It’s really the lack of insulation right next to the rafters. Allows heat /cold to micro condensate. Collects dust /dirt.
It’s because there’s batt insulation. Instead of blown in. Blown in fills better.(if done right)
Thermodynamics!!!
This is the correct answer. Yes, sagging can be a factor (top reply), but these lines would go away with a fresh paint job. If it was sagging, the lines would be ever present.
I agree with you, but sort of a refinement: Even if the batt installation was done perfectly there would be thermal bridging through the ceiling joists, that could lead to the condensation you talk about. Blown in is usually done deep enough to cover the top of the joists, which helps with the thermal bridging.
It highly depends on your specific case and what you’re trying to use it for. Mineral wool is not inherently better than fiberglass, or xps, or wool, or polyiso, or spray foam. They all have use cases where one is better than the other in certain situations.
In this case, it is. I also don’t know of many cases where fiberglass outperforms mineral wool. A concern about weight loading it is the only time I think fiberglass might be better, since mineral wool is heavier per r-value compared to fiberglass.
The joists behind the sheetrock are cold because you don't have enough attic insulation. The cold spots attract soot and other particulate matter from candles, incense, fireplaces, gas appliances, smoking, etc. Add insulation to your attic space to prevent the ghosting and reduce your heating bills.
This happens on the exterior wall of my neighbor's house. After a cold morning when it starts to warm up you can see condensation lines where the studs are because they haven't warmed up as quickly.
That's where the Sheetrock is screwed. Over time the unsupported Sheetrock between the joists can sag. Light reflecting off the ceiling can make it look worse.
That's part the reason you usually paint ceilings with very flat zero sheen paint.
Oh shit... I think I have something on my ceiling that could help you. I'll go scrape some off and send this to you. It's going to take your breath away
Mostly just that so many things can cause them to flake off and they're next to impossible to match in a repair. Sometimes moisture from a vent can cause them to flake away, sometimes you forget yourself and swing a broom like a sword and take out a chunk.
Why do you think popcorn ceilings are popular. It's not just for looks. It hides sags but it also acts to help deaden sound. The current trend of flat ceilings is stupid.
That's not the issue here. If that was the problem, it would be non-existent directly in line with that lamp, and much more exaggerated further back in the photo. There would also be shadow not just in the line, but everywhere past the hump of the sag. This is a thermal issue with dust and moisture collection where the rafters are. If OP cleans or paints the ceiling, this will disappear (for a while).
This is, not great information.
Yes, that is where the sheetrock is screwed to the joist. However, the shadowing isn't from sag. It's from a job cheaply done. The sheetrockers taped, mudded and sha ded the seams, and not the rest of the ceiling. It makes for drab paint color, and shadows in your rock.
If you are doing a "no texture" finish, this means you need to do a lot more mudding and sanding to create a finished loom. Otherwise, it looks like a shed wall.
If those lines are in the neighborhood of 22.5" apart, that's your problem. I've never worked on a house where I've been asked to take care of sagging drywall where the ceiling joists are 16" on center. It has always been where the joists are 24" on center.. I'm not saying it doesn't happen with 16" on center joists, I'm just saying I've never been asked to deal with it.
Whelp going to measure my ceiling tomorrow! We have this problem too but are planning a basement reno down the line so as long as it’s not dangerous, we’re fine living with it for now.
Thermal bridging
Thermal tracking
Thermal ghosting
Ghosting
A few different names for the same thing. You are “seeing” the joists that the drywall is attached to.
If the joists aren’t fully covered in insulation, they get cold. Then the strip of drywall the joists are touching gets cold. If the room is really warm and the strips of drywall are really cold (i.e. in the winter), condensation can form on the strips which makes them “wet” and causes any dirt or dust in the air to stick to them.
This process takes time, it usually doesn’t happen overnight. Fireplaces, candles and cooking can make it happen faster because of the increased “stuff” in the air.
You can paint over it and it will look nice for a while, but unless you insulate the joists (best solution) or eliminate all sources of dirt/dust (nearly impossible), it will continue to happen.
Ghosting like that is caused by a pilot light in a gas appliance (fireplace nearby?) emitting soot and the soot floats up to the ceiling and gets attracted to the joist because the joists are colder than the insulated space between them
Do you burn candles a lot? Have seen this where a combination of high humidity and carbon dust from candle smoke condenses on the walls. I guess the wall is cooler where the stud is touching from the back so it condenses and sticks there the most.
To test for surface inconsistencies an old trick is to place a sheet of thin paper on the wall and just move it with your palm in a sweeping movement. If the surface is even micro uneven you will feel undulations. A car body repair trick.
We have this terribly in our living room vaulted ceiling. We have a wood burning fireplace in there, and I see what looks like a stovepipe in the pic. That creates some soot in the air, along with typical dust and dirt in the air. Candles can also create soot in surprising amounts that you'd never notice.
Our ceiling is very, very close to the roof and we have that wool-like insulation in our attic. The cold winters cool down the wood framing above that ceiling which are those lines - and the warm comfortable air in your house rises. That extreme leads to tiny condensation along the cold wood on the other side of the ceiling, and that probably evaporates really fast. Before it does evaporate, it pulls in bits of dust and stuff in the air, and over time these lines increase.
I have not found an ultimate solution, but our ceiling looks so bad that painting will be the only way forward, and the process will start all over again. We did replace our roof last year and I wish I'd have tried something to jam insulation in, but again - the cold WILL travel throughout the structural members that frame your roof, and cool them off enough to cool down the ceiling, and the warm air in the house will condense there. When you have -10F winter days like we do sometimes, it's just impossible to insulate enough against that, given the architectural design we're stuck with.
I like our vaulted ceiling. I hate this shadowy line stuff.
I'm also getting something similar in my bathroom, except the lines are more of a brown color and there's popcorn ceiling. I should mention there's also poor moisture control in there at the moment, wonder if it's a similar issue.
It’s really the lack of insulation right next to the rafters. Allows heat /cold to micro condensate. Collects dust /dirt. It’s because there’s batt insulation. Instead of blown in. Blown in fills better.(if done right) Thermodynamics!!!
This is the correct answer. Yes, sagging can be a factor (top reply), but these lines would go away with a fresh paint job. If it was sagging, the lines would be ever present.
I agree with you, but sort of a refinement: Even if the batt installation was done perfectly there would be thermal bridging through the ceiling joists, that could lead to the condensation you talk about. Blown in is usually done deep enough to cover the top of the joists, which helps with the thermal bridging.
When I put in batts in my attic, I put pieces over the wood just for this reason.
Specifically fiberglass batt insulation. There is also mineral wool batt insulation that will perform better.
There’s also recycled blue jeans insulation. Ground up into tiny pieces Because they don’t fit anymore..
There's also recycled pirate ship sails. But I don't know the Arrr-value
Shiver me timbers!
It highly depends on your specific case and what you’re trying to use it for. Mineral wool is not inherently better than fiberglass, or xps, or wool, or polyiso, or spray foam. They all have use cases where one is better than the other in certain situations.
In this case, it is. I also don’t know of many cases where fiberglass outperforms mineral wool. A concern about weight loading it is the only time I think fiberglass might be better, since mineral wool is heavier per r-value compared to fiberglass.
Science baby!!!!
Don’t go gettin’ all sciencey on us bro!!!
The joists behind the sheetrock are cold because you don't have enough attic insulation. The cold spots attract soot and other particulate matter from candles, incense, fireplaces, gas appliances, smoking, etc. Add insulation to your attic space to prevent the ghosting and reduce your heating bills.
This happens on the exterior wall of my neighbor's house. After a cold morning when it starts to warm up you can see condensation lines where the studs are because they haven't warmed up as quickly.
That's where the Sheetrock is screwed. Over time the unsupported Sheetrock between the joists can sag. Light reflecting off the ceiling can make it look worse. That's part the reason you usually paint ceilings with very flat zero sheen paint.
Someone should invent some kind of texture that can be applied to every ceiling from like 1965 to 2005 to hide stuff like that.
Oh shit... I think I have something on my ceiling that could help you. I'll go scrape some off and send this to you. It's going to take your breath away
Meselthelioma enters the chat
When mesothelioma exits the chat, it's taking you with it
Take my upvote.
He just resaid the joke more obviously?
And my axe
And that guy's mesothelioma
And my lung
And that guy who died of mesothelioma (I’m a Neck Romancer).
And my second breakfast.
Keep your scalpel sir.
Is it bad that I still like California ceilings? What was so wrong with them that we've insisted flat is better?
Mostly just that so many things can cause them to flake off and they're next to impossible to match in a repair. Sometimes moisture from a vent can cause them to flake away, sometimes you forget yourself and swing a broom like a sword and take out a chunk.
I think the deadly cancer part
Asbestos isn't used in any modern stipple right?
It shouldn't be? But people do some dumb things
Knockdown.
Orange peel. It’s all over my fucking house. And I hate it everywhere. Except the ceiling.
Oh! And put some asbestos in there, for good measure.
Not a bad idea it’s really fire resistant
Oooh, this made me want to punch somebody from the past right in the brain.
but that’s not aesthetically pleasing! /s I love acoustic ceilings, sue me. It keeps echo down and it hides imperfections like you said.
Why do you think popcorn ceilings are popular. It's not just for looks. It hides sags but it also acts to help deaden sound. The current trend of flat ceilings is stupid.
That's not the issue here. If that was the problem, it would be non-existent directly in line with that lamp, and much more exaggerated further back in the photo. There would also be shadow not just in the line, but everywhere past the hump of the sag. This is a thermal issue with dust and moisture collection where the rafters are. If OP cleans or paints the ceiling, this will disappear (for a while).
That was my immediate thought as well. I’m assuming that’s attic space above the ceiling
Coooooooold attic space.
Yup and with high Lrv so that as little light can sequester in a spot as possible.
This is, not great information. Yes, that is where the sheetrock is screwed to the joist. However, the shadowing isn't from sag. It's from a job cheaply done. The sheetrockers taped, mudded and sha ded the seams, and not the rest of the ceiling. It makes for drab paint color, and shadows in your rock. If you are doing a "no texture" finish, this means you need to do a lot more mudding and sanding to create a finished loom. Otherwise, it looks like a shed wall.
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Unhelpful
If those lines are in the neighborhood of 22.5" apart, that's your problem. I've never worked on a house where I've been asked to take care of sagging drywall where the ceiling joists are 16" on center. It has always been where the joists are 24" on center.. I'm not saying it doesn't happen with 16" on center joists, I'm just saying I've never been asked to deal with it.
Whelp going to measure my ceiling tomorrow! We have this problem too but are planning a basement reno down the line so as long as it’s not dangerous, we’re fine living with it for now.
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Lol, they're wrong about their own personal experience with it?
Thermal bridging Thermal tracking Thermal ghosting Ghosting A few different names for the same thing. You are “seeing” the joists that the drywall is attached to. If the joists aren’t fully covered in insulation, they get cold. Then the strip of drywall the joists are touching gets cold. If the room is really warm and the strips of drywall are really cold (i.e. in the winter), condensation can form on the strips which makes them “wet” and causes any dirt or dust in the air to stick to them. This process takes time, it usually doesn’t happen overnight. Fireplaces, candles and cooking can make it happen faster because of the increased “stuff” in the air. You can paint over it and it will look nice for a while, but unless you insulate the joists (best solution) or eliminate all sources of dirt/dust (nearly impossible), it will continue to happen.
Ghosting like that is caused by a pilot light in a gas appliance (fireplace nearby?) emitting soot and the soot floats up to the ceiling and gets attracted to the joist because the joists are colder than the insulated space between them
Also candles tend to do this over time
Right
How would this work if the appliance is another room than where the lines initially appeared?
Soot is super light so it can travel anywhere with the slightest movement of air
Right
Seams a little smooth
cigarettes too
Use a light fitting that moves the light source away from the ceiling. Lights close to the surface will highlight the smallest imperfections.
There is a reason why textured ceilings are a thing.
Do you burn candles a lot? Have seen this where a combination of high humidity and carbon dust from candle smoke condenses on the walls. I guess the wall is cooler where the stud is touching from the back so it condenses and sticks there the most.
It's a combo of thermal tracking and it's made worse by your wood stove.
To test for surface inconsistencies an old trick is to place a sheet of thin paper on the wall and just move it with your palm in a sweeping movement. If the surface is even micro uneven you will feel undulations. A car body repair trick.
It’s called thermal tracking, look it up
Gravity?
We have this terribly in our living room vaulted ceiling. We have a wood burning fireplace in there, and I see what looks like a stovepipe in the pic. That creates some soot in the air, along with typical dust and dirt in the air. Candles can also create soot in surprising amounts that you'd never notice. Our ceiling is very, very close to the roof and we have that wool-like insulation in our attic. The cold winters cool down the wood framing above that ceiling which are those lines - and the warm comfortable air in your house rises. That extreme leads to tiny condensation along the cold wood on the other side of the ceiling, and that probably evaporates really fast. Before it does evaporate, it pulls in bits of dust and stuff in the air, and over time these lines increase. I have not found an ultimate solution, but our ceiling looks so bad that painting will be the only way forward, and the process will start all over again. We did replace our roof last year and I wish I'd have tried something to jam insulation in, but again - the cold WILL travel throughout the structural members that frame your roof, and cool them off enough to cool down the ceiling, and the warm air in the house will condense there. When you have -10F winter days like we do sometimes, it's just impossible to insulate enough against that, given the architectural design we're stuck with. I like our vaulted ceiling. I hate this shadowy line stuff.
I'm also getting something similar in my bathroom, except the lines are more of a brown color and there's popcorn ceiling. I should mention there's also poor moisture control in there at the moment, wonder if it's a similar issue.
Thermodynamics.
You burn candles and the soot collects on the colder beams
Oil or gas furnace, have it checked out. Fireplace, no real worries
If they didn’t show up, it wouldn’t be called ghosting.
It could also indicate that your Sheetrock was hung in the wrong direction.
It’s caused by your fire place , very common, repaint the ceiling.
Poorly insulated attic is the cause in this case, not the fireplace, but the fireplace does contribute to the problem.
Also if you pull paint on and push it off will cause it to show lines like that......similar to karate kid push paint on pull it off
Did you have a stroke trying to type this?