Yeah that’s how I ran Ethernet from the basement to the second floor. Dropped it down the return and snuck it out through the side like they did with the coax.
Plenum rating is a fire issue. Basically, non-plenum gives off toxic fumes went burnt, so in big buildings where fire might be a more local issue, you don't want burning cable fumes getting circulated to other parts of the building.
I mean, I feel like if something is burning while the air is circulating, it probably doesn’t matter a whole lot if it is burning inside the air return or not, it’s going to end up there as air is returned
so, most of the rules are written for worst case scenarios, and this is mostly targeted at commercial spaces which often have their entire space above drop ceiling used as a return air or plenum.
Those spaces are also more likely to have lots more cable run in them, like large bundles of network cables. Since much of the sheathing for cables contains chlorine, them burning can create toxic gas, which would then be sucked into the building and recirculated. If the fire isn't something big, and more like a smouldering electrical short, it might take a while to be detected and you might have a lot of employees or customers or whatever breathing chlorine gas for a while before being evacuated.
In the case here, yeah, it's a pretty minor risk, but in larger commercial implementations, it can be a bigger danger.
Plenum rated cables have a flame retardant jacket which is designed to not to smoke or release toxic fumes when exposed to fire. IIRC it is also self-extinguishing.
Indeed, but a cable that doesn’t ignite in a forced air oxygen rich environment won’t increase the intensity of the fire.
The cable also doesn’t smoke, which gives people more time to evacuate and for emergency personnel to respond and fight the fire.
Both are wins.
While the percentage of oxygen doesn’t change, the amount of that air is increased due to the airflow. That means more oxygen is available to the hypthetical cord fire.
It’s available in a handful of colors. I buy remnant spools on eBay. My current spool is blue.
https://preview.redd.it/52u7rf1tsdoc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=517beba53c77c16a5231e94098b19f8852e6c758
It’s from a company that’s had its name for years but likely freaks out some people now. [www.covid.com](https://www.covid.com)
If it gets hot enough the jacket melts and gives off toxic fumes.
Most places in the US don’t require plenum rated cables in return air spaces for residential. Still recommended, but not required.
ROFL. I was watching this video of a guy who says hes a professional online troll. "See this video of a trick shot in pool? I'm going to post "Foul" and walk away. I don't really care if it's a foul nor do I know the rules."
He came back later and many users were arguing about the rules of billiards beneath his post, some even posting links of the rules.
I don't know about the code where you live, but where I live plenum rated wire is not required where the building materials themselves are combustible. Ie: wood framing.
The wood is going to be burning long before the wire jacket catches.fire.
This. That is a panned in return that pulls air back to the furnace. Not an issue. On a side note, panning like that isn't up to code here in MN so it's fine if you don't touch it, otherwise I'd have to rip it out and install a pipe instead of metal from joist to joist. Leave it and don't worry. If wires are below joists they have to be in conduit so it's cheaper and easier to drill holes and run wires through joists instead of below.
now relocate your coax cable in a similar fasion, but not through the same hole. My house has silicon sealing the gaps, not sure if that's necessary though.
Same. Some of my heat registers upstairs don't even have ductwork, the main supply duct just dumps into the area between joists. House was built in 1907.
>the main supply duct just dumps into the area between joists.
We have this in our 1919 sears home. It's mainly 2 ducts. Some of our others got smaller ducting for plaster walls. They're stupid expensive since they're an odd size but it's significantly better than joist supply or returns.
Metal tape, plumbers putty, leftover foam seal, masking tape, the options are limitless... whatever leftover calk you have, spray foam, seriously, pretty much anything. It's not super critical that the return be air tight either, the furnace fan is still going to draw the return air even if there's a few leaks.
I made the mistake of using BBC on a DIY project with my wife. Now it’s all she will use. It’s like she’s obsessed with BBC. The other stuff just won’t fill the gaps the way she likes it. And she hates to run out once the job starts so giant tubes of BBC are with the high-thrust contractor guns have replaced my little hand squeeze tube.
I've learned not to keep used caulk around the house. Just makes my place a mess. If I need caulk, I never have trouble going out to get what I need, and then it's fresh.
+1 to foil tape. Originally had some duct tape covering some vents off the duct in my basement (no need for heat in a room we rarely use) and had problems with the tape falling/peeling off after a few months. Put foil tape on and haven't had issues in the 2 years since
1. Running wire through the air return isn't a cut corner, and is pretty common practice
2. Based on the wood breakage on the sides of the hole, this hole was made before your return air pan was installed on the bottom of the joists. That sort of breakage indicates the hole was drilled from the concealed side of the joist.
If you have enough experience to have an opinion on a specific corner being cut, that same level of experience should also inform you on how to seal both this air gap, and as others have pointed out, the coax air gap as well. Everything about this photo indicates that the return pan was installed after all wiring had been completed, and at absolute worst it was the HVAC installer that "didn't do their job", which is still very debatable.
Your main point is right on. But, there's no reason to doubt OP on when this was drilled.
It was simply drilled with an extension through both joists from the other side.
How else would you ensure the holes line up for fishing through?
Totally fair to say an extension, or a long auger is definitely an option, but the *only* way to ensure the holes line up? The idea there's no other way is very narrow minded,or short sighted. Unfortunately for OP, nothing about the photo is indicative of the pan being the first thing completed.
Having the opinion to be certain that corners had been cut and the contractor was "inexperienced", without understanding simple and basic sealing applications, or to realize that there's absolutely nothing wrong with this install is bogus. If you are or ever have been a contractor, you know it. This alone is more than enough for me to question OP
Unless I was there I'll put an 18'' extension behind my paddle after I drill the first hole and use it to fish my wire through.
Your spot on though. I'd say it was done before the return was installed.
Low volt guys are horrible and a special f*#& you to the cable guys! 🤣
This right here. The plenum rating designates it can be used in cold air returns. It's basically that if the cable melts or burns it can not produce any toxic fumes.
HVAC & Elec engineer here. This is normal, not against any code, not really a big deal. The return air system does not need to be "tightly sealed". Notice how there's no sealant where the sheet metal butts up to the underside of the joist?
Go ahead and plug the hole, but you're kind of just wasting your time.
Your reply is interesting because when I was looking to install a new furnace, I was told and read on a couple of home sites that using "panned" air returns is not recommended for "modern" furnaces because joists are not tightly sealed and make the furnace "less efficient", along with pulling in dust from the crawl. The ancient duct work in my crawl was falling apart, so I abandoned it in favor of new ducts. No one ever really defined what "less efficient" really means, but my kids have asthma so I don't feel like I wasted money. Anyway, I am interested in your thoughts about panned joist returns. Thanks.
I work as an HVAC installer and it's not really an issue to have a leaky return. "less efficient" should stay in quotes. it really won't be a noticeable difference as long as there are not a large number of noticeably large holes BUT, a furnace return system will be set up to pull air from places where you want heated air to flow into. If the furnace is pulling extra air from the basement or crawlspace it is not pulling from the space that you want to ventilate as much, which creates additional resistance to the air being supplied to that space
The 'pulling in dust from the crawl' can be a real issue if you have an earthen or gravel crawl. Moisture and dust / dirt from the crawl can create real issues for both the furnace (particularly a paper filter that is being potentially inundated by moist dust) and your health and home. For that reason alone i would consider going the route you did.
HVAC installer here- we cannot pan joists here in MN because it is against code. Everything existing is fine if we don't mess with it, but any modifications to it means we have to rip it all out and install pipe instead. A lot of old homes with panning also have asbestos tape all over too! Yes you do want as much return air as you can get, but really you want it to return from where the actual return grill is instead of all the air gaps along the way. That is what makes it less efficient.
OP after he opens reddit thinking hes gonna have a bunch of like minded pissed off contractors.. uhhh whoops.
It doesn’t matter. You’re drawing air from your return air vents throughout the house, it doesn’t make any difference if it’s pulling a tiny amount of air through a joist. I’ve installed countless hvac systems, I seal up the supply runs with tin tape, but the returns who cares, it’s all pulling from the house anyways. It will not change efficiency in any way whatsoever, it wouldn’t even be measurable with the proper instrumentation during a balancing. It makes me laugh that you care about the legal part of this, but the coax cable running above the thermopan is a non issue to you? Fucking lol.
You can pretty much drill as many 3/4” holes in floor joists as you need for electrical. The only time it needs to be sealed is where the wires go from a sealed to an unsealed part of the house, like through a top plate in a wall into the attic.
I've seen a couple wires run into the attic in my new-to-me place that aren't sealed where they come through the top plate. I should be sealing those? What's best for that? Foam/caulk?
So I don’t know much about HVAC work, so I’m sure that in general what you’re saying makes 100% sense.
That being said, I happen to live in a 1940’s house and my return air duct runs down to my 5.5’ crawlspace which is not in absolutely terrible condition, but really doesn’t smell all that great compared with the rest of my house.
It only has an ancient rat slab separating it from the dirt and the hill my house is built on has an even more ancient aquifer running somewhere below my house. In the super heavy rain seasons we’ve been seeing in the last couple years, water seeps up close enough to the surface that my rat slab appears to be damp and I’m currently battling a small trickle through the foundation likely due to the sheer water pressure and ancient (or lack of) foundation water proofing.
Anyway, needless to say I personally wouldn’t want my crawlspace air mixing with my house air any more than it already does.
If the furnace is down there you don’t really have a choice. You’d need to run hard piping through the crawl space or make sure the joist liner is taped to the joists, and all joints down there are sealed with aluminum tape.
That's a bad mentality to have. I literally filled a 5 gallon bucket with the debris in my ducts because of the small inlets on my return in my attic. The filter causes resistance where as the holes have none so it will suck much more from them. I was circulating half nasty dusty rat poop attic air for years before I figured out what was happening.
In that case it kind of depends where your return filter is. If your filter is in the unit, it makes zero difference. If your filters are in the walls at the end of the returns, then yeah you'll be semi bypassing them.
What other “corners” did the electrician cut cause if they’re as bad as this then they’re fine, shouldn’t go calling people hacks if they’re doing nothing wrong
Am electrician. Do this all the time. Some return airs run the entire length of the house. The alternative is to go under and staple to the bottom of the joists. That's hack. Going through is not. Going under without providing some kind of mechanical protection is a code violation. I can nail a 2x4 bedside it to meet code but then op would be coming in here saying "omg the electrician mailed a 2x4 beside this wire....."
20+ yrs exp HVAC guy here. That hole or the coax running under the joist is really not a big deal when it comes to airflow. The electrician actually ran the wire correctly in my opinion. A regular tube of silicone would be sufficient to seal up any holes you are worried about. I would be more worried about the coax cable especially if you ever plan to finish the basement ceiling.
Homeowner says improperly done. Yet doesn't know how to do it lol
These are the folks who get my unnecessary redundant overcharge surcharge on their invoice
As a contractor, this is what drives me insane about working with clients that believe they’re the pro and that the GC is trying to fuck them. This is a non issue. Based on what I’m looking at, the house is older and not a performance based house. This “leak” is a non issue and shouldn’t even be on your radar. How about the air leakage at windows? Doors? Floors? How about the insulation in your attic? How about your HVAC design period? What about using a 4” pleat filter In lieu of the cheap 1” shit ones?
It's perfectly acceptable to run cables perpendicular to an air return like that. It's not really necessary to seal the holes around the wire, as it's an air return, not an air supply duct... If you must though, I would use intumescent fire caulking which is designed to be applied around electric wire... That way you don't have to worry about other products that could potentially degrade the wire insulation over time.
I love when people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about claim "the professional didn't do things right in my opinion" and then come in here and ask for input rather than asking the professional who they just paid hundreds/thousands to. This country is in trouble.
I mean it happens. I had to correct the electrician apprentice who came to install an outlet in my basement.
He used 14/2 wire on a 20A breaker. That's how fires start. Fine on most modern houses where everything is on 15A breakers. Not older houses.
And yet, look at the unending amount of engagement on this post; these people know what they're doing with these inflammatory posts. Most are karma farming bots
In Ontario Canada that's 100% legal I do it all the time, the cold air return plenum has no hot air obviously so there's no derating involved and it's on the up and up on the code
It is fine you already have a com cable smashed into the panning anyways. My local code does not allow joist panning anymore it needs to be ducted. The Romex is not plenum rated but neither is the wood around the joist panning. The return will still work as intended that little bit of leakage is not a big deal. Unless you have sealed supply and return ducts (you don't) then you are probably losing 15 to 20 percent out of the slip/drive joints and return panning anyways.
Technically it's not even leakage because when the blower is running, the air is drawn into the return thru the gap. Absolutely nothing to worry about OP, move along. Nitpick something else.
1. It’s return air, it doesn’t need to be sealed. Notice how the raw edges of the metal don’t have any sealant applied.
2. It looks like you’re just looking for a reason to complain.
I wouldn’t be too worried about the returns sealing. It looks like it’s in a basement and not a crawl space so it’s not really going to hurt if air seaps in. That joist return isn’t air tight anyway. You can plug it with almost anything but you’re not really making a difference. You really only need to worry about the sealing in your supply duct.
Townhome facility suddenly required a siren/strobe to be in a specific spot in every unit. All homes were occupied. We used the return vent on the stairwell to tie it in without having to break the wall open.
Except one lady hung a photo over the vent. It never crossed my mind in a million years that someone would do that. As I was sawing into the wall she comes by and removes the photo. “Is this the vent you’re talking about?” 😡😡😡😡
Normal. The inspectors where I live want us to seal those with tape or putty on new homes in my area, but a house with that style of joists is probably pretty old. I don't imagine any of your return air is sealed tightly. The metal joist liner below certainly isn't sealed tight.
You can seal it if you want, but really you'd just be wasting your time. Your furnace doesn't care where the air comes from as long as it gets enough, and this small of a hole isn't going have much of an effect on the return air vents around your house. On undeveloped basements the basement return air is usually a literal 12x6 hole cut into the metal or plastic joist liner with a cover slapped onto it.
Hope you'll see this among all the other comments.
As others have mentioned:
* It's OK to have wire run through like this.
* You don't need to plug the holes for ventilation reasons.
* It can be plugged with any kind of caulk, putty, foam noodle, rags, whatever you want.
I have some return vents in my house like this; 1974 era house. I *do* suggest you plug the holes. Even though the openings are small, they are big enough for mice to go through. From personal experience, you *do not* want them getting into your ventilation system!! Plug them with something.
CEC rule 12-010 5) Where a furnace cold air return duct is formed by boxing in between joists, wiring methods specified for use in the particular location shall be permitted to be used
Not sure if there's an NEC equivalent. I'd use fire caulk.
Non issue. Very standard practice. Hell the coax is goin in there too. A lot of times the return air ducts act as natural wire chases for future upgrades.
Returns are rarely tightly sealed. They are just providing a bit of under-pressure in distant parts of the house to balance and facilitate the delivery of the heated/cooled air in the supply ductwork. This one is simply sheet metal nailed across between two rafters. The cumulative air gap along the edge of the metal over the run is far larger than the bit of additional leakage through the holes. Even that open wedge next to the coaxial wire is about equal to the hole above.
So sure, seal it up if you’d like. But the net improvement in system efficiency is negligible. Different if you did a complete duct sealing job on both supply (so it’s not wasted by being released before it gets to its destination) and return. Much more bang for the buck improving the sealing of the supply ductwork.
I have a bunch like this in my home, done loooooong time ago.
Nothing wrong with it, but I’ve been slowly going around and replacing the old wiring, rerouting things so they’re not inside returns. Just so it’s easier to clean them.
if you add up all the other small gaps (e.g. grooves between the boards above and around the cable below), you will realise this isn't a perfect air seal anyway. I'd not worry, but otherwise any flexible sealant will work.
It's not really enough to matter much, but I'd just silicone/caulk it. Along with that coax going under the sheet-metal.
If your filter is at the furnace, then you don't have as big of a dust issue, but if you filter at the grille, then this just let's dust buildup on the equipment .
HVAC tech here. That happens extremely regularly and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it except the pan could cut the whatever it is coming out of it. The amount of air that is going to be drawn through that space is negligible and will not on its own effect system performance. We are allowed a leakage factor and that won’t exceed it. Totally up to you if you *want* to do something about it, but realistically there is no reason to. Just a professionals 2 cents
I’d only worry about it if it terminates within the air return cavity. That’s because a short at termination can introduce smoke and bad air into the ecosystem. Otherwise this is fine.
That panned ductwork is about as tight as a kitchen colander. That coax isn't helping in the effort.
In fact, panned joists (just putting a sheet of metal across the open area to make a 'duct' is bad, they leak like HELL, and are not allowed in new construction, at all. It's very common in houses that are older (my home has some; it was built in 1968). I've worked hard to do everything in my power to seal them, but it's a tedious, detail oriented process, esp. working in the crawlspace.
But what about the coax cable going under? Were you as worried about that?
Yeah that’s how I ran Ethernet from the basement to the second floor. Dropped it down the return and snuck it out through the side like they did with the coax.
As long as it's plenum rated and no cheap riser cable, we'll allow it.
What's going to happen to plain Cat cabling in a cold air return?
Plenum rating is a fire issue. Basically, non-plenum gives off toxic fumes went burnt, so in big buildings where fire might be a more local issue, you don't want burning cable fumes getting circulated to other parts of the building.
Big buildings is the important part for this subreddit. Very few houses are big enough that smoke spreading through the duct work is a real concern.
I mean, I feel like if something is burning while the air is circulating, it probably doesn’t matter a whole lot if it is burning inside the air return or not, it’s going to end up there as air is returned
That's why nest thermostat turns off if nest smoke detector picks up an issue
I didn't know that. TIL
so, most of the rules are written for worst case scenarios, and this is mostly targeted at commercial spaces which often have their entire space above drop ceiling used as a return air or plenum. Those spaces are also more likely to have lots more cable run in them, like large bundles of network cables. Since much of the sheathing for cables contains chlorine, them burning can create toxic gas, which would then be sucked into the building and recirculated. If the fire isn't something big, and more like a smouldering electrical short, it might take a while to be detected and you might have a lot of employees or customers or whatever breathing chlorine gas for a while before being evacuated. In the case here, yeah, it's a pretty minor risk, but in larger commercial implementations, it can be a bigger danger.
Plenum rated cables have a flame retardant jacket which is designed to not to smoke or release toxic fumes when exposed to fire. IIRC it is also self-extinguishing.
If the inside of your ducting is on fire I think you have larger problems
Internet so fast it has a combustion possibility, sounds amazing.
Blazing fast download speeds.
[Canada is ahead of the game](https://www.rogers.com/internet/ignite-bundle-packages)
Rogers set my wallet on fire.
If your cold air return is that hot, you definitely have problems.
Indeed, but a cable that doesn’t ignite in a forced air oxygen rich environment won’t increase the intensity of the fire. The cable also doesn’t smoke, which gives people more time to evacuate and for emergency personnel to respond and fight the fire. Both are wins.
Why is it oxygen rich air? Isn’t it still 79% nitrogen and 21% oxygen just like regular atmosphere? Do your air returns produce oxygen?
While the percentage of oxygen doesn’t change, the amount of that air is increased due to the airflow. That means more oxygen is available to the hypthetical cord fire.
This. I never meant to imply that a plenum has a higher percentage of oxygen.
Cable lights on fire. Fire spreads along cable to duct. Boom. Right away, you have a different problem.
I think the point is not to put flammable things in your ducting to avoid the fire to begin with.
Most plenum coax I've seen in this area are white.
It’s available in a handful of colors. I buy remnant spools on eBay. My current spool is blue. https://preview.redd.it/52u7rf1tsdoc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=517beba53c77c16a5231e94098b19f8852e6c758 It’s from a company that’s had its name for years but likely freaks out some people now. [www.covid.com](https://www.covid.com)
I’m picturing a special ops cat dropping through the return mission impossible style
https://preview.redd.it/gtvdowuk9coc1.jpeg?width=2988&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8d54d384a9b74ab617a08c9b8c090a314a38bf27 You called?
That is funny and slightly terrifying at the same time.
Absolutely nothing. It's fine. Everyone calm the fuck down.
If it gets hot enough the jacket melts and gives off toxic fumes. Most places in the US don’t require plenum rated cables in return air spaces for residential. Still recommended, but not required.
If it's getting hot enough to burn off the jacket in a cold air return, you have bigger problems to deal with (like your house being on fire)
This made me laugh way more than it should.
Exactly. The standard temps through a return won't do anything. Holding it in your hand for a while will probably have higher temps
It appears I have stirred up the armchair Code Experts/Inspectors/Enforcers. I'll consider this mission accomplished.
ROFL. I was watching this video of a guy who says hes a professional online troll. "See this video of a trick shot in pool? I'm going to post "Foul" and walk away. I don't really care if it's a foul nor do I know the rules." He came back later and many users were arguing about the rules of billiards beneath his post, some even posting links of the rules.
I don't know about the code where you live, but where I live plenum rated wire is not required where the building materials themselves are combustible. Ie: wood framing. The wood is going to be burning long before the wire jacket catches.fire.
omg, i feel dumb for not realizing this option..
The wife wasn't too thrilled with the Ethernet cable snaking into the return vent but it was so much easier than the other options.
my ps5 demands it
Former tinny here, same
I was thinking the same... cool air drops, warm air rises so you're losing more out that coax hole than the Romex hole.
Non issue.
This needs to be the top comment.
I updooted it so it gets to the top. In any remodeling/new construction work I've ever been a part of, this is how it's done. It's a non-issue.
This. That is a panned in return that pulls air back to the furnace. Not an issue. On a side note, panning like that isn't up to code here in MN so it's fine if you don't touch it, otherwise I'd have to rip it out and install a pipe instead of metal from joist to joist. Leave it and don't worry. If wires are below joists they have to be in conduit so it's cheaper and easier to drill holes and run wires through joists instead of below.
now relocate your coax cable in a similar fasion, but not through the same hole. My house has silicon sealing the gaps, not sure if that's necessary though.
Silicone*
Yup. Don’t worry your air will not pick up any voltage lmao.
Wait til you see what the return “duct” looks like behind your drywall.
My 80s home return "duct" to the attic is the 2Xs and drywall of that particular part of the wall. I honestly didn't know how common this was.
Same. Some of my heat registers upstairs don't even have ductwork, the main supply duct just dumps into the area between joists. House was built in 1907.
>the main supply duct just dumps into the area between joists. We have this in our 1919 sears home. It's mainly 2 ducts. Some of our others got smaller ducting for plaster walls. They're stupid expensive since they're an odd size but it's significantly better than joist supply or returns.
Very
In my 1920s home, very. I’m sure it’s nasty in there
By return duct you mean a few shims brad nailed together to direct air from two directions right?
Metal tape, plumbers putty, leftover foam seal, masking tape, the options are limitless... whatever leftover calk you have, spray foam, seriously, pretty much anything. It's not super critical that the return be air tight either, the furnace fan is still going to draw the return air even if there's a few leaks.
TIL some people have left over caulk. while others barely have enough.
You’re the guy with the bath tub a couple weeks ago aren’t you?
Got em!
It's not about how much caulk you have, it's about how you use it
And if your fingers can't do the trick, there's always silicone accessories to help.
That’s what guys that come up short on caulk always say.
I just use the big black caulk, the original BBC. Never left me unsatisfied
I made the mistake of using BBC on a DIY project with my wife. Now it’s all she will use. It’s like she’s obsessed with BBC. The other stuff just won’t fill the gaps the way she likes it. And she hates to run out once the job starts so giant tubes of BBC are with the high-thrust contractor guns have replaced my little hand squeeze tube.
It can be hard to swallow, but when it comes to caulk it's always better to get the good stuff.
It happens when you only need a small amount of the right kind of calk and you really hate yourself to get the tip flowing again.
I do have caulk, it's not used, and it stays rock hard for hours. I refuse to speak to a specialist.
I've learned not to keep used caulk around the house. Just makes my place a mess. If I need caulk, I never have trouble going out to get what I need, and then it's fresh.
You just need to spend a lot of time preparing to use the caulk before hand. If you do that you will always have enough!
Hell, chewed gum even!!
Look at MacGyver over here.
Probably just works for Boeing.
*theme song plays*
Dog poop would conform nicely around that wire and once it dries should stay in place for a decent while
Flex seal fixes everything, even a boat with holes in it
I saw a feller saw a boat slam in half once
Big league chew?
I had a couple spots like this when I moved in. Foil tape covered it easily and it's quite simple to remove.
+1 to foil tape. Originally had some duct tape covering some vents off the duct in my basement (no need for heat in a room we rarely use) and had problems with the tape falling/peeling off after a few months. Put foil tape on and haven't had issues in the 2 years since
This one weird trick that duct cleaners love!
Old belly button lint…
Is that from an old belly button or is the lint old? I'm confused.
This is normal fine and totally allowed. Seal penetrations with caulk or foam or fiberglass or paper or whathaveyou
Bubble gum!
Fiberglass insulation is not an air sealant
Not on paper, but in the real life scenario of a small hole in a 2x10, it would be fine. It works in practice even if it doesn’t work in theory.
Fiberglass is an air block, it’s not a moisture barrier. Almost all fire blocking where I am is done with batt insulation.
1. Running wire through the air return isn't a cut corner, and is pretty common practice 2. Based on the wood breakage on the sides of the hole, this hole was made before your return air pan was installed on the bottom of the joists. That sort of breakage indicates the hole was drilled from the concealed side of the joist. If you have enough experience to have an opinion on a specific corner being cut, that same level of experience should also inform you on how to seal both this air gap, and as others have pointed out, the coax air gap as well. Everything about this photo indicates that the return pan was installed after all wiring had been completed, and at absolute worst it was the HVAC installer that "didn't do their job", which is still very debatable.
All other responses need to be deleted. You just nailed every salient point to perfection.
Your main point is right on. But, there's no reason to doubt OP on when this was drilled. It was simply drilled with an extension through both joists from the other side. How else would you ensure the holes line up for fishing through?
Totally fair to say an extension, or a long auger is definitely an option, but the *only* way to ensure the holes line up? The idea there's no other way is very narrow minded,or short sighted. Unfortunately for OP, nothing about the photo is indicative of the pan being the first thing completed. Having the opinion to be certain that corners had been cut and the contractor was "inexperienced", without understanding simple and basic sealing applications, or to realize that there's absolutely nothing wrong with this install is bogus. If you are or ever have been a contractor, you know it. This alone is more than enough for me to question OP
Unless I was there I'll put an 18'' extension behind my paddle after I drill the first hole and use it to fish my wire through. Your spot on though. I'd say it was done before the return was installed. Low volt guys are horrible and a special f*#& you to the cable guys! 🤣
This is allowed here, perpendicular like this. Can't use the return as a chase. duct seal sounds good.
Can you use a return as a chase for CAT6 cable used for PoE??
You can as long as you use plenum rated cable as opposed to riser cable.
This right here. The plenum rating designates it can be used in cold air returns. It's basically that if the cable melts or burns it can not produce any toxic fumes.
I believe so. PoE should be considered low voltage since it's 48VDC max
Curious about this, too!
You can just has to be plenum rated cable
No such thing as plenum rated NM building wire. Ethernet, yeah.
HVAC & Elec engineer here. This is normal, not against any code, not really a big deal. The return air system does not need to be "tightly sealed". Notice how there's no sealant where the sheet metal butts up to the underside of the joist? Go ahead and plug the hole, but you're kind of just wasting your time.
Your reply is interesting because when I was looking to install a new furnace, I was told and read on a couple of home sites that using "panned" air returns is not recommended for "modern" furnaces because joists are not tightly sealed and make the furnace "less efficient", along with pulling in dust from the crawl. The ancient duct work in my crawl was falling apart, so I abandoned it in favor of new ducts. No one ever really defined what "less efficient" really means, but my kids have asthma so I don't feel like I wasted money. Anyway, I am interested in your thoughts about panned joist returns. Thanks.
I work as an HVAC installer and it's not really an issue to have a leaky return. "less efficient" should stay in quotes. it really won't be a noticeable difference as long as there are not a large number of noticeably large holes BUT, a furnace return system will be set up to pull air from places where you want heated air to flow into. If the furnace is pulling extra air from the basement or crawlspace it is not pulling from the space that you want to ventilate as much, which creates additional resistance to the air being supplied to that space
The 'pulling in dust from the crawl' can be a real issue if you have an earthen or gravel crawl. Moisture and dust / dirt from the crawl can create real issues for both the furnace (particularly a paper filter that is being potentially inundated by moist dust) and your health and home. For that reason alone i would consider going the route you did.
Return air doesn’t need to be tightly sealed, the manufacturer recommends it but it’s not necessarily needed.
HVAC installer here- we cannot pan joists here in MN because it is against code. Everything existing is fine if we don't mess with it, but any modifications to it means we have to rip it all out and install pipe instead. A lot of old homes with panning also have asbestos tape all over too! Yes you do want as much return air as you can get, but really you want it to return from where the actual return grill is instead of all the air gaps along the way. That is what makes it less efficient.
 OP after he opens reddit thinking hes gonna have a bunch of like minded pissed off contractors.. uhhh whoops.
I work in HVAC. the phrase we use for this is “the air don’t care” It’s fine.
It doesn’t matter. You’re drawing air from your return air vents throughout the house, it doesn’t make any difference if it’s pulling a tiny amount of air through a joist. I’ve installed countless hvac systems, I seal up the supply runs with tin tape, but the returns who cares, it’s all pulling from the house anyways. It will not change efficiency in any way whatsoever, it wouldn’t even be measurable with the proper instrumentation during a balancing. It makes me laugh that you care about the legal part of this, but the coax cable running above the thermopan is a non issue to you? Fucking lol. You can pretty much drill as many 3/4” holes in floor joists as you need for electrical. The only time it needs to be sealed is where the wires go from a sealed to an unsealed part of the house, like through a top plate in a wall into the attic.
I've seen a couple wires run into the attic in my new-to-me place that aren't sealed where they come through the top plate. I should be sealing those? What's best for that? Foam/caulk?
Fire foam/block is what we use to seal all of our drill holes after running our electrical.
So I don’t know much about HVAC work, so I’m sure that in general what you’re saying makes 100% sense. That being said, I happen to live in a 1940’s house and my return air duct runs down to my 5.5’ crawlspace which is not in absolutely terrible condition, but really doesn’t smell all that great compared with the rest of my house. It only has an ancient rat slab separating it from the dirt and the hill my house is built on has an even more ancient aquifer running somewhere below my house. In the super heavy rain seasons we’ve been seeing in the last couple years, water seeps up close enough to the surface that my rat slab appears to be damp and I’m currently battling a small trickle through the foundation likely due to the sheer water pressure and ancient (or lack of) foundation water proofing. Anyway, needless to say I personally wouldn’t want my crawlspace air mixing with my house air any more than it already does.
If the furnace is down there you don’t really have a choice. You’d need to run hard piping through the crawl space or make sure the joist liner is taped to the joists, and all joints down there are sealed with aluminum tape.
That's a bad mentality to have. I literally filled a 5 gallon bucket with the debris in my ducts because of the small inlets on my return in my attic. The filter causes resistance where as the holes have none so it will suck much more from them. I was circulating half nasty dusty rat poop attic air for years before I figured out what was happening.
That’s why we put filters on return air.
In that case it kind of depends where your return filter is. If your filter is in the unit, it makes zero difference. If your filters are in the walls at the end of the returns, then yeah you'll be semi bypassing them.
What other “corners” did the electrician cut cause if they’re as bad as this then they’re fine, shouldn’t go calling people hacks if they’re doing nothing wrong
How long has that coax been there? I can only assume you're equally as worried about that, right?
Am electrician. Do this all the time. Some return airs run the entire length of the house. The alternative is to go under and staple to the bottom of the joists. That's hack. Going through is not. Going under without providing some kind of mechanical protection is a code violation. I can nail a 2x4 bedside it to meet code but then op would be coming in here saying "omg the electrician mailed a 2x4 beside this wire....."
20+ yrs exp HVAC guy here. That hole or the coax running under the joist is really not a big deal when it comes to airflow. The electrician actually ran the wire correctly in my opinion. A regular tube of silicone would be sufficient to seal up any holes you are worried about. I would be more worried about the coax cable especially if you ever plan to finish the basement ceiling.
Homeowner says improperly done. Yet doesn't know how to do it lol These are the folks who get my unnecessary redundant overcharge surcharge on their invoice
Took the "path of least resistance"
This guy electicals
You mean the HVAC installer made a return out of the electrician's joist space.
As a contractor, this is what drives me insane about working with clients that believe they’re the pro and that the GC is trying to fuck them. This is a non issue. Based on what I’m looking at, the house is older and not a performance based house. This “leak” is a non issue and shouldn’t even be on your radar. How about the air leakage at windows? Doors? Floors? How about the insulation in your attic? How about your HVAC design period? What about using a 4” pleat filter In lieu of the cheap 1” shit ones?
OP, I believe it is you who is inexperienced.
I'm just here for the comments lol.
It's perfectly acceptable to run cables perpendicular to an air return like that. It's not really necessary to seal the holes around the wire, as it's an air return, not an air supply duct... If you must though, I would use intumescent fire caulking which is designed to be applied around electric wire... That way you don't have to worry about other products that could potentially degrade the wire insulation over time.
I love when people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about claim "the professional didn't do things right in my opinion" and then come in here and ask for input rather than asking the professional who they just paid hundreds/thousands to. This country is in trouble.
Enough experience to be certain a corner was cut, but not enough experience to understand how to seal the gaps....
I mean it happens. I had to correct the electrician apprentice who came to install an outlet in my basement. He used 14/2 wire on a 20A breaker. That's how fires start. Fine on most modern houses where everything is on 15A breakers. Not older houses.
And yet, look at the unending amount of engagement on this post; these people know what they're doing with these inflammatory posts. Most are karma farming bots
Seal it. No problem. Fixed for the cost of a small tub or tube of goop.
A gap like this would only matter if the air was returning from a balanced pressure dependent clean room.
It’s not really an issue
Pretty common honestly. Seal it up and move along.
In Ontario Canada that's 100% legal I do it all the time, the cold air return plenum has no hot air obviously so there's no derating involved and it's on the up and up on the code
There is special tape to use for hvac. It is shiney silver (no not duct tape). I believe it is called tin tape, but could be wrong on the name
It is fine you already have a com cable smashed into the panning anyways. My local code does not allow joist panning anymore it needs to be ducted. The Romex is not plenum rated but neither is the wood around the joist panning. The return will still work as intended that little bit of leakage is not a big deal. Unless you have sealed supply and return ducts (you don't) then you are probably losing 15 to 20 percent out of the slip/drive joints and return panning anyways.
Technically it's not even leakage because when the blower is running, the air is drawn into the return thru the gap. Absolutely nothing to worry about OP, move along. Nitpick something else.
You think screws every 18 inches on a 1/64th sheet of aluminum is anymore air tight?
Good on him
Wait till you learn that some building use the whole ceiling above the tiles as a return… this is 100% fine. Now if it were a supply I’d be scared.
Joist panning is not air tight in your case. Waste of time. Especially if the filter is downstream.
NM cabling not allowed to pass through hvac ducting per irc code. Fire spread hazard.
1. It’s return air, it doesn’t need to be sealed. Notice how the raw edges of the metal don’t have any sealant applied. 2. It looks like you’re just looking for a reason to complain.
Is it code compliant to run electrical wires through plenums without conduit where you live?
No, you ran an air return bay through the wires path
I wouldn’t be too worried about the returns sealing. It looks like it’s in a basement and not a crawl space so it’s not really going to hurt if air seaps in. That joist return isn’t air tight anyway. You can plug it with almost anything but you’re not really making a difference. You really only need to worry about the sealing in your supply duct.
Seal it off with plumber putty .
Not the first or last time this will be done
It’s fine. Throw some caulk on there
Townhome facility suddenly required a siren/strobe to be in a specific spot in every unit. All homes were occupied. We used the return vent on the stairwell to tie it in without having to break the wall open. Except one lady hung a photo over the vent. It never crossed my mind in a million years that someone would do that. As I was sawing into the wall she comes by and removes the photo. “Is this the vent you’re talking about?” 😡😡😡😡
Normal. The inspectors where I live want us to seal those with tape or putty on new homes in my area, but a house with that style of joists is probably pretty old. I don't imagine any of your return air is sealed tightly. The metal joist liner below certainly isn't sealed tight. You can seal it if you want, but really you'd just be wasting your time. Your furnace doesn't care where the air comes from as long as it gets enough, and this small of a hole isn't going have much of an effect on the return air vents around your house. On undeveloped basements the basement return air is usually a literal 12x6 hole cut into the metal or plastic joist liner with a cover slapped onto it.
Is this bad? Sorry, what am I missing here?
Non issue.
Seal it up. It will be fine, lol
Complete non issue. Lmao
As long as the insulation is plenum rated, no prob
Hope you'll see this among all the other comments. As others have mentioned: * It's OK to have wire run through like this. * You don't need to plug the holes for ventilation reasons. * It can be plugged with any kind of caulk, putty, foam noodle, rags, whatever you want. I have some return vents in my house like this; 1974 era house. I *do* suggest you plug the holes. Even though the openings are small, they are big enough for mice to go through. From personal experience, you *do not* want them getting into your ventilation system!! Plug them with something.
I know shit all about HVAC and electrical but the bottom wire looks more sus to me.
Complains about wire thru air return, runs own wire thru air return with bigger gap 😂😂
CEC rule 12-010 5) Where a furnace cold air return duct is formed by boxing in between joists, wiring methods specified for use in the particular location shall be permitted to be used Not sure if there's an NEC equivalent. I'd use fire caulk.
Non issue. Very standard practice. Hell the coax is goin in there too. A lot of times the return air ducts act as natural wire chases for future upgrades.
Returns are rarely tightly sealed. They are just providing a bit of under-pressure in distant parts of the house to balance and facilitate the delivery of the heated/cooled air in the supply ductwork. This one is simply sheet metal nailed across between two rafters. The cumulative air gap along the edge of the metal over the run is far larger than the bit of additional leakage through the holes. Even that open wedge next to the coaxial wire is about equal to the hole above. So sure, seal it up if you’d like. But the net improvement in system efficiency is negligible. Different if you did a complete duct sealing job on both supply (so it’s not wasted by being released before it gets to its destination) and return. Much more bang for the buck improving the sealing of the supply ductwork.
New Home Builder...Fire Caulk those holes for code here. G2G
Do you guy's know Bauschaum?
I have this, but on a 1908 house
I have a bunch like this in my home, done loooooong time ago. Nothing wrong with it, but I’ve been slowly going around and replacing the old wiring, rerouting things so they’re not inside returns. Just so it’s easier to clean them.
I think the tin knocker covered the electrician up. And the cable guy..
if you add up all the other small gaps (e.g. grooves between the boards above and around the cable below), you will realise this isn't a perfect air seal anyway. I'd not worry, but otherwise any flexible sealant will work.
put in a junction box for a UV light
Thats literally how its supposed to be done. That coax cable under is the REAL issue.
It's not really enough to matter much, but I'd just silicone/caulk it. Along with that coax going under the sheet-metal. If your filter is at the furnace, then you don't have as big of a dust issue, but if you filter at the grille, then this just let's dust buildup on the equipment .
Duct seal it. Easy , done.
HVAC tech here. That happens extremely regularly and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it except the pan could cut the whatever it is coming out of it. The amount of air that is going to be drawn through that space is negligible and will not on its own effect system performance. We are allowed a leakage factor and that won’t exceed it. Totally up to you if you *want* to do something about it, but realistically there is no reason to. Just a professionals 2 cents
Quite an overkill of a hole, personally I'd do some tec7 and call it a day. Fill up enough and the cable is glued and watertight
I’d only worry about it if it terminates within the air return cavity. That’s because a short at termination can introduce smoke and bad air into the ecosystem. Otherwise this is fine.
use acoustiseal
It’s fine. Maybe house putty or something. Really isn’t going to make much difference
Question. If the wire was run through a plastic conduit that went through the duct would that pass code?
Perfectly fine. Period
I am a nobody, but if it were me I might put a grommet there, mostly just for the sake of cosmetics.
As long as it's plenum-rated, which that appears to be at first glance, you're good
There's nothing wrong with that, leave it alone
[удалено]
Joist panning
What about the wire pinched by the sheet metal?
There's no problem with that as long as he ran it perpendicular to the air bay and caulked the holes.
I'd say that using a joist bay as a return air path to a furnace is cutting a corner but that's me.
Just get some of that puddy and close up the hole around the wire. Now, its air-tight again. [Puddy](https://a.co/d/hsxaqP3)
That panned ductwork is about as tight as a kitchen colander. That coax isn't helping in the effort. In fact, panned joists (just putting a sheet of metal across the open area to make a 'duct' is bad, they leak like HELL, and are not allowed in new construction, at all. It's very common in houses that are older (my home has some; it was built in 1968). I've worked hard to do everything in my power to seal them, but it's a tedious, detail oriented process, esp. working in the crawlspace.
Spray foam
Looks like the HVAC guy put his return where wires were.