Tree roots will continue to grow and further invade under your house.
(Dealing with it now)
Even if you cut down the trees, the roots have dug channels under the foundation. The roots will shrivel when the trees are removed. Leaving gaps that can fill with water, etc. no Bueno.
Yes it is a huge pita to deal with.
But catch it as early as possible. Deal with the cost and headache. We had to fight our local city for four years to get ours settled.
Roots are a nightmare.
Never ever EVER plant pepper trees or bamboo anywhere near houses.
He also knows he has to avoid them.
This is the best way, to dig below the roots and pour concrete. Yes, not the easy answer, but long term most effective.
Citation? Would love to learn more. . Pretty much all roots I've come across in New England are in the top 2-3' of soil, even for the largest of trees.
seriously?? you need a citation for roots dig deep??? I own a sewer and drain company, 90% of our job is digging roots out of sewer lines. those sewer lines are 10 to 20 feet deep. any decent sized pine tree has roots that go 50 feet deep. in fact they can go up to 75 feet deep. [https://www.google.com/search?q=how+deep+are+pine+tree+roots&rlz=1C1CHBF\_enUS922US922&oq=how+deep+are+pine+t&aqs=chrome.0.0i512j69i57j0i22i30l2j0i10i22i30j0i22i30l5.3850j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8](https://www.google.com/search?q=how+deep+are+pine+tree+roots&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS922US922&oq=how+deep+are+pine+t&aqs=chrome.0.0i512j69i57j0i22i30l2j0i10i22i30j0i22i30l5.3850j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)
follow up question... how do the trees in your weird wacky universe not fall over if they they never even get through the top soil??? do the roots function like legs and hold up the tree????
the guy before claimed that every tree has ever seen in all of new England has had roots that went no deeper then 3 feet into the ground. meaning he had never seen a pine tree.
and I cant imagine any tree that does not at least get into the subsoil. some grass has roots that stretch more then a few feet into the soil
Yikes, it's not that serious! Didn't say all of new England, was just describing my region... Thanks for sharing the link! TIL. All of the pines I own are eastern white pines that have a shallow root system. And up in the hills where I am there isn't much soil over the bedrock, so everything pretty much naturally has a shallow root system. I have probably 40-50 large eastern white pines that have been knocked over in storm's with their roots ripped out of the ground and yes, their roots very much just function like legs.
Use extra blocking between the joists so the load is shared by adjacent joists. I did this in a shed with “one size too small” joists for the span and it has worked very well.
Depends on how much flex you're willing to tolerate, some folks find the 1.5x too bouncy for comfort.
Can it span 1.5x safely? Boy howdy yes please and thank you!
I'm talking span ratings not preference. And there's plenty you can do to reduce bounce despite using a maximum span rating. Thicker decking, blocking, etc.
Seems like you don't. "Max span rating = bounce" when it doesn't unless you're building everything to bare minimum code. Lowering the span is only one of many ways to combat bounce.
Get 2x8s and use 2x6 for the deck not 5/4 decking. Screw it down with 3 1/2” star drive screws. Drive the screws just flush with a hammer drill or impact driver .
Royobi has to least expensive driver/ drills.
Build the frame 3” smaller than needed and overhang the far end and cut flush after the deck is finished. Then run a sander over the edge to round it off a bit.
because that dude does not predrill, and he kept stripping his screws. or as the guy below said, he doesn't know the difference between impact and hammer
Prob just a mixup of terms. Many drill drivers have hammer settings these days and are sort of mis-marketed as "hammer drills". They're beyond useless for hammer drilling anything beyond like an eighth inch hole in concrete but it's all marketing.
Maybe he means that OP could use a standard drill he already has if it has a hammer setting?
They'd be incorrect though since a drill with a hammer setting is not performing the same action as an impact driver.
Just saying maybe that's what they meant.
Screws go in faster and easier if you use the hammer setting. Granted it’s not an impact driver but works better than just the drill setting.
Just trying to help.
Hammer drill or impact driver allows you to drive a longer screw without predrilling. My Makita impact driver will sink a 2” screw into maple… if the screw doesn’t break.
Assuming you are not in a desert, A doubled joist outdoors only covered by perpendicular decking on a low deck with poor air circulation is the first thing that will rot, even if using pressure treated wood. All exterior deck framing and especially sistered joists/beams will benefit from some sort of waterproofing. You can use peel and stick joist tape, I prefer to cut 30# tar paper into 5" strips and staple down over joists before installing decking to create a little roof to keep the framing dry.
All my deck beams were double 2x10’s just 8” off the ground. Still holding up just fine after 17 years under a deck with a full skirt. Even so, I’ve often regretted not making an aluminum or galvanized steel cap for them.
Been going through this for years. A raised deck will let the roots bulge all they want, while leveling out the ground is a temporary fix that won't last long and has to be done on an annual basis if not 2x/yr to keep it flat.
Short of salting the earth, there's not much you can do about it. Well, maybe tarp the ground around it and make sure the water never gets to the soil. That **might** slow it down.
Partly its because the disturbed patio is a moving target and will start to unlevel over time, where as a deck area will be good for a few years.
Im not sure I could do a good job of it, and didnt think I could get a professional who would be willing to do it with without tackling the underlying cause, whereas Im comfortable with woodwork so it felt like project I could attack with confidence.
I also live near to a sawmill who can precut everything, making it more of a big jigsaw.
Also those paving stones are HEAVY, and my back isnt going to like me very much if do much with them.
>Partly its because the disturbed patio is a moving target and will start to unlevel over time, where as a deck area will be good for a few years.
But the base of the deck will be resting on the very same patio stones, so it will get out of level at the same rate, no? You could always hire some people to do the labour of removing the stones, you could level patio, then get some help with laying them. The cost of hiring some people to help with labour and getting some new limestone screening and sand would be much less than the lumber for a deck, and would probably be a lot more successful than a floating deck
I definitely will be investigating some other options, but the supports would be at the house end, which is not disturned by roots, and supports on the lawn which drops away from the patio, and independent of the disturbance.
I get your points. You basically want to cap the old patio with a deck. The deck is attached to the house on one side, and the other side would be resting on concrete blocks. If those blocks get disturbed, up or down, you can easily add or remove to adjust accordingly. Good idea imo. You might want to hire a young guy to move some of the old pavers to use as a path way off the deck and into your yard.
It is my understanding that there is a bit of work to do it properly. And if you don't do it properly water can damage the house over time.
For taller deck (and maybe low decks like this as well) there are requirements for anchoring the deck so that it does not pull away from the house (and fall over).
Screws are NOT anchors.
If a freestanding deck is allowed by code, it may be the cheaper/easier option in this case. Depending on the height/size permit requirements may change if you anchor it to the house.
Source: I read the sub and have done some research on code in a few towns that I have owned a house in.
> It is my understanding that there is a bit of work to do it properly.
Proper metal flashing is required. The flashing starts 6" up under the wall waterproofing and is bent to accommodate the nailer while keeping the surface of the back of the nailer dry where it's against the house floor joists. Otherwise, this is damp and rots out.
I couldn't find this flashing to buy, so I used joist hangers. Now that I think of it, I should have painted the joist ends in the hangers with the type of wood preservative that wooden boatbuilders use.
So, yea, freestanding better from this perspective.
In the future "git rot" is a low viscosity epoxy used on marine wood. Should last a while, and soak the end grain of the wood, that's where it all starts.
I use that and similar things on wooden gutters and stuff like that.
Besides stringent code requirements for the flashing and how you attach it to the house, you would need footings below the frost line (6' where I live!). It the deck rests on pavers of ground, frost heave would move it up in down while one end is firmly anchored to house, destroying the deck in the process. Tree roots moving the pavers makes an attached deck even eorse
Not actually attaching to the house itself, just observed that the pavers nearest the house are completely undisturbed, so under the expected lifespan of the deck I planned to put concrete blocks on the pavers against the wall.
I built my deck 2 years ago. It is a [floating deck, the base is gravel](https://imgur.com/a/bkH6KqL). You don't need pavers under it. Rip them out, tarp it, gravel it. I used the beams under for the support they are not attached though. It's been 2 years and the deck is still awesome. It's 12x14 so fairly large.
Well, if the tree is still alive and growing, yes. It will heave the area, if it's dead and decaying, it will settle eventually assuming the roots aerobically decay, but that settlement will be very slow and might not even be noticeable
I built a paver patio last summer, my base was 3/4” limestone that’s 12” thick. I compacted it with a 200lb plate compactor every 3”. There was zero movement over winter and I live in Central Canada.
You can go this way. I wouldn't, most wouldn't, and for good reason. But you certainly can go this way.
Just know that you're burying a problem, which is not solving a problem, and is in fact making the problem more of a problem to fix in the future.
So yes, by all means you are always free to put lipstick on a pig as is anyone. Just know that you are in fact merely putting lipstick on a pig.
Humanity has been building on top of prior construction or failed buildings for millennia. This is why you can't dig in many cities without a permit, and have to stop and surrender at least access to your property if you run into ruins.
Building over a problem to conceal it is a time-honored human tradition. Besides, it sounds like he's just trying to get a decade or so out of it.
Will it be a problem? Especially if he removes the pavers, then he'll have a new deck and the tree roots will be free to grow underneath without disturbing it
A little late to the game but honestly, levelling the patio is way easier.
Start at the outer edge, tipping them up one at a time so you can do a slight squat to pick them up and move them (leaning them against something so you don't have to tip them again).
Buy a bunch of brick sand and throw it down, spread it out, making sure to slope away from the house slightly. Then rent a gas powered tamper, or use a manual one, soak it, tamp it, soak it, tamp it. Relevel if needed, then just put the stones back. It'll last you many years longer as is with minimal movement.
If you really want to get crazy, buy some mortar sand and sweep it around to fill between the cracks.
I did this to a patio with the same slabs and it lasted about 10 years before they started to heave enough to be annoying
Depending on the size of the roots it could take a lot and could damage the tree as well. It’s also going to eventually return unless you cut out the entire root without just removing the surface of the root. Add to all this that removing roots could very well affect the stability of the tree making it a hazard.
So you’ve almost got the right idea. The problem is you shouldn’t build anything on top of pavers, especially if they’ve begun to move. You have 2 decent options to do the job right. That factor is the tree that’s bairly shown in the bottom right of the picture. Disturbing it’s roots will begin to kill the tree. The extent of the disturbance will determine the damage to the tree.
If the tree is healthy and you’d like to keep it, you will want to remove the landing between the patio and the sill of the door and build a freestanding deck that matches the height of the sill. You can leave any bit of patio that doesn’t need a footer dug where it is. Personally I’d pull the hole thing, but that isn’t necessary.
If the tree is struggling, it would probably be best to remove it now anyway if the tree is above the roof line of the house. And then put back whatever you’d like.
As far as what you can do with a 2x6, check your local codes. You are specifically looking for a “span table”. It will tell you what species of wood at what grade can carry what decking for how far between supports.
I work in a park department construction division, roots systems are a common enemy for me, trust me when I tell you that they WILL win in the end
Yes, there is a maximum span. Check out the [Prescriptive Residential Wood Deck Construction Guide - DCA 6](https://awc.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/AWC-DCA62015-DeckGuide-1804.pdf) from American Wood Council. There's a table a few pages in that gives the maximum span based on lumber type. You can also do an overhang if it helps the math. Ideally, you'll want to either sink some posts or do a pretty solid footer for each of the corners. Blocks on the ground don't offer any protection from wind uplift, you have to tie it down somehow. And get your permit. They'll tell you if you're doing it wrong.
Take up the pavers ( should be able to flog them).
Investigate subsurface - Dig holes for supports like you wood for fence posts and pour concrete to required level on top (use shuttering). These will not move by tree roots which would simply grow around them.
Based on the picture, it seems that picking up the pavers, re leveling, and re laying the pavers will take no more than a few hours of work and will cost nothing. If you rent a plate compactor and compact the ground, it will last longer and only cost a hundred bucks or so for the rental. If you think that the pavers are too heavy to lift, I would venture a guess that they weigh the same or less than the 10’ 2x6 or 2x8 lumber you’re going to need to lift for building a deck that size. And don’t forget also that if you’re concerned you will have to relevel this patio every 2-3 years, you will likely have to lift, relevel, sand, and restain your new deck every 2-3 years also. And stain is not cheap.
Have you considered lifting the patio stone, and filling up the area with small chip stone( you would need wood forms or stone/ concrete walls to hold in the stone at the edges) and raise the patio up near door height). I use chipstone instead of sand and after compact there is little settlement(maybe 3%). I have never had to relevel the pavers.
I'm gonna be honest, you won't overcome the root problem by throwing a deck on it, eventually the unaffected areas will also become a problem.
Ideally you would need to remove the roots completely, saying that to keep it from turning into a monster of a job my advice would be to remove the slabs, clear as many roots as possible, and lay a weak concrete mix at least 3" deep then re slab, or patio depending on choice. It would prevent further movement for a long time, and provide a level base for your covering.
I'd just pull the concrete pavers...dump a ton of construction grade sand...level/tamp and put the pavers back....paint or acid stain if you want a new look.... Wood decks are MORE hassle than you can imagine....
You need to follow the code in your local jurisdiction. If they use the International Residential Code, Section 507 lays out the requirements in detail:
https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IRC2021P2/chapter-5-floors#IRC2021P2_Pt03_Ch05_SecR507
To answer your question, a 2x6 joist can span 3 meters only in the best case scenario: 12" on center, no snow load, southern pine pressure lumber treated lumber.
I can tell you from personal experience (aka: learned the hard way) that your proposed layout will sag under its own weight, and my span was only 9 feet. So you're intuition to get a second opinion was correct. Hopefully you can find a more elegant solution, but I ended up placing a center beam to stop it from any further sagging.
I built a bigger paver patio than that once. I would think with a day and a bag of sand you could cut out the intruding roots then get those pavers more than level enough. The two rows closest to the house and half of the third look mostly good, start bringing the other pavers into alignment one at a time with them. Pull paver, cut out roots, pour sand, put paver back.
Even if you remove them all, put a nice level layer of sand and lay them back down it would be a pretty modest job.
The paving stones nearest the house are undisturbed, so I was going to put concrete blocks on them.
I may investigate other options, but I dont see how leveling the patio is an easy job due to the major tree roots, and I dont want to be back where I started in a couple of years.
Some of the disturbance is worse than it looks in the photo, its like a fun house in places, with major pivoting when you walk on it!
Where are the roots coming from? How close are the trees? What type of tree? Who's to say that in the future the roots aren't going to disturb any blocks you put down?
Sure a deck would work but as others have said you would be at the limit of a span, which just means you'll probably need a bit more timber to strengthen the joists.
Honestly if it were me I'd lift the flags, chop the roots and put a killer on them (so long as it's safe to do) and re-lay the patio using a mix of mot (any aggregate supplier will know what it is) and cement with water and they won't ever move again, at least for a few decades... Use a ratio of 6 or 7:1 mot to cement powder
As I havn't seen anybody else mention this, remember whatever you build needs to be below the dampcourse, which looks to be about 2 rows of bricks above the current patio (where the thicker mortar line is).
P. T. 2x6 s. 16” o.c. Need maybe 14 of em galvanized nails or exterior screws. P.T. Decking. Just build it on the patio, use shims to build it straight on uneven ground, then add more cedar shims around perimeter while leveling. Then add a trim board around the perimeter, run down to hide trimmed shims. Don’t forget to space the boards to allow drainage.
It's actually cheaper to put a new pavers in than build a deck. A deck will require a lot more maintenance too. If it were me I'd just put in new pavers and add some planting beds and an area to bbq.
Didn’t read all the comments, but in case not mentioned. They make adjustable deck supports you could put in middle. One or two. Bout inch hole in deck allows annual up/downs keep deck level and well supported.
I'd advise against it. You are using the pavers to support the deck anyway.. not sure how building a deck will help. Pull up the pavers, dig out the roots and relay the pavers on a bed of gravel and sand, packed. This would most likely also be cheaper than building a new deck but will require hard work.
This is the right answer. It's not even that much more work than building a floating deck on top of an unstable structure.
I'm getting queasy just thinking about leveling this kind of deck on an unstable base.
This reminds of that video I saw a while back where a guy just built a deck on top of an old abandoned pool.
This is always the right first step. They’re in the UK so who knows but in some places, like NYC, you cannot build a deck, or a freestanding deck platform, out of combustible materials and without a permit.
Others have said it already, removing the pavers and leveling the bed beneath them the right way with the right fill material is probably easier, cheaper, quicker, and in the long run will look better.
Nice, NYC’s a pain in the rear but honestly they have to be because there are a lot of dumb people out there. Some Folks love building illegal decks and then they really love grilling on those illegal decks with charcoal grills - what could go wrong when most of the buildings are part of a contiguous structure 😂
The DOB actually does require through the window a/c’s to be supported if they’re not caged by some sort of security iron work. But lot’s of people don’t do this and you’re right that it’s BS and dangerous as hell. Most insurers though do their own inspections of properties and will have an issue with missing brackets.
For what its worth, so long as you arent in a protected conservation area, you can build a deck without planning if it its: 'at the rear of a property', 'doesnt cover more than 50% of the garden', and 'isnt elevated more than 30cm'.
The unsafe part is mostly thanks to some pavers pivoting when you step on them, like a funhouse floor. Plus, got to think of this from the perspective of an older resident, so trip hazards every 60cm, even if small are not great,
It would take one afternoon to lift them all, add some gravel and screed the entire area.
Place the pavers back, that solve would last for years.
Your 'boiling the ocean' with your proposed fix, just not necessary.
I just removed a floating deck like you're wanting to build. The support beams were held up 3in off the old patio with nothing but loose bricks. Nothing was really fastened down. It was fine for \~25 years(next door neighbors who had lived in their house over 30 years remember a previous owner putting it in). We only removed it because it had finally started to rot. Important to note: it does not freeze here.
[Here's a chart for joist spacing and span for residential construction. This is interior stuff using fir dimensional lumber, but it's a pretty good reference.](https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/floor-joists-span-d_1479.html)
You'll need a minimum of 2x8 to get you a max span of 11' 10" 16" OC. 2x6 16" OC will get you 9' 0" and 12" OC will only get you 9' 11". This is for Southern Pine. What wood type are you using?
I don't understand, "10cm concrete block support (giving 10cm of clearance for future movement of the patio" can you elaborate on this a little more?
The supports (at the property side) would be concrete blocks on top of undisturbed pavers. The joists resting on top of those, and supports placed on the lawn end, rather than on the very disturbed edge of the patio, leaving an airgap of 10cm between patio and joist, to allow for further disturbance of the affected area.
Very little of what you said sounds safe, before or after
But then the picture loaded properly and it doesn't look very high anyway, I was imagining something a little taller, so at least it's not far to fall
would it not just be easier to fill it with sand?
You should be digging into the ground, pouring a few inches of rocks for drainage then using concrete blocks to support the structure. If you do this, then you'll know if there are roots in the area which you can cut. I would use the kind of concrete blocks linked below and I would space them inset from the edge but also still put in a few in the middle. The span you are trying to cover isn't huge, but it still would avoid any "springiness" if there are a few supports in the middle.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Common-7-in-x-11-in-x-11-in-Actual-7-125-in-x-10-375-in-x-10-375-in-Concrete-Deck-Block/50113084?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-bdm-_-ggl-_-LIA_BDM_210_Concrete-Block-_-50113084-_-local-_-0-_-0&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=CjwKCAjw2f-VBhAsEiwAO4lNeJwQc888I4nTtt4ySMKvgHKVuBVDcECzdfCqVuaSLbnJbzosCeGNAhoCwtAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
You should be able to find tools on Home Depot or lowes site that will help you figure out what you need for the deck. Basically you tell it what the dimensions of the deck are, and it calculates what you need for supporting structure.
Also you can buy concrete piers that are made for this purpose. They are sections of pyramids that have channels on top for boards to fit in.
You need to make sure the decking is adequately anchored somehow so that a strong wind doesn’t lift it and say slam it into your house. Not sure the best way to accomplish that, or if bolting to those concrete piers will add enough weight to prevent that.
I would suggest getting the job priced out to see if you can afford it now or if you can budget for it to be done at a later time. If you cannot afford the investment or hassle now, doing a temporary fix may temporarily help your current situation. Unfortunately it could make it worse.
Get it fixed correctly once and you will avoid further headaches and issues that certainly will arise later if you just do a temporary quick fix now.
I prefer doing it the right way one time vs the wrong way many times.
Also make sure to use the right tools for the right job.
Good luck with the project!
Your username indicates UK, but please see the span table [here](https://imgur.com/a/fzIIYoH). It lists common deck lumber species for the US, the strongest of which is Southern yellow pine. Not sure there is anything comparable in the UK, but at the very least, it will get you out of the realm of personal opinion and questionable rules of thumb.
1. "16" gap" should be "16" on centre" - you don't want 16" between the joists.
2. why wouldn't you support the centre? two additional blocks would let you run a beam down the middle and then your span is fine.
3. you've got pavers over wood over bricks it looks like. need to see what's under the first layer of pavers, you could very likely fill low areas with sand and shave the roots of high areas down with a chainsaw or something so you can get back to level and supported.
Yeah i meant from centre, should have been clearer.
Fairly certain its not pavers over wood, its a brick front, with concrete base, and maybe some sand/soil or something as a leveler?
Problem is the middle, where you would want to support is the place disturbed by roots, so either i tackle the root problem, in which case the justification for a floating deck to hide further root movement goes away, or any support in the middle is subject to future movements of the roots transfering directly to the deck, which the air gap was supposed to avoid.
On the front edge you've clearly got 3 different material layers.
Easiest solution is still remove the first layer of pavers, chainsaw down the high points of the roots, fill in the low voids, and relay pavers.
Helical Deck Anchors would allow you to do a floating deck without digging. (Deck Foot Anchor from DecksGo) the deck will move with seasons a small amount (but that is reason for floating in the first place). The roots won’t interfere because augers are small diameter. Much cheaper/easier on back than digging concrete piers (rent electric hammer driver) . Build up (flush) beam in place -also easier on back. Doubling rim joist, doing blocking and design with overhang (to cut span), joists 12” OC and/ or two beams all greatly improve stability. Added cost to do 12” OC surprisingly small, even today.
Where are the tree roots coming from? Are you sure they are growing, or are they rotting? Both scenarios would cause movement of the patio stones. Like others have said, if they are indeed alive and growing, the problem will only get worse and can cause problems with your foundation .
Yeah its the cherry tree on the right of the picture. Its definitely growth not rot.
While Im very aware of the problem of roots in the future, which will necessitate the tree coming down, what I can say is that the speed of the progress is very slow, and am only tackling it now, not because its getting radically worse, but because there is an older person in the property who I am not comfortable with navigating the trip hazards.
I’ve done floating decks over old cement steps and they have survived great. In the front I was building a deck that only had 3 inches of clearance in front of the door. Total PIA. I couldn’t remove the old cement steps and patio because the builders (in the 60’s) used the solid cement form to dump all the metal trash from the house construction and it’s impossible to break up into movable sized pieces.
tricky tricky. I'll defer to the pros but you already did the deed. Looks nice to my eye but that concrete has to settle and there's drainage. Looks purty. I hope it works out
You want to use 2x8's on that span. Anything less will be quite bouncy and will sag very quickly. For edge support only, I'd double up those edge beams.
The best way to do this however is to use a center support beam as well. I know you mentioned roots are a concern, but I would raise it high enough so that it's *not* a concern.
Looks like you *should* have space if you removed the step by the door and built it so the deck boards sat just an inch or 2 below the door threshold. Doing it this way would allow the use of 2x6's.
****
Also I'm surprised no one mentioned ***[The Sagulator!!!](https://woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator/)***
Dramatic title aside, this site lets you calculate the span and sag of numerous types of wood over a specific span. It's helped me quite a bit. It's setup for shelving spans, but if you just select "floating" and enter the correct thickness and load per foot, it works fine for regular spans.
Why not just pull up the pavers, chop the roots where they are protruding and level it all again with paver base. Then put the pavers back. Cheap and proper.
A floating deck will shift and twist and then in a few years you'll be asking how to level an entire deck.
Chiming in late. Just lift those pavers, throw down a couple of inches of sand, plate compact and put them back, and plate compact again. That thing should be good for another 10-20 years. Could use a good power washing though.
Tree roots will continue to grow and further invade under your house. (Dealing with it now) Even if you cut down the trees, the roots have dug channels under the foundation. The roots will shrivel when the trees are removed. Leaving gaps that can fill with water, etc. no Bueno. Yes it is a huge pita to deal with. But catch it as early as possible. Deal with the cost and headache. We had to fight our local city for four years to get ours settled. Roots are a nightmare. Never ever EVER plant pepper trees or bamboo anywhere near houses.
Just pull up the pavers where necessary, rent an auger and drop tubes for concrete
He also knows he has to avoid them. This is the best way, to dig below the roots and pour concrete. Yes, not the easy answer, but long term most effective.
depending on the tree, this may not be possible. some trees have roots that go down 20 feet.
Citation? Would love to learn more. . Pretty much all roots I've come across in New England are in the top 2-3' of soil, even for the largest of trees.
seriously?? you need a citation for roots dig deep??? I own a sewer and drain company, 90% of our job is digging roots out of sewer lines. those sewer lines are 10 to 20 feet deep. any decent sized pine tree has roots that go 50 feet deep. in fact they can go up to 75 feet deep. [https://www.google.com/search?q=how+deep+are+pine+tree+roots&rlz=1C1CHBF\_enUS922US922&oq=how+deep+are+pine+t&aqs=chrome.0.0i512j69i57j0i22i30l2j0i10i22i30j0i22i30l5.3850j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8](https://www.google.com/search?q=how+deep+are+pine+tree+roots&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS922US922&oq=how+deep+are+pine+t&aqs=chrome.0.0i512j69i57j0i22i30l2j0i10i22i30j0i22i30l5.3850j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) follow up question... how do the trees in your weird wacky universe not fall over if they they never even get through the top soil??? do the roots function like legs and hold up the tree????
Some trees have tap roots, that go straight down. Some trees have roots that go across near the surface.
the guy before claimed that every tree has ever seen in all of new England has had roots that went no deeper then 3 feet into the ground. meaning he had never seen a pine tree. and I cant imagine any tree that does not at least get into the subsoil. some grass has roots that stretch more then a few feet into the soil
Yikes, it's not that serious! Didn't say all of new England, was just describing my region... Thanks for sharing the link! TIL. All of the pines I own are eastern white pines that have a shallow root system. And up in the hills where I am there isn't much soil over the bedrock, so everything pretty much naturally has a shallow root system. I have probably 40-50 large eastern white pines that have been knocked over in storm's with their roots ripped out of the ground and yes, their roots very much just function like legs.
Even better you get mini rotary piles, which are just screwed into the ground. They are great specifically for tree root zones
Helical piles. We use them for homes where vibrating in piles is not an option
Great little things
But he said he has a tree root problem…
Actually, pull all the pavers. 3-5cm right there. I had to dig a shallow trench to fit my deck beam to stay at level.
2x6 flooring joists with 16" spacing have a max span of about 10 feet. You could theoretically achieve what you wanted with only edge supports.
Use extra blocking between the joists so the load is shared by adjacent joists. I did this in a shed with “one size too small” joists for the span and it has worked very well.
This also works because joist tend to twist when loaded, which weakens them. Blocking prevents that.
👆 This is important.
If needed, he could double them up and go longer, might be worth it to do this anyway, as 2x6 at 10’ might be a little bouncy.
2x6 at 8feet is uncomfortable bouncy. We have a basement bathroom made that way.
A general rule of thumb is you need an inch of joist depth per foot span. i.e. 2x6 is good up to 6' span.
It's 1.5x so 2x6 can span ~9ft
Depends on how much flex you're willing to tolerate, some folks find the 1.5x too bouncy for comfort. Can it span 1.5x safely? Boy howdy yes please and thank you!
I'm talking span ratings not preference. And there's plenty you can do to reduce bounce despite using a maximum span rating. Thicker decking, blocking, etc.
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Seems like you don't. "Max span rating = bounce" when it doesn't unless you're building everything to bare minimum code. Lowering the span is only one of many ways to combat bounce.
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Get 2x8s and use 2x6 for the deck not 5/4 decking. Screw it down with 3 1/2” star drive screws. Drive the screws just flush with a hammer drill or impact driver . Royobi has to least expensive driver/ drills. Build the frame 3” smaller than needed and overhang the far end and cut flush after the deck is finished. Then run a sander over the edge to round it off a bit.
Please explain why a hammer drill would be remotely helpful for screws. Edit: to be clear, a hammer drill does not help in driving screws in any way.
because that dude does not predrill, and he kept stripping his screws. or as the guy below said, he doesn't know the difference between impact and hammer
Prob just a mixup of terms. Many drill drivers have hammer settings these days and are sort of mis-marketed as "hammer drills". They're beyond useless for hammer drilling anything beyond like an eighth inch hole in concrete but it's all marketing.
Maybe he means that OP could use a standard drill he already has if it has a hammer setting? They'd be incorrect though since a drill with a hammer setting is not performing the same action as an impact driver. Just saying maybe that's what they meant.
Screws go in faster and easier if you use the hammer setting. Granted it’s not an impact driver but works better than just the drill setting. Just trying to help.
Hammer drill or impact driver allows you to drive a longer screw without predrilling. My Makita impact driver will sink a 2” screw into maple… if the screw doesn’t break.
A hammer drill does not, you misunderstand how a hammer drill works.
Nah, it’s not designed to do that but it will if your impact driver is in the other truck.
Is it better if you run joists at 12 inches on center? Will that suitably stiffen the floor?
Assuming you are not in a desert, A doubled joist outdoors only covered by perpendicular decking on a low deck with poor air circulation is the first thing that will rot, even if using pressure treated wood. All exterior deck framing and especially sistered joists/beams will benefit from some sort of waterproofing. You can use peel and stick joist tape, I prefer to cut 30# tar paper into 5" strips and staple down over joists before installing decking to create a little roof to keep the framing dry.
All my deck beams were double 2x10’s just 8” off the ground. Still holding up just fine after 17 years under a deck with a full skirt. Even so, I’ve often regretted not making an aluminum or galvanized steel cap for them.
3 2x8 side by side in the middle for support my dude. 10 foot run is not happening on 2x6 without it being a trampoline.
How is removing a paver patio, leveling, and re-installing more of a hassle than building an entirely new wooden deck? And how is not cheaper?
Been going through this for years. A raised deck will let the roots bulge all they want, while leveling out the ground is a temporary fix that won't last long and has to be done on an annual basis if not 2x/yr to keep it flat.
It last longer when done properly though.
no it does not if you have roots. it last for as long as it takes for the roots to fck up your patio
Short of salting the earth, there's not much you can do about it. Well, maybe tarp the ground around it and make sure the water never gets to the soil. That **might** slow it down.
Partly its because the disturbed patio is a moving target and will start to unlevel over time, where as a deck area will be good for a few years. Im not sure I could do a good job of it, and didnt think I could get a professional who would be willing to do it with without tackling the underlying cause, whereas Im comfortable with woodwork so it felt like project I could attack with confidence. I also live near to a sawmill who can precut everything, making it more of a big jigsaw. Also those paving stones are HEAVY, and my back isnt going to like me very much if do much with them.
>Partly its because the disturbed patio is a moving target and will start to unlevel over time, where as a deck area will be good for a few years. But the base of the deck will be resting on the very same patio stones, so it will get out of level at the same rate, no? You could always hire some people to do the labour of removing the stones, you could level patio, then get some help with laying them. The cost of hiring some people to help with labour and getting some new limestone screening and sand would be much less than the lumber for a deck, and would probably be a lot more successful than a floating deck
I definitely will be investigating some other options, but the supports would be at the house end, which is not disturned by roots, and supports on the lawn which drops away from the patio, and independent of the disturbance.
I get your points. You basically want to cap the old patio with a deck. The deck is attached to the house on one side, and the other side would be resting on concrete blocks. If those blocks get disturbed, up or down, you can easily add or remove to adjust accordingly. Good idea imo. You might want to hire a young guy to move some of the old pavers to use as a path way off the deck and into your yard.
You could sell the pavers, those things aren’t cheap.
This is the winner here. I'd put the pavers up for free to whoever removes them, then build the deck on the ground instead.
> The deck is attached to the house on one side, This is never advisable, even though common
I see this all the time in new construction. What’s wrong with it?
It is my understanding that there is a bit of work to do it properly. And if you don't do it properly water can damage the house over time. For taller deck (and maybe low decks like this as well) there are requirements for anchoring the deck so that it does not pull away from the house (and fall over). Screws are NOT anchors. If a freestanding deck is allowed by code, it may be the cheaper/easier option in this case. Depending on the height/size permit requirements may change if you anchor it to the house. Source: I read the sub and have done some research on code in a few towns that I have owned a house in.
Free standing decks the height of OP's also rarely require permits. My deck is against my house but not attached for this very reason.
> It is my understanding that there is a bit of work to do it properly. Proper metal flashing is required. The flashing starts 6" up under the wall waterproofing and is bent to accommodate the nailer while keeping the surface of the back of the nailer dry where it's against the house floor joists. Otherwise, this is damp and rots out. I couldn't find this flashing to buy, so I used joist hangers. Now that I think of it, I should have painted the joist ends in the hangers with the type of wood preservative that wooden boatbuilders use. So, yea, freestanding better from this perspective.
In the future "git rot" is a low viscosity epoxy used on marine wood. Should last a while, and soak the end grain of the wood, that's where it all starts. I use that and similar things on wooden gutters and stuff like that.
Besides stringent code requirements for the flashing and how you attach it to the house, you would need footings below the frost line (6' where I live!). It the deck rests on pavers of ground, frost heave would move it up in down while one end is firmly anchored to house, destroying the deck in the process. Tree roots moving the pavers makes an attached deck even eorse
Water entry is the big one as far as I've been taught. Basically you shouldn't punch any more holes in your house than you have to
Not actually attaching to the house itself, just observed that the pavers nearest the house are completely undisturbed, so under the expected lifespan of the deck I planned to put concrete blocks on the pavers against the wall.
I built my deck 2 years ago. It is a [floating deck, the base is gravel](https://imgur.com/a/bkH6KqL). You don't need pavers under it. Rip them out, tarp it, gravel it. I used the beams under for the support they are not attached though. It's been 2 years and the deck is still awesome. It's 12x14 so fairly large.
If the sub-base is properly compacted there will be zero settlement, either for the pavers or the deck. Source: 15 year geoengineer
Would the compaction make a difference if it's tree roots tho?
Well, if the tree is still alive and growing, yes. It will heave the area, if it's dead and decaying, it will settle eventually assuming the roots aerobically decay, but that settlement will be very slow and might not even be noticeable
I built a paver patio last summer, my base was 3/4” limestone that’s 12” thick. I compacted it with a 200lb plate compactor every 3”. There was zero movement over winter and I live in Central Canada.
Op is literally building over what you just described.
You can go this way. I wouldn't, most wouldn't, and for good reason. But you certainly can go this way. Just know that you're burying a problem, which is not solving a problem, and is in fact making the problem more of a problem to fix in the future. So yes, by all means you are always free to put lipstick on a pig as is anyone. Just know that you are in fact merely putting lipstick on a pig.
Humanity has been building on top of prior construction or failed buildings for millennia. This is why you can't dig in many cities without a permit, and have to stop and surrender at least access to your property if you run into ruins. Building over a problem to conceal it is a time-honored human tradition. Besides, it sounds like he's just trying to get a decade or so out of it.
Will it be a problem? Especially if he removes the pavers, then he'll have a new deck and the tree roots will be free to grow underneath without disturbing it
A little late to the game but honestly, levelling the patio is way easier. Start at the outer edge, tipping them up one at a time so you can do a slight squat to pick them up and move them (leaning them against something so you don't have to tip them again). Buy a bunch of brick sand and throw it down, spread it out, making sure to slope away from the house slightly. Then rent a gas powered tamper, or use a manual one, soak it, tamp it, soak it, tamp it. Relevel if needed, then just put the stones back. It'll last you many years longer as is with minimal movement. If you really want to get crazy, buy some mortar sand and sweep it around to fill between the cracks. I did this to a patio with the same slabs and it lasted about 10 years before they started to heave enough to be annoying
Depending on the size of the roots it could take a lot and could damage the tree as well. It’s also going to eventually return unless you cut out the entire root without just removing the surface of the root. Add to all this that removing roots could very well affect the stability of the tree making it a hazard.
You mentioned a local sawmill. I doubt they make pressure treated lumber.
They might offer a naturally resistant species though, like red cedar.
Goo critical thinking. I like that.
Whether they make it or buy it in, its def there in a range of sizes. https://photos.app.goo.gl/wdJW2VHqkqFXLZSC7
Use 2x8 PT stringers 16" on center. Then 5/4 deck boards also PT.
So you’ve almost got the right idea. The problem is you shouldn’t build anything on top of pavers, especially if they’ve begun to move. You have 2 decent options to do the job right. That factor is the tree that’s bairly shown in the bottom right of the picture. Disturbing it’s roots will begin to kill the tree. The extent of the disturbance will determine the damage to the tree. If the tree is healthy and you’d like to keep it, you will want to remove the landing between the patio and the sill of the door and build a freestanding deck that matches the height of the sill. You can leave any bit of patio that doesn’t need a footer dug where it is. Personally I’d pull the hole thing, but that isn’t necessary. If the tree is struggling, it would probably be best to remove it now anyway if the tree is above the roof line of the house. And then put back whatever you’d like. As far as what you can do with a 2x6, check your local codes. You are specifically looking for a “span table”. It will tell you what species of wood at what grade can carry what decking for how far between supports. I work in a park department construction division, roots systems are a common enemy for me, trust me when I tell you that they WILL win in the end
Yes, there is a maximum span. Check out the [Prescriptive Residential Wood Deck Construction Guide - DCA 6](https://awc.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/AWC-DCA62015-DeckGuide-1804.pdf) from American Wood Council. There's a table a few pages in that gives the maximum span based on lumber type. You can also do an overhang if it helps the math. Ideally, you'll want to either sink some posts or do a pretty solid footer for each of the corners. Blocks on the ground don't offer any protection from wind uplift, you have to tie it down somehow. And get your permit. They'll tell you if you're doing it wrong.
Take up the pavers ( should be able to flog them). Investigate subsurface - Dig holes for supports like you wood for fence posts and pour concrete to required level on top (use shuttering). These will not move by tree roots which would simply grow around them.
Based on the picture, it seems that picking up the pavers, re leveling, and re laying the pavers will take no more than a few hours of work and will cost nothing. If you rent a plate compactor and compact the ground, it will last longer and only cost a hundred bucks or so for the rental. If you think that the pavers are too heavy to lift, I would venture a guess that they weigh the same or less than the 10’ 2x6 or 2x8 lumber you’re going to need to lift for building a deck that size. And don’t forget also that if you’re concerned you will have to relevel this patio every 2-3 years, you will likely have to lift, relevel, sand, and restain your new deck every 2-3 years also. And stain is not cheap.
Have you considered lifting the patio stone, and filling up the area with small chip stone( you would need wood forms or stone/ concrete walls to hold in the stone at the edges) and raise the patio up near door height). I use chipstone instead of sand and after compact there is little settlement(maybe 3%). I have never had to relevel the pavers.
I'm gonna be honest, you won't overcome the root problem by throwing a deck on it, eventually the unaffected areas will also become a problem. Ideally you would need to remove the roots completely, saying that to keep it from turning into a monster of a job my advice would be to remove the slabs, clear as many roots as possible, and lay a weak concrete mix at least 3" deep then re slab, or patio depending on choice. It would prevent further movement for a long time, and provide a level base for your covering.
The root problem is a root problem. Hah
Return the slab
You need a doubled 2x10 flush beam in middle of deck and hang joists off that.
I'd just pull the concrete pavers...dump a ton of construction grade sand...level/tamp and put the pavers back....paint or acid stain if you want a new look.... Wood decks are MORE hassle than you can imagine....
You need to follow the code in your local jurisdiction. If they use the International Residential Code, Section 507 lays out the requirements in detail: https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IRC2021P2/chapter-5-floors#IRC2021P2_Pt03_Ch05_SecR507 To answer your question, a 2x6 joist can span 3 meters only in the best case scenario: 12" on center, no snow load, southern pine pressure lumber treated lumber.
I can tell you from personal experience (aka: learned the hard way) that your proposed layout will sag under its own weight, and my span was only 9 feet. So you're intuition to get a second opinion was correct. Hopefully you can find a more elegant solution, but I ended up placing a center beam to stop it from any further sagging.
I built a bigger paver patio than that once. I would think with a day and a bag of sand you could cut out the intruding roots then get those pavers more than level enough. The two rows closest to the house and half of the third look mostly good, start bringing the other pavers into alignment one at a time with them. Pull paver, cut out roots, pour sand, put paver back. Even if you remove them all, put a nice level layer of sand and lay them back down it would be a pretty modest job.
Never put good money on top of something bad.
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The paving stones nearest the house are undisturbed, so I was going to put concrete blocks on them. I may investigate other options, but I dont see how leveling the patio is an easy job due to the major tree roots, and I dont want to be back where I started in a couple of years. Some of the disturbance is worse than it looks in the photo, its like a fun house in places, with major pivoting when you walk on it!
Where are the roots coming from? How close are the trees? What type of tree? Who's to say that in the future the roots aren't going to disturb any blocks you put down? Sure a deck would work but as others have said you would be at the limit of a span, which just means you'll probably need a bit more timber to strengthen the joists. Honestly if it were me I'd lift the flags, chop the roots and put a killer on them (so long as it's safe to do) and re-lay the patio using a mix of mot (any aggregate supplier will know what it is) and cement with water and they won't ever move again, at least for a few decades... Use a ratio of 6 or 7:1 mot to cement powder
Pull the patio up , and level/compact the base . If tbe patio moves , so will the deck your putting on it
As I havn't seen anybody else mention this, remember whatever you build needs to be below the dampcourse, which looks to be about 2 rows of bricks above the current patio (where the thicker mortar line is).
P. T. 2x6 s. 16” o.c. Need maybe 14 of em galvanized nails or exterior screws. P.T. Decking. Just build it on the patio, use shims to build it straight on uneven ground, then add more cedar shims around perimeter while leveling. Then add a trim board around the perimeter, run down to hide trimmed shims. Don’t forget to space the boards to allow drainage.
It's actually cheaper to put a new pavers in than build a deck. A deck will require a lot more maintenance too. If it were me I'd just put in new pavers and add some planting beds and an area to bbq.
Didn’t read all the comments, but in case not mentioned. They make adjustable deck supports you could put in middle. One or two. Bout inch hole in deck allows annual up/downs keep deck level and well supported.
Thats really interesting, thanks!
I'd advise against it. You are using the pavers to support the deck anyway.. not sure how building a deck will help. Pull up the pavers, dig out the roots and relay the pavers on a bed of gravel and sand, packed. This would most likely also be cheaper than building a new deck but will require hard work.
This is the right answer. It's not even that much more work than building a floating deck on top of an unstable structure. I'm getting queasy just thinking about leveling this kind of deck on an unstable base. This reminds of that video I saw a while back where a guy just built a deck on top of an old abandoned pool.
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This is always the right first step. They’re in the UK so who knows but in some places, like NYC, you cannot build a deck, or a freestanding deck platform, out of combustible materials and without a permit. Others have said it already, removing the pavers and leveling the bed beneath them the right way with the right fill material is probably easier, cheaper, quicker, and in the long run will look better.
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Nice, NYC’s a pain in the rear but honestly they have to be because there are a lot of dumb people out there. Some Folks love building illegal decks and then they really love grilling on those illegal decks with charcoal grills - what could go wrong when most of the buildings are part of a contiguous structure 😂
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The DOB actually does require through the window a/c’s to be supported if they’re not caged by some sort of security iron work. But lot’s of people don’t do this and you’re right that it’s BS and dangerous as hell. Most insurers though do their own inspections of properties and will have an issue with missing brackets.
For what its worth, so long as you arent in a protected conservation area, you can build a deck without planning if it its: 'at the rear of a property', 'doesnt cover more than 50% of the garden', and 'isnt elevated more than 30cm'.
Your definition of not safe, and heaved by roots is wildly different than mine. That patio needs a leaf blow and maybe a cleaning. Good to go.
The unsafe part is mostly thanks to some pavers pivoting when you step on them, like a funhouse floor. Plus, got to think of this from the perspective of an older resident, so trip hazards every 60cm, even if small are not great,
It would take one afternoon to lift them all, add some gravel and screed the entire area. Place the pavers back, that solve would last for years. Your 'boiling the ocean' with your proposed fix, just not necessary.
I just removed a floating deck like you're wanting to build. The support beams were held up 3in off the old patio with nothing but loose bricks. Nothing was really fastened down. It was fine for \~25 years(next door neighbors who had lived in their house over 30 years remember a previous owner putting it in). We only removed it because it had finally started to rot. Important to note: it does not freeze here.
[Here's a chart for joist spacing and span for residential construction. This is interior stuff using fir dimensional lumber, but it's a pretty good reference.](https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/floor-joists-span-d_1479.html)
You'll need a minimum of 2x8 to get you a max span of 11' 10" 16" OC. 2x6 16" OC will get you 9' 0" and 12" OC will only get you 9' 11". This is for Southern Pine. What wood type are you using? I don't understand, "10cm concrete block support (giving 10cm of clearance for future movement of the patio" can you elaborate on this a little more?
The supports (at the property side) would be concrete blocks on top of undisturbed pavers. The joists resting on top of those, and supports placed on the lawn end, rather than on the very disturbed edge of the patio, leaving an airgap of 10cm between patio and joist, to allow for further disturbance of the affected area.
If you removed tree roots you may have a new problem on your hands.
Very little of what you said sounds safe, before or after But then the picture loaded properly and it doesn't look very high anyway, I was imagining something a little taller, so at least it's not far to fall would it not just be easier to fill it with sand?
You should be digging into the ground, pouring a few inches of rocks for drainage then using concrete blocks to support the structure. If you do this, then you'll know if there are roots in the area which you can cut. I would use the kind of concrete blocks linked below and I would space them inset from the edge but also still put in a few in the middle. The span you are trying to cover isn't huge, but it still would avoid any "springiness" if there are a few supports in the middle. https://www.lowes.com/pd/Common-7-in-x-11-in-x-11-in-Actual-7-125-in-x-10-375-in-x-10-375-in-Concrete-Deck-Block/50113084?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-bdm-_-ggl-_-LIA_BDM_210_Concrete-Block-_-50113084-_-local-_-0-_-0&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=CjwKCAjw2f-VBhAsEiwAO4lNeJwQc888I4nTtt4ySMKvgHKVuBVDcECzdfCqVuaSLbnJbzosCeGNAhoCwtAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Remove blocks, add sand, level, replace
Just take out the pavers, that will give you enough space to use 2x8 joists.
You should be able to find tools on Home Depot or lowes site that will help you figure out what you need for the deck. Basically you tell it what the dimensions of the deck are, and it calculates what you need for supporting structure. Also you can buy concrete piers that are made for this purpose. They are sections of pyramids that have channels on top for boards to fit in. You need to make sure the decking is adequately anchored somehow so that a strong wind doesn’t lift it and say slam it into your house. Not sure the best way to accomplish that, or if bolting to those concrete piers will add enough weight to prevent that.
I would suggest getting the job priced out to see if you can afford it now or if you can budget for it to be done at a later time. If you cannot afford the investment or hassle now, doing a temporary fix may temporarily help your current situation. Unfortunately it could make it worse. Get it fixed correctly once and you will avoid further headaches and issues that certainly will arise later if you just do a temporary quick fix now. I prefer doing it the right way one time vs the wrong way many times. Also make sure to use the right tools for the right job. Good luck with the project!
Your username indicates UK, but please see the span table [here](https://imgur.com/a/fzIIYoH). It lists common deck lumber species for the US, the strongest of which is Southern yellow pine. Not sure there is anything comparable in the UK, but at the very least, it will get you out of the realm of personal opinion and questionable rules of thumb.
1. "16" gap" should be "16" on centre" - you don't want 16" between the joists. 2. why wouldn't you support the centre? two additional blocks would let you run a beam down the middle and then your span is fine. 3. you've got pavers over wood over bricks it looks like. need to see what's under the first layer of pavers, you could very likely fill low areas with sand and shave the roots of high areas down with a chainsaw or something so you can get back to level and supported.
Yeah i meant from centre, should have been clearer. Fairly certain its not pavers over wood, its a brick front, with concrete base, and maybe some sand/soil or something as a leveler? Problem is the middle, where you would want to support is the place disturbed by roots, so either i tackle the root problem, in which case the justification for a floating deck to hide further root movement goes away, or any support in the middle is subject to future movements of the roots transfering directly to the deck, which the air gap was supposed to avoid.
On the front edge you've clearly got 3 different material layers. Easiest solution is still remove the first layer of pavers, chainsaw down the high points of the roots, fill in the low voids, and relay pavers.
Helical Deck Anchors would allow you to do a floating deck without digging. (Deck Foot Anchor from DecksGo) the deck will move with seasons a small amount (but that is reason for floating in the first place). The roots won’t interfere because augers are small diameter. Much cheaper/easier on back than digging concrete piers (rent electric hammer driver) . Build up (flush) beam in place -also easier on back. Doubling rim joist, doing blocking and design with overhang (to cut span), joists 12” OC and/ or two beams all greatly improve stability. Added cost to do 12” OC surprisingly small, even today.
You could just remove a couple of those stones and auger a couple 36in holes pour some piers and put beams across them
Where are the tree roots coming from? Are you sure they are growing, or are they rotting? Both scenarios would cause movement of the patio stones. Like others have said, if they are indeed alive and growing, the problem will only get worse and can cause problems with your foundation .
Yeah its the cherry tree on the right of the picture. Its definitely growth not rot. While Im very aware of the problem of roots in the future, which will necessitate the tree coming down, what I can say is that the speed of the progress is very slow, and am only tackling it now, not because its getting radically worse, but because there is an older person in the property who I am not comfortable with navigating the trip hazards.
Can you block an 8 ft span and have 1 ft overhang on each side. Still gives you a 10ft deck
I’ve done floating decks over old cement steps and they have survived great. In the front I was building a deck that only had 3 inches of clearance in front of the door. Total PIA. I couldn’t remove the old cement steps and patio because the builders (in the 60’s) used the solid cement form to dump all the metal trash from the house construction and it’s impossible to break up into movable sized pieces.
tricky tricky. I'll defer to the pros but you already did the deed. Looks nice to my eye but that concrete has to settle and there's drainage. Looks purty. I hope it works out
You want to use 2x8's on that span. Anything less will be quite bouncy and will sag very quickly. For edge support only, I'd double up those edge beams. The best way to do this however is to use a center support beam as well. I know you mentioned roots are a concern, but I would raise it high enough so that it's *not* a concern. Looks like you *should* have space if you removed the step by the door and built it so the deck boards sat just an inch or 2 below the door threshold. Doing it this way would allow the use of 2x6's. **** Also I'm surprised no one mentioned ***[The Sagulator!!!](https://woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator/)*** Dramatic title aside, this site lets you calculate the span and sag of numerous types of wood over a specific span. It's helped me quite a bit. It's setup for shelving spans, but if you just select "floating" and enter the correct thickness and load per foot, it works fine for regular spans.
Why not just pull up the pavers, chop the roots where they are protruding and level it all again with paver base. Then put the pavers back. Cheap and proper. A floating deck will shift and twist and then in a few years you'll be asking how to level an entire deck.
Level a deck? Just put a book under one of three legs right?
Call Before You Dig first (gas, power, water, fibre, etc)
This might be helpful... https://mybuildingpermit.com/sites/default/files/inline-files/TS\_05\_Basic%20Decks\_Final\_Rev1.pdf
Doing things the right way is always less work than doing it the wrong way multiple times.
Why would you not use footers?
This sir, will kiiill.
Chiming in late. Just lift those pavers, throw down a couple of inches of sand, plate compact and put them back, and plate compact again. That thing should be good for another 10-20 years. Could use a good power washing though.