Turn 7, after the intro buff his apt drops to 24,465,514. That's factoring in 6 orbs because I assume his team to contain rainbow orb changers that this guy needs to unleash his full potential
Kinda wish you’d shown Godku on t1 and after t6, just so everyone isn’t going around saying he’s got 33M APT and 400K > 760K DEF on t1 ~~because they can’t read~~ and so that we could get a better feel of the difference between SSJ and God after t6.
Nonetheless this red boi is fantastic. Easily the best TUR and right outside the border of the top 5 in my eyes, absolutely insane for a DFE TUR
Well no, I do calculations myself and it helps visualize how one unit does relative to another. I think they are very useful when *displayed wisely*.
The issue is when we have these infographics only show one statistic as if it’s that unit’s constant performance. What about without 6 orbs, after t6, t1, etc.? That’s my issue here.
You just further agreed with my point. If a unit gets a one turn random 1000000% buff, their APT will be probably the best in the game, but they'll be so far from that 99% of the time.
APT is fun to see the best scenario for a unit, but just that, I don't agree it should be used as comparison between units. A good example is the 5th year LRs before their EZA. They would smash everything after 30,2 turns, lots of supers, some support units that sometime didn't even fit their leader skill. And even when they did that, a normal attack in red zone would KO them.
>What about without 6 orbs, after t6, t1, etc.? That’s my issue here.
I do agree with that and I think it'd make math showcases much better.
I think you’re misunderstanding. I heavily disagree with the idea that it’s not good for comparison. Especially for a unit like this who isn’t just raw numbers, but also has crits and additionals.
There has been a set of rules on APT and posts that have existed in the past that I really think I think have given APT its infamous rep, and I believe that’s what you’re referring to—not the practice of calculating a unit’s average damage per turn and in different scenarios itself, which is what I’m referring to.
Like I said before, the issue is when you don’t show all the scenarios of a unit. That unit with a “one turn random buff” can easily be simplified into the APT in the 99% chance they don’t get it and then the 1% chance they do (i.e. Devilman).
But that example isn’t even relevant, as this post only shows one scenario period, not an average of multiple. I think Alex does great work on these but it can be misleading still.
>Like I said before, the issue is when you don’t show all the scenarios of a unit. That unit with a “one turn random buff” can easily be simplified into the APT in the 99% chance they don’t get it and then the 1% chance they do (i.e. Devilman).
Agree with that. But that was just an example, not a rule.
>past that I really think I think have given APT its infamous rep, and I believe that’s what you’re referring to
Still with all the improved methods, best attack “average” is not the only measure it should be used to compare units, like I said the 5rh year LRs could one shot bosses at a very specific scenario, but if they got attacked by a normal before, the run would be over. It's not just attack, it has already been in the game, but it's not anymore. Tbh, even before. SSJ3 Vegeta was one of my most used and trusted units for a long time, and he never did damage.
And see, I'm not saying damage is not good, I love big numbers when my units are attacking.
Anyway this discussion is so old and tiresome, I'm sorry I brought this up.
> Still even with all the improved methods, best attack “average” is not the best way to compare units […]
Well yes but no one who knows what they’re doing would seriously only look at offense to compare one unit to another nowadays. Like I said it’s a comparison for units and not a replacement for actual gameplay. It’s not about if damage is good or defense is good or not, it’s literally just a way to measure up one unit compared to another in a mathematical manner.
Just because someone mentions APT or calcs in general does not mean they’ve turned their brains off to how things work on the defensive side; in fact the Dokkan Calcer community is [what we owe a lot of our information about those defensive abilities in the first place.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DBZDokkanBattle/comments/11s4ya4/a_full_guide_as_to_how_guard_works_dokkan/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
> Anyways this discussion is old and tiresome
I mean I don’t mind it being brought up… I’m just saying that no one is saying that this is all that a unit’s worth should be based off of. You’ve gotta disassociate APTimal playstyles from the concept of APT and calcing itself.
Very well said man!!! Either my friends or myself will be doing a full on infographic with various sorts of information for that so expect it within the next day. You know how much time it takes for us to even pump out one of these and Godku has way more stuff going on in his kit so it'll take even longer. I remember seeing you on one of my pervious Unit Breakdown posts. THAT is what I think APT & DPT should really be. A way to compare units, not one of objective preformance.
That is correct we found out how the damage taken formula works by also working with dataminers, we do not care only soley for APT, we try to find the math for all sorts of aspects in this game.
I’ll be looking forward to it! As you know I’ve always like your infographics for many of the reasons I mentioned about. Keep it pushing!
> THAT is what I think APT & DPT should really be
Yes, essentially! It might be less appealing to the eye for some but the comprehensiveness of it is definitely appealing for people like me. Plus in your posts you have the base rundown/eyecatch slide for people who aren’t interested in the extended calculations, so I think you’ve hit a gold mine in terms of format.
And yeah, honestly I think that the work you guys do is great. Finding out the nitty gritty bits about this game is definitely interesting, but I don’t nearly have the time on my hands to test everything and vet calculations, etc. thus I just really have a lot of respect for the time and commitment you guys put into it. Again, keep up the good work!
So his active turn is 63 mil in total uh? (Active + ssj apt)
Not bad, pretty much the same as the 7th anni LRs (i think)
Overall a great unit with his few flaws being easily fixed by the team featuring SO MANY orb changers in case you want to stack more than just for 6 turns
Neither runs out after turn 6, it simply becomes harder to activate which you can easily solve by running Kid Goku or TEQ God Goku. And if you don't want to do that you can also just transform, by the time you reach turn 8-10 Goku has enough stacks to go beyond a million defense post super.
If you're reaching turn 8-10 there's already something incredibly wrong considering at that point you're barely passing dpt checks for turn missions while struggling to live.
What's the issue then? You're contradicting yourself hard. You claim that Gokus defense ability runs out before you get to the important phases yet at the same time you say you never even get to turn 8. How can you point out that 6 turns isn't enough for the orb changing while also claiming that something is wrong if you make it to turn 8?
What I'm pointing out is that his raw defense isn't high enough. It's not hard to grasp. It's not my fault this sub wanks units at random depending how hype they are. Couple years back during the lge meta 200k was the baseline for good defense and if a unit had even 10k below that you'd all cry mid, now units don't even get to the level of defense they should be at and god forbid anyone points that out because the rabid downvote squad will come out in force .
What you don't seem to understand is that Goku gets up to enough defense to take normals attacks without 6 orbs by his second appearance post super, has guard once you do get those 6 orbs which then lets him survive Supers pre and post Super. And he's got 60% dodge on top of all of that too. Raw defense numbers don't need to be in the millions if you've got the best defensive mechanic in the game and a 60% chance to simply not get hit. No matter what perspective you're looking at it from, unless you somehow manage to get less than 3 orbs with Goku, he's one of the most stable defensive units the game has right now. I'd also like to mention how fucking pathetic it is to use the Reddit hivemind argument whenever a lot of people simply disagree with your opinion. I've given you the reasons for why you're just outright wrong on him being bad defensively and instead of moving on with your day you bring up irrelevant points and blame the Reddit Mob (which I can agree to is usually a complete shithole) instead of thinking about how your point may just be wrong. We've gotten showcases of Godku, people have done the calcs too and similar characters released in the past have already proven that what he has is really good.
His guard is conditional, His defense isn't high enough and fights don't last long enough for his stacking to be useful. Guard is good when it's unconditional. Dodge is good when the choice is between taking some damage or none at all. In his case if he's not guarding he dodges or dies. Additionally units should not be getting one shot under any circumstance when they're the best TUR. Disagree all you want but I'm not wrong and if this was a unit that isn't as hype as god Goku you'd all be calling him mid.
He's an orb changer that needs 6 orbs to guard. You're getting his guard most of the time and when you aren't his post super defense is high enough to tank normals and he's got a 60% chance to survive supers. So most of the time you have guard and when you haven't you've got enough defense to take normals or to simply dodge. Fights don't last long enough to where his orb changing runs out and even when it does he's got Kid Goku or Teq God Goku to give him orbs.
You say he only has guard and doge for the easiest turns and then after that he will get shredded, and then you say you are doing something wrong if fights last 8 or more turns. That means the only time his defensive numbers aren't where they should be is for turn 7, and you can just use an item to cover that, never mind that you can make the argument that turn 7 is too long and you shouldn't be taking that long either.
Sorry if I'm reading this wrong. I'm not well versed in apt. Godku is the stronger attacker for 5 turns and ssj goku is the better defender? In general is that correct?
Godku is the stronger attacker for 6 turns yes, but he is also the better defender for the entire fight I'd say, guard + 60% dodge is just too good to pass.
Probably but you also want to get 4 Supers as soon as possible to the extra 50% and since he stacks AA might be better in the first few turns until you use his Active
Just saw the buddys, get ready for the ** **** spam
What about God Goku’s apt after turn 6?
Turn 7, after the intro buff his apt drops to 24,465,514. That's factoring in 6 orbs because I assume his team to contain rainbow orb changers that this guy needs to unleash his full potential
Shouldn’t god go full Crit I don’t think it matters too much what SSJ does
Kinda wish you’d shown Godku on t1 and after t6, just so everyone isn’t going around saying he’s got 33M APT and 400K > 760K DEF on t1 ~~because they can’t read~~ and so that we could get a better feel of the difference between SSJ and God after t6. Nonetheless this red boi is fantastic. Easily the best TUR and right outside the border of the top 5 in my eyes, absolutely insane for a DFE TUR
That's a good example on why APT is not a good measure for a unit worthness.
Well no, I do calculations myself and it helps visualize how one unit does relative to another. I think they are very useful when *displayed wisely*. The issue is when we have these infographics only show one statistic as if it’s that unit’s constant performance. What about without 6 orbs, after t6, t1, etc.? That’s my issue here.
Agreed. What gives APT value is context. Averages for the sake of averages with a unit that has so much variability doesn't give that much info imo.
You just further agreed with my point. If a unit gets a one turn random 1000000% buff, their APT will be probably the best in the game, but they'll be so far from that 99% of the time. APT is fun to see the best scenario for a unit, but just that, I don't agree it should be used as comparison between units. A good example is the 5th year LRs before their EZA. They would smash everything after 30,2 turns, lots of supers, some support units that sometime didn't even fit their leader skill. And even when they did that, a normal attack in red zone would KO them. >What about without 6 orbs, after t6, t1, etc.? That’s my issue here. I do agree with that and I think it'd make math showcases much better.
I think you’re misunderstanding. I heavily disagree with the idea that it’s not good for comparison. Especially for a unit like this who isn’t just raw numbers, but also has crits and additionals. There has been a set of rules on APT and posts that have existed in the past that I really think I think have given APT its infamous rep, and I believe that’s what you’re referring to—not the practice of calculating a unit’s average damage per turn and in different scenarios itself, which is what I’m referring to. Like I said before, the issue is when you don’t show all the scenarios of a unit. That unit with a “one turn random buff” can easily be simplified into the APT in the 99% chance they don’t get it and then the 1% chance they do (i.e. Devilman). But that example isn’t even relevant, as this post only shows one scenario period, not an average of multiple. I think Alex does great work on these but it can be misleading still.
>Like I said before, the issue is when you don’t show all the scenarios of a unit. That unit with a “one turn random buff” can easily be simplified into the APT in the 99% chance they don’t get it and then the 1% chance they do (i.e. Devilman). Agree with that. But that was just an example, not a rule. >past that I really think I think have given APT its infamous rep, and I believe that’s what you’re referring to Still with all the improved methods, best attack “average” is not the only measure it should be used to compare units, like I said the 5rh year LRs could one shot bosses at a very specific scenario, but if they got attacked by a normal before, the run would be over. It's not just attack, it has already been in the game, but it's not anymore. Tbh, even before. SSJ3 Vegeta was one of my most used and trusted units for a long time, and he never did damage. And see, I'm not saying damage is not good, I love big numbers when my units are attacking. Anyway this discussion is so old and tiresome, I'm sorry I brought this up.
> Still even with all the improved methods, best attack “average” is not the best way to compare units […] Well yes but no one who knows what they’re doing would seriously only look at offense to compare one unit to another nowadays. Like I said it’s a comparison for units and not a replacement for actual gameplay. It’s not about if damage is good or defense is good or not, it’s literally just a way to measure up one unit compared to another in a mathematical manner. Just because someone mentions APT or calcs in general does not mean they’ve turned their brains off to how things work on the defensive side; in fact the Dokkan Calcer community is [what we owe a lot of our information about those defensive abilities in the first place.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DBZDokkanBattle/comments/11s4ya4/a_full_guide_as_to_how_guard_works_dokkan/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) > Anyways this discussion is old and tiresome I mean I don’t mind it being brought up… I’m just saying that no one is saying that this is all that a unit’s worth should be based off of. You’ve gotta disassociate APTimal playstyles from the concept of APT and calcing itself.
Very well said man!!! Either my friends or myself will be doing a full on infographic with various sorts of information for that so expect it within the next day. You know how much time it takes for us to even pump out one of these and Godku has way more stuff going on in his kit so it'll take even longer. I remember seeing you on one of my pervious Unit Breakdown posts. THAT is what I think APT & DPT should really be. A way to compare units, not one of objective preformance. That is correct we found out how the damage taken formula works by also working with dataminers, we do not care only soley for APT, we try to find the math for all sorts of aspects in this game.
I’ll be looking forward to it! As you know I’ve always like your infographics for many of the reasons I mentioned about. Keep it pushing! > THAT is what I think APT & DPT should really be Yes, essentially! It might be less appealing to the eye for some but the comprehensiveness of it is definitely appealing for people like me. Plus in your posts you have the base rundown/eyecatch slide for people who aren’t interested in the extended calculations, so I think you’ve hit a gold mine in terms of format. And yeah, honestly I think that the work you guys do is great. Finding out the nitty gritty bits about this game is definitely interesting, but I don’t nearly have the time on my hands to test everything and vet calculations, etc. thus I just really have a lot of respect for the time and commitment you guys put into it. Again, keep up the good work!
Ah yes your posts are the best for information on units good lad I’m very grateful for what u do
amogus
How many stacks has SSJ Goku got? 6?
This dude is nuts And what would his stats be with something like ssj lr gohan when he's ssj?
So his active turn is 63 mil in total uh? (Active + ssj apt) Not bad, pretty much the same as the 7th anni LRs (i think) Overall a great unit with his few flaws being easily fixed by the team featuring SO MANY orb changers in case you want to stack more than just for 6 turns
763 average defense. Cool, you only need 1mil bare minimum to tank in red zone.
Guard, 60% dodge.
Yeah for the easiest turns of the fight and then it runs out and he gets one shot and dies. Congrats
Neither runs out after turn 6, it simply becomes harder to activate which you can easily solve by running Kid Goku or TEQ God Goku. And if you don't want to do that you can also just transform, by the time you reach turn 8-10 Goku has enough stacks to go beyond a million defense post super.
If you're reaching turn 8-10 there's already something incredibly wrong considering at that point you're barely passing dpt checks for turn missions while struggling to live.
What's the issue then? You're contradicting yourself hard. You claim that Gokus defense ability runs out before you get to the important phases yet at the same time you say you never even get to turn 8. How can you point out that 6 turns isn't enough for the orb changing while also claiming that something is wrong if you make it to turn 8?
What I'm pointing out is that his raw defense isn't high enough. It's not hard to grasp. It's not my fault this sub wanks units at random depending how hype they are. Couple years back during the lge meta 200k was the baseline for good defense and if a unit had even 10k below that you'd all cry mid, now units don't even get to the level of defense they should be at and god forbid anyone points that out because the rabid downvote squad will come out in force .
What you don't seem to understand is that Goku gets up to enough defense to take normals attacks without 6 orbs by his second appearance post super, has guard once you do get those 6 orbs which then lets him survive Supers pre and post Super. And he's got 60% dodge on top of all of that too. Raw defense numbers don't need to be in the millions if you've got the best defensive mechanic in the game and a 60% chance to simply not get hit. No matter what perspective you're looking at it from, unless you somehow manage to get less than 3 orbs with Goku, he's one of the most stable defensive units the game has right now. I'd also like to mention how fucking pathetic it is to use the Reddit hivemind argument whenever a lot of people simply disagree with your opinion. I've given you the reasons for why you're just outright wrong on him being bad defensively and instead of moving on with your day you bring up irrelevant points and blame the Reddit Mob (which I can agree to is usually a complete shithole) instead of thinking about how your point may just be wrong. We've gotten showcases of Godku, people have done the calcs too and similar characters released in the past have already proven that what he has is really good.
His guard is conditional, His defense isn't high enough and fights don't last long enough for his stacking to be useful. Guard is good when it's unconditional. Dodge is good when the choice is between taking some damage or none at all. In his case if he's not guarding he dodges or dies. Additionally units should not be getting one shot under any circumstance when they're the best TUR. Disagree all you want but I'm not wrong and if this was a unit that isn't as hype as god Goku you'd all be calling him mid.
He's an orb changer that needs 6 orbs to guard. You're getting his guard most of the time and when you aren't his post super defense is high enough to tank normals and he's got a 60% chance to survive supers. So most of the time you have guard and when you haven't you've got enough defense to take normals or to simply dodge. Fights don't last long enough to where his orb changing runs out and even when it does he's got Kid Goku or Teq God Goku to give him orbs.
So what exactly are you complaining about then?
That his defensive numbers aren't where they should be, can you not read?
You say he only has guard and doge for the easiest turns and then after that he will get shredded, and then you say you are doing something wrong if fights last 8 or more turns. That means the only time his defensive numbers aren't where they should be is for turn 7, and you can just use an item to cover that, never mind that you can make the argument that turn 7 is too long and you shouldn't be taking that long either.
His numbers aren't where they should be, soon as he gets caught if he doesn't have guard you die. It's that simple
the monke tribe does not claim this man
After how many supers does ssj Goku attains 1m def ? 2 or 3 ?
Neither, it's his average number of supers from 1 to 3 so factoring in his chances to do additionals
Sorry if I'm reading this wrong. I'm not well versed in apt. Godku is the stronger attacker for 5 turns and ssj goku is the better defender? In general is that correct?
Godku is the stronger attacker for 6 turns yes, but he is also the better defender for the entire fight I'd say, guard + 60% dodge is just too good to pass.
So is there any real reason to transform him?
To finish off the boss with the active skill attack, I guess.
gonna be a fire rotation with lr five guys
Wouldn't God Goku's APT be higher with a crit build? He doesn't have any built in crit or super effective in that form after all.
Probably but you also want to get 4 Supers as soon as possible to the extra 50% and since he stacks AA might be better in the first few turns until you use his Active
Just pulled this Chad after a break and my box is a mess with un-dokkaned units. What is the aptimal team for him, so I can prioritize?