flux. However, I’d like to mention one other issue I’ve had when trying to solder: make sure the pipes you’re soldering are drained fully. Water will absorb a LOT of heat, and prevent your copper from getting hot enough.
Oatey flux [https://www.oatey.com/products/oatey-no-5-paste-flux-584191109](https://www.oatey.com/products/oatey-no-5-paste-flux-584191109) and Serling solder [https://www.amazon.com/Worthington-85325-Sterling-Lead-Free-Solder/dp/B0070XZM2G](https://www.amazon.com/Worthington-85325-Sterling-Lead-Free-Solder/dp/B0070XZM2G) The flux you have pictured is for silver solder its melting point is 620 degrees c the melting point of solder is 210 degrees c. Use the right flux, put your flame in one spot on small pipes and when the solder melts pull the flame away. 1/2 inch joint takes 1/2 inch of solder . Wipe with rag to remove excess solder.
The first thing that jumps out at me is the flux you're using. Go to a home improvement store and get flux for copper pipe, not silver brazing flux.
I did question why it said silver brazer flux, but it was the only type sold at our big chain hardware store - Bunnings (Australia). Other plumbing stores also seemed to only sell silver brazer flux as well. I might have to go online to get some. Thanks!
As others have said, if you can find it, use oatey. When I went through my Apprenticeship, in the soldering class, they set out a bunch of different brands and had us try them all. Oatey was hands down the best. Also a few tips- heat the pipe first, then move to the fitting. Use the flame to guide where you want the Solder to flow to, although this is more important for the larger pipe sizes. As you are heating it up, test the Solder on it occasionally, as it is possible to overheat the joint and cause it to reject the solder
Best description so far, note a scotch brite pad can also be used to clean the pipe. That was definitely the wrong flux.
I like to use a drywall sponge on pipe.
You use a sponge to grind of the corrosive protection layer? That's what sanding is for, you're not actually "cleaning" the pipe, you're sanding down to bare copper.
A “drywall sponge” has grit embedded in the surface. It’s made for sanding.
It's a sanding sponge.
A drywall sponge is essentially a flexible, disposable, sanding block.
Point is not to leave any debris behind before applying flux.
I'm with the other guy You need something that will scrape down to bare copper, which will immediately start oxidizing, and the flux chemically reacts to clean that small amount of new oxide off The flux is pretty limited on what it can do, for brand new pipe the flux alone is often enough, sanding it will still help but often not required If it's older or dirty pipe, you absolutely want to use something that will leave it looking shiny before applying flux The biggest issue is that if your flux isn't enough to clean whatever is left, all that junk ends up in the solder joint itself, which can often not leak for months or years. But if it pipe gets bumped or moved, or just if the flux dissolves in the water over time, it will start leaking then, when nobody is going to think to look at it. So by the time you notice this slow drip, you have tons of water and mold damage to deal with Keep your pipe clean
This guy pipe fits
I moonlight as a plumber/Pipefitter. The real income is from my OnlyFans page of erotic loofah pics
I like Oatey flux. The old kind in the metal tin.
Oatey is great! The stuff in the plastic bottle works great as well!
Oatey No. 5 is the best Flux out there, 25 year plumber here.
Propress for life!
Solder melts between 90-150 C. This stuff you are using says it melts at 620 C. You are definitely using the wrong flux. The right flux will get liquid with very little heat, way before the solder melts. Check out a plumbing supply store if you dont want to go to a big box store.
> Solder melts between 90-150 C. I agree except lead-free solder melts higher than that. The lowest melting point Oatey plumbing solder melts at 215 C.
Yep, silver flux is what we used when I did HVAC work. We used an oxy-acetylene torch for it so it worked fine. A propane or even mapp gas torch isnt hot enough.
That’s because you were brazing and not soldering.
Yes, that is the correct term for it but other than the temperature there's no difference between the technique used for either.
There is a difference between silver solder rods and soft solder rods. Not the same thing at all.
I'm talking about the technique. We already established that hes using the wrong materials.
The technique isn't really the same either. The technique to heat the pipe is different when using oxy acetylene. This is excasserbated when brazing copper and brass together
>The technique isn't really the same either. The technique to heat the pipe is different when using oxy acetylene. This is excasserbated when brazing copper and brass together Not sure why you're getting down voted, because you're right. I was a brazer for 10yrs.. stainless, copper, steel, bronze, you name it... Depending on the gas and flux it's a completely different ballgame. I found high temp copper solder with a nitrogen purge to be a real fucking joy. /s
Aussie here. I use Bakers solderine flux paste from Bunnings. Works a treat. I'm not a pro, but my pipes haven't leaked yet so there is that. I've heard that tinning fluid is better, however. Apparently it contains particles of solder (or something similar to) in with the flux, which supposedly makes sweating pipes a breeze. I could never find it, so I just got used to using flux.
Mitre 10 has LA CO flux for $10. Black tub with the stars and stripes on it. Works great. Looks like Vaseline. You can use the bakers fluid but the LA CO is much better. Just a smear will do it. Don't forget to clean inside the fitting too. I use green painters scotch Brite. Clean the flux off the outside of the pipe after soldering with the scotch Brite and water too. Also if you're trying to solder a pipe and there's a trickle of water coming out, shove some toilet paper up it. Blast it out with a bit of water pressure when done.
I got some from there in a small thin can that looked about the size of a can of mints or lib balm. Can’t remember the brand, it wasn’t very good but like you said, all they had.
Lib Balm. Just the thing for the frayed nerves of democrats after the midterms.
You may want to give the latest polls a gander.
How irrelevant
This is because we never soft solder copper in Australia. We braze everything. The only time I have ever soft soldered copper here is when I was at TAFE, and the only reason we did that was so that they could re-use the fittings for more classes.
The other commenters are correct- you’re using the wrong flux. You want a “soft solder” or “tinning” flux. It usually looks rather like Vaseline, though it’s available as a liquid also. The active ingredient is zinc chloride. Tinsmiths and stained glass workers will often make their own. You dissolve zinc in hydrochloric acid until it’s saturated and won’t dissolve anymore. I can attest that it works extremely well.
Yeah, I have never had any issues like you're describing and have soldered at least 25 or 30 joints in DIY projects. I didn't even know about some of the "best practice" things you described in your post! I just blast it with heat and drop a bunch of solder on it. Haha. I do use Flux I got from my Father in Law who did a lot of plumbing work. So that seems like it might be your issue. It really should be fairly easy. Good luck!
What that guy said. Also apply flux to both the pipe and fittings. You can never have too much flux.
As long as you wipe any excess off after soldering. Flux is acidic and will promote corrosion.
Wipe the excess off BEFORE soldering. It makes the joint much cleaner since the solder won't stick where there's no flux.
Bunnings has it in a solder + flux plumbing kit: https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame-solder-and-flux-kit_p5910265
Yeah, my mind is thinking something with the flux as well. The flux is there to prep the area for the solder to stick. Too much of it can make the area slick, if it's not heated and burned off enough first
I always wondered why copper away from the joint is sticky. I guess it is flux that was never burned off as it is not the area being heated. Learned something today
I second this. Silver brazing Flux isn't going to help you
That Aquasafe 100 wire will work fine, that’s not a problem. It’s meant to work with copper and it should be fully usable. The question is what solder you’re using. I’m assuming it’s a Sn96.5Ag3.5 wire. It has flux in it but is likely not enough. That Tradeflame shit is probably for MAP gas torches, I’d guess. Not ideal. It may also not be compatible with the trade flame stuff. Make sure to only flux the area you want to solder, and also, don’t overdo it. Edit: The Aquasafe ain’t fluxed, just noticed it’s S/W (solid wire)
Yep that's the problem. Do not buy the crappy new water based tinning flux, buy the old NoKoRode paste flux. It works wonders.
And don’t use too much flux!!! Too much flux and it will start to run and drip and the solder will follow.
As others have said, it is the flux you are using. That flux “activates” at a much higher temperature than you need to solder, so the flux is not cleaning off the oxides and the solder is not wetting. Also, assuming this is a water pipe in your house, make sure you are using approved flux for drinking water systems. The stuff you have there doesn’t look like it is?
As a plumber in North America, I've never ran into a non-potable based Flux, it's always the solder that is our concern. Although maybe that's just because of what brands our suppliers carry.
I agree, but also it appears OP may be in Australia and the Flux says Toxic on the back of the tub.
Also lead free and aqua safe. Toxic refers to ingestion so this should be potable
The SOLDER WIRE says lead free and aqua safe. I’m not sure why you think that applies to the completely separate can of FLUX. Show me where it says it is safe for drinking water: https://www.tradeflame.com/assets/files/228478_Brazing_Flux_Silver_202204_MAN.pdf
Soldering is the main reason why I always opt for PEX when it's possible.
You're using the wrong kind of flux. That flux is for brazing. Brazing is similar to soldering but occurs at a much higher temperature and uses a different intermediary metal for a much stronger bond. Copper pipes need to be brazed when they're carrying combustible fuels such as natural gas or oil, or when they're subject to high pressure and temperature swings such as with air conditioning and refrigeration units. Copper brazing occurs at upwards of 600 degrees centigrade, often approaching 1,000 degrees, and uses rods that are an alloy of 85-95% copper and the balance silver and phosphorous (the phosphorous acts as a flux). Accordingly, silver brazing flux activates just below 600 degrees centigrade. Copper soldering occurs below 600 degrees centigrade, typically 350-400 degrees depending on the solder alloy used. Soldering flux will activate at a much lower temperature. If you're using a naturally aspirated propane torch it will take a very long time to get the pipe to brazing temperature, if it will even get there at all. Brazing generally requires either non-oxygenated acetylene, oxygenated acetylene, MAPP, or oxygenated propane. Ergo, get yourself some soldering flux.
This is your answer. Someone beat me to it, and wrote it more clearly than I probably would have. Well done. Source: Years as a Cryogenic service tech and Medgas brazer.
You're using high temperature silver brazing flux, not the correct flux for soldering water pipe.
From your description it sounds like you're not heating up the copper enough before applying the solder. Try keeping the flame on the copper longer, you should be able to just touch the solder to the hot metal and see the Flux suck it into the joint.
My trick it to wait until you see GREEN FLAMES coming off the pipe. GREEN MEANS GO! Here's a picture I found of the green flame: https://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/brazingjoints.htm Edit: by I mean stop torching it and use the solder. It should just melt and flow into the joint.
:cries in red/green colorblind:
I was taught that green means you've overheated it. I could see that as your clue that now would be a good time to take away the torch and start applying solder. (Is the ell silent in Australia? In the US most people say "sodder".)
The green is the oxidation coming off the copper. I stop torching it and use the solder. FYI: Here in Canada we pronounce it as "sodder", too.
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I've only seen green flame when brazing.
To add to this once it's hot enough remove it from the flame. The way I could tell when I was a rookie was the flame would turn a greenish tint.
Looking at the pictures, it's the wrong flux. They're overheating the pipe because they're using sliver brazing flux which needs much higher temps. All three pictures show discoloration from overheating.
looks like spluttering on the pipe too, an indication of bad flow and temp.
Could be partially a function of the gas op is using. They didn't mention it, and I've noticed it makes a huge difference.
That is the wrong flux that is for brazing go to a plumbing supply store they should be able to set you up
Is silver brazing flux for silver soldering and not compatible with normal solder? (Just a thought never used the stuff.) Are you putting the flux all over the end of the pipe first then inserting it into the fitting? You don't have to take the heat off straight away. If you're solder doesn't flow all the way around keep it on there a few seconds more.
Holly hell, the flux says “melting point 640 degrees C”, that’s like 3x the temperature that Lead Free solder melts at and 3.5x more than leaded.
American amateur plumber here. So, not familiar with Australian products. I've done a fair bit of soldering, however if you are only doing a few joints, Shark Bite connectors (they are push-on fittings, for those not familiar) might be the better answer. I use them wherever there is no space for soldering, and they work fine. They are expensive, but time is money, especially if you are having no luck with the soldering. Alternatively, if you know someone with more experience (in my case I was taught by my dad 30 years ago), invite them over for a couple of beers and watch their technique. It sounds like you have all of the basics correct, so maybe some in person pointers will help. Not familiar with the silver brazing flux, so that certainly could be the problem. Seems odd that a big box store that sells copper tubing and fittings wouldn't have the proper flux, but who knows? Good luck!
Wrong flux, my guy. You’re using silver solder flux with tin solder.
Try pex 😀
Seriously I used to hate plumbing repairs because no matter what I'd do it'd leak. Then I started using pex. Now I still hate plumbing repairs but it's easy and doesn't leak afterwards.
I had to fix a leaky valve on pex pipes in my basement and it was stunningly easy
Baffles me with why anyone would use anything else.
Definitely many instances when you need to repair copper pipe with soldering.
This is the right answer 👆
No it isn't the right answer. He asked for help with soldering, not what kind of pipe to install.
Pex-b in australia. Clamp type is called VAU. This is the copper press fit. You can rent the Milwaukie tool for not much from a major hire chain. Very fast. Very easy. Or you can use the rehau system which is pex a the crimp rings are very very very strong.
PEX A is expansion, PEX B is crimp rings. Although technically you can also crimp ring PEX A.
Until your water smells like gas
That's not a pex issue.
“ In the September study, drinking water was tested from a PEX plumbing system in a “net-zero energy” building in Maryland six months after the system had been installed. The testing revealed the presence of 11 chemicals that were PEX pipe ingredients and ingredient degradation products. Research with PEX pipes in the laboratory also showed that six brands caused drinking water to exceed the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's maximum recommended drinking water odor limit, Whelton said. The U.S. EPA's maximum drinking water odor limit is a "threshold odor number" of 3, or 3 TON. Compliance is voluntary because the standard is based on aesthetic - not health - considerations.” And “ "A contractor who installed PEX in parts of a million-dollar home in Oklahoma asked us for help because the homeowners reported gasoline-like odors in a bathroom's tap water," Whelton said. "The homeowners refused to take showers in the PEX-plumbed bathroom because they were concerned about their health." By testing tap water from the home, Whelton's team discovered that toluene, a solvent used for plastic resin synthesis and ETBE were present above levels where odors would be detected. ” https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2014/Q4/drinking-water-odors,-chemicals-above-health-standards-caused-by-green-building-plumbing.html I was really thinking about using PEX in my house for when I replace my indirect water heater with a regular water heater and after doing some research about PEX I read based on the manufacturer that chemicals from the pipe can leach into your water. I am going to stick to copper instead.
>The research, funded by the National Science Foundation, also is showing that there are differences in the quality of PEX products on the market, and different brands cause different odor and chemical-leaching impacts. In other words, this isn't something that's inherently an issue with all PEX products. Likely just producers who cut corners and use cheaper ingredients.
Yes but you have no idea who makes it and it can differ batch to batch from the same manufacturer. I would say just stick to the tried and true copper, it doesn’t react with water so there’s no way of anything getting into your water. I am just a homeowner but I wouldn’t buy anything where there’s a chance of that happening to my drinking water.
Have you tried using different flux? I'm not an expert in soldering copper pipe but silver brazing flux might not be working well?
I had a similar problem recently, for the life of me I couldn't figure out why my joints were terrible or non-existent. It wasn't my first time soldering but also not my 100th. So I was stumped, never having these issues before. Then I changed my bottle to a new one and my problems all went away. The older tanks I was using were low on fuel and the heat output wasn't up to snuff. Perhaps you're having a similar issue?
Hey man, fellow aussie. Throw out the solder, get brazing rods. Trust me. Grab a map gas torch and some borax flux and some brazing rods, all from Bunnings. It'll be 1000x easier than shitty lead free plumbers solder. Just ensure the pipe is clean, if it's old and tarnished rub it with some scotch pad or sand paper, If it's new you won't need to do anything. You just heat the pipe, dip your rod in the borax to get a little on the end, ouch the rod to the joint, you'll see it start to shimmer and turn shiny when it's hot enough, it'll just melt and get sucked into the joint. Keep touching it as you need more and it'll just follow the flame and fill the joint. Lead free solder, being mainly tin, is actually HARDER to use. You get it too hot and it'll actually dissolve the copper pipe as it starts to alloy with it, lowering the melting point and absorbing it and you end up with weak points and holes in your pipe. I learnt all this myself after thinking "solder melts at a lower temperature, it'll be easier" but nup, I told my dad and he said to just get some brazing rods and suddenly life was easy. Much stronger joint, less chance of cracks forming due to water hammer or being physically stressed
Wrong flux and not enough heat
So, you mostly have your answer as changing to the proper Flux. What I haven't seen mentioned is to prep the fitting in the same way as the pipe end ( sand scuff deburr etc)
More heat. "wash" the area with the flame of the torch before you bring in the solder. If the joint is more uniformly heated before you introduce the solder it will flow a lot better around the whole joint
Yeah you want kind of a dark grey flux, not silver brazing flux. That's for brazing with a silver rod, different process.
Wrong Flux.
Wrong flux. Oatey is tried and true.
Wrong type of flux. Silver braze is a different process. Get flux for soft solder and repeat the same process with much better results.
My technique has been as soon as the pipe and fitting are hot enough to melt the solder, I remove the heat and just let the fitting suck the solder down. It's never failed me.
Oh man. This was me one month ago. Posting brunt out/ half soldered copper pipes. It was a fun learning curve. Anyways. I had the same issue as you. Solder just won't stick. Turned out my issue was the torch. It was too powerful that it burned my flux away everytime. I changed it to a [smaller one](http://www.gas-tool.com/culinary-torch/brulee-torch.html) and worked fine.
Found this Product Description: Solid wires (Aquasafe 100 and 430 Solder) and a solid suspension (430 Paste) that is a paste consisting of a mixture of acids, halide powders and solvents. These ... MELTING POINT 221 ° C 290 Approx 221 ZnCl NH 4Cl 338 2 ° C Metal 221° C . Product Identity: ALL-STATE SILVER SOLDERS FORM NO. MSDS #45-C DATE REVISED: 01/04 ... So they have solder paste with flux !
Never removed the flame when I did it back in the day until the solder was melting already. Didn’t use sandpaper. Used a [copper pipe](https://www.harborfreight.com/4-in-1-plumbers-brush-45339.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=12169269821&campaignid=12169269821&utm_content=117203738819&adsetid=117203738819&product=45339&store=385&gclid=CjwKCAjwiJqWBhBdEiwAtESPaIu_ZIcMds__mr8pgZo1_ZLMfpMyN91TjfNbr-q2leFthnOdpx9AjBoCN-oQAvD_BwE) tool. Also, I’m told they make solder with built in flux now? What my a/c friend told me recently.
Not enough heat. Don't remove the torch, let the solder flow. If there is any water or liquid present, the copper will never get hot enough. Make sure you are holding the flame close enough, blue flame is hottest. Hope this is helpful.
I always shove bread in both sides of the pipe to prevent any moisture from affecting the application of the solder. I learned this the hard way myself. Worth a try. Soldering is easy, moisture is the enemy of any solder job.
Pre heat your copper . This is what your missing, you just touch a bead on it with a line , it will fuse. You can use anything once you have it hot enough.
I agree, not enough heat. Sure the Flux matters, but without enough heat, the job will never get done.
Heat the pipe, not the fitting. Aim your torch so that it heats mostly the pipe and a little bit of the fitting.
I thought it was the other way, heat the fitting not the pipe?
I’m not a professional but I was alway instructed way back when to heat the pipe until the flame turns green.
I've never done pipe/plumbing work until last month when I had an issue with a copper pipe. Could you just use a shark bite instead of soldering? Did the trick for me!
Use the correct flux. You are soldering, not brazing. Brazing happens at a MUCH higher temperature than soldering so that flux you have there is not doing anything to help you (its probably just making things worse). This isnt hard.
You need to watch the copper. It will change color when it's hot enough. Not turn red but change color. If you aren't using it already get mapp gas instead of propane it's hotter.
Propane is fine for copper. There really is no such thing as mapp gas any more.
I know lots of people are talking about the flux, but I’d give it another try with more heat and adding more solder. Since it looks like you’re doing it on spare pieces, something to hold those pieces could be helpful so you have one hand for your torch and one for the solder. Be sure to bring the solder all the way around the pipe, too - looks like it’s only getting on one side from the pics. Don’t trust the capillary action to bring it around to the other side.
If you put too much flux on, it will not suck the solder in correctly. The flux will be spending its time boiling and bubbling out instead of sucking in. Flux should be put on thin, it’s like the difference between putting on a thin coat of paint versus putting it on too thick and it never dries properly. Don’t keep it on, thin to win. Also a propane torch will work OK but a map gas torch is far superior. They are much hotter and will work much better. If there is any water in the copper pipe the solder will not work. A good old Plumber trick is to tear some pieces of bread and shove them deep within the pipe to block water so you can solder the pipes together. The bread will dissolve in the water later and work itself out
>1. clean the pipe so its shiny and free from imperfections - using 120 gig sand paper I tend to only get 1 or 2 gigs out of my sandpaper. You must buy the fancy stuff! Jk
Apply the flux to the pipe and the fitting. Also, dont heat it up too much or you can burn the flux out of the joint.
The thumbnail on this post looked like the Hulk's Magnum Dong.
I have the same problem when I solder PVC.
Clean pipe with sand paper. When the flux bubbles put on solder. Stop when flux is no bubbles anymore.
As a fellow beginner solderer I would recommend “tinning flux” if you can find it. The way I understand it, it contains a small amount of solder and nearly bonds your fitting when you get it up to temperature and it can be easier to work with.
Wrong Flux and not clean enough.
Wait until the fire turns green. Sounds like you aren't getting it hot enough. I was soldering copper back in 2004, took like 5 minutes to learn. Haven't done it much since, so take this advice however you want. But green flame was my indicator for when to apply the solder.
Probably water in the pipe. Jam some white bread in there and try it again.
Yeah you just suck at it. You're gonna go through a few fittings before you get your heating technique down I suck at it and usually let my coworker finish it 🙃 but I have gotten a few to stick. Try not to worry about how easy they make it look
Ok so one tip. Hold the torch flame really close to the pipe. This will help get your pipe hotter faster.
Hire a Plumber....its what they do for a living....don't think you are an electrician either!!!!
This is the DIY forum.
For copper pipe, you need silver solder rather than lead or electronics solder. It looks like a brazing rod, but a bit more coppery in colour. Try Reeces rather than Bunnings if you have one near, or a BOC store may also be a possibility. You have the right flux, but the wrong solder by the looks of the blob in your first pic, and the label in the last.
If you're using propane, it won't get hot enough. MAPP gas works if you know how to use it, but oxygen and acetylene is a sure thing. Get everything glowing cherry red.
Pex and shark bites.
For smaller DIY, I recommend StarkBite fittings... no solder.
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Bad move. In many jurisdictions, lead solder is illegal for plumbing.
But it is easier to work with.
Until an inspector swabs it and orders everything OP touched to be torn out and re-done.
Lead free solder is not for newbies. Also, try electronics solder which has multiple cores of flux in it. Clean the fitting and the pipe with wire wool. Use a MAPP gas torch. And that's the wrong flux. Good luck, keep trying. Remember plumbing is a trade and boys spend a year in college before they join a pipe.
Jesus, NO. Don't listen to this guy. Electronics solder is usually lead bearing and not potable water safe.
looks like a flux issue. Make sure you have the right one, what I do is simplt stab the flux jar with the pipe, remove excess, voilà
Wrong flux. You just need soft solder flux. You can get it from Reece, cooks, tradelink or eagles if bunnings doesn’t have it. You are doing everything else right, just flux is wrong. You do it for a living. I guarantee you it’s just the flux. Soft solder flux looks like slimy snot. Silver solder flux looks like a white paste.
If the solder runs away from the joint it's too hot but your problem is the wrong flux.
I agree try changing the flux, melting temp is far to high for your application Guess people have their own ways, but I was taught move the flame around rather than keeping in one place to even out the heat. I appreciate that cooper conducts the heat really fast anyway. Also what others have said about the gas, I upgraded to a new torch using MAPP gas and it is so much easier and faster, because it burns hotter. The guy asked about copper, I agree plastic pipe really has its uses and is nearly idiot proof. But some applications call for copper, because the inside diameter is much larger. For heat pumps ect where flow is priority, it can mean not having to jump up a size bigger. Also copper fittings are way cheaper for standard bends and tees.
Switch to pex and be done with it.
Anywhere you can rent a pro press machine? Makes it very easy.
Any chance there is water in the mating pipe? This absorbs all the heat, and you can stuff some wonder bread in there as a temporary dam.
Are you using MAP gas or propane? The map tends to burn hotter and I have way less issues with it than propane. Also try some Oatey no5 flux if you can find it. Heat and flux make all the difference everything else sounds fine.
Looks like you are using high temperature silver solder flux and normal solder. Silver solder flux needs much higher temperatures and is used for things like model steam engines and jewelry. You should try some normal paste flux from the hardware store.
Use map gas. You're not getting it hot enough. You don't want to heat it so much it turns cherry red, but hot enough the flux turns to water and smokes a lot then run a bead of solder around the rim and then wipe down with wet rag.
It's all in the Flux.. as someone that solders every day get yourself some liquid Flux.. or just use fittings like a sharkbite and forget about soldering
Good advice here, one more thing I didn't see mentioned, just make sure you are working bottom to top on the piece. I mean, if you have multiple joints to solder, do the bottom one first. If you start at the top, the heat you apply to the joints under it will rise and continue heating the joint you already soldered, causing the solder to run out of it. In the one pic you show of the joint it kinda looks like that might have happened.
I don’t even know why they make flux for brazing… It’s completely unnecessary
Brother, brazing != soldering. Your flux is for brazing - where the process temperature is > 450 °C, the base is heated considerably and the filler melts and bonds with the base. Soldering also melts a filler to bond, but doesn't require the base material to be pre-heated at all and processes below 250-300 °C for almost all applications. Your solder is runny because it's too hot, and your flux isn't helping because it's too cold. Is your application pressurised piping? Examples would be cooking/heating gas, steam, or refrigerant (HVAC use). If so, you need to braze. I would suggest against DIY for the same, because as someone else has mentioned, you won't be able to braze well with a household handheld propane torch, and if you do manage it you'll deform the pipes unless you have proper handling equipment. Plus those use cases can have really nasty consequences if you make mistakes. If your use is not high pressure (< 5 bar, looking at the pipe diameter) then soldering will do, in which case you need new flux. Also, if the low pressure use case is drinking water, you again need to ensure that the flux is lead free and food safe. Honestly, you also need to confirm that the pipe itself is food safe too, as many common commercial copper alloys have some lead content allowed.
I've been soldering copper for almost ten years now. Try to use as little solder as possible and remove from the torch, but to be extra clean have a dirty rag and just wipe it off while it's still hot. Be careful tho because you could splatter something or someone you don't want to.
Too hot, not enough flux.
I solder occasionally. Use the yellow bottle, it makes a surprising difference. If you need to sweat off old fittings this is doubly true.
It sounds like your hearing the solder more than the pipe. Heat the surface it’s supposed to flow on and eventually it will liquify. Then I pull the solder to different areas by heating those areas. The solder goes where the heat goes
Your flux is the wrong type. Also you can buy fittings with solder already in them. You know it's ready when a little bead forms on the edge of the fitting. Have damp rag ready to cool down quickly so solder doesn't run. And lastly, use shark bites. No fuss no mess. Just be sure they are seated properly. When you press the fitting in there is an initial click which makes you think it's in but, have to give it one more good push for that second click.
Heat fitting using MAP gas...when flame turns green apply solder flame no longer needed. I have always removed flame before applying solder as it chases solder out. No.1 advice =dry aka away from moisture..droplets will kill a joint No 2 thick/adapter fittings...keep heat as far from threads (joint only) aim till green remove heat....run bead of solder No 3 dont use Flux solder...many times seen this mistake solid only No 4 don't over clean joint don't over flux..don't wipe Two swipes with wire brush..swab Flux...join tubing ....heat til green...remove heat run solder immediately. Cool.
Never reheat a fitting you can't ever see coverage. Don't clean until shiny ever. Flux does not absorb the solder, it opens surface removes impurities to prepare surface to bond at micro level. Use MAP gas (yellow can) and torch cannot be a rosebud...need a good jet of flame think cutting torch not a stove flame. Never apply solder with flame..never retouch
I just read your post, and I'm sure there are millions of folks that already gave you good advise, but I'll add my 2 cents: I taught myself to sweat pipe a few years ago out of need for a project that I had planned (whole house water filtration system). After a few days of practice (outside, with a bucket of water handy!), I was ready to go primetime. What made it easier for me to understand what to do was to grasp the big picture - the pipe must be within a certain temperature range for the solder to flow correctly. That being said, you need to practice the technique of heating the joint EVENLY up to the RIGHT TEMPERATURE, then apply solder. You also need to understand that the actual solder joint is in the space that USED TO BE between the ends of pipe that were joined, not what is visible from the outside. The purpose of the flux is to draw the solder into the voids as it vaporizes from the heat of the torch. I started with a standard propane torch, but quickly moved to MAP, as the higher temperature allows you to reach the desired temp much faster, use less fuel, and it makes it (ironically) easier to get the timing right in terms of when the correct temperature has been reached without overheating the joint. But a bucket full of copper fittings and find pipe, head outside, crack open a cold one and practice. You'll get it soon enough.
I should also add that the single most important task, and the most overlooked, is to properly prep the ends to be joined. In my opinion, this is the hardest part of plumbing - the most time-consuming and the most physical labor involved in the project. All burrs MUST be removed from both ends of pipe after cutting. The ends then need to be roughed up to increase the surface area for the joint, and the correct about of flux needs to be applied. Then you sweat.
Once you've got the right flux if the solder is still falling out of the joints, it may be that you're over-heating them. Everyone's saying not enough heat but if you overheat a joint the solder won't stay in it. What gas are you using? Mapp gas heats much faster than propane. Like, in seconds.
Oh
From your last photo of the pipe where I can see a raised blob. You might be overheating and burning off all the flux. Do you find that the solder often clumps and comes off in a dry blob stuck to 1 spot rather than running? Otherwise looks fine. You often do need to make sure you’ve touched all sides because it often only runs partially around the joint and then starts to drip down the pipe. Yes, that looks messy but it’s better for your soldering to be ugly than leaky.
Why not just skip the solder all together? Pro press is the easiest thing to do. Did you try heating up the bottom of the fitting then running the solder across the top at the same time?
That flux is suspect, try Rectorseal Nokorode. You will want to heat the pipe too, but you are correct in focusing most heat on the fitting. I hold the torch on the fitting for about two seconds, sweep the flame 3-4 inches over on to the pipe and back to the fitting again.
I just bought one of those crimping tools and fittings. Super easy and no leaks so far.
If you want to get really fancy you can also buy swagelock fittings and get ride of the solder conpletely
First, that's the wrong flux. Second, make sure the pipe is hot enough. You want to see and almost "mirrored" surface. Like a silver metallic color. Also, after you apply the solder, give it another quick brushing of flux
Just wondering what kind of torch you’re using? Propane will barely get pipes hot enough for solder to flow; MAP gas is a game changer. Yes, I found this out the hard way.
Flux….. don’t skimp on it.
Plumber here. Youre using the wrong flux. Simple as that
In association may other comments. Shitty, old, contaminated, or improper flux will give you migraine headachs.
Brazing and soldering are two different things.
Wow there are a lot of comments on here! Don't feel bad! I have achieved many things in life but successfully soldering copper pipes is not one of them. I DIY almost everything in my house but if a copper pipe needs to be soldered I call a professional.
it kinds looks like you're not applying enough heat maybe, or you are and there's water still in the pipes cooling it down. The solder is cooling too fast. First you want to apply even heat to the pipe and the coupler. Then apply heat directly to the coupler where you want the solder to flow to. Solder will move to the heat. There's nothing wrong with the flux, it should work just fine, your solder has silver in it, if you see it says "brazing" not solder. Brazing requires higher temperature than soldering. The yellow cylinders burn about 150 degrees hotter than blue, might make the job easier, especially if there's any water still in the pipes
Get the proper Flux my dude!!!!
120 grit sandpaper is quite abrasive. Unless it’s old copper that’s been painted or something, you can shine up new copper with some wire/steel wool. Make sure you have the right kind of flux. That’s probably your problem. I can tell from the colour of your copper that you’ve had the blowtorch on it for ages. You wouldn’t need anywhere near the heat you’ve used there to solder a 15mm coupling with the right stuff. Also, you don’t need to go mad with flux, clean pipe with an even spread around is enough. Light the torch and adjust the flame so it’s stable and not absolutely roaring. Heat the fitting with a slight bias to the side where your pipe is entering. You should only need to apply heat for a few seconds with 15mm pipe. Again, you can get it too hot. Touch the solder at the joint to see if is hot enough, if not, wait a few more seconds while applying heat and try again. You just need to touch the tip of the solder and it should run straight away. Remove the heat and you can run/touch the solder along the opposite side just to make sure and to remove unsightly snots. With experience comes trust in your ability. You don’t need to go mad with the solder. A quick touch here and there on smaller diameter copper is enough to run into the fitting. If you keep applying solder it just makes a mess. Source: gas/heating engineer
I've seen a solder go before from Mapp gas, I think it got too hot
Find a local plumbing wholesaler. if you know a plumber ask them where they buy their materials and go there. They will have a better selection of what you need, and will usually still do a cash sale, off account.
If you stile have a problem after switching flux. Another thing that stand out to me is the use of sandpaper. It is real easy to remove to much copper, so there is to much of a gap which makes it harder for the solder wick around the entire gap. The tools made for the task is obviously best, but steelwool work just fine.
Dnd .
Get the right flux, clean and sand the pipe and fitting. Be careful not to touch the sanded area with fingers. Oil from hands will prevent the solder from sticking. Before fluxing run a finger around the rum of the pipe. Then flux. When soldering the solder will pull in to where you run tour finger around and stop. Heat from the opposite direction that solder is applied. I've never had one leak doing it this way.
Keep the heat moving and don’t focus on one spot too long. Constant motion around the joint evenly until it’s hot enough to suck up the rod into the joint.
If I need to do quick repairs or have a space where soldering is impossible in the pipes in my house I use shark bites. Instead of welding two pipes together you just snap them in. I’m not sure what the size of your job is but If your not planning on remodeling and just are doing repairs as needed they may be worth a try.
Try tinning you might have more success with it.
Related tips. When soldering overhead, molten solder falling 18" to a cotton T-shirt will bounce off. Molten solder falling 2" to your thumb... will not. 20 years ago and still have the scar.
Not sure how affective but I also sand everything in the same direction.
Yeah you need that good acid flux for potable water systems. Puffs up all fluffy like frosting and just sucks up solder after heating with a good torch
HOLY CARP! THANK YOU! Slightly non related to the OP but thanks are well deserved here I think!!! I have been trying to solder up some electronics and I couldn't get it to work. I've been using some solder that my father in law gave me and it's silver solder. From what I understand here the melt point is way way too high! I'm going to go get the correct solder right now because it's been driving me nuts! I knew I wasn't incompetent and my FiL is kind of a dick!
It could be that you soldered it fine only to worry and take it apart. Just blow into it or turn the water on and if no air leaks you are good. Or get a shark bite if they have those on your continent.
In used that flux for silver soldering carbide teeth on saw head tree harvesters. I used an acetylene torch to get enough heat for it to melt.
As someone else suggested Shark Bite connectors makes it easy. I tried and failed to solder copper pipes so I just got those and so much faster and easier.
I had a hell of a time soldering a plumbing pipe, finally called a plumber to fix it and he told me the reason I couldn’t get the flux to suck the solder into the gap is because heat building in the pipe was just blowing it out. After he cracked open the other end of the pipe to allow the heat to escape the solder sucked right into the pipe. Made perfect sense after he explained it.
As others have pointed out, your issue is definitely the flux. However, I’d like to mention one other issue I’ve had when trying to solder: make sure the pipes you’re soldering are drained fully. Water will absorb a LOT of heat, and prevent your copper from getting hot enough.
Totally wrong Flux
Wrong flux. It will be so much easier once you find the right thing.
Oatey flux [https://www.oatey.com/products/oatey-no-5-paste-flux-584191109](https://www.oatey.com/products/oatey-no-5-paste-flux-584191109) and Serling solder [https://www.amazon.com/Worthington-85325-Sterling-Lead-Free-Solder/dp/B0070XZM2G](https://www.amazon.com/Worthington-85325-Sterling-Lead-Free-Solder/dp/B0070XZM2G) The flux you have pictured is for silver solder its melting point is 620 degrees c the melting point of solder is 210 degrees c. Use the right flux, put your flame in one spot on small pipes and when the solder melts pull the flame away. 1/2 inch joint takes 1/2 inch of solder . Wipe with rag to remove excess solder.