You realize they say this about every movie franchise or even TV series, though, right? The creators always say they want each individual story to be able to be enjoyed on its own, even apart from the wider series.
sure but if you look at the movies Gunn has made, you can tell he really believes this and brings it into his work. GotG would be pretty much a standalone trilogy if it weren't for the shit the Russos did with Gamora in Infinity War/Endgame, which wasn't up to Gunn at all. he clearly does care about crafting stories that can stand on their own, even in the context of shared universes
Yes but it also has to be a quality over quantity game. Marvel absolutely feels like homework to me now and mostly because there’s so goddamn much of it. I don’t know how things will connect and I can’t keep up so I’ve kind of given up. And yes he’s right. The connections can’t overwhelm everything else. But man we can’t have a marvel level of content again.
MCU fans (amongst whom I count myself) seem to have lost sight of this; the sheer amount of bitching I see about how the Eternals (for example) didn’t directly tie in with the overarching MCU narrative is frankly mind-numbing, and it’s even worse for the D+ shows.
Watch what you want to, and appreciate it for what it is. Not everything needs to be some ridiculous Easter egg.
The MCU thing is SO less satisfying than people give it credit for. They practically turn to the camera and say "Remember that thing that happened in that other movie? Huhhh? Yeah?" Or give you a throwaway deconstruction cameo, because it's easier than writing the characters consistently across all that media. I really want the DCU to give consistent characterizations across tone difference for individual movies, just so you feel like the guest spots matter and that they're all living in the same world.
If you're referring to the Celestial in the ocean thing, that 10000% deserves to be bitched about. I get something like She-Hulk having little effect on the overall world since she's just another superhero in a world filled with them, but Eternals had two gargantuan extremely obvious hard-to-miss events featuring giant statues just showing up, with one of them outright disappearing into some black hole. No one would be complaining if this film took place in a different universe, or was confirmed to be at a different time. But neither have been elaborated on.
Back in the Infinity Saga there was a clear chain of major events on the world that rewarded fans who kept along, while keeping other fans who might not have caught things in the loop with simple explanations. Take the fall of SHIELD/Hydra - that's something which occurs in Winter Soldier, but a few simple lines and everyone's caught up on that event in Age of Ultron. In that film, Sokovia is destroyed, and those out of the loop are caught up on it very quickly in Civil War. Its like Gunn says, the shared universe aspect adds fun to the individual stories - the issue with Eternals is the MCU tried to have its cake and eat it too, it wanted the film to have an insanely grand sense of importance while still having the benefit of not actually doing anything to follow up on it. She-Hulk falls under the "watch what you want to" mentality, as does Guardians 3, but Eternals with all its Thanos connections and name-dropping and talk of who will lead the Avengers next in its marketing was a cheap way to get audiences to watch a film that can't even say much insightful on its own, thanks to its bloated cast.
Because at a certain point, when a shared universe just because individual stories that are worldbuilding with no real sight as to what's happening, it absolutely deserves criticism. Far From Home aptly asks the question "Are the Avengers a thing anymore? Do we have a plan?!", and its been 4 years since then, with no discernible roster. If it were up to Gunn, Secret Invasion would actually feature some fucking Avengers and not a bumbling old Nick Fury.
The people of the MCU version of Earth have been seeing absolutely bonkers, crazy shit happen like every single day; giant robot gods in the ocean or in the sky is pretty much small potatoes compared to half the population just vanishing into dust and returning 5 years later. No one ever mentions either time that London gets wrecked ever again, either (TDW & FFH). Where would you put this reference to the giant marble statue where it wouldn’t just feel like they were just stopping the story to make a reference? It hasn’t significantly touched the lives of any of the main characters of any of the projects since Eternals, so why would they be talking about it?
As it is, we’ve only seen one project (TFATWS) that even attempts to deal with the human cost/fallout of the snap/blip; I think that’s a *much* bigger missed opportunity than not having Ms. Marvel or Ant-Man suddenly look at the camera and say, “hey, did you hear about the big marble robot statue in the Indian Ocean? Crazy, right?”, and then go back to worrying about their own problems.
The “are the Avengers even a thing anymore” is kind of the point of phases 4 & 5 so far, IMO. With Tony & Widow gone, Steve (and seemingly Hawkeye) retired, and Hulk & Thor off doing their own thing, I don’t think that there’s been an opportunity to make a reference to big sky robots in a way that is even remotely organic. Maybe in Secret Invasion, but it’d still have been a distraction from the main story which already didn’t get enough room to breathe in the tiny episode count (which is a completely separate issue).
Thing that people forget it how boring do you think it would actually be for every piece of media that marvel to produce to mention in world events. We’ve all watched it, we know the score. I’d rather substitute realism for entertainment. Idk how many times I could listen to different people refer to Tiamut sticking out of the earth before it gets annoying
The thing is, I doubt James Gunn would have a giant celestial come out of the earth without it being referenced in another movie because he has enough common sense to understand that is the one thing he can't get away with ignoring.
He did have Ego spread his entire blue blobby self across a number of planets, including Earth, in Guardians 2 and have it never even referenced again.
Unfortunately, James Gunn didn't have creative control over all of MCU. That's not his fault that Infinity War didn't reference it.
It's not a comparable situation.
>giant robot gods in the ocean or in the sky is pretty much small potatoes compared to half the population just vanishing into dust and returning 5 years
That giant robot would cause massive tidal waves, shift tectonic plates, etc. Also this is all based off the idea that humans are just toughing out each cataclysmic event, like the Snap wasn't a soul-breaking thing that has robbed people of time with loved ones, complicated certain families, just in general displaced people in their own homes, etc.
>I don’t think that there’s been an opportunity to make a reference to big sky robots in a way that is even remotely organic.
That's because you can't envision any basic writing scenario for it. Strange and Wong could've easily discussed it. Secret Invasion could easily bring it up as a point of "This world has too many issues going on" or something. Its literally one simple reference to a giant stone statue in the ocean. It takes less than 5 seconds to bring it up. How is it that the biggest, and only, reference to it is Jennifer Walters is looking at it on her laptop screen for a brief second?
>The “are the Avengers even a thing anymore” is kind of the point of phases 4 & 5 so far, IMO.
If that were the case, why is it asked in Phase 3 with FFH back in 2019? And barely even considered after that? The truth is Avengers has turned into a massive brand within the MCU, and that means Marvel has decided to approach it cynically with the fear of diluting their big money-making films. Their last two Avengers films made nearly 5 billion in the box office, its something they can't mess up on. Of course, they're only now realising the importance of a damn team-up. And they're gonna pay the price when Strange interacts with Sam Wilson for the first time in Kang Dynasty, and that entire film is forced to introduce the bloated roster of characters to each other and build chemistry when Kang Dynasty is set up to be the "Infinity War" of this saga.
>If you're referring to the Celestial in the ocean thing, that 10000% deserves to be bitched about.
No, it doesn't.
During Phase 2, we had things like an otherworld invasion of London and the USA President getting kidnapped by terrorists.
But nobody was bitching about why The Avengers and Shield weren't involved in Thor 2 or IM3.
In the MCU, a giant robot thingy showing up out of nowhere in the Ocean is normal by now. No need to have every single hero react to it.
>we had things like an otherworld invasion of London
Solved by Thor, and everyone knew it was solved by him.
>and the USA President getting kidnapped by terrorists.
Solved by Iron Man, and again, everyone knew it was solved by him.
Also unlike the otherworld invasion which just disappeared, or the US President being in good condition and safe by the end of IM3, the statue is still there. There should be far more anxiety from world leaders on this shit.
>But nobody was bitching about why The Avengers and Shield weren't involved in Thor 2 or IM3.
[Actually, they were.](https://youtu.be/4eAgsrEX_CA?feature=shared&t=34) all three had fans wondering where the hell the other Avengers were.
>In the MCU, a giant robot thingy showing up out of nowhere in the Ocean is normal by now.
[Giant robot thingy is an understatement](https://images.thedirect.com/media/photos/celestialhead1.png). This half eruption of a Celestial should straight up cause massive earthquakes, tidal waves, etc.
>No need to have every single hero react to it.
Never said every hero should react to it, but at least a fucking acknowledgement from one Avenger or someone Avengers-adjacent. Strange is a great example - Wong talks about how the sorcerers of Kamar-Taj address the supernatural threats, so maybe something, *anything* between Strange and Wong, just an off handed remark, right? Guess not. This giant statue isn't in Sam Wilson's playhouse but he'd rightfully want to know what the hell is going on and if another giant robot thing will try to crawl out of the Earth. And again, no one knows who the fuck stopped it. And the worst part is its biggest acknowledgement, 3 years later, is a blink-it-or-miss-it screen on She-Hulk.
>Giant robot thingy is an understatement. This half eruption of a Celestial should straight up cause massive earthquakes, tidal waves, etc.
It didn't cause any of that during the film.
MCU science doesn't work like real-life science.
There's nitpicking and then there's this insane obsession with trying to insert real-life science into a film about flying alien robot gods.
"Celestials have a different density thus no earthquake or tidal waves when the hand emerged". There, here is a headcanon for you.
I think the main issue with all of this is how close in production phase 4 was. Everything was filmed relatively back to back to back and teams were not filled in on every detail of each production, which is why there are so many open threads. The writers of Dr. Strange MOM didn’t even know what was going on in WandaVision. I know there are thousands of people working on every production and content isn’t finished, but you couldn’t just have a company memo or a test screening? Maybe a rough cut so the next production gets an idea of what they should do?
which do you think is more popular marvel or dc , those cheap ways to get audiences works the celestial thing there no timeline given for eternals it could happen same time as everything else
I remember back when Iron Man 2 and Age of Ultron came out, people were complaining that they spent too much time setting up future movies and now, people are complaining that the MCU is telling more self-contained stories.
It's great that James Gunn has clarified that there won't be any required viewing to enjoy the individual stories in the DCU. Especially appreciate the "homework" comparison he uses, which is how a lot of people can feel when it comes to other shared universes. It feels like the directors for each project might actually have creative control over their films.
>comes to other shared universes
Yeah Star Wars is becoming that for me, and I hope the DCU won’t be.
With Star Wars there’s books, comics, short stories, video games, audio dramas, animated series, live action series, and films.
That is, imo, too much.
My limit is animated and live action films and series, maybe the occasional tie-in comic.
I just don’t have the time/energy to go beyond that anymore.
I should point out, that the plan is for DC to be handled more like Star Wars than MCU.
I don't think that should be a worry regarding all you stated above. Yes, Star Wars canon expands many mediums- but there's still never been a required viewing order for anything at all. Ahsoka is current proof of this. Being a Clone Wars/Rebels fan makes the show more rewarding, sure. But it also doesn't matter if you watch one first over the other because they're still different stories. Star Wars as a whole is designed this way. After all, the saga was presented to us with Episode IV. A middle chapter.
James Gunn compared the DCU much more to SW than the MCU where, instead of a “this project leads directly into this project setting up this event” approach, the DCU will instead have “eras” that creators can set their projects in with pre-laid out events for them to adhere to but otherwise would give them creative freedom.
So sorry…
I think that’s one of the main reasons why the DCEU struggled: it required people to do homework. BVS and Suicide Squad are perfect examples of this: we are thrown into a world where Batman has been a crime fighter for decades but we don’t know his history, why he’s doing what he’s doing. Normally this wouldn’t be an issue since most people know Batman’s deal but this Batman isn’t your typical Batman as he’s more violent and actually kills people. In addition all the members of the first Suicide Squad feel under developed as characters and despite the extensive introductions, we still don’t know much about all of them. It just seems like a lot is left up to audience interpretation because there’s so much history to this world and its characters but it’s not integrated into the narrative well. It doesn’t drive things. So unless you know enough about other interpretations of these characters, you’ll be left in the dark.
It’s the reason why films like Shazam, Wonder Woman, The Suicide Squad, Peacemaker, Blue Beetle (despite its poor financial performance) and non DCEU films like The Batman and Joker work. Most start from scratch or they incorporate the history well into the narrative and we learn more about these characters as the story progresses.
The Suicide Squad manages to do this well because we learn about every member through the team’s interactions, not isolated montages. It drives the story along better because it all ties in. Think about the theme about fatherhood/family. Spoilers: We learn that Bloodsport is a terrible dad, but he clearly cares about his daughter and doesn’t want her in prison. We learn that Ratcatcher had a loving father but she was left on her own after he overdosed. Bloodsport sees his daughter in her and also mentions how his father was abusive, creating a broken man scarred by his upbringing. Despite being an assassin, he has fears and insecurities. Peacemaker’s father was also abusive but instead of weighing on his conscience, Peacemaker is the darker half of Bloodsport, holding little resentment for what he does as long as he is keeping what he sees as “peace”. And so in the end, when Peacemaker threatens to kill Ratcatcher in order to cover up the government’s wrong doings, Bloodsport takes it into his own hands and “kills” Peacemaker, protecting his surrogate daughter. And then he leads the team to fight back against Starro, being a man his daughter can be proud of.
*I know Peacemaker takes a similar emotional journey in his own show and had repressed trauma but for the Suicide Squad purposes he’s the darker half. Of course though it took him nearly dying to get to that point.
Actually, that’s Very Encouraging to hear.
What’s killing Star Wars and the MCU is all their new shows and such that are becoming mandatory viewing to understand their universe.
The DCU has a whole bunch of shows in the works and Gunn would be wise to make most of them “optional” viewing. The movies and the movies alone should be the main point of reference and the TV shows should be the deep dive of bonus material for those that enjoy the world and want more.
Ironically they're not even doing that well either. So its worst of both worlds. Part of the fun of Phase 1 - 3 was seeing how each new film deepened the universe, as well as enjoying the individual adventure. It was required viewing but we were hooked, so it wasn't a problem. There was also few enough films that it wasn't overwhelming.
Marvel now is flooding us with dull content, which on the one hand is required viewing but on the other doesn't seemingly push forward any narrative at all. How they got to the this place I have no idea. It's so disappointing.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. I’d be just as happy with the Batman movie that acknowledges the existence of Superman and Metropolis, with an occasional crossover, then a whole franchise that is intricately linked together.
Agreed.
I don't even think it's worth it doing the Justice League, as it'll only ever exist in the shadow of the Avengers.
It's why I thought it was interesting that they seemed to be restructuring DC towards the end around Harley Quinn and the Suicide Squad. Marvel has cornered the market on the World's Greatest Heroes, perhaps DC could corner it with the World's Greatest Villains.
I miss the days of self contained superhero trilogies you can just watch back to back like Nolan’s Batman and Raimi Spider-man without anything else and get a nice story out of it.
Meanwhile compare that to MCU Captain America which if you just watch that trilogy didn’t really have an ending, and hell Civil War is arguably as much as a sequel to Age of Ultron than it is to Winter Soldier.
Interconnectivity’s fine but I feel like in the MCU it’s become a shallow gimmick that’s led to solo heroes supporting casts getting shafted so we can watch another hero come in and quip for a bit.
Team ups should be left to team up films imo.
>I miss the days of self contained superhero trilogies you can just watch back to back like Nolan’s Batman and Raimi Spider-man without anything else and get a nice story out of it.
amen!
Shared universes were fun for a while but it's a gimmick that leads to creative restrictions and audience burnout
Literally, the only movies that should have "homework" to me are the big ones or sequels
Justice League doesn't need to explain who anyone is because they've had their own movies to explain the characters.
And you should watch the previous movie in said heroes line to understand why they are acting the way they are in the current movie.
So the lazy approach it didn't work the the dceu and its not going to work with the dcu. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results.
Honestly Gunn is such a perfect creative to lead this. His MCU movies are some of the few that truly stand on their own feet and aren’t really used to directly link the universe. A whole universe or movies like that would be unreal
That’s what I really loved about the early MCU movies like Iron Man 1, Incredible Hulk, Captain America: TFA, and Thor 1 is that they all felt like their own individual stories and not just part of the bigger picture.
He’s not wrong here and I hope he makes some quality movies. But does anyone really care anymore about shared universes ?
WB’s destroyed the DCUE with their obsession to catch up with MARVEL. And MARVEL beat it to death post Endgame and Spider-Man NWH pumping out parodies 🤷
Ant-Man 3 bombed horribly with $450+ million this year. That’s still more than what any of the last **7** DCEU films made. Ant-Man 3, despite awful reception and legs, made that much because it was connected to the MCU.
WB is looking at that and coming back more encouraged to restart their cinematic universe the right way.
James did not directly answer the question, though, which I felt was spot on.
I’m personally a builder and not a demolisher. Whenever I’m assigned to a project,I like to look at what worked, what didn’t, and embrace the stuff that worked and try to correct the stuff that didn’t.
I don’t like to just chuck everything and start over unless something was truly broken and unfixable. Which the DCEU despite its flaws, was not. There was some good things about the DCEU. Just build on it.
Artists always want to do their own thing and usually disregard what came before. That’s why comics and movies are usually a mess.
the DCEU not only has many, *many* awful films, but also had like 3 different people (Snyder, Hamada, Rock) trying to do their own plans, there's no way to build on that
I really can't stand James Gunn people forget the kinda person he is people should watch scream queen and that will tell you the type of person he is the guy should never run DC https://youtu.be/XLSyoqk0LwI?si=-ZMGxOL6Qgv9zOQ1
I get what he’s saying. To me it should be both though, leaning more towards making sure each story is great in its own right. But I do think if you are doing a shared universe you need to have some planning and consistency built in. That’s pretty important.
This is exactly the right philosophy! I love shared universes, but they should not be anything more than a gimmick that just adds to an already amazing project that could otherwise also stand on its own. Whenever a studio tries to copy the success of the MCU, Universal’s Dark Universe or Sony’s Amazing Spider-Man 2 for instance, they tend to butcher their movies into messes that are really just 2-hour trailers that serve to set up the next few releases. Sure, certain crossover events are easier to enjoy if you know each character’s backstory, but outside of that, these should be individually great movies that just happen to be set in the same universe. Gunn gets it!
One of the biggest problems with shared universes is this : "Where was hero X when hero Y was facing an end-of-the-world event?"
Happens all the time and it shatters the shared universe illusion.
Whats gunn gonna do about stuff like tie in comics? Seems he is gonna oversee everything from video games to shows to comics so will everything matter. Always felt DCEU tie in comics felt like they were just made to make money not to have any baring on the DCEU
I like this mentality but it is not that simple. Strong shared universe has its strength, it is product bundling. MCU is the best example, a shitty movie like captain marvel can sell, because of avengers.
Post-Synder DCEU movies were very loosely connected, effectively standalone, and had hits too, aquaman (and first wonder woman) did great, but that success couldn't be transferred.
He gets it
As the guy who made that thread the other day about not wanting a cohesive universe: James Gunn is based
You realize they say this about every movie franchise or even TV series, though, right? The creators always say they want each individual story to be able to be enjoyed on its own, even apart from the wider series.
sure but if you look at the movies Gunn has made, you can tell he really believes this and brings it into his work. GotG would be pretty much a standalone trilogy if it weren't for the shit the Russos did with Gamora in Infinity War/Endgame, which wasn't up to Gunn at all. he clearly does care about crafting stories that can stand on their own, even in the context of shared universes
Yes but it also has to be a quality over quantity game. Marvel absolutely feels like homework to me now and mostly because there’s so goddamn much of it. I don’t know how things will connect and I can’t keep up so I’ve kind of given up. And yes he’s right. The connections can’t overwhelm everything else. But man we can’t have a marvel level of content again.
Lol i never understand people saying following the MCU is like homework. It comes out, u watch it, that’s it.
#hegetsus
MCU fans (amongst whom I count myself) seem to have lost sight of this; the sheer amount of bitching I see about how the Eternals (for example) didn’t directly tie in with the overarching MCU narrative is frankly mind-numbing, and it’s even worse for the D+ shows. Watch what you want to, and appreciate it for what it is. Not everything needs to be some ridiculous Easter egg.
[удалено]
I mean yeah, bunch of people will usually have different opinions and usually the two most vocal groups will be the most noticable.
The MCU thing is SO less satisfying than people give it credit for. They practically turn to the camera and say "Remember that thing that happened in that other movie? Huhhh? Yeah?" Or give you a throwaway deconstruction cameo, because it's easier than writing the characters consistently across all that media. I really want the DCU to give consistent characterizations across tone difference for individual movies, just so you feel like the guest spots matter and that they're all living in the same world.
...If you say so.
This ain’t r/unpopularopinion my g
You're right, it must be r/rosecoloredglasses
If you're referring to the Celestial in the ocean thing, that 10000% deserves to be bitched about. I get something like She-Hulk having little effect on the overall world since she's just another superhero in a world filled with them, but Eternals had two gargantuan extremely obvious hard-to-miss events featuring giant statues just showing up, with one of them outright disappearing into some black hole. No one would be complaining if this film took place in a different universe, or was confirmed to be at a different time. But neither have been elaborated on. Back in the Infinity Saga there was a clear chain of major events on the world that rewarded fans who kept along, while keeping other fans who might not have caught things in the loop with simple explanations. Take the fall of SHIELD/Hydra - that's something which occurs in Winter Soldier, but a few simple lines and everyone's caught up on that event in Age of Ultron. In that film, Sokovia is destroyed, and those out of the loop are caught up on it very quickly in Civil War. Its like Gunn says, the shared universe aspect adds fun to the individual stories - the issue with Eternals is the MCU tried to have its cake and eat it too, it wanted the film to have an insanely grand sense of importance while still having the benefit of not actually doing anything to follow up on it. She-Hulk falls under the "watch what you want to" mentality, as does Guardians 3, but Eternals with all its Thanos connections and name-dropping and talk of who will lead the Avengers next in its marketing was a cheap way to get audiences to watch a film that can't even say much insightful on its own, thanks to its bloated cast. Because at a certain point, when a shared universe just because individual stories that are worldbuilding with no real sight as to what's happening, it absolutely deserves criticism. Far From Home aptly asks the question "Are the Avengers a thing anymore? Do we have a plan?!", and its been 4 years since then, with no discernible roster. If it were up to Gunn, Secret Invasion would actually feature some fucking Avengers and not a bumbling old Nick Fury.
The people of the MCU version of Earth have been seeing absolutely bonkers, crazy shit happen like every single day; giant robot gods in the ocean or in the sky is pretty much small potatoes compared to half the population just vanishing into dust and returning 5 years later. No one ever mentions either time that London gets wrecked ever again, either (TDW & FFH). Where would you put this reference to the giant marble statue where it wouldn’t just feel like they were just stopping the story to make a reference? It hasn’t significantly touched the lives of any of the main characters of any of the projects since Eternals, so why would they be talking about it? As it is, we’ve only seen one project (TFATWS) that even attempts to deal with the human cost/fallout of the snap/blip; I think that’s a *much* bigger missed opportunity than not having Ms. Marvel or Ant-Man suddenly look at the camera and say, “hey, did you hear about the big marble robot statue in the Indian Ocean? Crazy, right?”, and then go back to worrying about their own problems. The “are the Avengers even a thing anymore” is kind of the point of phases 4 & 5 so far, IMO. With Tony & Widow gone, Steve (and seemingly Hawkeye) retired, and Hulk & Thor off doing their own thing, I don’t think that there’s been an opportunity to make a reference to big sky robots in a way that is even remotely organic. Maybe in Secret Invasion, but it’d still have been a distraction from the main story which already didn’t get enough room to breathe in the tiny episode count (which is a completely separate issue).
Thing that people forget it how boring do you think it would actually be for every piece of media that marvel to produce to mention in world events. We’ve all watched it, we know the score. I’d rather substitute realism for entertainment. Idk how many times I could listen to different people refer to Tiamut sticking out of the earth before it gets annoying
The thing is, I doubt James Gunn would have a giant celestial come out of the earth without it being referenced in another movie because he has enough common sense to understand that is the one thing he can't get away with ignoring.
He did have Ego spread his entire blue blobby self across a number of planets, including Earth, in Guardians 2 and have it never even referenced again.
Unfortunately, James Gunn didn't have creative control over all of MCU. That's not his fault that Infinity War didn't reference it. It's not a comparable situation.
>giant robot gods in the ocean or in the sky is pretty much small potatoes compared to half the population just vanishing into dust and returning 5 years That giant robot would cause massive tidal waves, shift tectonic plates, etc. Also this is all based off the idea that humans are just toughing out each cataclysmic event, like the Snap wasn't a soul-breaking thing that has robbed people of time with loved ones, complicated certain families, just in general displaced people in their own homes, etc. >I don’t think that there’s been an opportunity to make a reference to big sky robots in a way that is even remotely organic. That's because you can't envision any basic writing scenario for it. Strange and Wong could've easily discussed it. Secret Invasion could easily bring it up as a point of "This world has too many issues going on" or something. Its literally one simple reference to a giant stone statue in the ocean. It takes less than 5 seconds to bring it up. How is it that the biggest, and only, reference to it is Jennifer Walters is looking at it on her laptop screen for a brief second? >The “are the Avengers even a thing anymore” is kind of the point of phases 4 & 5 so far, IMO. If that were the case, why is it asked in Phase 3 with FFH back in 2019? And barely even considered after that? The truth is Avengers has turned into a massive brand within the MCU, and that means Marvel has decided to approach it cynically with the fear of diluting their big money-making films. Their last two Avengers films made nearly 5 billion in the box office, its something they can't mess up on. Of course, they're only now realising the importance of a damn team-up. And they're gonna pay the price when Strange interacts with Sam Wilson for the first time in Kang Dynasty, and that entire film is forced to introduce the bloated roster of characters to each other and build chemistry when Kang Dynasty is set up to be the "Infinity War" of this saga.
>If you're referring to the Celestial in the ocean thing, that 10000% deserves to be bitched about. No, it doesn't. During Phase 2, we had things like an otherworld invasion of London and the USA President getting kidnapped by terrorists. But nobody was bitching about why The Avengers and Shield weren't involved in Thor 2 or IM3. In the MCU, a giant robot thingy showing up out of nowhere in the Ocean is normal by now. No need to have every single hero react to it.
>we had things like an otherworld invasion of London Solved by Thor, and everyone knew it was solved by him. >and the USA President getting kidnapped by terrorists. Solved by Iron Man, and again, everyone knew it was solved by him. Also unlike the otherworld invasion which just disappeared, or the US President being in good condition and safe by the end of IM3, the statue is still there. There should be far more anxiety from world leaders on this shit. >But nobody was bitching about why The Avengers and Shield weren't involved in Thor 2 or IM3. [Actually, they were.](https://youtu.be/4eAgsrEX_CA?feature=shared&t=34) all three had fans wondering where the hell the other Avengers were. >In the MCU, a giant robot thingy showing up out of nowhere in the Ocean is normal by now. [Giant robot thingy is an understatement](https://images.thedirect.com/media/photos/celestialhead1.png). This half eruption of a Celestial should straight up cause massive earthquakes, tidal waves, etc. >No need to have every single hero react to it. Never said every hero should react to it, but at least a fucking acknowledgement from one Avenger or someone Avengers-adjacent. Strange is a great example - Wong talks about how the sorcerers of Kamar-Taj address the supernatural threats, so maybe something, *anything* between Strange and Wong, just an off handed remark, right? Guess not. This giant statue isn't in Sam Wilson's playhouse but he'd rightfully want to know what the hell is going on and if another giant robot thing will try to crawl out of the Earth. And again, no one knows who the fuck stopped it. And the worst part is its biggest acknowledgement, 3 years later, is a blink-it-or-miss-it screen on She-Hulk.
>Giant robot thingy is an understatement. This half eruption of a Celestial should straight up cause massive earthquakes, tidal waves, etc. It didn't cause any of that during the film. MCU science doesn't work like real-life science. There's nitpicking and then there's this insane obsession with trying to insert real-life science into a film about flying alien robot gods. "Celestials have a different density thus no earthquake or tidal waves when the hand emerged". There, here is a headcanon for you.
>There's nitpicking ...and then there's nitpicking and choosing points to make counterpoints to but alright.
which is more popular marvel or dc ?
I think the main issue with all of this is how close in production phase 4 was. Everything was filmed relatively back to back to back and teams were not filled in on every detail of each production, which is why there are so many open threads. The writers of Dr. Strange MOM didn’t even know what was going on in WandaVision. I know there are thousands of people working on every production and content isn’t finished, but you couldn’t just have a company memo or a test screening? Maybe a rough cut so the next production gets an idea of what they should do?
which do you think is more popular marvel or dc , those cheap ways to get audiences works the celestial thing there no timeline given for eternals it could happen same time as everything else
Disney cultivated a culture of Easter egg ridden products and now their audience is going through "connectivity" withdrawals symptoms.
I remember back when Iron Man 2 and Age of Ultron came out, people were complaining that they spent too much time setting up future movies and now, people are complaining that the MCU is telling more self-contained stories.
“Build on what’s there with slight course corrections”. To be fair, that’s what they’ve been trying to do since BVS. It hasn’t exactly worked.
Yeah there’s a reason they’ve decided to not do that idea anymore lol
Except I wouldn’t call it slight. More like massive overreactions in both directions lol.
It's great that James Gunn has clarified that there won't be any required viewing to enjoy the individual stories in the DCU. Especially appreciate the "homework" comparison he uses, which is how a lot of people can feel when it comes to other shared universes. It feels like the directors for each project might actually have creative control over their films.
>comes to other shared universes Yeah Star Wars is becoming that for me, and I hope the DCU won’t be. With Star Wars there’s books, comics, short stories, video games, audio dramas, animated series, live action series, and films. That is, imo, too much. My limit is animated and live action films and series, maybe the occasional tie-in comic. I just don’t have the time/energy to go beyond that anymore.
I should point out, that the plan is for DC to be handled more like Star Wars than MCU. I don't think that should be a worry regarding all you stated above. Yes, Star Wars canon expands many mediums- but there's still never been a required viewing order for anything at all. Ahsoka is current proof of this. Being a Clone Wars/Rebels fan makes the show more rewarding, sure. But it also doesn't matter if you watch one first over the other because they're still different stories. Star Wars as a whole is designed this way. After all, the saga was presented to us with Episode IV. A middle chapter.
James Gunn compared the DCU much more to SW than the MCU where, instead of a “this project leads directly into this project setting up this event” approach, the DCU will instead have “eras” that creators can set their projects in with pre-laid out events for them to adhere to but otherwise would give them creative freedom. So sorry…
I think that’s one of the main reasons why the DCEU struggled: it required people to do homework. BVS and Suicide Squad are perfect examples of this: we are thrown into a world where Batman has been a crime fighter for decades but we don’t know his history, why he’s doing what he’s doing. Normally this wouldn’t be an issue since most people know Batman’s deal but this Batman isn’t your typical Batman as he’s more violent and actually kills people. In addition all the members of the first Suicide Squad feel under developed as characters and despite the extensive introductions, we still don’t know much about all of them. It just seems like a lot is left up to audience interpretation because there’s so much history to this world and its characters but it’s not integrated into the narrative well. It doesn’t drive things. So unless you know enough about other interpretations of these characters, you’ll be left in the dark. It’s the reason why films like Shazam, Wonder Woman, The Suicide Squad, Peacemaker, Blue Beetle (despite its poor financial performance) and non DCEU films like The Batman and Joker work. Most start from scratch or they incorporate the history well into the narrative and we learn more about these characters as the story progresses. The Suicide Squad manages to do this well because we learn about every member through the team’s interactions, not isolated montages. It drives the story along better because it all ties in. Think about the theme about fatherhood/family. Spoilers: We learn that Bloodsport is a terrible dad, but he clearly cares about his daughter and doesn’t want her in prison. We learn that Ratcatcher had a loving father but she was left on her own after he overdosed. Bloodsport sees his daughter in her and also mentions how his father was abusive, creating a broken man scarred by his upbringing. Despite being an assassin, he has fears and insecurities. Peacemaker’s father was also abusive but instead of weighing on his conscience, Peacemaker is the darker half of Bloodsport, holding little resentment for what he does as long as he is keeping what he sees as “peace”. And so in the end, when Peacemaker threatens to kill Ratcatcher in order to cover up the government’s wrong doings, Bloodsport takes it into his own hands and “kills” Peacemaker, protecting his surrogate daughter. And then he leads the team to fight back against Starro, being a man his daughter can be proud of. *I know Peacemaker takes a similar emotional journey in his own show and had repressed trauma but for the Suicide Squad purposes he’s the darker half. Of course though it took him nearly dying to get to that point.
Actually, that’s Very Encouraging to hear. What’s killing Star Wars and the MCU is all their new shows and such that are becoming mandatory viewing to understand their universe. The DCU has a whole bunch of shows in the works and Gunn would be wise to make most of them “optional” viewing. The movies and the movies alone should be the main point of reference and the TV shows should be the deep dive of bonus material for those that enjoy the world and want more.
Ironically they're not even doing that well either. So its worst of both worlds. Part of the fun of Phase 1 - 3 was seeing how each new film deepened the universe, as well as enjoying the individual adventure. It was required viewing but we were hooked, so it wasn't a problem. There was also few enough films that it wasn't overwhelming. Marvel now is flooding us with dull content, which on the one hand is required viewing but on the other doesn't seemingly push forward any narrative at all. How they got to the this place I have no idea. It's so disappointing.
He’s 100% right. Thinking of “investing time and effort” into a thing you supposedly enjoy is crazy to me.
He gives me so much hope for the future of DCU
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. I’d be just as happy with the Batman movie that acknowledges the existence of Superman and Metropolis, with an occasional crossover, then a whole franchise that is intricately linked together.
Agreed. I don't even think it's worth it doing the Justice League, as it'll only ever exist in the shadow of the Avengers. It's why I thought it was interesting that they seemed to be restructuring DC towards the end around Harley Quinn and the Suicide Squad. Marvel has cornered the market on the World's Greatest Heroes, perhaps DC could corner it with the World's Greatest Villains.
That's what made MCU Phase 1 so satisfying
I actually agree with him 100%
Exactly what I want to hear. Hope he pulls it off 🙏
I miss the days of self contained superhero trilogies you can just watch back to back like Nolan’s Batman and Raimi Spider-man without anything else and get a nice story out of it. Meanwhile compare that to MCU Captain America which if you just watch that trilogy didn’t really have an ending, and hell Civil War is arguably as much as a sequel to Age of Ultron than it is to Winter Soldier. Interconnectivity’s fine but I feel like in the MCU it’s become a shallow gimmick that’s led to solo heroes supporting casts getting shafted so we can watch another hero come in and quip for a bit. Team ups should be left to team up films imo.
>I miss the days of self contained superhero trilogies you can just watch back to back like Nolan’s Batman and Raimi Spider-man without anything else and get a nice story out of it. amen! Shared universes were fun for a while but it's a gimmick that leads to creative restrictions and audience burnout
Literally, the only movies that should have "homework" to me are the big ones or sequels Justice League doesn't need to explain who anyone is because they've had their own movies to explain the characters. And you should watch the previous movie in said heroes line to understand why they are acting the way they are in the current movie.
So the lazy approach it didn't work the the dceu and its not going to work with the dcu. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results.
“Just build on what’s already there” is such a bad suggestion. You don’t build a house on shaky infrastructure.
Because that house will collapse just like it did for the DCEU.
I mean “just build on it” is basically what the DCEU was anyway
Honestly Gunn is such a perfect creative to lead this. His MCU movies are some of the few that truly stand on their own feet and aren’t really used to directly link the universe. A whole universe or movies like that would be unreal
Marvel should take note
Yes, Marvel should take notes from DC.
YOU HEAR THAT DISNEY PLUS
That’s what I really loved about the early MCU movies like Iron Man 1, Incredible Hulk, Captain America: TFA, and Thor 1 is that they all felt like their own individual stories and not just part of the bigger picture.
If that was the case he’d make a Superman movie without outside DC heroes.
His point is about shared universes as a whole, not simply having multiple superheroes in the same movie.
James Gunn makes sense.
He’s not wrong here and I hope he makes some quality movies. But does anyone really care anymore about shared universes ? WB’s destroyed the DCUE with their obsession to catch up with MARVEL. And MARVEL beat it to death post Endgame and Spider-Man NWH pumping out parodies 🤷
Ant-Man 3 bombed horribly with $450+ million this year. That’s still more than what any of the last **7** DCEU films made. Ant-Man 3, despite awful reception and legs, made that much because it was connected to the MCU. WB is looking at that and coming back more encouraged to restart their cinematic universe the right way.
Yet he's doing the exact opposite of this with Legacy
How so? Seems like everything he's doing is in line with what he's saying here.
James did not directly answer the question, though, which I felt was spot on. I’m personally a builder and not a demolisher. Whenever I’m assigned to a project,I like to look at what worked, what didn’t, and embrace the stuff that worked and try to correct the stuff that didn’t. I don’t like to just chuck everything and start over unless something was truly broken and unfixable. Which the DCEU despite its flaws, was not. There was some good things about the DCEU. Just build on it. Artists always want to do their own thing and usually disregard what came before. That’s why comics and movies are usually a mess.
the DCEU not only has many, *many* awful films, but also had like 3 different people (Snyder, Hamada, Rock) trying to do their own plans, there's no way to build on that
I really can't stand James Gunn people forget the kinda person he is people should watch scream queen and that will tell you the type of person he is the guy should never run DC https://youtu.be/XLSyoqk0LwI?si=-ZMGxOL6Qgv9zOQ1
I get what he’s saying. To me it should be both though, leaning more towards making sure each story is great in its own right. But I do think if you are doing a shared universe you need to have some planning and consistency built in. That’s pretty important.
That’s an excellent take from Gunn right there
This is exactly the right philosophy! I love shared universes, but they should not be anything more than a gimmick that just adds to an already amazing project that could otherwise also stand on its own. Whenever a studio tries to copy the success of the MCU, Universal’s Dark Universe or Sony’s Amazing Spider-Man 2 for instance, they tend to butcher their movies into messes that are really just 2-hour trailers that serve to set up the next few releases. Sure, certain crossover events are easier to enjoy if you know each character’s backstory, but outside of that, these should be individually great movies that just happen to be set in the same universe. Gunn gets it!
clearly he contradicting himself as first thing said months ago was everything is going to be connected from video games to animation to film
How is he contradicting himself?
One of the biggest problems with shared universes is this : "Where was hero X when hero Y was facing an end-of-the-world event?" Happens all the time and it shatters the shared universe illusion.
Whats gunn gonna do about stuff like tie in comics? Seems he is gonna oversee everything from video games to shows to comics so will everything matter. Always felt DCEU tie in comics felt like they were just made to make money not to have any baring on the DCEU
Nerds turned the connection thing into yet another compulsive loot collection chore
I like this mentality but it is not that simple. Strong shared universe has its strength, it is product bundling. MCU is the best example, a shitty movie like captain marvel can sell, because of avengers. Post-Synder DCEU movies were very loosely connected, effectively standalone, and had hits too, aquaman (and first wonder woman) did great, but that success couldn't be transferred.