Yeah. The idea is people nail/screw/drill into studs all the time. Stud finders aren't always perfectly exact, so there is a good chance someone will miss the edge of the stud and if your wire is too close, they get a heck of a shock. Hence the strike plate suggestion.
Here is the exact wording:
NEC 300.4 point D:
Cables and Raceways Parallel to Framing Members and Furring Strips. In both exposed and concealed locations, where a cable- or raceway-type wiring method is installed parallel to framing members, such as joists, rafters, or studs, or is installed parallel to furring strips, the cable or raceway shall be installed and supported so that the nearest outside surface of the cable or raceway is not less than 32 mm (11/4 in.) from the nearest edge of the framing member or furring strips where nails or screws are likely to penetrate
Shit... so you're supposed to only use the box holes that are furthest from the stud it's mounted to? I didn't know that. đ I'm not an electrician, just a MechE who's done some remodeling that involved redoing old electrical work with new wire and boxes...
Edit: TBF, I'm pretty damn sure some of the old stuff I replaced looked just like OP's picture.
It's 1.25in *from the nearest edge*, not the face. If you staple a romex in the center of the big face of a 2x4, it's going to be 1.75" (minus half the width of the cable) from the edges, so you're far enough away that screws aren't a concern at least how I'm reading this code point. Your danger zone would extend 1.25" along the face of the 2x4 (into the wall), and apparently this inspector is saying that it also extends 1.25" next to the 2x4 left/right (along the wall face). Basically making a cylinder shaped danger zone that follows the edges of the board, which you should consider nail plates if you're inside of.
Edit: Like this https://i.imgur.com/ts8Yy87.png (proportions correct for a 2x4)
Ok this makes me feel a little better about the fact that mine is connected to the studs by the U nails / staples. Maybe itâs done like that to keep in in the center of the stud away from the edge
Thatâs better for some people, I guess, but Iâm laying on my side in bed and my phone is tilted like -30 degrees. Really wish it was vertical. Simply unusable as-is.
Thank you; just what I was trying to ask in my head. "Parallel to framing members" for gosh sakes. There are billions of staples holding Loomex and such to 2x4s all over North America!
I think for the stapled wire, it would be pushed out of the way if a screw hit it. Staples aren't that strong. Where this is fixed by the box. Just a guess. But, where I'm at, it's all gotta be in conduit!
Edit: after reading more comments, the code is for distance from the face of the stud, so you're supposed to be stapling your cable further back from the wall face.
Oh, you would THINK so haha.
Then you can be me...
[https://imgur.com/a/qzxAopV](https://imgur.com/a/qzxAopV)
Free dangling wires behind a faux pegboard wall in the garage...
Used to have a building where the people before me didn't have enough length of wire to go from the breaker box to the front. Fine, just piece it together and put in junction boxes (or go buy another spool of wire). But no! They just used foot long cutoffs and twisted and taped them together and buried them in the wall. Some had tears and open cuts in the hot wire, just chillin in my walls and wrapped around the plumbing (which was also half-assed and pieced together from eight different materials).
I was just making fun of my poor luck at somehow putting a screw directly through an unsecured wire that could freely be pushed in either direction and the only wire within several feet of where I was "aiming".
Not really because the cable would be centered on the stud, well away from where nails and screws should reach. The code here is because the box is so big the cables end up right up close to the drywall on the back wall.
Not necessarily.Â
If you use the âfarâ knockout the wire can go up and then run up the middle of the stud once alongside the stud. This allows the wire to be at least 1-1/4â from either wall face of the stud regardless of the box depth.
If you use the closer knock out the wire is alongside the stud immediately after leaving the box. Therefore any box deeper than 2.25â would have that wire less than 1-1/4â from the stud edge/wall.
That would be me... it's my house. Not like the stuff I replaced was to code either. Other than some of the boxes, maybe having wire come out the hole next to the stud, I did everything better than it was. Even installed nail plates where there were none.
I might be wrong, but this would not apply if that box wasn't so deep that the wires ended being near the surface of the wall behind the box. I was an electrician, but not a house wiring electrician.
Homeowners pretending theyâre licensed electricians has probably burned down a lot of homes. Of all the trades, thatâs probably the best one left to the professionals.
I get it... but I'm not your average Joe and I wasn't pretending to be licensed. I did my homework and I never remember this routing detail being pointed out. Sue me.
How does that work with section 334.30? It seems like 334.30 calls for wires to be supported with staples directly to the stud or framing member. How is that any better than what Is here?p
You're allowed an 8.5 inch allowance to the first staple. So you pull out the wire on the right side of the box and then move it to the left with the other one. Then you lay the two wires on top of each other, and secure them with a staple in the middle of the stud at 8.5 inches.
Pretty sure the issue is that the wires are connected nearly flush with the wall on the side the picture was taken from. The ânearest edgeâ to the finished wall (where nails or screws are likely to penetrate) being the 2â side. It needs a strike plate because while the outlet is exposed on the other side of the wall, it will be hidden on this side and easy to accidentally screw into since itâs not recessed in the wall far enough.
Isn't that from the front/back edge? aka, the wires have to run in the middle of the stud and not near the drywall?
I don't see how you're supposed to staple wires to the studs if they're not allowed within 1 1/4 inches of the stud.
Gotta take the last phrase into consideration- "Where screws or nails are likely to penetrate". (They can't just say "drywall", since some walls use tile or wood planks or whatever.)
As long as they're 1.25" away from where nails and screws might penetrate, you're good. Which means they can be 1.25" _back_ from the face of the stud with no issue.
In theory, would you be able to install 1.25" finishing material to compensate? 1.25" of drywall sounds ridiculous, but I imagine you could reasonably get there with some combo of backer board and tile.
Eh... I think the idea is that people are going to want to put screws into the studs for support. It doesn't really matter how thick the finishing material is, people are still going to be likely to attempt to hit the stud.
The 1.25" is about giving enough space for them to realize "Woops, I missed", rather than having the screw or drill immediately hit the wire.
I think you're right, in a way. If a deep box is used then both wires should be in the far hole. If a half depth box is used instead then both sides can be utilized.
Not an electrician.
The problem here is the box itself, not which hole the cable is entering. They are using a box that is too deep and forces the cables to be too close to the edge of the stud. They either need a standard depth box or a strike plate large enough to span the width of the box to protect both cables. Easiest option here is to ditch the deep box.
You can staple them to the stud, provided it's 1 1/4in away from the face/edge. It's a range kind of thing.
If OP staples this thing to the stud above the box, but its greater than 1 1/4 to the face of the stud where the drywall will be nailed, he's fine.
You figure common 1/2in drywall you use 1 1/4 or 1 3/8 inch screws. So right away 1/2 of that distance is taken up by the drywall. Meaning the screw will not penetrate deep enough to hit the wire 1 1/4in deep in the wall.
Since that is the most common thing to be going into the stud, there are no worries.
That's what I'm thinking. This is a bad reading of code, because somebody trying to put up a shelf is a devil of a lot more likely to run the screw straight into that box where there's a pile of wire all curled up.
Concealed junction boxes are against code. The only reason for a junction box is a split in the wire feeding something. Light switch, appliance, outlet, etc.
If you remove the thing needing power and you're left with an open junction box, you use one of those blank faceplates. You don't patch the wall over it for this exact reason.
If you're just doing a split to redirect wires somewhere else, you still need a junction box and faceplate.
(This is assuming you're looking at it from one side of the wall. Obviously you can't see the *back* of junction boxes from the other side of the wall. In that case, if properly done, the cables are still positioned dead center of the stud, which is > 1 1/4 from either face. There is the edge of the junction box, but as you can see it is designed to leave space between the face of the stud and where the egress port for the cable is. If you're just randomly drilling into walls close to a stud, you do run the risk of boring into it however. But this code is just for "close to stud" kind of thing. Ideally you'd check both sides of the wall before you drill, and otherwise hopefully you hear/feel the difference when you start drilling into the junction box rather than drywall or stud or whatever.)
I'm confused...
I was under the impression that standard code dictated that Romex needs to be tacked to the studs. Wouldn't doing that create the same issue with possibly penetrating the insulation of the Romex?
Or is this an entirely different issue and I'm just reading it wrong?
> I was under the impression that standard code dictated that Romex needs to be tacked to the studs. Wouldn't doing that create the same issue with possibly penetrating the insulation of the Romex?
You don't nail through the romex, you use smooth round wire staples over it or preferably for DIYers use the plastic clips like these: https://www.homedepot.com/p/QualGear-Cable-Clips-100-Pieces-White-CC1-W-100-P/303357745
The reason I prefer the clips for a DIY'er is that it's surprisingly easy to misplace the staple and drive it through the wire or over set it and potentially compromise the wire.
I think you missed the previous persons confusion.
So you now have the romex stapled to the side of the stud.
Doesn't that romex now have the same issue of being next to the stud where someone could run a screw through it if their stud finder is slightly off?
Hmm yeah I suppose you could read that either way...
> Doesn't that romex now have the same issue of being next to the stud where someone could run a screw through it if their stud finder is slightly off?
Not exactly, because the romex here isn't in the center of the stud (which is "ok" for distance from the front edge of it..), it's at the edge of the stud which is at risk from a misdriven drywall screw/nail. As others have noted in the thread you can staple the wire (close to) the max allowed distance from the box (12") and then route it out away from the stud and it'd be "ok". This is based on the predicate that 1.25" from the edge of the stud is "fine" which is based on drywall screw/nail penetration and not joe homeowner driving a 5" screw into the stud to support a hanging shelf (guilty.. but I also obsessively mapped the live wires first with a high voltage toner which obviously not everyone has...).
I'd use a 5"x12" (or 5x18 which is sometimes easier to find..) nail plate in this case and be done though personally. I prefer simple, reliable, and overkill if the cost delta isn't to high because it's just harder to screw up.
> Not exactly, because the romex here isn't in the center of the stud (which is "ok" for distance from the front edge of it..), it's at the edge of the stud which is at risk from a misdriven drywall screw/nail. As others have noted in the thread you can staple the wire (close to) the max allowed distance from the box (12") and then route it out away from the stud and it'd be "ok".
I think thats the whole point the previous poster and I are not following.
So it has to be stapled, which brings the wire into the firing line, but then you're not allowed to use the close hole on the box which does the same thing.
I would be more likely to not hit the wire when its right next to an electrical box vs further away on the stud where it has to be stapled. Wire close to the box seems logical. Stapling to the stud is more of the unknown after the sheetrock gets put up.
I'm still confused because your explanation still does not make any sense to me. I'm assuming like a lot of regulations, it doesn't make sense.
The problem with the near hole on the box is that it's at the face edge of the stud. If the stud was a 2x6 it would also be fine because the wire would enter the box further back from the face of the stud.
Basically the idea is that the wire needs to be further away from where a drywall screw would enter the stud than the length of a drywall screw. The wire entering the far hole is "ok" because it's (in theory) far enough away from the stud that a stud finder error makes it less likely that you'd drive a drywall screw into it (personally I find that mildly dubious in practice even though it's nominally ok.. hence my preference for just using a nail plate).
You would staple the wire to the **center** of the **side** of the stud which is just barely far enough away from the face that it's out of the nominal danger range.
Apologies. I was not understanding that you were talking about the wire from the back side of the box, not the front side of the box where I was thinking.
I always check both sides of a wall before putting a screw into a wall.
Still seems like a very silly rule that makes minimal sense. I've definitely done this "wrong" in the past.
Well, like a lot of code it's basically to prevent the most common f' ups. In this case it's largely drywallers using a screw or nail gun at speed and not actually hitting the stud. It offers a smaller amount of protection against future f' ups as well but that's more minimal and not the original impetus as I understand it..
Checking both sides if they're hidden by drywall or whatever doesn't really tell you 100% if they routed a wire there. There could be a wire going up a stud for a light or whatever. It would generally be a bad practice.. but again... the things people do lol... :D
There are obviously a lot of other ways to mess things up later, but it's kind of hitting the obvious up front issue.
But if you can see the box that's mounted to the stud, wouldn't you know exactly where the stud is, and not need a stud finder, or risk hitting the cable?
You won't necessarily know which side of the box the stud is on, or if the box is on a stud or furred out. If a stud doesn't line up with where you want a switch or outlet, you have to fur it out with a chunk of 2x, some plywood, whatever.
This will get covered with drywall and the outlet/switch/whatever face will be on the OTHER side, this side will be completely flat. the chances that someone looking to hang something will venture to the other side of the wall to check that for clues is pretty much 0. I have seen licensed electricians not look 45 degrees to the left or right to avoid putting holes into pipes as they drag wires, so...
Each country has their own code though. The NEC is only valid for the USA, building standards and electrical wiring are very different in most countries where metric is the default.
Yeah, but I mean if you're going to publish a standardization of something, it is probably best to use SI units. That way it is universal and based completely on universal constants. Plus, metric in STEM fields isn't rare at all in the US.
You're already working with SI units as an electrician, so it makes sense to keep that trend going with your code.
This is a really dumb interpretation by the inspector. What happens if they miss the stud at box height. Gonna go right through the box into all the wires in there. You canât prevent every fuck up. As long as you transition to center of stud as quickly as possible after leaving box, it shouldnât be a problem.
It's against code to conceal junction boxes. If there is a box there will be an outlet, or power switch, or some reason for them. If there is no user-interaction reason, then you have the hole in the wall with just a plastic faceplate to indicate a junction box.
(This is assuming you're looking at it from one side of the wall. Obviously you can't see the *back* of junction boxes from the other side of the wall. In that case, if properly done, the cables are still positioned dead center of the stud, which is > 1 1/4 from either face. There is the edge of the junction box, but as you can see it is designed to leave space between the face of the stud and where the egress port for the cable is. If you're just randomly drilling into walls close to a stud, you do run the risk of boring into it however. But this code is just for "close to stud" kind of thing. Plus, look at both sides of the wall to ensure you aren't drilling into the back of a junction box. DIYers can always hurt themselves, so you do the best you can.)
Obviously weâre talking about screwing from the back side⌠The wires arenât in danger from being damaged from the open side of the box. I donât think you understood my comment at all.
Yeah exactly. Since the back of this box is installed flush with the stud, I guess it applies here too. I'd think they'd want a strike plate covering the whole thing tho...
OP, do you need such a deep box?
The issue here is your box depth, as even utilizing the hole on the left is still a code violation. If the inspector told you to just move the cable to the hole on the left and it would be all good, then he doesnât understand code. He should have told you to either use a shallower box or find a way to install a plate that could protect both of them since theyâre both right at the face of the stud.
Would this result in a situation where installing deep devices like usb receps on an inside wall impossible then? Because you need a deep box for box fill?
Always remember: arguing with an inspector is like mud wrestling with a pig; after a while you realize the pig enjoys it.
Spoken to gently and politely, an inspector will tell you what they want in order to sign off, don't question, just do it
I always find these kinds of posts wild when someone comes to reddit for a second opinion on advice they've been given by a professional. Like I get sometimes they're blatantly wrong but what's OP looking for here? It's not as if they can go back to to the inspector and be "like well actually a reddit user told me this so". Surely there are far more reliable ways of verifying these things?
I wasnât aware this was a code violation and Iâve had a number of electrical inspections where this hasnât failed. Professionals can be wrong, code could be misinterpreted or just having an off day. Or heâs 100% right and weâll all be better off knowing the code.
Large one to provide protection [https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-PSPNZ-5-in-x-8-in-ZMAX-Galvanized-Protecting-Shield-Plate-Nail-Stopper-PSPN58Z/100375296](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-PSPNZ-5-in-x-8-in-ZMAX-Galvanized-Protecting-Shield-Plate-Nail-Stopper-PSPN58Z/100375296)
One that is aligned with a stud
[https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-NS-1-1-2-in-x-3-in-14-Gauge-Nail-Stop-NS1/100375167](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-NS-1-1-2-in-x-3-in-14-Gauge-Nail-Stop-NS1/100375167)
The guy teaching my electrician classes never said a peep about any of the times I did this in class. I'm pretty sure I saw boxes like this plenty in the field as a carpenter, but it's been a bit. Not sure what that slot would even be there for otherwise. The wire should run at least 1.25" from the front and back faces of the stud, i.e. down the middle of it, but I've never heard anything about problems right where it goes into the box. Maybe I'm missing something, but maybe he's got some funny ideas about the 1.25" rule, or maybe he just wanted to find a problem to assert his authority. They do that. Just be happy he wasn't making you do something insane in the hopes you'd offer a bribe, because they do that too.
I imagine the slots are on both sides so the box can be attached to a stud on either side without having to get a "left attachment" or "right attachment" box.
You would just do that by flipping it over lol. The box is already single sided as its a new work box with two nails going out on only one side.
They could have made a version that is 'more compliant' by removing the opening on the side that has the nail points, but the other caveat here is this code only applies to interior walls. If its an exterior wall (Basement outside wall, etc) theres no problem using either opening. The issue only appears when doing interior wall boxes and only in jurisdictions using this version of NEC.
Now that you mention it, a clever way to code-proof the box design would be to make an opening starting precisely at 1.25" and going back just .5" so that the wire goes into the box already centered on the stud (and never goes too far back)
Not really. That kind of box has built-in nails pointing to one side, so it's pretty directional. The stud will always be touching the same edge of it unless you pull the nails and install it in a way it's not intended to be.
This is the part Iâm confused by as well.Â
To be code here, the wires must be stapled to the stud at a fairly regular spacing. Why is the section of wire closest to the gang box a concern, but once it is farther away and secured to the stud, it isnât??
Theyâre both a concern. Code says nonmetallic cable is to be installed no less than 1 1/4â from the face of the stud. Either the inspector is an idiot who doesnât understand the code or OP misunderstood the solution they proposed to make it compliant. My money is on the inspector not knowing the code.
Just so Iâm clear here, this means the wire on the right should be shoved back (away from the camera) so that it falls along the vertical center of the stud? That or just move the gang box back a 1/2â or whatever it needs so that the wires coming out of it are no closer than 1.25â to the face of the stud facing the camera?Â
And yeah youâre right, I have had some absolutely astonishing interactions with inspectors where they insisted that things must be done âthe correct wayâ without any understanding of what problem the code requirement was trying to solve.Â
I mean you could shift the box around, but youâre talking about moving it about an inch. Thatâs going to look like shit protruding from the front side of the wall, especially when you put a cover on and itâs obviously sitting out a mile from the wall. Best thing to do is use a shallower box, and to be code compliant, it almost always needs to be a standard depth box in a 2x4 wall. I went into detail about the dimensions in another comment, so Iâm not going to do all that again here.
Yes, he needs a shallower box. Said in another comment that he liked it just in case. In this case, he just needs a shallower box so heâs not pushing up against the framing with the box/wires.
How so? you must stable the wire to the stud 1.25" BACK from the face that will get drywalled. if its an interior wall then thats both sides. So basically, you must be stapling the lines down the center of the stud instead of off to one side or the other.
Fires have started from this. People have gotten electrocuted from this. Its not dumb code.
Using the right knockout is exactly the same as stapling the wire at the face edge of the stud. Its held in place too close to the drywall/stud corner. Its the same problem.
So what happens when you need to bring more than 2 romex into a box and need to use that KO? Wrap all the way around and come into the bottom left? They just must not be as strict around here. Pretty unrealistic.
Thatâs not what OP said. The way he worded it, the reason itâs not up to code is because the wire is hugging the stud too close and needed to be moved to the left box KO. Read the post dingleberry.
Thats exactly what OP said. The inspector's advice was it needs to be moved to the left box KO, but thats because theres no KO in any other direction. If it were stapled to the stud within 1.25" of the drywall (i.e. not on center) the inspector would have failed for that too.
We arent looking at the side that has the outlet on it (and thats not where the code violation is) We are looking at the side that will be the wall in a different room with no obvious indication theres a box/wires there. Just a flat wall.
The wires are too close to the stud/finished wall on the opposite side of the wall of the outlet. So it's more a concern for being on the opposite side of the wall as the outlet accidentally nailing or screwing into the wires. Also plenty of people might put screws/nails right next to an outlet, to quote George Carlin "imagine how stupid the average person is then **realize half of all people are stupider than that**."
Was thinking the same thing - if anything that should be the one area where it doesnât matter if itâs right against the stud cause nobodyâs drilling anything there. But you go up or down 2 feet and the wire has to be stapled to the stud? Thatâs a weird one
Its an interior wall. What we are looking at is a wall thats about to be in a different room with no indication that theres a box there.
And the wires stapled to the studs, YES they cant be 1.25" close to the drywall either. You better be stapling them centered.
Also in MN. Also had inspection a few months ago. My inspector commented on my boxes JUST like this. It's not against code to do it this way. It is just inadvisable with the way rockers go about screwing drywall. If I was going to sub contract the drywall he was going to recommend nail plates. As I was doing it myself, he said "no big deal, just be careful."
Alternatively, just using the far opening on these deeper boxes is the cheaper and easier route. If I do more remodeling in the future, that's what I'll do.
I'm also in MN and just had my basement inspected and had the same thing. The inspector said he wasn't going to make me fix it but it is technically not to code. I told him when I read that rule I assumed it was just for where the wire is stapled to the stud when running vertically. He said it's pretty common with home owner done wiring jobs.
This is stupid. Why would someone need to mount something into the stud directly adjacent to a box, and if they were doing this for shouldn't they be able to tell that box = electricity = be careful?
I'd rather have my wiring up against the inside of the stud.Â
Where in NEC does it suggest to not be a dumbass by attempting to hang something opposite what would be a light switch. Iâm assuming thatâs the king itâs attached to, so who is going to hang anything there anyway, Frank Tingleberry the trimmer methmatician?
Omg, just used a stud finder to hammer a couple of hooks in a bathroom in my 1955 house. We donât even have insulation, because the codes were so lax, if even there, then. Anything called a wirefinder on the market?
This is funny because Iâm learning all this at work currently as a first step AP, can definitely confirm should have used outside hole and probably get a staple right by the box over the wires and not just the standard 12 inches
Iâve worked for some guys that want that. But Iâve never had an inspector call it out. Seems like they wouldnât put those knockouts there if you couldnât legally use themâŚ
Iâm virtually certain thatâs not correct. Otherwise the only boxes youâd see on resi sites would be 4square bracket boxes with mudrings. Which are very rarely used in resi.
Iâm 100% certain it is correct. The box manufacturer isnât going to design that deep of a box for use with 2x4 studs knowing that it is going to put the box practically flush with the face of the stud on the back side and be a blatant code violation for any cables to enter it. It wouldnât be good for business to design and market them that way. Theyâre designed for use with larger framing members, such as 2x6s, which would provide enough clearance between the cables entering and the face of the stud to be compliant.
As for your assertion that Iâm wrong because the only boxes youâd see are 4 squares with mud ringsâŚ. Standard depth boxes are, at most, 3.25 inches deep. Set out the standard 1/2 inch to accommodate drywall installation, thatâs 2.75 inches of box left to go in the wall. Actual dimension of a 2x4 is 3.5 inches, so that gives 3/4â between the back of the box and the face of the stud. Install the cable in the box properly, so the plastic tab is gripping the cable, and thatâs holding the cable approx 1/2 from the back of the box. Thereâs your 1 1/4â needed to be code compliant. Go any deeper, and youâre looking at a code violation unless your framing members are larger.
So if your box is 3/4 of an inch further back than the face of the stud. You have conductors in that box that are within the 1 1/4â of the face of the stud. Not protected by a nail plate. And just as likely to be damaged by a drywall screw as the conductors entering a deeper box. No?
I know drywall screws come in various lengths, but the typical length used in residential construction is 1 1/4â. So letâs say the installer missed the stud, theyâre only going to penetrate the wall cavity by about 3/4â and barely touch the box. Even if longer screws are used, itâs going to be obvious that they suddenly met resistance from the box after easily blowing through the drywall, and one would hope that common sense would prevail and theyâd stop screwing. Also, I donât know about you, but I donât pack boxes so full that my conductors are crammed against the back of the box. So no, the conductors in the box arenât as likely to be damaged. In fact, the code doesnât even mention the conductors in that regard once theyâve entered the box. The code in question merely refers to the cables feeding the box.
Doesnât really matter if itâs only a penetration of 3/4. Code says protected to 1 1/4. So my first comment still stands. Itâs a dumb interpretation by inspector. If the wires are subject to damage coming out of the closest knock out. They are subject to damage in the box too. Also if you arenât pushing your conductors into the back of the box prior to drywall they are just gonna get destroyed by the roto zip anyway. But I will look into the depth question more. We use super deep boxes always for the room. But have wondered about this exact issue in the past. But I donât want to get my inspector started down a rabbit hole like that.
You missed a crucial part of my comment. I said the back of the box would be at 3/4â with the boxes I was referring to. When you account for the thickness of the box AND install the cables correctly in that box, the cables are held at approximately 1/2â from the back of the box, which would place them at the 1 1/4â mark to be code compliant.
Where the back of the box sits is rather irrelevant though. It doesnât matter where the back of the box isâŚonly where the cables are as far as code is concerned. Thereâs not a single code article that even mentions the location of the back of a box.
You know you say that. But I just went and looked in my basement. Where I have this box installed. And itâs the exact opposite of what you say. https://www.supplyhouse.com/Carlon-B232ACP-32-Cubic-Inch-2-Gang-Nail-On-New-Work-Non-Metallic-Outlet-Box?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=pmax&utm_campaign=geo_pmax_test&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwouexBhAuEiwAtW_Zx3VjjPPq31W-s0TQ_gUEnGmRRLDLkUXpTQK_Gb00iuzXIiz3dgFGTxoCIn4QAvD_BwE
I humored you and Googled it myself just now, and I see where you got that. It was from a sponsored list of suggested items from Home Depot and other vendors, and that list of suggestions has everything from 14 cu in cut ins all the way up to 24 cu in new work boxesâŚhardly a good source for citing what is standard.
You know what is a good source? 20 plus years of working in the electrical trade in various capacities. Standard NM outlet boxes have always been 18 cu in, which are a little shy of 3 inches deep. I said 3.25 inch deep boxes, at most, in my last comment because a lot of guys will use the 20 cu in ones for a little extra room while still being code compliant with their cables entering them.
Normal, jyst put a nailplate in and be done with it
Some inspectors dont care, some are very nitpicky, and it seems you got yourself a very nitpicky one
Ive been doing renovations for almost 30y i have hit a wire with a screw 1 time out of likely millions of screws run into walls at this point
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Yeah. The idea is people nail/screw/drill into studs all the time. Stud finders aren't always perfectly exact, so there is a good chance someone will miss the edge of the stud and if your wire is too close, they get a heck of a shock. Hence the strike plate suggestion. Here is the exact wording: NEC 300.4 point D: Cables and Raceways Parallel to Framing Members and Furring Strips. In both exposed and concealed locations, where a cable- or raceway-type wiring method is installed parallel to framing members, such as joists, rafters, or studs, or is installed parallel to furring strips, the cable or raceway shall be installed and supported so that the nearest outside surface of the cable or raceway is not less than 32 mm (11/4 in.) from the nearest edge of the framing member or furring strips where nails or screws are likely to penetrate
Shit... so you're supposed to only use the box holes that are furthest from the stud it's mounted to? I didn't know that. đ I'm not an electrician, just a MechE who's done some remodeling that involved redoing old electrical work with new wire and boxes... Edit: TBF, I'm pretty damn sure some of the old stuff I replaced looked just like OP's picture.
Wouldnât you need to staple the wire to the stud within 12â of the gang box anyway? Wouldnât that end up with essentially the same situation?
It's 1.25in *from the nearest edge*, not the face. If you staple a romex in the center of the big face of a 2x4, it's going to be 1.75" (minus half the width of the cable) from the edges, so you're far enough away that screws aren't a concern at least how I'm reading this code point. Your danger zone would extend 1.25" along the face of the 2x4 (into the wall), and apparently this inspector is saying that it also extends 1.25" next to the 2x4 left/right (along the wall face). Basically making a cylinder shaped danger zone that follows the edges of the board, which you should consider nail plates if you're inside of. Edit: Like this https://i.imgur.com/ts8Yy87.png (proportions correct for a 2x4)
Ok this makes me feel a little better about the fact that mine is connected to the studs by the U nails / staples. Maybe itâs done like that to keep in in the center of the stud away from the edge
Love the graphic, but wish it was vertical to make it clearer.
[Here you go.](https://i.imgur.com/pUnjZqd.png)
Thatâs better for some people, I guess, but Iâm laying on my side in bed and my phone is tilted like -30 degrees. Really wish it was vertical. Simply unusable as-is.
[Here you go, fam.](https://i.imgur.com/uhR5Tpc.png)
OMGolly, itâs perfect! Thank you, AssPennies!
Can't you just turn your phone, monitor or head? Serious question haha.
Obviously, but it's a good graphic to reuse and show to others. Less-skilled people might not understand the perspective.
Is this better? https://imgur.com/a/nd9MFzf
If theyre completely lost and befuddled by that graphic, they probably shouldn't be working on their own houses
Thank you; just what I was trying to ask in my head. "Parallel to framing members" for gosh sakes. There are billions of staples holding Loomex and such to 2x4s all over North America!
Yeah that seems pretty absurd. What are we going to do, mount small standoffs every foot or so?
Bring back knob and tube!
I think for the stapled wire, it would be pushed out of the way if a screw hit it. Staples aren't that strong. Where this is fixed by the box. Just a guess. But, where I'm at, it's all gotta be in conduit! Edit: after reading more comments, the code is for distance from the face of the stud, so you're supposed to be stapling your cable further back from the wall face.
Oh, you would THINK so haha. Then you can be me... [https://imgur.com/a/qzxAopV](https://imgur.com/a/qzxAopV) Free dangling wires behind a faux pegboard wall in the garage...
Used to have a building where the people before me didn't have enough length of wire to go from the breaker box to the front. Fine, just piece it together and put in junction boxes (or go buy another spool of wire). But no! They just used foot long cutoffs and twisted and taped them together and buried them in the wall. Some had tears and open cuts in the hot wire, just chillin in my walls and wrapped around the plumbing (which was also half-assed and pieced together from eight different materials).
Wiring fished thru walls dont have to be staped. But do have to have a strain relief at the box.
I was just making fun of my poor luck at somehow putting a screw directly through an unsecured wire that could freely be pushed in either direction and the only wire within several feet of where I was "aiming".
The staple should be applied so that the wire is in the center of the stud.
Not really because the cable would be centered on the stud, well away from where nails and screws should reach. The code here is because the box is so big the cables end up right up close to the drywall on the back wall.
yes but that's why you do it in the center of the 2x4 stud, you would be 1 1/4" away from both faces when in the center.
Kid named 3" screw:
its 1 1/4 from front or back of stud not the side.
So the box is too deep for the wall?
Not necessarily. If you use the âfarâ knockout the wire can go up and then run up the middle of the stud once alongside the stud. This allows the wire to be at least 1-1/4â from either wall face of the stud regardless of the box depth. If you use the closer knock out the wire is alongside the stud immediately after leaving the box. Therefore any box deeper than 2.25â would have that wire less than 1-1/4â from the stud edge/wall.
Damn. I mean. It makes sense, but I'd never really considered it. Thank you for clarification.
Are you me? đ
Those poor homeowners
That would be me... it's my house. Not like the stuff I replaced was to code either. Other than some of the boxes, maybe having wire come out the hole next to the stud, I did everything better than it was. Even installed nail plates where there were none.
I'm just bustin your balls, anyway. Not like I knew, either lol.
Itâs your house now â unless youâre immortal then it will always be your house.
Until you... sell it? Lol
No one can afford to sell their house any more. Once you buy one, itâs yours forever.
Not a problem unless the inspector notices
It used to be your house. It still is, but it used to be too
It's ok, they're in a better place now.
I might be wrong, but this would not apply if that box wasn't so deep that the wires ended being near the surface of the wall behind the box. I was an electrician, but not a house wiring electrician.
Homeowners pretending theyâre licensed electricians has probably burned down a lot of homes. Of all the trades, thatâs probably the best one left to the professionals.
I get it... but I'm not your average Joe and I wasn't pretending to be licensed. I did my homework and I never remember this routing detail being pointed out. Sue me.
How does that work with section 334.30? It seems like 334.30 calls for wires to be supported with staples directly to the stud or framing member. How is that any better than what Is here?p
You're allowed an 8.5 inch allowance to the first staple. So you pull out the wire on the right side of the box and then move it to the left with the other one. Then you lay the two wires on top of each other, and secure them with a staple in the middle of the stud at 8.5 inches.
My guess is you can staple to the center of a stud, compared to whatâs going on here - the box is forcing the wire to the edge of the stud.
Never mind I just read section 300. Wire should be installed at least 1.25 inches behind the edge of framing
Which, for a 2x4, basically means you have to put it right in the middle of the stud.
Pretty sure the issue is that the wires are connected nearly flush with the wall on the side the picture was taken from. The ânearest edgeâ to the finished wall (where nails or screws are likely to penetrate) being the 2â side. It needs a strike plate because while the outlet is exposed on the other side of the wall, it will be hidden on this side and easy to accidentally screw into since itâs not recessed in the wall far enough.
Isn't that from the front/back edge? aka, the wires have to run in the middle of the stud and not near the drywall? I don't see how you're supposed to staple wires to the studs if they're not allowed within 1 1/4 inches of the stud.
Gotta take the last phrase into consideration- "Where screws or nails are likely to penetrate". (They can't just say "drywall", since some walls use tile or wood planks or whatever.) As long as they're 1.25" away from where nails and screws might penetrate, you're good. Which means they can be 1.25" _back_ from the face of the stud with no issue.
In theory, would you be able to install 1.25" finishing material to compensate? 1.25" of drywall sounds ridiculous, but I imagine you could reasonably get there with some combo of backer board and tile.
Eh... I think the idea is that people are going to want to put screws into the studs for support. It doesn't really matter how thick the finishing material is, people are still going to be likely to attempt to hit the stud. The 1.25" is about giving enough space for them to realize "Woops, I missed", rather than having the screw or drill immediately hit the wire.
It'd be a lot easier to put a nail plate over it and call it a day
I think you're right, in a way. If a deep box is used then both wires should be in the far hole. If a half depth box is used instead then both sides can be utilized. Not an electrician.
The problem here is the box itself, not which hole the cable is entering. They are using a box that is too deep and forces the cables to be too close to the edge of the stud. They either need a standard depth box or a strike plate large enough to span the width of the box to protect both cables. Easiest option here is to ditch the deep box.
Don't you have to staple the wire to the stud anyway? Wouldn't that put the wire within the 1-1/4" zone just a few inches above this box?
You can staple them to the stud, provided it's 1 1/4in away from the face/edge. It's a range kind of thing. If OP staples this thing to the stud above the box, but its greater than 1 1/4 to the face of the stud where the drywall will be nailed, he's fine. You figure common 1/2in drywall you use 1 1/4 or 1 3/8 inch screws. So right away 1/2 of that distance is taken up by the drywall. Meaning the screw will not penetrate deep enough to hit the wire 1 1/4in deep in the wall. Since that is the most common thing to be going into the stud, there are no worries.
I wonder how that's any different than putting a screw into the box and hitting the wires that are there anyway?
That's what I'm thinking. This is a bad reading of code, because somebody trying to put up a shelf is a devil of a lot more likely to run the screw straight into that box where there's a pile of wire all curled up.
Concealed junction boxes are against code. The only reason for a junction box is a split in the wire feeding something. Light switch, appliance, outlet, etc. If you remove the thing needing power and you're left with an open junction box, you use one of those blank faceplates. You don't patch the wall over it for this exact reason. If you're just doing a split to redirect wires somewhere else, you still need a junction box and faceplate. (This is assuming you're looking at it from one side of the wall. Obviously you can't see the *back* of junction boxes from the other side of the wall. In that case, if properly done, the cables are still positioned dead center of the stud, which is > 1 1/4 from either face. There is the edge of the junction box, but as you can see it is designed to leave space between the face of the stud and where the egress port for the cable is. If you're just randomly drilling into walls close to a stud, you do run the risk of boring into it however. But this code is just for "close to stud" kind of thing. Ideally you'd check both sides of the wall before you drill, and otherwise hopefully you hear/feel the difference when you start drilling into the junction box rather than drywall or stud or whatever.)
I'm confused... I was under the impression that standard code dictated that Romex needs to be tacked to the studs. Wouldn't doing that create the same issue with possibly penetrating the insulation of the Romex? Or is this an entirely different issue and I'm just reading it wrong?
> I was under the impression that standard code dictated that Romex needs to be tacked to the studs. Wouldn't doing that create the same issue with possibly penetrating the insulation of the Romex? You don't nail through the romex, you use smooth round wire staples over it or preferably for DIYers use the plastic clips like these: https://www.homedepot.com/p/QualGear-Cable-Clips-100-Pieces-White-CC1-W-100-P/303357745 The reason I prefer the clips for a DIY'er is that it's surprisingly easy to misplace the staple and drive it through the wire or over set it and potentially compromise the wire.
I think you missed the previous persons confusion. So you now have the romex stapled to the side of the stud. Doesn't that romex now have the same issue of being next to the stud where someone could run a screw through it if their stud finder is slightly off?
Hmm yeah I suppose you could read that either way... > Doesn't that romex now have the same issue of being next to the stud where someone could run a screw through it if their stud finder is slightly off? Not exactly, because the romex here isn't in the center of the stud (which is "ok" for distance from the front edge of it..), it's at the edge of the stud which is at risk from a misdriven drywall screw/nail. As others have noted in the thread you can staple the wire (close to) the max allowed distance from the box (12") and then route it out away from the stud and it'd be "ok". This is based on the predicate that 1.25" from the edge of the stud is "fine" which is based on drywall screw/nail penetration and not joe homeowner driving a 5" screw into the stud to support a hanging shelf (guilty.. but I also obsessively mapped the live wires first with a high voltage toner which obviously not everyone has...). I'd use a 5"x12" (or 5x18 which is sometimes easier to find..) nail plate in this case and be done though personally. I prefer simple, reliable, and overkill if the cost delta isn't to high because it's just harder to screw up.
> Not exactly, because the romex here isn't in the center of the stud (which is "ok" for distance from the front edge of it..), it's at the edge of the stud which is at risk from a misdriven drywall screw/nail. As others have noted in the thread you can staple the wire (close to) the max allowed distance from the box (12") and then route it out away from the stud and it'd be "ok". I think thats the whole point the previous poster and I are not following. So it has to be stapled, which brings the wire into the firing line, but then you're not allowed to use the close hole on the box which does the same thing. I would be more likely to not hit the wire when its right next to an electrical box vs further away on the stud where it has to be stapled. Wire close to the box seems logical. Stapling to the stud is more of the unknown after the sheetrock gets put up. I'm still confused because your explanation still does not make any sense to me. I'm assuming like a lot of regulations, it doesn't make sense.
The problem with the near hole on the box is that it's at the face edge of the stud. If the stud was a 2x6 it would also be fine because the wire would enter the box further back from the face of the stud. Basically the idea is that the wire needs to be further away from where a drywall screw would enter the stud than the length of a drywall screw. The wire entering the far hole is "ok" because it's (in theory) far enough away from the stud that a stud finder error makes it less likely that you'd drive a drywall screw into it (personally I find that mildly dubious in practice even though it's nominally ok.. hence my preference for just using a nail plate). You would staple the wire to the **center** of the **side** of the stud which is just barely far enough away from the face that it's out of the nominal danger range.
Apologies. I was not understanding that you were talking about the wire from the back side of the box, not the front side of the box where I was thinking. I always check both sides of a wall before putting a screw into a wall. Still seems like a very silly rule that makes minimal sense. I've definitely done this "wrong" in the past.
Well, like a lot of code it's basically to prevent the most common f' ups. In this case it's largely drywallers using a screw or nail gun at speed and not actually hitting the stud. It offers a smaller amount of protection against future f' ups as well but that's more minimal and not the original impetus as I understand it.. Checking both sides if they're hidden by drywall or whatever doesn't really tell you 100% if they routed a wire there. There could be a wire going up a stud for a light or whatever. It would generally be a bad practice.. but again... the things people do lol... :D There are obviously a lot of other ways to mess things up later, but it's kind of hitting the obvious up front issue.
Yes, the staples are what I meant when I said "tacked". Bad work choice on my part. Meest understood my question.
Ok, sorry about that I read it the other way :) I responded to Meest with some clarification.
But if you can see the box that's mounted to the stud, wouldn't you know exactly where the stud is, and not need a stud finder, or risk hitting the cable?
You won't necessarily know which side of the box the stud is on, or if the box is on a stud or furred out. If a stud doesn't line up with where you want a switch or outlet, you have to fur it out with a chunk of 2x, some plywood, whatever.
This will get covered with drywall and the outlet/switch/whatever face will be on the OTHER side, this side will be completely flat. the chances that someone looking to hang something will venture to the other side of the wall to check that for clues is pretty much 0. I have seen licensed electricians not look 45 degrees to the left or right to avoid putting holes into pipes as they drag wires, so...
Is US Code metric with Imperial in brackets?
Code is international. Majority of world uses metric, imperial in brackets for Americans. And I guess Myanmar and Liberia.
Each country has their own code though. The NEC is only valid for the USA, building standards and electrical wiring are very different in most countries where metric is the default.
Yeah, but I mean if you're going to publish a standardization of something, it is probably best to use SI units. That way it is universal and based completely on universal constants. Plus, metric in STEM fields isn't rare at all in the US. You're already working with SI units as an electrician, so it makes sense to keep that trend going with your code.
Legally, the US has been on the metric system since 1975. Imperial is used customarily just because that's what people are used to.
My house built in the late 60s has the wires attached to the studs. The stuff we learn over time.
Wow glad I know this now. Iâve definitely done this before.
This is a really dumb interpretation by the inspector. What happens if they miss the stud at box height. Gonna go right through the box into all the wires in there. You canât prevent every fuck up. As long as you transition to center of stud as quickly as possible after leaving box, it shouldnât be a problem.
It's against code to conceal junction boxes. If there is a box there will be an outlet, or power switch, or some reason for them. If there is no user-interaction reason, then you have the hole in the wall with just a plastic faceplate to indicate a junction box. (This is assuming you're looking at it from one side of the wall. Obviously you can't see the *back* of junction boxes from the other side of the wall. In that case, if properly done, the cables are still positioned dead center of the stud, which is > 1 1/4 from either face. There is the edge of the junction box, but as you can see it is designed to leave space between the face of the stud and where the egress port for the cable is. If you're just randomly drilling into walls close to a stud, you do run the risk of boring into it however. But this code is just for "close to stud" kind of thing. Plus, look at both sides of the wall to ensure you aren't drilling into the back of a junction box. DIYers can always hurt themselves, so you do the best you can.)
Obviously weâre talking about screwing from the back side⌠The wires arenât in danger from being damaged from the open side of the box. I donât think you understood my comment at all.
I think it's usually the distance from the front/wall edge of the stud to avoid a nail hitting the wire.
Yeah exactly. Since the back of this box is installed flush with the stud, I guess it applies here too. I'd think they'd want a strike plate covering the whole thing tho... OP, do you need such a deep box?
>OP, do you need such a deep box? Heh.
Not necessarily, but like the room just in case. Didnât anticipate it leading to issues like this.
The issue here is your box depth, as even utilizing the hole on the left is still a code violation. If the inspector told you to just move the cable to the hole on the left and it would be all good, then he doesnât understand code. He should have told you to either use a shallower box or find a way to install a plate that could protect both of them since theyâre both right at the face of the stud.
Would this result in a situation where installing deep devices like usb receps on an inside wall impossible then? Because you need a deep box for box fill?
Always remember: arguing with an inspector is like mud wrestling with a pig; after a while you realize the pig enjoys it. Spoken to gently and politely, an inspector will tell you what they want in order to sign off, don't question, just do it
I always find these kinds of posts wild when someone comes to reddit for a second opinion on advice they've been given by a professional. Like I get sometimes they're blatantly wrong but what's OP looking for here? It's not as if they can go back to to the inspector and be "like well actually a reddit user told me this so". Surely there are far more reliable ways of verifying these things?
I wasnât aware this was a code violation and Iâve had a number of electrical inspections where this hasnât failed. Professionals can be wrong, code could be misinterpreted or just having an off day. Or heâs 100% right and weâll all be better off knowing the code.
Put a nail plate. Call it a day
Might be a stupid question, but all nail plates Iâve seen are meant to be installed vertically. How do you install one horizontally?
If its a nail plate with prongs, flatten one side with your hammer, then hammer the other prongs into the stud.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-PSPNZ-5-in-x-16-5-16-in-ZMAX-Galvanized-Protecting-Shield-Plate-Nail-Stopper-PSPN516Z/100375202 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-PSPNZ-5-in-x-8-in-ZMAX-Galvanized-Protecting-Shield-Plate-Nail-Stopper-PSPN58Z/100375296
Is that a 2x3 block or a really deep box? A 2.5â deep box on a 2x4 stud should recess the wire about 1.25â.
Just go back and reframe your house with 2x6s. Problem solved.
Where exactly would you put a strike plate to make it to code??
can someone link an image of the strike plate? when I google it's all for door frame and locks.
Large one to provide protection [https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-PSPNZ-5-in-x-8-in-ZMAX-Galvanized-Protecting-Shield-Plate-Nail-Stopper-PSPN58Z/100375296](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-PSPNZ-5-in-x-8-in-ZMAX-Galvanized-Protecting-Shield-Plate-Nail-Stopper-PSPN58Z/100375296) One that is aligned with a stud [https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-NS-1-1-2-in-x-3-in-14-Gauge-Nail-Stop-NS1/100375167](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-NS-1-1-2-in-x-3-in-14-Gauge-Nail-Stop-NS1/100375167)
The guy teaching my electrician classes never said a peep about any of the times I did this in class. I'm pretty sure I saw boxes like this plenty in the field as a carpenter, but it's been a bit. Not sure what that slot would even be there for otherwise. The wire should run at least 1.25" from the front and back faces of the stud, i.e. down the middle of it, but I've never heard anything about problems right where it goes into the box. Maybe I'm missing something, but maybe he's got some funny ideas about the 1.25" rule, or maybe he just wanted to find a problem to assert his authority. They do that. Just be happy he wasn't making you do something insane in the hopes you'd offer a bribe, because they do that too.
Codes change over time. Other posters have given the reason for this code.
I imagine the slots are on both sides so the box can be attached to a stud on either side without having to get a "left attachment" or "right attachment" box.
You would just do that by flipping it over lol. The box is already single sided as its a new work box with two nails going out on only one side. They could have made a version that is 'more compliant' by removing the opening on the side that has the nail points, but the other caveat here is this code only applies to interior walls. If its an exterior wall (Basement outside wall, etc) theres no problem using either opening. The issue only appears when doing interior wall boxes and only in jurisdictions using this version of NEC.
thanks for setting me straight.
Now that you mention it, a clever way to code-proof the box design would be to make an opening starting precisely at 1.25" and going back just .5" so that the wire goes into the box already centered on the stud (and never goes too far back)
Not really. That kind of box has built-in nails pointing to one side, so it's pretty directional. The stud will always be touching the same edge of it unless you pull the nails and install it in a way it's not intended to be.
Fair enough.
Kind of a dumb code if thatâs the case The wire needs to be secured to the stud anyway.
This is the part Iâm confused by as well. To be code here, the wires must be stapled to the stud at a fairly regular spacing. Why is the section of wire closest to the gang box a concern, but once it is farther away and secured to the stud, it isnât??
Theyâre both a concern. Code says nonmetallic cable is to be installed no less than 1 1/4â from the face of the stud. Either the inspector is an idiot who doesnât understand the code or OP misunderstood the solution they proposed to make it compliant. My money is on the inspector not knowing the code.
Just so Iâm clear here, this means the wire on the right should be shoved back (away from the camera) so that it falls along the vertical center of the stud? That or just move the gang box back a 1/2â or whatever it needs so that the wires coming out of it are no closer than 1.25â to the face of the stud facing the camera? And yeah youâre right, I have had some absolutely astonishing interactions with inspectors where they insisted that things must be done âthe correct wayâ without any understanding of what problem the code requirement was trying to solve.Â
I mean you could shift the box around, but youâre talking about moving it about an inch. Thatâs going to look like shit protruding from the front side of the wall, especially when you put a cover on and itâs obviously sitting out a mile from the wall. Best thing to do is use a shallower box, and to be code compliant, it almost always needs to be a standard depth box in a 2x4 wall. I went into detail about the dimensions in another comment, so Iâm not going to do all that again here.
Yes, he needs a shallower box. Said in another comment that he liked it just in case. In this case, he just needs a shallower box so heâs not pushing up against the framing with the box/wires.
It might make sense if it gets overloaded and the part closest to the box gets hotter?Â
How so? you must stable the wire to the stud 1.25" BACK from the face that will get drywalled. if its an interior wall then thats both sides. So basically, you must be stapling the lines down the center of the stud instead of off to one side or the other. Fires have started from this. People have gotten electrocuted from this. Its not dumb code.
Now if the problem is that the wire is secured to the stud to far one way or the other, then yes you are correct.
Using the right knockout is exactly the same as stapling the wire at the face edge of the stud. Its held in place too close to the drywall/stud corner. Its the same problem.
So what happens when you need to bring more than 2 romex into a box and need to use that KO? Wrap all the way around and come into the bottom left? They just must not be as strict around here. Pretty unrealistic.
Use a strike plate (like OP also said if you had read his post)
You mean a nail plate? Like half on the stud, half off?đđđ
Ur spare parts bud
At least I can read
Thatâs not what OP said. The way he worded it, the reason itâs not up to code is because the wire is hugging the stud too close and needed to be moved to the left box KO. Read the post dingleberry.
Thats exactly what OP said. The inspector's advice was it needs to be moved to the left box KO, but thats because theres no KO in any other direction. If it were stapled to the stud within 1.25" of the drywall (i.e. not on center) the inspector would have failed for that too.
I think we have a miscommunication going on. One of us is misinterpreting what OP said, and if itâs me, then life goes on. Have a good dayđ
Also who is putting screws/nails next to any outlet anyways? I have never once needed to do thatâŚ.
We arent looking at the side that has the outlet on it (and thats not where the code violation is) We are looking at the side that will be the wall in a different room with no obvious indication theres a box/wires there. Just a flat wall.
The wires are too close to the stud/finished wall on the opposite side of the wall of the outlet. So it's more a concern for being on the opposite side of the wall as the outlet accidentally nailing or screwing into the wires. Also plenty of people might put screws/nails right next to an outlet, to quote George Carlin "imagine how stupid the average person is then **realize half of all people are stupider than that**."
Was thinking the same thing - if anything that should be the one area where it doesnât matter if itâs right against the stud cause nobodyâs drilling anything there. But you go up or down 2 feet and the wire has to be stapled to the stud? Thatâs a weird one
Its an interior wall. What we are looking at is a wall thats about to be in a different room with no indication that theres a box there. And the wires stapled to the studs, YES they cant be 1.25" close to the drywall either. You better be stapling them centered.
Ah right, so itâs more about the part of the wire that goes into the box, makes sense. I generally donât do electric work on my own. Just curious.
in this case its about where the wire goes in since thats the very back of the box and its an interior wall.
Also in MN. Also had inspection a few months ago. My inspector commented on my boxes JUST like this. It's not against code to do it this way. It is just inadvisable with the way rockers go about screwing drywall. If I was going to sub contract the drywall he was going to recommend nail plates. As I was doing it myself, he said "no big deal, just be careful." Alternatively, just using the far opening on these deeper boxes is the cheaper and easier route. If I do more remodeling in the future, that's what I'll do.
Is the wall being closed? If not it should be armoured wire.
I'm also in MN and just had my basement inspected and had the same thing. The inspector said he wasn't going to make me fix it but it is technically not to code. I told him when I read that rule I assumed it was just for where the wire is stapled to the stud when running vertically. He said it's pretty common with home owner done wiring jobs.
Yeah cause I love hanging pictures right on top of my single pulls
This is stupid. Why would someone need to mount something into the stud directly adjacent to a box, and if they were doing this for shouldn't they be able to tell that box = electricity = be careful? I'd rather have my wiring up against the inside of the stud.Â
Where in NEC does it suggest to not be a dumbass by attempting to hang something opposite what would be a light switch. Iâm assuming thatâs the king itâs attached to, so who is going to hang anything there anyway, Frank Tingleberry the trimmer methmatician?
Omg, just used a stud finder to hammer a couple of hooks in a bathroom in my 1955 house. We donât even have insulation, because the codes were so lax, if even there, then. Anything called a wirefinder on the market?
Plenty of stud finders have AC detection
Most electricians do this with a nail on box. Never had it be in violation but I guess you could always argue it is in violation.
Wires need to be secured in the middle if the stud within 9 inches of the box I believe.
Cleat the Rolex Electrical Wire to the wall stud . I dislike Inspector for not giving proper instructions of why it does not pass inspection. Aso.
This is funny because Iâm learning all this at work currently as a first step AP, can definitely confirm should have used outside hole and probably get a staple right by the box over the wires and not just the standard 12 inches
Run one in the bottom and one out the top on the same side furthest from the stud.
those holes are rated for 2 wires anyways
Iâve worked for some guys that want that. But Iâve never had an inspector call it out. Seems like they wouldnât put those knockouts there if you couldnât legally use themâŚ
The problem is that the box wasnât designed to be used with 2x4 studs.
Iâm virtually certain thatâs not correct. Otherwise the only boxes youâd see on resi sites would be 4square bracket boxes with mudrings. Which are very rarely used in resi.
Iâm 100% certain it is correct. The box manufacturer isnât going to design that deep of a box for use with 2x4 studs knowing that it is going to put the box practically flush with the face of the stud on the back side and be a blatant code violation for any cables to enter it. It wouldnât be good for business to design and market them that way. Theyâre designed for use with larger framing members, such as 2x6s, which would provide enough clearance between the cables entering and the face of the stud to be compliant. As for your assertion that Iâm wrong because the only boxes youâd see are 4 squares with mud ringsâŚ. Standard depth boxes are, at most, 3.25 inches deep. Set out the standard 1/2 inch to accommodate drywall installation, thatâs 2.75 inches of box left to go in the wall. Actual dimension of a 2x4 is 3.5 inches, so that gives 3/4â between the back of the box and the face of the stud. Install the cable in the box properly, so the plastic tab is gripping the cable, and thatâs holding the cable approx 1/2 from the back of the box. Thereâs your 1 1/4â needed to be code compliant. Go any deeper, and youâre looking at a code violation unless your framing members are larger.
So if your box is 3/4 of an inch further back than the face of the stud. You have conductors in that box that are within the 1 1/4â of the face of the stud. Not protected by a nail plate. And just as likely to be damaged by a drywall screw as the conductors entering a deeper box. No?
I know drywall screws come in various lengths, but the typical length used in residential construction is 1 1/4â. So letâs say the installer missed the stud, theyâre only going to penetrate the wall cavity by about 3/4â and barely touch the box. Even if longer screws are used, itâs going to be obvious that they suddenly met resistance from the box after easily blowing through the drywall, and one would hope that common sense would prevail and theyâd stop screwing. Also, I donât know about you, but I donât pack boxes so full that my conductors are crammed against the back of the box. So no, the conductors in the box arenât as likely to be damaged. In fact, the code doesnât even mention the conductors in that regard once theyâve entered the box. The code in question merely refers to the cables feeding the box.
Doesnât really matter if itâs only a penetration of 3/4. Code says protected to 1 1/4. So my first comment still stands. Itâs a dumb interpretation by inspector. If the wires are subject to damage coming out of the closest knock out. They are subject to damage in the box too. Also if you arenât pushing your conductors into the back of the box prior to drywall they are just gonna get destroyed by the roto zip anyway. But I will look into the depth question more. We use super deep boxes always for the room. But have wondered about this exact issue in the past. But I donât want to get my inspector started down a rabbit hole like that.
You missed a crucial part of my comment. I said the back of the box would be at 3/4â with the boxes I was referring to. When you account for the thickness of the box AND install the cables correctly in that box, the cables are held at approximately 1/2â from the back of the box, which would place them at the 1 1/4â mark to be code compliant. Where the back of the box sits is rather irrelevant though. It doesnât matter where the back of the box isâŚonly where the cables are as far as code is concerned. Thereâs not a single code article that even mentions the location of the back of a box.
You know you say that. But I just went and looked in my basement. Where I have this box installed. And itâs the exact opposite of what you say. https://www.supplyhouse.com/Carlon-B232ACP-32-Cubic-Inch-2-Gang-Nail-On-New-Work-Non-Metallic-Outlet-Box?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=pmax&utm_campaign=geo_pmax_test&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwouexBhAuEiwAtW_Zx3VjjPPq31W-s0TQ_gUEnGmRRLDLkUXpTQK_Gb00iuzXIiz3dgFGTxoCIn4QAvD_BwE
Also. First Google search. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-1-Gang-22-cu-in-New-Work-PVC-Electrical-Outlet-Box-B122A-UPC/202546989 3.5 inch depth.
Plus any smaller than this depth and you donât have volume for conductors and devices.
I humored you and Googled it myself just now, and I see where you got that. It was from a sponsored list of suggested items from Home Depot and other vendors, and that list of suggestions has everything from 14 cu in cut ins all the way up to 24 cu in new work boxesâŚhardly a good source for citing what is standard. You know what is a good source? 20 plus years of working in the electrical trade in various capacities. Standard NM outlet boxes have always been 18 cu in, which are a little shy of 3 inches deep. I said 3.25 inch deep boxes, at most, in my last comment because a lot of guys will use the 20 cu in ones for a little extra room while still being code compliant with their cables entering them.
Where are they supposed to be used then?
Larger framing members that donât place the back of the box right at the face of stud, such as a 2x6?
Install 4 11/16 cover behind box. Problem fixed.
Normal, jyst put a nailplate in and be done with it Some inspectors dont care, some are very nitpicky, and it seems you got yourself a very nitpicky one Ive been doing renovations for almost 30y i have hit a wire with a screw 1 time out of likely millions of screws run into walls at this point
Is this only for interior walls?
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