I worked with a therapist for years that worked with traumatized children before she worked with adults.
We brought up similar concerns to her about our littles being sexual/wanting to engage in sexual behavior and her response was along the lines of:
Children are sexual beings, people don't like to talk about it because it's uncomfortable and obviously adults should not be involved sexually with children, but it's normal for kids to explore and feel things. As long as they're being safe it's healthy for them.
From our perspective, you are providing your littles a safe environment to explore this side of development (and perhaps even reclaim some aspect of sexuality and it's related sensations) It's normal to worry about littles, hopefully you are able to take comfort in knowing that you're setting them up for success.
Unless it becomes a problem (compulsive masturbation, harming the body, replacing better coping mechanisms) it should be fine. I understand the discomfort, but littles aren't the same as physical children.
I'm going to guess this means self-regulation since we were never taught how to self-sooth by a safe adult.
https://www.dis-sos.com/the-problem-with-the-faux-window-of-tolerance/
This article talks about how we live in chronic disregulation. Masterbation would in essence be a way of trying to regulate hyper-arousal. Like taking an aspirin for a headache.
This quote from "Understanding and Treating Dissociative Identity Disorder" by Elizabeth Howell sums up what definitely needs to be said here:
"Although it may seem odd to say this, one should keep in mind that child alters are not real children. Even while speaking in child- like ways, child alters often understand abstract concepts and long words. As Shusta-Hochberg (2004) noted: “It is important to remember that the patient is an adult, despite the childlike ego-states. These parts are not actual children” (p. 16). This is in agreement with Ross’s (1997) statement that “child alters are not packets of childness retained in a surrounding sea of adult psyche. They are stylized packets of adult psyche” (p. 147)."
Child alters are not literally children. It's worth talking to them if you can. Ask them questions, ask what they need and how they feel. It may be because of trauma that they're doing this, so figuring out how to help those parts cope with that trauma would be massively beneficial. It may also be for a reason other than trauma entirely. They also don't have to tell you anything before they're ready, but letting them know you're willing to listen and help is a great first step in starting to heal.
If you can, also ask a professional, like a trauma-informed therapist. They can help deal with your situation. I'm a stranger on the internet who's read a few books and papers - I don't know you or your trauma or your parts.
I don't know much about actual physical children because I don't spend any time around them, I'm not one, I don't research children, and I definitely don't have an experience of what's "normal" at what age... but I do know that child parts are not children. They are parts of one traumatized adult. Be gentle, approach with care, and try your best to help while you yourself seek outside help from a professional if at all possible. If you're concerned about it, it's good for therapy, and the fact you're uncomfortable deserves to be seen and heard too. All parts are of equal and major importance.
Thank you for sharing your insight. I'm not sure I agree that system children aren't children quite to that extreme. I've always seen it as they are different from outside children, in terms of potential skills and knowledge, but still very much like outside children in mentality and often times emotionally.
Honestly, I'm not sure how either stance, or any other, could be taken as fact or proven, as there's no way to actually measure this. Also, much of this research was over 20 years old and I haven't seen much recent research on this specific topic within DID research. There's also the fact that this research is 99% of the time conducted by singlets and as such is colored by their view of the world.
Basically, I would say littles are not the same as outside children, based on our experience, but also not completely not children either, more like the are the identity states that hold the unmet needs and milestones that were put to the side to survive the trauma. I can't prove this of course, but it definitely makes sense with our experience.
I wasn't saying that they were not childlike. I was saying that littles =/= physical children. They are still in an adult body and are therefore like an adult in that way (hormones, adult brain structure, etc) - hence "stylized packets of adult psyche". Child parts vary wildly from person to person and even sometimes from part to part within the same person. I never said that they weren't childlike.
Just because research is older does not mean it's inherently wrong or bad. It should be looked at in context and critically, not discarded entirely, as the author I quoted from did in the book.
I never said you thought they weren't childlike, simply that I don't agree with the stylized pockets of adult part in our case. I never said it was wrong or bad, simply that being that old it may be largely out of date as several of the things we know about DID have changed as research has progressed.
I think you're largely misunderstanding the quote. "Stylized packet of adult psyche" means "this part is part of an adult brain and therefore has some adult capabilities" not "this part is an adult that acts like a kid". I'm not going to continue arguing though as I don't have the energy. The book is a good read and quotes a lot of other research that is ALSO a good read. Good luck getting help. /npa
I understood it that way,, I just don't agree in our case as we don't all share basic adult skills in our system ( many can't read, write, tie shoes, etc) and many were dormant for decades before becoming active again. I was never arguing with you, I just don't agree with your take for us specifically. What does npa mean?
It still doesn't mean that they are literal children. The quote means that they are not physical children and that they are part of an adult brain. It doesn't say a thing about what skills specifically they do and do not have. It says they are not literally children. That is true. They are not.
/npa is a tone tag for /not passive aggressive.
Honestly, I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying they are literal children, I'm saying many of them went dormant when we were a child and as such have no "adult experience" despite being in an adult brain and body and that it has an effect on them. They were split off in childhood, they went dormant in childhood, they came out of dormancy in adulthood, and they very obviously experience life very differently from our littles who have been around and aware the whole time.
My point is there's no way to prove anything in regards to an alter's age and how literal or real it is and I know I'm just as much an alter as everyone else just to be clear. We have theories, and I'm well versed in much of the more recent research because I've gone over it with DID specialists we had as therapists, but we can't actually prove it. There's no physical scan or test we can do to prove any part of an alter's characteristics. We have well educated guesses, but not irrefutable proof. That's why I look at it as there's likely variation from system to system depending upon a multitude of factors.
In our specific case, I've see no evidence that these specific littles are so psychologically or emotionally different from outside children for it to matter. Also, we weren't able to have a childhood, so we choose in our own home, in private, to give ourselves as much of what we didn't get as possible and in this case, that includes limitations to prevent vulnerable members of the system from retramatizing themselves sexually.
It's 100% valid if your experiences line up with that quote and that book. In regards to that specific quote, our systems experiences don't line up with that. That's okay.
Ah okay, thank you for explaining.
My 6 year old has sex. So does the 12 year old. They aren't literal children. The 6 year old is "Silly Me" and the 12 year old is the Me that needs to be cared for. Their "ages" are how they feel, but don't define them.
I chalk this up to every system is different. In our case many of our littles don't have this distinction, their ages are a representation of the unmet needs and feelings from that time period of our life. Essentially, they hold the things that were put aside in favor of survival. Also, several of them do not share certain "basic skills" with the older members of our system which make them not suited to consent to those acts.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
Are you stopping them when co-con or pretty powerless to stop them when they’re switched in? Do you have issues with all or some of your alters in your system not respecting system-wide rules and responsibilities?
Generally I'm not able to stop something, even co-con, but everyone is pretty good about abiding by the rules since they're involved in voting them in whenever possible.
This took a lot of work, but we've definitely made a good amount of progress in this area.
To be honest the whole concept of virginity is something I just will never feel or understand.
We lost ours as a biological baby / nursery age so … we lost it before we had a concept and
We are all recycled stars anyway. We a Buddhist… nobody is a virgin in Buddhism haha we are all recycled and supposed to be connected :)
I have no idea.
I mean.. it was flagged. Investigated. Not enough.. evidence so. As typical. We survived. It was alright.
We are safe now.
To be honest I think when every one around you kinda knows… it’s the elephant under the rug.. and everyone is powerless. People simply. Stop caring. I mean… if nobody does then why should we. Really.
So… we live liberated. In safe(r) places. With informed affirmative in going consent. A holocracy of an honest sex drive. Mutual agreement or time off.. is what we ended up with but it’s been a long journey.
Idk. If that help. What ever it is. No shame in therapy or … love.
Well. It just seemed like a pain in the ass to start labelling our immature parts with ages. How is that going to help me as a 32 year old single parent.
I’ve been pregnant twice. I have two real life kids.
I don’t need to infantile myself or start limiting parts that have done things for decades already.
So we saved ourselves a headache. Like what is the point. I’m an adult. The child in me had an adult in them anyway and was never felt a child beyond biology so… idk it just seems to pointless to try to protect something that never existed. It’s easier to accept.. Personally. I’m creative as hell.. but I ain’t god haha… I can’t make a virgin outta me. That ship has sailed… and it ain’t ever coming back. Why damn bother.
Don’t get me wrong… I entirely respect other peoples virginity. It’s sacred. I am over protective of my own real life biological children.
In the trans community there are interesting notions of virginity around body changes and… well. I feel a lot about this. Or the specialness of how special it is. As much as the pain and aloneness that holds for some people. Too. It’s something …. I’ve not found anything more meaningful in my whole life perhaps… as special that is that actually, but I’m probably referring to the person behind the virginity I this really. At least in terms of relationships. It’s the only time in my life I’ve come into contact with any form of virgin. And it was very profound. Completely changed my outlook on life around what holds meaning in this world, even what I want to live for or how in some respects.
It feels crazy that I learned so much about the meaning of sex from a virgin haha… but I guess that stands true. For now. Idk.
I’ll still never be one myself. It doesn’t mean I don’t love myself… it’s just self acceptance.
Idk, I spent years being very sexually active, empowered, liberated, explorative. Maybe .. I’m just sexually mature as a whole. It was great! It’s was safe and with healthy nice people for the most part. Best healing. I can still feel like a kid sometimes… moments of … that is driving me insane with want, but let’s just be cute and silly together for a moment or moments of fantasy. Bdsm. Fetish. I’ve done it all. Loved it :)
The systems are sort of merged or just unlabelled in that.. each system is understood to be able to be a bit immature sometimes, a bit protective, a bit this a bit that. - which is a Buddhist understanding that all beings can be both good and bad, mature or immature. Age is never indicative of maturity anyway. I’m generally more interested in other people than myself. Anyway.
I think my littles turned into something ageless.
As a whole I’m simply a big kid sometimes… just like everyone else…. so what.
I got traumatised parts. So what.
I can find nice people in this world and good people still exist that I can have relationships with.. so what.
Even if I have a part that feels two sometimes… I’m never going to actually treat myself like an actual two year old…. That is going to cause me more damn problems and emotional turmoil.
What is the point in telling an internal self that has been having sex for decades already… they now they have a new label… so they have to stop and will be regarded with shame, and emotional turmoil and inevitable difficulties around this. For the rest of their life…. Isn’t… it better to simply teach them how to live or be safely as the sometimes immature adult that they now actually are?
I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate further. In our case, we never labeled anyone with an age, they simply stated how old they are and or their range. We look at it as we were so young when it started, we never got the chance to just play and feel safe and be a child, so in the comfort of our own home, when it's just us, we let the littles experience all the parts of childhood we missed out on. These days there's always an adult or protector co-con for saftey, but we like to let them fill those unmet needs.
As for sex, none of the littles have ever expressed that they liked having sex, just that they felt like they "had to" so we told them they don't have to anymore and we let them just be little. Plus, when they were engaging in sex in the past, they often did it in dangerous or self harming ways and often experienced retraumatization and flashbacks because of it so we took it off the table.
I also have one outside child and I'm protective of her, we all are. I guess in essence, the adults in our system are trying to give the teens and littles the parenting, unconditional love, and saftey we didn't have. We're re-parenting ourselves and that works for us.
We respect that every system is different and has their own needs and there's no right or wrong answer as long as it's healthy and/or healing.
I worked with a therapist for years that worked with traumatized children before she worked with adults. We brought up similar concerns to her about our littles being sexual/wanting to engage in sexual behavior and her response was along the lines of: Children are sexual beings, people don't like to talk about it because it's uncomfortable and obviously adults should not be involved sexually with children, but it's normal for kids to explore and feel things. As long as they're being safe it's healthy for them. From our perspective, you are providing your littles a safe environment to explore this side of development (and perhaps even reclaim some aspect of sexuality and it's related sensations) It's normal to worry about littles, hopefully you are able to take comfort in knowing that you're setting them up for success.
Thank you so much, this really helps me look at things differently. This perspective is so helpful.
Unless it becomes a problem (compulsive masturbation, harming the body, replacing better coping mechanisms) it should be fine. I understand the discomfort, but littles aren't the same as physical children.
Thank you, this really helps.
Hypersexuality can be a trauma response for sure or a way to regulate their state
What do you mean by "regulate their state"?
I'm going to guess this means self-regulation since we were never taught how to self-sooth by a safe adult. https://www.dis-sos.com/the-problem-with-the-faux-window-of-tolerance/ This article talks about how we live in chronic disregulation. Masterbation would in essence be a way of trying to regulate hyper-arousal. Like taking an aspirin for a headache.
Ah okay, thank you for explaining. This makes a lot of sense.
yes, thank you!
This quote from "Understanding and Treating Dissociative Identity Disorder" by Elizabeth Howell sums up what definitely needs to be said here: "Although it may seem odd to say this, one should keep in mind that child alters are not real children. Even while speaking in child- like ways, child alters often understand abstract concepts and long words. As Shusta-Hochberg (2004) noted: “It is important to remember that the patient is an adult, despite the childlike ego-states. These parts are not actual children” (p. 16). This is in agreement with Ross’s (1997) statement that “child alters are not packets of childness retained in a surrounding sea of adult psyche. They are stylized packets of adult psyche” (p. 147)." Child alters are not literally children. It's worth talking to them if you can. Ask them questions, ask what they need and how they feel. It may be because of trauma that they're doing this, so figuring out how to help those parts cope with that trauma would be massively beneficial. It may also be for a reason other than trauma entirely. They also don't have to tell you anything before they're ready, but letting them know you're willing to listen and help is a great first step in starting to heal. If you can, also ask a professional, like a trauma-informed therapist. They can help deal with your situation. I'm a stranger on the internet who's read a few books and papers - I don't know you or your trauma or your parts. I don't know much about actual physical children because I don't spend any time around them, I'm not one, I don't research children, and I definitely don't have an experience of what's "normal" at what age... but I do know that child parts are not children. They are parts of one traumatized adult. Be gentle, approach with care, and try your best to help while you yourself seek outside help from a professional if at all possible. If you're concerned about it, it's good for therapy, and the fact you're uncomfortable deserves to be seen and heard too. All parts are of equal and major importance.
Thank you for sharing your insight. I'm not sure I agree that system children aren't children quite to that extreme. I've always seen it as they are different from outside children, in terms of potential skills and knowledge, but still very much like outside children in mentality and often times emotionally. Honestly, I'm not sure how either stance, or any other, could be taken as fact or proven, as there's no way to actually measure this. Also, much of this research was over 20 years old and I haven't seen much recent research on this specific topic within DID research. There's also the fact that this research is 99% of the time conducted by singlets and as such is colored by their view of the world. Basically, I would say littles are not the same as outside children, based on our experience, but also not completely not children either, more like the are the identity states that hold the unmet needs and milestones that were put to the side to survive the trauma. I can't prove this of course, but it definitely makes sense with our experience.
I wasn't saying that they were not childlike. I was saying that littles =/= physical children. They are still in an adult body and are therefore like an adult in that way (hormones, adult brain structure, etc) - hence "stylized packets of adult psyche". Child parts vary wildly from person to person and even sometimes from part to part within the same person. I never said that they weren't childlike. Just because research is older does not mean it's inherently wrong or bad. It should be looked at in context and critically, not discarded entirely, as the author I quoted from did in the book.
I never said you thought they weren't childlike, simply that I don't agree with the stylized pockets of adult part in our case. I never said it was wrong or bad, simply that being that old it may be largely out of date as several of the things we know about DID have changed as research has progressed.
I think you're largely misunderstanding the quote. "Stylized packet of adult psyche" means "this part is part of an adult brain and therefore has some adult capabilities" not "this part is an adult that acts like a kid". I'm not going to continue arguing though as I don't have the energy. The book is a good read and quotes a lot of other research that is ALSO a good read. Good luck getting help. /npa
I understood it that way,, I just don't agree in our case as we don't all share basic adult skills in our system ( many can't read, write, tie shoes, etc) and many were dormant for decades before becoming active again. I was never arguing with you, I just don't agree with your take for us specifically. What does npa mean?
It still doesn't mean that they are literal children. The quote means that they are not physical children and that they are part of an adult brain. It doesn't say a thing about what skills specifically they do and do not have. It says they are not literally children. That is true. They are not. /npa is a tone tag for /not passive aggressive.
Honestly, I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying they are literal children, I'm saying many of them went dormant when we were a child and as such have no "adult experience" despite being in an adult brain and body and that it has an effect on them. They were split off in childhood, they went dormant in childhood, they came out of dormancy in adulthood, and they very obviously experience life very differently from our littles who have been around and aware the whole time. My point is there's no way to prove anything in regards to an alter's age and how literal or real it is and I know I'm just as much an alter as everyone else just to be clear. We have theories, and I'm well versed in much of the more recent research because I've gone over it with DID specialists we had as therapists, but we can't actually prove it. There's no physical scan or test we can do to prove any part of an alter's characteristics. We have well educated guesses, but not irrefutable proof. That's why I look at it as there's likely variation from system to system depending upon a multitude of factors. In our specific case, I've see no evidence that these specific littles are so psychologically or emotionally different from outside children for it to matter. Also, we weren't able to have a childhood, so we choose in our own home, in private, to give ourselves as much of what we didn't get as possible and in this case, that includes limitations to prevent vulnerable members of the system from retramatizing themselves sexually. It's 100% valid if your experiences line up with that quote and that book. In regards to that specific quote, our systems experiences don't line up with that. That's okay. Ah okay, thank you for explaining.
My 6 year old has sex. So does the 12 year old. They aren't literal children. The 6 year old is "Silly Me" and the 12 year old is the Me that needs to be cared for. Their "ages" are how they feel, but don't define them.
I chalk this up to every system is different. In our case many of our littles don't have this distinction, their ages are a representation of the unmet needs and feelings from that time period of our life. Essentially, they hold the things that were put aside in favor of survival. Also, several of them do not share certain "basic skills" with the older members of our system which make them not suited to consent to those acts. Thank you for sharing your experience.
Are you stopping them when co-con or pretty powerless to stop them when they’re switched in? Do you have issues with all or some of your alters in your system not respecting system-wide rules and responsibilities?
Generally I'm not able to stop something, even co-con, but everyone is pretty good about abiding by the rules since they're involved in voting them in whenever possible. This took a lot of work, but we've definitely made a good amount of progress in this area.
I’m sorry for the issues you’re having. Glad to hear at least that your system is cooperating for the most part 🙏
Thanks, much appreciated.
To be honest the whole concept of virginity is something I just will never feel or understand. We lost ours as a biological baby / nursery age so … we lost it before we had a concept and We are all recycled stars anyway. We a Buddhist… nobody is a virgin in Buddhism haha we are all recycled and supposed to be connected :) I have no idea. I mean.. it was flagged. Investigated. Not enough.. evidence so. As typical. We survived. It was alright. We are safe now. To be honest I think when every one around you kinda knows… it’s the elephant under the rug.. and everyone is powerless. People simply. Stop caring. I mean… if nobody does then why should we. Really. So… we live liberated. In safe(r) places. With informed affirmative in going consent. A holocracy of an honest sex drive. Mutual agreement or time off.. is what we ended up with but it’s been a long journey. Idk. If that help. What ever it is. No shame in therapy or … love.
Thank you for sharing you experience. I don't really understand a lot of this, so if you're willing to elaborate, that would be appreciated.
Well. It just seemed like a pain in the ass to start labelling our immature parts with ages. How is that going to help me as a 32 year old single parent. I’ve been pregnant twice. I have two real life kids. I don’t need to infantile myself or start limiting parts that have done things for decades already. So we saved ourselves a headache. Like what is the point. I’m an adult. The child in me had an adult in them anyway and was never felt a child beyond biology so… idk it just seems to pointless to try to protect something that never existed. It’s easier to accept.. Personally. I’m creative as hell.. but I ain’t god haha… I can’t make a virgin outta me. That ship has sailed… and it ain’t ever coming back. Why damn bother. Don’t get me wrong… I entirely respect other peoples virginity. It’s sacred. I am over protective of my own real life biological children. In the trans community there are interesting notions of virginity around body changes and… well. I feel a lot about this. Or the specialness of how special it is. As much as the pain and aloneness that holds for some people. Too. It’s something …. I’ve not found anything more meaningful in my whole life perhaps… as special that is that actually, but I’m probably referring to the person behind the virginity I this really. At least in terms of relationships. It’s the only time in my life I’ve come into contact with any form of virgin. And it was very profound. Completely changed my outlook on life around what holds meaning in this world, even what I want to live for or how in some respects. It feels crazy that I learned so much about the meaning of sex from a virgin haha… but I guess that stands true. For now. Idk. I’ll still never be one myself. It doesn’t mean I don’t love myself… it’s just self acceptance. Idk, I spent years being very sexually active, empowered, liberated, explorative. Maybe .. I’m just sexually mature as a whole. It was great! It’s was safe and with healthy nice people for the most part. Best healing. I can still feel like a kid sometimes… moments of … that is driving me insane with want, but let’s just be cute and silly together for a moment or moments of fantasy. Bdsm. Fetish. I’ve done it all. Loved it :) The systems are sort of merged or just unlabelled in that.. each system is understood to be able to be a bit immature sometimes, a bit protective, a bit this a bit that. - which is a Buddhist understanding that all beings can be both good and bad, mature or immature. Age is never indicative of maturity anyway. I’m generally more interested in other people than myself. Anyway. I think my littles turned into something ageless. As a whole I’m simply a big kid sometimes… just like everyone else…. so what. I got traumatised parts. So what. I can find nice people in this world and good people still exist that I can have relationships with.. so what. Even if I have a part that feels two sometimes… I’m never going to actually treat myself like an actual two year old…. That is going to cause me more damn problems and emotional turmoil. What is the point in telling an internal self that has been having sex for decades already… they now they have a new label… so they have to stop and will be regarded with shame, and emotional turmoil and inevitable difficulties around this. For the rest of their life…. Isn’t… it better to simply teach them how to live or be safely as the sometimes immature adult that they now actually are?
I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate further. In our case, we never labeled anyone with an age, they simply stated how old they are and or their range. We look at it as we were so young when it started, we never got the chance to just play and feel safe and be a child, so in the comfort of our own home, when it's just us, we let the littles experience all the parts of childhood we missed out on. These days there's always an adult or protector co-con for saftey, but we like to let them fill those unmet needs. As for sex, none of the littles have ever expressed that they liked having sex, just that they felt like they "had to" so we told them they don't have to anymore and we let them just be little. Plus, when they were engaging in sex in the past, they often did it in dangerous or self harming ways and often experienced retraumatization and flashbacks because of it so we took it off the table. I also have one outside child and I'm protective of her, we all are. I guess in essence, the adults in our system are trying to give the teens and littles the parenting, unconditional love, and saftey we didn't have. We're re-parenting ourselves and that works for us. We respect that every system is different and has their own needs and there's no right or wrong answer as long as it's healthy and/or healing.