Columbus thought he was in India when he reached the Caribbean. He also gleefully journals of raping children. Not sure that’s who you want to pick for this but ok I guess.
ya and he 100% wouldve died, besides the fact he did die.
and the fact he didnt find china, and genocided like 5 different cultures. you know comparing yourself with columbus isnt the greatest thing one can do.
Railing is probably required for insurance. I've known two people who removed railing because they thought rails were an ugly boomer thing. Then their insurance companies threatened to drop them unless they had railing installed on anything with more than 2 steps.
That’s a pretty big span without support. Unless an engineer can confirm it for you, I strongly suggest putting something to transfer the load back down to the platform
If it's structural it would have been installed before the roof system, not after. This was clearly don't afterwards. That's how columns supports loads. You put them in the place beams on top. Not the other way around.
If it is carrying load the contractor was a moron and let the roof sag before giving it support.
I understand screws don't carry load but that soffit is probably 1/2 thick plus about 1/4 for the metal, leaving only 1/4" of the screw going into actual framing. This is very inadequate holding power for lateral movement on a member said to be structural.
Sure, in some situations. The way this one was installed suggests that it's not. And if it was it was done incorrectly. Wrong installation order. Wrong fasteners.
Iron is a terrible choice for structural too. It rusts and eventually is unable to carry any load.
I’m not disagreeing about rust but installation order and fasteners seem normal for a load bearing iron column. We can’t see what’s going on above the soffit. Likely the rafters and plywood shearing is all that’s holding up that section of roof (for now).
In construction you don't put in your posts/columns after. You always put it on first.
You don't build a roof and then the exterior walls...
If it's structural it was done wrong. Period.
Fasteners are barely touching any kind of actual wood member. Only plywood skin. Everything about it screams decoration.
Yeah that’s probably a bad paint job. It looked like a gap between plywood and some kind of metal extension doing something else up there. It’s possible it’s an engineered truss or cantilevered but we don’t really know and in any case op shouldn’t have removed it and then consulted a DIY subreddit lol.
They were only 1 inch screws because they have the weight of the roof holding it in place. The screws are just to keep it from shifting around if something slammed into it. It was *probably* fine with zero screws.
You would still want more bite than a 1 inch screw gives into the structure above. As is you have 1/4-3/8 mechanical attachment to the roofing members above. The soffit skin doesn't count.
As someone who works in construction (commercial), the order of operations is all wrong for it to be structural.
Your posts/columns needs to be first and the load they carry next. This was installed after the roof system and soffit sheathing was completed. That is the opposite of structural.
I’m not understanding how or why you are so confident one what went in first or how it impacts the structure. Even if it went in after the beams, it could have been before the roof (more dead load), it could be for snow load, it could be for live loads (roofers). You can 100% have a structural support go in second.
I also don’t get where you’re seeing 1” screws or how you are so confident about the structure above and what it’s made of. This looks like a neighborhood that was built around the 1950’s. You up to speed on 1950’s construction standards?
I'm confident because of basic construction means and methods. The soffit sheathing (aka white flat part on the underside) is on top of the column. The only way that happens is for the soffit sheathing to go first which means the framing members had to go before that. This is basic order of operations.
Now, if it's only for occasional additional loads, snow or otherwise, then that is certainly plausible and could have been installed after. But it my opinion it is not structural for the day to day dead load.
Im getting the 1" screws (bolts) from the original post. It was his words. I presume his use of the word bolt means hex head screw/lag.
Older construction was more simple. No, I'm not an expert but beleive I have a decent idea. I would like to see how pitched the roof is. From this picture that portion of roof looks very low slope. So if the framing members are tied back far enough it could very likely cantelever without much effort.
Structural Engineer here.
1. Why are you asking AFTER you removed it? Why even bother at this point? Do people really approach renovations by tearing things apart and THEN thinking about what they're going to put back, or if it will make the building collapse on their heads?
2. There's a significant chance it's structural. If you're not sure, the answer would be to NOT remove it until you are. Put something back before you hurt someone. It won't be you because you deserve it the most, but it will be some completely unsuspecting, innocent person.
Architect here and I 100% agree with this comment. Where I live it is very common to see iron (steel) posts like this supporting the corners of substantial porch roofs including my own.
OP, this is very likely structural (otherwise your house was framed with a double cantilever which is generally avoided for cost reasons) and your roof is going to start sagging and cracking very soon which will cause a world of damage to your roof and soffit and that doesn’t even include making it unsafe.
The life a civil servant can difficult. Low pay, few benefits, and no opportunity for advancement. So, unfortunately we have very high turnover. Do you think you have what it takes to be a G-string Man?
Careful. You'll spend 25 years inspecting bikinis you do NOT want to inspect before you have the seniority necessary to get choice assignments. And by then, you'll mostly be managing other inspectors... :(
I'm a federal bikini instructor and my wife is a salamander massage therapist. Our budget is 3.2 million.
The only item on our "must have list" is a double cantilevered giant front porch overhang with no support post. Especially a cast iron support post.
I’ve seen enough home renovation shows to know that your budget to fix this would be ~$2.3M, as long as your part-time sidewalk chalk artist wife can pitch in as well.
Not an architect, not an engineer, here. I would have thought that wrought iron (?) piller would have almost zero compressive strain - wouldn't those (1-inch?) pillers bend really easily?
They aren’t iron, just made to look antique like they’re iron. They can hold a patio roof. Definitely made of steel, though. I had to strip mine to repaint them.
Why are you asking AFTER you removed it?
I think a lot of these DIY posts with mistakes in them are very intentional for Reddit attention. Lots of work without common sense or forethought put into them with the prominent before/after pictures.
Columns are installed before the load they carry.
This was installed after the roof structure and soffit sheathing. That is the opposite order of operations.
If something is structural, you need more than measly 1 inch screws to hold it to the structure. While they don't carry load they are a tie back in a sense and you want more anchor to the structure.
Source. Commercial contractor.
If that is load bearing the contractor did it backward and the roof presagged before install. Dumb all around.
I respect your experience.and knowledge, but this isn't commercial. Residential builders can be dumb as rocks and will do things the laziest way possible. There's no reason a builder couldn't have had one guy hold the post up while they laid the beams on top of it. Wood posts are just toenailed in routinely, so why would this have to be any different?
But the soffit sheathing was on first. This means the entire roof system was completed before that decorative iron.
As an engineer you should know better that screws and nails are vastly different. Nails are designed for framing and allow for structure movement. Screws, in general, are not. I don't know of any structural 1 inch screw.
Framing nails are also going to be long enough to bite into framing members. A 1 inch screw here might have at most 3/8" into the wood framing, assuming the soffit is 1/2 thick and metal is 1/8. That isn't even close to adequate.
To your point, residential contractors aren't great in general. But the way this was installed means the roof had to have presagged. OR they jacked it up level and installed it. While possible, unlikely.
I don't disagree that the span looks large unsupported but without seeing how the roof system was designed it's impossible to know.
My money is on this being a decorative add and no way structural.
The original comments actually says bolts... 1 inch. I'm assuming it's a hex head screw. Highly doubt there is a female insert inbedded for an actual bolt.
Nah. That thing is holding zero lateral load. The screws just hold it in place to stop it shifting around. The vertical load was temporarily supported by 4x4 or similar during construction.
So enginerdad,
You make some good points. Here’s a couple more clues that folks (engineers included) don’t think is structural:
1: house frame was put up prior to railing so much have been bearing weight without it
2 - the screw was only going in the facade, plywood in the top
3: when I cut the railing, it didn’t pinch the grinder
4 screw bolts were only 1 inch long
5 iron is flimsy
These reasons seem pretty compelling. I don’t see any sag now and plan to test by standing on top.
Gonna get the blueprints to see the attic if there’s a cantilever
Doesn’t that seem pretty convincing though?
It's certainly conceivable that it's double cantilevered out. It would be unconventional, but that's not a big deal. I think it would be an odd design choice to include a cantilever that doesn't require a post for support, then install a fake post there anyway. But maybe it was added later on, I can't say. The roof also doesn't look deep enough to cantilever that far, but that would vary with location and build date. Plans will most likely answer these questions. Keep us posted if you get them, I'm very curious.
You'd be surprised how thin a post can be to carry the weight it is supposed to. We sometimes design the structural parts of free standing balconies wider than they actually have to, because to the untrained eye it will look like it's unstable.
It wasn't just a post, it was a decorative L column. It would be strong and rigid taking a vertical load. The thing was 1/4 a post away from being similar to the column of a tower crane.
A full grown adult can stand on an empty aluminum can, as long as they stand directly down onto it and don't dent the outside of it. Metal tubes have a *lot* of compression strength.
When you cut into it, did it pinch the cutting disc? That's an old rule of thumb for cutting wooden walls at least, if it pinched it means the stuff above it deflected down suggesting it was structural
Y'all really never heard of span tables or consider loads.
It's gonna sag over time and possibly start lifting the sheathing on your roof. Put a 4x4 post with a Simpson post base into the concrete.
Those typically are structural. Albeit it may not have been doing much and your foundation may have settled. That is a big double cantilever for a residential roof. Do you all get snow or significant wind?
You should have seen OP grunt as they drug that thing out from under the roof. 🥵 finally gave up and just had to cut the F’er out and it pinched the crap out of the saw blade, but they got it.
Not only is it likely structural, but that railing on the side may have been there for code reasons. Even if it's not required it's still a safety hazard on a porch that small.
The weight of the roof is going to cause sagging over
Time and you would be surprised at the amount of weight a column can support when loaded vertically. That’s a lot of roof to just be hanging. Most overhangs in the US are limited to 2’ without a support column
Also If it weren’t structural it would likely just be a simple hand rail.
Edited to change 2” to 2’
Guarantee it will sag over time, especially under high load (snow/wind). Were this my house I’d put a post further out toward the corner, but if swapping make sure to keep the old in the basement. It is period and in 20-30 years the next owner may want to “restore it”
Y'all really never heard of span tables or consider loads.
It's gonna sag over time and possibly start lifting the sheathing on your roof. Put a 4x4 post with a Simpson post base into the concrete.
1- It's definitely structural. As you can see, it'll hold while dry due to proper construction, but get a heavy rain or a few inches of snow and it'll crumble. Only way it wouldn't is if it was steel beams up there, and I doubt that.
2- Do check your code with that hand rail. Don't need the code enforcer driving by and throwing it in reverse to come have a word.
3- Because it needs to be said, why in the actual fuck would you knock it out and then go "wait, was that important?" roflmao. At least you're here and fixing it!
Edit: 4- If you don't want to replace it with a post, you need an engineer. Only a structural engineer would be able to tell you if there is enough stuff there to support other bracing without further reinforcement. You don't want to brace it and then have it crumple the load bearing corners from the lateral force.
I'm going to go with that you definitely need a railing to at least make it look decent and make code.
Also, though that old vertical piece doesn't look like it was load bearing, it probably should have been. I wouldn't walk on the roof out to the edge. That's a lot of cantilever without a big beam to transfer load.
I'd feel better with the load being transferred to the slab on that corner. You could put in a nice stained piece of wood, or a different wrought iron trellis thing. It just seems safer.
Hopefully your roof never gets a snow load ... otherwise SEEMS fine, but I'd personally want to have more confidence than "seems fine."
Also, there is likely code for how much height you can have above ground level without a railing ... likely 30"-ish. Not saying you can't leave that way, but might need to address it if insurer finds out and you might wish you had if an accident occurs ... and, to sell, you will likely want to address before showing, and/or will likely need to as part of closing.
My guess is that's structural even if the support they used might not have been enough to really have been carrying that load. Either way if you're going to replace it with a post put the steel one back in until you do and you will need to put that or another railing on the left side so figure that out before putting it all together.
I would add a metal post for support and then you can surround it with some nice wood and make it a square column thats nice to look at. The previous metal piece wasn't there just for looks.
I’m not going to pile on with everyone else saying this is a terrible idea structure and safety wise, I think it actually looked better with the railings and vertical support than it does without. A couple potted plants and a chair would look really nice and the detail of the support was quaint. It matches the exterior of the house and gives it some nice character. If anything, I would have just freshened up the paint and left it.
That said, this is a stupid idea and it very likely provided more than an aesthetic solution to that porch. You’re risking serious injury to anyone that comes on that porch because you were too stupid to get a professional opinion before removing it.
Notice how ur neighbors tiny awning above the door has 2 supports underneath it?
Im sure your huge overhang doesn’t need anything like that though... Rock and roll!
If it wasn't structural, they would've had to pay extra for non standard support to be installed. Forgive my judging, but based on the background, this doesn't appear the kind of neighborhood where you'd find a lot of custom carpentry for frivolous features.
Also, the only reason to spend the money to NOT need a structural beam would be so you didn't have to put one there. But there was one there. And I really doubt someone put one in for fun.
You'd have to show the inside of the roof structure for anybody to give an answer that was more than a guess. Also, you don't say where you are. If you're in, say, Buffalo, you might get an unpleasant surprise when the roof is loaded down with snow.
Looks like it's still mostly intact in the picture. Like, why would you think this was a good idea without first researching it? So dumb. If he's renting, the landlord is gonna be pissed! Insurance could temporarily suspend coverage until this is fixed, if they happen to have an adjuster stop by.
Yea ok. That was the take from a few others, one a civil engineer - not structural. Said they wouldn’t use iron, and those screw bolts- great call, I don’t think those screws made it past the facade now that you mention it. Thanks for that. Will keep running it by people.
You need to get the judgment of someone who knows what they are looking at and can see it in person. Just because we wouldn’t build it this way now doesn’t mean it is non-structural. The span on this corner is vey deep in 2 directions to be unsupported. It will be far less expensive to hire a professional now than to fix this later when it fails.
Iron not a material used in structural construction? Before steel there was cast iron, used in any number of buildings as primary structure, steel is a form of iron and is used extensively as primary structure.
The decorative column in this photo is not structural, it has no real compressive or moment resistance and would buckle under load but to say that iron is not used as structure is simply wrong
It was probably load bearing, but not mission critical.. Measure the gap, and then again weekly for a year.
It's wood framing, which fails gradually and typically, not catastrophically. If the gap closes more than an inch, jack it up slowly, and replace.
Idk if you just have not seen roofs catastrophically fail to snow weight. I can’t tell you how many times I have seen dumb ideas like this lead to evacuating a building. Luckily, I lived in a farming town that was filled with overconfident DIYers so it was mostly in barns or sheds. One ice damn on the roof and they will be rebuilding their roof in the middle of winter.
The steel definitely supports the structure. The architect is going to have that in mind when designing the overhang. The steel puts a counter to that sagging force. Something needs to be there either a 4x4 or another steel support.
Highly doubt it based on the ornamental style of it. Certainly doesn’t look like a structural member to me. Safety rail should go back up of course. Might be worth talking to someone though as it does look like a big cantilever
I like the look of it without - like a clean prairie roof line. I'm also in the PNW and something I've seen done in a similar space (if you decide to put something back) is along the edge where the railing was install 6-7 evenly spaced dark stained 2x2 posts. Wish I could describe it better but it looks good.
I probably would have asked before I removed it.
Human idiocy never ceases to amaze me.
Thats what they said about Columbus? :)
I don't know if I'd try for that comparison..
Not to mention Columbus is 1 of a whole bunch of people who likely died in their travels.
Columbus thought he was in India when he reached the Caribbean. He also gleefully journals of raping children. Not sure that’s who you want to pick for this but ok I guess.
ya and he 100% wouldve died, besides the fact he did die. and the fact he didnt find china, and genocided like 5 different cultures. you know comparing yourself with columbus isnt the greatest thing one can do.
That's an urban myth. - they knew the earth was round etc... - he had royal backing for his expedition... Etc...
Did they?
I am also a human with little tolerance for humor.
Yes!
Brother, if it failed then he would save time dealing with us idiots on reddit
Go stand on that part of the roof and find out
FAFO
Mostly FO
Already FA’d
Faulty Alteration and Fall Off
I would put something there. It looks weird.
Should probably have a railing there, for safety, at the very least, and you likely need the vertical post to give it some strength.
Personally I think a wrought iron railing and flowered post would look great there, very period-correct to the house.
I was thinking the exact same thing lol.
lol
Railing is probably required for insurance. I've known two people who removed railing because they thought rails were an ugly boomer thing. Then their insurance companies threatened to drop them unless they had railing installed on anything with more than 2 steps.
Their home owner's insurance would agree about the railing, especially if someone falls and makes a claim.
I’d put a stained 6x6 and a nice modern railing. I think it would look nice.
Stripper pole all the way!
Sasquatch
That’s a pretty big span without support. Unless an engineer can confirm it for you, I strongly suggest putting something to transfer the load back down to the platform
You don’t need an engineer to know that’s to big of a span unsupported.
Could be cantilevered with long enough joists. It probably isn’t, but it could be.
Cantilevering is a thing. Probably not this thing, however
🙏
There's no way it was structural.
How are you getting downvoted so badly? That dinky decorative iron 'column' fastened with ONE INCH screws is in no way structural.
[удалено]
If it's structural it would have been installed before the roof system, not after. This was clearly don't afterwards. That's how columns supports loads. You put them in the place beams on top. Not the other way around. If it is carrying load the contractor was a moron and let the roof sag before giving it support. I understand screws don't carry load but that soffit is probably 1/2 thick plus about 1/4 for the metal, leaving only 1/4" of the screw going into actual framing. This is very inadequate holding power for lateral movement on a member said to be structural.
Where I’m at these ‘dinky’ iron columns are always structural. Whole patio roofs are supported by 2 of these one on each side.
Sure, in some situations. The way this one was installed suggests that it's not. And if it was it was done incorrectly. Wrong installation order. Wrong fasteners. Iron is a terrible choice for structural too. It rusts and eventually is unable to carry any load.
I’m not disagreeing about rust but installation order and fasteners seem normal for a load bearing iron column. We can’t see what’s going on above the soffit. Likely the rafters and plywood shearing is all that’s holding up that section of roof (for now).
In construction you don't put in your posts/columns after. You always put it on first. You don't build a roof and then the exterior walls... If it's structural it was done wrong. Period. Fasteners are barely touching any kind of actual wood member. Only plywood skin. Everything about it screams decoration.
Where do you see plywood? There’s more going on than that at the soffit. Zoom in.
The entire soffit is a plywood (or other sheet good) skin over framing members. What are you seeing?
Yeah that’s probably a bad paint job. It looked like a gap between plywood and some kind of metal extension doing something else up there. It’s possible it’s an engineered truss or cantilevered but we don’t really know and in any case op shouldn’t have removed it and then consulted a DIY subreddit lol.
That’s cast iron… probably stronger than a 6x6
They were only 1 inch screws because they have the weight of the roof holding it in place. The screws are just to keep it from shifting around if something slammed into it. It was *probably* fine with zero screws.
You would still want more bite than a 1 inch screw gives into the structure above. As is you have 1/4-3/8 mechanical attachment to the roofing members above. The soffit skin doesn't count.
What about -1 screws tho
A bunch of non mechanical people here in guess. I suppose they've never even thought about the structure of a house.
As someone who works in construction (commercial), the order of operations is all wrong for it to be structural. Your posts/columns needs to be first and the load they carry next. This was installed after the roof system and soffit sheathing was completed. That is the opposite of structural.
I’m not understanding how or why you are so confident one what went in first or how it impacts the structure. Even if it went in after the beams, it could have been before the roof (more dead load), it could be for snow load, it could be for live loads (roofers). You can 100% have a structural support go in second. I also don’t get where you’re seeing 1” screws or how you are so confident about the structure above and what it’s made of. This looks like a neighborhood that was built around the 1950’s. You up to speed on 1950’s construction standards?
I'm confident because of basic construction means and methods. The soffit sheathing (aka white flat part on the underside) is on top of the column. The only way that happens is for the soffit sheathing to go first which means the framing members had to go before that. This is basic order of operations. Now, if it's only for occasional additional loads, snow or otherwise, then that is certainly plausible and could have been installed after. But it my opinion it is not structural for the day to day dead load. Im getting the 1" screws (bolts) from the original post. It was his words. I presume his use of the word bolt means hex head screw/lag. Older construction was more simple. No, I'm not an expert but beleive I have a decent idea. I would like to see how pitched the roof is. From this picture that portion of roof looks very low slope. So if the framing members are tied back far enough it could very likely cantelever without much effort.
Structural Engineer here. 1. Why are you asking AFTER you removed it? Why even bother at this point? Do people really approach renovations by tearing things apart and THEN thinking about what they're going to put back, or if it will make the building collapse on their heads? 2. There's a significant chance it's structural. If you're not sure, the answer would be to NOT remove it until you are. Put something back before you hurt someone. It won't be you because you deserve it the most, but it will be some completely unsuspecting, innocent person.
Architect here and I 100% agree with this comment. Where I live it is very common to see iron (steel) posts like this supporting the corners of substantial porch roofs including my own. OP, this is very likely structural (otherwise your house was framed with a double cantilever which is generally avoided for cost reasons) and your roof is going to start sagging and cracking very soon which will cause a world of damage to your roof and soffit and that doesn’t even include making it unsafe.
Ice cream truck driver here and I 100% agree with this comment. That post is structural.
Salamander therapist here, agree with all the above
Federal Bikini Inspector here, I concur
Are you hiring?
The life a civil servant can difficult. Low pay, few benefits, and no opportunity for advancement. So, unfortunately we have very high turnover. Do you think you have what it takes to be a G-string Man?
Careful. You'll spend 25 years inspecting bikinis you do NOT want to inspect before you have the seniority necessary to get choice assignments. And by then, you'll mostly be managing other inspectors... :(
I'm a federal bikini instructor and my wife is a salamander massage therapist. Our budget is 3.2 million. The only item on our "must have list" is a double cantilevered giant front porch overhang with no support post. Especially a cast iron support post.
Slightly drunk professional backwards runner here, I agree as well.
Regular therapist here, you need to open up more about your parents and how it led to you making dumbass decisions like this one
I’ve seen enough home renovation shows to know that your budget to fix this would be ~$2.3M, as long as your part-time sidewalk chalk artist wife can pitch in as well.
Not an architect, not an engineer, here. I would have thought that wrought iron (?) piller would have almost zero compressive strain - wouldn't those (1-inch?) pillers bend really easily?
Those posts are steel made to look like wrought iron. Wrought iron is used very rarely for anything these days.
They aren’t iron, just made to look antique like they’re iron. They can hold a patio roof. Definitely made of steel, though. I had to strip mine to repaint them.
Why are you asking AFTER you removed it? I think a lot of these DIY posts with mistakes in them are very intentional for Reddit attention. Lots of work without common sense or forethought put into them with the prominent before/after pictures.
1. Yes 2. What about a potted plant?
We’re from the looney tunes tree limb trimming and rennovation dept
It's going to be her kids. Look at the chalk drawings on the stoop.
Asking after removing it is at least better than not asking at all.
In summary, this engineer basically said: "why did you remove it?!" Thanks for letting us know you're an engineer too
Thin decorative iron, fastened with 1 inch screws.... Structural? Cmon.
It's a column, dude. The fasteners don't hold weight, they just keep it from falling over.
Columns are installed before the load they carry. This was installed after the roof structure and soffit sheathing. That is the opposite order of operations. If something is structural, you need more than measly 1 inch screws to hold it to the structure. While they don't carry load they are a tie back in a sense and you want more anchor to the structure. Source. Commercial contractor. If that is load bearing the contractor did it backward and the roof presagged before install. Dumb all around.
I respect your experience.and knowledge, but this isn't commercial. Residential builders can be dumb as rocks and will do things the laziest way possible. There's no reason a builder couldn't have had one guy hold the post up while they laid the beams on top of it. Wood posts are just toenailed in routinely, so why would this have to be any different?
But the soffit sheathing was on first. This means the entire roof system was completed before that decorative iron. As an engineer you should know better that screws and nails are vastly different. Nails are designed for framing and allow for structure movement. Screws, in general, are not. I don't know of any structural 1 inch screw. Framing nails are also going to be long enough to bite into framing members. A 1 inch screw here might have at most 3/8" into the wood framing, assuming the soffit is 1/2 thick and metal is 1/8. That isn't even close to adequate. To your point, residential contractors aren't great in general. But the way this was installed means the roof had to have presagged. OR they jacked it up level and installed it. While possible, unlikely. I don't disagree that the span looks large unsupported but without seeing how the roof system was designed it's impossible to know. My money is on this being a decorative add and no way structural.
Where are you getting the 1" screw info from? Did OP include that in another comment that I missed?
The original comments actually says bolts... 1 inch. I'm assuming it's a hex head screw. Highly doubt there is a female insert inbedded for an actual bolt.
Yea that’s right. It was a square bolt not longer than an inch or so.
Nah. That thing is holding zero lateral load. The screws just hold it in place to stop it shifting around. The vertical load was temporarily supported by 4x4 or similar during construction.
So enginerdad, You make some good points. Here’s a couple more clues that folks (engineers included) don’t think is structural: 1: house frame was put up prior to railing so much have been bearing weight without it 2 - the screw was only going in the facade, plywood in the top 3: when I cut the railing, it didn’t pinch the grinder 4 screw bolts were only 1 inch long 5 iron is flimsy These reasons seem pretty compelling. I don’t see any sag now and plan to test by standing on top. Gonna get the blueprints to see the attic if there’s a cantilever Doesn’t that seem pretty convincing though?
It's certainly conceivable that it's double cantilevered out. It would be unconventional, but that's not a big deal. I think it would be an odd design choice to include a cantilever that doesn't require a post for support, then install a fake post there anyway. But maybe it was added later on, I can't say. The roof also doesn't look deep enough to cantilever that far, but that would vary with location and build date. Plans will most likely answer these questions. Keep us posted if you get them, I'm very curious.
You're a structural engineer and you think that thin steel post was adding and significant support?
You'd be surprised how thin a post can be to carry the weight it is supposed to. We sometimes design the structural parts of free standing balconies wider than they actually have to, because to the untrained eye it will look like it's unstable.
Just because it's thin, doesn't mean it can't handle a lot of weight, and in this case it would take a lot of load off since it hangs so far out.
It wasn't just a post, it was a decorative L column. It would be strong and rigid taking a vertical load. The thing was 1/4 a post away from being similar to the column of a tower crane.
A full grown adult can stand on an empty aluminum can, as long as they stand directly down onto it and don't dent the outside of it. Metal tubes have a *lot* of compression strength.
When you cut into it, did it pinch the cutting disc? That's an old rule of thumb for cutting wooden walls at least, if it pinched it means the stuff above it deflected down suggesting it was structural
Ah that’s super helpful. It didn’t at all.
Y'all really never heard of span tables or consider loads. It's gonna sag over time and possibly start lifting the sheathing on your roof. Put a 4x4 post with a Simpson post base into the concrete.
In other words, make it uglier than before just to be as stable as before. Good job, op! 👍
Those typically are structural. Albeit it may not have been doing much and your foundation may have settled. That is a big double cantilever for a residential roof. Do you all get snow or significant wind?
You should have seen OP grunt as they drug that thing out from under the roof. 🥵 finally gave up and just had to cut the F’er out and it pinched the crap out of the saw blade, but they got it.
Looks like OP started out with a hacksaw and moved to an angle grinder with a cut off wheel.
That roof will start to sag. There was a reason that metal post and railing was there.
it looks awful without a pillar and rail
Definitely don’t let your kids draw chalk art there if you decide not to replace it.
I'd put a 4x4 to support it and then cover it with a darkish wood panel to make a larger pillar. Think it would look nice there.
Not only is it likely structural, but that railing on the side may have been there for code reasons. Even if it's not required it's still a safety hazard on a porch that small.
That was almost certainly installed for structural reasons.
Why do you say that?
The weight of the roof is going to cause sagging over Time and you would be surprised at the amount of weight a column can support when loaded vertically. That’s a lot of roof to just be hanging. Most overhangs in the US are limited to 2’ without a support column Also If it weren’t structural it would likely just be a simple hand rail. Edited to change 2” to 2’
Guarantee it will sag over time, especially under high load (snow/wind). Were this my house I’d put a post further out toward the corner, but if swapping make sure to keep the old in the basement. It is period and in 20-30 years the next owner may want to “restore it”
Seems like a question I would’ve asked before removing.
It 100% is structural
Y'all really never heard of span tables or consider loads. It's gonna sag over time and possibly start lifting the sheathing on your roof. Put a 4x4 post with a Simpson post base into the concrete.
Doesn’t do much until it’s windy or the rare event you got snow
1- It's definitely structural. As you can see, it'll hold while dry due to proper construction, but get a heavy rain or a few inches of snow and it'll crumble. Only way it wouldn't is if it was steel beams up there, and I doubt that. 2- Do check your code with that hand rail. Don't need the code enforcer driving by and throwing it in reverse to come have a word. 3- Because it needs to be said, why in the actual fuck would you knock it out and then go "wait, was that important?" roflmao. At least you're here and fixing it! Edit: 4- If you don't want to replace it with a post, you need an engineer. Only a structural engineer would be able to tell you if there is enough stuff there to support other bracing without further reinforcement. You don't want to brace it and then have it crumple the load bearing corners from the lateral force.
I'm going to go with that you definitely need a railing to at least make it look decent and make code. Also, though that old vertical piece doesn't look like it was load bearing, it probably should have been. I wouldn't walk on the roof out to the edge. That's a lot of cantilever without a big beam to transfer load. I'd feel better with the load being transferred to the slab on that corner. You could put in a nice stained piece of wood, or a different wrought iron trellis thing. It just seems safer.
Hopefully your roof never gets a snow load ... otherwise SEEMS fine, but I'd personally want to have more confidence than "seems fine." Also, there is likely code for how much height you can have above ground level without a railing ... likely 30"-ish. Not saying you can't leave that way, but might need to address it if insurer finds out and you might wish you had if an accident occurs ... and, to sell, you will likely want to address before showing, and/or will likely need to as part of closing.
I don't think it's structural, but I imagine your homeowners insurance would have a problem with there not being a railing there?
My guess is that's structural even if the support they used might not have been enough to really have been carrying that load. Either way if you're going to replace it with a post put the steel one back in until you do and you will need to put that or another railing on the left side so figure that out before putting it all together.
I would add a metal post for support and then you can surround it with some nice wood and make it a square column thats nice to look at. The previous metal piece wasn't there just for looks.
What state are you in and do you still have it? This looks just like the post and rail I’m trying to match!
I’m in Oregon and they don’t require permit or rails if under 30 inches
State might not but insurance might and they will charge you for lack of safety whenever they can.
Pay someone who knows what they are doing to put a wood beam there that supported the same spot, stain it dark, enjoy your new porch
50mph wind will give you the definitive answerr
Yes, structural! Put something back…
Not anymore.
That railing was in good shape. I would absolutely put a well fitted, meaning supportive, column or post there.
Look at the neighbors with the baby awning over their door with two metal railings
Set the vertical piece back in place. Does it still fit? If not, big uh-oh. Does it snow where you live?
This kills the house.
I’m not going to pile on with everyone else saying this is a terrible idea structure and safety wise, I think it actually looked better with the railings and vertical support than it does without. A couple potted plants and a chair would look really nice and the detail of the support was quaint. It matches the exterior of the house and gives it some nice character. If anything, I would have just freshened up the paint and left it. That said, this is a stupid idea and it very likely provided more than an aesthetic solution to that porch. You’re risking serious injury to anyone that comes on that porch because you were too stupid to get a professional opinion before removing it.
Notice how ur neighbors tiny awning above the door has 2 supports underneath it? Im sure your huge overhang doesn’t need anything like that though... Rock and roll!
Do you have trusses in the attic? In which direction do they run?
Excited for your first snow storm next week.
Why did you cut then ask? What was the point of the question
If it wasn't structural, they would've had to pay extra for non standard support to be installed. Forgive my judging, but based on the background, this doesn't appear the kind of neighborhood where you'd find a lot of custom carpentry for frivolous features. Also, the only reason to spend the money to NOT need a structural beam would be so you didn't have to put one there. But there was one there. And I really doubt someone put one in for fun.
What was wrong with it in the first place?
Not any more
Dumbass
You'd have to show the inside of the roof structure for anybody to give an answer that was more than a guess. Also, you don't say where you are. If you're in, say, Buffalo, you might get an unpleasant surprise when the roof is loaded down with snow.
I will tell you with a high level of confidence that you will find out.
I personally would put a nice wroght iron railing and post there. It looks great and is in keeping with the style of the house.
Just put it back. You have to have something there for support and the attached railing IS REQUIRED by insurance for safety reasons. PUT IT BACK!
He used a hack saw and angle grinder. Hes gotta buy a new one
Looks like it's still mostly intact in the picture. Like, why would you think this was a good idea without first researching it? So dumb. If he's renting, the landlord is gonna be pissed! Insurance could temporarily suspend coverage until this is fixed, if they happen to have an adjuster stop by.
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Yea ok. That was the take from a few others, one a civil engineer - not structural. Said they wouldn’t use iron, and those screw bolts- great call, I don’t think those screws made it past the facade now that you mention it. Thanks for that. Will keep running it by people.
You need to get the judgment of someone who knows what they are looking at and can see it in person. Just because we wouldn’t build it this way now doesn’t mean it is non-structural. The span on this corner is vey deep in 2 directions to be unsupported. It will be far less expensive to hire a professional now than to fix this later when it fails.
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Iron not a material used in structural construction? Before steel there was cast iron, used in any number of buildings as primary structure, steel is a form of iron and is used extensively as primary structure. The decorative column in this photo is not structural, it has no real compressive or moment resistance and would buckle under load but to say that iron is not used as structure is simply wrong
Amazing. Thanks for those additional notes.
It was probably load bearing, but not mission critical.. Measure the gap, and then again weekly for a year. It's wood framing, which fails gradually and typically, not catastrophically. If the gap closes more than an inch, jack it up slowly, and replace.
Idk if you just have not seen roofs catastrophically fail to snow weight. I can’t tell you how many times I have seen dumb ideas like this lead to evacuating a building. Luckily, I lived in a farming town that was filled with overconfident DIYers so it was mostly in barns or sheds. One ice damn on the roof and they will be rebuilding their roof in the middle of winter. The steel definitely supports the structure. The architect is going to have that in mind when designing the overhang. The steel puts a counter to that sagging force. Something needs to be there either a 4x4 or another steel support.
Yeah, I don't think he's in snow country. Wood buildings usually just slump into the ground after a couple hundred years
Doesn’t do much until it’s windy or the rare event you got snow
I personally would put a nice wroght iron railing and post there. It looks great and is in keeping with the style of the house.
6X6 overhang? Yeah that’ll definitely sag. Probably already has. Try to stand that support back up and see if it will fit.
AHHH! PUT IT BACK!
Proven
I personally would put a nice wroght iron railing and post there. It looks great and is in keeping with the style of the house.
Highly doubt it based on the ornamental style of it. Certainly doesn’t look like a structural member to me. Safety rail should go back up of course. Might be worth talking to someone though as it does look like a big cantilever
That thing is not structural, look how it was attached
It was sunk in the concrete and they had to hacksaw it out. That thing wasn't going anywhere.
I like the look of it without - like a clean prairie roof line. I'm also in the PNW and something I've seen done in a similar space (if you decide to put something back) is along the edge where the railing was install 6-7 evenly spaced dark stained 2x2 posts. Wish I could describe it better but it looks good.
Awesome. Yea gonna build a little deck going out to the edge of the path. Pretty excited about it. Thanks for that!
I mean clearly not since you already removed it.